Another way I learned it: Red - Do not proceed Yellow - Proceed with caution Green - Proceed From top to bottom, signals: A - Full Speed B - Medium Speed (40km/hr?) C - Low speed (15? 20?) The colours then indicate how to proceed at the given speed. Sort of? Maybe?
For a start, it was the state owned Victorian Railways which adopted that system, based on some railway company in the USA, but I forget which one. To most outsiders, it seems unnecessarily complicated and achieves little more than Sydney’s system which is far less complicated.
I actually just noticed that you are ‘to blame’ for me doing this video 😊 but it will save me the trouble of explaining signals in the future. I am amazed just how popular it is!
It gives more possible speed choices and can result in more trains safety running faster and closer together although Victoria’s system seems excessively confusing.
Victoria is based on some wacky American system. Even after making the video, I barely remember some of the explanations. Sydney is much simpler. Two greens, as fast as the track limit allows. And to reds, stop. Between the two there are a couple of logical steps, each one requiring less speed than the last. Some people have mentioned the British system, but signalling systems are outside my interest.
If you guys want some information on how these signals are used, here you go. On most lines outside of the city, all signals have permanent red lights on the "B" light. Drivers will get Green/Red signals for the majority of the singals. (Indicating full speed ahead if you forgot) When there is a stop (red Signal) coming up, they will get a Yellow/Red Signal. (Indicating full speed ahead but prepare to stop) Then the stop will be a red/red signal. In more congested areas like the city, or lines like the Frankston line with frequent trains, it will work differently. Again, the signals will be Green/Red unless a stop is coming up. When a stop is coming up, a Yellow/Green Signal will be given. (Continue at full speed but be at 40 km/h before next signal) The next Signal after this will be a Red/Yellow (Max speed of 40 km/h and prepare to stop at the next Signal.) Then the stop Signal will be a red/red. Other uses: When a train needs to change tracks, the Yellow/Green Signal will be provided to warn drivers to slow down to 40 km/h before the next Signal. The Signal before the change in tracks will be a Red/Green signal if they do not need to stop at the next Signal. The Signal before the change in track could be a Red/Yellow if they DO need to stop at the next Signal. The Signal after the change in track will be a green/Red unless a red signal is coming up. Another way to remember the signals is like this. Green/Red - Clear and full speed Red/Green - Clear and 40 km/h speed Yellow/Red - Next Signal "Stop" but you get to go full speed until you get there. Red/Yellow - Next Signal "Stop" and you have to stay below 40 km/h until you get there. Yellow/Green - Go from full speed, to 40 km/h before the next Signal. Red/Red - Stop. Red/Red/Yellow - Shunt at 15 km/h.
I used your notes sent to Comments some time ago as well as Vicsig information in compiling this video as well as my drivers. Thanks. Probably in 2 weeks time I expect to publish the ‘Completed’ Frankston project and the signal aspects are once again covered with notes. Seeing them all along the line as the run continues tends to make more sense as the need for their different aspects become apparent when the approaches to junctions etc. are seen. Please email me on tressteleg(at)icloud.com Use the normal symbol instead of (at).
For anyone still confused, try this website which tells you basically all you need to know about rail in Victoria vicsig.net/index.php?page=infrastructure§ion=signalling
Generally speaking, with three position home signals, you can think of it this way a) track status (ie, clear or occupied/obstructed) b) points (if any, are set for the move) c) maximum speed d) next signal With automatic signals, it's the same, apart from the provision for points, as automatics don't ever protect points. Hope that helps a bit
If you were a driver, knew the line and drove these lines every day, I'm sure these signals would make a lot more sense, however, not being from Melbourne and not being familiar with the network, it's still a bit confusing. I'm much happier with Perth signalling. You've got green = go, yellow = caution (next signal red) red = stop. This is the same on both controlled and auto signals. You've got low speed shunt signals on some controlled signals for access into sidings, (you've also got some stand alone shunt signals at certain locations) and you've got either feather route indicators or theatre route indicators for diverging routes at junctions. DONE
@@tressteleg1 Feather route indicators are a set of 5 white lights mounted to the top of a signal at 45 degrees, and, when the diverging route is set, and the signal is cleared to either a yellow, green or low speed shunt, the 5 white lights will come on as well, telling the driver they are taking that route. The feather route indicator can be mounted either 45 degrees left, or 45 degrees right, depending on the direction of the diverging route. If the signal clears, and the feather route indicator does not come on, you are taking the main. If multiple routes can be selected from the same signal, you can have up to 6 route indicators mounted on one signal, (although, in practice, ive only ever seen 3 mounted on one signal) with one being mounted at 45 degrees, one at 90 degrees underneath, and the final at 135 degrees underneath that. (If all the routes diverge right from the main). If you have one left diverging route and two right diverging routes, then you'll have one feather mounted 45 degrees left, one 45 degrees right and the final one 90 degrees right. Hope that makes sense.
@Kirrily Ferngrove the political references imply another age than this current one. was your uncle a proud member of the afule, victorian branch, which, according to my dad, was one of the first, if not the very first drivers union in the world, the creator of the first superannuation scheme for blue collar workers in this country, and also never went on strike for anything other than safety issues?
I think I'll stick to my NSW safeworking, it seems simpler. Thanks for the video though. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into explaining it.
It was not too bad. I got help from a driver. I’m working on another video on the Frankston line. I’ll probably do some memory joggers when Signals appear along the ride. It could help us all.
These signals are technically known as three position automatic signals (upper quadrant). They are used throughout Victoria on double line sections and single line ATC sections. Each of the aspects has a specific definition... RED / RED - Stop or "Red Light" YELLOW / RED - Normal Speed Warning GREEN / RED - Clear Normal Speed RED / YELLOW - Medium Speed Warning RED / GREEN - Clear Medium Speed YELLOW / GREEN - Reduce To Medium Speed RED / RED / YELLOW - Low Speed Caution or just Low Speed If the signal displays any other combination than those above, it's considered defective and treated as if at STOP. In normal speed areas where the "B" light is just a small red light, it is often referred to as a "marker light". "Reduce To Medium Speed" is usually seen before diverging points and may be accompanied by a route indicator. In addition to shunting, "Low Speed" can also be used to bring a train into an occupied section to assist a defective train, or onto an occupied platform in order to couple two 3-cars sets into a 6-car set. A Home signal may display an illuminated red letter "A" when at STOP. This indicates that the particular Home signal is normally controlled by a signal box/panel but the signal box/panel is currently "switched out" and as a result the Home signal may be treated like an an Automatic Signal.
I think (and hope) that the only people on earth not confused are Melbourne train drivers! I’ve been adding signal information to the Melbourne train videos for years, but still have to look up most of the indications to see what they mean!
Your explanation of "reduce to medium" (yellow over green) isn't quite accurate. It's not a first warning of a stop aspect. The instruction is a) the section ahead is clear b) the maximum is the track speed, c) next signal shows a medium speed (40km/h unless otherwise indicated) aspect. Generally this would mean you'll be diverging through points.
Thank you for the video, quite interesting. And surprising from a German perspective: Here it would be inconceivable to have any red light in anything but a stop aspect. And the co-actor signals are just repeaters for better driver visibility? Oh and lol on just repeating the video. Made me laugh. :)
Hello to Germany! People in other states agree with you about a red light being included in a full speed display. However the basic two lens signals in Sydney are Green/Green, full permitted speed. Green/Yellow, keep your eyes on the next signal which is likely to be Green/Red which means the next signal is Red/Red, you must stop. There is a bit more but that is the basics. Re Co-actor signals, while they do in fact repeat the signal above in places where it would be difficult to see the main signal due to its height above the train especially at the end of a station, the word Repeater has a totally different meaning for trains running out from the city in country areas. They do not show the same as the basic signal and are much too complicated to try to understand. At present I am doing a Driver’s View Frankston Line Video and tying in the signals seen with what the little Explained video ‘teaches’. It gets interesting when the train in front can be seen a long way away. You may also be interested in one of my other videos taken closer to your home - Cab Rides Electric Locos Black Forest, a region which I am certain you would know of 😊
you'll probably never see this but does it need to be this complicated? Why did they design it to be confusing? I guess drivers will just get used to it, and you'll probably pick it up pretty fast, but it's the 21st Century in a developed country surely there's a better way of doing it.
Yes notifications do come in, and I do my best to reply to all comments. From what I heard, the Melbourne system follows some railroad in the USA. The point is that different signal indications control speeds, whereas other states manage quite well with fixed speed boards beside the track. I totally agree, it is unnecessarily complicated. But their drivers manage. Nevertheless every time I do a video from Melbourne with signals, I have to look up my notes.
Thanks, I was kind of picking bits up from other vids, but this really helped. initially they really did my nut in, multiple lamps on, what..... The main one now is why do they refer to them as 'aspect'
I might be dumb but I cannot understand how Green over red can mean proceed at clear normal speed. Red always indicates stop in any language. As a New South Welshman, clear ahead is green and in double light territory, it is green over green!!
Well Done, and congratulations on your recent birthday! I hope that my video helps you learn the signals a bit faster. If you find any faults in what has been written, I would be interested to know. I hope you enjoy driving trains although Metro may not always be the nicest nicest bosses to have.
Great video as usual. Back in my VR days , we called them co-acting , not co actor, signals.Are there any semaphore signals left in the metro area? I think Broad gauge Cragieburn to Tallarook is semaphore and double line block.Also during my SG days (1969-1974) if a home signal was red/red , protecting a grade crossing, the previous automatic was also red/red. From memory this occurred at Bowser, when Everton and beyond branches were operating ,Benalla Loop which had the oil siding branch ( remnants of Tatong branch) through it as well as Tallarook on the up for Cathkin and beyond.The preceding auto signal was on the up ruling grade and it was very difficult to move the train after stopping. In those days it was regulation 74A.Normally if arrival home signal was red/red or red/red/yellow (low speed) the previous auto was yellow/red.. (Confused? )
The assisting driver called then co-actor. Perhaps that is what they are taught today. He made no mention of semaphores in metro area. As I said elsewhere, this is complicated enough without including country lines but thanks for the info.
@@tressteleg1 no more semaphore in the metro controlled area. There are still some old ones standing around but they are out of use and gathering rust. I know there are a couple on the upfield line.
More or less. They are to stop any train that passes a signal showing STOP. Also coming into underground stations you will see extra trips. As the train ahead moves away, those trips will go down one by one. These let a following train safely get close to the one in front, if the driver is not going faster than the arms go down.
When compared to railroad signals used in the contiguous US (CONUS), I think of: - a small yellow being equivalent to a grey (lunar) light - diagonal signals being equivalent to a signal that is not an absolute one (albeit with non-absolute ones -> treatment of red as going at very slow speed, being prepared to stop within half the distance the train driver can see) - vertical signals being equivalent to absolute signals I thank Danny Harmon, the Florida-based Distant Signal TH-cam man, for his video explanations of such signals.
These tram signals don’t really relate to train signals whose main purpose is to keep trains apart and occasionally handle junctions. These fancy singles were supposed to help tram drivers avoid mistakes where there is a junction. However tram drivers and former drivers like myself saw them as just B.S. and in fact a few weeks after I took the video at Port Junction, two trams collided there, then soon after those unnecessary signals were turned off, and all trace is now gone. The left or right or horizontal (stop) usual indicators remain. However if you want to get stuck into some needlessly complicated signals, maybe you will enjoy the link below showing the signal system (US based I believe) covering the electric rail network of Melbourne. Melbourne Train Signals Explained I Hope! th-cam.com/video/U9VM3fkJ6Bg/w-d-xo.html
@@tressteleg1 The link you provided me is of the same video that I viewed. Those I'm about to provide are of videos from the Distant Signal TH-cam man: - How To Read CSX Signals (SBD Sys) PART 1: th-cam.com/video/2xgSuvh28XI/w-d-xo.html - How To Read CSX Signals Part 2: th-cam.com/video/qiGjt4xUPlY/w-d-xo.html - How To Read CSX Signals Part 3: th-cam.com/video/vON6npnWHpY/w-d-xo.html (including, at the beginning, dwarf signals) - How To Read Signals On The CSX Part 4: th-cam.com/video/87yB8E3wh3M/w-d-xo.html (including explanation, a bit over a minute in, of yellow over green [a so-called "approach medium" signal]) - How To Read Signals On The CSX Part 5 - ABS Signals: th-cam.com/video/mGBx2uL117o/w-d-xo.html (on signals that have number and letter plates that make such signals permissive ones [e.g. red meaning go slow unlike stop as with a so-called "absolute signal") - How To Read CSX Signals Part 6: th-cam.com/video/P30iVDmOfjU/w-d-xo.html (including discussions of dwarf signals and doll arms)
@@wainber1 Sorry about the misunderstanding. The notifications I get usually don’t have a video title and it’s easy to guess the wrong thumbnail. There is a lot of viewing you have sent me and a lot of time has been lost lately with a car insurance claim, putting me behind with other computer activities, but I will check these links in due course.
@@wainber1 Hi. I watched all of these a short time ago and apart from the use of three aspects, I could see some similarities with Melbourne where some indications determine maximum speeds in some situations. Something that you may have noticed with some Melbourne signals is that the two aspects are vertical above each other. Those are controlled by signal boxes and must not be passed at stop unless specifically advised to do so. However some may have a little A which when illuminated advises that the signal box is switched out and the signal is automatic. Otherwise automatic signals which have no input from a signal box have the two aspects offset from each other making it perfectly clear from a great distance that it is an Automatic signal. Something that we do not have is signals that are only illuminated when there is a train nearby. That would be considered an unsafe practice here where every signal will default to the stop position in the case of a malfunction. Also when a signal is out of sight around a curve, it is normal for a repeater signal, in most cases showing the same aspect as the hidden signal, to be placed some distance away giving the train driver an advance warning of what is out of sight. One thing I’m pleased we don’t have here is the long winded level crossing warning whistling. Just a single toot is considered sufficient although the Whistle posts, a white X on a post in Melbourne in my opinion is placed much too far away from the actual crossing and of no use at all. Consequently some drivers give another toot when much closer, especially if they consider there is any risk of a motorist not seeing they are there. Sydney signals, with which I am much more familiar as I grew up there, and years ago did a fair bit of artificial suburban train driving, very much simpler and if you are interested and have the time, you’ll see them in a recent video. I will send the link separately.
It all reminds me of the infamous and imaginary safeworking system we used to refer to in NSW in the 1970’s - “Rafferty’s No Wire Block” 🤣 Makes just as much sense to me...
tressteleg1 I should have added that my lack of comprehension is no criticism of your valiant efforts - it’s just that purple = SNCF = brain explosion! Much enjoy your cab ride videos, thanks 😃
If you look at many of the other comments, plenty of people are befuddled as well. Even after making that video, I could not pass any test about what they all mean. There are plenty more train and tram Driver’s View videos to come.
Yup, signal 2R with a 40 Km/h curve board at the down end of no. 2 platform. Note: the end of the double line at FTG marks the beginning of the single line ATC section to Belgrave. Upper Ferntree Gully is the "control station" and Upwey is an "unattended crossing station".
In the 1930s the UK railway used a system of 'speed' signalling at Mirfield which had a combination of red, yellow and green lights to indicate speed and direction at junctions. It didn't last long.
Some of the default signals in Trainz are based on this system i think and there are standard and searchlight models while here in Indonesia, it’s mostly 2 to 3 aspect signals with accessories like speed displays (in most cases showing 30 km/h), direction indicators (usually for exit signal) or a triangle display indicating emergency movement, shunting signals are pretty much standard 1 red 2 white and by law the poles must be painted Yellow black for visibility
Hi tressteleg1. Last week you wrote me under my rreply to your other cabview video that you had also made a video about the signalsystems. I just rembered to watch it. Now I understand it. It is much like US and Canadian systems. There is another video with similar explenation: th-cam.com/video/9ObGxbxZAxg/w-d-xo.html Here in the Netherlans we adapted US signalsystem but simplified it. Only 3 basic aspects (red, yello and green) and on some signals completed by speed indications. Tnx for this explenation.
That was nicely done, but it is still a complicated system. Sydney is much simpler. This video of mine shoes how the Signals interact with the train. Runs for 50 minutes. th-cam.com/video/qDX985joyeA/w-d-xo.html. Two greens means flat out. Two reds mean stop with green over yellow followed by Green over red indicate next is red over red.
As an old VR Driver, your term for the top Yellow is a bit misleading. "Full speed but ready to stop at next signal". We were taught on passing a top yellow, proceed with caution and act on the aspect of the next signal even from a standing start. However, it's a great video & the safety standards are still in place today from when I drove for the VR & Met-Rail.
Possibly suburban trains are more responsive with braking than longer locomotive trains so there could be different interpretations for each. This is what a current suburban driver had to say: “From vicsig which is i think (from memory) the wording from the current rule book. YELLOW over RED NORMAL SPEED WARNING Indicated by a yellow light above a red light. When "Normal Speed Warning" is displayed the driver must be ready to stop at the next signal. I'd be inclined to let it rest or refer back to Vicsig.” “
Oh My! Always wondered what on earth they meant. Why make something simple when you can make it confusing instead? Definitely not taking up train driving in Melbourne...! 😕 Thank you Mr T. 👍
I understand your outlook entirely! However the training course is quite comprehensive, and after looking at those signals day after day for months, by the time you qualified you would probably have some sort of reasonable understanding of their meanings. Also you would be driving every line many times and would know where the next signal might be hidden around the corner, where a junction for slow speed is etc so each signal would be little more than a gentle reminder of what to expect next.
Thanks very much, however that are more complicated that the Sydney system Red over Red followed buy Green over Red then Green over Orange followed by Green over Green (full Speed) turnouts are Red over Orange or Orange over Orange.
Agreed. I grew up in Sydney and theirs was/is much simpler. Generally speed limits were set by little boards beside the track, not part of signalling. You may enjoy a future video on the Frankston line where I add a refresher to the Signals explained video.
Yellow over green is - caution to medium speed ( going through turnout in section after) Red over yellow is - caution medium speed ( going through turnout and be prepared to stop at next signal at stop )
Different railways have different meanings for repeater signals but I am certain that the Melbourne co-acting signal is near ground level and is an exact copy of a signal above it which a driver at a station may not be easily able to see above him.
Tressteleg1 - thank you so much! I dont know how TH-cam found me (putting one of your vids in my 'recommendation feed'), but for these journies, and how trains / trams evoke memories of a calmer, childlike life - I'm glad they did.
Its great that you have enjoyed this. If you can find my Playlists, you may heaps more you like under a few categories. More playlists will follow when I have time.
I’m sure the drivers understand the signals inside out, but I am not a train driver so there is no need for me to learn. But it is rather confusing with all the options.
1 month after this was posted i have taken the time to read all comments. i'd be confused anywhere in the world. i think i saw a show about the tgv or shinkansen or something else where conventional signals come up too quickly because of train speeds. so there are information screens in the cab. why not put this stuff in all trains. if the systems were to incorporate gps info it would allow for closer running and scrap the expense of all the miles and kilometres of trackside wiring for signal lights that may have different meanings even within a single system. put it in the new trains then instal it in the older stuff. country locos have something called ice radios. i don't know if they have such features.
You may be amazed that Melbourne trams use an ancient system of radio transmitters along the route, a system in use in the 1980s and maybe earlier. GPS was considered, but was useless amongst all the tall buildings in the city centre. While GPS may work okay in flatter countryside, from what I gather the satellites are a bit low on the horizon so there could be black spots in hilly countryside. Disastrous. In cab signal displays are not new overseas. Besides giving more warning time for high-speed trains, the concept is also useful for trains running in the thick fog which is less of a problem there. And the biggest drawback with all wonderful technology is the cost. Maybe a signals engineer will read your comment and have something to say.
@@tressteleg1 , well, i bought gps speed indicators for my cars and they are great but, as you point out don't always work. like tunnels (there is one in perth) and one particular street in a suburb i frequent. i'm fascinated to hear of a radio system in melbourne trams
Of course you realise that railway signals that would only work spasmodically would certainly lead to a disaster. When some obvious solution to a problem is not used, usually if there is a damn good reason for that which we might never think of. To learn more, do a Google search for Melbourne trams AVM. Let me know if you still have further questions.
I have a friend in Yarra trams in their head office who has access to a certain amount of information. I realise that especially government organisations can be slow in adopting new technology but in this case it seems very likely that this 1978 equipment is the best existing at the moment. If you want to know more, it might be best if you contact me using. tressteleg(at)icloud.com Use the normal symbol instead of (at)
@@tressteleg1 ,you are obviously obsessive compulsive in your quest for knowledge about things in which you have an interest - just like me. you think the tram avm is great. i fully trust your opinion. you haven't directly answered the question i asked. i think that gives me the answer.
A nicely presented, basic understanding of commonly used signals. There are more than just color combinations, positioning is also important, and flashing any of the lights can also introduce other meanings. We also can affix plates to the mast that gives that signal permanent restrictions, and that can affect what the rule is to be obeyed. When being tested on the CROR for rules and signals, you have to remember word-for-word what the rule is, as it is written. I don't know if a spelling mistake would sink you, but missing or misplacing a word would. They expect no deviation in rule or signal communication, and I think rightly so. One changed or omitted word concerning a signal or an operating rule, could, and has in the past, led to tragedy. One, two, three light heads on a mast is not unusual. Lunar white, blue are quite rare and would be displayed (if needed) on a separate, dedicated head. The use of co-actors is unusual up here. I have not seen it, but cannot say that it is never done. They could and should take that idea in a few select locations where trains cannot possibly see home signals around long swept corners, and must rely on prior indication and radio communication from RTC to advise when they have a more permissive indication and are able to proceed. That style of signal, mounted at that approximate height, is seen in subways, as overhead signalling would be rather impractical. Here is a link to a page where someone has taken the time to illustrate most of the signals one might encounter on a Canadian Rwy. www.okthepk.ca/foamerFiles/signals.htm .
Thanks for all of that. To me, there seems to be an excessive number of signal combinations shown in your link. Sydney’s are much simpler with mostly just 2 colours showing. Maybe speed boards are used at junctions where some must be taken more slowly than others. I never expected much interest in this video so I am amazed by numbers and especially interest from overseas. I only made it up from scenes already held by me and was in response to occasional requests for Melbourne signal explanations.
Thanks for your response. Trains have speed limits here, depending on their purpose, their makeup (contents or cargo), location (some towns or cities demand that through-freights slow down to help abate noise, and lessen impacts if ever there should be a derailment, heaven forbid.... Also, track conditions, track work, sometimes weather (high winds or water) can affect speeds too. Signage is posted in some places, but posted speeds are often overruled by other conditions, so the operating crews must be paying attention to train orders, signals, sudden changes and new orders called over the radio by the Rail Traffic Controller. I hope one day to get to Australia for a look around. The NSW-area would be high on the list, any other areas you might suggest ?
In Melbourne the normal maximum speeds must be learned by the drivers as part of their training. As you can see, the signals modify that in various ways. I’m more familiar with Sydney where Yellow reflectorised speed boards are placed at and after all curves and vary according to sharpness etc. When track quality requires a reduced speed, First there is a Warning sign with the speed shown, and about one kilometre later a Caution Board where the limit starts, and later a Clearance Board. I expect that these changes are shown in the depots where crews are based. I think all freight trains are limited to 80km/h, passenger trains up to 160km/h including the Tilt Trains in Queensland on 3’ 6” gauge. I think that all states here more or less do things similarly. As for the best places to visit, it depends on where your interests lie. All capital cities have electrified railways of various sizes. Newcastle NSW has heavy coal traffic. Central Qld has many km of electrified track for 10,000 tonne coal trains with 3 electric locos, one front and the other two along the trains. All these Railways are state owned, some parts privately operated. In the northwest of West Australia there are a number of private iron or railways with massively long trains. Few fans go there as it is so remote.
Thanks for that as I've been looking for info for a while. After watching I still don't see why they need the under light they could easily just use normal traffic lights, it looks more like they have just been slapping together the system over the last 100 years. I live next to FTG station so I'm going to watch the arm go down next time. I've never noticed it, them boom gates always stuff up and I've been here for 25 years and still between the light and boom gates they go hey wire.
The reason for having the 'B' light is for redundancy, if the 'A' light fails (remember, the system as a whole predates LED lighting), the 'B' light shows the location of the signal and the single red light means the train MUST STOP. This form of redundancy is especially important at night, as there aren't the multiple heads of vehicular intersections. Also, the signalling system is actually based on the most common form of American railroad signalling.
@@cswvna any irregular aspect means stop. Including failed lights. If you only see one light, you stop. The purpose of 3 position signals is to give you more information about the track ahead. Frankston is the only place in the metro network that still uses 2 position which doesn't tell you much. 3 position tells you, speed, information about the next signal, whether the track ahead is occupied and how the points if any are set.
With regard to using "normal traffic lights", it should be noted that some signals have a separate light for each colour but these are arranged in reverse order to road traffic lights to prevent confusion. ie green on top, then yellow, and red at the bottom.
As far as I know. Stop. Then move ahead and reset the trip which has just stopped the train. Then go ahead slow enough to easily stop your train again before hitting any train or thing in front of you. Or ‘Trip’ past the next red signal etc.
I thought you would be able to work this out. Obviously if there is a broken down train around a sharp corner which you can’t see, you must be able to stop without hitting it. But if there is a simple signal failure, there is no reason to sit there forever so you keep going carefully until something else stops you such as a home signal or broken train. Or you might get right past all the broken signals then carry on.
Victorian Railway signals are simple to understand. If you think these are complicated, have a look at Swiss Type L signals or some of the experimental German colour light systems, which often display four or more lights where both the colour and the arrangement of the lights indicates the aspect. For example, in Switzerland, three green lights in a vertical line above two green lights at an angle with a yellow light below to the right means Proceed at 90 km/h, and expect the next signal to also display Proceed at 90 km/h.
@@tressteleg1 It's actually less confusing than it sounds. Much of the English-language literature on railway signalling only focuses on the differences between British and American practices, and completely ignores Central European practices, which were often based on German ideas. In the Germanic sphere of influence, there's a strict separation between Train movements (timetabled) and Shunting movements (ad-hoc), and every signal for a train movement (a Main signal) must have an associated Distant signal. When the distance between two Main signals is too short to have a separate Distant, the two signals are combined on the one post but still treated individually. In the Swiss Type L system, three green lights in a vertical line is a Main signal aspect that means Proceed at 90 km/h, and two inclined green lights with a yellow light below right is a Distant signal aspect announcing the same. Taken together you get the combined aspect. There's a good overview of Swiss (and Austrian) signalling here: xover.mud.at/~invisible/mirror/sig/asr/ensigchsysl.html Wolfgang Meyenberg has a great description of German signalling on his page: sh1.org/eisenbahn/index.htm Joern Pachl has written an introduction to German block and interlocking principles: www.joernpachl.de/German_principles.htm (you'll probably have to copy and paste the URLs)
@@tressteleg1 You can see an example of that signal indication at 33:00 on this video from Zürich to Basel: th-cam.com/video/2zIxULExXdM/w-d-xo.html . The triangular junction at Olten is set up for 90 km/h on two of the three sides, and trains heading towards Basel pass a rather weird signal (even by Swiss standards) that I believe can display only Expect Stop and Proceed at 90 km/h.
These signals are actually quite easy compared to other countries' signalling such as France and Germany.....reading up on those (which I have had to do for Train simming) almost makes your head explode.
Sometimes the complexities of some systems seem pointless. Maybe my video ‘Cab Rides Electric Locos Black Forest’ will show some signals familiar to you.
I agree some systems do seem needlessly complex...but there are many reasons why they are the way they are. For someone like myself not in the industry and reading up on it all just for hobby purposes it does seem pointless...but with extensive training it all becomes second nature.
Purple was used on dwarf signals until the late 60s, and experimentally also used on disc signals in a number of locations. It's a shorter wavelength of light so it isn't as visible over longer distances, and is less likely to be confused with the red of home signals as a result. Blue and purple are commonly used to indicate Stop for shunting movements worldwide. What I find weird about Victorian railway signalling is that point indicators also used a red/green distinction rather than graphical indications as was done in Central Europe. I sometimes get the impression that Victorian railways practices were an awkward mix of British and American concepts that ended up together as if by accident.
Kirrily Ferngrove The Driver who guided me also told me that the Blue lights are still called Purple because they used to be that colour. I suppose that Epping with so many sidings could well be a sea of Red lights if Blue were not used on Dwarf sigs.
Peter Fraser The lens was probably a certain tint to change the yellow effect of a kerosene lamp or light globe to the required blue or purple. Either way, Drivers are taught that the blue LED light should be called Purple.
@@tressteleg1 Actually, both systems have their roots in the days of manually worked two-position semaphore signals. A train would face a starter signal to leave one station, and then the distant and home signals to arrive at the next... but what if it was a short section? The distant (with a red lens) could be placed under the starter on the same post, and interlocked to be held down until the starter was cleared, as can be seen in an old video of Melbourne's Upfield line. th-cam.com/video/a3As4iSx4Kk/w-d-xo.html Sydney retained this system with power signalling, so 'Clear' is green-on-green and 'Caution' is green-on-red. However, many of the world's railways combined the two arms into three position signalling of some sort... and where Sydney gained an extra "block" with a green-on-yellow aspect and retained route signalling with a yellow upper light, Victoria chose to follow American speed signalling.
My train driving, mostly in Sydney but a little in Melbourne, was strictly unofficial and the result of knowing drivers who let me do it discreetly. Metro and V line are quite separate entities so you would seek a job with one or the other, and that’s the trains you would drive. You would have to change employers to drive the other types of trains.
Maybe if you give it a rest for a few days and look at it once or twice a week, it will slowly start to make sense. And if you ride the trains, keep your eyes open to see what lights are being shown including at stations.
Yes they sure are in the past now that’s what I love about them just like the red rattlers too 😊. Don’t mind the newer modern trains but because my dad used to work on the classic trains I’ll always have a soft spot for them 😊. Because I work most day’s of the week I don’t get to travel by train much but a lot of the station in the video look unrecognisable. They must be doing a lot more projects then the metro link tunnel
Most people like things from their childhood memories. I don’t live in Melbourne so cant comment about station changes but obviously any close to a crossing removal project is likely to go. Maybe some get replaced anyway.
Sydney signally has some similarities. Passing one red light does not seem odd to me when there is a green or yellow above it, both indicating that there is a Red/Red further along. Red/Red may also be passed with automatic signals after stopping, then proceeding at a speed slow enough to stop if the track is occupied ahead. That does not apply to signal box operated signals except in some situations a very small yellow or green under the two reds means you can creep ahead until you reach the train in front. Commonsense comes into it as well.
In the UK we have two, three and four aspect colour lights. You will never see a red and green lit a the same time. In semaphore areas you might see red over yellow but that means stop until the red changes to green.
To each his own. Some systems seem to be unnecessarily complicated to achieve no more than simpler systems. I include Melbourne as that compared to Sydney. If any red means stop, there seems little point in having any other different colours with it. My video this Friday again has signal displays described, but following another train displays the signals in context. It shows how level crossings determine signal aspects as well.
Very interesting. In the UK a four aspect zone may show green, double yellow, single yellow and red in a sequence of four signals. Drivers must be able to stop at the red from sighting distance of the double yellow. On 100mph lines with trains close together braking distance and ability to brake within that distance is the key to operation.
We simply don’t have the combination of speeds and traffic densities that are found in the UK and Europe. Closer to the capital city centres train traffic can be quite dense but at somewhat lower speeds than 100mph. So 2 aspect suffices. You may find the video I will publish Friday to be called Driver’s View Frankston Line of interest as signal combinations are described as the train trip progresses.
In a couple of weeks time I will publish a ride from the city to Frankston and it includes a refresher of signals information. Seeing them in a sequence along the line will probably make a lot more sense to viewers.
I went on Frankston line a couple months back. The stations there vary in cleanliness and how new they are and some are really new and sleek while some haven’t been changed since the 1950s. I wouldn’t recommend going past mordialoc
Here is the reply from a driver (not the cameraman 😊). “Post 723 M = Metropolitan Platform 14 R = Non wired Platforms 15 & 16 G = Goods freight Bypass track heading towards Melbourne Yard Sparks can only take M or G, R is bad..”
You get your brain to associate red with danger (ie slow down or stop) yet at 1:25 the signal is green over red and the caption is to proceed at normal speed. That doesn’t make sense to me.
It would be interesting to see if they have more SPADs (signal passed at danger) in Melbourne vs Sydney per the number of train services. At least in Sydney if you loose concentration, your brain should subconsciously alert you whenever you see the colour red in a signal, in Melbourne.... maybe not?
An interesting point, but at the end both cities have Red/Red for the final stop. I think Sydney has two signals showing that before the stopped train ahead. I don’t know about Melbourne.
Another way I learned it:
Red - Do not proceed
Yellow - Proceed with caution
Green - Proceed
From top to bottom, signals:
A - Full Speed
B - Medium Speed (40km/hr?)
C - Low speed (15? 20?)
The colours then indicate how to proceed at the given speed.
Sort of? Maybe?
Glad you are not giving us a test after all this.
William O'Reilly Who said that? 😊😊
0
Never going to be a train driver. Had trouble just seeing the dwarf signals.
You only have to see them if you're stopped in a siding or on a terminus waiting to be clear to leave the siding/use the crossover
This kinda derailed my plans to become a train driver,
Training takes over a year, I believe. Plenty of time to get used to all the signal combinations 😊
I wonder if train companies ever thought of Red- Stop, Yellow = go slowly, Green = Go?
For a start, it was the state owned Victorian Railways which adopted that system, based on some railway company in the USA, but I forget which one. To most outsiders, it seems unnecessarily complicated and achieves little more than Sydney’s system which is far less complicated.
Thank you tressteleg1 for the tutorial on signals in Melbourne. Now i can fully understand how they work it is very much appreciated.
Fully understand! You are a lot smarter than most others viewers. Well done 👍
I actually just noticed that you are ‘to blame’ for me doing this video 😊 but it will save me the trouble of explaining signals in the future. I am amazed just how popular it is!
An excellent vid. Cheers for posting!
I read the poster below that said glad we're not being tested on it lol. I agree ..
I think we will all agree on that but with a year or so of driver training, it all would sink in.
Yep I think we got it now. Thank's for posting !
I was always so curious about these signals. You just gave me the answers. Great video!
👍
That was helpful for I only know the UK 3-aspect or 4-aspect lights. But I am still confused as to why there is a top light and a bottom light?
It gives more possible speed choices and can result in more trains safety running faster and closer together although Victoria’s system seems excessively confusing.
What a mess of a system.... NSW isn't much better.... Always amazed ALL of Australia didn't adopt the British Rail 4 aspect system?
Victoria is based on some wacky American system. Even after making the video, I barely remember some of the explanations. Sydney is much simpler. Two greens, as fast as the track limit allows. And to reds, stop. Between the two there are a couple of logical steps, each one requiring less speed than the last. Some people have mentioned the British system, but signalling systems are outside my interest.
If you guys want some information on how these signals are used, here you go.
On most lines outside of the city, all signals have permanent red lights on the "B" light.
Drivers will get Green/Red signals for the majority of the singals. (Indicating full speed ahead if you forgot)
When there is a stop (red Signal) coming up, they will get a Yellow/Red Signal. (Indicating full speed ahead but prepare to stop)
Then the stop will be a red/red signal.
In more congested areas like the city, or lines like the Frankston line with frequent trains, it will work differently.
Again, the signals will be Green/Red unless a stop is coming up.
When a stop is coming up, a Yellow/Green Signal will be given. (Continue at full speed but be at 40 km/h before next signal)
The next Signal after this will be a Red/Yellow (Max speed of 40 km/h and prepare to stop at the next Signal.)
Then the stop Signal will be a red/red.
Other uses:
When a train needs to change tracks, the Yellow/Green Signal will be provided to warn drivers to slow down to 40 km/h before the next Signal.
The Signal before the change in tracks will be a Red/Green signal if they do not need to stop at the next Signal.
The Signal before the change in track could be a Red/Yellow if they DO need to stop at the next Signal.
The Signal after the change in track will be a green/Red unless a red signal is coming up.
Another way to remember the signals is like this.
Green/Red - Clear and full speed
Red/Green - Clear and 40 km/h speed
Yellow/Red - Next Signal "Stop" but you get to go full speed until you get there.
Red/Yellow - Next Signal "Stop" and you have to stay below 40 km/h until you get there.
Yellow/Green - Go from full speed, to 40 km/h before the next Signal.
Red/Red - Stop.
Red/Red/Yellow - Shunt at 15 km/h.
I used your notes sent to Comments some time ago as well as Vicsig information in compiling this video as well as my drivers. Thanks.
Probably in 2 weeks time I expect to publish the ‘Completed’ Frankston project and the signal aspects are once again covered with notes. Seeing them all along the line as the run continues tends to make more sense as the need for their different aspects become apparent when the approaches to junctions etc. are seen.
Please email me on tressteleg(at)icloud.com
Use the normal symbol instead of (at).
Yes, I am glad to hear that my explanations helped to make this video, and as you said - seeing them in action really helps one to understand them.
Dwarf signals? ... it's a wonder in the PC state of Victoria they're not directed to call them vertically challenged signals!
kanga1234567 Give ‘em time 😊
For anyone still confused, try this website which tells you basically all you need to know about rail in Victoria
vicsig.net/index.php?page=infrastructure§ion=signalling
I used it but saw nothing about today’s Dwarf Signals.
Generally speaking, with three position home signals, you can think of it this way
a) track status (ie, clear or occupied/obstructed)
b) points (if any, are set for the move)
c) maximum speed
d) next signal
With automatic signals, it's the same, apart from the provision for points, as automatics don't ever protect points. Hope that helps a bit
If you were a driver, knew the line and drove these lines every day, I'm sure these signals would make a lot more sense, however, not being from Melbourne and not being familiar with the network, it's still a bit confusing. I'm much happier with Perth signalling. You've got green = go, yellow = caution (next signal red) red = stop. This is the same on both controlled and auto signals. You've got low speed shunt signals on some controlled signals for access into sidings, (you've also got some stand alone shunt signals at certain locations) and you've got either feather route indicators or theatre route indicators for diverging routes at junctions. DONE
I think Sydney and possibly Brisbane use similar logic to Perth. I have no idea what feather route indicators are.
@@tressteleg1 Feather route indicators are a set of 5 white lights mounted to the top of a signal at 45 degrees, and, when the diverging route is set, and the signal is cleared to either a yellow, green or low speed shunt, the 5 white lights will come on as well, telling the driver they are taking that route. The feather route indicator can be mounted either 45 degrees left, or 45 degrees right, depending on the direction of the diverging route. If the signal clears, and the feather route indicator does not come on, you are taking the main. If multiple routes can be selected from the same signal, you can have up to 6 route indicators mounted on one signal, (although, in practice, ive only ever seen 3 mounted on one signal) with one being mounted at 45 degrees, one at 90 degrees underneath, and the final at 135 degrees underneath that. (If all the routes diverge right from the main). If you have one left diverging route and two right diverging routes, then you'll have one feather mounted 45 degrees left, one 45 degrees right and the final one 90 degrees right. Hope that makes sense.
@Kirrily Ferngrove I think they have illuminated letters at Caulfield now. They still have one on platform 1 at Richmond.
@Kirrily Ferngrove the political references imply another age than this current one. was your uncle a proud member of the afule, victorian branch, which, according to my dad, was one of the first, if not the very first drivers union in the world, the creator of the first superannuation scheme for blue collar workers in this country, and also never went on strike for anything other than safety issues?
Why do it easy wenn you can do it the hard way! Top Video
😊
thank you -thank you -thank you
time to update my 40 year old safe working certificate
It’s nice to be a bit useful at times 😊
Thanks for the video. Who would of thought the Melbourne signaling system would be so full on. Great work.
Yes, and if you are still confused, so am I. Every time I do a new video, I have to check my notes to put in the correct signal readings. 😄
I think I'll stick to my NSW safeworking, it seems simpler. Thanks for the video though. You obviously put a lot of time and effort into explaining it.
It was not too bad. I got help from a driver. I’m working on another video on the Frankston line. I’ll probably do some memory joggers when Signals appear along the ride. It could help us all.
These signals are technically known as three position automatic signals (upper quadrant). They are used throughout Victoria on double line sections and single line ATC sections. Each of the aspects has a specific definition...
RED / RED - Stop or "Red Light"
YELLOW / RED - Normal Speed Warning
GREEN / RED - Clear Normal Speed
RED / YELLOW - Medium Speed Warning
RED / GREEN - Clear Medium Speed
YELLOW / GREEN - Reduce To Medium Speed
RED / RED / YELLOW - Low Speed Caution or just Low Speed
If the signal displays any other combination than those above, it's considered defective and treated as if at STOP.
In normal speed areas where the "B" light is just a small red light, it is often referred to as a "marker light".
"Reduce To Medium Speed" is usually seen before diverging points and may be accompanied by a route indicator.
In addition to shunting, "Low Speed" can also be used to bring a train into an occupied section to assist a defective train, or onto an occupied platform in order to couple two 3-cars sets into a 6-car set.
A Home signal may display an illuminated red letter "A" when at STOP. This indicates that the particular Home signal is normally controlled by a signal box/panel but the signal box/panel is currently "switched out" and as a result the Home signal may be treated like an an Automatic Signal.
I thought of the A on Home Signals but forgot to include it.
did you just write a S.A lol
Write a SA.????
no cause it was so long@@tressteleg1
Despite studying Civil Engineering/Transport Planning, I'm still a bit confused. Ha!
I think (and hope) that the only people on earth not confused are Melbourne train drivers! I’ve been adding signal information to the Melbourne train videos for years, but still have to look up most of the indications to see what they mean!
Now to remember that all!!!
Your explanation of "reduce to medium" (yellow over green) isn't quite accurate. It's not a first warning of a stop aspect. The instruction is a) the section ahead is clear b) the maximum is the track speed, c) next signal shows a medium speed (40km/h unless otherwise indicated) aspect. Generally this would mean you'll be diverging through points.
Thank you for the video, quite interesting. And surprising from a German perspective: Here it would be inconceivable to have any red light in anything but a stop aspect.
And the co-actor signals are just repeaters for better driver visibility?
Oh and lol on just repeating the video. Made me laugh. :)
Hello to Germany! People in other states agree with you about a red light being included in a full speed display.
However the basic two lens signals in Sydney are Green/Green, full permitted speed.
Green/Yellow, keep your eyes on the next signal which is likely to be
Green/Red which means the next signal is
Red/Red, you must stop. There is a bit more but that is the basics.
Re Co-actor signals, while they do in fact repeat the signal above in places where it would be difficult to see the main signal due to its height above the train especially at the end of a station, the word Repeater has a totally different meaning for trains running out from the city in country areas. They do not show the same as the basic signal and are much too complicated to try to understand.
At present I am doing a Driver’s View Frankston Line Video and tying in the signals seen with what the little Explained video ‘teaches’. It gets interesting when the train in front can be seen a long way away.
You may also be interested in one of my other videos taken closer to your home - Cab Rides Electric Locos Black Forest, a region which I am certain you would know of 😊
Very helpful for someone used to the systems in the UK
👍
you'll probably never see this but does it need to be this complicated? Why did they design it to be confusing? I guess drivers will just get used to it, and you'll probably pick it up pretty fast, but it's the 21st Century in a developed country surely there's a better way of doing it.
Yes notifications do come in, and I do my best to reply to all comments. From what I heard, the Melbourne system follows some railroad in the USA. The point is that different signal indications control speeds, whereas other states manage quite well with fixed speed boards beside the track. I totally agree, it is unnecessarily complicated. But their drivers manage. Nevertheless every time I do a video from Melbourne with signals, I have to look up my notes.
Thanks, I was kind of picking bits up from other vids, but this really helped.
initially they really did my nut in, multiple lamps on, what.....
The main one now is why do they refer to them as 'aspect'
That’s just normal railway jargon. Anyway I’m pleased that the video has overall helped you.
I might be dumb but I cannot understand how Green over red can mean proceed at clear normal speed. Red always indicates stop in any language. As a New South Welshman, clear ahead is green and in double light territory, it is green over green!!
As somebody familiar with NSW signals, I am equally incredulous but the Victorians see no problem with it. Go figure...
Nice Signal Explaining I'm In class right now for becoming a Train Driver i just turned 23 yesterday :)
Well Done, and congratulations on your recent birthday! I hope that my video helps you learn the signals a bit faster. If you find any faults in what has been written, I would be interested to know. I hope you enjoy driving trains although Metro may not always be the nicest nicest bosses to have.
Great video as usual. Back in my VR days , we called them co-acting , not co actor, signals.Are there any semaphore signals left in the metro area? I think Broad gauge Cragieburn to Tallarook is semaphore and double line block.Also during my SG days (1969-1974) if a home signal was red/red , protecting a grade crossing, the previous automatic was also red/red. From memory this occurred at Bowser, when Everton and beyond branches were operating ,Benalla Loop which had the oil siding branch ( remnants of Tatong branch) through it as well as Tallarook on the up for Cathkin and beyond.The preceding auto signal was on the up ruling grade and it was very difficult to move the train after stopping. In those days it was regulation 74A.Normally if arrival home signal was red/red or red/red/yellow (low speed) the previous auto was yellow/red.. (Confused? )
The assisting driver called then co-actor. Perhaps that is what they are taught today. He made no mention of semaphores in metro area. As I said elsewhere, this is complicated enough without including country lines but thanks for the info.
@@tressteleg1 no more semaphore in the metro controlled area. There are still some old ones standing around but they are out of use and gathering rust. I know there are a couple on the upfield line.
👍
Sorry it's really complicated with Melbourne Signals compared to Sydney Signals
Michael Lorkovic Agreed. Melbourne’s is called Speed Signalling and comes from some railroad in the USA.
Bit confusing and a lot to remember.
Hopelessly confused...Everyone’s lucky I don’t drive trains
👍😊
So, the signal trip arm is to stop a runaway train, either maliciously or accidentally?
More or less. They are to stop any train that passes a signal showing STOP. Also coming into underground stations you will see extra trips. As the train ahead moves away, those trips will go down one by one. These let a following train safely get close to the one in front, if the driver is not going faster than the arms go down.
When compared to railroad signals used in the contiguous US (CONUS), I think of:
- a small yellow being equivalent to a grey (lunar) light
- diagonal signals being equivalent to a signal that is not an absolute one (albeit with non-absolute ones -> treatment of red as going at very slow speed, being prepared to stop within half the distance the train driver can see)
- vertical signals being equivalent to absolute signals
I thank Danny Harmon, the Florida-based Distant Signal TH-cam man, for his video explanations of such signals.
These tram signals don’t really relate to train signals whose main purpose is to keep trains apart and occasionally handle junctions. These fancy singles were supposed to help tram drivers avoid mistakes where there is a junction. However tram drivers and former drivers like myself saw them as just B.S. and in fact a few weeks after I took the video at Port Junction, two trams collided there, then soon after those unnecessary signals were turned off, and all trace is now gone. The left or right or horizontal (stop) usual indicators remain.
However if you want to get stuck into some needlessly complicated signals, maybe you will enjoy the link below showing the signal system (US based I believe) covering the electric rail network of Melbourne.
Melbourne Train Signals Explained I Hope!
th-cam.com/video/U9VM3fkJ6Bg/w-d-xo.html
@@tressteleg1 The link you provided me is of the same video that I viewed. Those I'm about to provide are of videos from the Distant Signal TH-cam man:
- How To Read CSX Signals (SBD Sys) PART 1: th-cam.com/video/2xgSuvh28XI/w-d-xo.html
- How To Read CSX Signals Part 2: th-cam.com/video/qiGjt4xUPlY/w-d-xo.html
- How To Read CSX Signals Part 3: th-cam.com/video/vON6npnWHpY/w-d-xo.html (including, at the beginning, dwarf signals)
- How To Read Signals On The CSX Part 4: th-cam.com/video/87yB8E3wh3M/w-d-xo.html (including explanation, a bit over a minute in, of yellow over green [a so-called "approach medium" signal])
- How To Read Signals On The CSX Part 5 - ABS Signals: th-cam.com/video/mGBx2uL117o/w-d-xo.html (on signals that have number and letter plates that make such signals permissive ones [e.g. red meaning go slow unlike stop as with a so-called "absolute signal")
- How To Read CSX Signals Part 6: th-cam.com/video/P30iVDmOfjU/w-d-xo.html (including discussions of dwarf signals and doll arms)
@@wainber1 Sorry about the misunderstanding. The notifications I get usually don’t have a video title and it’s easy to guess the wrong thumbnail. There is a lot of viewing you have sent me and a lot of time has been lost lately with a car insurance claim, putting me behind with other computer activities, but I will check these links in due course.
@@wainber1 Hi. I watched all of these a short time ago and apart from the use of three aspects, I could see some similarities with Melbourne where some indications determine maximum speeds in some situations. Something that you may have noticed with some Melbourne signals is that the two aspects are vertical above each other. Those are controlled by signal boxes and must not be passed at stop unless specifically advised to do so. However some may have a little A which when illuminated advises that the signal box is switched out and the signal is automatic. Otherwise automatic signals which have no input from a signal box have the two aspects offset from each other making it perfectly clear from a great distance that it is an Automatic signal. Something that we do not have is signals that are only illuminated when there is a train nearby. That would be considered an unsafe practice here where every signal will default to the stop position in the case of a malfunction. Also when a signal is out of sight around a curve, it is normal for a repeater signal, in most cases showing the same aspect as the hidden signal, to be placed some distance away giving the train driver an advance warning of what is out of sight. One thing I’m pleased we don’t have here is the long winded level crossing warning whistling. Just a single toot is considered sufficient although the Whistle posts, a white X on a post in Melbourne in my opinion is placed much too far away from the actual crossing and of no use at all. Consequently some drivers give another toot when much closer, especially if they consider there is any risk of a motorist not seeing they are there.
Sydney signals, with which I am much more familiar as I grew up there, and years ago did a fair bit of artificial suburban train driving, very much simpler and if you are interested and have the time, you’ll see them in a recent video. I will send the link separately.
@@wainber1 Driver’s View K Set Tour April 2023 Rhodes - Toongabbie. Run by HET.
th-cam.com/video/XkvEKg9BGcU/w-d-xo.html
A reduce to medium does not necessarily mean there’s a warning signal ahead.
OK. And sometimes a warning of something ahead is no longer applicable by the time the driver can see the next signal.
It all reminds me of the infamous and imaginary safeworking system we used to refer to in NSW in the 1970’s - “Rafferty’s No Wire Block” 🤣 Makes just as much sense to me...
Sounds like a lot of fun. I wish I had some scenes to make up an equivalent Sydney Signals Video.
tressteleg1 I should have added that my lack of comprehension is no criticism of your valiant efforts - it’s just that purple = SNCF = brain explosion! Much enjoy your cab ride videos, thanks 😃
If you look at many of the other comments, plenty of people are befuddled as well. Even after making that video, I could not pass any test about what they all mean. There are plenty more train and tram Driver’s View videos to come.
Maybe you could ask "Sydney Trains Cab Videos" if you can use some of his footage, throughout his videos he shows all the aspects
Very confusing, but i hope the drivers understand them
Yes, I still get confused by the signals, but in many months of training, a driver would soon get to know what each choice of colours means.
That looks like Ferntree Gully station at 5:00 😊
Yup, signal 2R with a 40 Km/h curve board at the down end of no. 2 platform. Note: the end of the double line at FTG marks the beginning of the single line ATC section to Belgrave. Upper Ferntree Gully is the "control station" and Upwey is an "unattended crossing station".
In the 1930s the UK railway used a system of 'speed' signalling at Mirfield which had a combination of red, yellow and green lights to indicate speed and direction at junctions. It didn't last long.
Some of the default signals in Trainz are based on this system i think and there are standard and searchlight models
while here in Indonesia, it’s mostly 2 to 3 aspect signals with accessories like speed displays (in most cases showing 30 km/h), direction indicators (usually for exit signal) or a triangle display indicating emergency movement, shunting signals are pretty much standard 1 red 2 white and by law the poles must be painted Yellow black for visibility
Thanks for your international input. 😊
Hi tressteleg1. Last week you wrote me under my rreply to your other cabview video that you had also made a video about the signalsystems. I just rembered to watch it. Now I understand it. It is much like US and Canadian systems. There is another video with similar explenation: th-cam.com/video/9ObGxbxZAxg/w-d-xo.html
Here in the Netherlans we adapted US signalsystem but simplified it. Only 3 basic aspects (red, yello and green) and on some signals completed by speed indications. Tnx for this explenation.
That was nicely done, but it is still a complicated system. Sydney is much simpler. This video of mine shoes how the Signals interact with the train. Runs for 50 minutes. th-cam.com/video/qDX985joyeA/w-d-xo.html. Two greens means flat out. Two reds mean stop with green over yellow followed by Green over red indicate next is red over red.
As an old VR Driver, your term for the top Yellow is a bit misleading. "Full speed but ready to stop at next signal". We were taught on passing a top yellow, proceed with caution and act on the aspect of the next signal even from a standing start. However, it's a great video & the safety standards are still in place today from when I drove for the VR & Met-Rail.
Possibly suburban trains are more responsive with braking than longer locomotive trains so there could be different interpretations for each.
This is what a current suburban driver had to say:
“From vicsig which is i think (from memory) the wording from the current rule book.
YELLOW over RED
NORMAL SPEED WARNING
Indicated by a yellow light above a red light.
When "Normal Speed Warning" is displayed the driver must be ready to stop at the next signal.
I'd be inclined to let it rest or refer back to Vicsig.”
“
Similar to North American signals.
True, from what I have heard. I still can’t remember all the options. 😊
Oh My!
Always wondered what on earth they meant. Why make something simple when you can make it confusing instead? Definitely not taking up train driving in Melbourne...! 😕
Thank you Mr T. 👍
I understand your outlook entirely! However the training course is quite comprehensive, and after looking at those signals day after day for months, by the time you qualified you would probably have some sort of reasonable understanding of their meanings. Also you would be driving every line many times and would know where the next signal might be hidden around the corner, where a junction for slow speed is etc so each signal would be little more than a gentle reminder of what to expect next.
Thanks very much, however that are more complicated that the Sydney system Red over Red followed buy Green over Red then Green over Orange followed by Green over Green (full Speed) turnouts are Red over Orange or Orange over Orange.
Agreed. I grew up in Sydney and theirs was/is much simpler. Generally speed limits were set by little boards beside the track, not part of signalling. You may enjoy a future video on the Frankston line where I add a refresher to the Signals explained video.
Yellow over green is - caution to medium speed ( going through turnout in section after)
Red over yellow is - caution medium speed ( going through turnout and be prepared to stop at next signal at stop )
Yes, but I can never remember all the different meanings. I have to look them up for every video!
Are co actors the same as repeater signals?
Different railways have different meanings for repeater signals but I am certain that the Melbourne co-acting signal is near ground level and is an exact copy of a signal above it which a driver at a station may not be easily able to see above him.
Sydney trains seem much simpler
Without a doubt!! In fact I just finished a Driver’s View video recording there a short time ago.
Tressteleg1 - thank you so much! I dont know how TH-cam found me (putting one of your vids in my 'recommendation feed'), but for these journies, and how trains / trams evoke memories of a calmer, childlike life - I'm glad they did.
Its great that you have enjoyed this. If you can find my Playlists, you may heaps more you like under a few categories. More playlists will follow when I have time.
What is the max speed when passing a dwarf signal? Say for example shunting at Darling from the up line to the down line? :)
@Kirrily Ferngrove if yellow dwarf. Green dwarf track not occupied.
No wonder Melbourne trains are useless... even the drivers are confused.
I’m sure the drivers understand the signals inside out, but I am not a train driver so there is no need for me to learn. But it is rather confusing with all the options.
huh, subtle difference between (top/bottom) red/yellow and yellow/red
iamthinking2202 _ Yeah, I can never remember them so have to read up every time I do one of these videos. Watch out for a new one tonight.
Recognised a few locations, Ringwood, Ferntree Gully & Newport.
It’s nice to keep you on your toes 😊
1 month after this was posted i have taken the time to read all comments. i'd be confused anywhere in the world. i think i saw a show about the tgv or shinkansen or something else where conventional signals come up too quickly because of train speeds. so there are information screens in the cab. why not put this stuff in all trains. if the systems were to incorporate gps info it would allow for closer running and scrap the expense of all the miles and kilometres of trackside wiring for signal lights that may have different meanings even within a single system. put it in the new trains then instal it in the older stuff. country locos have something called ice radios. i don't know if they have such features.
You may be amazed that Melbourne trams use an ancient system of radio transmitters along the route, a system in use in the 1980s and maybe earlier. GPS was considered, but was useless amongst all the tall buildings in the city centre. While GPS may work okay in flatter countryside, from what I gather the satellites are a bit low on the horizon so there could be black spots in hilly countryside. Disastrous.
In cab signal displays are not new overseas. Besides giving more warning time for high-speed trains, the concept is also useful for trains running in the thick fog which is less of a problem there. And the biggest drawback with all wonderful technology is the cost. Maybe a signals engineer will read your comment and have something to say.
@@tressteleg1 , well, i bought gps speed indicators for my cars and they are great but, as you point out don't always work. like tunnels (there is one in perth) and one particular street in a suburb i frequent. i'm fascinated to hear of a radio system in melbourne trams
Of course you realise that railway signals that would only work spasmodically would certainly lead to a disaster. When some obvious solution to a problem is not used, usually if there is a damn good reason for that which we might never think of.
To learn more, do a Google search for Melbourne trams AVM. Let me know if you still have further questions.
I have a friend in Yarra trams in their head office who has access to a certain amount of information.
I realise that especially government organisations can be slow in adopting new technology but in this case it seems very likely that this 1978 equipment is the best existing at the moment.
If you want to know more, it might be best if you contact me using. tressteleg(at)icloud.com
Use the normal symbol instead of (at)
@@tressteleg1 ,you are obviously obsessive compulsive in your quest for knowledge about things in which you have an interest - just like me. you think the tram avm is great. i fully trust your opinion. you haven't directly answered the question i asked. i think that gives me the answer.
A nicely presented, basic understanding of commonly used signals. There are more than just color combinations, positioning is also important, and flashing any of the lights can also introduce other meanings. We also can affix plates to the mast that gives that signal permanent restrictions, and that can affect what the rule is to be obeyed. When being tested on the CROR for rules and signals, you have to remember word-for-word what the rule is, as it is written. I don't know if a spelling mistake would sink you, but missing or misplacing a word would. They expect no deviation in rule or signal communication, and I think rightly so. One changed or omitted word concerning a signal or an operating rule, could, and has in the past, led to tragedy. One, two, three light heads on a mast is not unusual. Lunar white, blue are quite rare and would be displayed (if needed) on a separate, dedicated head. The use of co-actors is unusual up here. I have not seen it, but cannot say that it is never done. They could and should take that idea in a few select locations where trains cannot possibly see home signals around long swept corners, and must rely on prior indication and radio communication from RTC to advise when they have a more permissive indication and are able to proceed. That style of signal, mounted at that approximate height, is seen in subways, as overhead signalling would be rather impractical. Here is a link to a page where someone has taken the time to illustrate most of the signals one might encounter on a Canadian Rwy. www.okthepk.ca/foamerFiles/signals.htm .
Thanks for all of that. To me, there seems to be an excessive number of signal combinations shown in your link. Sydney’s are much simpler with mostly just 2 colours showing. Maybe speed boards are used at junctions where some must be taken more slowly than others.
I never expected much interest in this video so I am amazed by numbers and especially interest from overseas. I only made it up from scenes already held by me and was in response to occasional requests for Melbourne signal explanations.
Thanks for your response. Trains have speed limits here, depending on their purpose, their makeup (contents or cargo), location (some towns or cities demand that through-freights slow down to help abate noise, and lessen impacts if ever there should be a derailment, heaven forbid.... Also, track conditions, track work, sometimes weather (high winds or water) can affect speeds too. Signage is posted in some places, but posted speeds are often overruled by other conditions, so the operating crews must be paying attention to train orders, signals, sudden changes and new orders called over the radio by the Rail Traffic Controller. I hope one day to get to Australia for a look around. The NSW-area would be high on the list, any other areas you might suggest ?
In Melbourne the normal maximum speeds must be learned by the drivers as part of their training. As you can see, the signals modify that in various ways.
I’m more familiar with Sydney where Yellow reflectorised speed boards are placed at and after all curves and vary according to sharpness etc.
When track quality requires a reduced speed, First there is a Warning sign with the speed shown, and about one kilometre later a Caution Board where the limit starts, and later a Clearance Board. I expect that these changes are shown in the depots where crews are based. I think all freight trains are limited to 80km/h, passenger trains up to 160km/h including the Tilt Trains in Queensland on 3’ 6” gauge. I think that all states here more or less do things similarly.
As for the best places to visit, it depends on where your interests lie. All capital cities have electrified railways of various sizes. Newcastle NSW has heavy coal traffic. Central Qld has many km of electrified track for 10,000 tonne coal trains with 3 electric locos, one front and the other two along the trains. All these Railways are state owned, some parts privately operated. In the northwest of West Australia there are a number of private iron or railways with massively long trains. Few fans go there as it is so remote.
Thanks for that as I've been looking for info for a while. After watching I still don't see why they need the under light they could easily just use normal traffic lights, it looks more like they have just been slapping together the system over the last 100 years. I live next to FTG station so I'm going to watch the arm go down next time. I've never noticed it, them boom gates always stuff up and I've been here for 25 years and still between the light and boom gates they go hey wire.
The reason for having the 'B' light is for redundancy, if the 'A' light fails (remember, the system as a whole predates LED lighting), the 'B' light shows the location of the signal and the single red light means the train MUST STOP. This form of redundancy is especially important at night, as there aren't the multiple heads of vehicular intersections.
Also, the signalling system is actually based on the most common form of American railroad signalling.
@@cswvna thanks for the reply.
@@cswvna any irregular aspect means stop. Including failed lights. If you only see one light, you stop. The purpose of 3 position signals is to give you more information about the track ahead. Frankston is the only place in the metro network that still uses 2 position which doesn't tell you much. 3 position tells you, speed, information about the next signal, whether the track ahead is occupied and how the points if any are set.
With regard to using "normal traffic lights", it should be noted that some signals have a separate light for each colour but these are arranged in reverse order to road traffic lights to prevent confusion. ie green on top, then yellow, and red at the bottom.
What would the correct procedures for passing an automatic at stop?
As far as I know. Stop. Then move ahead and reset the trip which has just stopped the train. Then go ahead slow enough to easily stop your train again before hitting any train or thing in front of you. Or ‘Trip’ past the next red signal etc.
tressteleg1 okay. Why would they need to do this?
I thought you would be able to work this out. Obviously if there is a broken down train around a sharp corner which you can’t see, you must be able to stop without hitting it. But if there is a simple signal failure, there is no reason to sit there forever so you keep going carefully until something else stops you such as a home signal or broken train. Or you might get right past all the broken signals then carry on.
@@tressteleg1 yeah I meant why would you want to pass at all, but that makes sense now
Every rail system seems to have its own signal setup.
😊
Thanks, this is a big help on my layout
Good luck with that!
Yes
😊
FRANKSTON LINE 2 DAY A WEEK MON AND THURSDAY BEFORE 5:00 AM TO 16:05 AT SOUTH YARRA WATCH THE NEXT VIDEO
Victorian Railway signals are simple to understand. If you think these are complicated, have a look at Swiss Type L signals or some of the experimental German colour light systems, which often display four or more lights where both the colour and the arrangement of the lights indicates the aspect. For example, in Switzerland, three green lights in a vertical line above two green lights at an angle with a yellow light below to the right means Proceed at 90 km/h, and expect the next signal to also display Proceed at 90 km/h.
My head is spinning after reading that!
@@tressteleg1 It's actually less confusing than it sounds. Much of the English-language literature on railway signalling only focuses on the differences between British and American practices, and completely ignores Central European practices, which were often based on German ideas. In the Germanic sphere of influence, there's a strict separation between Train movements (timetabled) and Shunting movements (ad-hoc), and every signal for a train movement (a Main signal) must have an associated Distant signal. When the distance between two Main signals is too short to have a separate Distant, the two signals are combined on the one post but still treated individually.
In the Swiss Type L system, three green lights in a vertical line is a Main signal aspect that means Proceed at 90 km/h, and two inclined green lights with a yellow light below right is a Distant signal aspect announcing the same. Taken together you get the combined aspect. There's a good overview of Swiss (and Austrian) signalling here: xover.mud.at/~invisible/mirror/sig/asr/ensigchsysl.html
Wolfgang Meyenberg has a great description of German signalling on his page: sh1.org/eisenbahn/index.htm
Joern Pachl has written an introduction to German block and interlocking principles: www.joernpachl.de/German_principles.htm
(you'll probably have to copy and paste the URLs)
@@tressteleg1 You can see an example of that signal indication at 33:00 on this video from Zürich to Basel: th-cam.com/video/2zIxULExXdM/w-d-xo.html . The triangular junction at Olten is set up for 90 km/h on two of the three sides, and trains heading towards Basel pass a rather weird signal (even by Swiss standards) that I believe can display only Expect Stop and Proceed at 90 km/h.
These signals are actually quite easy compared to other countries' signalling such as France and Germany.....reading up on those (which I have had to do for Train simming) almost makes your head explode.
Sometimes the complexities of some systems seem pointless. Maybe my video ‘Cab Rides Electric Locos Black Forest’ will show some signals familiar to you.
I agree some systems do seem needlessly complex...but there are many reasons why they are the way they are. For someone like myself not in the industry and reading up on it all just for hobby purposes it does seem pointless...but with extensive training it all becomes second nature.
Thank you for posting. I'm still not sure why the crossover at Essendon needs the purple light, rather than using the normal red, yellow, green.
Apparently purple was to avoid confusion with normal signals.
Purple was used on dwarf signals until the late 60s, and experimentally also used on disc signals in a number of locations. It's a shorter wavelength of light so it isn't as visible over longer distances, and is less likely to be confused with the red of home signals as a result. Blue and purple are commonly used to indicate Stop for shunting movements worldwide.
What I find weird about Victorian railway signalling is that point indicators also used a red/green distinction rather than graphical indications as was done in Central Europe. I sometimes get the impression that Victorian railways practices were an awkward mix of British and American concepts that ended up together as if by accident.
Kirrily Ferngrove The Driver who guided me also told me that the Blue lights are still called Purple because they used to be that colour. I suppose that Epping with so many sidings could well be a sea of Red lights if Blue were not used on Dwarf sigs.
@@tressteleg1 the colour is called westinghouse blue. Can't remember why.
Peter Fraser The lens was probably a certain tint to change the yellow effect of a kerosene lamp or light globe to the required blue or purple. Either way, Drivers are taught that the blue LED light should be called Purple.
Great video. Is there a book publish on signals in Melbourne, or a training guide?
I don’t know about a book but do a google search for vicsig and open the signals section. That shows most but not the present vertical Dwarf Signals.
vicsig.net/index.php?page=infrastructure§ion=signalling
@@tressteleg1 documentportal.metrotrains.com.au/safetydocs/Documents/1994%20Book%20of%20Rules%20Section%2002%20(Rules%2005-14).pdf
Enoch Liu 😊👍
Wow that's thoroughly confusing. I like Sydney's system better.
Agreed. I grew up in Sydney.
@@tressteleg1 Actually, both systems have their roots in the days of manually worked two-position semaphore signals. A train would face a starter signal to leave one station, and then the distant and home signals to arrive at the next... but what if it was a short section? The distant (with a red lens) could be placed under the starter on the same post, and interlocked to be held down until the starter was cleared, as can be seen in an old video of Melbourne's Upfield line. th-cam.com/video/a3As4iSx4Kk/w-d-xo.html
Sydney retained this system with power signalling, so 'Clear' is green-on-green and 'Caution' is green-on-red. However, many of the world's railways combined the two arms into three position signalling of some sort... and where Sydney gained an extra "block" with a green-on-yellow aspect and retained route signalling with a yellow upper light, Victoria chose to follow American speed signalling.
NSW signalling is fairly similar to this
@@yerolo Except that there are no reversed aspects - ie. Green/Red and Red/Green
Wow
Still confused? So am I😄
@@tressteleg1 what is it like to be a train driver could you pick on any train you want to drive ike metro or V/line
My train driving, mostly in Sydney but a little in Melbourne, was strictly unofficial and the result of knowing drivers who let me do it discreetly.
Metro and V line are quite separate entities so you would seek a job with one or the other, and that’s the trains you would drive. You would have to change employers to drive the other types of trains.
Been in Melbourne I still don’t understand this...... at all
I prepared this video so watched it all a number of times. I still don’t remember all the different meanings of colour combinations!
tressteleg1 alright I’ll try again and hopefully after awhile it starts to make sense
Maybe if you give it a rest for a few days and look at it once or twice a week, it will slowly start to make sense. And if you ride the trains, keep your eyes open to see what lights are being shown including at stations.
Did you get to ride in one of the hitachi trains or a comeng one? 😊
Hitachis in the past. Rattling tin boxes on wheels.
That location probably was Ferntree Gully. It was certainly on the Belgrave line.
Yes they sure are in the past now that’s what I love about them just like the red rattlers too 😊. Don’t mind the newer modern trains but because my dad used to work on the classic trains I’ll always have a soft spot for them 😊. Because I work most day’s of the week I don’t get to travel by train much but a lot of the station in the video look unrecognisable. They must be doing a lot more projects then the metro link tunnel
Most people like things from their childhood memories. I don’t live in Melbourne so cant comment about station changes but obviously any close to a crossing removal project is likely to go. Maybe some get replaced anyway.
Excellent video.
👍
From a UK perspective it looks odd to be able to pass a red light. Very interesting video.
Sydney signally has some similarities. Passing one red light does not seem odd to me when there is a green or yellow above it, both indicating that there is a Red/Red further along. Red/Red may also be passed with automatic signals after stopping, then proceeding at a speed slow enough to stop if the track is occupied ahead. That does not apply to signal box operated signals except in some situations a very small yellow or green under the two reds means you can creep ahead until you reach the train in front. Commonsense comes into it as well.
In the UK we have two, three and four aspect colour lights. You will never see a red and green lit a the same time. In semaphore areas you might see red over yellow but that means stop until the red changes to green.
To each his own. Some systems seem to be unnecessarily complicated to achieve no more than simpler systems. I include Melbourne as that compared to Sydney. If any red means stop, there seems little point in having any other different colours with it.
My video this Friday again has signal displays described, but following another train displays the signals in context. It shows how level crossings determine signal aspects as well.
Very interesting. In the UK a four aspect zone may show green, double yellow, single yellow and red in a sequence of four signals. Drivers must be able to stop at the red from sighting distance of the double yellow. On 100mph lines with trains close together braking distance and ability to brake within that distance is the key to operation.
We simply don’t have the combination of speeds and traffic densities that are found in the UK and Europe. Closer to the capital city centres train traffic can be quite dense but at somewhat lower speeds than 100mph. So 2 aspect suffices. You may find the video I will publish Friday to be called Driver’s View Frankston Line of interest as signal combinations are described as the train trip progresses.
Very helpful.
Wayne White Yes, but I still have to look at my notes when putting signal notes on a new video.... I’ll never remember all the options. 😊
@@tressteleg1 Lifelong learning m8!
Wayne White Trams on the northern side of Sydney caught my attention when I was too young to start school. I am continuing to learn on the subject. 😊
Epic
In a couple of weeks time I will publish a ride from the city to Frankston and it includes a refresher of signals information. Seeing them in a sequence along the line will probably make a lot more sense to viewers.
I went on Frankston line a couple months back. The stations there vary in cleanliness and how new they are and some are really new and sleek while some haven’t been changed since the 1950s. I wouldn’t recommend going past mordialoc
What does the M meaning
Please give the time point in the video.
@@tressteleg1 at 35s going into southern cross
I will have to ask a driver but it probably has something to do with routing, such a Main Line somewhere. I’ll get back to you when I get a reply.
@@tressteleg1 thanks
Here is the reply from a driver (not the cameraman 😊).
“Post 723
M = Metropolitan Platform 14
R = Non wired Platforms 15 & 16
G = Goods freight Bypass track heading towards Melbourne Yard
Sparks can only take M or G, R is bad..”
Excellent! All my questions answered ...plus one or two I hadn't even thought of. 👍👍
😊👍
You get your brain to associate red with danger (ie slow down or stop) yet at 1:25 the signal is green over red and the caption is to proceed at normal speed. That doesn’t make sense to me.
Nor anybody else, but that is precisely what it means. Sydney’s clearest signal is Green/Green. The same in Melbourne is Green/Red.
It would be interesting to see if they have more SPADs (signal passed at danger) in Melbourne vs Sydney per the number of train services. At least in Sydney if you loose concentration, your brain should subconsciously alert you whenever you see the colour red in a signal, in Melbourne.... maybe not?
An interesting point, but at the end both cities have Red/Red for the final stop. I think Sydney has two signals showing that before the stopped train ahead. I don’t know about Melbourne.