@@GeorgeDCowley Both. (Unless, of course, Nintendo releases a surprise Melee mod that adds a crab as an item that can only be grabbed and thrown by Jigglypuff with a green bandana and the name "HBOX", in which case Hungrybox fighting everyone with crabs should be a side event.)
That’s like looking at a 0% unreactable KO tilt and saying ‘just don’t get hit.’ That level of unfairness goes beyond bad MUs. Smash community has a fucked up idea of balance- that “infinite-off-of-a-wrong-guess” shit wouldn’t fly in any other fighting game and for good reason.
Francisco Morales Personally it would be a riskier move because he would be committed to it instead of using it to stall a tiny bit or observe his opponent
Hyrule was a viable stage for a long time, and still should be! It was Link's ONLY good stage; he gets murdered on Dreamland by most of the cast. Now Pikachu/Link and Kirby/Link went from 70:30 to 90:10. Basically, one stage ban made a character almost UNPLAYABLE.
I'm late but nahor, if hyrule was not banned there would be a ton of timeouts and stuff and overall it's a better stage for pika/kirby who are already at the forefront of the meta. Link is a worthy sacrifice.
The best use of the infinite dimensional cape was in Apex 2012 when M2K pulled it out in doubles grand finals as a troll tactic. It was a disqualifiable action, signifying his surrender to the Japanese overlords
@@lepone6811 A) that's not grounds for a ban, as shown in the video B) that's not gonna happen. It hasn't happened so far and a whole dlc character has came out since his release.
@@lepone6811 If you were informed about the subject you would know that they said they did it because their competitive playerbase was small and weren't even that competitive, so they did what the majority wanted in that small community. South Australia T.O.s even said they don't want the character to be banned anywhere.
"things get banned when the meta is overcentralized around it or the only tactic is to use the same tactic" I WISH THAT WERE THE CASE FOR MII's but its not
uh what? that never over centralized the meta, dapuffster was like the only mii main who even really got that alot. and people think because of 1 Move on mii brawler all mii customs are worthy of banning or just the character completely. in fact the subject of mii's fall very much into the banning to early argument. its funny too cause even with small helicoptor kick, mii's still suck
I mean, it's not that hard when your opponents are the ICs. The ICs are fast on the ground, but have practically 0 aerial maneuverability. Staying in the air or on a platform just outside of their range is the ideal place to be. Then from there you just bait approaches and beat them out or sneak your way in when they least expect it.
Ice Climbers' poor mobility covers the not get grabbed function. They're close ranged to the core. So either wall em out or just get rid of Nana and the instant death is gone to a really big disadvantage.
You're focusing too much on that one specific case/sentence when that is not the real point. The general idea is "are there effective counters to this strategy that aren't just using this same strategy?" if yes, then there's no reason to ban it. It being annoying or hard thing to pull off is not relevant, people can just choose not to play the game then, there's no point in trying to turn the game into what you want it to be rather than what it is.
I'm in favour of banning wobbling because a grab that can't be tech'd like in other fighters shouldn't result in you losing 25% of the round. It also makes the game incredibly boring to watch.
Gyrotic What unfair combinations? And alternate specials for Miis don't really count as customs since they are enabled even when customs are turned off.
The Quester well I know but having to create a set before a match is way too long And I don't know combinations since no one uses miis but I hear that's a main complaint
Other characters have customs with unfair combinations. Sonic has an even more annoying spin dash that now jumps over projectiles, villager has a tripping tree which makes his camping game even stronger, ect. Miis are banned because some players think its unfair for any character to have customs. Mii brawler was high tier for awhile because of how good his custom up special was, so people might have some fear of that (You can go really far offstage with it and still recover, which makes it kill significantly earlier than its knockback would suggest). However, using normal Miis at this point is just like using Zelda; either you actually like how the character plays and don't want to use characters that are similar but just superior in nearly every way, or you want the Smash Bros version of Dan Hibiki.
The Quester Inconsistency. When it comes to fighting any other character on the roster, you only need to learn their one move set to learn the matchup. But for all the mii's customs combined, there's 243 possible combinations they have access to, which makes it impossible to learn the matchup.
This video is infinitely more relevant now that the discussion in Ultimate is around Hero being banned. Personally, I'm of the mind that it's a bit too early to decide whether Hero should be banned. And from my experience, I don't think he will be. MSC does a good job talking about counterplay, and I've already seen it happening against Hero. The big things people don't like about Hero are his random crits on smash attacks and his Command Menu. The crits can be mostly avoided using good spacing, like with Icies' chain grabbing, as MSC says. The Command Menu is a bit more difficult, and while I don't know if this strategy is the best or not, I'll describe what I do. In my experience, there are two ways Hero players use the Command Menu: 1) They spam B to use the first (or maybe second) command on the menu, leaving everything to luck, or 2) They take the time to read the commands and use them skillfully. For dealing with the luck spammers, once again, I'd say that good spacing is the solution. Most of the spells aren't much different in range from the Hero's existing moveset, counting his sword slashes and fire/lightning spells. And remember, spammers could just as easily pick Kamikazee and kill themselves. Or Kaclang, and you can punish them for doing so. Or they could just keep spamming it, use up all their magic, and make it much easier for you to predict their moves. (My advice to spammers: Avoid using spells that start with K. Sure, you'll lose Kaboom and Kacrackle Slash, but it's better than losing a stock.) And for those who play skillfully with the spells, this is where MSC's discussion on counterplay comes in handy. I'm a Greninja main, so here's my counterplay to the Command Menu: I either rush them with my high ground speed, or use a projectile like Water Shuriken. Keep in mind that since their eyes are on the menu and not on me, I might just get a free easy punish. Otherwise, these options pressure them into shielding, jumping, or choosing the first command to get out of that menu. If I read a shield, I grab. If I read a jump, I use an aerial. If I think they're gonna Command, I refer to the paragraph above, which often translates to a shield or jump. Sometimes, I'm able to see the name of the spell in time and can even react to it. Again, I just think it's a bit too early to decide on his ban or not. Sure, my counterplay strategies have landed me with a broken shield more often than I think I should, but I'm sure better players than me can avoid that. And yes, I do have a problem with certain specific spells in the menu (for example, Magic Burst being one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game and everything about Thwack), but I don't think they're enough for a ban.
Ok, I will point out that I have heard one argument for banning Hero that I cannot defend, and that is that the Command Menu is locked to the console's language. This means that at international tournaments, the language has to be set to that of the Hero player. This already puts an unfair disadvantage to anyone facing that Hero who cannot read that language, as they cannot immediately react to chosen spells. But even worse, what if a Hero ditto battle must occur, but the two players each speak different languages? Someone is gonna be screwed for that fight.
There's this 3rd party adapter for consoles called XIM, which you plug a keyboard and mouse into it. Mouse input gets converted into an equivalent control stick input. Notably, this allows you to play console FPS's with a mouse and keyboard, which is much more accurate and an all around vastly superior input device for FPS's. Some would claim using it is cheating.
while not necessarily cheating in the sense you are exploiting or breaking the rules, but is is an unfair advantage. unless the game devs intended for such compatibility (like how in-game options allow for console controllers on PC, or motion vs joystick on Wii/U) I wouldnt allow it.
I'm still pretty interested in XIM. I get why people would find it cheating, but holy crap do I enjoy using a mouse vastly more for FPS games. I'm fine with playing Halo with a controller, but so many FPSs out there feel like a disconnected experience when using a controller. It probably doesn't help I got into Titanfall 2 on PC (not having played a PC FPS in a year or so). It's still really odd to me that FPSs on consoles are so common now.
Halo to be fair has had the benefit of being designed on two platforms (or at least the first two games.) I dunno if that has an effect but I do feel like there was design intent for both platforms (especially since Halo was to be a PC game originally and then released on Xbox for it's debut).
huh, didnt even know those existed. if i played console FPS i'd probably use one, trying to play a shooter with a joystick is a fucking nightmare. why don't more consoles just take a page out of nintendo's book and use motion aiming? splatoon was the only shooter i've ever actually had fun playing with a controller because the gyroscope controls were so good, it was almost as accurate as playing with a mouse. the PS4 even has pointer controls in its controller but no games use it for aiming.
veovis Just elaborating for others: The reason why adding a gyroscope to control stick aiming makes it almost as good as mouse aiming is because you can actuate the aiming controls at two different sensitivities in an intuitive way that doesn't clash with itself. The control stick can be relegated to macro aiming, allowing you to turn your character around as needed while the gyroscope is used for micro aiming, allowing you to point in much more specific angles. It completely circumvents the typical sensitivity tradeoff where you balance the ability to look around you (low sensitivity) with the ability to point at what you're looking at. (high sensitivity)
Slick L I didn't even know they were. I do know that they are definitely not a viable option because the circle pad can make certain tech skill more difficult and the button customization is severely limited.
most locals allow you to use whatever but majors tend to ban anything wireless. which is annoying. apparently big house 6 even banned pro controllers that had their batteries taken out and were connected via wire; one of the best players in our region uses pro controller and was forced to use GCC for big house 6.
oh, well that's wonderful. i _only_ use the pro controller and it's the best controller for Shulk. i also hate using the GC controller... well, that's just wonderful.
I’d say the Hero shouldn’t be banned. While, yes, the main gimmick of the Hero is the RPG randomness and isn’t very competitive, it doesn’t really go in favor of the Hero (excluding crit). You have to hope to get the things you need from the Down B, otherwise your opponent has a pretty easy punish. The menu is readable for both parties, too, assuming they read the same language, so, if you’re able to read quick, you can act accordingly. The Hero chews through his Mana, too, so he will have to rely on his very slow and laggy normals to replenish it fast. These are also the reasons why the Hero has a horrible disadvantage state. On top of that, he has a very linear recovery that also eats away at the MP with each use. In regards to the Hero’s critical hit mechanic, however, I believe that should be toned WAY down. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the critical damage doubles damage. That should be toned down to 1.5x instead. Still ludicrous, yes, but it kills way later than now. F Smash should also be toned down in its knock back a little. Maybe have it kill 8 or 10 percent later. Those are my thoughts on the hero. hoes mad
Because apparently proper spacing is now considered a counter in fighting games. . No. no that's wrong. It's just playing the damn game. Countering a chain grab would mean that there would be a way to break it. No competitive fighter should allow any form of 1 hit KO mechanic in it and try to justify it over another mechanic. One hit kills should be banned period because that shot is stupid in a fighting game. It's no longer a fight and it becomes the routine boring campy style fight when you see those characters. You wanna know why I've climbers are still players in the top 20 which apparently don't consider dominant over thousands of players for some reason? Because the few above them have attacks that are chained into one hit kills. Melee is a broken game that can't be patched up like smash 4. Can't believe people are justifying allowing one hit kills in a game off the premise of "don't get hit" well then same can be said about the stages when fighting fox. Why ban the stage when you can simply say "don't get hit" cuz that solves all the problems and apparently is a counter to everything. By this logic nothing should be banned
Jostar Infinity Melee has four stocks, so technically wobbling is more like a 4 hit KO. Also as you said, wobbling isn't the only way to take a stock from someone off of one opening in Melee... Melee isn't even the only popular fighter to have an infinite like this. For example, Marvel vs Capcom is notorious for having plenty of infinite loops and "touch of death" combos
Jostar Infinity I've been saying this shit for years. Im sure the people that argue with "git gud scrub/don't get hit" would probably sing an entirely tune if from now on they lost every single stock to a cheap tactic.
Stormy Bell I've been wobbled by ICs before, Three stocked by 1.1.5 Bayonetta, and destroyed by Melee Foxes Yet here I am, losing to a "cheap" tactic and still saying... git gud
Should probably mention: If wobbling/top-tiers/whatever other cheese really ruins Melee for you, there are plenty of other games that are really fun. I understand that not everyone likes Melee's brutal punishment game, and that's OK; you can just find a different game you like.
6:50 Sakurai did not intend for chaingrabs to be in the game. It's an exploit. Just sayin'. Banworthy IMO. Edit: Wobbling's been banned in lotsa places now. And no, sorry both sides absolutely DO NOT make good points. One mistake leading to an instant 0 - to - death combo that has LITERALLY booted very skilled players out of tournaments and there's proof of it. It was banned not too long from this video's upload date, and GOOD RIDDANCE. Your metagame reasoning doesn't make sense in the context of basic game design / the case for wobbling. Keeping my dislike on the video for that complete trash...
@@ivyeomnky2223 On one hand, I say yes because wavedashing is stupid and a single article where Sakurai allegedly said something about it doesn't prove shit. On the other, it depends, because *it is totally valid to pick and choose which exploit should be in the game.* Besides, don't give me that shit when it takes blatantly no skill to wobble. A basic rhythm = a win of the stock. If it were intentional, it'd be fuckin' horrible game design. Infinivirgin.
Ando Mario's neutral jump nair trades and even beats spin dash, making it a good stuffing option and potent combo starter. ranged characters have an edge against sonic, but nothing's for sure.
Ask any Mario main, that matchup is trash. Yeah, maybe nair works against spindash but it certainly doesn't beat fair. Plus Mario really doesn't have much else against Sonic.
you're right. but then again, isn't that everyones case against him? every character has something that can keep sonic from stopping said character, it just comes down to skills.............
Dalton Davidson On one hand it is ridiculous how quickly she dominated mid skill tournaments, on the other hand it is outrageous how quickly people gave up on countering her.
VoxelFusion she was a super powerful and infuriating character. Part of the problem is she ended stocks so quickly and had so many unnecessarily good tools that it was hard to figure out how to counter her. But I do think we went a little witch hunting crazy
Dalton Davidson Well in the end, Bayonetta has become a respectable character and her players don't get shamed for liking her. I think it blew over pretty well.
It's time the Smash community was honest: There are no rules when it comes to banning stuff. It's a patchwork mess of "Let's not ban it because it's not literally 100% unbeatable", "Let's ban it because it will make us look better to Street Fighter players", and "Let's ban/unban it because the viewers on the stream prefer it this way. Gimme that sweet, sweet ad money, sub money, and and donation money, losers!"
Jacob Hamblin People point to the defensive playstyle and the use of his natural speed to camp. Personally this isn't a problem if you can carefully space yourself to do things like interrupt a spin dash or force them into a corner.
i think it's poor character design. why would you design a character around camping. keep in mind that sonic is the fastest character in the game. Im not saying that he should be banned nor do i think that he is broken.
Jacob Hamblin People hate sonic becsuse of the way top sonics play to win. Sure you can win but 1. it is boring as shit to watch and 2. it's draining having to chase after a character for the entirety of the time alloted. Every single match.
@Ian Smart Just because it's POSSIBLE to do something with a character, doesn't mean the character was designed that way. Sonic CAN camp, but I personally believe he was designed for fast inputs, and close combat, and random mix ups. (keep in mind Sonic is second worst to fight, imo, behind Ness)
Yeah I used to think he should be banned but now I kinda see his weaknesses more. He still can be broken under the right circumstances (acceleratle+ Oomph is stupid) but if you pressure him it makes it a lot harder for him to get good spells. However, I don’t like how he completely invalidates zoners. It’s not broken, but it’s never good when one character completely invalidates others. Edit: crits are still stupid though.
@@Galaxia_EX Still, he has the worst B-Air in the game and an awful frame data in general, much Like Link in that aspect. How to play around those laggy characters but strong swordies? Juggle is a good option, as well as dash dancing, and most important, force him to miss the move and punish acordingly, as well as shielding the moves with more range (Side and neutral B).
Honestly this is the best, highest quality smash channel. I don't even want faster uploads, cause each video is so well made with so much time put into it. Plz. Don't stop.
Wow, you really could do videos like this for a living. All of the original artwork and animations, the sources and most of all the analysis, writing and delivery are perfect. Outstanding quality.
You can still do a dash attack when the dashdance ends by pressing A before the very end of the dash animation, the ones who are the best are little Mac, sonic, fox, meta knight, even yoshi can do it. Just dash, wait for the end of the dash animation, at the same time press A or any direction of the c stick, the timing depends on what characters you are using, how fast the dash is, and how many end frames for the dash attack takes.
Neither was competitive. It kind of is a straight insult to Sakurai's intent of the game when toxic competitive players force casual players out of the scene.
Personally, I think ice climber chain grabs should be banned from play. The reason is that when the outcome of an entire match boils down to preventing or performing a single action. The existence of Ice Climbers forces everyone else to change their play style or lose.
When I get a credit card this is the first person I will subscribe to because of how quality this content is. How you are able to upload consistently, do thorough research, and make a beautiful presentation simply baffles me. Keep doing what you are doing because you are by far one of the best content creators out there
The thing is...Smash was designed to be a party game, not a strict fighting game. That’s why “competitive play” gets so complicated, since it wasn’t originally designed with that in mind.
Daymaster I use to be for legality. But if we allow custom modded controllers, which is what smashbox essentially is. It'll open a whole new can of beans and shift part of the meta into securing the most fully featured custom controller. Who can say the SmashBox is legal but extra buttons on a modded GC controller isn't. As I mentioned, this will lead to a partial meta shift into obtaining fully featured controller to assist in tech skill.
+Info The thing about the SmashBox is that it only has the same number of buttons as the GC Controller. It's literally impossible to add buttons that do anything functional because the only buttons the game is programmed to respond to are the ones on the standard controllers. I don't really see any way other than a turbo button (really only useful for Luigi mains and breaking out of grabs one or two frames faster) for players to improve their controller that much.
Daymaster Not from what I've seen and been told. The SmashBox uses analog to digital mods, which means it can send any digital signal a controller can make at the touch of a button. Also the SmashBox "got rid" of the taunts on Dpad and remapped into movement scalers, hard to explain just watch their video explaining why.
They didn't remove the ability to taunt, they just toggled it on and off with a switch on the side. While it is a macro, it's the only good way to improve the ergonomics of the game. I'd say that we should allow the SmashBox and others like it but nothing with any more macros than necessary to make it a functional controller.
Thank you so much for making a video on this. I think this is so relevant in any competitive scene. Many people criticize Smogon for being ridiculously ban happy, but I think this really shows how competitive communities come to a consensus on controversial strategies.
Thank you so much for making this video. I'm part of the Brawl Minus community and we've spent a lot of time arguing on how to properly ban certain elements of the metagame. But you have managed to cover all of your bases. What should be banned, why it should be banned, whether or not to ban prematurely, stage banning, controller banning, and the pros and cons of both sides. This video has been very insightful.
I play Smash 4 with the 3DS as a controller. Whether I'm playing the 3DS version or I'm playing the WiiU version, I use the 3DS as a controller as I feel more comfortable using it than a pro controller or the WiiU gamepad.
[ Mike4Life ] I honestly see tactics like those unnecessary. I'm sorry, but I do. Although since many people use these tactics, I try to think of ways to get around them, ironically making more tactics.
This video not only shuts down banning hero but also helps show why some stages were prematurely banned. Castle siege, unova, yoshi's story and lylat don't have any tactics that are outright broken so why are they banned? All of the complaints are able to be played around and the stages we have favour campy playstyles making a character like incenaroar unplayable since he has no counterpicks that give him an advantage.
Legalizing smaller stages would make heavies and characters with low kill power way more viable. I'm all for allowing Castle Siege and Warioware. Unova, Yoshi's Story (I'm guessing the Brawl version), and Lylat are also fine, though as counterpicks since some characters are better/worse on those stages.
Stalin ,exe Look up yeet smash utterly unexpected moments 14. The Hero clip in that video is just 1 out of 1000 reason why he needs to be banned PERMANENTLY from tournament
I totally agree with you My Smash Corner. Im glad the developers can fix some of these ridiculous strats and moves with nerfs, such as the Bayo nerf. Although I hated to play against her before the nerf, I never wanted her to be banned from tourneys since other players can create counters against her moves. Awesome video man.
I love how Smash is different from most fighting games. Because Smash is Percentage, you can run, jump, and go anywhere you want, there are so many things that can happen in a match. Theres infinite possibilities. This is why Smash is so fun to watch at tournaments, and traditional fighting games are boring
cellogamer GAMING I understand that this is what makes Snash fun, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that more traditional fighting games are boring, which is not the case.
Perhaps they are to you, but I don't find them boring to watch and so do plenty of people. I think BlazBlue is one of the most exciting games to watch period, even more so than Melee, and I _love_ Melee.
Smash is easier to understand and therefore easier to like from a viewer perspective. I absolutely love watching Guilty Gear but that only happened once I better understood it. And as a much more nuanced game than Smash it takes quite a lot of investment for that to happen.
This comment may sound simple but WOW. This video was GREAT stuff. I loved how thougjt provoking and informative it is and more people need to see this video. Always love when you do these sorts of "Real Talk" type videos MSC. Keep up the great work
Your analysis applies to more or less every competitive game released in the last decade pretty well. I'm not sure if that was your intention, but it was nicely done. Way to go!
Wireless controllers in general are extremely limited as people from the crowd can attempt to interfere with the tournament by syncing their controller while the ones on the stage already are. It's a huge hassal in big tournaments so they tend not to.
For the gamepad it is more likely in case 2 people only play on gamepad. There can be only one gamepad so are the player supposed to not play against each others ? That's why they mostly ban it
I wished you talked more about how something being prematurely banned affects the metagame in that it may never be brought back to competitive play. Esam talked about this and it's really important to consider. Early on, and still now to an extent, people would complain about characters that may not have been very strong and they were given a nerf. No character has ever been "restored" or "unnerfed" so we, as a community, need to really focus on what is banworthy and do alot of research to do so.
I wsnt to see your opinion on Hero, this topic come i light once again but instead of a powerful move, is about RNG and how a match might me deciden by sheer luck
I’m reposting this from another comment that I responded to. I’d say the Hero shouldn’t be banned. While, yes, the main gimmick of the Hero is the RPG randomness and isn’t very competitive, it doesn’t really go in favor of the Hero (excluding crit). You have to hope to get the things you need from the Down B, otherwise your opponent has a pretty easy punish. The menu is readable for both parties, too, assuming they read the same language, so, if you’re able to read quick, you can act accordingly. The Hero chews through his Mana, too, so he will have to rely on his very slow and laggy normals to replenish it fast. These are also the reasons why the Hero has a horrible disadvantage state. On top of that, he has a very linear recovery that also eats away at the MP with each use. In regards to the Hero’s critical hit mechanic, however, I believe that should be toned WAY down. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the critical damage doubles damage. That should be toned down to 1.5x instead. Still ludicrous, yes, but it kills way later than now. F Smash should also be toned down in its knock back a little. Maybe have it kill 8 or 10 percent later. Those are my thoughts on the Hero.
a lot of characters are able to counter bayo if played correctly, i was juste excpecting a reference to that since they decided to ban bayo before finding couters
I find it funny that the Street Fighter V footage that you showed was on the Skies of Honor stage, which is one of the few stages banned during the Capcom Cup this year because its constantly moving background could cause some players to get motion sick
I think this is part of why Umbra is currently banned. Characters such as Cloud (especially Cloud) can just camp out on the widely spaced platforms that spawn at any point of the match. It's not stalling, because almost every character is able to get to those spots to chase Cloud, but put themselves at a huge disadvantage in doing so.
Is Umbra Clock Tower considered ban worthy? I've rarely seen people willing to try it out, even when it was released along side Bayonetta. Back then, most arguments against it were about the visuals being too distracting (like wut?) and the solid platform above that moves above the stage. People also talked about the solid bottom platform with its camping potential, but people were REALLY insistent on the visuals and the top solid platform more than anything. I felt like it was banned prematurely, and now people want to ban Lylat & Duckhunt (despite the overall implications of doing so).
Shirma Akayaku Lylat has a lot of janky shit regarding recovering where people still have not found out how it exactly works. Dunt Hunt has the overall visual that is different compared to other stages and the stage is a huge disadvantage to little mac. On Umbra Clock Tower there is a point where you can literally go under the stage and camp for 2 minutes by jumping from platform to platform
gameandflogchannel When it comes to Lylat, I'm fine with it being banned, but I think Duck Hunt is fine since it's the only defensive stage (and Battlefield too since it has large blastzones). Little Mac or Ganondorf players can ban Duck Hunt during a set (it's why we have starters, counterpicks and bans). As for Umbra Clock Tower, I've seen rarely any tourneys run it back then, so the "camping" thing hasn't really been proven (until someone actually tries to do it and it proves to broken). We'll never see this though since UCT was banned early on (because of the visuals and the top solid platform).
I can't actually focus on UCT, I tried playing it a few times and I would actually lose track of myself and the opponent. I think the visuals and solid platform are both very valid reasons to ban the stage, especially because even horizontal kill moves tend to send somewhat upwards, which means that platform could ruin kills (even if they don't tech.)
RacgiMan I can see where you're coming from with the visuals being distracting. Back then, that happened to me too, but after playing a some games on it, the visuals don't bother me anymore. So at this point, the visuals being ban worthy is not something I agree with entirely. As for the solid platform ruining kills, it could happen, but those chances are very few in between. This and everything said up to this point is merely ideas and conjecture since tourneys barely run the stage, if at all. The reasons you stated are valid concerns, but until it's actually been put to the test (over the course of some time), banning just because of those reasons alone without testing them thoroughly is just wrong imo.
mm, I played on it a bit for some online tourneys, I noticed that it seemed really bad for slow characters unless they tried to camp somewhere (like under the solid platform) Either way, it doesn't look like we'll unban it, so I guess it doesn't matter. I can't say I disagree with it, but I wouldn't mind looking into it again.
Throwing a crab should be a ban-able offence
In-game, in real life, or both?
YES
@@GeorgeDCowley Both. (Unless, of course, Nintendo releases a surprise Melee mod that adds a crab as an item that can only be grabbed and thrown by Jigglypuff with a green bandana and the name "HBOX", in which case Hungrybox fighting everyone with crabs should be a side event.)
*Hbox intensifies*
Well Nintendo probably wants us dead now.
"Just don't get grabbed"...bruh...
Easier said than done;
Melee Marth...
Brawl Ice Climbers...
Smash 4 Bowser...
Like you said: *BRUH*
lmao just build a wall
"just dodge the spear"
That’s like looking at a 0% unreactable KO tilt and saying ‘just don’t get hit.’ That level of unfairness goes beyond bad MUs. Smash community has a fucked up idea of balance- that “infinite-off-of-a-wrong-guess” shit wouldn’t fly in any other fighting game and for good reason.
It was the boiled down of what you shouldn't do lol
"I hate fighting campy Sonic's, it's bloody annoying"
You and me, My Smash Corner, are very alike
And LOTS of other people as well.
hypergrad22 What if sonic can't sheild cancel his spin charge? How many tiers will he fall?
Junaka Why did they put that on him in the first place.
Junaka I.. i would just like to hear your thoughts.. i guess.
Francisco Morales Personally it would be a riskier move because he would be committed to it instead of using it to stall a tiny bit or observe his opponent
Good old Smash 64, having dreamland as the only viable stage
Hyrule was a viable stage for a long time, and still should be! It was Link's ONLY good stage; he gets murdered on Dreamland by most of the cast. Now Pikachu/Link and Kirby/Link went from 70:30 to 90:10. Basically, one stage ban made a character almost UNPLAYABLE.
I'm late but
nahor, if hyrule was not banned there would be a ton of timeouts and stuff and overall it's a better stage for pika/kirby who are already at the forefront of the meta. Link is a worthy sacrifice.
Dreamland should be banned too so no one ever has to play Smash 64 competitively ever
Stage Hazard, dude. Clearly too broken for meta to deal with
@@NotAGoodUsername360 Then Melee would be the only good Smash game left.
@@NotAGoodUsername360 What's wrong with competitive 64? Also the stage hazard is so minor it doesn't matter
I've never seen that Meta Knight cape thing until now and I've been playing Smash forever!
Skides then you obviously were playing on a casual level during Brawl
Dessaw youre right, I never played Brawl competitively. I played PM during the late Brawl years
AnimefanRex I've been playing Smash for about 10 years and I got Brawl at release
The best use of the infinite dimensional cape was in Apex 2012 when M2K pulled it out in doubles grand finals as a troll tactic. It was a disqualifiable action, signifying his surrender to the Japanese overlords
filthy casual
ban every character except the miis
I agree
finally someone gets it
ban tr4sh
same
Fop Neus ban melee
I bet this showed up on my feed because of the Hero controversy bruh
This serves as further proof that hero should remain legal, as it fits none of these criteria
Tbh, I thought this video was about Hero until I saw the upload date lmfao
@@lepone6811
Did you even watch this video lol
@@lepone6811
A) that's not grounds for a ban, as shown in the video
B) that's not gonna happen. It hasn't happened so far and a whole dlc character has came out since his release.
@@lepone6811
If you were informed about the subject you would know that they said they did it because their competitive playerbase was small and weren't even that competitive, so they did what the majority wanted in that small community.
South Australia T.O.s even said they don't want the character to be banned anywhere.
"things get banned when the meta is overcentralized around it or the only tactic is to use the same tactic"
I WISH THAT WERE THE CASE FOR MII's but its not
ZeoLightning Sorry, but small mii with helecopter kick would like to have a word with u.
uh what? that never over centralized the meta, dapuffster was like the only mii main who even really got that alot. and people think because of 1 Move on mii brawler all mii customs are worthy of banning or just the character completely. in fact the subject of mii's fall very much into the banning to early argument. its funny too cause even with small helicoptor kick, mii's still suck
***** No its actually op. Look up Esam's video "The REAL best character in Smash4.
you can still fight around them you just have to play safe
lmao your trolling me, you cant be serious
"Just don't get grabbed" Like that won't ever happen in a match
I mean, it's not that hard when your opponents are the ICs. The ICs are fast on the ground, but have practically 0 aerial maneuverability. Staying in the air or on a platform just outside of their range is the ideal place to be. Then from there you just bait approaches and beat them out or sneak your way in when they least expect it.
Ice Climbers' poor mobility covers the not get grabbed function. They're close ranged to the core. So either wall em out or just get rid of Nana and the instant death is gone to a really big disadvantage.
Culted Ever seen hax money play vs nintendude? Kappa
This argument is null, I don't even play Melee *BiggerKappa
You're focusing too much on that one specific case/sentence when that is not the real point. The general idea is "are there effective counters to this strategy that aren't just using this same strategy?" if yes, then there's no reason to ban it. It being annoying or hard thing to pull off is not relevant, people can just choose not to play the game then, there's no point in trying to turn the game into what you want it to be rather than what it is.
Best thumbnail ever. A+ to whoever drew it.
I'm in favour of banning wobbling because a grab that can't be tech'd like in other fighters shouldn't result in you losing 25% of the round. It also makes the game incredibly boring to watch.
Until IC's start suddenly winning a bunch just off of wobbling, I don't really see a reason why it should be banned.
He clearly has,n heard of an Otg
If Wobbling is so bad, then why do no Ice Climbers place consistently high at tournments?
Because the rest of their kit is shit. The mere fact that they are even somewhat relevant is all thanks to that single bullshit mechanic.
Dom The Elegy I still fail to see how it's a problem if it's not affecting the metagame at all.
Guest Size Mii with all customs available don't fit the crateria of ban worthy. Come at mii bruh!
You said it ^^
Dapuffster, Chibo and BigLord are one of the best miis players.
A good player? What would that be?
They have some great results with them
Amin Arslanov d'awwww man, I'm flattered
Except for the people who think that customs should be banned for Miis. They have literally no arguments.
The Quester other than the fact it takes longer to setup, unfair combinations, customs are already banned.
Gyrotic What unfair combinations? And alternate specials for Miis don't really count as customs since they are enabled even when customs are turned off.
The Quester well I know but having to create a set before a match is way too long
And I don't know combinations since no one uses miis but I hear that's a main complaint
Other characters have customs with unfair combinations. Sonic has an even more annoying spin dash that now jumps over projectiles, villager has a tripping tree which makes his camping game even stronger, ect.
Miis are banned because some players think its unfair for any character to have customs. Mii brawler was high tier for awhile because of how good his custom up special was, so people might have some fear of that (You can go really far offstage with it and still recover, which makes it kill significantly earlier than its knockback would suggest). However, using normal Miis at this point is just like using Zelda; either you actually like how the character plays and don't want to use characters that are similar but just superior in nearly every way, or you want the Smash Bros version of Dan Hibiki.
The Quester
Inconsistency. When it comes to fighting any other character on the roster, you only need to learn their one move set to learn the matchup. But for all the mii's customs combined, there's 243 possible combinations they have access to, which makes it impossible to learn the matchup.
[Insert outdated Bayonneta being ban joke here]
Canned Cereal [Insert Learn The Matchup Shit]
Canned Cereal [Insert passive aggressive comment about the patch and how she's still OP and so does not belong in an E10+ game]
[Insert nerf Greninja joke]
Canned Cereal (insert lenny face)
(Insert Ness is Sans cancer)
This video is infinitely more relevant now that the discussion in Ultimate is around Hero being banned.
Personally, I'm of the mind that it's a bit too early to decide whether Hero should be banned. And from my experience, I don't think he will be. MSC does a good job talking about counterplay, and I've already seen it happening against Hero.
The big things people don't like about Hero are his random crits on smash attacks and his Command Menu. The crits can be mostly avoided using good spacing, like with Icies' chain grabbing, as MSC says. The Command Menu is a bit more difficult, and while I don't know if this strategy is the best or not, I'll describe what I do.
In my experience, there are two ways Hero players use the Command Menu:
1) They spam B to use the first (or maybe second) command on the menu, leaving everything to luck, or
2) They take the time to read the commands and use them skillfully.
For dealing with the luck spammers, once again, I'd say that good spacing is the solution. Most of the spells aren't much different in range from the Hero's existing moveset, counting his sword slashes and fire/lightning spells. And remember, spammers could just as easily pick Kamikazee and kill themselves. Or Kaclang, and you can punish them for doing so. Or they could just keep spamming it, use up all their magic, and make it much easier for you to predict their moves. (My advice to spammers: Avoid using spells that start with K. Sure, you'll lose Kaboom and Kacrackle Slash, but it's better than losing a stock.)
And for those who play skillfully with the spells, this is where MSC's discussion on counterplay comes in handy. I'm a Greninja main, so here's my counterplay to the Command Menu: I either rush them with my high ground speed, or use a projectile like Water Shuriken. Keep in mind that since their eyes are on the menu and not on me, I might just get a free easy punish. Otherwise, these options pressure them into shielding, jumping, or choosing the first command to get out of that menu. If I read a shield, I grab. If I read a jump, I use an aerial. If I think they're gonna Command, I refer to the paragraph above, which often translates to a shield or jump. Sometimes, I'm able to see the name of the spell in time and can even react to it.
Again, I just think it's a bit too early to decide on his ban or not. Sure, my counterplay strategies have landed me with a broken shield more often than I think I should, but I'm sure better players than me can avoid that. And yes, I do have a problem with certain specific spells in the menu (for example, Magic Burst being one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game and everything about Thwack), but I don't think they're enough for a ban.
Ok, I will point out that I have heard one argument for banning Hero that I cannot defend, and that is that the Command Menu is locked to the console's language. This means that at international tournaments, the language has to be set to that of the Hero player. This already puts an unfair disadvantage to anyone facing that Hero who cannot read that language, as they cannot immediately react to chosen spells. But even worse, what if a Hero ditto battle must occur, but the two players each speak different languages? Someone is gonna be screwed for that fight.
We have a Japanese player who plays hero, holy shit it’s awful hopefully they add icons for the spells in the next update.
There's this 3rd party adapter for consoles called XIM, which you plug a keyboard and mouse into it. Mouse input gets converted into an equivalent control stick input. Notably, this allows you to play console FPS's with a mouse and keyboard, which is much more accurate and an all around vastly superior input device for FPS's.
Some would claim using it is cheating.
while not necessarily cheating in the sense you are exploiting or breaking the rules, but is is an unfair advantage. unless the game devs intended for such compatibility (like how in-game options allow for console controllers on PC, or motion vs joystick on Wii/U) I wouldnt allow it.
I'm still pretty interested in XIM. I get why people would find it cheating, but holy crap do I enjoy using a mouse vastly more for FPS games. I'm fine with playing Halo with a controller, but so many FPSs out there feel like a disconnected experience when using a controller. It probably doesn't help I got into Titanfall 2 on PC (not having played a PC FPS in a year or so). It's still really odd to me that FPSs on consoles are so common now.
Halo to be fair has had the benefit of being designed on two platforms (or at least the first two games.) I dunno if that has an effect but I do feel like there was design intent for both platforms (especially since Halo was to be a PC game originally and then released on Xbox for it's debut).
huh, didnt even know those existed. if i played console FPS i'd probably use one, trying to play a shooter with a joystick is a fucking nightmare.
why don't more consoles just take a page out of nintendo's book and use motion aiming? splatoon was the only shooter i've ever actually had fun playing with a controller because the gyroscope controls were so good, it was almost as accurate as playing with a mouse. the PS4 even has pointer controls in its controller but no games use it for aiming.
veovis
Just elaborating for others:
The reason why adding a gyroscope to control stick aiming makes it almost as good as mouse aiming is because you can actuate the aiming controls at two different sensitivities in an intuitive way that doesn't clash with itself. The control stick can be relegated to macro aiming, allowing you to turn your character around as needed while the gyroscope is used for micro aiming, allowing you to point in much more specific angles.
It completely circumvents the typical sensitivity tradeoff where you balance the ability to look around you (low sensitivity) with the ability to point at what you're looking at. (high sensitivity)
LEGALIZE 3DS FOR CONTROLLERS
King Tandy why are they banned in the first place?
Wireless connections can "cause problems". It's stupid.
Slick L I didn't even know they were. I do know that they are definitely not a viable option because the circle pad can make certain tech skill more difficult and the button customization is severely limited.
most locals allow you to use whatever but majors tend to ban anything wireless. which is annoying. apparently big house 6 even banned pro controllers that had their batteries taken out and were connected via wire; one of the best players in our region uses pro controller and was forced to use GCC for big house 6.
oh, well that's wonderful. i _only_ use the pro controller and it's the best controller for Shulk. i also hate using the GC controller... well, that's just wonderful.
Ban the gamecube controller because everyone uses it m8
That's stupid.
That's not meta/in-game!
Better yet, ban everything with 2 joysticks
Ban everything except DK bongos!
Lushie yes, but that’s just preference of top players, it’s slightly better, so people used it, making for OP techniques using it
This video is nice and digestible.
I think the video is delicious
It's also easy and comfortable to watch.
Thank you, Applez.
um
But its *RAW.*
4:56 Wobbling's now banned from Smash Tournaments
With Hero out in smash ultimate this video will really help some people take an educated position on whether or not to ban Hero
I’d say the Hero shouldn’t be banned. While, yes, the main gimmick of the Hero is the RPG randomness and isn’t very competitive, it doesn’t really go in favor of the Hero (excluding crit). You have to hope to get the things you need from the Down B, otherwise your opponent has a pretty easy punish. The menu is readable for both parties, too, assuming they read the same language, so, if you’re able to read quick, you can act accordingly. The Hero chews through his Mana, too, so he will have to rely on his very slow and laggy normals to replenish it fast. These are also the reasons why the Hero has a horrible disadvantage state. On top of that, he has a very linear recovery that also eats away at the MP with each use. In regards to the Hero’s critical hit mechanic, however, I believe that should be toned WAY down. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the critical damage doubles damage. That should be toned down to 1.5x instead. Still ludicrous, yes, but it kills way later than now. F Smash should also be toned down in its knock back a little. Maybe have it kill 8 or 10 percent later.
Those are my thoughts on the hero.
hoes mad
"just don't get grabbed" ok then don't get mad at me if I camp you with lasers. I don't wanna get grabbed. Don't get hit by my lasers.
Nobody wants to ban lasers, right?
Because apparently proper spacing is now considered a counter in fighting games. . No. no that's wrong. It's just playing the damn game. Countering a chain grab would mean that there would be a way to break it. No competitive fighter should allow any form of 1 hit KO mechanic in it and try to justify it over another mechanic. One hit kills should be banned period because that shot is stupid in a fighting game. It's no longer a fight and it becomes the routine boring campy style fight when you see those characters. You wanna know why I've climbers are still players in the top 20 which apparently don't consider dominant over thousands of players for some reason? Because the few above them have attacks that are chained into one hit kills. Melee is a broken game that can't be patched up like smash 4. Can't believe people are justifying allowing one hit kills in a game off the premise of "don't get hit" well then same can be said about the stages when fighting fox. Why ban the stage when you can simply say "don't get hit" cuz that solves all the problems and apparently is a counter to everything. By this logic nothing should be banned
Jostar Infinity Melee has four stocks, so technically wobbling is more like a 4 hit KO. Also as you said, wobbling isn't the only way to take a stock from someone off of one opening in Melee...
Melee isn't even the only popular fighter to have an infinite like this. For example, Marvel vs Capcom is notorious for having plenty of infinite loops and "touch of death" combos
Without the wobble or threat of wobble ICs are trash.
Jostar Infinity
I've been saying this shit for years.
Im sure the people that argue with "git gud scrub/don't get hit" would probably sing an entirely tune if from now on they lost every single stock to a cheap tactic.
Stormy Bell I've been wobbled by ICs before, Three stocked by 1.1.5 Bayonetta, and destroyed by Melee Foxes
Yet here I am, losing to a "cheap" tactic and still saying...
git gud
Should probably mention: If wobbling/top-tiers/whatever other cheese really ruins Melee for you, there are plenty of other games that are really fun. I understand that not everyone likes Melee's brutal punishment game, and that's OK; you can just find a different game you like.
6:50 Sakurai did not intend for chaingrabs to be in the game. It's an exploit.
Just sayin'.
Banworthy IMO.
Edit: Wobbling's been banned in lotsa places now. And no, sorry both sides absolutely DO NOT make good points. One mistake leading to an instant 0 - to - death combo that has LITERALLY booted very skilled players out of tournaments and there's proof of it. It was banned not too long from this video's upload date, and GOOD RIDDANCE. Your metagame reasoning doesn't make sense in the context of basic game design / the case for wobbling.
Keeping my dislike on the video for that complete trash...
So is Wavedashing, you want that banned?
Ivyeo Mnky But do you get to take a stock every time you wavedash?
@@ivyeomnky2223 that was intended
@@ivyeomnky2223 On one hand, I say yes because wavedashing is stupid and a single article where Sakurai allegedly said something about it doesn't prove shit.
On the other, it depends, because *it is totally valid to pick and choose which exploit should be in the game.*
Besides, don't give me that shit when it takes blatantly no skill to wobble. A basic rhythm = a win of the stock. If it were intentional, it'd be fuckin' horrible game design.
Infinivirgin.
Make a vid on how to beat campy sonics!
choose a character with a lasting and high priority hit-box...like Cloud or Mario.
Mario?! Sonic is Mario's worst matchup lol you need range to beat Sonics
Ando Mario's neutral jump nair trades and even beats spin dash, making it a good stuffing option and potent combo starter. ranged characters have an edge against sonic, but nothing's for sure.
Ask any Mario main, that matchup is trash. Yeah, maybe nair works against spindash but it certainly doesn't beat fair. Plus Mario really doesn't have much else against Sonic.
you're right. but then again, isn't that everyones case against him? every character has something that can keep sonic from stopping said character, it just comes down to skills.............
I wish you would've released tho in the Bayo days. I might have realized how silly it was for me to be demanding a Bayo ban within a month
Dalton Davidson In that case, people were shifting towards bayo, seeing that as the only counter. So that would constitute a ban.
VoxelFusion well it was absolutely over centralized, but not enough time had passed. It was a very short time that she had that complete dominance
Dalton Davidson On one hand it is ridiculous how quickly she dominated mid skill tournaments, on the other hand it is outrageous how quickly people gave up on countering her.
VoxelFusion she was a super powerful and infuriating character. Part of the problem is she ended stocks so quickly and had so many unnecessarily good tools that it was hard to figure out how to counter her. But I do think we went a little witch hunting crazy
Dalton Davidson Well in the end, Bayonetta has become a respectable character and her players don't get shamed for liking her. I think it blew over pretty well.
It's time the Smash community was honest: There are no rules when it comes to banning stuff. It's a patchwork mess of "Let's not ban it because it's not literally 100% unbeatable", "Let's ban it because it will make us look better to Street Fighter players", and "Let's ban/unban it because the viewers on the stream prefer it this way. Gimme that sweet, sweet ad money, sub money, and and donation money, losers!"
what was this comment specifically aimed at lmao
wtf
God damn it, does everyone hate Sonic? I'm a relatively aggressive one, but it's not Sonic's fault that you're too slow
Jacob Hamblin People point to the defensive playstyle and the use of his natural speed to camp. Personally this isn't a problem if you can carefully space yourself to do things like interrupt a spin dash or force them into a corner.
i think it's poor character design. why would you design a character around camping. keep in mind that sonic is the fastest character in the game. Im not saying that he should be banned nor do i think that he is broken.
Jacob Hamblin you mean... YOUR TO SLOW! *To be read in the annoying sonic voice*
Jacob Hamblin People hate sonic becsuse of the way top sonics play to win. Sure you can win but 1. it is boring as shit to watch and 2. it's draining having to chase after a character for the entirety of the time alloted. Every single match.
@Ian Smart
Just because it's POSSIBLE to do something with a character, doesn't mean the character was designed that way.
Sonic CAN camp, but I personally believe he was designed for fast inputs, and close combat, and random mix ups.
(keep in mind Sonic is second worst to fight, imo, behind Ness)
Conclusion, Hero isn't ban worthy for now
Yeah I used to think he should be banned but now I kinda see his weaknesses more. He still can be broken under the right circumstances (acceleratle+ Oomph is stupid) but if you pressure him it makes it a lot harder for him to get good spells. However, I don’t like how he completely invalidates zoners. It’s not broken, but it’s never good when one character completely invalidates others.
Edit: crits are still stupid though.
@@Galaxia_EX Still, he has the worst B-Air in the game and an awful frame data in general, much Like Link in that aspect. How to play around those laggy characters but strong swordies? Juggle is a good option, as well as dash dancing, and most important, force him to miss the move and punish acordingly, as well as shielding the moves with more range (Side and neutral B).
Love your information charts and visuals.
Even the way you simply displayed how many stages are legal in each title was nicely done.
This was actually really helpful and great!
If you just saw this
Well you saw this
Baltymoreswag todokete
You're not wrong....
Same tbh
Baltymoreswag You right
Chips1144 what happens if I don't see it
6:27 literally, that's not a counter to the chain grab, careful spacing is something you could apply to counter every technique in the game
Honestly this is the best, highest quality smash channel. I don't even want faster uploads, cause each video is so well made with so much time put into it. Plz. Don't stop.
This is definitely interesting to learn about bans.
Interesting analysis MSC.
One of my favorite videos from you. Keep up the good work, especially in this "MSC special" series.
DID ANYONE JUST SEE M2K'S RUN AT UGC?!?!!
That was crazyyy, I'm so sad he didn't pull off the win against Armada
Phillip Marakowitz-Svigals 2017: The Return of the King.
TheTintedHalo Hell yeah dude! Sucks that he lost to Armada though.
TheTintedHalo Funny you mentioned that, my friend was talking about how Peach should be banned for the possibilities of stitch faces and bombs lolol.
He played so well and then it ended with a stitchface...
Wow, you really could do videos like this for a living. All of the original artwork and animations, the sources and most of all the analysis, writing and delivery are perfect. Outstanding quality.
Can we take a moment to just admire judge Kirby?
You can still do a dash attack when the dashdance ends by pressing A before the very end of the dash animation, the ones who are the best are little Mac, sonic, fox, meta knight, even yoshi can do it. Just dash, wait for the end of the dash animation, at the same time press A or any direction of the c stick, the timing depends on what characters you are using, how fast the dash is, and how many end frames for the dash attack takes.
How yall feel bout Steve and his new tech
Ever since the tier list video I get super hyped to see your uploads appear in my subs folder
Great video, as always you explained it very well :D
Hey it's you
Why is this video so easy to watch, reaches the point and gives many exemples. Why is this video great.
"What the game intended"
Fairly certain a practically infinite grab was NOT intended.
Neither was competitive. It kind of is a straight insult to Sakurai's intent of the game when toxic competitive players force casual players out of the scene.
I cant imagine how long this video must have taken to be finished
i friggin love this channel
3:33 "As long as is heart desires"
-My Smash Corner, December 4, 2016
Just ask D1
BANNED!
Just wanted to say that. Meta Knights infinite dimensional cape, while OP, looks really badass.
Personally, I think ice climber chain grabs should be banned from play.
The reason is that when the outcome of an entire match boils down to preventing or performing a single action. The existence of Ice Climbers forces everyone else to change their play style or lose.
When I get a credit card this is the first person I will subscribe to because of how quality this content is. How you are able to upload consistently, do thorough research, and make a beautiful presentation simply baffles me. Keep doing what you are doing because you are by far one of the best content creators out there
you mean subbing on twitch?
Gianluciniho no Patreon
His last 2 videos were 1 year ago ;c
I'd just like to mention that I'm like 100% grateful Melee didn't have online stuff. Let's just say...
*Foxes everywhere.*
How would you like that?
and then netplay happened
Melee does have online now, and its fillled with falcos, but im not complaining
also *Ice Grabbers everywhere*
the thumbnail is so cute
The thing is...Smash was designed to be a party game, not a strict fighting game. That’s why “competitive play” gets so complicated, since it wasn’t originally designed with that in mind.
So what about the SmashBox? Should that be banned or not?
Absolutely not. Nobody in their right mind would try and tell a Street Fighter player they have to fight on a DualShock.
Daymaster I use to be for legality. But if we allow custom modded controllers, which is what smashbox essentially is. It'll open a whole new can of beans and shift part of the meta into securing the most fully featured custom controller. Who can say the SmashBox is legal but extra buttons on a modded GC controller isn't. As I mentioned, this will lead to a partial meta shift into obtaining fully featured controller to assist in tech skill.
+Info The thing about the SmashBox is that it only has the same number of buttons as the GC Controller. It's literally impossible to add buttons that do anything functional because the only buttons the game is programmed to respond to are the ones on the standard controllers. I don't really see any way other than a turbo button (really only useful for Luigi mains and breaking out of grabs one or two frames faster) for players to improve their controller that much.
Daymaster Not from what I've seen and been told. The SmashBox uses analog to digital mods, which means it can send any digital signal a controller can make at the touch of a button. Also the SmashBox "got rid" of the taunts on Dpad and remapped into movement scalers, hard to explain just watch their video explaining why.
They didn't remove the ability to taunt, they just toggled it on and off with a switch on the side. While it is a macro, it's the only good way to improve the ergonomics of the game. I'd say that we should allow the SmashBox and others like it but nothing with any more macros than necessary to make it a functional controller.
Love your videos. Always so informative.
Thank you so much for making a video on this. I think this is so relevant in any competitive scene. Many people criticize Smogon for being ridiculously ban happy, but I think this really shows how competitive communities come to a consensus on controversial strategies.
5:50 - 6:00
Mother.
Fucking.
Customs.
Thank you so much for making this video. I'm part of the Brawl Minus community and we've spent a lot of time arguing on how to properly ban certain elements of the metagame. But you have managed to cover all of your bases. What should be banned, why it should be banned, whether or not to ban prematurely, stage banning, controller banning, and the pros and cons of both sides. This video has been very insightful.
I play Smash 4 with the 3DS as a controller. Whether I'm playing the 3DS version or I'm playing the WiiU version, I use the 3DS as a controller as I feel more comfortable using it than a pro controller or the WiiU gamepad.
New 3DS?
Clouds Zenbrk The original 3DS didn't have a C-stick, though.
Clouds Zenbrk Well, it's definitely optimal to use the c-stick in many situations.
Clouds Zenbrk Yeah, but never being able to do retreating fairs or advancing bairs is annoying. And perfect pivot tilts.
[ Mike4Life ] I honestly see tactics like those unnecessary. I'm sorry, but I do. Although since many people use these tactics, I try to think of ways to get around them, ironically making more tactics.
I will love you forever and ever for releasing this video. Every time someone asks why wobbling isn't banned, I'll show em' this video.
This video not only shuts down banning hero but also helps show why some stages were prematurely banned. Castle siege, unova, yoshi's story and lylat don't have any tactics that are outright broken so why are they banned? All of the complaints are able to be played around and the stages we have favour campy playstyles making a character like incenaroar unplayable since he has no counterpicks that give him an advantage.
Legalizing smaller stages would make heavies and characters with low kill power way more viable. I'm all for allowing Castle Siege and Warioware. Unova, Yoshi's Story (I'm guessing the Brawl version), and Lylat are also fine, though as counterpicks since some characters are better/worse on those stages.
Stalin ,exe Look up yeet smash utterly unexpected moments 14. The Hero clip in that video is just 1 out of 1000 reason why he needs to be banned PERMANENTLY from tournament
Watched the video and no, he should not be banned for that
That Greninja player was getting way to eager, it's his fault
0:25 I have the controller on the bottom left.
Here after the Steve/ Kazuya debates
I totally agree with you My Smash Corner. Im glad the developers can fix some of these ridiculous strats and moves with nerfs, such as the Bayo nerf. Although I hated to play against her before the nerf, I never wanted her to be banned from tourneys since other players can create counters against her moves. Awesome video man.
I love how Smash is different from most fighting games. Because Smash is Percentage, you can run, jump, and go anywhere you want, there are so many things that can happen in a match. Theres infinite possibilities. This is why Smash is so fun to watch at tournaments, and traditional fighting games are boring
cellogamer GAMING I understand that this is what makes Snash fun, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that more traditional fighting games are boring, which is not the case.
Black Pants They are boring to watch
Perhaps they are to you, but I don't find them boring to watch and so do plenty of people. I think BlazBlue is one of the most exciting games to watch period, even more so than Melee, and I _love_ Melee.
Smash is easier to understand and therefore easier to like from a viewer perspective. I absolutely love watching Guilty Gear but that only happened once I better understood it. And as a much more nuanced game than Smash it takes quite a lot of investment for that to happen.
Buddy, have you seen professional Guilty Gear?
0:37
Give yourself three stocks and give her two!
What's your opinion on all Mii specials being unlocked?
Alexander M I know you weren't asking me, but in my opinion, a medium everything min should have all customs enabled (medium refers to size.)
Ron Gneezy Agreed. No reason they can't have all their specials if they're guest miis, IMO.
Alexander M I agree on a problem with small and large miis, but medium ones are perfectly fine in my book.
This video was a lot more entertaining than I thought it would be! Great content as always. :)
I really like the thumbnail
7:14 this aged well
I thought the only rules were final destination no items fox only
This comment may sound simple but WOW. This video was GREAT stuff. I loved how thougjt provoking and informative it is and more people need to see this video. Always love when you do these sorts of "Real Talk" type videos MSC. Keep up the great work
I just want to know how you get banned from Onlia via For Glory Hell/Smash Hell
Your analysis applies to more or less every competitive game released in the last decade pretty well. I'm not sure if that was your intention, but it was nicely done. Way to go!
then why do they ban controllers, like the 3ds and gamepad?
Galaxian Gamer Annoying sync and desyncs in tournaments
JetstreamxTheReal are there 3ds tournaments? Cuz I'm only good on that
Well, the good thing about using a gamepad is that, when it's banned, you can use a pro controller without much trouble! :P
Wireless controllers in general are extremely limited as people from the crowd can attempt to interfere with the tournament by syncing their controller while the ones on the stage already are.
It's a huge hassal in big tournaments so they tend not to.
For the gamepad it is more likely in case 2 people only play on gamepad. There can be only one gamepad so are the player supposed to not play against each others ? That's why they mostly ban it
I wished you talked more about how something being prematurely banned affects the metagame in that it may never be brought back to competitive play. Esam talked about this and it's really important to consider. Early on, and still now to an extent, people would complain about characters that may not have been very strong and they were given a nerf. No character has ever been "restored" or "unnerfed" so we, as a community, need to really focus on what is banworthy and do alot of research to do so.
Lets go this videos relevant again
The thumbnail is adorable further proving Kirby is basically the cutest Nintendo character
I wsnt to see your opinion on Hero, this topic come i light once again but instead of a powerful move, is about RNG and how a match might me deciden by sheer luck
I’m reposting this from another comment that I responded to.
I’d say the Hero shouldn’t be banned. While, yes, the main gimmick of the Hero is the RPG randomness and isn’t very competitive, it doesn’t really go in favor of the Hero (excluding crit). You have to hope to get the things you need from the Down B, otherwise your opponent has a pretty easy punish. The menu is readable for both parties, too, assuming they read the same language, so, if you’re able to read quick, you can act accordingly. The Hero chews through his Mana, too, so he will have to rely on his very slow and laggy normals to replenish it fast. These are also the reasons why the Hero has a horrible disadvantage state. On top of that, he has a very linear recovery that also eats away at the MP with each use. In regards to the Hero’s critical hit mechanic, however, I believe that should be toned WAY down. Correct me if I’m wrong, but the critical damage doubles damage. That should be toned down to 1.5x instead. Still ludicrous, yes, but it kills way later than now. F Smash should also be toned down in its knock back a little. Maybe have it kill 8 or 10 percent later.
Those are my thoughts on the Hero.
When a video is barly over ten minutes but is so packed with information it do sent matter
Welp. Who felt like giving this a revist after Super Smash Con?
Very insightful video again, thanks!
Shoutout to Sophia Feesh, the Kirby in the thumbnail is cute af
I know you don't make Melee and brawl tech videos but PLEASE show us how to freeze jiggly puff in the air and the infinite grab with the ice climbers!
Mr.PenguinPants I think up throw with nana while popo side-b
Mr.PenguinPants for freezing
Mr.PenguinPants and infinite with ice climbers is to grab with popo and down tilt with nana and pummel with popo with a very precise timing pattern
Just search it up on TH-cam; folks have vids of that for decades now
If you wanna learn melee, just watch SSBM Tutorials. I know for a fact they have a video on Rising Pound, and I'm sure they have one for wobbling too.
This video is applicable to ANY metagame. Keep these up, sir!
i expeted a reference to prepatch bayo ban
AnimefanRex characters to counter bayo:pikachu, Link (just think about it), ryu, bowser jr,mario, Diddy (maybe),sonic,peach,ZSS and R.O.B
a lot of characters are able to counter bayo if played correctly, i was juste excpecting a reference to that since they decided to ban bayo before finding couters
Maybe to give players time to find said counters and avoiding a toxic metagame filled with Bayonettas until they've found? Dunno.
Ninjaed Lol. Bayo weakness...herself. I find that funny as hell.
That was very interesting, good work!
"Is there really that much problems?"
Thank you
I find it funny that the Street Fighter V footage that you showed was on the Skies of Honor stage, which is one of the few stages banned during the Capcom Cup this year because its constantly moving background could cause some players to get motion sick
I'm glad there will be more stage options in Ultimate due to stage hazards being able to be toggled.
quality video as usual. great esthetic, simplicity is key.
I'll save you time so you don't have to watch the video. Diddy.
JW Money No no no Zss
No Zelda
no greninja
no bayonetta
no miis
6:54 is the best explination for a ban that i've ever heard
why was wii remote banned at evo?
Just Breathe Because wireless controllers might lead to some chaos if one of those randomly connects to a WiiU and you don't know whose it is
but with potentially 20 or more people doing that at the same time its pretty easy for that instance to happen
***** 2k people signed up for smash 4 at EVO, I think it is very possible.
+AnimefanRex it happens at my local all the time and we obviously have way less
***** I do recall that being a reason why it was banned.
I think this is part of why Umbra is currently banned. Characters such as Cloud (especially Cloud) can just camp out on the widely spaced platforms that spawn at any point of the match. It's not stalling, because almost every character is able to get to those spots to chase Cloud, but put themselves at a huge disadvantage in doing so.
my friend sent me this to try and teach me a lesson
SMASH IS A PARTY GAME, LIVE WITH IT AND DON'T BAN ANYONE FOR ANYTHING.
for partys yeah those things are fun
but for competive play , we want to make everything as balanced as possible so that it only depends on skill
is it still possible to delete youtube replies via google+? i'm not going to do it, i'm just curious
Is Umbra Clock Tower considered ban worthy? I've rarely seen people willing to try it out, even when it was released along side Bayonetta. Back then, most arguments against it were about the visuals being too distracting (like wut?) and the solid platform above that moves above the stage. People also talked about the solid bottom platform with its camping potential, but people were REALLY insistent on the visuals and the top solid platform more than anything. I felt like it was banned prematurely, and now people want to ban Lylat & Duckhunt (despite the overall implications of doing so).
Shirma Akayaku Lylat has a lot of janky shit regarding recovering where people still have not found out how it exactly works. Dunt Hunt has the overall visual that is different compared to other stages and the stage is a huge disadvantage to little mac. On Umbra Clock Tower there is a point where you can literally go under the stage and camp for 2 minutes by jumping from platform to platform
gameandflogchannel When it comes to Lylat, I'm fine with it being banned, but I think Duck Hunt is fine since it's the only defensive stage (and Battlefield too since it has large blastzones). Little Mac or Ganondorf players can ban Duck Hunt during a set (it's why we have starters, counterpicks and bans). As for Umbra Clock Tower, I've seen rarely any tourneys run it back then, so the "camping" thing hasn't really been proven (until someone actually tries to do it and it proves to broken). We'll never see this though since UCT was banned early on (because of the visuals and the top solid platform).
I can't actually focus on UCT, I tried playing it a few times and I would actually lose track of myself and the opponent.
I think the visuals and solid platform are both very valid reasons to ban the stage, especially because even horizontal kill moves tend to send somewhat upwards, which means that platform could ruin kills (even if they don't tech.)
RacgiMan I can see where you're coming from with the visuals being distracting. Back then, that happened to me too, but after playing a some games on it, the visuals don't bother me anymore. So at this point, the visuals being ban worthy is not something I agree with entirely. As for the solid platform ruining kills, it could happen, but those chances are very few in between.
This and everything said up to this point is merely ideas and conjecture since tourneys barely run the stage, if at all. The reasons you stated are valid concerns, but until it's actually been put to the test (over the course of some time), banning just because of those reasons alone without testing them thoroughly is just wrong imo.
mm, I played on it a bit for some online tourneys, I noticed that it seemed really bad for slow characters unless they tried to camp somewhere (like under the solid platform)
Either way, it doesn't look like we'll unban it, so I guess it doesn't matter.
I can't say I disagree with it, but I wouldn't mind looking into it again.
they banned hero in australia
all because of down b
Whoa. Didn’t expect to find myself in this video. I’m among the players playing in the picture at 6:02