The biggest bonus to the digital dex is that it can be updated with all their FAQS, far to often I've been in a game and they say 'oh, this does this now, it was in a FAQ' but they couldn't prove it, and threw a fit when I wouldn't allow it. This cuts that problem out. I still think they should give the digital with the book, or at least at a discount, like a with a code. They've done things like that with other game books in the past, be nice if they would here. And the munitorum and some of the smaller digital books is just DLC money grabs, it's sucks. Biggest slap to the face is when you buy a new Dex, and then a week later they announce the rest of the bloody thing is coming out for another fourty dollars, like with the Farsight Enclave, and the Eldar one. It's maddening. The Sister's of Battle one was a joke, a minor rules clear up to the crap they put out in White Dwarf, no new units, in fact they took some more away because that was going into the bloody Inquisition book. GW is loosing me day by day. There was a time I didnt consider playing any other game, now I own six other systems, and have two on Kickstarter I'm waiting for. That's a good bit of coin GW has lost due to this money grabbing crap.
There is a very interesting article about Digital Products in the new White Dwarf (March 1st) written by Jervis Johnson. I think we (customers/fans) are asking for more and they found a way to give us more. What we're getting might not be the same we asked for, but thanks to the digital products, we get to see things that otherwise wouldn't get to see the light. People in my gaming group use the new Sisters of Battle, Sentinels of Terra and Inquisition every weekend. We're playing Kill Teams and using formations in our campaigns. I thinks it's very exciting to have so many options and ways to play 40K.
After buying Codex: Inquisition and realizing it was basically a carbon copy of what was already in Codex: Grey Knights, I became immediately leery of buying anything else from GW/Black Library. The SoB codex was half-decent though, but I really wish they did a physical book. I will also say that, while you can get these products on a Kindle, they are very obviously designed for an iPad audience.
I agree with your analysis Matt, I recently got an iPad and started dabbling in the digital content from GW, it leaves a lot to be desired. I'm hoping they are paying attention to reviews like this and will learn from their mistakes... hoping. The Tyranid Dataslate situation is pretty appalling in my opinion. Some even theorize that they possible released a watered down codex to create a player base starving for better options, then in comes 3x $15USD dataslates to "save the day."
I actually have a few of these for the android, kindle, etc. For example I got the Black Legion supplement. They release the iPad version first and then several weeks later on the black library website for the non-ipad version.
Now only if they could make a digital tabletop and sell everything 1/3 of the cost of real models. Or include codes with boxes too. Because it is hard to find time, other players, funds, and painting up figures. While those parts have always been part of this hobby. Having a digital tabletop would allow for random battlefields, painting program, automatic rulings and dice rolls, matchmaking around the world, setting up campaigns, tournament play... Oh well.
oh but their is one coming. slytherine studios (deadliest warrior) is working on a 40k tabletop conversion to digital. though this was announced some time ago, we ehard 0 about it since its announcement, and this has the potential to be putrid because ya know.. slytherine studio's
Hmm. Well I hope something good comes from it. I mean, if they even made something free to play where you start with a few squads and with a cash store for squads, bits, etc. It may expose more people to the tabletop.
I think thats horrible! When you play tabletop games without having your opponent right in front of you... I don't know for me that is not longer the feeling and the fun that tabletop games come with...
Justin Peterson How about the feeling of having no one locally to play with? Or not being able to have the disposable income to drop 600 dollars on a army, books, terrain, paints, etc.
Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon is hex based. It's one of those games with tabletop inspired rules like Squad Command or even Mark of Chaos. -- so it's not virtual 40k
Would be interesting to hear what you think about the Kill Team rules being on the iBooks store after being free on the GW site...considering most Kill Team fans agree that the community-made version of the rules is much better than either GW version!
I like the idea of physical books having a code for the digital. Also, for models that only have digital rules (Cypher I'm looking at you), then there should be a code included when you buy the model. I know the reason I didn't buy Cypher for my Fallen Angels army was that I didn't want to pay $25 for the model, and another $10 for the rules. That way if someone buys the model, they get the current rules. But if they already own the model they can just buy the updated rules. I would think that would go over well.
Going through the Tyranid dataslates, my biggest issue is that most of this stuff should have been in the Codex in the first place. The other issue is, of course, the ridiculous price tag for something that other companies would put up for free or sell for like 2 bucks.
The only thing I would add is about Altar of War: GW says very clearly in all the Altar of war mission, found in codex supplements and other places, is that they are not balanced in the same way as normal missions and are designed to make players use different tactics and play styles. They are meant to be deliberately more challenging for one side than the other. So given they declare this themselves it's maybe a bit harsh to criticize them for that.
I agree that GW should combine the digital and physical formats of one product. If they want to prevent their retailers from selling them for less, then only off the duel package through their stores or their website. LGS only get the physical book. That's what they are selling anyway.
Watching this video makes me wonder: I haven't read/bought any Codex since I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition, do they not include any fluff in them anymore? The eBook/interactive version looked like it which is fairly sad. Those Munitorum books would be really nifty as I like getting to know more about the background but 2$/weapon is just far too much. As Matthew said, they should make a compendium of all Imperial/Space Marine weapons (or better yet, one for each race) and sell that for 15$. Oh well. Thanks for the video anyway, it was really interesting to see what GW is releasing digitally as I don't have an iPad and it was great to hear your opinion about it.
Personally, I feel like digital editions are great for one reason. It makes it that much easier for someone to upload the content to a torrent website or some kind of file sharing website, post it on 4chan, and then that allows hundreds, maybe even thousands of people to get it for free. I am a budget-minded individual, so I could really care less about GW's attempts to squeeze more money out of the "fanbase." I am savvy with computers, so I know exactly where to go and how to get what I want. Things like this will always happen. GW releasing digital editions of everything just makes it that much easier for people to upload or convert a PDF for the rest of us to use for what it should cost. FREE. Keep in mind this isn't about codexes, this is about DLC or "expansions" that you don't use in typical games, or perhaps not even use it at all. Codexes should continue to cost $. I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to pay for extra stuff that I will hardly ever use that should be either released on the web for free or cost much less such as "Tyranid Vanguard" or "Escalation".
Speaking as someone that has started into the realm of wargaming within the last year. GW has done a great job of driving me off with their prices. Such a high initial buy-in just for the rules. All the other games I have looked at provide at least a quick start guide with an inexpensive starter box. I'll happily keep playing Warma-hordes and Infinity instead of investing in GW stuff.
If your job is to convert book for print file to eBook, then 30-60 hours is not asking a lot. That is one to two weeks of work, considering an 8 hour day. If it is in addition to other duties, then it can be a bitch but still handled over the course of three to four weeks. Again we are considering 8 hour days. As for deadlines. Everyone has them. It's called having a job. Problems... we all got them.
That's the thing it won't be any one person's job. Ever wondered why gaming books in general are normally so badly edited? Its because the writers are their own editors and in many cases formatters and art designers. Time spent redoing something already done for a format that will actively resist you every step of the way is time taken from actual creative writing.
I agree that digital media should be cheaper than physical media however this a perception that is quickly changing among consumers as we see in the video game industry, for example, that many AAA titles are being released on Steam for $60 as they would in a physical retail store.
In terms of Games Workshop's perspective, it's better to sell 100 manuals/codexes for $1 than 1 for $100 because then you have 100 times more people playing the game and buying paints/miniatures/other merchandise. The only thing GW is doing by raising their prices is making room for competitors to come in and fill that demand. Look what you started, Matt!
I think the standard ebooks come with the pop-up rules when you click on them. Because I have the eldar and tau codices, just the standard ebooks, and the farsight enclave supplement and I can do that too. Honestly I think the standard ebook is the way to go for GW stuff.
I actually LOVE the IDEA of digital books. They have better funcionality than their paper equivalents (possibility of updates and interactive features to name just a few). I believe ALL books should be available in digital (and it seems to go that way, so yay!). Some people prefer paper (or cannot access digital), so the key books should be available in paper as well. However, GW has just started working with the digital "medium", as opposed to paper, which they use for about 30 years now. Some ideas they have are good, others... not so good, but they learn. I give them digital editions time. In my opinion, in few years time we'll all get used to digital books and GW will learn how to make them better. And there will still be guys buing paper versions, but that's OK. Now, back to painting. Happy wargaming everybody!
I read the Jervis Johnson article in the White Dwarf about these digital books. I get that some armies or units are only going to generate maybe a few hundred players/customers, so a digital book for those armies or units seems good. But they should still provide a way to get a solid in the hands book/home printed copy of what you bought. I don't have an ipad so I can't get these. I have an Inquisitorial army and a small Sisters of battle army. I now can't use any of those GW models in a 6th edition game at a tournament because they, most of the time, require you to have your own rules book for the army that is current. I like collecting but now I have almost 200 (two hundred) models that are just for looking at. What do I do now?
I'm not a big fan, but with the cheaper prices of the Ebook version, what I do is have a copybook where I write out the rules of whatever units I'm using and that way I don't have to go searching the ebook to find it in the middle of a game which is a hassle. That said, writing out the rules for units only really works for me because I only started 'nids so I can write out the rules as I get the minis which I'm doing rather slowly because of their prices. But yeah ... that's my view.
I picked up the digital version of Kill Team for the droid and it was very annoying. After a lot of fighting I just did a bunch of screen shots and edited them together and printed the mess.
Problem is, back when they first started releasing these, they were the same price of the codex, it was interactive, that was really nice, but still to costly for most. Then, when they decided to go in and do the 'cheaper' versions, it was only five dollars cheaper. It wasn't until Apple lost the monopoly lawsuit that they lowered the prices further, that could be considered an Apple thing, but they didnt refund those people that got gypped like that THEN, when they came out with the enhanced editions, they didn't go back and add in the new functionality to the old app books, if they had they would have generated a lot of loyalty to folks, but nope. And if they have, then for some reason my Itunes doesn't download it, and updating doesn't add it.
It all amounts to customer loyalty, and before I get too far, Matt you are incorrect about warmachine rules costing money. While the rule books do cost money, they have a quick start set of rules in their battle boxes, and the full rules are included in the War Room app (amazing app btw) which is free in the App Store. What you purchase are the card decks for your specific faction since they only include the stat cards for the initial battle box free in the app. However you don't even need to purchase the decks if you're willing to use the physical cards that come with the minis. Anyway back to my point regarding customer loyalty. Of course it appears to be more cost effective to sell 1 unit for $100 instead of 5 for $20, but that is very short term. The reason being that first it will completely prohibit a great deal of people from buying into the game in the first place, and second is if the player base diminishes then players become isolated and will no longer make purchases due to having no accessible opponents. I was seriously considering starting a 40k army to get back into the hobby... This is what stopped me. $35-$60 for the codex of my army $75 for rule book $80-$110 just for the bare minimum models to play (meaning 1 hq and 2 troops boxes) So the absolute bare bottom investment just to start is almost $200. This doesn't even include hobby necessities like paint, tools, brushes etc. (prices may vary depending on your location) Now you have an army, but it's far too small to actually play against someone who's been collecting for even just a month or two ahead of you. Just to get to 1,000 points, which is somewhat small by most army standards, could easily cost you another $150-$200. Tally all of that up, and you are sitting at about $350-$400 to start the game with a small army. I personally don't have the cash to burn to start something like that. Then on top of it I'm getting nickel and dimed for extra scenarios, and formations which really should have been in the rule book and codex to begin with. All this says to me that the company producing the game is solely concentrating on their profit margins, and doesn't give a flying you know what about me playing and enjoying the game I spent so much on. You can say giving away free stuff is a bad business model, but consider this. I sure as heck won't be giving any business to a company that makes me feel like I took it up the tail pipe when I made a purchase from them. I spent $100 on something and then need a shower because I feel like I got violated. No repeat business from me in the future. Now the company has to raise prices to compensate for the others like me who leave the hobby/don't even start because of price. Customer base shrinking because of cost is a slippery slope that results in a dead business. By contrast I could spend $50 on a different game. I get more for the money I spent, and get some free stuff to boot. Now I feel minty fresh, and continue to buy products from this company. I end up spending $500 over the next few months because I'm getting into the game without feeling like I'm getting taken advantage of, and the wife is is more understanding of $10-$30 purchases instead of $50-$70 purchases. Bam, customer loyalty. Now imagine how many more people can be won over with a strategy like that. Customer base will grow. Food for thought.
The enhanced edition looks pretty nice, it really could help making the game easier for new players. and i also like the army making tool thing (if it was working). Now i don't have any of them and im never going to in their current state. Because i think it's too expencive. and i would any day of the week, rather have a book, than and ebook, beacause i write side number references in my books. this is what makes me like the enhanced edition. But still too expencive. And it dossen't even update with the extra "new rules" for Belakor, as an example.
My friend an I don't even use the supplement books. We make up our own scenarios and then play that way. We even made up an army and its corresponding codex to play against our armies. But I still wouldn't buy the ebook version anyway even if it had a much lower price. I like having the physical book in my hand and I don't have any Apple devices... But I do like the idea of having the digitized force organization chart. That makes it easier to assemble an army and keep track of the points. Though there is still something satisfying about that winning army you built on a piece of lined paper.
I will never go for a company that releases things online only and only on some type of devices when it is a real live based game. I personally run a quite large gaming group (between 20-50 players per week) and am seriously thinking of not accepting digital only versions if they do not have paperback equivalents in all the tournaments and events that I will be running. If it exists on paper, will accept that someone has a tablet version, if not, too bad.
ya the tyranid force requisition is pretty buggy i have the space marine one and you can scroll across and see all your choice still no edit option though
I kinda hated paying so much for Be'lakor..... but hes sooooo good like omg he owns in almost every game i play with him, shrouded plus knowing all the telepathy powers yes plz!!
I'm from a "poor" EU country where average wage is half or less of what you'll get in let's say UK. Since GW has same prices in all of EU their products are very expensive for me. Same goes for any other product with fixed global price. Guy from France has to work 4 hours to buy a computer game, I have to work 12 to get it. In the end it's just a piece of plastic. GW prices are inflated, the production cost is vastly lower then the sell price. They control the market so they can ask whatever they want for their products.
I know having a roster tool kit with the enhanced edition is fantastic and I hope GW fix it... Buuuuuut while your waiting you can use an app called iroster from the App Store, you have to own own the physical edition so you can put in your army but if you own an iPad that app is awesome.
After getting back into 40k after a good 8 yrs I found all the imperial armour and codex supplements to be completely overpriced and refuse to give them any money for those books. I Totally advocate the use of illegal donwloading/torrenting to collect these books and I am now sporting the entire collection in PDF format. While many of you would say this is detrimental to the health of Gw as a company. I personally disagree as though they may have lost out on hundreds of british pounds by me Not purchasing these books, they have invariably Gained thousands More from me in miniatures from gw/forgeworld I then bought After the fact. So in summary i believe they Should give out these books for free at least in digital formats as they do more often than not end up making me want more models lol.
I work in publishing. For some reason intelligent people does not understand printing the paper is not the main cost off a "book". Hence digital editions can not be "free" or cost 1/10 off normal books. To not offer more than Ipad/Mac-compability is off course very bad. Also if you make a digital product it should be digital/computer friendly. That is what everyone want. Automatic updates, take very litte space and you can print lists made in the system. Add pictures, sound, send stuff to your friends etc. The standard problem is the interface is not user friendly and/or products are release before they are tested properly. By users, not the technicans making them. You should offer a package, printed & digtal for a good price. Then one player buys two "copies....
I don't have an iPad, so I won't be buying any of these. In the future, if I do have an iPad, I may buy them if they increase radically in quality or decrease radically in cost. I will ALWAYS buy the physical codex for my army. I just love the feel of a real book in my hands.
Pretty good thoughts overall. I am rather new to the game but after finding out about GW's business practices I really wish I wouldn't have made the large investment that I have. Don't get me wrong. The game is fun and the fluff is pretty interesting but every time they come out with new stuff it seems like it is more expensive and the tactic seems more money grubbing. In my opinion I think they should have an mmo type system. Where you subscribe but reap special benefits for paying a monthly price. But that would probably require expanding their business and providing actual player/collector feedback. Just don't pull a move like WotC did for D&D 4e.
You summed up the problem with 40k with a simple contradiction you made: at the beginning of the video, you state that the price of a product should be the maximum the market is willing to bear. Later in the video, you say that the codices should be cheaper but you're willing to get some of them because you really like what they have (particularly the formation stuff). Everyone likes 40k, but no one wants to pay GW's ridiculous prices. Unfortunately, that's the only way to play 40k, so the fans pay them anyway, and GW thinks their prices are therefore acceptable. The only solution is to look at the insane price gouging they're doing with these news supplements and to just not buy them. It sucks, but it's the only signal that GW will hear.
we should also consider having a mass evacuation from playing a new codex and stick the 5th edition. like forexample just refusing to play 6th edition tyranids at tournaments and letting 5th edition be legal with new units and gear as supplementals
The ipad-only content an obvious barrier to entry, no matter who you are. Kickstarter games like Golem Arcana and Ex Illis had problems because the game is so integrated to a computer device that it divides an already niche market. GA fixed the problem a bit by having everything incorporated in their box set; Ex illis never recovered and their KS died off. Maybe I'm off and the GW market does have the disposable income to buy $100 books and $1k armies but as one of those 'college students who bought in' the ipad requirement told me 'this game is for a higher class person than you'. Oh, and to correct you Matt, Warmachine /Hordes isn't the same. You buy the rules the same way you buy a new issue of Forge World's 'Imperial Armour' series but that's more like buying a catalog since each miniature comes with the stat card that tells you all you need to know to play it. (Assuming they're comparable miniatures) The new Circle Orboros Satyr costs me $35 and I can play it straight out of the blister /box. Be'lakor, Daemon Prince costs $38 + 3 GBP for its rules off their digital website + an ebook reader if it turns out to be incompatible with my computer's software. As a casual, you can bet which system I'll prefer.
I would argue that the supplements are coming out too fast. What is the percentage of people who have actually downloaded a supplement and implemented it? How do you organize tournaments with supplements coming out every month? 40k needs a hard balance and has needed one since 4th. GW is letting their "profit margin maximization" get in the way of making a game that will outlast subpar games like Warmachine or Infinity.
100 things for $1 or 1 thing for $100.......this got me thinking.....your right it's all about profit margin, if your profit margin is greater on selling 100 things as opposed to 1 then it's better and likewise with selling 1 thing, however what about the intangibles of say spreading a great product over 100 pieces potentially going to 100 different persons and that increasing demand and fanfare for said product? How much would that be worth......?
I actually like the digital copies. As a matter of fact, I specifically bought a Nook HD so that I could get them (the epub version, not the ipad). Why the nook and not the Ipad? Well, the codex is cheaper, and then it is compatible with my home computer as well, plus, no itunes and apple cult indoctrinations. Why go digital at all? To be fair, the price wasn't really a part of it, and personally, I actually prefer a hard copy right now (though ebook readers are constantly improving and are on the rise). Mainly, it was so that I didn't have to worry about lugging around all the physical copies of everything. I've got all my codexes in the palm of my hand. I've already got programs to build lists with if I don't want to do it with a pencil, so the "army builder" section of the interactive codex wasn't important. Speaking of Army builder... the GW army builder was really great. I wish they would update and re-release it, heck, give it away for free even. Not likely, but it would be nice, it was actually a good product.
Biggest problem is that the android ebooks are so much less then a physical copy or the enhanced version. Its just a very unpretty unmodied pdf. As if somebody took the time at lunch to make a word doc about x subject then converted it to pdf and put it up for sale. A lot of the pics a reused from earlier publications and so is a lot of the text. Sad really, cuz if they were good i would buy them all.
Frankly, I was looking forward to the digitals, simply because I have so many books and Rulebooks I do no longer have room to store them. AND I am not willing to buy codices etc. for armies I don´t play any longer at the current cost. My pain-point was back with the softcover editions in the 25 Euro range. I will not pay the current prices for HC codices. IMO very bad price to performance ratio. So I hoped for ebook versions. Then GW happened. I have been in the hobby for more than 20 years. But I´m close to quitting and one point is the MAC deal. If they insist on doing only IOS versions of the digitals they should at least print the supplements for sale.
If the army list of enhanced version of the codex would have worked similar to Army Builder, then the price would be worth it. Army Builder cost about $50, and has an annual subscript fee of the same price. But as it stands at the moment, I would only get the regular pdf version only because it would save me space and weight. The supplements are not very enticing due to the price for me. As it is, I don't get to play as much as I would like, and adding extra mission is not something a am hungry for. As for being an iOS product, I am a Mac/Apple fan. Enough said on that note.
i don't understand how games workshop charges so much in their own shops/websites when i can go on darksphere (uk only) and buy the same models on there for 20-30% less! I'd prefer to sell 5 things at £25 thand 1 thing at £100 because you'll have 1 person buying the £100 thing once a month or 5 people buying the £25 every WEEK I always bulk buy off that website anyway
true but you only have to type in on google cut price models and three places come up (dark spheres been the best) but the main thing that puzzles me is like i said is how they can sell 20-30% cheaper (depending on the models initial price) than games workshop themselves
Cheap Munch Dark Sphere isn't 100% ideal. I love going to Dark Sphere to buy stuff for my beloved hobby, but unfortunately I live on campus in Essex for my college, and their delivery prices can steepen a lot more than Games Workshop when it comes to ordering the cheaper things such as paints and hobby equipment, so I usually still make orders from Games Workshop
Because GW sells to other shops at wholesale price. That could be maybe 40-60% of RRP (let's assume 50%). So lets say a model is £100 RRP and a shop sells at 20% off, so £80 is what you pay. There's VAT on that so the shop gets ~£66 there. If GW sells for £50 that's £16 the shop gets from your purchase. Due to VAT paid to GW that can go up to £24. So from £100 they are getting only £24 with which to pay their staff, rent, bills, tax and make a profit. But even then, how come GW can charge £50 for a bit of plastic? Well that £50 has to pay for a lot. It has to pay for the raw materials, the moulds, the machinery, the factory, the factory staff, any faulty batches, the packaging, the model designers, the packaging designers, the web designers, the sales people, shipping to stores, advertising, bills, rent, tax and make a profit (and I'm probably missing a lot of things there). So the reason other companies sell at x% off is because they decide to take a smaller cut of profit and try to make it up in volume. It's always why you don't see many brink and mortar shops doing more than a 10-15% discount, as they simply can't afford it as they don't have the volume and have higher costs.
i know how retail works matey, i worked in there for 15 years, in an electrical shop we bought in at one price sold as another but we could give discounts at our discretion (just meant less commission for us lol) what i mean is i don't get why GW don't sell things for the best price they can when these other shops can that's all i mean
GW has been raising their prices steadily for years and I find it rather irritating. I love GW minis and the fluff of the armies but when I started gaming years ago a codex cost $25 and a supplement codex was only like $10. Not to mention the digital line is still to dang expensive and Mac only is a killer.
I've been spoiled by getting this kind of stuff free from other companies like Corbus B and Dream Pod 9. I have a hard time justifying the expense of GW products in relation to their smaller competitors.
Thanks for the review. I always enjoy your reviews since they are, at least from where I am sitting, painfully honest. I've looked at these supplements and they do look appetizing, but I don't own an IPad, and I cannot really justify the expense for one, just to look at codexes (codices?). The IPad is not a really good display for reading (glare and low battery life compared to Kobo/Kindle), and I really don't need one. Were I to buy a tablet I still think I would prefer an Android. So I guess no joy for me. Also, I have to agree with you on GW's overpricing scheme. I think they should provide the bare-essential rules for free and still sell the books. The hard covers provide art and fluff that would not otherwise be found in the free rules. This is what I pay for when I buy a codex. The supplements are especially pricey, especially considering that most of them contain nothing but fluff, and sometimes of a useless nature (E.G. Everything you wanted to know about chainswords, but were afraid to ask!)
Buy the physical codex, buy a mac, get iBook author, make your own enhanced codex for your own personal use and forget about GW's crappy attempt to make an army builder.
Digital releases are over priced. But I don't think it's the cost that is putting people off, at least in my area. 40K night at the independent retailer I frequent began to see a big drop in attendance after the Tau and Eldar releases. I gave up playing competitively a while ago, but it's hard to play at all when the game is this imbalanced. Then, last December, GW began spewing out digital releases that allowed anyone to play certain units without any force organization and "codecies" like Inquisitor were released, all for more than they should sell for. In fact, these releases should not have been made at all. 40K night took another big hit, escalation helped here, but there was a lot of hate over the data-slates too. Now, 40K night sees big turnouts for games like Warmacine, Pathfinder, and X-wing while the forums laugh at things like the Legion of the Damned Codex and complain about the price of Imperial Knights and the like. All I can say is that, if you don't like the way things are going, don't buy it. I haven't bought a GW product since the Space Marine book came out and I saw that Centurions are $78 a box. Most everyone in my area has moved onto other games as well. Maybe someday, GW will take the hint and change their way, but until then, X-wing has found a place in my hobby time.
Personally I like the sounds of the enhanced edition with links to rules but as I personally prefer android and hate the restrictive nature of IOS I will not be getting it till they expand there market at Games Workshop
I had to buy adeptas sororitas codex on that because they only released it on a digital copy! I'm fine with paying for stuff at gamesworkshop! But I dont want digital copies I prefer to hold what I buy Im just very fussy its me! And I am in the digital age! But I just dont like digital copies I own all by albums on cd and copy them to computer.
I agree that if you buy the hard cover book it should come with the ebook for free and have an option to pay like another $10-15 and upgrade the ebook to the interactive one. I wouldn't buy a ebook codex but if they did it that way I would definitely upgrade and get the interactive version. As for the supplements $18 is way over priced I think maybe $8.99 as like a max price. All these e versions are not going to replace hard cover. Are we going to have games where everyone brings there ipads and charges etc just to play a game. It's like ok here is my bag with my army in it and here's my other bag so I can have all my gadgets going so I can gland at a rule now n then. What if you go to a gaming hall and your devise dies half way through a game what do u do just end the game n go home. There handy to have but should come as standard with a hard copy.
Giving things away for free is a horrible business model. As an enticement it can be useful. Take a good look at your bits box and there you will see what free is. Sure you bought the models, sure you cannot always make every variant from a single kit. Free bits make free models, free models make happy modelers, happy modelers are happy customers, happy customers buy more models. This is a hobby it's not a necessity. It's actually a rather extravagant hobby considering how much we pay for plastic toys. That being said, if a heldrake were only $30 US and it still only cost GW $1.50 US to make, they would not sell ten times as many because there is a finite amount of 40K players and even less chaos space marines players. What there would be, and I'm very very sure about this, is a bunch of bitches on the internet crying about how it should be $25 US at the most!
When Napolean Hill, the Author of "Think and Grow Rich" went and interviewed all of the richest men in America, they every one told him "If you ever want to get rich, you must give things away". Some were in steel, others in automobiles and even others in railroads. I started my first business in Graphic Design and didn't follow the rule. I still have my business but it isn't booming. I bought a second business a few years ago and after the first year of just "making it" I decided to follow the business guru's advice and started giving away my product every time I had an opportunity. My business has about tripled over the past 2 years from doing this. Giving things away for free, to an extent, is a great business model.
Eric French I bet if you owned a business that they wanted to sell their product through, you would get things from them free, at least to begin with. Check out BTP... people are sending them things free all the time. Game companies included. Why? Because they know BTP will show their stuff in battle reports and the like and because BTP shows their free stuff online, people go to their sites and buy them. My food business, for instance. I can try to sell it all day long... but until people started getting Free samples, they didn't buy because who wants to spend money on food when they don't know the taste? We also give away all of our left over prepared food so it wont go to waste and I cannot tell you how much money or how many jobs we have picked up from those free giveaways. I own my two businesses and my family owns an auto repair shop that was opened by my grand father in 1952. Napa, Auto Zone, O'Reilley, Bell bros and Advanced Auto all come weekly to GIVE us things they want us to sell so we can test them and start selling them. Snap On Tools and MAC tools have trucks that come to our business weekly to show off new tools and devices and they actually GIVE us basic tools and sets hoping we'll buy the full versions or the complete sets. Giving a product away, especially a product like GW stuff that once you're hooked you keep expanding, is the best way to get careful shoppers and buyers to try your product. Just like these guys at Mini Wargaming... Get a couple of bat reps from their story line with Nids vs Necrons... and then if you want the rest, you sign up to get into the vault where you can see the rest for a small fee. It's just plain good business. Read about Trumph also... Another great example.
A vendor comping some SWAG to a retailer is not the same. GW has a terrain program where they give local game clubs thousands of dollars worth of GW terrain in order to set up good gaming tables when a club runs events. That's not what I'm debating. I know business practices, Matthew wants IP for free to the masses of end users. It's like me saying that giving your leftovers away is not enough, every customer should get free appetizers every day. And you should send free appetizers to anyone who requests one. It is a horrible model and a crippling method of doing business. You're confusing free advertisement, which is built in to the cost of operations, to free IP. Mom and Pop shops are not the same as publicly held companies either.
Eric French We're clearly not going to agree on this. The greatest business men of the ages do not know what they're talking about apparently. You fail to mention all of the large businesses I name such as NAPA and Advanced Auto and Auto Zone which are nation wide and have no need to give things away to get "swag". They bring in millions a day and yet they're out there giving away their product and even their services to small companies to win favor and to show off their product. And yes, favor is a huge part of it. "Yes sir, just say you'll use our business and we'll give you free shipping and have stock men come out for free to fill your stock." Or Napa "Just put this sign up that says 'Napa Care Center' and we'll give you free batteries and free delivery service'". Like it or not, it's been proven throughout the years that Free makes money. GW giving away the supplements online as downloads would cost them nothing more than the space on the server people are downloading it from and the time to make the supplement. However, it would build interest and people would be persuaded to buy models from them to play these supplements. Ah and you mentioned 3M above. Yes, they gave us Brake Cleaner and Carb Cleaner for our business in hopes that we would stock it since we go through about a case of 12 a week. And you know what? We stock them both now.
I was very disappointed when I bought the Blood on the Snow. It was listed as a smaller scenario for fantasy so I was suspecting something to make armies field able in small points costs, notably Brettonia who have to take 2 characters no matter the points costs. nothing of the kind was in the book, just a few tables of upgrades you could get by fielding particular types of units, units that aren't even available universally. the lack of thought put into the supplement put me off spending any more money. without a way to see the content first its difficult to know if its worth buying. It isn't so much the cost but the potential quality that puts me off, perhaps if there was a customer review option (or in the case of Blood on the snow if the writer had stopped to think about what they where doing). Just as a note however; e reader versions are usually available for the basic supplements, and with and addon, can be viewed in browser
to be honest I like the digital books. but as an owner of a non ipad tablet I whole do very much so believe that they are limiting their profits and are playing to much into the apple craze.
the model you are using for your economic theory has some strong assumptions like perfect information, no market power (a lot of sellers and a lot of buyers),... not to crack down your statements but I think GW is a monopoly ( for warhammer 40k)
Matt, I really, really Miniwargaming channel and your batreps. But this review is really, really flawed, at least in one important part. First of all, those dataslates and codices are not just for iOS (expect those pricier interactive), they are for Kindle (I have few of them there) and eReaders too, which means you can read those almost on every tablet. When you repeat the mistake "only for iOS, which is very limiting" its really wrong. Especially for potential customers - who are reason for review.
economics 101? there are a lot of SoB fans, ho wont play them, because its not relevant. The unofficial dex is something that brings them back to a somewhat competitive aspect, but they are more fun then really competitive, and then there is the one...that...gw...rele....THIS is NOT eco 101! Orks need a 6th ed dex, and they are pushing out grey knights?! Sob need better models, more variety, DE need a new dex - glance to death, anyone? :P - ig need one to, and i am w8ing for my biel tan dex suplement...
Wow, hitting the haterade pretty hard, huh. I like the digital products a lot, myself. You might wAnt to a bit of research before you crack so hard on them. You pretty much want them to give away a digital product because you bought print product? Does that work real well in the store? Just the updates and enhanced links are worth the price. I have ditched print codices, no reason to have them any more. Heavy, outdated and they get tore up. As far as beating up their QA process, have you watched your own vids? The music is so loud you can't hear the narrator... And you use the same crappy loops 50 times.
They are just publishing too much (print and digital). I buy some models now and then if I like them, but it seems you have to give them some money every week to keep up to date. They should just follow the Infinity model: charge people money for a nicely printed book and put all the info for free on the internet. And please, differentiate between nicely laid out fluff books that I want to keep, and minimal rulebooks that are obsolete within a few days. If the only selling point of yet another publication is a new rule I NEED to play the game I'll pass. This starts to look more and more like the 'least publishable unit' in science. So please GW: just produce stuff that is nice on its own, whether it is a nice looking model or a really nice book, but bugger off with all the paid for rules and other crap that will be obsolete within a few days.
Matthew, I appreciate the look at the products and the opinions but you have wandered over too many issues and conflated issues that have no real relation to each other. Let's take two overriding issues you mention. First, cost: If you make the digital copies a lot cheaper than the physical versions then you drive down demand for the physical which then drives down the print runs which then, ultimately, leads to much higher costs for the print. So would it then be ok to say, "Well if you still want the print you have to pay a premium."? If so isn't that a bit like what is happening now in reverse? There is also the issue of larger digital sales then means fewer sales for hobby retailers. Second, platform: This one is not really GW's fault. The current eBook market is a tough, confused place. Apple takes a flat 30% of the price the publisher chooses. Amazon forces a price/profit matrix on publishers that makes it very hard to make any money unless you have very high volume. I believe the Google Play store also takes 30% but I'm not positive. Now GW could do like they do with Black Library and just sell the .ePub versions (or even pdf) but they are probably rightly concerned about rampant piracy of such a move. Moreover, only Apple currently has the ability to have interactive editions unless you want to actually make the publication an app for iOS and Android. This is possible but has its own problems both for the publisher and the user and would drive up costs even more. So in the world of 40K where $50 models are the norm asking or expecting customers to get a $300 iPad 'accessory' doesn't seem all that crazy. All of this will shake out in the coming years but this is one place where most of the issues are not GW problems but one of the publishing, tech and even IP industries as a whole. Free rules: There is no such thing. Rules have to be developed, tested, written, designed, illustrated and published. This all takes quite a bit of time, effort and money. The question is do you want direct or indirect compensation for them? GW could put them all up on a wiki for no cost but they would then have to raise the prices on other products to pay for them. This has at least one disadvantage of separating the costs from the income and thus the incentive to improve or increase the 'free' product. Now obviously the rules drive demand for the physical and other products but free would ultimately lead to lower quality rules production because there is no direct revenue. Why have a lushly illustrated ruleset if just text sells the models? Now this is not all a reason to not do free rules because there are other benefits but let's not think it is a decision without its own inherent problems.
New tyranids vs Dave's chaos!
The biggest bonus to the digital dex is that it can be updated with all their FAQS, far to often I've been in a game and they say 'oh, this does this now, it was in a FAQ' but they couldn't prove it, and threw a fit when I wouldn't allow it. This cuts that problem out.
I still think they should give the digital with the book, or at least at a discount, like a with a code. They've done things like that with other game books in the past, be nice if they would here.
And the munitorum and some of the smaller digital books is just DLC money grabs, it's sucks.
Biggest slap to the face is when you buy a new Dex, and then a week later they announce the rest of the bloody thing is coming out for another fourty dollars, like with the Farsight Enclave, and the Eldar one. It's maddening.
The Sister's of Battle one was a joke, a minor rules clear up to the crap they put out in White Dwarf, no new units, in fact they took some more away because that was going into the bloody Inquisition book.
GW is loosing me day by day. There was a time I didnt consider playing any other game, now I own six other systems, and have two on Kickstarter I'm waiting for. That's a good bit of coin GW has lost due to this money grabbing crap.
The munitorium collection is pretty much the book you want. It even has sound effects!
There is a very interesting article about Digital Products in the new White Dwarf (March 1st) written by Jervis Johnson. I think we (customers/fans) are asking for more and they found a way to give us more. What we're getting might not be the same we asked for, but thanks to the digital products, we get to see things that otherwise wouldn't get to see the light. People in my gaming group use the new Sisters of Battle, Sentinels of Terra and Inquisition every weekend. We're playing Kill Teams and using formations in our campaigns. I thinks it's very exciting to have so many options and ways to play 40K.
After buying Codex: Inquisition and realizing it was basically a carbon copy of what was already in Codex: Grey Knights, I became immediately leery of buying anything else from GW/Black Library.
The SoB codex was half-decent though, but I really wish they did a physical book.
I will also say that, while you can get these products on a Kindle, they are very obviously designed for an iPad audience.
I think digital apps are a brilliant decision.
Remember, we still have piratebay...
I agree with your analysis Matt, I recently got an iPad and started dabbling in the digital content from GW, it leaves a lot to be desired. I'm hoping they are paying attention to reviews like this and will learn from their mistakes... hoping. The Tyranid Dataslate situation is pretty appalling in my opinion. Some even theorize that they possible released a watered down codex to create a player base starving for better options, then in comes 3x $15USD dataslates to "save the day."
I actually have a few of these for the android, kindle, etc. For example I got the Black Legion supplement. They release the iPad version first and then several weeks later on the black library website for the non-ipad version.
Also, perhaps after they fix the force requisition chart. They allow you to print your army.
Now only if they could make a digital tabletop and sell everything 1/3 of the cost of real models. Or include codes with boxes too. Because it is hard to find time, other players, funds, and painting up figures. While those parts have always been part of this hobby. Having a digital tabletop would allow for random battlefields, painting program, automatic rulings and dice rolls, matchmaking around the world, setting up campaigns, tournament play... Oh well.
oh but their is one coming. slytherine studios (deadliest warrior) is working on a 40k tabletop conversion to digital. though this was announced some time ago, we ehard 0 about it since its announcement, and this has the potential to be putrid because ya know.. slytherine studio's
Hmm. Well I hope something good comes from it. I mean, if they even made something free to play where you start with a few squads and with a cash store for squads, bits, etc. It may expose more people to the tabletop.
I think thats horrible! When you play tabletop games without having your opponent right in front of you... I don't know for me that is not longer the feeling and the fun that tabletop games come with...
Justin Peterson
How about the feeling of having no one locally to play with? Or not being able to have the disposable income to drop 600 dollars on a army, books, terrain, paints, etc.
Warhammer 40,000: Armageddon is hex based. It's one of those games with tabletop inspired rules like Squad Command or even Mark of Chaos.
-- so it's not virtual 40k
Would be interesting to hear what you think about the Kill Team rules being on the iBooks store after being free on the GW site...considering most Kill Team fans agree that the community-made version of the rules is much better than either GW version!
long gone are the days of GW actually making quality products
I need more fantasy reports!! Are there any coming?
I like the idea of physical books having a code for the digital. Also, for models that only have digital rules (Cypher I'm looking at you), then there should be a code included when you buy the model. I know the reason I didn't buy Cypher for my Fallen Angels army was that I didn't want to pay $25 for the model, and another $10 for the rules. That way if someone buys the model, they get the current rules. But if they already own the model they can just buy the updated rules. I would think that would go over well.
Going through the Tyranid dataslates, my biggest issue is that most of this stuff should have been in the Codex in the first place. The other issue is, of course, the ridiculous price tag for something that other companies would put up for free or sell for like 2 bucks.
I agree with the digital supplements being physical at some point, i prefer the physical book from a collectors stand point and i feel its faster
The only thing I would add is about Altar of War:
GW says very clearly in all the Altar of war mission, found in codex supplements and other places, is that they are not balanced in the same way as normal missions and are designed to make players use different tactics and play styles. They are meant to be deliberately more challenging for one side than the other. So given they declare this themselves it's maybe a bit harsh to criticize them for that.
I agree that GW should combine the digital and physical formats of one product. If they want to prevent their retailers from selling them for less, then only off the duel package through their stores or their website. LGS only get the physical book. That's what they are selling anyway.
Watching this video makes me wonder: I haven't read/bought any Codex since I don't know, 3rd or 4th edition, do they not include any fluff in them anymore? The eBook/interactive version looked like it which is fairly sad.
Those Munitorum books would be really nifty as I like getting to know more about the background but 2$/weapon is just far too much. As Matthew said, they should make a compendium of all Imperial/Space Marine weapons (or better yet, one for each race) and sell that for 15$. Oh well.
Thanks for the video anyway, it was really interesting to see what GW is releasing digitally as I don't have an iPad and it was great to hear your opinion about it.
Be'lakor is also a heavy metal band from Melbourne, Australia.
The more you know
Personally, I feel like digital editions are great for one reason. It makes it that much easier for someone to upload the content to a torrent website or some kind of file sharing website, post it on 4chan, and then that allows hundreds, maybe even thousands of people to get it for free. I am a budget-minded individual, so I could really care less about GW's attempts to squeeze more money out of the "fanbase." I am savvy with computers, so I know exactly where to go and how to get what I want. Things like this will always happen. GW releasing digital editions of everything just makes it that much easier for people to upload or convert a PDF for the rest of us to use for what it should cost. FREE.
Keep in mind this isn't about codexes, this is about DLC or "expansions" that you don't use in typical games, or perhaps not even use it at all. Codexes should continue to cost $. I have no problem with that. But I'm not going to pay for extra stuff that I will hardly ever use that should be either released on the web for free or cost much less such as "Tyranid Vanguard" or "Escalation".
Speaking as someone that has started into the realm of wargaming within the last year. GW has done a great job of driving me off with their prices. Such a high initial buy-in just for the rules. All the other games I have looked at provide at least a quick start guide with an inexpensive starter box. I'll happily keep playing Warma-hordes and Infinity instead of investing in GW stuff.
Actually here's an industry secret: reformatting from print to ebook is a bitch that can take up to an extra 30-60 hours extra work.
It is when you're on a deadline.
If your job is to convert book for print file to eBook, then 30-60 hours is not asking a lot. That is one to two weeks of work, considering an 8 hour day. If it is in addition to other duties, then it can be a bitch but still handled over the course of three to four weeks. Again we are considering 8 hour days. As for deadlines. Everyone has them. It's called having a job. Problems... we all got them.
That's the thing it won't be any one person's job. Ever wondered why gaming books in general are normally so badly edited? Its because the writers are their own editors and in many cases formatters and art designers. Time spent redoing something already done for a format that will actively resist you every step of the way is time taken from actual creative writing.
How the hell do the Sisters of Battle get a new codex before the Orks?!?!
I usually use BattleScribe to do my army list, it has desktop version or apps version for android and apple ios. User friendly and totally free =)
I agree that digital media should be cheaper than physical media however this a perception that is quickly changing among consumers as we see in the video game industry, for example, that many AAA titles are being released on Steam for $60 as they would in a physical retail store.
In terms of Games Workshop's perspective, it's better to sell 100 manuals/codexes for $1 than 1 for $100 because then you have 100 times more people playing the game and buying paints/miniatures/other merchandise. The only thing GW is doing by raising their prices is making room for competitors to come in and fill that demand. Look what you started, Matt!
I think the standard ebooks come with the pop-up rules when you click on them. Because I have the eldar and tau codices, just the standard ebooks, and the farsight enclave supplement and I can do that too. Honestly I think the standard ebook is the way to go for GW stuff.
I actually LOVE the IDEA of digital books. They have better funcionality than their paper equivalents (possibility of updates and interactive features to name just a few). I believe ALL books should be available in digital (and it seems to go that way, so yay!). Some people prefer paper (or cannot access digital), so the key books should be available in paper as well.
However, GW has just started working with the digital "medium", as opposed to paper, which they use for about 30 years now. Some ideas they have are good, others... not so good, but they learn.
I give them digital editions time. In my opinion, in few years time we'll all get used to digital books and GW will learn how to make them better. And there will still be guys buing paper versions, but that's OK.
Now, back to painting. Happy wargaming everybody!
I read the Jervis Johnson article in the White Dwarf about these digital books. I get that some armies or units are only going to generate maybe a few hundred players/customers, so a digital book for those armies or units seems good. But they should still provide a way to get a solid in the hands book/home printed copy of what you bought. I don't have an ipad so I can't get these. I have an Inquisitorial army and a small Sisters of battle army. I now can't use any of those GW models in a 6th edition game at a tournament because they, most of the time, require you to have your own rules book for the army that is current. I like collecting but now I have almost 200 (two hundred) models that are just for looking at. What do I do now?
Print out the rules and staple them together?
Warhammer goes micro-transaction.
I'm not a big fan, but with the cheaper prices of the Ebook version, what I do is have a copybook where I write out the rules of whatever units I'm using and that way I don't have to go searching the ebook to find it in the middle of a game which is a hassle. That said, writing out the rules for units only really works for me because I only started 'nids so I can write out the rules as I get the minis which I'm doing rather slowly because of their prices. But yeah ... that's my view.
I picked up the digital version of Kill Team for the droid and it was very annoying. After a lot of fighting I just did a bunch of screen shots and edited them together and printed the mess.
Infinity and Hawk Wargames are great companies to model off of
Problem is, back when they first started releasing these, they were the same price of the codex, it was interactive, that was really nice, but still to costly for most.
Then, when they decided to go in and do the 'cheaper' versions, it was only five dollars cheaper. It wasn't until Apple lost the monopoly lawsuit that they lowered the prices further, that could be considered an Apple thing, but they didnt refund those people that got gypped like that
THEN, when they came out with the enhanced editions, they didn't go back and add in the new functionality to the old app books, if they had they would have generated a lot of loyalty to folks, but nope.
And if they have, then for some reason my Itunes doesn't download it, and updating doesn't add it.
It all amounts to customer loyalty, and before I get too far, Matt you are incorrect about warmachine rules costing money. While the rule books do cost money, they have a quick start set of rules in their battle boxes, and the full rules are included in the War Room app (amazing app btw) which is free in the App Store. What you purchase are the card decks for your specific faction since they only include the stat cards for the initial battle box free in the app. However you don't even need to purchase the decks if you're willing to use the physical cards that come with the minis.
Anyway back to my point regarding customer loyalty. Of course it appears to be more cost effective to sell 1 unit for $100 instead of 5 for $20, but that is very short term. The reason being that first it will completely prohibit a great deal of people from buying into the game in the first place, and second is if the player base diminishes then players become isolated and will no longer make purchases due to having no accessible opponents. I was seriously considering starting a 40k army to get back into the hobby... This is what stopped me.
$35-$60 for the codex of my army
$75 for rule book
$80-$110 just for the bare minimum models to play (meaning 1 hq and 2 troops boxes)
So the absolute bare bottom investment just to start is almost $200. This doesn't even include hobby necessities like paint, tools, brushes etc. (prices may vary depending on your location)
Now you have an army, but it's far too small to actually play against someone who's been collecting for even just a month or two ahead of you. Just to get to 1,000 points, which is somewhat small by most army standards, could easily cost you another $150-$200.
Tally all of that up, and you are sitting at about $350-$400 to start the game with a small army.
I personally don't have the cash to burn to start something like that. Then on top of it I'm getting nickel and dimed for extra scenarios, and formations which really should have been in the rule book and codex to begin with.
All this says to me that the company producing the game is solely concentrating on their profit margins, and doesn't give a flying you know what about me playing and enjoying the game I spent so much on.
You can say giving away free stuff is a bad business model, but consider this.
I sure as heck won't be giving any business to a company that makes me feel like I took it up the tail pipe when I made a purchase from them. I spent $100 on something and then need a shower because I feel like I got violated. No repeat business from me in the future. Now the company has to raise prices to compensate for the others like me who leave the hobby/don't even start because of price. Customer base shrinking because of cost is a slippery slope that results in a dead business.
By contrast I could spend $50 on a different game. I get more for the money I spent, and get some free stuff to boot. Now I feel minty fresh, and continue to buy products from this company. I end up spending $500 over the next few months because I'm getting into the game without feeling like I'm getting taken advantage of, and the wife is is more understanding of $10-$30 purchases instead of $50-$70 purchases. Bam, customer loyalty. Now imagine how many more people can be won over with a strategy like that. Customer base will grow.
Food for thought.
The enhanced edition looks pretty nice, it really could help making the game easier for new players. and i also like the army making tool thing (if it was working). Now i don't have any of them and im never going to in their current state. Because i think it's too expencive. and i would any day of the week, rather have a book, than and ebook, beacause i write side number references in my books. this is what makes me like the enhanced edition. But still too expencive. And it dossen't even update with the extra "new rules" for Belakor, as an example.
However saying what I said, I agree with the negatives about the Force organisation issues. I still love the interactivity.
My friend an I don't even use the supplement books. We make up our own scenarios and then play that way. We even made up an army and its corresponding codex to play against our armies.
But I still wouldn't buy the ebook version anyway even if it had a much lower price. I like having the physical book in my hand and I don't have any Apple devices...
But I do like the idea of having the digitized force organization chart. That makes it easier to assemble an army and keep track of the points. Though there is still something satisfying about that winning army you built on a piece of lined paper.
I will never go for a company that releases things online only and only on some type of devices when it is a real live based game. I personally run a quite large gaming group (between 20-50 players per week) and am seriously thinking of not accepting digital only versions if they do not have paperback equivalents in all the tournaments and events that I will be running. If it exists on paper, will accept that someone has a tablet version, if not, too bad.
My favourite armies only have digital codices so its a no-brainer for me.
ya the tyranid force requisition is pretty buggy i have the space marine one and you can scroll across and see all your choice still no edit option though
I kinda hated paying so much for Be'lakor..... but hes sooooo good like omg he owns in almost every game i play with him, shrouded plus knowing all the telepathy powers yes plz!!
The best app to build list on ipad is without doubt Quatermaster, well worth $3!
I'm from a "poor" EU country where average wage is half or less of what you'll get in let's say UK. Since GW has same prices in all of EU their products are very expensive for me. Same goes for any other product with fixed global price. Guy from France has to work 4 hours to buy a computer game, I have to work 12 to get it. In the end it's just a piece of plastic. GW prices are inflated, the production cost is vastly lower then the sell price. They control the market so they can ask whatever they want for their products.
I know having a roster tool kit with the enhanced edition is fantastic and I hope GW fix it... Buuuuuut while your waiting you can use an app called iroster from the App Store, you have to own own the physical edition so you can put in your army but if you own an iPad that app is awesome.
After getting back into 40k after a good 8 yrs I found all the imperial armour and codex supplements to be completely overpriced and refuse to give them any money for those books. I Totally advocate the use of illegal donwloading/torrenting to collect these books and I am now sporting the entire collection in PDF format. While many of you would say this is detrimental to the health of Gw as a company. I personally disagree as though they may have lost out on hundreds of british pounds by me Not purchasing these books, they have invariably Gained thousands More from me in miniatures from gw/forgeworld I then bought After the fact. So in summary i believe they Should give out these books for free at least in digital formats as they do more often than not end up making me want more models lol.
I work in publishing.
For some reason intelligent people does not understand printing the paper is not the main cost off a "book". Hence digital editions can not be "free" or cost 1/10 off normal books.
To not offer more than Ipad/Mac-compability is off course very bad.
Also if you make a digital product it should be digital/computer friendly.
That is what everyone want. Automatic updates, take very litte space and you can print lists made in the system. Add pictures, sound, send stuff to your friends etc.
The standard problem is the interface is not user friendly and/or products are release before they are tested properly. By users, not the technicans making them.
You should offer a package, printed & digtal for a good price. Then one player buys two "copies....
I don't have an iPad, so I won't be buying any of these. In the future, if I do have an iPad, I may buy them if they increase radically in quality or decrease radically in cost. I will ALWAYS buy the physical codex for my army. I just love the feel of a real book in my hands.
Pretty good thoughts overall. I am rather new to the game but after finding out about GW's business practices I really wish I wouldn't have made the large investment that I have. Don't get me wrong. The game is fun and the fluff is pretty interesting but every time they come out with new stuff it seems like it is more expensive and the tactic seems more money grubbing. In my opinion I think they should have an mmo type system. Where you subscribe but reap special benefits for paying a monthly price. But that would probably require expanding their business and providing actual player/collector feedback. Just don't pull a move like WotC did for D&D 4e.
You summed up the problem with 40k with a simple contradiction you made: at the beginning of the video, you state that the price of a product should be the maximum the market is willing to bear. Later in the video, you say that the codices should be cheaper but you're willing to get some of them because you really like what they have (particularly the formation stuff).
Everyone likes 40k, but no one wants to pay GW's ridiculous prices. Unfortunately, that's the only way to play 40k, so the fans pay them anyway, and GW thinks their prices are therefore acceptable. The only solution is to look at the insane price gouging they're doing with these news supplements and to just not buy them. It sucks, but it's the only signal that GW will hear.
we should also consider having a mass evacuation from playing a new codex and stick the 5th edition. like forexample just refusing to play 6th edition tyranids at tournaments and letting 5th edition be legal with new units and gear as supplementals
GWs digital products are all well and good but they are not a patch on mantic/purple guerillas digital rule book for dreadball
Too bad SoB is digital only... :/ Would like to buy their codex as a physical version.
I think having a drug addiction is cheaper then playing warhammer.
The ipad-only content an obvious barrier to entry, no matter who you are. Kickstarter games like Golem Arcana and Ex Illis had problems because the game is so integrated to a computer device that it divides an already niche market. GA fixed the problem a bit by having everything incorporated in their box set; Ex illis never recovered and their KS died off. Maybe I'm off and the GW market does have the disposable income to buy $100 books and $1k armies but as one of those 'college students who bought in' the ipad requirement told me 'this game is for a higher class person than you'.
Oh, and to correct you Matt, Warmachine /Hordes isn't the same. You buy the rules the same way you buy a new issue of Forge World's 'Imperial Armour' series but that's more like buying a catalog since each miniature comes with the stat card that tells you all you need to know to play it. (Assuming they're comparable miniatures) The new Circle Orboros Satyr costs me $35 and I can play it straight out of the blister /box. Be'lakor, Daemon Prince costs $38 + 3 GBP for its rules off their digital website + an ebook reader if it turns out to be incompatible with my computer's software. As a casual, you can bet which system I'll prefer.
$80 for the Standard SM codex in Australia.
So depressing to know about all the over seas cheap(er) prices. D:
$90 sorry.
I would argue that the supplements are coming out too fast. What is the percentage of people who have actually downloaded a supplement and implemented it? How do you organize tournaments with supplements coming out every month? 40k needs a hard balance and has needed one since 4th. GW is letting their "profit margin maximization" get in the way of making a game that will outlast subpar games like Warmachine or Infinity.
100 things for $1 or 1 thing for $100.......this got me thinking.....your right it's all about profit margin, if your profit margin is greater on selling 100 things as opposed to 1 then it's better and likewise with selling 1 thing, however what about the intangibles of say spreading a great product over 100 pieces potentially going to 100 different persons and that increasing demand and fanfare for said product? How much would that be worth......?
would've gotten the digital if the builder worked other then that i stick with my physical copy
I actually like the digital copies. As a matter of fact, I specifically bought a Nook HD so that I could get them (the epub version, not the ipad). Why the nook and not the Ipad? Well, the codex is cheaper, and then it is compatible with my home computer as well, plus, no itunes and apple cult indoctrinations. Why go digital at all? To be fair, the price wasn't really a part of it, and personally, I actually prefer a hard copy right now (though ebook readers are constantly improving and are on the rise). Mainly, it was so that I didn't have to worry about lugging around all the physical copies of everything. I've got all my codexes in the palm of my hand.
I've already got programs to build lists with if I don't want to do it with a pencil, so the "army builder" section of the interactive codex wasn't important.
Speaking of Army builder... the GW army builder was really great. I wish they would update and re-release it, heck, give it away for free even. Not likely, but it would be nice, it was actually a good product.
Biggest problem is that the android ebooks are so much less then a physical copy or the enhanced version. Its just a very unpretty unmodied pdf. As if somebody took the time at lunch to make a word doc about x subject then converted it to pdf and put it up for sale. A lot of the pics a reused from earlier publications and so is a lot of the text. Sad really, cuz if they were good i would buy them all.
Space marine books force org works fine. They will work the bugs out of it. It is slightly annoying you can't edit them.
I like them and fine them very useful.
Frankly, I was looking forward to the digitals, simply because I have so many books and Rulebooks I do no longer have room to store them. AND I am not willing to buy codices etc. for armies I don´t play any longer at the current cost. My pain-point was back with the softcover editions in the 25 Euro range. I will not pay the current prices for HC codices. IMO very bad price to performance ratio.
So I hoped for ebook versions.
Then GW happened.
I have been in the hobby for more than 20 years. But I´m close to quitting and one point is the MAC deal. If they insist on doing only IOS versions of the digitals they should at least print the supplements for sale.
If the army list of enhanced version of the codex would have worked similar to Army Builder, then the price would be worth it. Army Builder cost about $50, and has an annual subscript fee of the same price. But as it stands at the moment, I would only get the regular pdf version only because it would save me space and weight. The supplements are not very enticing due to the price for me. As it is, I don't get to play as much as I would like, and adding extra mission is not something a am hungry for. As for being an iOS product, I am a Mac/Apple fan. Enough said on that note.
RE andoid...if you buy them from the Black Library rather than in itunes, you get an epub and a mobi....
i don't understand how games workshop charges so much in their own shops/websites when i can go on darksphere (uk only) and buy the same models on there for 20-30% less! I'd prefer to sell 5 things at £25 thand 1 thing at £100 because you'll have 1 person buying the £100 thing once a month or 5 people buying the £25 every WEEK I always bulk buy off that website anyway
a lot of people don't even know about other shops
true but you only have to type in on google cut price models and three places come up (dark spheres been the best) but the main thing that puzzles me is like i said is how they can sell 20-30% cheaper (depending on the models initial price) than games workshop themselves
Cheap Munch Dark Sphere isn't 100% ideal. I love going to Dark Sphere to buy stuff for my beloved hobby, but unfortunately I live on campus in Essex for my college, and their delivery prices can steepen a lot more than Games Workshop when it comes to ordering the cheaper things such as paints and hobby equipment, so I usually still make orders from Games Workshop
Because GW sells to other shops at wholesale price. That could be maybe 40-60% of RRP (let's assume 50%). So lets say a model is £100 RRP and a shop sells at 20% off, so £80 is what you pay. There's VAT on that so the shop gets ~£66 there. If GW sells for £50 that's £16 the shop gets from your purchase. Due to VAT paid to GW that can go up to £24. So from £100 they are getting only £24 with which to pay their staff, rent, bills, tax and make a profit.
But even then, how come GW can charge £50 for a bit of plastic? Well that £50 has to pay for a lot. It has to pay for the raw materials, the moulds, the machinery, the factory, the factory staff, any faulty batches, the packaging, the model designers, the packaging designers, the web designers, the sales people, shipping to stores, advertising, bills, rent, tax and make a profit (and I'm probably missing a lot of things there).
So the reason other companies sell at x% off is because they decide to take a smaller cut of profit and try to make it up in volume. It's always why you don't see many brink and mortar shops doing more than a 10-15% discount, as they simply can't afford it as they don't have the volume and have higher costs.
i know how retail works matey, i worked in there for 15 years, in an electrical shop we bought in at one price sold as another but we could give discounts at our discretion (just meant less commission for us lol) what i mean is i don't get why GW don't sell things for the best price they can when these other shops can that's all i mean
GW has been raising their prices steadily for years and I find it rather irritating. I love GW minis and the fluff of the armies but when I started gaming years ago a codex cost $25 and a supplement codex was only like $10. Not to mention the digital line is still to dang expensive and Mac only is a killer.
you can't do the code thing, you can just sell the code if you dont need it.
I've been spoiled by getting this kind of stuff free from other companies like Corbus B and Dream Pod 9. I have a hard time justifying the expense of GW products in relation to their smaller competitors.
Thanks for the review. I always enjoy your reviews since they are, at least from where I am sitting, painfully honest. I've looked at these supplements and they do look appetizing, but I don't own an IPad, and I cannot really justify the expense for one, just to look at codexes (codices?). The IPad is not a really good display for reading (glare and low battery life compared to Kobo/Kindle), and I really don't need one. Were I to buy a tablet I still think I would prefer an Android. So I guess no joy for me. Also, I have to agree with you on GW's overpricing scheme. I think they should provide the bare-essential rules for free and still sell the books. The hard covers provide art and fluff that would not otherwise be found in the free rules. This is what I pay for when I buy a codex. The supplements are especially pricey, especially considering that most of them contain nothing but fluff, and sometimes of a useless nature (E.G. Everything you wanted to know about chainswords, but were afraid to ask!)
totally the reason I bought into Dark Potential and am looking at Warmachine. GW has been #1 for too long.
Buy the physical codex, buy a mac, get iBook author, make your own enhanced codex for your own personal use and forget about GW's crappy attempt to make an army builder.
Digital releases are over priced. But I don't think it's the cost that is putting people off, at least in my area. 40K night at the independent retailer I frequent began to see a big drop in attendance after the Tau and Eldar releases. I gave up playing competitively a while ago, but it's hard to play at all when the game is this imbalanced.
Then, last December, GW began spewing out digital releases that allowed anyone to play certain units without any force organization and "codecies" like Inquisitor were released, all for more than they should sell for. In fact, these releases should not have been made at all. 40K night took another big hit, escalation helped here, but there was a lot of hate over the data-slates too.
Now, 40K night sees big turnouts for games like Warmacine, Pathfinder, and X-wing while the forums laugh at things like the Legion of the Damned Codex and complain about the price of Imperial Knights and the like.
All I can say is that, if you don't like the way things are going, don't buy it. I haven't bought a GW product since the Space Marine book came out and I saw that Centurions are $78 a box. Most everyone in my area has moved onto other games as well. Maybe someday, GW will take the hint and change their way, but until then, X-wing has found a place in my hobby time.
Personally I like the sounds of the enhanced edition with links to rules but as I personally prefer android and hate the restrictive nature of IOS I will not be getting it till they expand there market at Games Workshop
I had to buy adeptas sororitas codex on that because they only released it on a digital copy! I'm fine with paying for stuff at gamesworkshop! But I dont want digital copies I prefer to hold what I buy Im just very fussy its me! And I am in the digital age! But I just dont like digital copies I own all by albums on cd and copy them to computer.
Useful but for something like this subject a physical book is always nicer. But digital should ALWAYS be cheaper.
60 dollars is way too much for that plus like 55 for codex no way mate
there are android versions.....
Is it just me or is everybody on the fence about these
80-90% Profit margin!?!?! Jezzus, I still play but i havent bout a model in nearly 4 years from a shop because of prices.
Can you keep a tissue box handy next time? Lol
I think that the people at Games Workshop have gotten lazy and just don't care anymore
I agree that if you buy the hard cover book it should come with the ebook for free and have an option to pay like another $10-15 and upgrade the ebook to the interactive one.
I wouldn't buy a ebook codex but if they did it that way I would definitely upgrade and get the interactive version. As for the supplements $18 is way over priced I think maybe $8.99 as like a max price.
All these e versions are not going to replace hard cover. Are we going to have games where everyone brings there ipads and charges etc just to play a game. It's like ok here is my bag with my army in it and here's my other bag so I can have all my gadgets going so I can gland at a rule now n then.
What if you go to a gaming hall and your devise dies half way through a game what do u do just end the game n go home.
There handy to have but should come as standard with a hard copy.
Giving things away for free is a horrible business model. As an enticement it can be useful. Take a good look at your bits box and there you will see what free is. Sure you bought the models, sure you cannot always make every variant from a single kit. Free bits make free models, free models make happy modelers, happy modelers are happy customers, happy customers buy more models. This is a hobby it's not a necessity. It's actually a rather extravagant hobby considering how much we pay for plastic toys. That being said, if a heldrake were only $30 US and it still only cost GW $1.50 US to make, they would not sell ten times as many because there is a finite amount of 40K players and even less chaos space marines players. What there would be, and I'm very very sure about this, is a bunch of bitches on the internet crying about how it should be $25 US at the most!
When Napolean Hill, the Author of "Think and Grow Rich" went and interviewed all of the richest men in America, they every one told him "If you ever want to get rich, you must give things away". Some were in steel, others in automobiles and even others in railroads.
I started my first business in Graphic Design and didn't follow the rule. I still have my business but it isn't booming. I bought a second business a few years ago and after the first year of just "making it" I decided to follow the business guru's advice and started giving away my product every time I had an opportunity. My business has about tripled over the past 2 years from doing this. Giving things away for free, to an extent, is a great business model.
What's the last thing you remember getting for free from say, Hasbro or Mattel or Testors or 3M or xacto?
Eric French I bet if you owned a business that they wanted to sell their product through, you would get things from them free, at least to begin with. Check out BTP... people are sending them things free all the time. Game companies included. Why? Because they know BTP will show their stuff in battle reports and the like and because BTP shows their free stuff online, people go to their sites and buy them.
My food business, for instance. I can try to sell it all day long... but until people started getting Free samples, they didn't buy because who wants to spend money on food when they don't know the taste? We also give away all of our left over prepared food so it wont go to waste and I cannot tell you how much money or how many jobs we have picked up from those free giveaways.
I own my two businesses and my family owns an auto repair shop that was opened by my grand father in 1952. Napa, Auto Zone, O'Reilley, Bell bros and Advanced Auto all come weekly to GIVE us things they want us to sell so we can test them and start selling them.
Snap On Tools and MAC tools have trucks that come to our business weekly to show off new tools and devices and they actually GIVE us basic tools and sets hoping we'll buy the full versions or the complete sets. Giving a product away, especially a product like GW stuff that once you're hooked you keep expanding, is the best way to get careful shoppers and buyers to try your product.
Just like these guys at Mini Wargaming... Get a couple of bat reps from their story line with Nids vs Necrons... and then if you want the rest, you sign up to get into the vault where you can see the rest for a small fee. It's just plain good business. Read about Trumph also... Another great example.
A vendor comping some SWAG to a retailer is not the same. GW has a terrain program where they give local game clubs thousands of dollars worth of GW terrain in order to set up good gaming tables when a club runs events. That's not what I'm debating. I know business practices, Matthew wants IP for free to the masses of end users. It's like me saying that giving your leftovers away is not enough, every customer should get free appetizers every day. And you should send free appetizers to anyone who requests one. It is a horrible model and a crippling method of doing business. You're confusing free advertisement, which is built in to the cost of operations, to free IP. Mom and Pop shops are not the same as publicly held companies either.
Eric French We're clearly not going to agree on this. The greatest business men of the ages do not know what they're talking about apparently. You fail to mention all of the large businesses I name such as NAPA and Advanced Auto and Auto Zone which are nation wide and have no need to give things away to get "swag". They bring in millions a day and yet they're out there giving away their product and even their services to small companies to win favor and to show off their product. And yes, favor is a huge part of it. "Yes sir, just say you'll use our business and we'll give you free shipping and have stock men come out for free to fill your stock." Or Napa "Just put this sign up that says 'Napa Care Center' and we'll give you free batteries and free delivery service'".
Like it or not, it's been proven throughout the years that Free makes money. GW giving away the supplements online as downloads would cost them nothing more than the space on the server people are downloading it from and the time to make the supplement. However, it would build interest and people would be persuaded to buy models from them to play these supplements.
Ah and you mentioned 3M above. Yes, they gave us Brake Cleaner and Carb Cleaner for our business in hopes that we would stock it since we go through about a case of 12 a week. And you know what? We stock them both now.
I was very disappointed when I bought the Blood on the Snow. It was listed as a smaller scenario for fantasy so I was suspecting something to make armies field able in small points costs, notably Brettonia who have to take 2 characters no matter the points costs. nothing of the kind was in the book, just a few tables of upgrades you could get by fielding particular types of units, units that aren't even available universally.
the lack of thought put into the supplement put me off spending any more money. without a way to see the content first its difficult to know if its worth buying. It isn't so much the cost but the potential quality that puts me off, perhaps if there was a customer review option (or in the case of Blood on the snow if the writer had stopped to think about what they where doing).
Just as a note however; e reader versions are usually available for the basic supplements, and with and addon, can be viewed in browser
If you play competitively, how are you supposed to afford every codex and supplement. You need to know EVERY rule backwards.
How dare GW ask for money for things i want, robbing bastards!!! Please.......
to be honest I like the digital books. but as an owner of a non ipad tablet I whole do very much so believe that they are limiting their profits and are playing to much into the apple craze.
the model you are using for your economic theory has some strong assumptions like perfect information, no market power (a lot of sellers and a lot of buyers),... not to crack down your statements but I think GW is a monopoly ( for warhammer 40k)
Why don't you just download the rules from scribd or something like that it free as well.
a app for 60 is just to much for me
matt that is very misinforming I have sentinels of terra on my kobo
Matt, I really, really Miniwargaming channel and your batreps. But this review is really, really flawed, at least in one important part.
First of all, those dataslates and codices are not just for iOS (expect those pricier interactive), they are for Kindle (I have few of them there) and eReaders too, which means you can read those almost on every tablet. When you repeat the mistake "only for iOS, which is very limiting" its really wrong. Especially for potential customers - who are reason for review.
economics 101? there are a lot of SoB fans, ho wont play them, because its not relevant. The unofficial dex is something that brings them back to a somewhat competitive aspect, but they are more fun then really competitive, and then there is the one...that...gw...rele....THIS is NOT eco 101! Orks need a 6th ed dex, and they are pushing out grey knights?!
Sob need better models, more variety, DE need a new dex - glance to death, anyone? :P - ig need one to, and i am w8ing for my biel tan dex suplement...
black libery don't do digital coppy's
Of course they do. They have a whole page called Digital Editions..
Wow, hitting the haterade pretty hard, huh. I like the digital products a lot, myself. You might wAnt to a bit of research before you crack so hard on them. You pretty much want them to give away a digital product because you bought print product? Does that work real well in the store? Just the updates and enhanced links are worth the price. I have ditched print codices, no reason to have them any more. Heavy, outdated and they get tore up.
As far as beating up their QA process, have you watched your own vids? The music is so loud you can't hear the narrator... And you use the same crappy loops 50 times.
They are just publishing too much (print and digital).
I buy some models now and then if I like them, but it seems you have to give them some money every week to keep up to date.
They should just follow the Infinity model: charge people money for a nicely printed book and put all the info for free on the internet. And please, differentiate between nicely laid out fluff books that I want to keep, and minimal rulebooks that are obsolete within a few days.
If the only selling point of yet another publication is a new rule I NEED to play the game I'll pass. This starts to look more and more like the 'least publishable unit' in science.
So please GW: just produce stuff that is nice on its own, whether it is a nice looking model or a really nice book, but bugger off with all the paid for rules and other crap that will be obsolete within a few days.
Matthew, I appreciate the look at the products and the opinions but you have wandered over too many issues and conflated issues that have no real relation to each other.
Let's take two overriding issues you mention. First, cost: If you make the digital copies a lot cheaper than the physical versions then you drive down demand for the physical which then drives down the print runs which then, ultimately, leads to much higher costs for the print. So would it then be ok to say, "Well if you still want the print you have to pay a premium."? If so isn't that a bit like what is happening now in reverse? There is also the issue of larger digital sales then means fewer sales for hobby retailers.
Second, platform: This one is not really GW's fault. The current eBook market is a tough, confused place. Apple takes a flat 30% of the price the publisher chooses. Amazon forces a price/profit matrix on publishers that makes it very hard to make any money unless you have very high volume. I believe the Google Play store also takes 30% but I'm not positive. Now GW could do like they do with Black Library and just sell the .ePub versions (or even pdf) but they are probably rightly concerned about rampant piracy of such a move. Moreover, only Apple currently has the ability to have interactive editions unless you want to actually make the publication an app for iOS and Android. This is possible but has its own problems both for the publisher and the user and would drive up costs even more. So in the world of 40K where $50 models are the norm asking or expecting customers to get a $300 iPad 'accessory' doesn't seem all that crazy.
All of this will shake out in the coming years but this is one place where most of the issues are not GW problems but one of the publishing, tech and even IP industries as a whole.
Free rules: There is no such thing. Rules have to be developed, tested, written, designed, illustrated and published. This all takes quite a bit of time, effort and money. The question is do you want direct or indirect compensation for them? GW could put them all up on a wiki for no cost but they would then have to raise the prices on other products to pay for them. This has at least one disadvantage of separating the costs from the income and thus the incentive to improve or increase the 'free' product. Now obviously the rules drive demand for the physical and other products but free would ultimately lead to lower quality rules production because there is no direct revenue. Why have a lushly illustrated ruleset if just text sells the models? Now this is not all a reason to not do free rules because there are other benefits but let's not think it is a decision without its own inherent problems.
Why do you have to worry about showing things.. isn't that covered under fair use for review purposes.. or are GW that stingy these days....