I love this! I just recently had a friend bend my PXG 0211 blades to 6 degrees flat and my 3 wedges to 7 degrees flat because I struggled with pulling my irons left. It made a huge difference for me. I’m so glad I found this. Thanks for the great intel lol
Not too long ago a PGA instructor thought it was weird that my irons were two degrees upright. He thought I should have a much flatter lie angle. With shoes on, I'm just under 6' but my wing span is 72 inches.
Mr. Erickson, 5' 10" with Sterling single length irons. Any chance you know how many deg flat I should/could go with them? BTW, your approach, along with Brad Hughes, is the most sensible approach I've seen. I think I'll get involved with your training modules. Much better than buying new equipment.
I love this info! I fight my irons pulling left. I need to flatten them out! As another poster asked about counter balance weights. What do you think about that practice?
I totally agree with you John. I'm 6'4 but I'm going to get my Mixuno mp64 irons set up 2 degrees flat with 1 inch longer shafts. What do you think about lead tape under the grip. Jack Nichalaus always applied lead tape under the grip, as he said it gave him better feel????
@lagpressure I love this! Been experimenting with 6 degrees flat and getting my left arm matched with my shoulder plane (I used to get my hands high at the top). The adjustment now is trying to get the proper angle of attack because the tendency with flatter is more of a sweep-shallow versus my older, steep AOA (10 degrees down with a 7-iron). When you first made this adjustment from 2 flat to 6 flat, did you have the same challenge?
I had my clubs bent 4 degrees flat yesterday and I am a new golfer. I have never been able to choose to hit a fade or draw till now. I was attacking pins for the first time in the longest time. Unreal difference. I had been fitted for clubs that were 1 degrees upright. I had them changed to old traditional which was a 4 degree move. I even had one bent 3 more degrees just to learn to hit it. O problems. Less fatting for sure.
Brendon, my man, I’m just rewatching this vid again after just recently getting really interested in Mr. Ericksons concepts….that 6 degree flat one iron made you swing different….you should consider them on your current set, I think John liked a bit heavier club too.
Makes a lot of sense what John has explained just the lil time I’ve spent playing golf coming from a baseball background. My question is if your clubs are too upright can that make u early extend and raise the handle in an attempt to fit the club in at impact?
Of course.. that's what people do.. and it's a disaster. It creates a bad golf swing and locks you into that swing forever. So a bad golf swing goes for a fitting, and the fitter fits the bad swing to a bad club so they are locked into poor ballstriking for life.
@@lagpressure I‘m testing this concept here in Germany since almost half a year. Flattened the 9,7,5 iron of my iconic Hogan Apex FTX forged set. It feels much more natural for me as an 6 foot tall person. Just one question from a golfing developing country 😅 Did you flattened all your clubs (including wedges) up to 6 degrees. Cheers from Germany
@@lagpressure Makes so much more since now. My friend who I mostly play with went last year to a big name fitter in Alabama and spent around 5 grand on a whole bag. I choose not to bc I knew my swing sucked and going off the little bit of knowledge about fitting I’ve researched if my swing got better then my clubs would no longer work the way they were fitted to work. And I just realized and it makes so much since I would just be stuck with bad swing bad clubs lol. My swing couldn’t get better bc we are so focused on swing and ball data and where our ball goes and the flight. Just like my friend. Yes he gets maybe 8 yards more of distance but 5 grand later still has no idea where the ball will go. Your a genius! Thank you for your knowledge that you share free m all your hard work and efforts to play this wonderful game better. Look forward to seeing more content you share.
I have some old Mizuno blades I sometimes practice with to get my ball striking better. Have them bent 2 up. Going to have them bent at least 2 down, maybe 4 if clubmaker is comfortable with that, and see how it goes. I have the classic come up at impact John mentions so the club head is correct at impact. From baseball, I want to stay down into and rotate. Looks like a lie angle change may facilitate that.
Like yourself I have pursued the better golf swing. Perhaps not as in-depth as you but I find the same struggles. However I would like to know your opinion. I am 65 with poor flexibility but still sports minded. Should I settle for a senior swing such as Paul Wilson easy relaxed swing or should I continue to try the ‘more movement’ Milo swing? I do recall a teacher saying you were getting confused with too many swings. This is my problem. Perhaps your opinion will help me decide. As a PS. Everything I try the ball seems to go the same distance 🤣🤣🤣 however occasionally I have a day where I seem to hit it 10 to 20 yards further which confuses me because I can’t recapture it the next time I play. I’m close to giving up actually.
The ABS course we offer has done wonders for golfers of all ages. If you are still walking, you can benefit from the work we all do. 100% success rate (significant improvement attested by the student) for students who have worked through Module 6.
I purchased and received the old Dalton McCrary dvds called "How to hit the golf ball as straight as you can point." He is 6'2" and advocates for clubs that are 4 degrees upright. Between John and Dalton is 10 degrees of lie angle. McCrary teaches the "cast from the top" (ie Monte Schienblum, David Duval, Jack Nicklaus, Steve Pratt, Mike Austin). An older instructor of mine (tall) spoke of hitting old hogan irons when he was young, and having to bend them up because they came from the factory 2 degrees flat, for Mr. Hogan hated the hook. In working through the release style of Mike Malaska and Duval, they remove the forearm rotation with a strong left hand grip and a right hand tossing motion (what TGM calls an angled hinge, but the face is already closed due to the grip and the forces at impact), not allowing the clubface so much action. That would seem to be the same reasoning for these clubs being 6 degrees flat...to reduce the ability of the clubface to close. It's time to have 2 instructors on at the same time. Malaska and John, then Monte and Lee Dietrich, then Pratt and Nowicki, etc. At some point, all of them would eventually come to an agreement that "grip" (strong or neutral) dictates all things.
You're spot on with the grip comment. I was a perennial slicer of the driver. I've strengthened my left hand and all of a sudden i CAN'T slice it even if i try. To slice i have to weaken the left hand at set up. I tried all the moves, all the feels, all the 'try to come from the inside', 'stop coming across it' etc but none of that worked because it was a grip issue - even hitting in-out if the face is open at impact which it will be with a weak grip it's starting straight going right. My miss is now straight left, my normal shot shape with driver is now a tiny draw with decent trajectory and about 280-320 yards total on a firm fairway in dry weather. It's made the game amazingly fun since i'm now finding fairways instead of having to aim well left and still finding the right rough 210 yards out there.
*Please don't stray away from this swing type Brandon you warrant to live with this philosophy to occupy many of your 'ideal' proper golf swing. Don't disappoint here in Whitter.*
How heavy were the heads in comparison to the shaft. All club heads feel too light to me on modern equipment wbich feels so numb coming from baseball/softball connectivity
Very interesting! I'm 5'10" with relatively short arms so I always get fitted upright. This forces a really vertical swing plane which is hard on my back and makes it difficult for me to follow through. Would going flatter, be easier on my body? Does a flatter lie promote more of a follow through? It seems like it.
ok, holy f*ck! I just went out to my garage to "simulate" a flatter lie. Grabbed my 6i and swung normally, keeping a controlled, easy swing. Head speed only 73-75mph. Really slow. Then I simulated a flat lie by dropping my hands a few inches and squatted. Same effort and the head went 84-87mph. I can't believe it. That's incredible. My fitter is going to curse you when I bring all my clubs in to flatten them out!
@@TedInoue Club fitters run for the hills when an ABSer shows up... true stuff! A lot of them will refuse to go that flat... but you can always pick up a set of vintage blade that will play every bit as good as anything modern (irons). Remember.. irons are for accuracy and heavier heads will also help in the distance control area.. and give better impact physics, energy transfer from a head with more mass. The driver is the only club in your bag that you might swing for max distance. Not irons.
If you hit it flush.. don't think.. if you don't and can't seem to improve.. might be time to reconsider a lot of things. I just look at the great strikers.. do what they do.. and now I am a very quality striker myself.
I just made my first TH-cam video and actually touched on this subject. Love it. But I have to ask two things. Getting the opportunity to listen to so many instructors, do you get information overload? And second, what do you think when someone tells you one method and then someone says the exact opposite information?
When i ordered my hogan icons last season i put 1° upright on my specs🤦♂️ But they still feel fine and i hit the shapes i need but i shouldve went a couple flat at least??
@@lagpressure point taken. Thankyou. Before i got them i was playing mp-14s since i was 17 and noticed my divots would dig in toe first so thats what i went off of...
Very interesting. Since most clubs now are cast not forged and with cast most club fitters won’t risk more than 2o adjustment I think we will all have to consider a second set of old forged clubs with stiff shafts. I’ve never seen the argument before how flat clubs benefit direction and default to loft differences. Fascinating. Thanks.
This is actually what the scientists should be looking at... they don't test or investigate because the "theory" isn't even presented to them... I won't even get started on Trackman etc.. I'll spare you all for now...!
@@Frazer20 i got fitted for green dot 2 degree upright and it hasn’t set well with me since I ordered them 3 weeks ago I’m right handed and feel I will pull left until I get used to them
I like this alot, but I can't afford his course. I can't even afford one module. For those who have plopped down the bucks, do you think it's beneficial, or do we get the jest of this method on youtube. (eg - flat swing/lie, lateral slide, hook/fade swing, etc) or iis it a lot of ground force theory, vectors, and other BS or is there a focus on drills that help?
Most people are probably just blinded by ads to hit it 50 yards farther.. and don't take the time to think about what needs to happen at impact. The greatest strikers played off flat lie angles.. so it's not a coincidence. Pick your own poison.
@@petermartinaitis8166 I did.... the ball doesn't care how tall you are.. the shaft is better to come in on a flatter plane. I showed clearly the advantages of it. If you don't think you can go that flat.. don't. But you will be at a disadvantage to a player who has adapted to flatter lie angles. Fortunately for you.. most golfers don't understand this.. so you don't have to worry about it.. but there is no denying the geometry of the advantage.
There is an argument for single length and an argument against it as well. When I was on tour, I experimented with setting up my 8/9/PW/SW all the same length and weight, but found I was not as accurate with my PW with an 8 iron shaft.... pretty important club, so I went back.
Trackman can tell you what your lie angle is at impact. If that angle with a 6I is say 63 degrees should you get clubs more upright than standard or more flat than standard. And how many players are there out there who are at say 57 degrees lie angle at impact let alone 54 degrees which is the six degrees flat Erickson uses?
Your swing will quickly evolve to suit your gear. Most players are locked into upright swings because their clubs are upright. Trackman looks at the ball.. not the club. Not even an input algorithm for the mass of the clubhead yet alone acceleration or deceleration. Has no idea if I am hitting the ball with a loaded or unloaded floating shaft.. I mean.. note to scientists.. get up to speed with reality.
Question for John: Do you prefer heavier irons with stiffer shafts, or heavier with weaker shafts? I have played 6 degree flat clubs for 15 years, and they definitely help you flatten and shallow your swing.
John, what is your advice here… I surmise your average audience is playing with the latest cast game improvement club that cannot change the lie angle more than a couple degrees? If I recall when I worked with you your clubs were a classic Wilson Staff forged blade that bend like butter. Also, with a flat lie will you address the low hands on the set up? I had to beg a Bay area club maker to bend my forged clubs 4 degree flat. He thought I was crazy being 6’3”…. He knew you and quit arguing and bent my clubs. Thanks
Need ones with a long hosel, then heat them up with a blow torch and bend. The old Titleist PTs are great for this. I've done loads of these for John's students. There are threads on John's forum showing how to do it.
Great content, but like most of his videos thus far I'm left with many unanswered questions. Is 6 degrees flat standard for everybody? Does it not vary from person to person? And if so, how do you determine which is best for the individual??
I think it goes by what you naturally do. If you had a 6* flat lie angle you would have to adapt your swing in order to hit it straight. The flatter the lie angle the more open the clubface is. Hence the concept hook in and cut out. In my opinion and take it for what it's worth. Hogans' secret was simply put try everything you can in setup and swing to hook it with equipment designed to produce a cut with an exit through impact designed to cut it.
I understand where he's going with the shaft rotation but that's a limited 2 dimensional view. You also need to take into account shaft lean and compression.
who'd a thunk it, ping's clubfitting system could be wrong. i've been playing ping white dot 3 degrees up for 8 years which i was fitted for and seem ok i guess. i always thought the toe should be up a bit at address because the shaft flexes down and forward or maybe backwards too at some point. i'm 6' 0'' also. interesting discussion as always.
Club fitting SHOULD NOT be based upon address... only impact.. and only impact of where you SHOULD BE... not where you are with a poor golf swing (I'm just using that for example.. you might have a great swing!) But I can tell you.. swing the flattest lie angles you can handle. 4 degrees down for a 6/0 golfer is a breeze.
@@lagpressure that's very good info because over the last couple of years i've switched to a swing i developed on my own and from youtube videos and is a flatter pivot driven type swing where before i was more armsy type upright swing. i'll have to make lie board with some marking tape on the sole of my clubs to see where i'm at. i do have a couple of forged sets that i can have bent ajusted, you are the expert and thnx for the help.
The basic problem with golf is that the conventional swing which has it’s roots back in the 1800s was developed around the limitations of hickory shafted clubs which twisted the face of the club open and shut during the swing and snapped under stress. This I know because as a kid I broke all my grandpa’s old Mashies and Niblicks. Byron Nelson developed the dual plane swing to take advantage of steel shaft bending, loading and unloading but still dragged club through ball with it compressing and decompressing off a face moving forward at 80+ MPH. The better way to accelerate the ball which Harry Frankenberg (Count Yogi) discovered is to swing a golf club like a hammer or cracking a whip to get maximum acceleration of club head BEFORE impact and maximum rate of ball decompression off the face by locking and momentarily stopping the club face with the grip as face turns square to target which the ball reacts to like an unbelted passenger in a car moving 80mph of the driver slams on the brakes of hits brick wall, which is what a downswing feels like if one does not lift up the back foot to free the hips to turn past 45° open. The biggest problem with that swing style is a propensity for snapping club heads off the shaft at the hosel which which could be remedied by redesigning how shaft connects to hosel but that is still done like it was back when golfers were whacking balls made out of leather and boiled goose feathers 🤷🏼♂️
Interesting that the old hickories and early persimmon woods were generally very flat. I have some 1930's persimmon woods that were set up at 48 degree lie angles. Some modern drivers I have seen are at 64 degree lie angles.
@@lagpressure The modern two-plane swing wasn’t used before the 1930s which might account for the shallower lie angles. Byron Nelson is credited with developing the technique of dropping the club down on a lower plane when he switched from hickory to steel shafted driver sometime in the early-mid-30s.
With any newer idea or concept of what the greats from yesteryear were doing in an effort to better understand should be proven out by the modern player. The modern pros of today have everything at their disposal to dissect and analyze any potential flaw in their swing. The concept of 6 degrees flat may work well for his particular swing. He is intentionally trying to swing it very flat, like that of Ben Hogan. The concept of the right angle of the shaft to the spine angle is very interesting. That concept can be proven out by many modern players. Tiger is very close to this right angle at about half way down with his hands, at 75 % of the way the shaft is intersecting his spine at an almost perfect 90* angle. Rory is very similar. So to extrapolate that further is the angle of your torso and shaft length more important to lie angle? It sure seems that one could stand more upright and bend a bit more at the waist to get this 90* angle. I definitely don't like the concept of adapting my swing to a flatter lie angle. I think it's easier to adapt your lie angle to what you more naturally do to achieve this 90* angle.
The ball prefers flatter shaft entry.. it's just geometry. I've spelled out the advantages in common easy to understand demonstration a 3rd grader could understand. Do as you wish.
I play with toe in the air cause I love a flat type swing.... scratch golfer and feel I work ball that style easily too lol fade or straight is no prob with toe up... its just how you think and draw of course is easy lol
I’ve heard that when inertia pulls on the club the toe will actually flatten out, the shaft is always flexing. It seems anyone can back up whatever they think because it works for them. And that’s the problem with golf everyone has an opinion and every one contradicts the other. That’s why the pros are so good with different types of swings, they all start young and just make their natural swing work. I can appreciate all of Brandon’s work but how can he focus on his swing when he’s getting a different concept every other month. Arm swing, body swing, upright, around, Malaska move, on and on, it’s the reason most can’t break 90.
@@maeu59 what i’ve realised from watching, etc a bunch of different pros: - zero instructors interpret or explain the physics correctly - few are willing to teach more than one different style/method even though everyone accepts theres more than one way to swing a club - all of these secret moves or whatever are actually often explaining the same or overlapping principles - zero want to talk about mental exercises/training - people often want to deal with a symptom directly, rather than address why it happened in the first place
@@maeu59 Brendon has a good thing going.. offers all these methods for consideration. Never heard of anyone doing this.. and he is very successful staying open and objective to so many opinions and theories.
The funny thing is your swing wasn’t flat at all. But the result was good. You just dropped it to the inside just like you would with your clubs. Go figure. I have played clubs with a 4 degree variance at different times over the past couple of years due to experimentation. I just figured it out. But to shape the ball comfortably I need to be near what most call standard. The easiest way to close the face is to keep it closed and it will be square at impact with your body turn. Length of the clubs has to match comfortably.
It's all personal choice... find what you like.. but I just showed you the advantages as clearly and directly as I could. If you choose something else? Well...at least I told you.
@@lagpressure but you said you could almost not hit with Brandon's 7i, and that you would have to be steeper with it. So if Brandon wanted to implement ABS he needs to change his lie angle, or can he swing a steeper ABS swing?
@@ssubotai Brendon can do what he wants.. I just put out there the "clear as day" advantages of going flat lie angles. Brendon's swing is fairly upright.. so his clubs are also. Flat lie angles over time would flatten his swing just by design.
It's weird how it seems like pros don't want amateurs to get better, I'm 5/11 and always felt like I needed flater lie but everything says I need upright. I couldn't use clubs more upright than what I have now.
Currently playing Tommy Armour 985 with stock shafts (very stiff) and no offset (ideal). I don't play vintage for nostalgia, I play them for the better technology. More mass, no offset, flatter lie angles, stiffer shafts.. better feel, better feedback...better clubs. I will hit them much better than any modern irons I have seen. They certainly come make a better modern iron, but the clubs today are designed for hackers.. not Hogan.
We all watch videos to learn something from the game. As far as I'm concerned John's experience alone gives weight to what he is teaching and showing. Anyone can disagree, but whatever " you " say has really nothing to back that up. Other than you saying so. So why argue? It's ridiculous, just watch maybe learn. If you have question ask. . I'm here to learn something. I'll let my swing decide if it's wrong or right.
Just for clarity. John is advocating a club face approaching impact “ open” then squaring it with the forearms aggressively as possible knowing it’s virtually impossible to hook the ball. On one of Brendan earlier videos with AJ Bonar , AJ said the same thing about Stan Leonard who actually set up with the club open so he could close it aggressively without fear of hooking.
Well, not exactly... I teach closing it with level shoulders... the forearm rotation does help things.. but they are like a door hitting a stop.. they don't roll over when the shoulders torso take over aggressively.
Set up a few degrees open because that is not impact yet. As the forces of the speed and weight of the clubface get to the ball, the clubface is still closing. We want it square at the point where the ball separates from the clubface, which is just past setup. If we set up square, the face will be closed at separation. If we set up closed, separation will be much further closed and going way left.
@@tiptopsaidhe Set up has little to do with what is happening at impact. I could start from the top of my swing with no set up.. so it's really about delivery and post impact intentions. Set up... there are things you can do to help you turn more.. or swing flatter... or help get the face opened up.
@@lagpressure That makes little sense to a tgm student. However, I do appreciate your activity here today. It's awesome. I have some old Hogan PCs and +4 hcp college goffer son, so this is going to be the next experiment. I'm moving the 5 iron (which is the same as his Apex 7 iron) to at least 4 flat, and going to the range. He has complained the last few tournament qualifiers (to include the USOpen) that he's missing greens left and long.
I can see the logic making sense for a little kid, like he alludes to, but if you already have a steep swing, all this will do is have you swinging that same swing but now with a too flat lie angle. Unless, the psychological aspect of trying to adapt to that lie angle is that strong?
I always cringe when I hear my mates who get fitted into upright lie angles. Drummond Golf here in Australia is the absolute worst for doing it, I don’t think they’ve ever fit someone for flat lie angles
Not defending DG but if trackman tells me my shaft lie angle is 62 degrees at impact should I get clubs with an upright or flat lie angle? And how many golfers do you know who have the shaft at say 56 degrees at impact.
@@forrestgardener8906 like John was saying - fit your swing to the proper club setup. If you want to use a hitting protocol, get your clubs set flat and work on your swing to match those dynamics
@@ocat1979 And who gets to say what the proper club setup is? And hitting protocol? That terminology is probably the worst hangover from TGM. Give it a rest.
@@maeu59 There is nothing misleading about what I have said. I just fixed a 16 year old girl yesterday who was hitting horrible with her upright clubs.. she's 5/3 and was fitted with standard lie angles. I made up a set for her at 6 degrees flat and she was flushing it immediately.. no swing changes at all. She has a great swing and a former junior champion that has been struggling lately. She'll be fine now.
@@lagpressure clubs too upright is a plague. Fitters try to cure players slices by giving them upright clubs which often just makes their swings worse.
If the toe is in the air at impact.. it will send the ball farther and farther left as the short irons get more lofted.. right when you need accuracy the most. Modern clubfitting that puts upright clubs into golfers hands because of some arbitrary chart on a wall is not helping golfers get better... it's hurting many of them actually..
@@lagpressure Exactly. 40 years of club building fitting tells me upright short irons are a huge problem. And what's the worst miss? Long left. Unless you like downhill left to right chips and putts. Lol. I did the math once but I don't remember exactly what it was. Something like 2 degrees upright sends a 100 yard wedge 15 yards left. Something like that. Just ridiculous. And then we get into the unconscious adaptive fixes to stop it from happening that when done with long clubs destroys their playability. People slice their long clubs because they have upright short irons. You know what I mean John. I know you do.
@@lagpressure I understand! It actually makes me angry. I get approached by people when I practice as you experience too I'm sure. A fellow was appreciating my chipping/ pitching recently and approached me and noticed my vintage r61 and handled it and noticed it's flat as hell. Which of course he had a lot of concern about and the dogma started flowing... I realized I've had the discussion 1 billion too many times and just couldn't do it. Just makes me mad at this point. Cause things shouldn't be this screwed up.
@@555Trout So, in a "for instance" scenario, one has done the lie board with every club and been adjusted accordingly for each. Should the 9 iron and wedges be moved 1 degree flatter by default, based upon your experience? Your reply is appreciated.
@@ngascoigne Thanks Neil. Several of the Wishon drivers over the years have long hosels that are deliberately made bendable. Stock is around 58 degs but they are advised as +or- 4 degs adjustable. So 54 is achievable/orderable and I've bent them further flat to 52 degs. Interestingly Bang Golf have a driver model for seated/disabled golfers that is 42 degs lie. Possibly they could commission something in between that and a modern driver.
it's good to see someone teaching TOTAL BEN HOGAN technique. most of the guys on tour for the last 30 years have been doing the flippy hands thing ... which, as this guy says, comes down to all timing. all timing is hard to do and is not controlled...it's very inconsistent...and not accurate.
Interesting observation but too many assumptions that this is all "good". For example, most golfers who take it back flat return the club steep or OTT. So the argument at 6:26 that this promotes a flat backswing could just as easily be argued as a bad thing. Also, think of this - if you impact the ball with the toe too up, the result is a thin shot or worse, a shank. This is why you chip toe down, is it not? I'd rather hit one or two shots a round that were too toe down and resulted in a weak fade than thin one over the green or shank it. The lie should be adjusted to the swing, not the other way around.
If the heel digs in first and sends the ball left, the club lie is too upright. If the toe digs in first and opens the face to send the ball right, the lie is too flat. If neither of those are happening the lie is just right. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.
@@pgadarelpgadarel8639 I'm saying the former and John is saying the latter. It's been my experience after playing for many many years that your swing is is your swing and is unique to you. Trying to swing like someone else or how someone else tells you to swing is hard to do. For example if you swing the club upright and someone says you should try swinging flatter that's just going to confuse you. Why not change the things that are easiest such as set up or a good club fitting. Things you can change before you ever take the club back.
JE - again you have the physics a bit mixed up. Please check out Dr Sasho Mackenzie's article 'What is ‘rate of closure’ and can it help your golf swing?'. ROC is a complex matter and just making your swing inclination flatter will actually increase ROC but it's far more complicated. Your explanation is too simplistic and doesn't cover all the other variables that can be involved. Note what he says about swing plane inclination How to change your Rate of Closure, #2: Change the “incline plane” of your swing The club is swung down and around the body on the forward swing, which presents the Inclined Plane knob. Turning this knob to zero would result in moving the clubhead in a vertical plane like a Ferris wheel (0° from vertical). At a driver speed of 90 mph, an Incline Plane knob turned up to 30° from vertical (a steep move through impact) contributes about 800 °/s to RoC. Cranking the knob up to a relatively flat 45° from vertical, increases the contribution to 1200 °/s. There may be reasons to change the pitch of your swing, but reducing RoC shouldn’t be one of them. Tour players tend to have relatively similar vertical swing planes with driver (40° to 45° from vertical) and most amateurs are too vertical already.
You have to be really careful that the clubface is square or even a tad open at address. I think the key is rolling your left forearm in the backswing. That helps me make sure my club is neutral through the impact. I use Hogan’s feet placement grid, also.
That is strictly your opinion. Not based upon fact, science or geometry. Flat lie angles give you a significant advantage. You stay upright, not me. Anyone can adapt their swing to flatter lie angles if you swing the club correctly. Flatter swings give more power also and easier on the back and body. I'm 6/0.... 6 degrees flat and I'll take your money on the golf course. Disagree? Come prove me wrong.
@@lagpressure Why are you so aggressive when someone disagrees with you? Very unprofessional. You're a former low-rank professional golfer challenging Average Joe amateurs to skins matches in youtube comments sections because they disagree with you. Grow up bro.
@@electricalstuff259 I had a guy take me up one time on a bet. We both left $1000 cash in the pro shop.. and he said he was a plus 1 and thought I was some kind of snake oil salesman. I took him for $700 and never heard from the guy again. So I see it as doing a good deed for society. One less internet troll. He brought all the latest clubs etc.. and I played persimmon and clubs older than I am. I kept hitting fairways and greens, he kept making bogies and complaining about the greens. Fun day. I don't fear anyone or anything golf related. Only great white sharks when kayaking in the ocean.
Alright! 1. Bend my stealth driver hosel to 6 flat 2. tip my ventus velcore a foot 3. add a shaft extender or 3 to the butt. 4. Add 253 grams of lead tape to the 200 gram head to get to 16 ounces Got it!!
I love this! I just recently had a friend bend my PXG 0211 blades to 6 degrees flat and my 3 wedges to 7 degrees flat because I struggled with pulling my irons left. It made a huge difference for me. I’m so glad I found this. Thanks for the great intel lol
thats extreme bud, hows it working out?
Loved it, B. Superb, cutting edge content. Me likey!
The sound of that persimmon is heaven 👌
Of course... something few consider... or the clicking of steel spikes that actually grip the ground when you swing.
Not too long ago a PGA instructor thought it was weird that my irons were two degrees upright. He thought I should have a much flatter lie angle. With shoes on, I'm just under 6' but my wing span is 72 inches.
Mr. Erickson, 5' 10" with Sterling single length irons. Any chance you know how many deg flat I should/could go with them? BTW, your approach, along with Brad Hughes, is the most sensible approach I've seen. I think I'll get involved with your training modules. Much better than buying new equipment.
I love this info! I fight my irons pulling left. I need to flatten them out!
As another poster asked about counter balance weights. What do you think about that practice?
I totally agree with you John. I'm 6'4 but I'm going to get my Mixuno mp64 irons set up 2 degrees flat with 1 inch longer shafts.
What do you think about lead tape under the grip. Jack Nichalaus always applied lead tape under the grip, as he said it gave him better feel????
@John Erickson I'm buying in on this but what lie angle do you recommend for a 5-9" person?
@lagpressure I love this! Been experimenting with 6 degrees flat and getting my left arm matched with my shoulder plane (I used to get my hands high at the top). The adjustment now is trying to get the proper angle of attack because the tendency with flatter is more of a sweep-shallow versus my older, steep AOA (10 degrees down with a 7-iron). When you first made this adjustment from 2 flat to 6 flat, did you have the same challenge?
I had my clubs bent 4 degrees flat yesterday and I am a new golfer. I have never been able to choose to hit a fade or draw till now. I was attacking pins for the first time in the longest time. Unreal difference. I had been fitted for clubs that were 1 degrees upright. I had them changed to old traditional which was a 4 degree move. I even had one bent 3 more degrees just to learn to hit it. O problems. Less fatting for sure.
Now this was interesting. Good vid.
Brendon, my man, I’m just rewatching this vid again after just recently getting really interested in Mr. Ericksons concepts….that 6 degree flat one iron made you swing different….you should consider them on your current set, I think John liked a bit heavier club too.
This is amazing, I remember reading an article about Ian woosnam who is 5"4 and had regular length clubs bent flat and what a player he was
Exactly... Ian had it right...
Years later... I saw him playing a modern light driver and his swing had deteriorated significantly.
Does your swing method "require" flat clubs? Or can you transition into flatter clubs as you learn?
Makes a lot of sense what John has explained just the lil time I’ve spent playing golf coming from a baseball background. My question is if your clubs are too upright can that make u early extend and raise the handle in an attempt to fit the club in at impact?
Of course.. that's what people do.. and it's a disaster. It creates a bad golf swing and locks you into that swing forever. So a bad golf swing goes for a fitting, and the fitter fits the bad swing to a bad club so they are locked into poor ballstriking for life.
@@lagpressure
I‘m testing this concept here in Germany since almost half a year. Flattened the 9,7,5 iron of my iconic Hogan Apex FTX forged set. It feels much more natural for me as an 6 foot tall person.
Just one question from a golfing developing country 😅
Did you flattened all your clubs (including wedges) up to 6 degrees.
Cheers from Germany
@@lagpressure Makes so much more since now. My friend who I mostly play with went last year to a big name fitter in Alabama and spent around 5 grand on a whole bag. I choose not to bc I knew my swing sucked and going off the little bit of knowledge about fitting I’ve researched if my swing got better then my clubs would no longer work the way they were fitted to work. And I just realized and it makes so much since I would just be stuck with bad swing bad clubs lol. My swing couldn’t get better bc we are so focused on swing and ball data and where our ball goes and the flight. Just like my friend. Yes he gets maybe 8 yards more of distance but 5 grand later still has no idea where the ball will go. Your a genius! Thank you for your knowledge that you share free m all your hard work and efforts to play this wonderful game better. Look forward to seeing more content you share.
I have some old Mizuno blades I sometimes practice with to get my ball striking better. Have them bent 2 up. Going to have them bent at least 2 down, maybe 4 if clubmaker is comfortable with that, and see how it goes. I have the classic come up at impact John mentions so the club head is correct at impact. From baseball, I want to stay down into and rotate. Looks like a lie angle change may facilitate that.
Like yourself I have pursued the better golf swing. Perhaps not as in-depth as you but I find the same struggles. However I would like to know your opinion. I am 65 with poor flexibility but still sports minded. Should I settle for a senior swing such as Paul Wilson easy relaxed swing or should I continue to try the ‘more movement’ Milo swing?
I do recall a teacher saying you were getting confused with too many swings. This is my problem. Perhaps your opinion will help me decide.
As a PS. Everything I try the ball seems to go the same distance 🤣🤣🤣 however occasionally I have a day where I seem to hit it 10 to 20 yards further which confuses me because I can’t recapture it the next time I play.
I’m close to giving up actually.
Try Malaska method
The ABS course we offer has done wonders for golfers of all ages. If you are still walking, you can benefit from the work we all do. 100% success rate (significant improvement attested by the student) for students who have worked through Module 6.
Love this.
If you are playing a 1 iron shaft in your driver, how stiff do you have your irons?
What brand of irons is he using?
I purchased and received the old Dalton McCrary dvds called "How to hit the golf ball as straight as you can point." He is 6'2" and advocates for clubs that are 4 degrees upright. Between John and Dalton is 10 degrees of lie angle. McCrary teaches the "cast from the top" (ie Monte Schienblum, David Duval, Jack Nicklaus, Steve Pratt, Mike Austin). An older instructor of mine (tall) spoke of hitting old hogan irons when he was young, and having to bend them up because they came from the factory 2 degrees flat, for Mr. Hogan hated the hook. In working through the release style of Mike Malaska and Duval, they remove the forearm rotation with a strong left hand grip and a right hand tossing motion (what TGM calls an angled hinge, but the face is already closed due to the grip and the forces at impact), not allowing the clubface so much action. That would seem to be the same reasoning for these clubs being 6 degrees flat...to reduce the ability of the clubface to close. It's time to have 2 instructors on at the same time. Malaska and John, then Monte and Lee Dietrich, then Pratt and Nowicki, etc. At some point, all of them would eventually come to an agreement that "grip" (strong or neutral) dictates all things.
You're spot on with the grip comment. I was a perennial slicer of the driver. I've strengthened my left hand and all of a sudden i CAN'T slice it even if i try. To slice i have to weaken the left hand at set up.
I tried all the moves, all the feels, all the 'try to come from the inside', 'stop coming across it' etc but none of that worked because it was a grip issue - even hitting in-out if the face is open at impact which it will be with a weak grip it's starting straight going right.
My miss is now straight left, my normal shot shape with driver is now a tiny draw with decent trajectory and about 280-320 yards total on a firm fairway in dry weather.
It's made the game amazingly fun since i'm now finding fairways instead of having to aim well left and still finding the right rough 210 yards out there.
It's not closure that sends an upright club left.
That is a +1 here from a German golfer!
*Please don't stray away from this swing type Brandon you warrant to live with this philosophy to occupy many of your 'ideal' proper golf swing. Don't disappoint here in Whitter.*
Interesting stuff. I’ve got some 1983 Hogans. Might have to give it a try.
I'd try one club first
@@Handletaken4 Most definitely!
This is excellent
Why did he hit it off the floorboards, when there was a mat?
How heavy were the heads in comparison to the shaft. All club heads feel too light to me on modern equipment wbich feels so numb coming from baseball/softball connectivity
Very interesting! I'm 5'10" with relatively short arms so I always get fitted upright. This forces a really vertical swing plane which is hard on my back and makes it difficult for me to follow through. Would going flatter, be easier on my body? Does a flatter lie promote more of a follow through? It seems like it.
ok, holy f*ck! I just went out to my garage to "simulate" a flatter lie. Grabbed my 6i and swung normally, keeping a controlled, easy swing. Head speed only 73-75mph. Really slow. Then I simulated a flat lie by dropping my hands a few inches and squatted. Same effort and the head went 84-87mph. I can't believe it. That's incredible. My fitter is going to curse you when I bring all my clubs in to flatten them out!
It's better for your body for sure.. right angles to the spine gives the proper leverage. Most people are way too upright.
@@TedInoue Club fitters run for the hills when an ABSer shows up... true stuff! A lot of them will refuse to go that flat... but you can always pick up a set of vintage blade that will play every bit as good as anything modern (irons). Remember.. irons are for accuracy and heavier heads will also help in the distance control area.. and give better impact physics, energy transfer from a head with more mass. The driver is the only club in your bag that you might swing for max distance. Not irons.
@@lagpressure You made a believer out of me. I added a lot of speed with the driver too. Need to get to the range now!
Interesting ideas. Really enjoying the vids. Kind of makes one think, maybe to much, but what the heck.
If you hit it flush.. don't think.. if you don't and can't seem to improve.. might be time to reconsider a lot of things. I just look at the great strikers.. do what they do.. and now I am a very quality striker myself.
@@lagpressure Thanks, I appreciate your taking the time to comment.
Great content
This is everything I’ve been waiting to hear! I knew my clubs were too upright. I’m 6’2” with long arms. I basically have to stand on top of the ball.
try adding at least 1.5 to 2 inches to the shaft length
Discussing exactly that with my fitter
@@golfbulldog and find lighter heads and counter balanced shafts. Gets messy unfortunately
@@hudedwards8943 If your clubs are already too upright and you lengthen them they will play even more upright.
Trying to see if we can get them somewhere closer to neutral to begin with
I just made my first TH-cam video and actually touched on this subject. Love it. But I have to ask two things. Getting the opportunity to listen to so many instructors, do you get information overload? And second, what do you think when someone tells you one method and then someone says the exact opposite information?
Where r u located?
@@BEBETTERGOLF Gilbert, Arizona
I have always thought flatter lie angles would be easier on a golfer's back with a little less side bend needed for a solid strike.
ABSOLUTELY! I think this part was edited out of the video... seems I remember talking about that.
ok, but with such a shallow swing, it would be a bit more difficult to compress your irons, right?
When i ordered my hogan icons last season i put 1° upright on my specs🤦♂️
But they still feel fine and i hit the shapes i need but i shouldve went a couple flat at least??
If you are happy with the way you are hitting it.. don't change. If you are not.. you might consider what we have been doing to help golfers at ABS.
@@lagpressure point taken. Thankyou. Before i got them i was playing mp-14s since i was 17 and noticed my divots would dig in toe first so thats what i went off of...
@@tonybarber420 that’s just your swing bro everyone has their comfort pga pros swing upright all day you think they have 6 degree flat clubs lol
@@boxerboy860 those are the guys with self taught swings or unconventional. Im talking classic swings and perfect swings son. Lol
@@tonybarber420 Im in that category then i have 2 upright
Which video is your lesson video?
Music to me ears as far as workin from the inside with the big back muscles... not steep with arm type swing. As a tennis and softball bomber
we're all waiting for the next bit, hopefully where it's you getting a lesson 🙂
This is awesome.
What about us guys at 5'8 what degree flatter should we try? I love experimenting
Interesting though
Hogan was 5/8 I think.. enough said really.
Very interesting. Since most clubs now are cast not forged and with cast most club fitters won’t risk more than 2o adjustment I think we will all have to consider a second set of old forged clubs with stiff shafts. I’ve never seen the argument before how flat clubs benefit direction and default to loft differences. Fascinating. Thanks.
This is actually what the scientists should be looking at... they don't test or investigate because the "theory" isn't even presented to them... I won't even get started on Trackman etc.. I'll spare you all for now...!
Once you get some classic forged clubs circa 40s-60s and have proper lie angles you'll never go back.
Or just go for gold dot pings
@@Frazer20 . Yes I thought of that. My ping code at present is orange.
@@Frazer20 i got fitted for green dot 2 degree upright and it hasn’t set well with me since I ordered them 3 weeks ago I’m right handed and feel I will pull left until I get used to them
I like this alot, but I can't afford his course. I can't even afford one module. For those who have plopped down the bucks, do you think it's beneficial, or do we get the jest of this method on youtube. (eg - flat swing/lie, lateral slide, hook/fade swing, etc) or iis it a lot of ground force theory, vectors, and other BS or is there a focus on drills that help?
The logic is mind blowing. This video could resurrect a movement back to flatter clubs. Next please.
Most people are probably just blinded by ads to hit it 50 yards farther.. and don't take the time to think about what needs to happen at impact. The greatest strikers played off flat lie angles.. so it's not a coincidence. Pick your own poison.
@@lagpressureName them and tell us how tall they were.
@@petermartinaitis8166 I did.... the ball doesn't care how tall you are.. the shaft is better to come in on a flatter plane. I showed clearly the advantages of it. If you don't think you can go that flat.. don't. But you will be at a disadvantage to a player who has adapted to flatter lie angles. Fortunately for you.. most golfers don't understand this.. so you don't have to worry about it.. but there is no denying the geometry of the advantage.
John, the flatter lie angle could be the perfect compliment to single-length irons, which I have and strongly endorse.
There is an argument for single length and an argument against it as well. When I was on tour, I experimented with setting up my 8/9/PW/SW all the same length and weight, but found I was not as accurate with my PW with an 8 iron shaft.... pretty important club, so I went back.
@@lagpressure Yes I would agree that in professional play, the distances need to be very exact.
Trackman can tell you what your lie angle is at impact. If that angle with a 6I is say 63 degrees should you get clubs more upright than standard or more flat than standard. And how many players are there out there who are at say 57 degrees lie angle at impact let alone 54 degrees which is the six degrees flat Erickson uses?
Your swing will quickly evolve to suit your gear. Most players are locked into upright swings because their clubs are upright. Trackman looks at the ball.. not the club. Not even an input algorithm for the mass of the clubhead yet alone acceleration or deceleration. Has no idea if I am hitting the ball with a loaded or unloaded floating shaft.. I mean.. note to scientists.. get up to speed with reality.
@@lagpressure Get a newer trackman. It does indeed look at the club as does GC Quad.
Just got new irons….bummer….. might have to bend my old irons as flat as they’ll go……Randy Smith always told me dang it-stand taller and closer
Your teaching is right if you have upright clubs. I would digress..
6’4” tall irons 2 degrees upright irons always headed left of green straight push left handed
If you watch old video of Seve, he used so many swing planes to control his ball flight. Genius with his plane.
What about us shorter guys? What lie angle do you suggest Brandon/John? Interesting stuff 👍🏌️⛳️
Go 8 flat.
Question for John: Do you prefer heavier irons with stiffer shafts, or heavier with weaker shafts? I have played 6 degree flat clubs for 15 years, and they definitely help you flatten and shallow your swing.
As one of John's students I can say he really likes stiff shafts. The biggest reason is to reduce shaft droop and deflection.
Love it
WoW great 👍
John, what is your advice here… I surmise your average audience is playing with the latest cast game improvement club that cannot change the lie angle more than a couple degrees? If I recall when I worked with you your clubs were a classic Wilson Staff forged blade that bend like butter. Also, with a flat lie will you address the low hands on the set up? I had to beg a Bay area club maker to bend my forged clubs 4 degree flat. He thought I was crazy being 6’3”…. He knew you and quit arguing and bent my clubs. Thanks
It works... right? 4 down should be fine at 6/4. Robbo did that also and flushed it.. he was also 6/4.. RIP (we all miss him)
How can I bend my fairway woods and hybrids flat?
Need ones with a long hosel, then heat them up with a blow torch and bend. The old Titleist PTs are great for this. I've done loads of these for John's students. There are threads on John's forum showing how to do it.
@@mikefrazier311 John's clubmaker in the US can flatten persimmons. I can do that in Europe, I can also flatten some metal woods 975Ds, PTs etc.
Great content, but like most of his videos thus far I'm left with many unanswered questions. Is 6 degrees flat standard for everybody? Does it not vary from person to person? And if so, how do you determine which is best for the individual??
I think it goes by what you naturally do. If you had a 6* flat lie angle you would have to adapt your swing in order to hit it straight. The flatter the lie angle the more open the clubface is. Hence the concept hook in and cut out. In my opinion and take it for what it's worth. Hogans' secret was simply put try everything you can in setup and swing to hook it with equipment designed to produce a cut with an exit through impact designed to cut it.
This is wild. A few weeks ago I gave up on upright and started with my old wrap-around flat swing and went from shooting 87-90 to 67-83.
Dropped 20 strokes in a few weeks?
That's cap
You don't just drop 20 from changing lie
Not 20, more like 8. 20 from best best to worst worst
67 front 9 and 83 back?
I understand where he's going with the shaft rotation but that's a limited 2 dimensional view. You also need to take into account shaft lean and compression.
who'd a thunk it, ping's clubfitting system could be wrong. i've been playing ping white dot 3 degrees up for 8 years which i was fitted for and seem ok i guess. i always thought the toe should be up a bit at address because the shaft flexes down and forward or maybe backwards too at some point. i'm 6' 0'' also. interesting discussion as always.
Club fitting SHOULD NOT be based upon address... only impact.. and only impact of where you SHOULD BE... not where you are with a poor golf swing (I'm just using that for example.. you might have a great swing!) But I can tell you.. swing the flattest lie angles you can handle. 4 degrees down for a 6/0 golfer is a breeze.
@@lagpressure that's very good info because over the last couple of years i've switched to a swing i developed on my own and from youtube videos and is a flatter pivot driven type swing where before i was more armsy type upright swing. i'll have to make lie board with some marking tape on the sole of my clubs to see where i'm at. i do have a couple of forged sets that i can have bent ajusted, you are the expert and thnx for the help.
Also don’t bend cast clubs +6 degrees! Lol if you do, try the 7 irons so you can get a replacement on the bay!
Can you make woods and hybrids this flat?
I bend Titleist 975Ds and PT fairway Woods flat for John's students. Done loads of them.
The Titleist surefit hosel only allows for .75 degrees flat adjustment from standard. Neil, how were you able to bend the 975D so flat?
@@admiraltamalak7559 I think Neil used a super hot blow torch on the titanium hosel.
@@ngascoigne What lie angle do you achieve with the 975Ds?
@@lagpressure Ah ok.
The basic problem with golf is that the conventional swing which has it’s roots back in the 1800s was developed around the limitations of hickory shafted clubs which twisted the face of the club open and shut during the swing and snapped under stress. This I know because as a kid I broke all my grandpa’s old Mashies and Niblicks. Byron Nelson developed the dual plane swing to take advantage of steel shaft bending, loading and unloading but still dragged club through ball with it compressing and decompressing off a face moving forward at 80+ MPH.
The better way to accelerate the ball which Harry Frankenberg (Count Yogi) discovered is to swing a golf club like a hammer or cracking a whip to get maximum acceleration of club head BEFORE impact and maximum rate of ball decompression off the face by locking and momentarily stopping the club face with the grip as face turns square to target which the ball reacts to like an unbelted passenger in a car moving 80mph of the driver slams on the brakes of hits brick wall, which is what a downswing feels like if one does not lift up the back foot to free the hips to turn past 45° open.
The biggest problem with that swing style is a propensity for snapping club heads off the shaft at the hosel which which could be remedied by redesigning how shaft connects to hosel but that is still done like it was back when golfers were whacking balls made out of leather and boiled goose feathers 🤷🏼♂️
Interesting that the old hickories and early persimmon woods were generally very flat. I have some 1930's persimmon woods that were set up at 48 degree lie angles. Some modern drivers I have seen are at 64 degree lie angles.
@@lagpressure The modern two-plane swing wasn’t used before the 1930s which might account for the shallower lie angles. Byron Nelson is credited with developing the technique of dropping the club down on a lower plane when he switched from hickory to steel shafted driver sometime in the early-mid-30s.
With any newer idea or concept of what the greats from yesteryear were doing in an effort to better understand should be proven out by the modern player. The modern pros of today have everything at their disposal to dissect and analyze any potential flaw in their swing. The concept of 6 degrees flat may work well for his particular swing. He is intentionally trying to swing it very flat, like that of Ben Hogan. The concept of the right angle of the shaft to the spine angle is very interesting. That concept can be proven out by many modern players. Tiger is very close to this right angle at about half way down with his hands, at 75 % of the way the shaft is intersecting his spine at an almost perfect 90* angle. Rory is very similar. So to extrapolate that further is the angle of your torso and shaft length more important to lie angle? It sure seems that one could stand more upright and bend a bit more at the waist to get this 90* angle. I definitely don't like the concept of adapting my swing to a flatter lie angle. I think it's easier to adapt your lie angle to what you more naturally do to achieve this 90* angle.
The ball prefers flatter shaft entry.. it's just geometry. I've spelled out the advantages in common easy to understand demonstration a 3rd grader could understand. Do as you wish.
I like this video
GOLD
I play with toe in the air cause I love a flat type swing.... scratch golfer and feel I work ball that style easily too lol fade or straight is no prob with toe up... its just how you think and draw of course is easy lol
I’ve heard that when inertia pulls on the club the toe will actually flatten out, the shaft is always flexing. It seems anyone can back up whatever they think because it works for them. And that’s the problem with golf everyone has an opinion and every one contradicts the other. That’s why the pros are so good with different types of swings, they all start young and just make their natural swing work. I can appreciate all of Brandon’s work but how can he focus on his swing when he’s getting a different concept every other month. Arm swing, body swing, upright, around, Malaska move, on and on, it’s the reason most can’t break 90.
This is actually what I’ve begun doing, too. Toe in the air, seems to work pretty well.
Best name i seen today lol
@@maeu59 what i’ve realised from watching, etc a bunch of different pros:
- zero instructors interpret or explain the physics correctly
- few are willing to teach more than one different style/method even though everyone accepts theres more than one way to swing a club
- all of these secret moves or whatever are actually often explaining the same or overlapping principles
- zero want to talk about mental exercises/training
- people often want to deal with a symptom directly, rather than address why it happened in the first place
@@maeu59 Brendon has a good thing going.. offers all these methods for consideration. Never heard of anyone doing this.. and he is very successful staying open and objective to so many opinions and theories.
The funny thing is your swing wasn’t flat at all. But the result was good. You just dropped it to the inside just like you would with your clubs. Go figure.
I have played clubs with a 4 degree variance at different times over the past couple of years due to experimentation. I just figured it out. But to shape the ball comfortably I need to be near what most call standard. The easiest way to close the face is to keep it closed and it will be square at impact with your body turn.
Length of the clubs has to match comfortably.
That would be a novice technique at best. Some success to some degree.
So basically ABS need different lie angles to work? Unless one is hitting of a tee?
It's all personal choice... find what you like.. but I just showed you the advantages as clearly and directly as I could. If you choose something else? Well...at least I told you.
@@lagpressure but you said you could almost not hit with Brandon's 7i, and that you would have to be steeper with it. So if Brandon wanted to implement ABS he needs to change his lie angle, or can he swing a steeper ABS swing?
@@ssubotai Brendon can do what he wants.. I just put out there the "clear as day" advantages of going flat lie angles. Brendon's swing is fairly upright.. so his clubs are also. Flat lie angles over time would flatten his swing just by design.
@@ssubotai But yes, I could not hit Brendon's 7 iron.. it's too upright for me. I would hit hard pulls long and left all day long.
@@lagpressure but do you think people who don't flatten their lie angles could benefit from the ABS method? Or is it a prerequisite for ABS?
It's weird how it seems like pros don't want amateurs to get better, I'm 5/11 and always felt like I needed flater lie but everything says I need upright. I couldn't use clubs more upright than what I have now.
But the way you’re loving the club wouldn’t the toe pointing up be upright? I know it’s an illustration
What does John have in the bag?
Currently playing Tommy Armour 985 with stock shafts (very stiff) and no offset (ideal). I don't play vintage for nostalgia, I play them for the better technology. More mass, no offset, flatter lie angles, stiffer shafts.. better feel, better feedback...better clubs. I will hit them much better than any modern irons I have seen. They certainly come make a better modern iron, but the clubs today are designed for hackers.. not Hogan.
@@lagpressure Thank you for the feedback.
@@lagpressure are they longer to compensate for the flatter lie??
@@benchinho No
We all watch videos to learn something from the game. As far as I'm concerned John's experience alone gives weight to what he is teaching and showing. Anyone can disagree, but whatever " you " say has really nothing to back that up. Other than you saying so. So why argue?
It's ridiculous, just watch maybe learn. If you have question ask. . I'm here to learn something. I'll let my swing decide if it's wrong or right.
Just for clarity. John is advocating a club face approaching impact “ open” then squaring it with the forearms aggressively as possible knowing it’s virtually impossible to hook the ball. On one of Brendan earlier videos with AJ Bonar , AJ said the same thing about Stan Leonard who actually set up with the club open so he could close it aggressively without fear of hooking.
Well, not exactly... I teach closing it with level shoulders... the forearm rotation does help things.. but they are like a door hitting a stop.. they don't roll over when the shoulders torso take over aggressively.
Set up a few degrees open because that is not impact yet. As the forces of the speed and weight of the clubface get to the ball, the clubface is still closing. We want it square at the point where the ball separates from the clubface, which is just past setup. If we set up square, the face will be closed at separation. If we set up closed, separation will be much further closed and going way left.
@@tiptopsaidhe Set up has little to do with what is happening at impact. I could start from the top of my swing with no set up.. so it's really about delivery and post impact intentions. Set up... there are things you can do to help you turn more.. or swing flatter... or help get the face opened up.
@@lagpressure That makes little sense to a tgm student. However, I do appreciate your activity here today. It's awesome. I have some old Hogan PCs and +4 hcp college goffer son, so this is going to be the next experiment. I'm moving the 5 iron (which is the same as his Apex 7 iron) to at least 4 flat, and going to the range. He has complained the last few tournament qualifiers (to include the USOpen) that he's missing greens left and long.
I can see the logic making sense for a little kid, like he alludes to, but if you already have a steep swing, all this will do is have you swinging that same swing but now with a too flat lie angle. Unless, the psychological aspect of trying to adapt to that lie angle is that strong?
Strange choice of intro music. Expected Paul Young to pipe up.. "it's Christmaaas tyyyyme... there's no neeed to be afraid!!"
😅
Stewart Cink 5 degrees upright. Tiger Woods 2 degrees upright. Ben Hogan mainly 2 degrees flat accept long irons which were 6 degrees flat.
I always cringe when I hear my mates who get fitted into upright lie angles. Drummond Golf here in Australia is the absolute worst for doing it, I don’t think they’ve ever fit someone for flat lie angles
Especially with hybrids!
I found one decent lad at drummond when i first started, the other dudes there were arrogant arseholes
Not defending DG but if trackman tells me my shaft lie angle is 62 degrees at impact should I get clubs with an upright or flat lie angle? And how many golfers do you know who have the shaft at say 56 degrees at impact.
@@forrestgardener8906 like John was saying - fit your swing to the proper club setup. If you want to use a hitting protocol, get your clubs set flat and work on your swing to match those dynamics
@@ocat1979 And who gets to say what the proper club setup is? And hitting protocol? That terminology is probably the worst hangover from TGM. Give it a rest.
Ok good luck to him. And everyone else talking about the machine golfer.
There's also "shaft droop" that will flatten a club's lie angle when swung at full speed.
Exactly, it’s not a hockey stick.
Not if you use stiff enough shafts... some but not much.. maybe 1 degree.. not 12.
@@lagpressure that’s why this video can be mis leading, how many guys are gonna want to run out and flatten their clubs now.
@@maeu59 There is nothing misleading about what I have said. I just fixed a 16 year old girl yesterday who was hitting horrible with her upright clubs.. she's 5/3 and was fitted with standard lie angles. I made up a set for her at 6 degrees flat and she was flushing it immediately.. no swing changes at all. She has a great swing and a former junior champion that has been struggling lately. She'll be fine now.
@@lagpressure clubs too upright is a plague. Fitters try to cure players slices by giving them upright clubs which often just makes their swings worse.
Also realize the lie angle effect is a function of loft.
Wedges and short irons are extremely affected.
If the toe is in the air at impact.. it will send the ball farther and farther left as the short irons get more lofted.. right when you need accuracy the most. Modern clubfitting that puts upright clubs into golfers hands because of some arbitrary chart on a wall is not helping golfers get better... it's hurting many of them actually..
@@lagpressure Exactly. 40 years of club building fitting tells me upright short irons are a huge problem. And what's the worst miss? Long left. Unless you like downhill left to right chips and putts. Lol.
I did the math once but I don't remember exactly what it was. Something like 2 degrees upright sends a 100 yard wedge 15 yards left. Something like that.
Just ridiculous.
And then we get into the unconscious adaptive fixes to stop it from happening that when done with long clubs destroys their playability.
People slice their long clubs because they have upright short irons.
You know what I mean John. I know you do.
@@555Trout Absolutely! I actually spared everyone of what I really think about all the upright nonsense. Seriously!
@@lagpressure I understand!
It actually makes me angry.
I get approached by people when I practice as you experience too I'm sure. A fellow was appreciating my chipping/ pitching recently and approached me and noticed my vintage r61 and handled it and noticed it's flat as hell. Which of course he had a lot of concern about and the dogma started flowing...
I realized I've had the discussion 1 billion too many times and just couldn't do it.
Just makes me mad at this point. Cause things shouldn't be this screwed up.
@@555Trout So, in a "for instance" scenario, one has done the lie board with every club and been adjusted accordingly for each. Should the 9 iron and wedges be moved 1 degree flatter by default, based upon your experience? Your reply is appreciated.
Quick , Ping gold dot !!
The bending of the 975Ds: what sort of lie angle is being achieved?
I bent the first one down to 48 degrees, so that is possible. But I found that 52/53 was flat enough.
@@ngascoigne Thanks Neil. Several of the Wishon drivers over the years have long hosels that are deliberately made bendable. Stock is around 58 degs but they are advised as +or- 4 degs adjustable. So 54 is achievable/orderable and I've bent them further flat to 52 degs. Interestingly Bang Golf have a driver model for seated/disabled golfers that is 42 degs lie. Possibly they could commission something in between that and a modern driver.
You can buy an old 975D for 30 quid, so if you snap it, you've not lost much.
love this but it opposes the vertical shoulders of lets say J. Neimen
Wow light bulb moment 💡
Hitting off the deck forreal
What about fairway woods! Way too upright. Flatter lies and single length.
With the Malaska move I’m curious what lie Mike plays with.
it's good to see someone teaching TOTAL BEN HOGAN technique. most of the guys on tour for the last 30 years have been doing the flippy hands thing ... which, as this guy says, comes down to all timing. all timing is hard to do and is not controlled...it's very inconsistent...and not accurate.
Similar to aj boner's move "truth about golf" you had son the channel
Yeah, the little home run move
Aha moment!
Interesting observation but too many assumptions that this is all "good". For example, most golfers who take it back flat return the club steep or OTT. So the argument at 6:26 that this promotes a flat backswing could just as easily be argued as a bad thing. Also, think of this - if you impact the ball with the toe too up, the result is a thin shot or worse, a shank. This is why you chip toe down, is it not? I'd rather hit one or two shots a round that were too toe down and resulted in a weak fade than thin one over the green or shank it. The lie should be adjusted to the swing, not the other way around.
Your swing style dna will dictate your lie angle
I guess this is why Ballesteros putted with the toe up?
If the heel digs in first and sends the ball left, the club lie is too upright. If the toe digs in first and opens the face to send the ball right, the lie is too flat. If neither of those are happening the lie is just right. I don't think it needs to be any more complicated than that.
So......are you fitting the club to your current swing, or fitting it to the swing you want?
@@pgadarelpgadarel8639 I'm saying the former and John is saying the latter. It's been my experience after playing for many many years that your swing is is your swing and is unique to you. Trying to swing like someone else or how someone else tells you to swing is hard to do. For example if you swing the club upright and someone says you should try swinging flatter that's just going to confuse you. Why not change the things that are easiest such as set up or a good club fitting. Things you can change before you ever take the club back.
JE - again you have the physics a bit mixed up. Please check out Dr Sasho Mackenzie's article 'What is ‘rate of closure’ and can it help your golf swing?'. ROC is a complex matter and just making your swing inclination flatter will actually increase ROC but it's far more complicated. Your explanation is too simplistic and doesn't cover all the other variables that can be involved.
Note what he says about swing plane inclination
How to change your Rate of Closure, #2: Change the “incline plane” of your swing
The club is swung down and around the body on the forward swing, which presents the Inclined Plane knob. Turning this knob to zero would result in moving the clubhead in a vertical plane like a Ferris wheel (0° from vertical). At a driver speed of 90 mph, an Incline Plane knob turned up to 30° from vertical (a steep move through impact) contributes about 800 °/s to RoC. Cranking the knob up to a relatively flat 45° from vertical, increases the contribution to 1200 °/s. There may be reasons to change the pitch of your swing, but reducing RoC shouldn’t be one of them. Tour players tend to have relatively similar vertical swing planes with driver (40° to 45° from vertical) and most amateurs are too vertical already.
Great, I just bought new PXG's 2 degrees upright...fml
Might try just scooting back a little and having the toe up at address. I’m no pro, but that’s what I’ve been doing and seems pretty decent.
Does taking the toe up at address then cause the shot to automatically start left from changing the face orientation?
You have to be really careful that the clubface is square or even a tad open at address. I think the key is rolling your left forearm in the backswing. That helps me make sure my club is neutral through the impact. I use Hogan’s feet placement grid, also.
@@hudedwards8943 Not good..
@@bradd9138 YES!
6 degrees flat is far too extreme , clubs should be made to fit you not the other way around.
That is strictly your opinion. Not based upon fact, science or geometry. Flat lie angles give you a significant advantage. You stay upright, not me. Anyone can adapt their swing to flatter lie angles if you swing the club correctly. Flatter swings give more power also and easier on the back and body. I'm 6/0.... 6 degrees flat and I'll take your money on the golf course. Disagree? Come prove me wrong.
@@lagpressure Why are you so aggressive when someone disagrees with you? Very unprofessional. You're a former low-rank professional golfer challenging Average Joe amateurs to skins matches in youtube comments sections because they disagree with you.
Grow up bro.
@@electricalstuff259 Because I am right.. simple.
@@electricalstuff259 I walk my talk. If you want to prove me wrong.. let's play. When are you ready? Bring your accountant...
@@electricalstuff259 I had a guy take me up one time on a bet. We both left $1000 cash in the pro shop.. and he said he was a plus 1 and thought I was some kind of snake oil salesman. I took him for $700 and never heard from the guy again. So I see it as doing a good deed for society. One less internet troll. He brought all the latest clubs etc.. and I played persimmon and clubs older than I am. I kept hitting fairways and greens, he kept making bogies and complaining about the greens. Fun day. I don't fear anyone or anything golf related. Only great white sharks when kayaking in the ocean.
Alright!
1. Bend my stealth driver hosel to 6 flat
2. tip my ventus velcore a foot
3. add a shaft extender or 3 to the butt.
4. Add 253 grams of lead tape to the 200 gram head to get to 16 ounces
Got it!!
None of this matters if you can’t compress the ball imo. Haven’t figured out that trick yet.
ABS Modules 1 - 3. We start right on increasing compression.. not grip, stance and posture.
@@lagpressure Or youtube, where it's free and not $1500.
@@electricalstuff259 Good luck...
@@lagpressure You're so correct that nobody on tour does what you suggest. You bitter, washed up loon.
Who picks up the balls?
John gets them 2x a year after hired goats eat the canyon
Todays lie is 3+ UP from John’s blade days. the lie board could be the culprit
Yeah i'm not paying like $15,000 to get online 'instruction' from this guy. Instruction has to be 1 on 1.
Enjoy your endless search of band aids.
@@lagpressure Don' you discount personal lessons if the guy agrees to pick the range