love that end "But won't it cause some apparent inaccessibility in some isolated cases?" ......."uhhhhhh yes it will, anyways thank all goodbye I have to go bye now" systemd still looks like the good way forward. hilarious intro though
It's so weird right now getting used to systemd to the point where it kind of feels like a passive aggressive mother in law. Though a lot of the old init commands still technically work like *service httpd start* with the output of *redirecting to /bin/systemctl start httpd.service* I find myself half expecting to see something along the lines of 'oh....so you used an init command, not that theres anything wrong with that but heres the proper way to execute a service command. You silly kids.' Ironically enough I think my main gripe is that I have to type a couple extra characters before I can use tab to auto complete. Before servi(tab) -> service After syste(tab) *bloop* system(tab) *bloop* systemc(tab) -> systemctrl First world problems FTW! Nao who do i Suez wen i getz the capel tunel diesease?
@Pawlerson Not at all, because BSD is Open source and having competitors with diverging idea is good to make a better OS (learning from everyones errors). Some very good technologies are just because they were first on *BSD or Solaris. Like ZFS leading to the creation of BtrFS! And so on !
@Pawlerson Jails is better than all that because it's not virtualization at all, so no performance cost. Same thing for ZFS who is only supported on Linux via FUSE and fuse has very bad performances compared to a proper Kernel driver. And, no Packet Filter is just way way better than everything we have on linux. It's not linux that make things so great, that's everything around it. It's the same on *BSD or everything else. The kernel is just a Kernel, in fact we can change it at will (kfreebsd)
@Pawlerson I don't care about theses kind of debate when we came to systemd because *BSD and Solaris already have a different init system than Linux. It's shell based, but it's not compatible with SystemV init like we can see it in Linux. In fact some linux distributions are using different sets of init scripts that are not compatible with each other ... But I don't know why you are saying that not making it portable is good. No it's not good, it not bad either, but certainly not good !
@Pawlerson Why are you thinking that like a competition. It's not a competition at all, it's doing thing differently and taking note on why something is better there and why we should do the same or not ! It's like saying a Lion and a Panther are in competition with each other to know who is the best predator ... In fact they just want to eat. Not eating them on another.
ZFS actually does/can run as a linux kernel module, the reason you don't see it in distros is licencing incompatibilities.. LXC to me looks like it could meet or exceed jails once it's matured It's a similar technology, allowing namespace isolation of a group of processes. Better for resource management (cgroup based) worse for security (no superuser privilege separation) Each focuses on a different thing and are better at different things RE: pf vs iptables, it's all greak to me
@Pawlerson You seem to neither have ears of freeBSD's jails, Solaris' ZFS, OpenBSD's Packet Filter it seems ^^ Theses technologies are really not Legacy. In fact we are still as Linux users missing theses features. And if theses features means nothing to you, and it's just the Kernel port of it you are criticizing, FreeBSD has a really good kernel, In fact it compares very well with Linux and is really similar. So if Unix like kernels are legacy, Linux is as well. We should move to Haiku-OS ^^
i have low hopes for pulseaudio. linux is only supported by major corporations in the enterprise. they don't give a flying eff about sound mixing on a database cluster.
samir wanderung Almost every distro uses it by default. Gentoo offers it as an alternative to OpenRC, and Slackware just shunned it entirely.I've *heard* it's possible to replace it with Upstart on Debian or Ubuntu, albeit difficult.
Crackerjack the4th samir wanderung Debian and Ubuntu both switched to systemd on paper, the first Ubuntu version that will use systemd by default will be 15.04, the corresponding version of Debian will be Debian 8 "Jessie". They will both be out later this month (23rd and 25th of April, AFAIK) or at least in early March.That also means, that all the "offsprings" of those two will, almost inevitably, switch to systemd in the next two years aka mostly everything is systemd before the end of 2017. Also, switching to systemd from Ubuntu 14.10 is actually not difficult at all. They already ship service and socket files with Ubuntu and the only thing you're left to do with, is install systemd and change your boot config to use it rather than upstart. When I tried out the first Beta of Ubuntu 15.04, which was updated to systemd ON THE FLY(!) by just doing apt-get dist-upgrade and rebooting - as a user you didn't really notice anything. Worked as before - but on systemd.
Systemd is all about creating a proprietary abstraction layer between you and the kernel in your distro....replacing init is just a side show. Systemd goes against FOSS on multiple levels and its hooks into more and more of the functionality are a chilling development. Systemd is the microsofting of Linux....
Agreed. It's all about RH taking control of the Linux world and leading the entire Linux community down redhats corporate path. Same as them implementing xfs. There is NO good reason to do so apart from creating a Linux world of "Follow RH or get left in the cold". The spirit of open source/free software has been killed by RedHat.
*+Sn SM* Maybe Lennart can share some of his Billions with all of us then. Even Debian adopted systemd, so even if you walked in here from 1990s, you could update your thinking a bit.
systemd is the future.....there is no better alternative to systemd. Punk ass bitches like you come and go with time......but remember you guys have no influence on the future of unix/linux. GTFO!
If you are a Debian power user, you should know that systemd is a nightmare. Really, some of the tools even disrespect the user settings blatantly. It is the user that owns the computer, not the other way around. What you have said is akin to "many people in the world eat bugs, so you should eat them too". No, I don't want to deal with someone else's bad decisions, and clean the mess after. I want to be free to install HID devices and use them in userspace without udev and systemd related madness. And I don't want to open a case just to have Lennart send me packing.
Bad code. Bad backwrds compatibility. Bad idea. Windows could use the theory for faster stgartups on Desktops. Useless and troubling LONG command line interaction makes it more than useless in a server envirnoment. Pottering must look good to corporate beurocrats. He does produce lots of code quilckly. The problem is it is garbage.
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love that end "But won't it cause some apparent inaccessibility in some isolated cases?" ......."uhhhhhh yes it will, anyways thank all goodbye I have to go bye now"
systemd still looks like the good way forward. hilarious intro though
It's so weird right now getting used to systemd to the point where it kind of feels like a passive aggressive mother in law. Though a lot of the old init commands still technically work like *service httpd start* with the output of *redirecting to /bin/systemctl start httpd.service* I find myself half expecting to see something along the lines of 'oh....so you used an init command, not that theres anything wrong with that but heres the proper way to execute a service command. You silly kids.' Ironically enough I think my main gripe is that I have to type a couple extra characters before I can use tab to auto complete.
Before
servi(tab) -> service
After
syste(tab) *bloop*
system(tab) *bloop*
systemc(tab) -> systemctrl
First world problems FTW! Nao who do i Suez wen i getz the capel tunel diesease?
Yourself for not automating tasks you've found yourself doing commonly.
alias s="systemctl"
problem solved
+Dirtbag359 loved the "bloops", tho you don't need need the _.service_ suffixes.
@Pawlerson Not at all, because BSD is Open source and having competitors with diverging idea is good to make a better OS (learning from everyones errors).
Some very good technologies are just because they were first on *BSD or Solaris. Like ZFS leading to the creation of BtrFS! And so on !
@Pawlerson Jails is better than all that because it's not virtualization at all, so no performance cost.
Same thing for ZFS who is only supported on Linux via FUSE and fuse has very bad performances compared to a proper Kernel driver. And, no Packet Filter is just way way better than everything we have on linux.
It's not linux that make things so great, that's everything around it. It's the same on *BSD or everything else. The kernel is just a Kernel, in fact we can change it at will (kfreebsd)
voice recognition is great but reads LSB as lesbian (CC button to enable) still very helpful
@Pawlerson I don't care about theses kind of debate when we came to systemd because *BSD and Solaris already have a different init system than Linux.
It's shell based, but it's not compatible with SystemV init like we can see it in Linux. In fact some linux distributions are using different sets of init scripts that are not compatible with each other ...
But I don't know why you are saying that not making it portable is good. No it's not good, it not bad either, but certainly not good !
@Pawlerson Why are you thinking that like a competition. It's not a competition at all, it's doing thing differently and taking note on why something is better there and why we should do the same or not !
It's like saying a Lion and a Panther are in competition with each other to know who is the best predator ... In fact they just want to eat. Not eating them on another.
ZFS actually does/can run as a linux kernel module, the reason you don't see it in distros is licencing incompatibilities..
LXC to me looks like it could meet or exceed jails once it's matured It's a similar technology, allowing namespace isolation of a group of processes. Better for resource management (cgroup based) worse for security (no superuser privilege separation)
Each focuses on a different thing and are better at different things
RE: pf vs iptables, it's all greak to me
@Pawlerson You seem to neither have ears of freeBSD's jails, Solaris' ZFS, OpenBSD's Packet Filter it seems ^^
Theses technologies are really not Legacy. In fact we are still as Linux users missing theses features.
And if theses features means nothing to you, and it's just the Kernel port of it you are criticizing, FreeBSD has a really good kernel, In fact it compares very well with Linux and is really similar. So if Unix like kernels are legacy, Linux is as well. We should move to Haiku-OS ^^
Thank you. A great explainer.
I'd be curious about how does udev come in play with regards to systemd
i have low hopes for pulseaudio. linux is only supported by major corporations in the enterprise. they don't give a flying eff about sound mixing on a database cluster.
this is a terrible way to talk to the kernel so hope you all like rebooting to install a program look close.
Adam Time Could you please elaborate on that and kinda prove your point?
Great talk, thank you.
Great presentation.
Does archlinux use systemd by default ?
yes, since 2012 IRC.
Yes
samir wanderung Almost every distro uses it by default. Gentoo offers it as an alternative to OpenRC, and Slackware just shunned it entirely.I've *heard* it's possible to replace it with Upstart on Debian or Ubuntu, albeit difficult.
Crackerjack the4th samir wanderung Debian and Ubuntu both switched to systemd on paper, the first Ubuntu version that will use systemd by default will be 15.04, the corresponding version of Debian will be Debian 8 "Jessie". They will both be out later this month (23rd and 25th of April, AFAIK) or at least in early March.That also means, that all the "offsprings" of those two will, almost inevitably, switch to systemd in the next two years aka mostly everything is systemd before the end of 2017.
Also, switching to systemd from Ubuntu 14.10 is actually not difficult at all. They already ship service and socket files with Ubuntu and the only thing you're left to do with, is install systemd and change your boot config to use it rather than upstart.
When I tried out the first Beta of Ubuntu 15.04, which was updated to systemd ON THE FLY(!) by just doing apt-get dist-upgrade and rebooting - as a user you didn't really notice anything. Worked as before - but on systemd.
Systemd is all about creating a proprietary abstraction layer between you and the
kernel in your distro....replacing init is just a side show. Systemd goes against
FOSS on multiple levels and its hooks into more and more of the functionality are
a chilling development. Systemd is the microsofting of Linux....
Agreed. It's all about RH taking control of the Linux world and leading the entire Linux community down redhats corporate path.
Same as them implementing xfs. There is NO good reason to do so apart from creating a Linux world of "Follow RH or get left in the cold".
The spirit of open source/free software has been killed by RedHat.
*+Sn SM* Maybe Lennart can share some of his Billions with all of us then.
Even Debian adopted systemd, so even if you walked in here from 1990s, you could update your thinking a bit.
*+Cailean MacCoinneach* In your head maybe.
systemd is the future.....there is no better alternative to systemd. Punk ass bitches like you come and go with time......but remember you guys have no influence on the future of unix/linux. GTFO!
If you are a Debian power user, you should know that systemd is a nightmare. Really, some of the tools even disrespect the user settings blatantly. It is the user that owns the computer, not the other way around.
What you have said is akin to "many people in the world eat bugs, so you should eat them too". No, I don't want to deal with someone else's bad decisions, and clean the mess after. I want to be free to install HID devices and use them in userspace without udev and systemd related madness. And I don't want to open a case just to have Lennart send me packing.
samir wanderung its a native
Bad code. Bad backwrds compatibility. Bad idea.
Windows could use the theory for faster stgartups on Desktops.
Useless and troubling LONG command line interaction makes it more than useless in a server envirnoment.
Pottering must look good to corporate beurocrats. He does produce lots of code quilckly. The problem is it is garbage.
This guy speaks toooo fast, therefore hard to follow!!!