Great!. I am looking forward for your lecture. The size of the yard was not a problem, the real thing was a not safe enough (for La Armada) reserve of buoyancy. After contracting Electric Boat they enlarge the "animal". They had also had serious problems with the AIP system. The first Spanish S-80, the S-81, is now in the dock. They are installing the last equipment and will go under sea trials next March with the idea of having it ready for La Armada in one year, when the second one, the S-82, will be at dock (like S81 is today). This two submarines do not have the AIP system that will be installed in the first major overhaul; they could do it but the Armada refused the idea for safety reasons. The S-83 and S-84 are under construction to be in dock in 2023 and 2024 ( expected to be commissioned 2024 and 2025 respectively), both will have the AIP since the beginning. That is the data as I remembered.
Actually, there's some similarity between Scorpene and S-80, but it's really skin deep. Scorpene wasn't a coporduction agreement insofar as Navantia (Bazan) didn't have access to the combat system, design info other than what they built and had to use providers certified by the French. Despite this, at one point Scorpene was anounced as the future S-80, but as mentioned, the deal failed for political reasons and Navantia went alone, mismanaging the project spectacularly as mentioned in the previous answer. Once proper redesign had been completed with EB help, the project has been coming along nicely. There were some uncertainties around the AIP plant (which ended up being bigger and only fit in the redesigned boat) including fuel cells (which aren't produced in Spain, but in the US). Spanish companies had to create the combat system from the ground up and integrate the German torpedoes, so the boat is in fact quite different from Scorpene.
@@lgriestra They should have decoupled the AIP issue ... and gone initially conventional diesel/electric, which they finally had to do .. as the wait could not be further delayed. India's native AIP project also dragged the same problem, delaying its Scòrpene launch, and also took the decision to launch the first units with conventional propulsion. New developments in batteries as pioneered by Japan and Korea in their latest subs may provide a temporary stopgap until new gen AIP irons outs some of the technological obstacles. It reminds me of the F35 fighter, where the B (STOL/VTOL) version has hampered all the project, it should have been spinned off ... It shares some commonalities but is more of a different species. A (conventional) and C(arrier) versions would have reached availability and market before if not subordinated to their lagging and more complex brother.
All Chilean Scorpenes are currently operational. I can personally attest to that. I've seen them both at an International Tallship Fair in Valparaiso just a couple of years ago (probably 2018 or 2019).
Thanks very much for your video. I think they are really appreciated by the submarine fans all around the world. A couple of comments: - The dry dock expansion has to be triggered due the enlargement of the class from 70 meters (210 feets) to 80 meters (240 feets). So the root cause was not they "forgot" to build a proper dry dock, but the overweight problem detected in the initial desing. - The first submarine of its class S81 has been already laid down. It will perform its sea trials on 2022 and will be commisioned in 2023. I agree with the rest of my spanish colleagues, S80 can not be considered anymore a Scorpene submarine. I will say it will deserve a separate video on its own when its real capabilities are exposed. Best regards
S80 is a complete different submarine to the Scorpene. The main reason why Navantia did not get well with then DCNS was the 2002 short time conflict between Spain and Marrocoo about the occupation of a tiny island named "Perejil" in the African side of the Strait of Gibraltar. The island (togheter with other military posts) is under the soveranity of Spain but It was occupied by a small marrocco police team to trigger the popularity of the young king of Marrocoo just in the throne after the dead of his father king Mohamed VI. The action was pushed by Jacques Chirac, president of France who was against the pro US political position of the Spanish Aznar prime minister. The French though Aznar will move back to avoid the conflict but he didn't. After the police team was sent back to Marrocoo the political relations between Spain in one side and France and Marroco in the other side were broken and the 50-50 commercial agreement between Navantia and DCNS started to fail. Spanish armada requested a complete different project base on power cells AIP and US combat and weapons systems instead of french ones and the projected Spanish submarines were not to be a Scorpene type any more. Navantia was not prepared to design a new submarine from scratch on its own and DCNS didn't allow Navantia to use the same Scorpene supply chain. This is the origin of all the problems, very top level requirements and lack of preparation. To make the things worst, there was a big social and labour row in Navantia and lots of very experience employees were forced to retire in advance of the statutory age. It is clear, because of poor design capabilities, that matching the updates of the already existin design with complete new requirements and equipment will be very challenging and critical issues like weight and buoyancy balance would be happening. Submarine design and fabrication capacities and capabilities are extremely difficult to get and Navantia, the Spanish armada and the soul of Isaac Peral are still following a very step learning curve. PD: Finally, Chirac got what he liked, selling weapons to Marroco.
The distributed array sounds a lot like what they use in astronomy. They call it "interferometry" and they'll use multiple radio telescopes over a certain area (sometimes thousands of miles/km apart) and software to stitch it together. It's about as effective as having a single telescope the same size as the distance between the receivers, and it's how they got that picture of a black hole a couple of years ago (among many other things).
@@SubBrief I just think it's cool the way similar concepts show up in seemingly vastly different fields like astronomy and sonar. I know it's not a 1:1 comparison, but it's still kinda neat.
Yes.. And the raw data those telescopes collate is usually in petabytes.. It's much more faster for them to physically courier a copy of the physical stack of hard hard drives than to send them over the internet; to the lab that has the supercomputers to figure out the raw data points and give a intelligible output.. Mind-blowing operation.. 🤯
Hi!. Both Chilean Scorpenes are in service after the 2010 27F tsunami. For example, the Carrera participated in DESI 2021 in San Diego, and the O'Higgins participated in Chilemar VII with the US Navy Undersea Rescue Command. The submarine on drydock Talcahuano was the Ecuadorian BAE Shyri. The upgrade process of this U209 type boat was completed successfully on 2012
Romania is looking for this type of sub. We need at less 2 or 3 off this. All information here are gold compared with media coverage about this subject. Thank you!
The S-80 cannot fire Tomahawks at the moment and it isn't clear if it will ever be able to. The Spanish Navy has not been able to make a deal with the US and acquire the libraries necessary to integrate this capability within the SCOMBA system. Same goes for the F-110.
Excellent video, but just a correction: 1985 wasn't the year in which the military coup happened in Brazil, it was the year that the military dictatorship (which started with a military coup in 1964) ended
Given that Australia is now in the process of acquiring nuclear submarines and the US is supporting them, it would be inappropriate for the US to continue criticizing Brazil for it's nuclear submarine program. Plus the Brazilian reactor uses low enriched uranium and is a low proliferation threat.
@@SubBrief Yes captain, I suppose me saying criticizing is too harsh when you did say it was only a point of contention. It would be interesting to see what they build ultimately, a nuclear submarine based on a diesel-electric design. That would make her one of the smallest nuclear subs in the world, similar to the Rubis class.
The thing, AFAIK, is that even from low enriched one is able to get plutonium from the spent fuel after reprocessing. Brazil was researching fuel reprocessing in the past, but something happened and the matter was left alone. As a concerned citizen, I prefer Brazil doesn't join the Club, we can barely play the diplomacy game, it's folly to think that nukes will help.
Naval Group is building new infrastructure in Cherbourg because they anticipate a lot of Scorpène orders in months and years to come. It really turned out to be big hit, it fits a lot of smaller navies.
5 of the Indian boats have been completed, 4 are active INS Kalvari, INS Khanderi, INS Karanj and INS Vela, Sea trials are on going for INS Vagir. The last one INS Vagsheer is in production and no the AIP has not been fitted on the fifth boat.
Although it is not mentioned directly in almost any document of the navy, the main reasons for the break with the French shipping company; France did not want to share all the plans for the submarine with Spain, political problems between the two countries. Certainly Something of Spanish Pride ... in the naval fairs our shipping company was treated as a mere comparsa, when in those years we manufactured the best frigates in the world. So it was decided to break the relationship and produce a good national submarine. And the United States thought it good to help us a little bit in order to unseat France from the Armament market. It is the typical fight between America and Europe for the world market ... and Spain always in the middle.
Sub cooperation between DCNS (nowadays Naval Group) with then Bazán (afterwards Irizar, and finally Navantia as the spinoff with the military shipyards, remaining the civilian in the former) had started decades before with the local construction of the S60 Daphné class, followed by its successor, the S70 Agosta class. S80 Scorpène was a 50%-50% project, as the initial buyer was to be Spain with 6 units, and any other sales would be export, as by then the French had decided to go all nuclear powered for their own future subs. DCNS role in international fairs was not of a trusted partner, ommiting the fact to potential clients that it was in a partnership. We see a similar attitude in the current FCAS project, always downplaying their Spanish partners. No wonder that with the Eurofighter headaches prior to France's exit, Italy preferred to go with the Brits on the Tempest. The sole fact Spain is there, is due to Germany. True that the sub was basically a french design, but it incorporated inputs also from the Spanish shipyard and Navy due to long exposure to the French (DCNS) way of designing and manufacturing. And thus it is no surprise that the S80 also had a certain external family look, regardless that the "environment" obviously defines the shape and as convergent evolution shows: independent organisms evolve to similar traits ... we see this also in aeronautics and the automotive industry. The US and France (starting with DeGaulle) had supplied the Spanish civil nuclear program, and the latter also floated the proposal of a nuclear sub. The Armada found the french subs fine for littoral tasks but unpractical to cover the >2000 Km one way distance and patrol from the mainland to the Canary Islands. Project SUBESPRON addressed this need of a true ocean sub capability and deterrance with a nuclear sub, for which the French floated a Rubis derivative. It was shelved among other issues due to the fuel dependency and high cost. This was no uninterested move, first: the need of a partner with whom to share costs; and a way to lock in Spain's dependency, who until then was an important buyer of French civil and military products (tanks AMX30, Mirage planes, the above mentioned subs ...). Since the XVIII century, with the Bourbon dynasty in the Spanish throne, the country's policy was alligned or subordinated to the French, dragging us to wars with the Brits, in favour of the US, the conquest of Indochina (VietNam), and Morocco, in which Spain made significant contributions, payed a high price, and in those that succeeded, got no acknowledgement. Some of the Spanish military services had began to abandon the French military dependancy; one of the first blows was the German Leopard tank; the sale of the Spanish Artillery Ordnance Company to GDLS instead of to AMX-GIAT; remain in the EF consortium and not bail out to following FR in the Rafale ... HK instead of FAMAS ... ...
The difference between the Spanish AIP and the rest is that the Spanish have managed to create hydrogen inside the submarine based on bioethanol, the other AIP systems have to load the hydrogen in port when they run out. That is why the Spanish submarine will have an autonomy of at least three weeks while the rest of the submarines will only last 12-13 days... the technological leap of the Spanish submarine is enormous
AIP fuel cells are already obsolete tech, all the major submarine manufacturers have moved on to generate power with Li-ion batteries, all of them ,except Russia maybe. It will be even more obsolete when it comes out, supposedly in a few years. If it ever happens, actually...
Before I retired in 2018 at 70 years of age the RN/MoD was asked by NG and French MoD/MN to look at the stealth coating using rubber and other systems, they came to visit me and my team to see how we did it for the RN. They came in about 2013 for a visit and a tour from me and a specialist naval architect. We gave them the grand tour and discussed the design changes that would be necessary for an acoustic stealth system. They decided from the feedback that was given to me that they felt that the required modifications were too troublesome and too expensive to incorporate into their boats. I do not know to the extent of the models of boats that they intended to use our stealth (quite extensive and complicated) technology, I originally thought it was just the French service boats (we do not provide designs for third parties as the design would alter as to the individual parameters service as each navy has different operational requirements; normal operational depths and so on). I am now thinking that the French intended the technology for the Australian boats and the boats they have sold on to other nations on their AIP designs enabling them to provide a selling point for their boats abroad. My personal feeling is that I would not trust the French not to sell on our detailed knowledge onward to make money. Fortunately the level of detail we gave was just enough to understand what is involved and work out what they had to consider - I think they are NATO but I am not sure. I have helped the Swedes under the NATO umbrella for some technology transfer in the past and I have help them solved problems on their boats in the past on noise allowed by MoD. I have put these notes for you to consider for context. My old Company has a considerable presence in Australia on their surface ships ( or targets as like to call them) and for their submarines. Kind regards
Second question; The s-80's manufacturing problem was not (initially) its size. The problem is that the initial calculations were made wrong and the submarine was 70 tons overweight. Spain at this time decided to request help from General Electric Boats (General Electric). The submarine had to be lengthened by X meters, resulting in the need to lengthen the ship's mooring docks (not the dry dock). Regarding the System Independete de Aire, it will be incorporated in the next revision of the ship; It no longer joined because Spain needs operational submarines as soon as possible. And there was no time to finish the development of the API and incorporate it. So the first 2 units skip next year without API and the last 2 if they will have API.
Christian Villanueva of Ejercitos magazine, is a great expert in the S80 Odyssey, which he gone through in many articles. He himself is a naval engineer, and is going a publish a book on the subject, compiling these plus foreseable additional and updated information. The calculation or buoyancy error was a caricatured simplification of a problem in a project where the requirements are a moving target with specifications changing over time. The sub did float and could be used in its S80 incarnation, but it had exhausted its space reserve for future expansion. And the Navy did not accept a limp duck with constrained possibilities. The problem of Public owned Companies is that there is a high chance that the guy placed at the helm has no idea about the business. The flop of sending to early retirement some of the best engineers and experienced workforce was one of the worst. Their successors were naive in not checking this. And surely the poor freshmen were not aware that the CAD/CAM system was advising of this mismatch, probably lost in a specific tab or menu option. Electric Boat is a division of General Dynamics, Navantia's long time US partner, whose F110 derived was proposed in the FFG(X) tender. Despite this, the protocol required the assistance and supervision for the S80 to be channelled through the Navies of both countries. General Electric is the supplier of the US submarines nuclear reactors, licenced to the Brits for local manufacturing by RR. Talking about the Brits, if you look at the timeline of the first Astute it has not much to envy the S80 in mishaps. The sub had also to be enlarged as since its design the reactor had jumped to a new generation. It was more powerful, but bulkier. Here too Electric Boat was called in. In practice the EB team ended being deployed for a longer term than initially expected, and in practice runnning the shipyard.
Some of the points are wrong; The death of the rupture of Relations between Navantia and DCN (the French group at that time) were largely political, but in GREAT GREAT MEASURE military and technology. As you know, it was French since the 90's, frigates and destroyers (FG Fidgor Najsden and Hobart) equipped with the AEGIS System as well as its F-100 and F1-105 frigates equipped with AEGIS Systems (of North American manufacture). Two months after the attacks of September 11, 2001, the navy staff determined that the characteristics of the ship should be different (it should have API and ground attack capacity, as well as the capacity to deploy special units). Scorpio did NOT have these characteristics. Our partner frabxes did not want to change his project, so Spain decided to ally with Locked-Martin. Thus the new S-80 would have: A new API unit, ground attack capability (tomahawks) and a new sonar (a sonar derived from the one used in the USS VIRGINIA (provided by Locked Martin. joint project with France and Build your own S-80 with the collaboration of Locked Martin.
The caricaturization of Navantia's S80 project by their main competitors, specially NG, is precisely a sign of fear, that they take it as a serious competitor ... else they would not even bother. They felt the pinch with the success of the F100 frigates and the LHDs. And the S80 sub project was seen as a serious potential challenger to the West conventional sub export market duopoly of NG and TKNS, with their respective Scorpène and 212 products. There are some other players like Saab (ex Kolum) with good now how, mainly oriented to its country’s needs, like its Gripen fighter; but with export projects not materializing, as all military purchases have also a significant political implication beyond the industrial or technical specifications per se. The adoption and the feat of the then new frigates of boasting advanced US Navy equipment like AN/SPY, Aegis, Mark 41 VLs on a hull smaller than an Arleigh Burke (aka a mini AB, something that had been considered impossible) and exposure to other potential naval equipment and purveyors like Raytheon and Lockheed, convinced the Armada that the French equipment was first class, but some of the US was comparable if not better in some categories. Due to strategic and commercial arguments, French equipment was avoided whenever posible in the sub. The frigates do use the excellent Thales towed Captas sonars, but for the sub they went with Lockheed who also provided the SUBICS Combat System, not to be confused with the French SUBTICS. This also simplified the integration of other US weapon systems and sensors, as the software interfaces were already available and real-life tested. The costs mentioned in the video refer to the full project, including facility and specific manufacturing equipment which are fixed costs to be spread over the class, not oto be allocated in full to the first unit. The unit cost and sales tag is foreseen to be in line with those of comparable subs: 500-700 million €. Final price depends on client customization. I think the S80Plus class is going to be limited to the currently finished unit, also as a testbed, plus the 2 hulls underway, of the 6 initially foreseen. The other three shall probably be cancelled in favour of the S90 already in conceptual work: jet pump propulsion, x steering tail instead of the traditional cross scheme, VL for cruise missiles ... … AIP/new battery technology/revival of nuclear? The country is one of the few with Armed Forces funded way below the country's economic weight. It laggers behind not complying NATO's 2% GDP minimum. For good or bad, it's the choice of its people and elected leaders. 550 million € only in next years gender policies ... a bloated Public Admin with a cost of 500.000 million € (=US$ 565 billion) ... and without discussing about the too generous welfare state ... so no budgetary excuse to have one of the finest and best equipped EU Armed Forces.
@27:40 If I recall properly the problem was the extra weight made the submarine have not enough positive buoyancy due to extra weight, then was made even bigger to solve this, but then couldn't fit in the docks... Yes, a National Mess indeed
Around 33:30 Electrolyte in a fuel cell AND in a battery is most typically an electron insulator. Only IONS can pass through the electrolyte. The elecrtons pass through an external load - else you would just have shorted your battery / fuel cell.
CNS Carrera SS-24, was moored beside submarine tender BMS-42 Almirante Merino during the februrary 27th, 2010 earthquake and tsunami. It suffered minor damage upon collision with the dock on its bow, and it's been since repaired and on service.
I apreciate this analysis! However, I have to say that you are outdated about the spanish S-80. The reason why it has lasted so much is because Spain decides to break completely their contract with France and start producing a new submarine totally by their own. As the first time they designed a submarine, lot of mistakes (and big ones) were made. This and the lack of budgets are the reasons why the spanish S-80 have been delayed so much. Despite of this, these sumbarines are now under construction and the first of them is indeed during its sea final tests. This is not a excuse, because the production of theese submarines has been bad. For example: their AIP has not been implemented yet (the first one is now sailing with a traditional diesel propulsion). I encourage you @Sub Brief to give the S-80 another oportunity and see if they are worthit. Thanks for all the knownledge that you give to us!
Really, very good video! thank you And thank you for all the work done to make it. Like all your other videos To have the pronunciation closest to French. For English speakers it is necessary to replace the 'ene' of "Scorpene" in "ain": Scorpain. And you have to say it, like it is an english word : Scorpain. Bye and waiting for your next video with impatience :)
I feel like the part with the Black Shark sonar thing makes too much sense to be considered a new technology. I thought they've had it for a long time but just didn't tell anyone
Isnt the usage of methanol or ethanol as AIP-fuel a bit of an issue? How do you want to get rid of the exhaust gases (CO2 in those cases)? Either you push it out of the sub or you store it inside. Either you worsen the acoustic signature or you sacrifice space for additional tanks and a compressor. Completely noiseless and without moving parts, this should be quite difficult ...
IIRC, there is no CO-free option with using hydrocarbon fuels. All those leave carbon byproducts like combustion, because in the end, they are products of an oxidation reaction.
co2 isnt much of a problem apparently it goes into water just fine. nitrogen is problem. so if you use pure oxygen to burn something co2 will just absorb into water. it was the same with long lance torpedoes not much bubbles because of pure oxygen. at least thats my understanding
It's gonna be awesome if you make a video about submarine weapon like torpedo or something like that. It's just my little idea for your channel, maybe you can consider it.
Is there any reason why the italian torpedo from WASS is used? (I suppose they are way way better than their French counterparts, at least before the F21 came out).
Non, les tubes de lancement français utilisent un vérin pneumatique (les torpilles françaises sont conçues pour fonctionner avec). Les autres marines rejettent la torpille avec de l'eau haut débit. C'est pour ça qu'ils n'ont pas de torpilles françaises.
As to the Malaysia submarine deal, just like the Pakistan's, was involved in a huge commission and murdering . Altantuya Sharriibbu, a model , was murdered by the guards of Deputy prime minister and Defense minister Mohd Najib and her body was destroyed by C4 dynamite. the mistress of a middleman Razak Baginda, one ex-Malaysia defense advisor who involved in the Scorpene submarine deal. Mohd Najib played a major in the scandal as well.
When the Scorpion came out, at the time I thought that they took the Rubis design, removed the nuclear reactor and replaced it with MESMA as the source of the steam for the turbogenerator, the Rubis used to make power for the electric motor which drove it's propeller.
$1.14 billion dollars a unit? That's insane! Considering the Australian Collins class boats were A$800 million (Which is probably somwhere around $550 million USD) per unit for a boat 1,000 tons greater displacement, and the UK is thought to be paying around £1.6 billion per unit for the Astute class (Around $2.1 billion USD), and they're SSNs with 3x the displacement, how did Spain mess this up so badly?
As I explained in a previous comment, that is the current full project expenditure including specific factory tooling plus the construction cost. Unit price is in the 500-700 million EUR depending on the final number of units built. The price is in-line with comparable 1st line conventional subs. In any case, due to the time delay it is 40% more than initially budgeted. I assume you are Australian, so you may understand that the Spanish sub project suffered akin to the Australian ATTACK delay more due to politics and navy chiefs of staff changing the goals and missions, changing the subs specifications with almost every cabinet.
I love your videos. However, I think you are mixing the scorpene class with the S80 spanish sub. The S80 is an independent spanish proyect of Navantia because at spain we wanted a better ship than the scorpene. Probably the ship looks quite similar becouse on the 90s navantia participated on the scorpene proyect and they learned from it, but the S80 is completely independent from france, a new and different sub. In addition, the proyect has been hit with several scandals on the press, but the mayority are not objective and driven by UK and France. The first S80 is now on testing, will enter service on 2023. The proyect has been very interesting, but requires quite a lot of reading to understand why it has been so slow.
The split between Navantia and Naval Group is linked to the wish of Nanvantia to develop a new sub based on the original French design but using different weapon systems. Naval group considered that this was infringing on its property rights and refused to continue to co-develop the submarine in those conditions. The divorce was agreed around 2010 and both groups then went ahead with their own design.
Scorpene was a 50% design between spain and france, with 60% of construction for france and 40% for Spain. The s80 is more better submarino than scorpene.
Question ! Considering the original french design was nuklear, why didn t Australia changed their conventional Scorpene deal to a nuke one ? Why design an entire new sub if all you would have to do is change the power plant? Such a sub and the Aukus one both still suffer from problems ! So why bother?
I believe there is no way France would have transferred nuclear technology to Australia. If they even attempted such a deal there would be a lot of geopolitical backlash, I can't see it happening. The AUKUS deal on the other hand is the only way such a deal could be made nowadays. If Australians were to develop all the technology by themselves it could take many years with political/population support for the program, or take decades otherwise.
@@marcouno8850 As we speak they are building a nuclear power plant in china ! No backlash there! But they don t wanna do that in Australia ?And rather lose the contract ? That is hard to believe! To my knowlege they weren t even asked! Austrailia will have to import know how to build any submarine ,let alone a nuclear one! Also they have to build in any chase new specialized facilitys to build those! Even with Aukus it will take decades , especially if you consider that they only have an agreement right now ! No design or anything! While with the frence one you already have a design which can come as either conventional or nuclear! At best Aukus is just as fast but I doubt even that! Even if the say otherwise ! Political and economical shinanigans are probably the bigger factor than any sane argument here! Not that im angry or anything , this is just the game!
@@christianjunghanel6724 I see man, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. About the nuclear power plant in China, it is not the first nuclear power plant being built on another country, there have been many. But a deal to build a nuclear submarine for another country is probably the first. It's all I meant by that. I'm definitely not qualified to talk specifics, but there is a whole lot more technical and engineering challenges in fitting and operating a nuclear reactor inside a submarine and making it effective. You are definitely right, the world is run on political and economical shenanigans.
The Australians had already lost confidence in Naval Group - they were already years behind schedule and way over budget. Besides that, the Frech nuclear submarines use an older technology that requires refueling every 10 years with the submarine out of commision for an extended period. The newer technology in US and British boats allows them to operate for over 30 years before requiring refueling. In addition Australia already had deep alliances with the US such as ANZUS in which Australia and the US jointly operate secret spying, radar, and military communications networks, They are both members of Five Eyes, and their militaries have a high degree of interoperability and regularly train together. AUKUS builds upon existing treaties and a long history of sharing sensitive technologies. For example, Australia is the only nation outside the US to be given permission to own and operate the Growler electronic warfare fighter jet. Australia also manufactures significant components of the F35 such as tail fin and wing components and parts of the weapons systems. Co-operation is deep and has existed for more than a century. France, on the other hand, was new to the Australian military, and has not had historic ties other than Australians fighting in France in the First World War. Thus any negotiations would be starting from scratch, and probably with great reluctance on the part of France. France would also not be in a position of being able to lease nuclear submarines to Australia while new ones were built. Lastly, the problems experienced by Naval Group in planning for the Australian Attack Class suggest that the larger boat required by Australia in larger quanties may have been a project of a scale that was beyond their capabilities. We will never know whether they could have successfully completed the project in any reasonable time frame, but the long delays and almost doubling the budget came under great criticism in Australia and the government had been under great pressure to drop the Naval Group build. It was widely discussed that for the same price as the Naval Group project was going to cost, the country could build nuclear powered submarines. Negotiations for the new AUKUS alliance took only a few months, and it is widely supported by the Australian public. Considering the large amount of reporting on the need to cancel the Naval Group contract in the year leading up to the cancellation, it is surprising that the French government claimed to be surprised by it. It seems that the French acceptance of large cost overruns and shedule delays blinded them to how other nations would view this sort of incompetence. Considering how poorly Naval Group performed in the conventional submarine project, it is not difficult to appreciate that Australia would be reluctant to trust them on another submarine build.
Regarding Lula being setup:According to brazilian news at the time (and this viewer treacherous memory) He was indded ratted by his former campaign treasurer and Minister of Economy, as well as several hi-profile politicians, party officers, gov't officials, director and owners of companies involved in the bribery (one of the is one of the major construction companies in Brazil). He was eventually released from "prison" by our supreme court. I out prison inside quotation marks because he was indeed in an office ate the Policia Federal (our FBI) building in Curitiba, not behind bars. I might be biased and/or incomplete in my summary. If anyone disagrees of feels I left something out, just add below, just do not expect any answers.
Good comment! I really do believe he was involved in those corruption schemes but the whole thing seems like a setup to some extent too. Like it was hybrid warfare/threat exploiting a real problem. Almost all government officials found guilty of corruption are no longer in jail but all the companies involved were basically destroyed, some used to be huge and were venturing in defense technology sectors too. The political and economical crisis that followed was pretty bad as well. I find it weird how the judge that condemned the former president got so much attention that he is going to run for president on next year's election. If our political parties did not use tax payer's money to pay for their campaigns I'd bet some of the campaign money would have similar origins to that used to get him so much press coverage during the past few years. I'm putting away my tinfoil hat now.. but there is a lot to be learned if we pay attention to all that has happened over the past few years.
I recommend doing a dive (pun intended) into the scandals surrounding the Malaysian Scorpene order. Corruption, sexual affairs (alleged) & a gruesome murder
Its not a scorpene hull, the alvaro alberto will be larger than the barracuda, and the reactor has already been developed and is under testing in a navy research facility called LABGENE basically a real scale model of the Alvaro Alberto's power plant section with the nuclear reactor and generators inside. Basically the agreement with france was transfer of technology of modern submarine hull construction and subsystems, the nuclear submarine design is not a scorpene
I realize these ate the same people who approved a boat too big for them to build, but wouldn't it have been easier to get the French design and modify it after? At least for the first hull.
"They haven't even started building their first submarine... " The first S-80 submarine was launched in May this year. Just one example of how poorly researched this latest upload is. Also, you might want to check Spain's history in regards to designing and building its own submarines, you might be surprised. As for nuclear treaties and Brazil's presidencies, the US has no credibility at all, after its promotion of nuclear weapons amongst terror states like Israel, leaving the INF Treaty, continous opposition to non-proliferation, see Diego García, and never-ending CIA coups and wars against any country, specially democracies, like Mossadegh's, Lula's, or name pretty much any country in latin America, which challenge US imperialism and subsequent installment of US puppet dictators and war criminals trained by the School of the Americas, like Pinochet, or clowns like Bolsonaro, etc. I could go on...
Dude, your data regarding the S-80 is kinda biased. Also, I suggeest to be less condescendent. You speak as if the US never underestimated a military project (aka F-35). And finally the first s-80 is now in final outfitting and sea trials. And btw, what you call small (Abengoa) is a 7 Billion Euro company... Imknow its difficult to grasp for US people, but guess what, not every country speaking spanish will bend over to you.
So let me get this straight Jonesy, a 40 million dollar computer tells you that you're chasing an earthquake and you don't believe it, so you came up with this all on your own?
It's the Scorpène not the Scorpion! Just like te french aircraft fighter is called the rafalle, but you ammericans all call it the rafael. Don't they teach you how to read? At least you as a "expert" should get the name right.
The Scorpène is named after the scorpion fish, no? Or, poisson scorpène if you wanna be technical (anal). Personally, even knowing the said info, I might still just say "scorpion" because we're speaking English and it sounds a little pretentious (anal) to me to try and sound fluent in a language that I don't know. Also, I find it funny that you're criticizing JT's pronunciation when you, apparently, can neither spell nor properly construct a sentence. PS I realize some of my grammar might be wrong, but I'm sure you'll swoop in and save the day by telling me exactly where and how I messed up. Thanks in advance!
Yeah it's a tongue twister for us Americans so we tend to default to the translation. We generally dont teach our children to speak obscure languages... like French. English IS the international language of communication. Heck, you typed your message in English. Deal with it.
There are major differences between Spain's S-80 (plus) submarine and the Scorpene SSK. I go over them in great detail in this lecture.
Great!. I am looking forward for your lecture.
The size of the yard was not a problem, the real thing was a not safe enough (for La Armada) reserve of buoyancy. After contracting Electric Boat they enlarge the "animal". They had also had serious problems with the AIP system.
The first Spanish S-80, the S-81, is now in the dock. They are installing the last equipment and will go under sea trials next March with the idea of having it ready for La Armada in one year, when the second one, the S-82, will be at dock (like S81 is today). This two submarines do not have the AIP system that will be installed in the first major overhaul; they could do it but the Armada refused the idea for safety reasons.
The S-83 and S-84 are under construction to be in dock in 2023 and 2024 ( expected to be commissioned 2024 and 2025 respectively), both will have the AIP since the beginning.
That is the data as I remembered.
Actually, there's some similarity between Scorpene and S-80, but it's really skin deep. Scorpene wasn't a coporduction agreement insofar as Navantia (Bazan) didn't have access to the combat system, design info other than what they built and had to use providers certified by the French. Despite this, at one point Scorpene was anounced as the future S-80, but as mentioned, the deal failed for political reasons and Navantia went alone, mismanaging the project spectacularly as mentioned in the previous answer. Once proper redesign had been completed with EB help, the project has been coming along nicely. There were some uncertainties around the AIP plant (which ended up being bigger and only fit in the redesigned boat) including fuel cells (which aren't produced in Spain, but in the US). Spanish companies had to create the combat system from the ground up and integrate the German torpedoes, so the boat is in fact quite different from Scorpene.
Thanks ! I'll watch this one with GREAT interest !
@@lgriestra They should have decoupled the AIP issue ... and gone initially conventional diesel/electric, which they finally had to do .. as the wait could not be further delayed. India's native AIP project also dragged the same problem, delaying its Scòrpene launch, and also took the decision to launch the first units with conventional propulsion. New developments in batteries as pioneered by Japan and Korea in their latest subs may provide a temporary stopgap until new gen AIP irons outs some of the technological obstacles.
It reminds me of the F35 fighter, where the B (STOL/VTOL) version has hampered all the project, it should have been spinned off ... It shares some commonalities but is more of a different species. A (conventional) and C(arrier) versions would have reached availability and market before if not subordinated to their lagging and more complex brother.
I would love for you to do a deepdive on the Gotland class (A 19) subs
All Chilean Scorpenes are currently operational. I can personally attest to that. I've seen them both at an International Tallship Fair in Valparaiso just a couple of years ago (probably 2018 or 2019).
I go over all the differences.
@@SubBrief hm?
@@SubBrief wut
@@SubBrief That's the answer to Pedro's comment.
That's a LOT of sub briefs lately, very nice
Thanks very much for your video. I think they are really appreciated by the submarine fans all around the world.
A couple of comments:
- The dry dock expansion has to be triggered due the enlargement of the class from 70 meters (210 feets) to 80 meters (240 feets). So the root cause was not they "forgot" to build a proper dry dock, but the overweight problem detected in the initial desing.
- The first submarine of its class S81 has been already laid down. It will perform its sea trials on 2022 and will be commisioned in 2023.
I agree with the rest of my spanish colleagues, S80 can not be considered anymore a Scorpene submarine. I will say it will deserve a separate video on its own when its real capabilities are exposed.
Best regards
October 2024: S81 still not commissioned. S82 delayed to at least 2026. No AIP in sight. No VLS capacity either.
S80 is a complete different submarine to the Scorpene. The main reason why Navantia did not get well with then DCNS was the 2002 short time conflict between Spain and Marrocoo about the occupation of a tiny island named "Perejil" in the African side of the Strait of Gibraltar. The island (togheter with other military posts) is under the soveranity of Spain but It was occupied by a small marrocco police team to trigger the popularity of the young king of Marrocoo just in the throne after the dead of his father king Mohamed VI. The action was pushed by Jacques Chirac, president of France who was against the pro US political position of the Spanish Aznar prime minister. The French though Aznar will move back to avoid the conflict but he didn't. After the police team was sent back to Marrocoo the political relations between Spain in one side and France and Marroco in the other side were broken and the 50-50 commercial agreement between Navantia and DCNS started to fail. Spanish armada requested a complete different project base on power cells AIP and US combat and weapons systems instead of french ones and the projected Spanish submarines were not to be a Scorpene type any more. Navantia was not prepared to design a new submarine from scratch on its own and DCNS didn't allow Navantia to use the same Scorpene supply chain. This is the origin of all the problems, very top level requirements and lack of preparation. To make the things worst, there was a big social and labour row in Navantia and lots of very experience employees were forced to retire in advance of the statutory age. It is clear, because of poor design capabilities, that matching the updates of the already existin design with complete new requirements and equipment will be very challenging and critical issues like weight and buoyancy balance would be happening. Submarine design and fabrication capacities and capabilities are extremely difficult to get and Navantia, the Spanish armada and the soul of Isaac Peral are still following a very step learning curve. PD: Finally, Chirac got what he liked, selling weapons to Marroco.
I go over all the differences.
Who cares about that? Your sub is a complete failure and the only thing it will ever sink is Navantia itself.
The distributed array sounds a lot like what they use in astronomy. They call it "interferometry" and they'll use multiple radio telescopes over a certain area (sometimes thousands of miles/km apart) and software to stitch it together. It's about as effective as having a single telescope the same size as the distance between the receivers, and it's how they got that picture of a black hole a couple of years ago (among many other things).
I go over all the differences.
@@SubBrief I just think it's cool the way similar concepts show up in seemingly vastly different fields like astronomy and sonar. I know it's not a 1:1 comparison, but it's still kinda neat.
From the macro to the micro similar technology is also used in semiconductor production.
Yes.. And the raw data those telescopes collate is usually in petabytes..
It's much more faster for them to physically courier a copy of the physical stack of hard hard drives than to send them over the internet; to the lab that has the supercomputers to figure out the raw data points and give a intelligible output..
Mind-blowing operation.. 🤯
Hi!. Both Chilean Scorpenes are in service after the 2010 27F tsunami. For example, the Carrera participated in DESI 2021 in San Diego, and the O'Higgins participated in Chilemar VII with the US Navy Undersea Rescue Command. The submarine on drydock Talcahuano was the Ecuadorian BAE Shyri. The upgrade process of this U209 type boat was completed successfully on 2012
I LOVE your channel. Love these lectures. I have learned so much from you.
Romania is looking for this type of sub. We need at less 2 or 3 off this. All information here are gold compared with media coverage about this subject. Thank you!
Good for Romania!
3 is the magic number. 1 in operation, 1 in training, 1 in maintenance.
The S-80 cannot fire Tomahawks at the moment and it isn't clear if it will ever be able to. The Spanish Navy has not been able to make a deal with the US and acquire the libraries necessary to integrate this capability within the SCOMBA system. Same goes for the F-110.
Good update. Thank you.
Don't know how I missed this one. Keep up the great work, man!
All these releases to YT this week has been amazing! Love the content, keep doing your thing!
Excellent video, but just a correction: 1985 wasn't the year in which the military coup happened in Brazil, it was the year that the military dictatorship (which started with a military coup in 1964) ended
Given that Australia is now in the process of acquiring nuclear submarines and the US is supporting them, it would be inappropriate for the US to continue criticizing Brazil for it's nuclear submarine program. Plus the Brazilian reactor uses low enriched uranium and is a low proliferation threat.
Is the U.S. criticizing Brazil? I haven't see that.
@@SubBrief Yes captain, I suppose me saying criticizing is too harsh when you did say it was only a point of contention. It would be interesting to see what they build ultimately, a nuclear submarine based on a diesel-electric design. That would make her one of the smallest nuclear subs in the world, similar to the Rubis class.
The thing, AFAIK, is that even from low enriched one is able to get plutonium from the spent fuel after reprocessing. Brazil was researching fuel reprocessing in the past, but something happened and the matter was left alone. As a concerned citizen, I prefer Brazil doesn't join the Club, we can barely play the diplomacy game, it's folly to think that nukes will help.
@@marcondespaulo And your South American neighbors will be spooked as well.
@@abigailroberts7943 I guess anyone with half a brain would be spooked when you neighbor has nuke weapons, or even nuclear grade uranium.
Naval Group is building new infrastructure in Cherbourg because they anticipate a lot of Scorpène orders in months and years to come. It really turned out to be big hit, it fits a lot of smaller navies.
5 of the Indian boats have been completed, 4 are active INS Kalvari, INS Khanderi, INS Karanj and INS Vela, Sea trials are on going for INS Vagir. The last one INS Vagsheer is in production and no the AIP has not been fitted on the fifth boat.
Although it is not mentioned directly in almost any document of the navy, the main reasons for the break with the French shipping company; France did not want to share all the plans for the submarine with Spain, political problems between the two countries. Certainly Something of Spanish Pride ... in the naval fairs our shipping company was treated as a mere comparsa, when in those years we manufactured the best frigates in the world. So it was decided to break the relationship and produce a good national submarine. And the United States thought it good to help us a little bit in order to unseat France from the Armament market. It is the typical fight between America and Europe for the world market ... and Spain always in the middle.
Sub cooperation between DCNS (nowadays Naval Group) with then Bazán (afterwards Irizar, and finally Navantia as the spinoff with the military shipyards, remaining the civilian in the former) had started decades before with the local construction of the S60 Daphné class, followed by its successor, the S70 Agosta class. S80 Scorpène was a 50%-50% project, as the initial buyer was to be Spain with 6 units, and any other sales would be export, as by then the French had decided to go all nuclear powered for their own future subs.
DCNS role in international fairs was not of a trusted partner, ommiting the fact to potential clients that it was in a partnership. We see a similar attitude in the current FCAS project, always downplaying their Spanish partners. No wonder that with the Eurofighter headaches prior to France's exit, Italy preferred to go with the Brits on the Tempest. The sole fact Spain is there, is due to Germany.
True that the sub was basically a french design, but it incorporated inputs also from the Spanish shipyard and Navy due to long exposure to the French (DCNS) way of designing and manufacturing. And thus it is no surprise that the S80 also had a certain external family look, regardless that the "environment" obviously defines the shape and as convergent evolution shows: independent organisms evolve to similar traits ... we see this also in aeronautics and the automotive industry.
The US and France (starting with DeGaulle) had supplied the Spanish civil nuclear program, and the latter also floated the proposal of a nuclear sub. The Armada found the french subs fine for littoral tasks but unpractical to cover the >2000 Km one way distance and patrol from the mainland to the Canary Islands. Project SUBESPRON addressed this need of a true ocean sub capability and deterrance with a nuclear sub, for which the French floated a Rubis derivative. It was shelved among other issues due to the fuel dependency and high cost.
This was no uninterested move, first: the need of a partner with whom to share costs; and a way to lock in Spain's dependency, who until then was an important buyer of French civil and military products (tanks AMX30, Mirage planes, the above mentioned subs ...). Since the XVIII century, with the Bourbon dynasty in the Spanish throne, the country's policy was alligned or subordinated to the French, dragging us to wars with the Brits, in favour of the US, the conquest of Indochina (VietNam), and Morocco, in which Spain made significant contributions, payed a high price, and in those that succeeded, got no acknowledgement.
Some of the Spanish military services had began to abandon the French military dependancy; one of the first blows was the German Leopard tank; the sale of the Spanish Artillery Ordnance Company to GDLS instead of to AMX-GIAT; remain in the EF consortium and not bail out to following FR in the Rafale ... HK instead of FAMAS ... ...
The difference between the Spanish AIP and the rest is that the Spanish have managed to create hydrogen inside the submarine based on bioethanol, the other AIP systems have to load the hydrogen in port when they run out. That is why the Spanish submarine will have an autonomy of at least three weeks while the rest of the submarines will only last 12-13 days... the technological leap of the Spanish submarine is enormous
India has also developer such system based on PAFC system
AIP fuel cells are already obsolete tech, all the major submarine manufacturers have moved on to generate power with Li-ion batteries, all of them ,except Russia maybe.
It will be even more obsolete when it comes out, supposedly in a few years.
If it ever happens, actually...
Before I retired in 2018 at 70 years of age the RN/MoD was asked by NG and French MoD/MN to look at the stealth coating using rubber and other systems, they came to visit me and my team to see how we did it for the RN. They came in about 2013 for a visit and a tour from me and a specialist naval architect. We gave them the grand tour and discussed the design changes that would be necessary for an acoustic stealth system. They decided from the feedback that was given to me that they felt that the required modifications were too troublesome and too expensive to incorporate into their boats. I do not know to the extent of the models of boats that they intended to use our stealth (quite extensive and complicated) technology, I originally thought it was just the French service boats (we do not provide designs for third parties as the design would alter as to the individual parameters service as each navy has different operational requirements; normal operational depths and so on). I am now thinking that the French intended the technology for the Australian boats and the boats they have sold on to other nations on their AIP designs enabling them to provide a selling point for their boats abroad.
My personal feeling is that I would not trust the French not to sell on our detailed knowledge onward to make money. Fortunately the level of detail we gave was just enough to understand what is involved and work out what they had to consider - I think they are NATO but I am not sure.
I have helped the Swedes under the NATO umbrella for some technology transfer in the past and I have help them solved problems on their boats in the past on noise allowed by MoD.
I have put these notes for you to consider for context.
My old Company has a considerable presence in Australia on their surface ships ( or targets as like to call them) and for their submarines.
Kind regards
The amount of sub briefs in the last week are blowing my mind. There's so many
i think those are reuploads or something. in one of those he says "up to now in 2019" i think in typhoon one
Second question; The s-80's manufacturing problem was not (initially) its size. The problem is that the initial calculations were made wrong and the submarine was 70 tons overweight. Spain at this time decided to request help from General Electric Boats (General Electric). The submarine had to be lengthened by X meters, resulting in the need to lengthen the ship's mooring docks (not the dry dock). Regarding the System Independete de Aire, it will be incorporated in the next revision of the ship; It no longer joined because Spain needs operational submarines as soon as possible. And there was no time to finish the development of the API and incorporate it. So the first 2 units skip next year without API and the last 2 if they will have API.
The dock was planned to be increased since the very beginning of the project
Christian Villanueva of Ejercitos magazine, is a great expert in the S80 Odyssey, which he gone through in many articles. He himself is a naval engineer, and is going a publish a book on the subject, compiling these plus foreseable additional and updated information.
The calculation or buoyancy error was a caricatured simplification of a problem in a project where the requirements are a moving target with specifications changing over time. The sub did float and could be used in its S80 incarnation, but it had exhausted its space reserve for future expansion. And the Navy did not accept a limp duck with constrained possibilities. The problem of Public owned Companies is that there is a high chance that the guy placed at the helm has no idea about the business. The flop of sending to early retirement some of the best engineers and experienced workforce was one of the worst. Their successors were naive in not checking this. And surely the poor freshmen were not aware that the CAD/CAM system was advising of this mismatch, probably lost in a specific tab or menu option.
Electric Boat is a division of General Dynamics, Navantia's long time US partner, whose F110 derived was proposed in the FFG(X) tender. Despite this, the protocol required the assistance and supervision for the S80 to be channelled through the Navies of both countries. General Electric is the supplier of the US submarines nuclear reactors, licenced to the Brits for local manufacturing by RR.
Talking about the Brits, if you look at the timeline of the first Astute it has not much to envy the S80 in mishaps. The sub had also to be enlarged as since its design the reactor had jumped to a new generation. It was more powerful, but bulkier. Here too Electric Boat was called in. In practice the EB team ended being deployed for a longer term than initially expected, and in practice runnning the shipyard.
@@santoriniblue8413 correct. And read his article from the S80 odyssey.
Some of the points are wrong; The death of the rupture of Relations between Navantia and DCN (the French group at that time) were largely political, but in GREAT GREAT MEASURE military and technology. As you know, it was French since the 90's, frigates and destroyers (FG Fidgor Najsden and Hobart) equipped with the AEGIS System as well as its F-100 and F1-105 frigates equipped with AEGIS Systems (of North American manufacture). Two months after the attacks of September 11, 2001, the navy staff determined that the characteristics of the ship should be different (it should have API and ground attack capacity, as well as the capacity to deploy special units). Scorpio did NOT have these characteristics. Our partner frabxes did not want to change his project, so Spain decided to ally with Locked-Martin. Thus the new S-80 would have: A new API unit, ground attack capability (tomahawks) and a new sonar (a sonar derived from the one used in the USS VIRGINIA (provided by Locked Martin. joint project with France and Build your own S-80 with the collaboration of Locked Martin.
The caricaturization of Navantia's S80 project by their main competitors, specially NG, is precisely a sign of fear, that they take it as a serious competitor ... else they would not even bother.
They felt the pinch with the success of the F100 frigates and the LHDs. And the S80 sub project was seen as a serious potential challenger to the West conventional sub export market duopoly of NG and TKNS, with their respective Scorpène and 212 products. There are some other players like Saab (ex Kolum) with good now how, mainly oriented to its country’s needs, like its Gripen fighter; but with export projects not materializing, as all military purchases have also a significant political implication beyond the industrial or technical specifications per se.
The adoption and the feat of the then new frigates of boasting advanced US Navy equipment like AN/SPY, Aegis, Mark 41 VLs on a hull smaller than an Arleigh Burke (aka a mini AB, something that had been considered impossible) and exposure to other potential naval equipment and purveyors like Raytheon and Lockheed, convinced the Armada that the French equipment was first class, but some of the US was comparable if not better in some categories.
Due to strategic and commercial arguments, French equipment was avoided whenever posible in the sub. The frigates do use the excellent Thales towed Captas sonars, but for the sub they went with Lockheed who also provided the SUBICS Combat System, not to be confused with the French SUBTICS. This also simplified the integration of other US weapon systems and sensors, as the software interfaces were already available and real-life tested.
The costs mentioned in the video refer to the full project, including facility and specific manufacturing equipment which are fixed costs to be spread over the class, not oto be allocated in full to the first unit. The unit cost and sales tag is foreseen to be in line with those of comparable subs: 500-700 million €. Final price depends on client customization.
I think the S80Plus class is going to be limited to the currently finished unit, also as a testbed, plus the 2 hulls underway, of the 6 initially foreseen. The other three shall probably be cancelled in favour of the S90 already in conceptual work: jet pump propulsion, x steering tail instead of the traditional cross scheme, VL for cruise missiles ... … AIP/new battery technology/revival of nuclear?
The country is one of the few with Armed Forces funded way below the country's economic weight. It laggers behind not complying NATO's 2% GDP minimum. For good or bad, it's the choice of its people and elected leaders.
550 million € only in next years gender policies ... a bloated Public Admin with a cost of 500.000 million € (=US$ 565 billion) ... and without discussing about the too generous welfare state ... so no budgetary excuse to have one of the finest and best equipped EU Armed Forces.
Great information, good job!
I believe adaption of off-the-shelf electronics and other systems started while back (1990s) along with MIL-STD.
The Oberon had distributed arrays in the 1950s with the Type 186 sonar. Very advanced for its time and it had an incredible detection ability.
Love this man
@27:40 If I recall properly the problem was the extra weight made the submarine have not enough positive buoyancy due to extra weight, then was made even bigger to solve this, but then couldn't fit in the docks...
Yes, a National Mess indeed
Around 33:30 Electrolyte in a fuel cell AND in a battery is most typically an electron insulator. Only IONS can pass through the electrolyte. The elecrtons pass through an external load - else you would just have shorted your battery / fuel cell.
CNS Carrera SS-24, was moored beside submarine tender BMS-42 Almirante Merino during the februrary 27th, 2010 earthquake and tsunami. It suffered minor damage upon collision with the dock on its bow, and it's been since repaired and on service.
I have a question, is the S-Br/Riachuelo class version of the Scorpene an enlarged version of the Scorpene conventional can be installed with AIP?
Which diesel electric sub would you rate as the overall best itw? Lada , Soryu , Scorpene , Type 212 or Yuan class ?
Wow! The shark torpedo is super impressive
Founded 1631.
Australians order submarines around 1897...
Delivery expected sometimes around the launch of Enterprise-D (NCC-1701-D)
I apreciate this analysis! However, I have to say that you are outdated about the spanish S-80. The reason why it has lasted so much is because Spain decides to break completely their contract with France and start producing a new submarine totally by their own.
As the first time they designed a submarine, lot of mistakes (and big ones) were made. This and the lack of budgets are the reasons why the spanish S-80 have been delayed so much.
Despite of this, these sumbarines are now under construction and the first of them is indeed during its sea final tests.
This is not a excuse, because the production of theese submarines has been bad. For example: their AIP has not been implemented yet (the first one is now sailing with a traditional diesel propulsion).
I encourage you @Sub Brief to give the S-80 another oportunity and see if they are worthit.
Thanks for all the knownledge that you give to us!
Really, very good video! thank you
And thank you for all the work done to make it. Like all your other videos
To have the pronunciation closest to French. For English speakers it is necessary to replace the 'ene' of "Scorpene" in "ain": Scorpain.
And you have to say it, like it is an english word : Scorpain.
Bye and waiting for your next video with impatience :)
I feel like the part with the Black Shark sonar thing makes too much sense to be considered a new technology. I thought they've had it for a long time but just didn't tell anyone
Isnt the usage of methanol or ethanol as AIP-fuel a bit of an issue?
How do you want to get rid of the exhaust gases (CO2 in those cases)? Either you push it out of the sub or you store it inside.
Either you worsen the acoustic signature or you sacrifice space for additional tanks and a compressor. Completely noiseless and without moving parts, this should be quite difficult ...
IIRC, there is no CO-free option with using hydrocarbon fuels. All those leave carbon byproducts like combustion, because in the end, they are products of an oxidation reaction.
co2 isnt much of a problem apparently it goes into water just fine. nitrogen is problem. so if you use pure oxygen to burn something co2 will just absorb into water. it was the same with long lance torpedoes not much bubbles because of pure oxygen. at least thats my understanding
4th Indian Navy kalvari class has been commissioned. INS Vela
what long before they did in philippines tossing people of of helios huh? where u get your info bro
24:00
God, your reaction is absolutely hilarious.
Very nice information about scorpene ....from malaysia 👍👍👍👍
It's gonna be awesome if you make a video about submarine weapon like torpedo or something like that. It's just my little idea for your channel, maybe you can consider it.
Is there any reason why the italian torpedo from WASS is used? (I suppose they are way way better than their French counterparts, at least before the F21 came out).
Non, les tubes de lancement français utilisent un vérin pneumatique (les torpilles françaises sont conçues pour fonctionner avec). Les autres marines rejettent la torpille avec de l'eau haut débit. C'est pour ça qu'ils n'ont pas de torpilles françaises.
Just to note Thales is pronounced Taless. Great vid by the way
To my understanding tossing people out of helicopters was pioneered in Algeria during the independence war ending in 1962...
What sort of acoustic signature does the air independent system generate?
As to the Malaysia submarine deal, just like the Pakistan's, was involved in a huge commission and murdering . Altantuya Sharriibbu, a model , was murdered by the guards of Deputy prime minister and Defense minister Mohd Najib and her body was destroyed by C4 dynamite. the mistress of a middleman Razak Baginda, one ex-Malaysia defense advisor who involved in the Scorpene submarine deal. Mohd Najib played a major in the scandal as well.
Agreed
SM39 Exocet range is nowhere near 100 miles, even in the newer Block 2 variant, as it still relies on solid rocket propulsion.
In Spain our Armada is a matter of national pride. We are pretty sure our new S81 can dive fast, at least 1 time.
I wonder if you'll do a video about the Yasen class
Was the Scorpene a conventional version of the Rubis class nuclear subs? Would you do a subbrief on the Rubis please.
When the Scorpion came out, at the time I thought that they took the Rubis design, removed the nuclear reactor and replaced it with MESMA as the source of the steam for the turbogenerator, the Rubis used to make power for the electric motor which drove it's propeller.
$1.14 billion dollars a unit? That's insane!
Considering the Australian Collins class boats were A$800 million (Which is probably somwhere around $550 million USD) per unit for a boat 1,000 tons greater displacement, and the UK is thought to be paying around £1.6 billion per unit for the Astute class (Around $2.1 billion USD), and they're SSNs with 3x the displacement, how did Spain mess this up so badly?
As I explained in a previous comment, that is the current full project expenditure including specific factory tooling plus the construction cost. Unit price is in the 500-700 million EUR depending on the final number of units built. The price is in-line with comparable 1st line conventional subs. In any case, due to the time delay it is 40% more than initially budgeted. I assume you are Australian, so you may understand that the Spanish sub project suffered akin to the Australian ATTACK delay more due to politics and navy chiefs of staff changing the goals and missions, changing the subs specifications with almost every cabinet.
I love your videos.
However, I think you are mixing the scorpene class with the S80 spanish sub. The S80 is an independent spanish proyect of Navantia because at spain we wanted a better ship than the scorpene. Probably the ship looks quite similar becouse on the 90s navantia participated on the scorpene proyect and they learned from it, but the S80 is completely independent from france, a new and different sub.
In addition, the proyect has been hit with several scandals on the press, but the mayority are not objective and driven by UK and France.
The first S80 is now on testing, will enter service on 2023.
The proyect has been very interesting, but requires quite a lot of reading to understand why it has been so slow.
I go over all the differences.
The split between Navantia and Naval Group is linked to the wish of Nanvantia to develop a new sub based on the original French design but using different weapon systems. Naval group considered that this was infringing on its property rights and refused to continue to co-develop the submarine in those conditions. The divorce was agreed around 2010 and both groups then went ahead with their own design.
Glen Greenwald is a good journalist.
Spain should buy one of the small one, to defend Gibraltar 😍
Hmm 🤔 the name of the country is CHILE with E not chili 🤦🏻
Yep, english speakers spell Chile, like NIke or CETME.
In the other hand, we spell USA badly, we should say “ Iuesei” lol
The diesel-eletric brasilian subs até 4(four)
Scorpene was a 50% design between spain and france, with 60% of construction for france and 40% for Spain.
The s80 is more better submarino than scorpene.
Is this the only class of subs that are built for big black shark torpedoes?
Question ! Considering the original french design was nuklear, why didn t Australia changed their conventional Scorpene deal to a nuke one ? Why design an entire new sub if all you would have to do is change the power plant? Such a sub and the Aukus one both still suffer from problems ! So why bother?
I believe there is no way France would have transferred nuclear technology to Australia. If they even attempted such a deal there would be a lot of geopolitical backlash, I can't see it happening. The AUKUS deal on the other hand is the only way such a deal could be made nowadays. If Australians were to develop all the technology by themselves it could take many years with political/population support for the program, or take decades otherwise.
@@marcouno8850 As we speak they are building a nuclear power plant in china ! No backlash there! But they don t wanna do that in Australia ?And rather lose the contract ? That is hard to believe! To my knowlege they weren t even asked! Austrailia will have to import know how to build any submarine ,let alone a nuclear one! Also they have to build in any chase new specialized facilitys to build those! Even with Aukus it will take decades , especially if you consider that they only have an agreement right now ! No design or anything! While with the frence one you already have a design which can come as either conventional or nuclear! At best Aukus is just as fast but I doubt even that! Even if the say otherwise ! Political and economical shinanigans are probably the bigger factor than any sane argument here! Not that im angry or anything , this is just the game!
@@christianjunghanel6724 I see man, I agree with a lot of what you are saying. About the nuclear power plant in China, it is not the first nuclear power plant being built on another country, there have been many. But a deal to build a nuclear submarine for another country is probably the first. It's all I meant by that. I'm definitely not qualified to talk specifics, but there is a whole lot more technical and engineering challenges in fitting and operating a nuclear reactor inside a submarine and making it effective. You are definitely right, the world is run on political and economical shenanigans.
The Australians had already lost confidence in Naval Group - they were already years behind schedule and way over budget. Besides that, the Frech nuclear submarines use an older technology that requires refueling every 10 years with the submarine out of commision for an extended period. The newer technology in US and British boats allows them to operate for over 30 years before requiring refueling. In addition Australia already had deep alliances with the US such as ANZUS in which Australia and the US jointly operate secret spying, radar, and military communications networks, They are both members of Five Eyes, and their militaries have a high degree of interoperability and regularly train together.
AUKUS builds upon existing treaties and a long history of sharing sensitive technologies. For example, Australia is the only nation outside the US to be given permission to own and operate the Growler electronic warfare fighter jet. Australia also manufactures significant components of the F35 such as tail fin and wing components and parts of the weapons systems. Co-operation is deep and has existed for more than a century.
France, on the other hand, was new to the Australian military, and has not had historic ties other than Australians fighting in France in the First World War. Thus any negotiations would be starting from scratch, and probably with great reluctance on the part of France. France would also not be in a position of being able to lease nuclear submarines to Australia while new ones were built. Lastly, the problems experienced by Naval Group in planning for the Australian Attack Class suggest that the larger boat required by Australia in larger quanties may have been a project of a scale that was beyond their capabilities. We will never know whether they could have successfully completed the project in any reasonable time frame, but the long delays and almost doubling the budget came under great criticism in Australia and the government had been under great pressure to drop the Naval Group build.
It was widely discussed that for the same price as the Naval Group project was going to cost, the country could build nuclear powered submarines. Negotiations for the new AUKUS alliance took only a few months, and it is widely supported by the Australian public. Considering the large amount of reporting on the need to cancel the Naval Group contract in the year leading up to the cancellation, it is surprising that the French government claimed to be surprised by it. It seems that the French acceptance of large cost overruns and shedule delays blinded them to how other nations would view this sort of incompetence.
Considering how poorly Naval Group performed in the conventional submarine project, it is not difficult to appreciate that Australia would be reluctant to trust them on another submarine build.
@@artistjoh The part about the reactor is new to me ! You are right that is a solid argument ! Thx
thales is pronounced like talos (tal es) for those reading :)
The reason why Pinochet was not extradited from the UK is because during the Falkland war he provided valuable aid to the UK.
How comparable with Msian Scorpene?
Regarding Lula being setup:According to brazilian news at the time (and this viewer treacherous memory) He was indded ratted by his former campaign treasurer and Minister of Economy, as well as several hi-profile politicians, party officers, gov't officials, director and owners of companies involved in the bribery (one of the is one of the major construction companies in Brazil). He was eventually released from "prison" by our supreme court. I out prison inside quotation marks because he was indeed in an office ate the Policia Federal (our FBI) building in Curitiba, not behind bars.
I might be biased and/or incomplete in my summary. If anyone disagrees of feels I left something out, just add below, just do not expect any answers.
Good comment! I really do believe he was involved in those corruption schemes but the whole thing seems like a setup to some extent too. Like it was hybrid warfare/threat exploiting a real problem. Almost all government officials found guilty of corruption are no longer in jail but all the companies involved were basically destroyed, some used to be huge and were venturing in defense technology sectors too. The political and economical crisis that followed was pretty bad as well. I find it weird how the judge that condemned the former president got so much attention that he is going to run for president on next year's election. If our political parties did not use tax payer's money to pay for their campaigns I'd bet some of the campaign money would have similar origins to that used to get him so much press coverage during the past few years. I'm putting away my tinfoil hat now.. but there is a lot to be learned if we pay attention to all that has happened over the past few years.
Update: Lula is back
I recommend doing a dive (pun intended) into the scandals surrounding the Malaysian Scorpene order. Corruption, sexual affairs (alleged) & a gruesome murder
I CONCUR
Very unlikely the Brazilians will ever be able to squeeze a first generation indigenous reactor plant into the fairly small Scorpene hull.
Its not a scorpene hull, the alvaro alberto will be larger than the barracuda, and the reactor has already been developed and is under testing in a navy research facility called LABGENE basically a real scale model of the Alvaro Alberto's power plant section with the nuclear reactor and generators inside. Basically the agreement with france was transfer of technology of modern submarine hull construction and subsystems, the nuclear submarine design is not a scorpene
Pinochet is a hero who knows how to handle communisim. 🇨🇱
29:30 Ahhhh, I am gonna have to disagree that United Technologies is not a LARGE COMPANY or a not capable one.
I love ,hate this legend. I should be sleeping but this guy doesn’t care about my stuff
Spain built the S81 already
I realize these ate the same people who approved a boat too big for them to build, but wouldn't it have been easier to get the French design and modify it after? At least for the first hull.
Scorpene is a scorpion fish, that is a poisonous fish
"They haven't even started building their first submarine... "
The first S-80 submarine was launched in May this year. Just one example of how poorly researched this latest upload is. Also, you might want to check Spain's history in regards to designing and building its own submarines, you might be surprised.
As for nuclear treaties and Brazil's presidencies, the US has no credibility at all, after its promotion of nuclear weapons amongst terror states like Israel, leaving the INF Treaty, continous opposition to non-proliferation, see Diego García, and never-ending CIA coups and wars against any country, specially democracies, like Mossadegh's, Lula's, or name pretty much any country in latin America, which challenge US imperialism and subsequent installment of US puppet dictators and war criminals trained by the School of the Americas, like Pinochet, or clowns like Bolsonaro, etc.
I could go on...
i think this is very old one just reupload
@@jebise1126
Thanks, this would explain some of the nonsense.
Dude, your data regarding the S-80 is kinda biased. Also, I suggeest to be less condescendent. You speak as if the US never underestimated a military project (aka F-35). And finally the first s-80 is now in final outfitting and sea trials. And btw, what you call small (Abengoa) is a 7 Billion Euro company... Imknow its difficult to grasp for US people, but guess what, not every country speaking spanish will bend over to you.
Just ask Malaysia.
it is DICTATOR not president...
but... its not scorpion
“Build in India” is same as “never built”.
So let me get this straight Jonesy, a 40 million dollar computer tells you that you're chasing an earthquake and you don't believe it, so you came up with this all on your own?
It's the Scorpène not the Scorpion! Just like te french aircraft fighter is called the rafalle, but you ammericans all call it the rafael. Don't they teach you how to read? At least you as a "expert" should get the name right.
The Scorpène is named after the scorpion fish, no? Or, poisson scorpène if you wanna be technical (anal). Personally, even knowing the said info, I might still just say "scorpion" because we're speaking English and it sounds a little pretentious (anal) to me to try and sound fluent in a language that I don't know. Also, I find it funny that you're criticizing JT's pronunciation when you, apparently, can neither spell nor properly construct a sentence.
PS I realize some of my grammar might be wrong, but I'm sure you'll swoop in and save the day by telling me exactly where and how I messed up. Thanks in advance!
Yeah it's a tongue twister for us Americans so we tend to default to the translation. We generally dont teach our children to speak obscure languages... like French.
English IS the international language of communication. Heck, you typed your message in English. Deal with it.
@@navyreviewer And half of the words in your comment originate from French. What's your point?
Lol.
Humorectomies are tragic.
@@huntera123 LOL. Humorectomy! I'm stealing this one from you! Hillarious!😂😂
Premier? No thank you.
>Indian sub
Imagine the smell. Lmao.
Yummm curry! XD
I'd rather have the smell of curry than McDonald's.
@@xavichuvy9047 Lol. There’s no fast food in a Sub.
Underwater Samosa