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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ส.ค. 2024
- A deep dive into how to run stealth missions in non-stealth games, like D&D or Pathfinder.
Red Dragon's Lair map: imgur.com/a/47...
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00:00 intro
01:00 what makes players choose stealth vs combat
04:38 pitfall 1: decision making
08:05 pitfall 2: only one solution
10:42 build a burglary
14:47 outro
I personally also always employ tiered failure similar to video games. Failing a stealth check means the guards are curious what that sound was, not that they immediately know where the players are.
... well now I feel dumb for not thinking of that
like come on dude Dishonored is right there! ...come to think of it I bet there are a lot of applicable lessons that could be learned from Dishonored.
Another problem is RAW, you need the DMs permission to be hidden. If your PC has an AC of 25, no one questions that. But if your stealth value is 25, the DM may not want you to ruin his campaign.
The last stealth mission I ran was actually pretty good. The party had two hours to infiltrate a city district controlled by a hostile force, get to the other side of the district, break some people out of jail and get out. If they were too late, an alarm would be raised and then it gets a lot more difficult to get back to an allied area.
Because there was an entire district to get through, being noticed by some guards wouldn't immediately ruin the whole mission, most likely just drain thei resources.
They knew they had a time limit, but while I kept track of minutes going by, I didn't tell them the exact time they had remaining, only estimates of how long it took them to do each step. Uncertainty makes the timer even more anxiety inducing.
There were also some unrelated distractions going on in the area, basically not-so-random encounters with possibilities for information or loot, but at the cost of time spent.
Some encounters they avoided with stealth, others they fought or talked themselves through. Got their target, caused a prison break which affects the world, heard commotion that foreshadowed other things they would learn abour soon. I think it was a great mission, even if I left a bit too much up to improv.
Great video!
I think the biggest takeaway for me (although as soon as you said it I couldn't believe i hadn't always been doing it) was to bring a greater variety of skill checks into stealth.
I've always brought in investigation and perception in addition to stealth, but there are definitely a lot of other checks that could easily come into play, and make additional oarty members actually feel useful.
(Other checks would often come up, but not directly in relation to the actual stealth; that's definitely going to change now)
After having run a bunch of heists, I am convinced nobles should be far more afraid of druids with 8 dexterity, than of rogues with +17 to stealth. It's incredible the amount of schenanigans druids can pull off.
I agree that it is important to telegraph (or straight up tell the PC) the DC and consequence of plans/actions.
As the DM I've learnt to be generous rather then realistically; a ringing bell could alert the entire bandit camp, and often 1 single mess up by the PCs can bring a whole stealth plan crumbling apart. So, it doesn't hurt to have NPCs react with video game logic (short memories, a tad unobservant), or even give the PCs a "3 strikes before they're out" level of suspicion from the guards.
My players generally play heroes. If I want them to take a stealthy approach, I fill the area with a bunch of town guards or other such combatants who are innocent but are "just doing their job." It's even better in the "prove the noble is corrupt" scenario, as their guards have also been fooled and are legitimately good people, so callously killing them would be even more tragic.
Your point about explaining dice rolls is really important, and I've recently realized that it's important in *any* "rulings not rules" situation, not just stealth. The game only works when everyone at the table has a shared understanding of how the world works, and it's often problematic when a player tries to do something that they think should be really easy but after they roll the DM tells them it was a really high difficulty (and not due to information that the PC couldn't know, just because they have fundamentally different opinions about the difficulty of the activity). Similarly, if there's a "common sense" potential outcome to an action that a player just isn't considering or doesn't think would happen, it's really important to make them aware of that potential outcome. Since I am running the game, I am enforcing my assumptions about the way the world works, but my players are never going share 100% of my assumptions, and those misalignments can cause problems. I've stolen a technique from BLeeM for that situation: "your character would know..." and then I can prompt them with whatever thing *I* think is perfectly reasonable that the player does not, so that they know that this is how this world that we're playing in is going to work.
I am absolutely gobsmacked at your perspicacity and insight, Trek. Yet another amazing breakdown and discussion. Thank you!!
Yeah I felt like I had gotten to the end of the internet in terms of hearing new actionable ideas and advice for D&D. Then I watched this! Great stuff!!
Baldurs gate 3 has also really opened my eyes on stealth. There's one area where you are asked to kill someone. In this area there is a floating eye that on a successful check you discover is transmitting everything it sees to a group of enemies. There's also a war drum that is up on a ledge that you can destroy so they can't call for reinforcements. And finally the target and her guard have a protection spell that blocks an instant of damage. The way I did it was having a rogue take out the drum and eye when the enemies weren't looking and then dropping a web spell on the target and her guard. It was so rewarding to strategize and execute a plan based off of information I had gathered. I am definitely going to try and work in these elements into my dnd games
If I had a nickel for every time I found a recently launched TH-cam channel where a guy with a European accent and a one-eyed cartoon avatar makes videos about how to improve D&D and I immediately subscribe to it, I'd have two nickels, which isn't a lot but it's weird that it happened twice.
What’s the other one? I’m always looking for more like this channel and dungeon masterpiece
@@jeffdauscha1436 Pointy Hat. Haven't heard of Dungeon Masterpiece but I'll check them out!
Let's gooooo, new Trekiros vid!!!
'If you have a Monk, they can be sad because they chose to play a Monk.'
Good sir, may I introduce you to the class feature Unarmored Movement at level 9, Slow Fall, and a level of skill monkeying that rivals the Rogue. If you're playing mid-level DND, Monks can probably pull off more shenanigans than the Rogue with their extra movement capabilities as they go full Prince of Persia on the facility.
Big fan of this. Always loved included non-Stealth skills in Stealth sessions
My pirate captain loves to use her flame thrower on every heist. I guess it is quieter than a gun?
"Persuation? Maybe the guards can be brided."
Picture on screen: "Leovold, Emissary of Trest"
Me: PTSD from EDH, when he was still legal.
I'm sure we can come to an... Arrangement
Stealth is also useful when you make killing unappealing for moral or legal reasons, eg. slaughtering all the guards would make your bounty much higher than just stealing the thing would.
I never knew that kishotenketsu had a name, but knew it is a very important part of game development.
The rogue: 😄
The rogue when they realize their party is literally carrying musical instruments and scale armor: 😰
We just talked about this (stealth in DnD) and are playing again today, so this was perfectly timed to add to the discussion or develop something fun.
Good video. The stealth archer in Skyrim is called a dominant strategy - and is named so because, it's the ideal solution to - what should be most encounters. A good game designer would have seen this and provided other encounters where stealth archery wouldn't work, like you are doing in the video.
I just had two of my small players captured and taken by Couatl and brought back to the lair of a baddie. This is perfect timing for this video to come out because I was trying to find way to make the encounter interesting from the inside (The kidnapped) and the outside (the rescuers). Now I can try to think of features that force everyone to use their strengths
bro has +7 insight. these vids are A+
I pretty much never bother even trying stealth before having a level 11 rogue in the party, because the randomness of dice rolls means stealth typically just doesn’t work. Which is really a symptom of DMs not designing encounters for stealth, as a rule, so they just default to rolling for it.
The problem is that that has trained me to just never bother trying even when they do design a mission to be stealth. I’m the player arguing to just not try for stealth at all because all my experiences of attempting it have been disastrous.
I miss when monks where cool.
Could be a great class for heists, why disarm any trap when as a monk I can avoid all? Climb walls, incredible speed, silent atacks.....and a great escapa plan for emergencies, just jump out the window and survive the 500 meters fall naturally.
I wish they were cool too, but alas :c
Shadow monks can do great in stealth thanks to little broken spell they can cast called pass without a trace, since no one in the design team bothered to play test it with the actual stealth and surprise rules. Also darkness and silence are fun spells in stealth.
i forgot to plan todays seasion and first thing that poped to my head was STEALTH and this video saved my ass... thank you so much!
Had a game where the DM was good at running stealth and combat. Always letting us devise our own approach to any scenario. We always made a plan that would be a stealthy approach but, our dice had different plans...ALMOST EVERY TIME. Each time we would fail roll after roll to the point that the DM had to turn it into combat or break the suspension of disbelief. Now, the one or two times we succeeded was an excellent stealth mission. The dice just made the story and that was we were really bad at stealthy approaches.
I think varying up the skills you call for is the most important piece of advice here. If you only ever call for Stealth rolls then the game can easily turn into everyone watching the Rogue play D&D or calling off the stealth mission entirely because they don’t want the Paladin to be left out.
"If you have a monk, they can... be sad because they chose to play a monk".... It got me laughing!! Hahahaha!
Pursuit encounters are another thing that would be interesting to discuss.
Your channel and videos are incredible, and i honestly want a video like that for every single encounter type, and a general tips for dms video, i am having a hard time managing to write a good story for my players and the way you handle things and teach them would help me so much
This is a great guide that i will use from now on, since last time i made a tealth mission it ended with 50% of a building being blown to bits! :D
Well I have nothing to teach you then - that was already peak D&D 😄
Am I the only person who never did a stealth run in Skyrim? I’ve put hundreds of hours in, always sword in one hand and spells in the other
My players tried to infiltrate a camp of kobalds only to fail dramatically the first stealth check and the rest of the party chumming in trying to create a distraction. I allowed for some players to roam around unnoticed but the whole camp was on high alert 😂
Very helpful advice. You really are helping me gain a more solid understanding of how to craft engaging experiences for my players.
I regretfully don't have time to watch it all just yet but I am fast-forwarding to the end to give the algorithm an early advance ;)
I know you're gonna have some kind of killer insight as always
~caz
Thank you so much for this breakdown! I've definitely found myself stuck in a "realism-first" style of encounter building. But, making the players engage with the world is also a priority.
Thank you! I recently have seen your video about the map-design and what ego-shooter can teach us. So, i already thought differently about how they might approach a very big bandit-camp. Sneaking was always an option, but now I have some decent ideas on how I'll bring the options to the players and vice versa.
Thanks for the great video Trek. Having these at hand give you so much power as a dm. Just listening to the concepts make the ideas flow. Maybe I can help you with some ideas too. For a video or maybe a series: Game structures, how they interact with one and other and does understanding and applying game structures help with adventure and campaign prep? (The hexcrawl, the dungeon crawl, the pointcrawl...)
I like designing encounters that can blend sneaky stealth with social stealth. I think hitman's uniform-areas system is a really good one to borrow from, where different parts of the map can be travelled around freely if you have the correct uniform.
never forget the stealth archer syndrom. what a great analogy to explain the approach. i also spotted some hot modrons on my area 😳👉👈
Thanks for this - Excellent work and insights, as usual. I really think you are headed for 1 million subs if you keep this up.
This was very well presented, and added many things to think about for my game. Thank you.
Excellent Video! I hope you make more. 👍
I actually built a new gamemode for the ttrpg I'm heading the creation of: It was inspired by Assassin's Creed (especially the board game Brotherhood of venice) and the exploration mode of Pathfinder 2e.
I call it tactical mode and the most interesting part is, in my opinion, that you dont have to use it to do stealth kills or try to go for the objective directly but without open conflict. You can also prepare for a fight or even something akin to a siege by setting up field defenses, artillery, summoning circles, etc.
Or you stay stealthy and use this opportunity to scout out the enemy forces and the environment.
Oh, I think this is going to come in handy for an adventure I'm working on.
Great advice. I've ran some mini stealth segments previously to test things out but wasn't very happy with how they turned out, so I was looking for ways to improve. This video will have me try some new stuff with renewed enthusiasm
Good job, that broke down the topic in a very understandable way.
Great video! I'd also add the importance of dealing with stealth failures, particularly when it involves non-stealth oriented characters whose players might otherwise be frustrated. The 5e spell "Pass Without Trace" is a nudge in that direction, although rather... OP. Something like forcing a Take 10 would have been more balanced.
The other side of this coin is that failure should not NECESSARILY trigger an alarm: fall-forward mechanics are good for this. Last week I GM'd an extended infiltration and each failure increased an Alarm tally. After a few tallies, I penalized all stealth attempts a little -- and once again when they reached the next "alert level". At the end of it, the alarm would have sounded and the entire place put on lockdown. But the PCs just went and sounded the alarm themselves anyways near the end ^_^
Thank you very much, I wanted to create a castle to make my players sneak pass and this is very useful
My players are just about to enter Baator and steal something from the lord of the 3rd, Mammon. This video came out just in time. This video put into words what already makes sense but I haven’t thought of.
Got a like for sad monk being sad!
You are the best D&D creator ever!!
The problem with skill checks is anyone can roll a 20 and get it, ya the fighter has a 1 in 5 chance of being better at athletics but a much higher chance of blowing stealth. Skill challenges should be more like they were in 4e.
Good advice, fun video. Thank you
Sadly I'm already doing a stealth scenario and players are JUST after 1 session of it, but next one will incorporate those ideas!
(It's not terrible and already uses some but as everything could be improved upon)
Good video i am excited to see more from you :)
Nice work on the video & 5e monk dig KEKW
Useful and inspiring, thanks!
Great insight. I only wish trekiros could be my DM
Hot modrons in my area? It's more likely than you think! Free modron check today!
Good video and definitely something to keep in mind when designing dungeons/encounters in the future.
I kinda disagree with the part that "making plans " is the best part of stealth missions, since the removal of the planning phase and flashback meccanic is why I like a lot blades in the dark.
The creativity of making plans on the spot is in my opinion way more engaging of the games give the ability to do so.
I am about to run a stealth-ish one on the weekend. And not thanks to your video...I need to adapt stuff :D
The best content on TH-cam!!!
8:14 "D&D and Pathfinder both feature a stealth skill (a skill called stealth)..."
I'm gonna nitpick a little. I'm not sure if Pathfinder does, but D&D 5e *does not* have a "stealth skill".
5e doesn't have skills like most TTRPG do. When you roll for stealth, you roll an ability check - specifically, a Dexterity check. Then, if you are proficient in Stealth, you may add your proficiency bonus to that Dexterity check.
Even the loudest of Barbarians - regardless of whether they are proficient in Stealth, can always roll a dexterity check to sneak around. It's just more likely that they'll get spotted than it would be for someone who has stealth expertise.
1e and 2e rpgs do (don’t know about the cprg)
The correct solution is stealth and then combat, not one or the other. Your party should always move quietly and scout the target. Know your foe. Win the battle first and then fight it. Next time you do a tactical video, maybe use Sun Tzu for reference instead of Mario.
Yeah, I feel like this was somethinng that was overlooked in this discussion. A big part of the reason that stealth is the dominant strategy in games like Skyrim is that the player can always revert from stealth to traditional combat, whereas melee combat being joined takes the option for stealth off the table.
it was good the video. thank you.
Incredibly good videos for the views they get. Shame I can't recommend them to my players! :D
cool video!
very cool -how do you like hn-murder-hobo-ify your players?
You might want to equalize your audio a bit, it's very 'boomy' and there's a faint ringing sound (i think it's in the pitch of E?) whenever your speak.
A highpass filter would fix the boominess. No idea about the ringing.
Development: The ringing noise is imperceptible on phone speakers.
Yup, sorry about the sound, I haven't been able to get home in two months so I'm not using my usual setup here. Tried my best to edit the worst of it, but I'm no sound engineer so there's still some weird artefacts left
Should be fixed in the next video
@@Trekiros Alright! Thanks for the explanation. On behalf of the community, you're officially forgiven for this one instance ;) ;) ;)
Have a good day!
PF2 Stealth System is vastly superior to D&D
"comment if you saw this" 😂
👀
Really good video! Great insights. I will definitely take away giving players clearer information about the places they are sneaking into and the guards. Allowing them to use different skills other than stealth is also a really good idea!