Agreed. The Voltage is a from-scratch Plexi style amp, much louder than the Brit Plexi or Brit Trem models. The amps with built-in boosts require more DSP than the earlier ones, in most cases. The Cartographer cabs, to my ears, have a broader frequency spectrum and run louder than the Cali and Uber V30 cabs. I absolutely do think the modeling process has changed. And the DSP creep will affect single processor units first. Everything Line 6 has released since 2018 has been single-processor. I typically include a JC120 alongside a drive amp in my Stomp presets, and it's becoming impossible to do my style of builds anymore.
Jonny, great playing/patch as always! There’s definitely something going in the new update, I agree with you. Could it also be the fletcher munson effect be taking place here? Things take up more DSP for amps! Not sure what’s ahead but my theory is that this is the beginning for what’s coming out in future. 😅
I think the last couple releases are giving a preview teaser of what Helix 2.0 will bring. I agree the new amps and cabs sound and feel different (and much better IMO) than most of the originals. It's as though they have developed a new software algorithm for modeling and they are beta testing it with these small updates to OG Helix before introducing the new and improved hardware and software package that we all assume is coming.
Thanks JL; thought that my "that Old Guy" ears started tricking me with recent releases--suspicions confirmed! Appreciate you Sir! P.S. Hey Line 6 / Yamaha: put JL on your beta tester list in the pole position!!!
I tried to message Line 6 about this on their amps a while back (they were replying to FB comments at the time). I was having to use an EQ or compressor after to boost it up to a suitable recording level into the DAW. Its also janky in that my medium output single coils on the strat had digital clipping.. I'd engage the pad in global and it still clipped, there were workarounds but I couldnt get those chimey clean tones easily. That seems to have been fixed in the last update.
This is exactly why I did not update my main unit yet. One more show and I can do the update. Did not want to mess any presets or settings. Updated the spare unit to 3.8 and the bogner stuff sounds really good. Does it sound better than before?
Recently switched to Fractal from Helix. The reason being is the fidelity is much higher with Fractal amps. Not that you cannot get good tone from Helix but it takes more work and still doesn't get to Fractal's level. That being said, Line 6 may be trying to close the gap. But louder doesn't mean better. Line 6 need to work on clarity and openness esp with their distorted sounds IMO. If I play an open chord with some distortion, I can hear every note on Fractal. Helix is muddier. Again, not bad. Just not as good. I'm not trashing Helix. I'm just pointing out differences to my ear.
This is interesting. I have not yet done this update because it seems like I am reading more difficulties with this one that normal so I was sitting back a while. That said the one thing I have never heard folks discuss that I always found was that in all previous iterations every preset I made I always ran them far louder that what a base preset would be. And that adjustment was always made in the 'multi' output section. I used that to balance between snapshots, them matched all those from preset to preset. And with that they were always more lively and responsive overall. What you're describing here is exactly the difference between where I might find a 'normal' preset level (your 2204 example) in previous FW versions and my finished preset (your BOGRED) in this new FW. I will be curious now when I eventually do update and play with it a bit if I won't need an much output boost in the 'multi' section as before.
I’ve not had any problems with this update , even in beta it was pretty stable . But there’s definitely a dynamic difference somewhere in these latest updates . We curious minds need to know . 😎
@@JonnyLeeguitarist Indeed. Was this output difference evident on just the new amps or something that has been applied to all previous presets as well, factory of the ones you made? I am always a bit concerned on how updates might impact things I have many hours into already and am very happy with and that I have little desire to spend more hours on re-tweaking.
Almost mistook this for clickbair ! You may be on to something. The audio engine overhaul and the cab model update (over the last few years) may have had an effect on the modelling methodology and the quality of the resulting models. Which is making new models betterer now. Nice !
Agreed. The Release Notes include this innocuous comment "Other minor fixes and improvements". I think the Sound Designers at Line 6 pay attention to User suggestions on IdeaScale, and other Forums, and are truly committed to making improvements. Each new Update sounds better and is easier to dial in than the last. As far as the Modeling "architecture", a Update or two ago, they made a comment about being patient while installing the Update, because it contained thousands of new IRs. I believe they have improved the IR capture process, and this has contributed to the quality of the Presets. This is mostly speculation on my part, as I have no insider knowledge of what they do. But, I think it actually sounds "better."
@@JonnyLeeguitarist I have a suspicion that IRs in Line 6 Modelers applies not just to Cabs, but to Amps, Effects, etc. and may be the underlying Architecture of how they work. The Release Notes for Firmware Updates 3.70 and 3.71 respectively mention "IMPORTANT! The 3.70 update process may take 30 MINUTES OR MORE TO COMPLETE. This is totally normal, as it includes thousands of additional IR files."
I read on a forum somewhere that Yamaha/Line 6 has put a TON of R&D into improving the modeling process. I think the technology is moving forward. Even low cost modelers sound great these days.
Dumped my HX Stomp XL about a week or two before the latest update drop and got into Tonex. I do not regret my decision. I will have another Helix int the future, I know that for certain. I will hold off until the hardware receives a much needed update. Update where devices receive more dsp.
@@JonnyLeeguitarist for the price of Tonex One, it is hard not to. I would love to run two Tonex Ones and an updated Stomp for my complete rig. The guitar would be the heaviest piece of equipment moving forward for me which I am ok with. Hopefully Line 6 makes that a possibility. I am going to assume much closer than I think because Line 6 is oddly good at keeping secrets, and when they keep dropping $150 off sales every other month, it makes me think that they are offloading stock for something newer.
Line 6 may be making improvements, via firmware and within the limits of currently available DSP, to its amps/cabs and effects, already preparing for a future hardware version (a Helix II) considering that the hardware is still the same as in 2015. FractalAudio's AXE-FX III (released in 2018), in addition to firmware improvements, has already released TWO models "with steroids" in terms of hardware: first the "Mark II" and then the "Mark II Turbo". All of them, in my opinion, halted their ongoing projects when Fender released its smashing sales success - the Tone Master Pro (with octacore processor...) providing an impressive super user-friendly interface with a HUGE touch screen + awesome computer based editor software. They may be pushing the models currently on the market to the limit, testing what is to come perhaps as early as 2025...
Had to laugh when you noted the Kinky Boost between the amp and cab wasn't needed with the Xtra Red. I found the same thing. It did the opposite that it usually does. God darker and a touch muddier.
I noticed some subtle differences as well but just thought it was cleaning up things or that maybe I was actually figuring out how to get things to finally sound good 😂. But after more critical listening with headphones, there is some serious differences in some of the amps and weak patches stick out obviously now.
As an idea A) are they trying new Approach before launching a new helix floor or B) are they trying to Improve the current model seeing if people notice without releasing a statement ??
I do hope line 6 do update their amp models.. I should hope their newer stuff starts to sound better. I loved my Helix and My HX stomp , But i originally ditched my Helix for a Kemper because it just felt better and less "Digital".. I think Line6 just really struggle with higher gain amps , The feel of the chugs and the high end was just harder to tame and sounded really fizzy and less punchy. A few years later i picked up a HX stomp and compared it to my Fractal FM3 on cygnus and it was just night a day difference again the high end fizz was just cutting through. The Helix is still a perfectly capable unit i just hope they deep dive and sort the amp models because i swear the 5150 and JCM 800 models are the exact same models that are in the Line 6 POD HD PRO X metal pack as i did a shoot out comparison with those and couldn't tell the difference... They just need to update all of the models and i genuinely would consider buying one again as the workflow is still by far one of my favourites.
The Helix does seem to be showing it's age a bit. I recently picked up the Neural DSP Gojira plugin and it's just better than the Helix. I was more or less happy with Helix's modeling until I tried plugins by Mercuriall and NDSP and now when I play it it's frustrating because I have to do so much tweaking to get a good sound in comparison.
As the owner of a physical ivory 5150iii to directly compare I can tell you the latest ev Panama updates are insanely accurate. They are a bit more DSP hungry but nothing extreme, my stomp runs them with a boost, delay reverb eq etc with no issues.
I don't think that a mere change of volume is an indication that there is some sort of significant change. Basically, modelling is "calculating" a waveform. The volume of the waveform seems to me like something very basic that you do at the end of the entire process. The calculated waveform before a volume boost should look the same as after a volume boost. Our ears will perceive it differently as a result of Fletcher-Munson of course but that has nothing to do with modelling as such. Now, if I were Line 6 (and I'm not ;-)) I would continuously work on improving my mathematical models and add more flexibility to accurately model the different options of the real-life amps. In line with that, it should not be a surprise that the later models sound better (or perhaps are perceived to sound better ??? confirmation bias anyone ????) or at the least take up more DSP. Btw, love your videos man, keep up the good work !!
I left the Line 6 stuff behind me about 15 years ago when they really started sitting on a very high horse. I never looked back or regret it. There is so much better stuff out there for the money.
@@JonnyLeeguitarist There's likely a feel aspect in addition to sound that probably wouldn't come across in a vid. Perhaps a trip to a shop that carries a wide selection is warranted.
Ya sounds a lil louder im really loving the Panama red , i just purchased a 5150 stealth 50 and they match as well as expected hope you have a happy holiday season my friend and remember " happy wife , somewhat bearable life " keep rockin Mr Jonny
idk what they've done but I agree it's changed with the updates- for the better.
Yes definitely!
Interesting! Thanks, shall think on this and look a bit closer, cheers.
Let me known what you find .
Agreed. The Voltage is a from-scratch Plexi style amp, much louder than the Brit Plexi or Brit Trem models. The amps with built-in boosts require more DSP than the earlier ones, in most cases. The Cartographer cabs, to my ears, have a broader frequency spectrum and run louder than the Cali and Uber V30 cabs. I absolutely do think the modeling process has changed. And the DSP creep will affect single processor units first. Everything Line 6 has released since 2018 has been single-processor. I typically include a JC120 alongside a drive amp in my Stomp presets, and it's becoming impossible to do my style of builds anymore.
Interesting 🧐
Did anyone else notice in the release notes that a couple of the new cabs (Ben Adrian ones) were "captured?"
Yeah it was interesting terminology 🤔
Jonny, great playing/patch as always!
There’s definitely something going in the new update, I agree with you. Could it also be the fletcher munson effect be taking place here?
Things take up more DSP for amps!
Not sure what’s ahead but my theory is that this is the beginning for what’s coming out in future. 😅
It’s definitely something in the modeling process .
Definitely something going on
I think the last couple releases are giving a preview teaser of what Helix 2.0 will bring. I agree the new amps and cabs sound and feel different (and much better IMO) than most of the originals. It's as though they have developed a new software algorithm for modeling and they are beta testing it with these small updates to OG Helix before introducing the new and improved hardware and software package that we all assume is coming.
Yeah I agree
OMG yes! The evh sounds just like my real evh and the new soldano cab rules. I have never used the cabs and always IRs but that has changed now
Yeah I’ve gone back to stock cabs aswell
Then you can hear it with the super reverb. There’s all sorts of extra tones going on there, very realistic
Im waiting for the rivera TBR1m. I offered them mine to work on but didnt hear back
That’s a stunning amp !
Agreed; I noticed something was different with the 2203. Much more organic sounding. Straight away I didn’t need to tweak it. I’m not complaining.
That was the first one that caught my attention. 2203 is great
Thanks JL; thought that my "that Old Guy" ears started tricking me with recent releases--suspicions confirmed! Appreciate you Sir! P.S. Hey Line 6 / Yamaha: put JL on your beta tester list in the pole position!!!
Thanks for watching mate ! . I doubt they’ll do that 😂
I barely know how to turn on the unit - but I absolutely love your tones! hahaha thank you!
You’re welcome mate , thanks for watching
I tried to message Line 6 about this on their amps a while back (they were replying to FB comments at the time). I was having to use an EQ or compressor after to boost it up to a suitable recording level into the DAW. Its also janky in that my medium output single coils on the strat had digital clipping.. I'd engage the pad in global and it still clipped, there were workarounds but I couldnt get those chimey clean tones easily. That seems to have been fixed in the last update.
Interesting 🧐
@@JonnyLeeguitarist I also always wondered why mine came with a massive allan key. Like they envisioned changing chips at some point.
@@GotGearMate I believe the allen key is for tightening the expression pedal.
@@Mister_Greg Really? I've owned Moog, Yamaha, Korg, not to mention the Ernie Wahs and none of them needed a wrench ...weird.
This is exactly why I did not update my main unit yet. One more show and I can do the update. Did not want to mess any presets or settings.
Updated the spare unit to 3.8 and the bogner stuff sounds really good.
Does it sound better than before?
I think the Bogner is perfect , the EVH amps are also great. Yes sounds better
Quilter!!!❤️ My favorite amp ever
The best !
Recently switched to Fractal from Helix. The reason being is the fidelity is much higher with Fractal amps. Not that you cannot get good tone from Helix but it takes more work and still doesn't get to Fractal's level. That being said, Line 6 may be trying to close the gap. But louder doesn't mean better. Line 6 need to work on clarity and openness esp with their distorted sounds IMO. If I play an open chord with some distortion, I can hear every note on Fractal. Helix is muddier. Again, not bad. Just not as good. I'm not trashing Helix. I'm just pointing out differences to my ear.
I agree , I think Line 6 will be looking to hugely improve for their next unit .
This is interesting. I have not yet done this update because it seems like I am reading more difficulties with this one that normal so I was sitting back a while. That said the one thing I have never heard folks discuss that I always found was that in all previous iterations every preset I made I always ran them far louder that what a base preset would be. And that adjustment was always made in the 'multi' output section. I used that to balance between snapshots, them matched all those from preset to preset. And with that they were always more lively and responsive overall. What you're describing here is exactly the difference between where I might find a 'normal' preset level (your 2204 example) in previous FW versions and my finished preset (your BOGRED) in this new FW. I will be curious now when I eventually do update and play with it a bit if I won't need an much output boost in the 'multi' section as before.
I’ve not had any problems with this update , even in beta it was pretty stable . But there’s definitely a dynamic difference somewhere in these latest updates . We curious minds need to know . 😎
@@JonnyLeeguitarist Indeed. Was this output difference evident on just the new amps or something that has been applied to all previous presets as well, factory of the ones you made? I am always a bit concerned on how updates might impact things I have many hours into already and am very happy with and that I have little desire to spend more hours on re-tweaking.
@nnervous seems to be the new amps are clearer and a touch louder , this needing less channel volume in the preset .
I had no probs w the update. Backup first, though.
Agreed. They need to go back and freshen up the old amps before they’re done. Using 65 Super & 2203 right now.
The 2203 is awesome
@ I have a 2204 modded Origin 20 and it nails it. Just using the head for a power amp now mostly.
Nice !
Almost mistook this for clickbair ! You may be on to something. The audio engine overhaul and the cab model update (over the last few years) may have had an effect on the modelling methodology and the quality of the resulting models. Which is making new models betterer now. Nice !
Could be mate . I don’t do clickbait tho ever . Definitely not my thing 😂
Agreed. The Release Notes include this innocuous comment "Other minor fixes and improvements". I think the Sound Designers at Line 6 pay attention to User suggestions on IdeaScale, and other Forums, and are truly committed to making improvements. Each new Update sounds better and is easier to dial in than the last.
As far as the Modeling "architecture", a Update or two ago, they made a comment about being patient while installing the Update, because it contained thousands of new IRs. I believe they have improved the IR capture process, and this has contributed to the quality of the Presets. This is mostly speculation on my part, as I have no insider knowledge of what they do. But, I think it actually sounds "better."
Funny you should mention IRs, I’ve gone back to stock cabs, so you’re probably onto something.
@@JonnyLeeguitarist I have a suspicion that IRs in Line 6 Modelers applies not just to Cabs, but to Amps, Effects, etc. and may be the underlying Architecture of how they work. The Release Notes for Firmware Updates 3.70 and 3.71 respectively mention "IMPORTANT! The 3.70 update process may take 30 MINUTES OR MORE TO COMPLETE. This is totally normal, as it includes thousands of additional IR files."
@ that must have been the start of the revamp
Agreed. The tones coming from this most recent update are noticeably better….
I hope so
Someone left the dial on 12? Clearer?
Who knows ?
I read on a forum somewhere that Yamaha/Line 6 has put a TON of R&D into improving the modeling process. I think the technology is moving forward. Even low cost modelers sound great these days.
They do , even the cheap stuff I’ve done on this channel is awesome
Dumped my HX Stomp XL about a week or two before the latest update drop and got into Tonex. I do not regret my decision. I will have another Helix int the future, I know that for certain. I will hold off until the hardware receives a much needed update. Update where devices receive more dsp.
I should probably get into ToneX , I’ve heard good stuff , not that expensive either .
@@JonnyLeeguitarist for the price of Tonex One, it is hard not to. I would love to run two Tonex Ones and an updated Stomp for my complete rig. The guitar would be the heaviest piece of equipment moving forward for me which I am ok with.
Hopefully Line 6 makes that a possibility. I am going to assume much closer than I think because Line 6 is oddly good at keeping secrets, and when they keep dropping $150 off sales every other month, it makes me think that they are offloading stock for something newer.
@MacMFer you could be right
🤞
Tonex one into Stomp’s fx loop is the best combo for me.
Line 6 may be making improvements, via firmware and within the limits of currently available DSP, to its amps/cabs and effects, already preparing for a future hardware version (a Helix II) considering that the hardware is still the same as in 2015. FractalAudio's AXE-FX III (released in 2018), in addition to firmware improvements, has already released TWO models "with steroids" in terms of hardware: first the "Mark II" and then the "Mark II Turbo". All of them, in my opinion, halted their ongoing projects when Fender released its smashing sales success - the Tone Master Pro (with octacore processor...) providing an impressive super user-friendly interface with a HUGE touch screen + awesome computer based editor software. They may be pushing the models currently on the market to the limit, testing what is to come perhaps as early as 2025...
They’ve got some catching up to do . I have faith tho .
Had to laugh when you noted the Kinky Boost between the amp and cab wasn't needed with the Xtra Red. I found the same thing. It did the opposite that it usually does. God darker and a touch muddier.
That proved to me they’re doing something different now .
I noticed some subtle differences as well but just thought it was cleaning up things or that maybe I was actually figuring out how to get things to finally sound good 😂. But after more critical listening with headphones, there is some serious differences in some of the amps and weak patches stick out obviously now.
Yeah the difference between some of the amps is shocking .
As an idea A) are they trying new Approach before launching a new helix floor or B) are they trying to Improve the current model seeing if people notice without releasing a statement ??
Literally could be either of them
@@JonnyLeeguitaristI think in my logic thats the only 2 theories I could muster pal .
@tubber37 good enough mate 😎
I do hope line 6 do update their amp models.. I should hope their newer stuff starts to sound better. I loved my Helix and My HX stomp , But i originally ditched my Helix for a Kemper because it just felt better and less "Digital".. I think Line6 just really struggle with higher gain amps , The feel of the chugs and the high end was just harder to tame and sounded really fizzy and less punchy. A few years later i picked up a HX stomp and compared it to my Fractal FM3 on cygnus and it was just night a day difference again the high end fizz was just cutting through. The Helix is still a perfectly capable unit i just hope they deep dive and sort the amp models because i swear the 5150 and JCM 800 models are the exact same models that are in the Line 6 POD HD PRO X metal pack as i did a shoot out comparison with those and couldn't tell the difference... They just need to update all of the models and i genuinely would consider buying one again as the workflow is still by far one of my favourites.
I’m sure whatever they do next , modeler wise will be an upgrade.
The Helix does seem to be showing it's age a bit. I recently picked up the Neural DSP Gojira plugin and it's just better than the Helix. I was more or less happy with Helix's modeling until I tried plugins by Mercuriall and NDSP and now when I play it it's frustrating because I have to do so much tweaking to get a good sound in comparison.
Yeah helix takes some tweaking I agree
As the owner of a physical ivory 5150iii to directly compare I can tell you the latest ev Panama updates are insanely accurate. They are a bit more DSP hungry but nothing extreme, my stomp runs them with a boost, delay reverb eq etc with no issues.
@ they’re very very good.
What I know is that the Bognor Blue absolutely ROARS for rhythm guitar at church 🙂
That’s the next video 😎
@@JonnyLeeguitarist Awesome, always wanted a church video from you 🙂
@miccullen if I went to church I’d burst into flames
@@JonnyLeeguitarist We take ANYONE, even Poms 🙂
@miccullen 😎
I think they are beta testing the next Gen stuff with this latest update. Amps are taking more CPU.
I agree , I’ve said for a while
That new amps seem to zap
More CPU.
Hey Jonny, peace 👍💪✌
Wassup brother!
@@JonnyLeeguitarist freezing, it's below zero. Other than that, all good.
@ not quite that cold here so I’m still wearing shorts 😂
Jonny, I love you man!
Cheers mate 🙌😎
I don't think that a mere change of volume is an indication that there is some sort of significant change. Basically, modelling is "calculating" a waveform. The volume of the waveform seems to me like something very basic that you do at the end of the entire process. The calculated waveform before a volume boost should look the same as after a volume boost. Our ears will perceive it differently as a result of Fletcher-Munson of course but that has nothing to do with modelling as such. Now, if I were Line 6 (and I'm not ;-)) I would continuously work on improving my mathematical models and add more flexibility to accurately model the different options of the real-life amps. In line with that, it should not be a surprise that the later models sound better (or perhaps are perceived to sound better ??? confirmation bias anyone ????) or at the least take up more DSP. Btw, love your videos man, keep up the good work !!
Cheers mate , like I said the “ volume “ opinion can be a difficult one for some .
I left the Line 6 stuff behind me about 15 years ago when they really started sitting on a very high horse.
I never looked back or regret it. There is so much better stuff out there for the money.
I’ve tried a few different units , all of them excellent, my favourite has been the fractal FM9.
What would you suggest instead of Line 6 stuff?
@ I’d try everything if you can , watch reviews , your ears will decide .
@@JonnyLeeguitarist There's likely a feel aspect in addition to sound that probably wouldn't come across in a vid. Perhaps a trip to a shop that carries a wide selection is warranted.
@TechnoRiff I completely agree !
Ya sounds a lil louder im really loving the Panama red , i just purchased a 5150 stealth 50 and they match as well as expected hope you have a happy holiday season my friend and remember " happy wife , somewhat bearable life " keep rockin Mr Jonny
Have a great Christmas mate
Put the tin foil hat on
They are working on a new series. Probably be a year off but i know they are working
Clearly you’re in the know 😎
@@JonnyLeeguitarist they call me Noah - cause i know fukin everything
:)
@ 😂