What NO ONE Talks About in the Bike Industry
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
- We get tips on how to start a bike company from Jeff Frane of Wilde Bikes.
www.wildebikes.com/
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Over the years as i knew this train wreck was coming i started sourcing vintage bikes and parts as much as i could and i am sitting on a huge pile that will easily outlast my needs, i am set for life, what the industry doesn't seem to understand is that most people just want functional ease of going bikes, the industry seems to be obsessed with bikes hardly anyone actually want and needs. I started a little shop in my garage where i distribute bikes and parts for older more traditional upright bikes and the amount of interest I've received is staggering, most people just want a good upright bike with a rack and some fenders and lights, maybe a pannier, a bike that's easy to service, reliable and simple, not eagle cassettes worth several hundred euros.
This.
No, that’s not “most people” lol.
“Most people”, which actually refers to the bulk of riders you see when riding, want their carbon di2 bikes which they only ride on weekends.
On bike rides, I rarely see bikes that weren’t from during/after the bike rides. And why not? When almost everyone is also wearing jerseys from PNS, assos, maap, rapha etc where their clothes alone already cost more than the total cost of most old school bikes.
@@87togabitoyes and no. There was a FAST dude that rode with us a couple of years ago on an old steel bike with down tube shifting. I ride everything from steel frames with rim brakes, to carbon with AXS. Most people want the fancy things, but one of the groups strongest riders hasn’t spent more than $1500 on any of his bikes and he more than keeps up. We might want it, but we don’t need it. I kind of want a Rivendall at some point.
Like “Old Shovel “ on TH-cam. It sucks that the big bike companies want to make proprietary bikes and parts that are not backwards compatible. A good frame or a good set of hubs or crank set should see a long life and stay out of landfills. Just my thoughts
@@87togabito It is most people though. You're talking about the hobbyist cyclist. But most people on bikes are just commuters.
Thanks, Mr. Frane, for speaking well of the Taiwanese bike folk. I worked for a U.S. bike company in the '90s and our bikes were built by Fairly Bike near Taipei. Everything Jeff said about his experiences with Maxway matched my experiences with Fairly. They were friendly and enjoyable to work with. Their frames were excellent (I'm still riding one). They drove a serious business and negotiations could be intense. But once the dealing was done, we all had good times. One visit, some of their craftspeople even took us to the beach and taught us a Chinese card game. Not robots, real craftspeople. Real people. I'm pro Made in USA, but I also agree with Mr. Frane that Taiwanese-made cycles are worthy of high respect, as, of course, are their people.
I think you would be pleased to know that as of a few years ago, they still had workers from when they opened their factory 30+ years ago. Welders with over 30 years experience welding bike frames.
@@ridingincircles Thank you! That *is* good to know!
I have a machining background and I love how he describes it as "Paying for the material that isn't there anymore". So perfect.
I'm taking this from elsewhere..... If you want to make a small fortune from the bicycle industry, it's best if you start with a big fortune.
Pretty much in every industry, it's almost as if the scales are tipped in favour of the haves over the have nots.
I find these inside the business talks really interesting. Thanks for putting this up
I'm lucky and fortunate enough to have a few Wildes. I was familiar with Jeff and his work from his All City years - I still own my canti space horse and Columbus zona Mr Pink. Most recently when deciding what my new project would be for this year, I thought about all the times Jeff reached out to me during the design process and offered his time. I chose to spend my money with him again and purchased a super tramp. I think Jeff designs the best bikes in the industry. I think he creates a great venue and community around his products. I've told him this directly - I'm a true believer in the work he does.
Thanks Alex!
Makes me appreciate how Rivendell continues to build great bikes and the hard work and passion they put into their business
I'll be honest some of the people you have interviewed over the years have just come across as very foolish and naive to me. This guy gave a great interview tho, very knowledgeable, transparent and realistic in his pursuit, with many interesting points touched upon.
Thank you
I really appreciate this conversation and the fact that he called out the jingoism and nationalism that is so present in many critiques of the industry.
It used to be an entry level bike was still pretty competitive, and spending another $1000 would get you something high end that was marginally better. Now the entry fees for a lot of races cost more than an entry level used bike. When the cycling industry targets "mid range" as $4000-5000 bikes that probably have a derailleur that cost more than an entry level bike. There is a pretty big barrier to entry to more serious bikes.
I hear this complaint all the time, but it’s also true that the $600 entry level bike is as good or better than a $1500+ bike from even as recently as ten years ago. In MTB, $600 gets you tapered headsets, hydraulic disc brakes, clutched 1x9 drivetrains, sealed BB, and a reliable shifter. Better performance and simpler maintenance than anything from 2013 and earlier. There are better things out there, and you keep seeing major gains all the way into the range you’re talking about, but the cheap stuff is excellent.
Id rather have the $1500 bike from 10 years ago. It will be less fashionable. The advantages of the $600 bike will be better aluminium aloy, and hydroformed tubes. Otherwise I like my $1000 ish road bike from 10 years ago, and would not trade it for a new $600 bike. As a mechanic I would rather upgrade an older bike. A 20-30 year old bike, your going to see some more advantages with a newer entry level bike in terms of wheel size, suspension, and brakes. But its still a pretty big gap between a new $600 bike and anything considered competitive.
@@emilycs8823good luck serving a fork and shock from 20 years ago. You are insane if you would rather ride an obsolete mtb from 20 years, hell even 10 years ago vs a $800 ( $600 is too low) hardtail from today. You can't alter geometry, the 26 inch wheel size will limit wheel and tire choices, etc. The frames are still measured by seat tube length like a road bike vs reach because there was no dropper post back then do no matter what, your seat will always be too high up. Lack of proper wide tire clearance in the frame because bikes was still engineered with 2x chainring vs 1x, etc. Do I need to keep going?
No cynicism here, honest curiosity: I have not seen a new, decent quality, entry level bicycle for $600. (By "decent" I mean WalMart/Costco-level bikes don't count.) I found a hard tail MTB at an LBS for $750, and it was on sale because nobody wanted that color (the regular price was $1,100). I would like to see that $600 bike you mentioned -- can you post a link? Thanks.
@@maraorem3347 Kona Lava Dome is $612 right now. That is theoretically a "sale" price, but when everyone has their cheap hardtails marked down to about that price, it sure looks like the current market price.
Thanks for this interview! Jeff is super articulate , nuanced, and honest . Very cool to listen to. Great job Russ giving an interesting person the space to talk and express themselves. And thanks Jeff for humanizing welders in Taiwan rather than the strange trope of making every overseas producer sound like sweatshop labor.
I think everything in the cycling industry is tough right now. The people I know (more than one) who run bike shops say they are making more money from coffee and cakes in the store cafe than they are from selling bikes and bike apparel. All the bike stores near me have popular cafes attached.
I guess this video goes to show that a full in-house production (including tubing prep, welding and painting) is the way to go, but the upfront investment is just too high for an individual person. Very interesting to see how hard it actually is to transform or keep developing your own business like Jeff is currently trying to do with his OWN resources. I have great respect for him!
I can vouch for just about everything Jeff has said. We are 14 months in to the GoGrava business venture, and will have bikes at the Philly Bike Expo. I'm taking a different path than the traditional Asian manufacturing route. Which, I think has been much, much harder. However, the key point is that GoGrava is here to help other American (north, south, central) brands sell and help cover that website, marketing, sales, SEO, business, numbers, numbers, etc that Jeff mentioned. The marketing, media, web, etc is freaking exhausting at times.
Russ, I love how you edited this interview down, it is just right.
I've bought like 3 brand new bikes over the years....and I think that the magic of a NEW new bike vs a USED new bike is slim to none. In fact, I've learned that building up a bike, either new or used, is superior to any other option. Building a bike up to your spec is super rewarding and doesn't have to cost huge money.
Fantastic video and conversation Russ and Jeff. The insight is super interesting. Thanks for everything you both do.
excellent video! Really very interesting. Thank you and Jeff for his time. Now I am off to look at his bikes.
Russ, Thank you for this excellent interview. You asked great questions and Jeff was genuine, transparent, and so insightful. Thank you for the fine work you are doing.
This guys is speaking honest business. When you are using your own money from your own bank account, you'll conduct business differently. Definite a very enlightening view of the behind the scenes. Thank you for this fantastic podcast.
This was really interesting insight into how the bike industry works. Kudos for laying it all out and not being shadowy about it. Great content.
Selling cycling caps is a way better idea. I plan to buy two; one for commuting and one for gravel. BTW, when I wear my "Save the Front Derailleur" tee shirt into a bike shop, the sales staff take notice and I get immediate service.
I started a very small company in 2010 importing and manufacturing bicycle grips. I also have a full-time job. The intent was for the bike side gig to just pay for my bike hobby costs. It has barely done that, and I've thought of winding it down a few times. Material and manufacturing costs rise faster than anyone is willing to pay more for a product.
This is such a great video. Thanks to both of you for making it.
Great interview and how generous of Jeff to share his experience and perspective with us. Thanks for sharing!
Really appreciated hearing this conversation. Some really good insights perspectives. Thanks for sharing your experiences
Really great interview. Jeff is so right on so many points - I just wish were the painter making $$$. I helped out at Waterford towards the closing and saw the last Wilde framesets get out the door. I really like the direction Wilde is going and they will probably be my next purchase (as long as I get to paint it!).
Valuable insights, thanks for sharing!
Netflix should do a mini-series and you and Jeff could take a deep dive into the bike industry history to current trends.
Curiosity Stream, instead
I wish more people were as honest and transparent about costs as this dude was.
all the best for Jeff and Wilde Bikes!
Fantastic interview, thanks both
A very informative and well scripted show. Wonderful to hear from a bike guy in the business and learn about All City and Wilde bikes too. The nod to the people who make most bike frames was refreshing. It's not where they're made but how they're made.
I always liked steel frames, and have two,í and hope to get another. Appreciate the tutorial on Taiwan 4130 tubing which will help in my search.
It never ends, buying a bicycle is just the basis for trying to sort out the junk parts from the rest of it, and now trying to sort out the changes in specs that’ve made some of the old parts obsolete tho’ actually haven’t made the bikes better, just more expensive and worse. Everyone seems to have had a hand in this, determining what I’m supposed to want, which isn’t but which is all there is
THIS!!! Never mind just bikes. This is one of the best YT videos I've EVER watched in any genre. Well done both. There is one thing that Jeff said that I'm not so sure of. I would say Wilde *absolutely* adds value during the paint step even if it's jobbed out. The value add is via unique visual design language and branding. ( If a specific visual look was not value-added then clothing brands wouldn't exist... ) You have every right to be marking up a Wilde design paint job (and continuing to develop and protect your design language). Anyway totally I'm sold on Wilde. Love what you are doing here.
This is one of the most interesting video you made. Thanks to you and to Mr. Frane.
Back in my youth I purchased my first stereo component system. I went looking for speaker stands. Everywhere I went they cost a fortune! I finally asked a salesman why so much for what amounted to cheap pressed wood and a vinyl woodgrain covering. He told me, because they can!
Very interesting interview. I love my All City bikes and I hate that they are discontinuing production after this year. However, I will definitely look at Wilde the next time I am looking for a new bike.
In the EU it's market protection: the actual production costs of bikes made in Asia are usually just fraction of the consumer price -> import fees, VAT and taxation are HUGE.
slow clap for my bud and teammate Jeff. yall are doing sweet shit with Wilde.
This is a great interview, super interesting!
Stumbled across this video through the youtube gods.... This was an extremely insightful interview and behind the scenes look at bicycle manufacturing and it's realities... I was not aware of wilde bicycles but will definitely be looking at this company in the future based on the passion displayed in this vid... Kudos to all involved in bringing this vid to us..
I wish Jeff the best!
There is a new vacuum in the "fender and mudflap" segment of the market, with RainyDayBiking closing up shop.
I wonder how much it would cost for some sort of die cutter and a few different "common" sizes for that...
If you buy a frameset from a bicycle store, I think the margin for the shop should also come from consultation and selling some of the fitting components and accessories, as well as some core assembly steps like fitting the headset, cutting the steerer tube, setting up fenders. Most people buying a frameset probably just care about selecting wheels and groupset parts themselves.
I'm close to buying a frameset and it's almost impossible to select stuff like fenders and racks (especially front Randonneur racks) just based on specifications. I'll definitely have to seek help from the shop to buy/select some of those parts, and to get the headset mounted.
Excellent interview. Not only because Jeff is a very articulate & thoughtful guest but also because You asked short (like Larry King) open ended questions. TOO many interviewers including professionals in the media like to hear themselves & are terrible at formulating simple short questions (they like to inject their own opinion inside some long winded mess). Always thought why book a guest (not to mention all the related time & $$ ie; Satellite link, etc) and the Guest is given a small % of the time to talk about the topic at hand.
Well Done👍
I really appreciate high quality brands like all city and Wilde offer the quality of a handmade bike, but actually through production so it's in that perfect midrange of something you can eventually afford and itll be truly worth every penny
I believe any smaller (non big 4 or 6) brand offers the same- a tailored product with top quality and much more reasonable prices.
I run a bike company (Habanero Bike) in kind of the same market, part of the Philly Bike scene.
We've been in business for almost 3 decades with a no hype approach and a focus on insane service (like us) you survive, but you gotta hustle hard.
Hot take: In trying to survive in this economy, I think the bike world needs a solid reassessment/reckoning of one of their most derided targets. As someone who got into bikes due to the pandemic, I'm happy to have (re)discovered the diversity of options available to consumers who don't feel like plunking down a rent payment for an over-specialized (pun intended) road bike built to UCI limits, or an enduro shred monster for Whistler's A-line. Steel frames, quill stems, friction shifting, rim brakes, fatter/plusher tires abounding for those who don't need Di2 or top end SRAM. It's great to see.
You know what is ALSO made of steel, has rim brakes, quill stems, "classic" geo, and occasional friction shifting? Your sub $200 department store "bike shaped object," assembled by a frazzled teenager who was made to watch an online training video for 30 minutes and just got ordered to throw out 20 models on the floor before the day is out.
There's a missing middle that I think is sorely undertargeted by the bike industry. The bike shaped object, but _better._ The Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla that gets people into the wider world of biking, yet is a perfectly serviceable and fun ride even if that's as far as they want to go.
Sounds like you're describing a great used bike.
This was Surly
@@michaelviglianco6121 still is.
@@bicyclevlog3673 IMO this is the second part of the issue, which itself presents its own conundrum - if you can get a great deal on a used bike, 1) then why should a consumer bother buying new? And 2) you're not gonna have the confidence to pull the trigger on a used bike unless it's at _least_ the second or third bike you've bought. Both of these are natural hurdles in the bike market for the avg consumer that make for formidable opponents for all bike shops
@@BirdmanDeuce26 I've seen a couple of direct order bikes cheap recently. One was Poseidon and the other is Royce Union. I've wondered if they are a notch or two above the Big Box bikes. At east the comments from the people who order them seem positive. (if real?)
An idea for a new bike company
A steel frame endurance/gravel geometry maybe a bit progressive with a steeper head tube. Higher stack shorter reach, stable ride - the market is everyone but especially people over 35. Good tubes and welded, maybe two models one welded and a second braised generic lugs to keep cost down. Frame has all the attachment points. My VO Neutrino has 16 points. Space for fenders. Wheel spacing for 700c or maybe 650b but with way tire size up to 2.5 inches. Many colours offered. No carbon. It doesn’t last.
Components - the best of the best mechanical drivetrain from early 90s “peak mechanical”. No black components only silver. Ideally Shimano would do this but there are new Chinese brands that can do it well. Mech disc brakes done properly like Paul. Velo Orange and other companies I can think of know the score. Customer has options.
Wheels and hubs, good Chinese brands, just a really well built bombproof quality wheelset.
This is a “last bike” nothing proprietary and weird, not a weight weenie, simple beautiful silver “homage” components, ride anywhere, commute, tour, off road or just long party pace rides with friends. Comfortable but can perform if asked. It’s a bike you can fall in love with, make your own. I’d buy this bike.
Give me a bike that's built on a sturdy steel frame with components that are serviceable, such as open bottom brackets headsets etc like it used to be, i'm done with these shitty cartridge bearings, i have bikes from the 1930s and on that spite heavy use have smoother bearings that a brand new bike, out with the cafe standards, until then i'll continue to ride my old steel, it's that simple, the bike went with the automotive industry chasing bullshit instead of keeping it grounded and real.
"Endurance bikes" offered a higher stack ten years ago. It made sense for nearly every rider.
@@HansensUniverseT-A I learned to service hub bearings because I had a Shimano hub from 1987 that I didn’t want to part with. I have no idea how many km are on these things but the bike has been used consistently for over 3 decades. There’s something very satisfying cleaning the gunk out of a hub and putting in new ball bearings and grease and having the wheel spin forever afterward.
@@charlesblithfield6182 I don't want bikes with cartridge bearings, all of my bikes uses nothing but cup and cone, that includes bottom brackets and headsets, when lubed and well adjusted it will last you a long long time, depending on the model and make you can even machine and polish the bearing races, i have done this on bikes from the 30s and up, with excellent results, Shimano not so much since due to the surface treatment, love the versatility and longevity of cup and cones. Bearings on bikes today are pretty much throwaways every season or so.
Looks like a modern vintage build. You can have it built with these specifics, wouldn't be overly expensive
Much of the hype last year was about crank arm length being fitted to the riders inseam. That most crank arms are too long, right. In parallel with frame building and tube selection. Most frames are over built with “risk management” and warranty replacement in mind. Just my 2 cents and why I feel getting a custom frame and working with a builder that can get detailed insight about you and everything that personalizes that frame and bike to you is super valuable and worth it. Also better on the environment if domestically made and not mass production made in other countries.
Had family in town in Rochester (out from the mitten) and the number 1 on the todo was Angry Catfish to see Wilde bikes and number 2 eat a juicy lucy. Love what Jeff and the crew are putting out there.
Russ your image quality is looking very good.
Somewhere along the way the bicycle went from being a utilitarian object to a luxury item, or even worse, a Veblen good, which is terribly unfortunate.
As much about the dynamics of global industry as it is bikes. Excellent interview. I have a 80-90s mountain bike frame that apparently was a 200-300 steel tubing run that has no history and found one other example on the web. No name and no history? Hippy dippy paint job and red wolf head badge. I bet it has a story about starting up in the bike industry.
Very interesting! I'm totally off message here but I have a 13 year old daughter who is supposed to be learning how to summarize text and listing the main points. This interview is ideal material because it is quite long and there is no listed structure (no chapters). It is a big challenge to summarize it & one that she will certainly not attempt😀. I like these thought provoking videos. I'm smiling at the thought of my daughter's grade 7 teacher using it as a "Summarizing" assignment.
I'm shocked by the cost of wet painting and powder coating in the USA. I'm living in Italy and my local powder coater charged me 150 € for sanding and powder coating a steel frameset last summer.
Thanks for the "ISO 4210" keyward. I'm building a bike for my own use and it's been impossible to find typical loads to design for.
such a great talk! makes me appreciate local brands like truelovecycles (Poland/Warsaw steel bikes) even more!!!
I love to buy merch, but is it now shipped from Spain? as I`m in Europe that would help a lot!
Interesting bit about how manufacturer discounts devaluates stock on sales floors. I remember when new Lynskey frames were being sold close to half price on the Lynskey eBay account while my local bike shop was stuck selling them full priced. They were pissed and didn't stock Lynskey for much longer.
One can argue that the USA basically offshored its prosperity to Taiwan (and Asia in general). As mentioned, Taiwan now has longer life expectancy than the US. They also happen to have a FAR better medical care system. Better mass transit, and a lot of other things. Ironically, when Taiwan reached "first world" status in the 90's, they realized, "Hey, we need to update our medical care system." So they went about doing just that. They looked at all the systems around the world and found the US system as an excellent example... OF HOW TO NOT DELIVER HEALTH CARE IN SOCIETY!
In other words, ours was seen as the worst of all options.
So while their star is rising, ours is rusting. The failure of globalism and Reaganomics.
So true and so sad about America. So glad I left 7 years ago and will probably never move back. The food quality and treatment of cyclists on roads is so much better elsewhere.
@@SurpriseMeJT I've spent a summer commuting in Europe and have ridden in The Netherlands. However, returning two years ago opened my eyes even more about the Dutch. Wow, cycling nirvana!
Can't fault you for making the sane & rational choice.
Nailed it with Reaganomics. The USA is the outlier of developed countries in health care, firearms, and the love of cars/suburbs.
This interview really makes my want to buy a bike from Jeff. Those Ti frames look AMAZING. I might need to sell my car 🤣
I read a stinging criticism of Brompton the other day about their direction of travel since the inventor/owner handed over some years ago. However, listening to this interview, it sounds like Brompton have done it right. They do more and more production, painting etc in house and their expansion has been slow and self-funded. They also now do some direct sales of complete bicycles instead of only selling through dealers. And they do a lot of upselling of merchandise which I imagine is quick and improves ‘cash flow’. Perhaps this slow-but-sure route to expansion is the business model that other bike companies need to follow?
Very interesting. Great video. Thanks guys.
This was a good episode. Even if you are not really a bike person, the business stuff was kind of fascinating. As I listened to him elucidate on his business, I had this thought. He used to buy frames from Waterford. Waterford held the rights to the old Schwinn Paramount name. Paramount is still a strong name after many years. Maybe Mr. Frane could make a deal with Richard Schwinn to pick up the use of the name and build a "classic" style bike under that name. It could be Chrome Moly double butted steel. It could even be a brazed lugged frame. I bet there would be interest in a "Paramount Too."
I believe that Schwinn owns the name for Paramount, not Waterford.
@@bikejerks And Some Dutch company named Pon Holdings owns Schwinn and they are Big Box. So we'll never see another Paramount,........oh well.
Wasn't Waterford started by former Schwinn employees? Boutique steel bikes are awesome, but what if Schwinn had stayed the course with manufacturing and just kept making simple, classic steel frames all these years? Of course for this to work in the alternative universe, the industry would have had to decide on and stick with, BB, headset, hub spacing and frickin' seatpost standards: when pigs fly, I guess, lol!
@@davetbassbos Internet says:
"Founded in 1993, Waterford took over Schwinn Bicycle Company's Paramount Design Group research and production facility. Founded by Richard Schwinn and Marc Muller, Waterford built on the Paramount history of excellence and performance and has established its own reputation the custom bicycle world."
There does seem to be a strong niche demand out there for basic bikes that take few proprietary components, can be repaired and have great longevity. But,.....I am not in the bike business.
I just want a retro bike, not because of any aesthetic reason but because they‘re just great to ride. When you have no suspension, your frame is your suspension so the material you use is extremely important. Steel acts as a far better spring than aluminum, so you can have narrower tires. A steel tube frame on narrow tires handles and rides better than any fancy almunium/CF frame I‘ve ever ridden. The best I‘ve ever ridden was an old French titanium frame. Also purely mechanical down tube shifters and rim brakes. Absolutely immortal technology that‘s super easy to maintain and service, but it gets the job done. To me a bicycle is a purely functional utilitarian object. It needs to be cheap, it needs to be easy to maintain and fix and it needs to be durable.
You get my like for bringing Jeff on
Take a risk. Find a niche. I recommend ebike. The market is ripe for changes in cycling expectations. Look into cargo bikes that function as regular bikes. The Larry vs Harry Bullitt is a perfect example of what seems like a simple bike that could have price reduction. Most people in the USA will want to see areas in which they can save time by combining exercise and saving money. Cargo bikes are the start of the answer. The governments are fining energy expenditure, and electronics are getting cheaper. Why not combine the 2 for profit? Quality cargo bikes can be a niche AND political changer to instigate more bike lanes, etc. We need more efficient electric modes of transportation that don't look like the expensive Tesla options! Good luck. Loved the interview.
Thanks!
Hi Russ! Could you do a comparison between the Redshift Pro and EEsilk+ seatpost please?
The old joke in the industry is "How do you make a million dollars in the bike business?" Start with 2 million. Good luck Jeff.
People want to hate on “big bike” like Trek, but I’ve had a Trek road bike for over 10 years and that thing has had almost no issues. I bought another bike from a small brand and that thing has given me many more issues and requires much more maintenance. And this was before COVID.
my very first bike was a used and abused Trek, I pounded on that thing for 3 more years until I could afford a nicer bike, so I'll always have a soft spot for entry level bikes by mass producers.
I was going to buy a Bontrager...
Then I was going to buy a Klein...
Then I was going to buy a Fisher...
Then I was going to buy a Lemond...
... Thanks Trek!
Me too...I don't think brands like Trek, Haro, Mongoose,etc... should be thrown under the bus. My first bike as an adult was a Haro from Sun and Ski Sports. It got me to fall in love with biking. Then I bought a Trek road bike about 5 months later. I rode both of those on rides I never imagined I would ever do. Yes, they are likely all made at the same factories in China, but the prices are more approachable. For the most part, the frames are all solid anyway, it just comes down to the parts attached to it. If I had walked into a LBS and only saw bikes for $2500, I would never had got into cycling in the first place. The small builder bikes offer me a marginally better experience based on my Trek versus my new bike.@@xrstopherpopp120
Only ever had a used Trek, and it was fine. I have several bikes over 10 years old, including a mountain bike, from much smaller brands without any issues. You either got unlucky with the company or the particular bike.
Fascinating discussion on a subject I realise I now know a tiny amount. The complexity of the market is boggling.
ps: you look indecently tanned and healthy.
Enjoyed the interview. to me the biggest challenge is to differentiate between your offering and the competition. If you're just buying surplus production from Giant or Merida and slapping your logo on it - why would a customer paying $10K or more want that ?
Great. as always
The comment sections on videos like this always hurt my head. People without an inkling about what it takes and costs to bring a product to market and actually make a living doing so saying what something should cost.
You're looking good Russ. Getting a lot more riding in or something in Spain?
With Kona, Canyon and Poseidon true axle/tubeless/10-51t bikes hitting as low as $700 or lower these day on sale I only see bottom barrel or high end bike new manufacturers surviving.
So ...... Frane makes frames; seems like a natural !!!
I bought a hybrid bike ~5 yrs ago to get some exercise in the local area-- no racing, group rides, etc. I spent ~$600 with accessories at a local bike store and felt I was probably overpaying but had a solid backup if I needed help. If I went to get an intro bike now I would be repulsed by the $2K prices and would end up at REI or maybe Walmart if I got anything. I can't see the next generation of riders affording a decent bike. Has the industry chased hi-tech racing wonders and forgotten the majority of their customers needs?
You probably need to be on line sales. Unique hand-crafted and unusual things for biking. If Shimano makes it, maybe you shouldn't?
One of the inefficiencies of the bicycle industry is long supply lines. Any time a bicycle or component crosses international borders, with the exception of the European Union, usually ìnvolves paying tariffs which add no value whatsoever to the product. Shortening supply lines cutss costs.
The ideal geometry should change every year.
Given the increase in manufacturing costs even before the pandemic, the Rambler complete is a bargain. It is specced with name-brand components that match the frame in quality. The vast majority of complete bikes hit lower price points by using their own no-frills generic parts and garbage wheelsets, and the vast majority of riders never experience a bike above that level so they don’t know what they don’t know. There is no need to upgrade the Rambler for years, so it’s a great value. As good as it is, the bike is not what will hold you back. And as versatile as it is, it could change your life.
Instead of buying entry level current tech,buy old top of the line tech,works for everything
he does geometry, can we ask him to make bikes with shorter top tubes! everything is sooooo damn long.
@PathLessPedaledTV I am considering converting a Alu hard tail trail bike over to a rigid front fork do gravel/paved routes in the SW USA. Not hard core trail. Trying to save some weight by going rigid on the front end. Are there any front fork manuf's , in carbon or Alu, that you could point to ? Thanks with your thoughts.
Mrp
Hi, I run Habanero Bike. If you want a carbon rigid fork, assume you want one to replace an older suspension. We make them, as do Whiskey and Ritchey. If you can name the bike model, glad to show you options.
Canti and disc versions are still made!
Hello Justin, I have a specialized Crave hardtail with a suspension fork and Shimano disc brakes. I want to do a temporary conversion to a rigid fork to do a bit of gravel/road camping in Northern Arizona and Eastern Oregon. I notice your specialty is Ti bikes. Are your forks also Ti ? Regards, Brian
@@justineseiferth8010
@@brianboschma Sorry for the delay in responding, the reply got buried in my email. Yes we do specialise in Ti. Our forks (well some) are Ti, but we also stock Carbon ones (our own and a host of others).
I briefly looked into owning a bike shop, but after I found out how little money I will make, I gave it up pretty quickly
Same here. My potential shops land lord would be just as profitable as me. I’ve stuck with construction, and now just buy myself nice bikes 😂
Love these behind the curtain interviews, they are super exciting. But some of the numbers Jeff mentions had me raised an eyebrow. How do you sell a frame for $1200 when the paint alone cost you $400?
Howdy, this is Jeff. It was sometimes a bit hard to follow with the edited video of us jumping around between Taiwan and domestic frames. The paint job on one of our domestic made frames is between $400-$700. Those frames sell for $2700 and up. The $1200 frames are painted in Taiwan with much lower paint costs associated, though the paint costs are still a very high percentage of the overall manufacturing costs.
@@bikejerks holy crap - upwards of $700 for a wholesale paint job?!? You should be paying a 1/3 of that - if that. Would like to know what the break-down of that job is??
@@hagakuru I'm going to imagine that well executed paint from Waterford, especially in the fade like the first batch of Earthships came in would not be cheap.
@@hagakuru There is no such thing as a "wholesale"paint job domestically. It takes the painter the same materials cost and time to paint a frame, no matter who is paying them to do it. Us or some random rider. The only time price breaks happen is paying for multiples of the same paint job in which there can be some efficiencies in materials and in time spent cleaning the paint guns.
Jeff knows paint. My Big Block is looking great after 11 years of constant city riding. Kudos.
Is All-City still around?
I thought that was Frane´s big dream.
I´ve always loved the Nature Boy, but too hard on my knees mashing 🙁
Nope. Shutting down.
@@PathLessPedaledTV Thanks for the info, but that´s a bit sad.
Keep up the good work, great channel 👍
Was thinking abkut all of this esrlier today. The gact is, the bike industry is still focused on performance, but almost everyone under 50 today did not grow up on a bike. They car pooled or bussed to school. Their closet expisure is BMX which came from the motorcycle world. They MIGHT concede mtb's are good, but expect to be able to best rhem with no more repair hassles than a BMX bike. It drives me nuts, but virtually all my potential customers come in wanting something that looks "cool" or "tough" and not far from a motorcycle. Theybwant to take advantage of segregated MUP's and Lanes (scared of traffic). They don't know squat about bike efficiency and aero. They could not care less about what us undustrybinsiders think is cool. They could thougg be convinced of the quality and comfort of a practical bike, at a reasonable price.
There are too many people selling the same thing, with the only difference being the branding. Lets create another gravel adventure bike
One of the main reasons the industry is tough is because lots of people want to be in the bike industry.
Well, I can buy a new bike frame in my country with the equivalent of less than 100 usd meanwhile the cheapest trek goes for about 3k usd.
If these brands can't turn in a profit on cheaper bikes, maybe they should work with these smaller domestic brands. Yes, the 100 usd frame isn't the most impressive thing in the world but it is good enough for a beginner looking for a entry level bike like me.
I wish that I had gone to business school.
Taiwan does build great bikes and have for some time. Maybe multiple cycle companies could band together to place an order to get the discounted prices ?????
Half way through the video. Hope I didn't jump the gun.
I think the batch size is per model + size, not total number of frames.
Maybe - if they banded together they could get the cash for the carbon frame molds he spoke of.
I do the same sort of thing for a few decades (habanero Bike). The moq (minimums) are per exact geometry so all those bikes would have to be identical:(
We do mostly full custom at stock prices - everything bespoke but still sell under 4k (titanium). It can be done (as we show, been in business for almost 3 years), but you have to hustle like a mofo- it's that hustle that I love/thrive in
@@daniellarson3068 that’s basically what catalog frames are. Brands buy a frame out of a catalog. Then they paint and build up a complete, branded bike. This results in a few brands having the exact same frame. Sometimes they get exclusive rights in a region. Travel to a different continent and you’ll see the frame as a different brand.
@@dfiler2 I tell you - If I ever travel to a different continent, there will be so much to see that bike frames will not be on my mind. There are camels, kangaroos and elephants to see. Maybe, I could see the Taj Mahal, the Eiffel tower or Machu Picchu. I certainly do believe you.
Radenso Radar Detector would have been wise to have followed the advice at the 24:30 minute mark.
Sounds like the experience of almost any small business with a non-trivial product.
I really appreciate anyone who has the initiative to start a new business but i have to ask what is their motive in the 1st place/ ? unless they come up with something so new, unique or innovative no one else has or to satisfy a market , making money while doing what makes you happy is the only explanation . Wish Wilde and others good luck but there are so so so many other small names doing the same
100% they are overpriced. And that’s not necessarily saying they are marking them up too much. But bike companies need to completely rethink how they manufacture their bikes and run their business. I can’t believe my bike is the same price as the most expensive Mx race bike from ktm. That’s just ridiculous!
I wonder if Jeff is talking about a certain Brad of Speedvagen/Seven/Geekhouse fame....
Brad from Capricorn