Does 'Shimming' The Neck Ruin A Guitar...? (Cardboard &
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ส.ค. 2024
- This is about as nerdy as things get around here....so even by my standards, this is a geeky one :P
My Fender Telecaster has long had a problem with notes choking out higher up the neck, which - for full disclosure - I solved using a cardboard shim many years ago, as the only other option was to have the action jacked up unplayably high. But I've read a lot of things on forums over the years about the dangers of using shims...and, most importantly, people repeatedly say that shimming a neck destroys the fundamental tone of the instrument.
But......does it? Today we'll be finding out - by comparing the un-shimmed guitar sound to both a cardboard shim and a professional wooden shim from StewMac. Is the proper one worth the extra money, or can you get away with a bit of chopped up Cornflake packet?
What do you think? Aside from solving my note-choke problem, did the shims make a tonal difference? Which did you prefer? Comment below!
Guitar recorded through a Dr Z Z-Wreck (Celestion AlNiCo Gold; Aston Spirit Condenser, '70s Sennheiser MD441 and sE RNR1 ribbon) with a Schoeps CMC6 room mic.
0:00 Intro
4:56 The StewMac Shim
6:26 Playing Comparison
8:46 Outro
joeperkinsmusic
jp@joeperkins.co.uk
Vector images by freepik.com - เพลง
In my experience: The best guitar is the one you want to pickup and play. If not being able to bend those notes makes you not play it, always shim!
100%! Playability much more important than a _slight_ difference in tone.
Exactly!
I have a cheap Ibanez GIO from 2004 that I bought as my first guitar. I have molded so much that is is unrecognizable, that includes stainless steel frets along a leveling job and let me tell you, that guitar is my favorite 25.5 scale guitar in my arsenal and comes from someone who also owns a Fender American Strat. Facts are facts. Playability>price, brand, model.
LOL! I love unintentional demonstrations of the placebo effect.
Did you notice the rye little grin on his face through out the video? I would be at all surprised if he played all of those demos before he did any shimming #@*%
@@78tag Exactly, or adjusting the EQ on the amp, some pedal or the treble roll off control on the guitar.
@@SDRockman I'm not saying for sure that he is fudging this video but the internet is a lot like the government - you can't believe anything they say without confirming it first.
@@78tag But the guitar is playable after shimming, whereas it wasn't before. That was the point of this video.
@@JoePerkinsMusic ...but you were also discussing whether or not shimming changes the tone. You were able to "make the guitar playable" (I believe you) but if you wanted to make this video believable you should have left it there.
in the Philippine we just put a thin acoustic guitar pick on the neck pocket as a shim and we also twerk the neck screws until it pops a bit before screwing it properly, we called it chiropractic neck relief technique.
I've always used either plastic like and old credit card or thin metal shims. I've been playing guitar for 40 years and have yet to ever see or have a hump in a neck or any negative issues with not using wooden shims . A hard maple neck isn't going to distort from a thin shim no matter what it's made of . My experience my opinion of course . Thanks for the video I enjoyed it.
A lot of the things people worry about don’t matter. I’ve had old guitars that had neck shims and I never even knew until I removed the neck. I have one guitar with a shim under the nut. Can’t tell. I’ve had guitars where I didn’t bother re-glueing the nut after doing some work. No noticeable difference in tone from when they were glued (remember; a lot of old arch tops just have floating bridges, only held down in place by the tension of the strings on it - and they sound fine). This is why, other than for aesthetic appeal, I prefer bolt on neck to set necks or neck thru guitars. Being able to easily swap out a damaged neck far outweighs any minuscule sustain differences a set neck supposedly gives.
Original Jazzmasters and Jags came with factory shims, and Leo recognized the necessity of changing the neck angle.( Because of the floating bridge design.)Occasionally, other models require them as well, and long before Stew Mac sold expensive wood shims, luthiers used whatever.Anything that is somewhat malleable will work,- business cards work great.Any slight change this might represent is either psychological, or inconsequential.
Speaking of fingerboard fall off, it's become very common to simply make frets 11- 22 a bit lower, preferably slightly more so as you move up the board; you usually don't need to grade the fingerboard, only the frets.I've been doing this on new necks when I must level and crown them.
Definitely seemed to move the envelope of the note and the mids to a slightly different place. As others have said, it could be the tightness of the neck screws too. But amazing that such small things all contribute to small differences between different guitars. This is why the more guitars I play, the more I’m convinced specs are irrelevant: some guitars with ‘rubbish’ specs just have the magic, and others with great specs don’t. Very little rhyme or reason to it, but for some guitars its just seems all these tiny idiosyncrasies line up and make an instrument with a lot of sympathetic vibration and harmonics that is a joy to play.
Glad I found your channel. Love it 👊😎
Just the advice I was looking for. Thank you! :)
Woooow I didn't expect such a big difference, unbelievable. I heard exactly the same as you did, excellent 👌
🐈
As a wood worker in many different climates, I can say with confidence that little gap won't induce moisture swelling from humidity swings. Maybe if the guitar took a few swims..
Nearly every offset I have and I've got a few has a Stew Mac shim. Just seems to be a prerequisite. I'll take playability over what little you might lose in so called tone.
Very informative video. Have built several teles and a couple strats. Have used stew-mac shims on all of them. Yes they are over priced, as with everything stew-mac sells, but in the case of their shims well worth the money.
this really help!my fender vintage 62 jazzmaster chocking out on the 14th fret with the original shim.i will try to low down a little bit the neck angle
Definitely on board with the Stew Mac shimming method. Makes the most sense from a design and sonic perspective, but damn are they expensive!
But if you're going to do it, and one has money invested in a guitar, I say don't go half assed, do it right and be done with it.
I've got a set, along with some "similar" design plastic (of some sort) shims. Work(s) in progress. Amateur luthier here trying to figure things out.
My issue with one Strat seems to be the nut being too low. Don't often hear that. Have a couple bone nuts coming, and this should be interesting!
Great video
Oh God, when i hear those kind of problems with guitars i want to sell everything, buy a MIDI keyboard and a few software and just play with those. But anyway.....
The cardboard shim sounded a bit "muffled" and with less high end content. The StewMac wood shim was great, even better than how the guitar sounded originally. I wonder how the guitar would sound with a metallic shim
hahha yeah man i just got a set neck gibson and i'm honestly pretty happy, thing sounds incredible
Hey!! So yeah the stew Mack shim sounded a bit brighter i got a jazz bass I need to do this to but I’m not sure how to position the shim in the pocket, close to the neck or more towards the headstock
🤘🏽thanks joe!! Your the best!
If notes are choking out on the upper frets, you’ll need to essentially raise the headstock up - so the shim (/the thicker part of the shim if you’re using a StewMac) will need to be on the headstock end of the neck pocket; not the body end. 👍
Thanks for sharing, Joe. It is very helpful. One question: how high are your E and e strings at 12th freat now ?
The thing with cardboard isn't tonal, in my opinion. The real issue lies in the cardboard compressing over time. What happens is that as the cardboard shim compresses and the neck ends up at a more shallow angle. This is why the StewMac wood shims are actually a bit better. They correct the angle and stay much more substantial for a longer time. More about longevity than anything.
Wood will compress too. Put a C-Clamp on it and tighten it down and remove it and observe the indentation or hit it with a hammer. Chances are the neck will shrink and expand far more from time to time due to environmental factors like humidity and temperature.
@@Vicos You're right but at the same time, they won't compress quite that way because they're the actual size of the neck pocket, and they're hard maple. They spread out the tension evenly so yes, they may eventually need replaced, but not anywhere close to as quickly as paper or cardboard. Using a c-clamp put all the squeezing force in that one spot and forces it to compress in that spot
I can't hear any tone difference.
I'm in need of doing this for the first time. I can hear a clear difference in sustain when you're using the wood. But I always use a compressor anyway so I don't think that sustain will be a problem for me.
Unfortunately the youtube compression, and that my headphones are crap, makes it hard for me to hear if there's any difference in tone.
You rock kind sir!
Before watching this, I was convinced there would be no difference. But I was shocked to hear the difference (though it is subtle, as you said). I wonder if the angle of the strings on the un-shimmed clips made the strings vibrate close to the frets, giving that extra zing? All the clips still sounded great.
The action was kept exactly the same - so the strings weren't fouling on the frets or anything :-)
The issue with this sort of comparison, where you are detaching and reattaching the neck with the neck being being held in place by screws into wood, is that just by unscrewing and rescrewing the neck you change the contact and coupling between neck heel and body which means that the differences there are could just as easily be down to the neck not being attached as tightly as before and not because of the shim per se.
And everytime you unscrew and rescrew the screw holes change somewhat, to the point that if you do it often enough they will strip.
I won't take it off any more then :P
@@JoePerkinsMusic Monty’s sell threaded inserts and bolts with which you can make a “bolt-on neck” actually bolt on. I haven’t used the Monty’s ones but have done this mod to a number of guitars and asides from the practicality of it, I think it might change the sound a bit, though it’s hard to quantify or A/B with any certainty. Though one thing it does allow you to do is to hear the effect that changing the coupling between the body and neck has on the sound (loosen the bolts a quarter turn) and it definitely impacts sustain/loudness. Maybe reach out to Matt at Monty’s and see what he has to say about the mod.
@@colmkelly5524 I'll mention it next time I chat to him :-)
I mostly heard what you did, unfortunately youtube compression destroys the top end, but I did hear a difference in how the lows and mids seemed to pop out more with either shim, and sounded best with the stew mac one.
I’ve just this week had to do a fret job and shim on a Squier affinity strat. The problem was severe- buzz at the nut and high end that couldn’t be adjusted out. Raising the action pitched the nites out of tune where the relief was in the center of the neck. I’m not a pro but I’ve been doing my own work a while now and on an affinity it’s not like I’m going to ruin an expensive guitar. Anyway I used cardboard and after I did the frets it solved the problem. Can’t say I noticed a tonal difference but I am concerned the cardboard will compress eventuallyso I’ll be getting some wooden shims soon to make it more permanent.
Good show it was interesting I like the way it sounded without any SIM but definitely the stew Mac was better than the cardboard you could hear like you say a little bit of more of a muffled sound
No shim was best as you said, and second the stew mac. Would not use cardboard. But the most popular shims over the years I have found in old guitars and basses were guitar picks, which I cannot see sounding as good as no shim, being they are made of some sort of plastic, but better than cardboard.
The Stew Mac shim sounds best of the three samples. Clearer highs and more sustain.
Well the sample without a shim sounds best
generally I agree, the stombox clips really show the differences in resonance that piece of cardboard made alot more difference that i would have thought glad i forked over the $50 for a set of shims buy once cry once theres alot to be said for full resonance and access to the widdly notes.
I like it great video congratulations
I wonder if those tonal differences come because different neck angle gives you different angle between strings and pickup
100% If you're not chasing the pickup height, there's zero comparison.
AWESOME channel... great video.... I took all my paper shims out last year... the guitars are all bolt on necks...now have no shim....I got a staytrem bridge for a jazzmaster and took out the shim when replacing the bridge. I noticed right away the difference without the paper shims. I think the one thing you didnt mention, I could be wrong... most dont realize it takes a while to get a neck right. And higher action does give off more vibration thus more tone. I'm assuming you used the 5 degree shim? How did you come up with 5?
I lowered the saddles after installing the shim to keep the action exactly the same 👍 To be honest, I just bought the gauge of shim that was in stock in a shop here in the UK (the rest weren't) and it happened to work perfectly - so it was a bit of a guess on my part!!
thanks...then all you need to do is start at 5
I'd agree with your assessment and I do like the sound of the guitar with the StewMac shim. It is a tad pricey, which I find often for many StewMac products. It is an investment that does 'fix the problem'; and a good investment is well worth the expense, perhaps.
Definitely sounds better with the Stew Mac shim but with all things Stew Mac you pay a high price!! You could make your own shim like theirs with a piece of veneer!!
Good demo but those tonal difference could be explained by a lot of different variables. Slight difference in picking hand position, how tight the guitar is pressed against your belly, how your arm is resting on the body etc.
I think cardboard lost some more top end. The wood shim seemed good to me.
I slight difference but you’d have to be listening for it , at least it’s playable with the shim , without it’s not , so there’s your answer, I’m currently doing the same with my telecaster, so fingers crossed it works,
Strictly geometrically, how would shimming be different than raising/lowering saddles?
Shimming comes into the picture when the saddles would be extremely high or low otherwise, but if saddle height didn't solve the problem (without creating a saddle height problem), how would shimming solve the problem?
Great video Joe. I think the most important thing is to not leave any air pocket. Any gap under there is surely going to result in some loss of tone and sustain. Crimson Guitars made an excellent video showing how to make your own neck shim.
Hello from Chicago. I built my own partscaster Tele. Same downward issue. I was thinking shimming because the saddles adjustment was way too high in comparison.
try longer saddle screws to add height needed...most any hardware store bins will have them
New neck problem solved
I did hear the difference. More volume and more body in the shimmed versions, with the cardboard variant sounding darker. But… I assume that after installing the shims you had to compensate the string action, bringing the strings closer to the board and pups again, right? So maybe we’re hearing mostly those differences. Anyway, I’ll take the stewmac version any day. ;)
The difference in action the shim created was so negligible I couldn't even see it using a ruler measuring the string heights over the pickups! So I just left it the same....it might have made a 0.01mm difference, but nothing that could have been accurately tweaked by an ape like me. :P
I agree that the cardboard shim lost some treble and was muffled. The difference between the wood shim and no shim was very subtle
It is hard to tell is the sound difference is only because of the shim material. I noticed that neck angle have some influence on tone. Neck with slight angle sounds a bit brighter, and necks without shim and not angled enough sounds a bit muffled.
I used a strip of sand paper cant tell the differance,But worked good ,my angle is better and action is lower from 12 all the up the neck.Only used it on back screws,action is now 1 mm with no bend buzzing any where.
I swear by Stewmac shims!!!!!
Fellow southpaw as well!
I actually heard a difference in the cardboard vs the others. I am actually surprised I heard any difference. It isn't a lot, but I do hear a difference.
Adding a shim just made more space between frets and ringing strings as it will make if you loosen trussrode which eliminated the ringing of the strings on the first frets. That's all the difference in the tone
Truss rod controls relief in the neck; shimming adjusts the neck angle. Very different things.
I don't see how shimming will get rid of the choking out on the higher frets beside just raising the string action, and that’s done with the saddle screws. You change the neck angle only if the action of the saddle screws are on its limits, or if you want the strings closer or further away from the body.
Otherwise the proper solution is to dress the upper frets with a fall-off. From the 13-th to the very last fret at a slight angle lower in comparison to the rest of the frets.
Also if some might have a sound difference to better after shimming with a wooden shim, the screws might not have clearance in the body holes. If the screws bite in the body wood, it’s not possible to tighten the neck onto the body. It’s mechanically impossible! Make sure the screws slip freely in the body holes.
Cheers
The shim is angled, so it changes the pitch of the neck rather than just packing it out uniformly - creates a similar fallaway to a fret dress with much less intrusive work!
@@JoePerkinsMusic
But it doesn’t get rid of the higher frets beyond the 13. fret, wich is caused by the slight bow of the neck due to neck relief…
It doesn't - but by 'raising up' the lower frets by adjusting the angle of the neck, the effect is similar.
@@JoePerkinsMusic To be honest, I still don't see how this is the case. Try drawing a diagram on a piece of paper to visualize what's going on. As far as the relationship between the strings and the frets go, adjusting the angle of the neck is 100% equivalent to adjusting the action at the bridge. In fact, by adjusting the saddle height you are in fact changing the angle between the neck and the strings. The only possible difference is ergonomic - different angle between the neck and the body may feel slightly different for your left hand assuming the guitar's position on your right leg is the same. But as far as chocking out / buzzing - there's absolutely no difference between shimming the neck and raising the saddles (obviously assuming there's enough room for adjustment).
You're totally correct. You only shim a neck if you run out of adjustment at the saddles in the bridge.
No Shim at all has the natural Telecaster sparkle, that's how the high frequencies in a Telecaster sound. With the cardboard shim the sound is completely muffled no sparkle or life. With the Stew Mac complete pocket shim the sound is not as muffled but the sparkle (treble and harmonic) are still a bit dimmed compared to no shim at all. So for the 3 options having No Shim still sounds the Best to me, it's the natural sound of the guitar and both shims will impact and change that sound
There’s no difference. Just use a free shim .. paper
business card works
I've upgraded the hell out of my Affinity Tele banging my head against the wall. Come to find out GC charged me for a setup and installed a nut but the guitar needs a shim. Two guitar techs ignored me when I tried to tell them it needed a shim. If the saddles are floating and you still can't get the strings low enough that's a sign. Small piece of a buis.. Card made a huge diff. But now nut is cut too low. Now nut needs a shim.
I hardtailed my strat with a piece of mahogany and had this issue with the new bridge, being lower than the former tremolo. My tech put in a veneer to adjust the neck angle. From all of those changes I recommend the mahogany tone block, if u will. Such a nice tone change to an alder body. I just got a CRL 5 way switch based on your video. Made the guitar brighter. Here's something I found, based on hifi amplifiers, if u solder with silver added solder, the sound improves aka more signal goes through. But the biggest diff was made when using a Fender CTS brass shaft pot...the volume increased by 40%. I have now to dial the volume back to 7 to get the same tone as with an aluminium CTS pot
Cheer up guys. In the 50's Fender guitars were made by dedicated well meaning workers but they were hardly luthiers so it was not unusual have to shim necks a few necks. There are hundreds of 50's collectors Fenders with a factory shim original to the guitar. These guitars sound great.
Not as good with no shim tho, or a wood one. A shim on a vintage classic is standing in the way of it being even better and what it was intended to sound like
If you can play it, and the tone is good thats all I care. People complain things mess up their tone too much. Just play lol
Hello, whats radius is this guitar?
Unless it's a controlled looper doing the same music at different settings, I just dont see how this can be taken as a controlled experiment. Anything you feel is probably a result of playability. Leo had business cards as shims, but the 60's Strats all sound great. Unless it's a structural issue, one really focus on good playability and contact for body resonance (even then, resonance is debatable - every last ounce I suppose). Bolt on guitars are going to depend so much on playability and setups. Your bridge angle, bridge material, frets, nuts... etc are going to be far more important as they directly affect the sound. These are all peripheral "improvements" that are minor at best and placebo most of the time.
I would rather try adjusting the truss rod by loosening it. for me, if it's an issue of the action being different heights, always truss first.
Adjusting the truss will only adjust the bow in the middle part of the neck though - it won't really make any difference to the notes choking out over the top of the neck pocket.
I really wanted to like the stew-mac but the cardboard sounded the better to me. but I'm always trying to roll off the high end so....
Yep, it all depends what you're wanting to achieve - I'm always wanting _more_ clarity out of my guitars, so the StewMac worked for me!
Thanks
This baffles me. It already has a shim so this is actually making it bridge across 2 shims. I would have removed the original shim first to achieve the same result (unless it lowered the bridge saddles too much in which case I would use the full shim because the pocket is routed too deep) But I wouldn't use 2 shims like this😵💫 Leaving that original shim in there defeats the purpose of using a full wedge shim.
The original shim was removed before the StewMac shim was installed.
Interesting...I guess this video pretty much kills the Fender micro tilt which pretty much raises the bottom of the neck leaving a tiny air gap. I'm sure StewMac folks are happy
How does adding a shim differs from simply heightening the action from the bridge?
The shim is angled (like a wedge of cheese) so it changes the pitch angle of the neck - not just the overall height.
I just took apart a cheap set of feeler gauges for shims. I think I paid $1.00 each at a swap meet.
"Extra weight" of the StewMac shim??? you mean tonally right?
Except even then, I doubt it was anything but placebo effect, ALTHOUGH (from many personal experiences) a properly set up guitar will ring out much nicer than a poorly set up guitar. So it's likely not the TYPE of shim, but simply the better setup.
I have just the opposite problem. My saddles won’t go any lower and the strings are still too high
truss rod, no? tighten it if your neck is curved.
This is exactly where you want to use a shim. If you use a 0.5 degree shim, it should give you about 2mm more adjustment at the bridge.
If that is a white Tele, then how do you call an orange guitar? Yellow! And a green one? Blue!
Dont bother comparing dirty sounds.....shimming is just for adjustments.
lower the height of the higher frets that is to say the frets nearer the body of the guitar.
No difference in tone, guys.
Only the sustain can be affected, actually it is, a little bit.
A little bit more with the card, obviously because of the air gap.
For those who don’t know yet where the tone come from(e.guitar), watch Jim Lills video about…
SM sounded the best 😎
All guitar tone demos go out the window the moment you hit the distortion switch. You are no longer playing the guitar - you are playing the pedal.
It is not unusual after a shim that the whole guitar sounds better. What happens is over time the screws loosen a little. Not enough to notice but once you shim the guitar you naturally make sure the neck is on tight. You can even give a little tighten to an old guitar without any problems and find by 'magic' it sustains longer :-)
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Loose screws are a separate issue, not a reason to shim. Just fill the loose holes with a toothpick or two and maybe a small drop of glue. Or if its really loose, a maple dowel same and redrill proper hole size.
this color blind lady is great!
Interesting how any small detail makes a difference. Stew-mac sounded woodier
No difference in any, the flaw in these comparisons is always going to exist, you cannot play the guitar the same weight and the guitar needs a long time to settle from a neck removal plus other parameters, the sustain and sound is nut to bridge, guitar pups don't pick up like a diaphram so the only time you can listen to the acoustic qualities is without the amp, generally speaking a bolt on neck will change sound because of socket tension, where fasteners are not torqued the same or are loose, stripped even adding shims can create future issues depending on the material used as moisture can play future issues, so it's not clean cut, guitars constantly change their sound, strings, climate and expansion and contraction all play a part.
Pro guitarist 40 years. This is typical of most nerd tech-head site. (I include hi fi nuts in the 70's in this). Much ado about nothing. Get out and play and see how the real world looks!
Are people not allowed to enjoy the instrument in different ways? We can’t all be pro guitarists.