Jumping On The Old School Bandwagon 2: ALICE Packs!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- Jumping On The Old School Bandwagon 2: ALICE Packs! Folks, when you're basically a punk kid and enter the armed forces and you're issued your equipment, you stuff it in your duffle bag, keep your mouth shut an move on down the line. I never knew, nor did I honestly have a desire to know the history and development of the equipment I was issued. I looked to the wisdom of my NCOs to show me how to use it and eventually adapt it to my own uses.
This video will attempt to cover the information I have learned about the venerable A.L.I.C.E. Packs. It is a complicated and sorted history. The proper telling of which should fall upon better men than I.
Links:
www.vietnamgear...
www.gear-illus...
ciehub.info/in...
100 years from now folks will still be using ALICE.
It’s actually getting close to being a hundred year old system now. 🤣🇺🇸
The MOLLE and MOLLE II packs are bigger than the Alice packs that you showed here. When I was in the Rangers, we carried anywhere between 120#-150# of gear, so we needed the bigger packs to carry our gear. When I transitioned into the Reserves, I went and purchased a Alice large pack and used it to carry my gear, while everyone else was stuck using the medium packs. Several people asked me who’s ass I kissed to get a large pack while they were issued the mediums, and I told them that I went and purchased the large pack myself and carried the receipt to prove that I purchased the pack. Each pack has its own unique use, so you can tailor what equipment you want to carry in each pack for specific needs. But, physical fitness is important for using the larger field packs if you’re planning on using a larger field pack system.
Yeah no kidding, thing is huge, used to take two of us to load up one on a fellow trooper…your knee, hip, and back pain are not service connected 😂
I have a couple ALICE medium packs; one is on a LC-2 frame with a MOLLE waist pad and the later extra padding shoulder straps, the other has a MOLLE frame that is produced with the ability to fit the pocket of the medium pack, it has the MOLLE shoulder and waist straps and is the most comfortable to wear loaded. The local gun shop carries surplus gear and had 2 of the radio packs when I was there last, doubt they are there now. As for large pouches, the MOLLE sustainment pouches will fit on the sides of the bag in order to hold whatever fits. I found that the woobie will stuff right in, haven't tried it with the poncho and liner combined yet. For those that can conceal carry, the 200rd SAW pouch can take a compact 9MM. On my 782 gear with a few pouches for storage you would never know it's there.
I had one vest rig that contained a Glock 26 in a similar fashion.
Old school woodland and tiger camo is absolutely the best... although the multicam is great, nothing beats the woodland.... not to mention you dont have to deal with the loud ass velcro on everything 💯🇺🇲🦅
I used to run that old school cotton tiger strip stuff when I could find it locally. But the new reproduction stuff is okay but the ripstop fabric just isn't as breathable as the old cotton blend was in the summer heat.
I did not get the chance on your last video but you mentioned gear we were never issued. I was on working parties at both K-Bay and in Okinawa at the supply warehouse where we would be issued all of our gear. I seen all kinds of pouches and other add ons that were made specifically for the ALICE pack..I liked the large side pocket add ons, but we were never issued those, as to why?" I haven't any idea, I have not seen any of those on the surplus markets so my thinking is that all of the cool stuff is still probably languishing in those bins at supply I acquired that radiomans ALICE pack, it is definitely smaller than the medium ALICE, I use mine when hunting, it would make a great short range patrol pack...Excellent video.
Yeah I worked in a supply building out near the flight line loading some items for shipment during Desert Storm. I remember there was a metal cage that I had to get some gear from. There were knives, watches and all kinds of electronic gear. I kinda thought it was probably stuff for recon because never saw it elsewhere.
That early frame is part of the P68 tropical rucksack system that used a lightweight nylon rucksack, similar looking to the later LC1 ALICE but much shorter than the LC1 and with no frame sleeve, we would sometimes attach two of these nylon packs to a frame along with just about anything else a man could carry LOL...the P68 and earlier P64 frames were used throughout the vietnam war...woods
I was issued the LC2 frame with LC1 medium ruck with non locking straps as 11B/19D, but I always brought my own modified OD Green large ruck. I still use one with aftermarket camo shoulder straps and waist pad that wraps around and has molle straps on it, to which I mounted a radio pouch on one side and a dump pouch that fits a big Nalgene bottle on the other side. With the new straps/pad it carries like a dream, so comfy, and plenty of airflow to the back unless I put a folded insulated tarp there. I put two 2qt canteens on the sides, I never liked the TRADOC load plan for the ruck. We used to carry the ruck to our patrol base, then do patrols with the beefed up LBE set up you described in the previous video, still works well
Did you ever notice that the nametags sewn above the pockets were actually visible/reflective with IR light during at least the mid-70s?
Great video! The first aid pouch works great as extra storage on the frame of this pack, fills the void behind the kidney pad and is easy to attach using the Velcro on the back of the ifak to wrap around the vertical frame stay. Then thread a piece of paracord through the grommets on the bottom of the pouch and tie it around the shallow v shaped support near the bottom of the frame 👍
Thanks for explaining the uses of the cargo straps - I only thought they were used to attach heavy/bulky items to pack frame when not using the alice pack. Great old school video.
They can be used for that.
Two of the modern pieces to use for a ruck are the Raptor Tactical (EurekaMolding) PALICE polymer frame and the Tactical Tailor Superstraps/belt.
Killer collection and a solid description of this old but very useful gear!
I kind of miss my old med ruck/frame and cargo straps, I recently bought the M81 Radio pack though and I have to say that I like the smaller size. It will hold my poncho liner and individual camouflage netting in the interior pocket and the main compartment will hold my bivy bag cover, a couple of magazine bandoliers with room to spare. And the outside pockets will hold the usual stuff… canteens, MRE’s, gloves and etc.
Brother John! So happy to see you paying a deserved homage to the honorable ALICE pack! My first piece of military surplus as far as backpacks go was not this one at all. I first purchased the MOLLE II ruck when they were going for an easy $50 including 2 sustainment pouches. I was never in the military so I had to learn all my mistakes all by my lonesome, and one of the first lessons I learned was something about myself, not my pack. I'm the kind of guy that loves to be prepared, and if I have room something the MOLLE II pack offers, dang it I will fill that void! It's a HUGE pack, and I would stuff everything I thought I might ever possibly need in it... and then try to put it on. There was NO dang way I could carry it to my car, let alone go bushwacking with it on my back. So I thought I try something a little different and go with what I thought was a lesser and kind of old POS I didn't think I'd like very much, but I tried that large ALICE ruck with a frame and boy was I surprised! I fell in love with it immediately, AND I learned to start training myself to find dual purposes for things. Of all the packs I have now, my Large ALICE is my absolute favorite to take out in the woods with me. I do like my MOLLE II, it's a beast, and I even have the assault pack that attaches to it, haha! I like the assault pack by it's lonesome, I will never attach the two together as they were meant to be because my old, tired body ain't built for it anymore. But I learned so much by purchasing the MOLLE II pack first and that is I WILL take stuff I don't absolutely need just because I have room. What I double or triple up on and feel totally justified in doing so is fire-starting sources and water or at least water purifying elements. I'll easily trim out all of the luxury items for a 4lb 1/2 gallon of clean drinking water. Water is the lube that keeps the body in motion and if it's between taking that super nice tent along or making do with a tarp and extra water, I'll take the water and make do, but that's just me. Now, there was one pack system you showed on here maybe a year ago, and I thought it was the bees knees. It had a regular central pack, and from that two narrow side packs flanked it, and depending on how much kit you had with you could kind of fold those narrow sides around the front and latch them together... I don't know if I am explaining it correctly. It's not really a well known system and I don't think you can get them anymore, but I found it so interesting that I made something similar that utilized a Large ALICE frame. So over the ALICE frame is just a panel that has PALS system top to bottom, and that's it's most basic configuration, being that you can just stick anything MOLLE all over it, pouches galore if that's what you need. Also there's a regular 12x20x6" main pack that can attach to that MOLLE membrane on the frame. Then there are two narrow but 20" tall side pouches that can hinge on the frame to flank the main pack and be brought together like doors over the main pack if needed. Anyway, I'll have to just email you some pictures of it because I'm likely not explaining it right. YOUR super-cool-once-in-a-lifetime-find totally got my creative juices flowing, and it couldn't have worked out better. Funniest damned thing is, if you told me I'd spend good money on a sewing machine and getting off sewing stuff, I'd have called you a damned liar and "thems fighting words!", haha! Man, I've made so much cool stuff just because I need it like tomorrow or I can't find exactly what I want so I make it, instead. It's become one of my favorite things to do! Well, I've written a book when a few lines probably could've done it. I'll try to take some pics soon and email those off to you to show you what I was talking about. When you see you'll probably know exactly the rare find of yours I was talking about. Hey, I'll trade you the Jolly Green Hulk pack for it, HAHAHA! See ya later, bro. Be awesome and keep the cool vids coming!
At Camp Lejeune you were given large Alice to carry the M47 Dragon night tracker.
There were two radio packs. The one you got there, and another one. The other one, the camo, was lighter, and there was extra padding in the back of them. I Forgot what it was called. It's in my storage locker. I bought it new old stock. Good find. That other pack I got from armynavy outdoors and had a hole in it, so I took out the radio compartment in it. I know sacrilege, but it's rather shabby as it was. I also got a medium irr irregular pack never issued, the pass through on top of the three compartments were sewed shut. Been trying to collect what I can before it's too late.
Good night from Wisconsin.
Oh you forgot the three d links in the medium pack the od green one, right below the radio pouch. That's so you could tie up the bottom of the pack and make it smaller. They stop doing that on the camouflage one.
I wouldn't say you're Jumping on the Bandwagon, I'd say you are covering this gear more in-depth than alot of people!
You have answered questions that I've had for certain pieces of gear that I never knew before.
Thanks so much!
👍
Hi, looks like you got it mixed up a bit. The rounded frame was never used with an ALICE pack. Here are some info from the book: American Web Equipment 1967-1991 by C.A. Monroe and Craig Pickrall, published 2012.
The frame was first introduced in 1962 together with the lightweight rucksack (designed for alpine and arctic use). The ruck was the replacement for the old cotton duck made M1952 rucksack. The first frames of the lightweight rucksack were welded (ALICE frames were rivetted!) and the first waist belt had a Davis buckle and a wide strap (like the pistol belts). In 1965 they started to rivet the frame and the wide waist belt with Davis buckle was replaced by the narrow strap with the quick release(like in your video). The whole system was cancelled on July 19, 1973. (reference from p. 6-7)
Now the ALICE was standardized in late 1973, there is no size difference between an LC1 and an LC2. The only differences were the non-slip spring buckles being replaced in 1979 by standard non-slip buckles (AKA steel tri-glides), a small name card holder covered by a transparent nylon "window" which also dissapeared and the radio-pack modification with three d-rings and three para cord pieces to tie the bottom part up when used as a radio carrier. There were three generations of shoulder straps and three generations of waist belts. And in 1987 they started manufacturing the medium field pack also with woodland camuflage pattern nylon (reference from p. 30-49)
Another good source for Vietnam era gear is this: www.vietnamgear.com/equipment.aspx?cat=8
Here is an online site for ALICE development: military-history.fandom.com/wiki/All-purpose_Lightweight_Individual_Carrying_Equipment
But the best reference is still the book I mentioned. One of the authors was also the founding member of US Militaria Forum, here are the ALICE related topics: www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/search/&q=ALICE&quick=1&type=forums_topic&item=18196
Keep up the good vids!
Greetings from Switzerland
Chris
Damn it man! Got me having them flashbacks again lol, got 2 of them! Still "Ruck march" every now and then !
Mr Timms out here still dropping knowledge bombs!
I have always found ALICE nylon to be super durable and i prefered it. I prefered this material over the Cordura type used later on. The codrura in MOLLE system is light but it sucks - ou can easly pull out whole Nexus clip with attachment or snaps. I have one large cordura pack (Bergen type - long backpack) but its heavier type cordura and yes its durable but even when the pack is empty is super heavy. I could not find compromise. I have one modified ALICE pack (medium) and this Bergen type pack but it's a Frankenstein. I have sewn this attachment strap (from a worn out Alice pack) on top of it (remember Lowe Vector LCS84? :P ). I use two large detachable cargo pockets but as in ALICe pack you can put things under it. You can hang E-tool on the strap or machete or a knife. Side pockets are modern Blackhawk type - Small Cargo pouches which are pre-packed for a Beltkit setup. The hip belt is also detachable "pistol belt". So I can quickly remove it, attach low profile Hharness with Fastex, attach the pouches from the pack (whatever needed) and use it for patroling around camp. On top of the large pack i have one Helikon Claymore bag pre-packed for E&E Essentials - use it as a buttpack on the belt when patrolling or as essetial insert for a smaller 20L pack so its quick to get ready. --- LOL BTW. I still use ALICE frame with shelf and cargo straps to carry stuff. One day I went to a mart for a coffee machine, bought it, packed whole box on the frame with cargo straps. Clerk was like WTF? then me looking at him "No worries. This is LIGHT infantry old-school stuff. You're too young"
LOL! Have you tried carrying a 20 liter jerry can with alice pack frame and it's shelf? That is a badass combo.
Cordura is nylon. I think the problem you were having was with different fabric weights. There are 250D, 500D, 1000D, etc. 1000D is like seatbelt durable, it's what many packs use.
@@xc8487 Yup. The cordura type used in my mountain pack is heavier and super durable - not sure whats the denier value on it. All straps and snaps are intact , I've used it heavy loaded over the years in different conditions even with "sharp" edge items inside. But the type used in Army Molle gear just sucks - plus its "waterproofed" with something on the inside which after few years is smelly and sticks. To be fair that waterproof layer on the Alice and especialy Alice "drybags" is the same crap LOL I had one old dry bag when I opened it i almost puked inside - it smelled like a dead racoon covered in manure LOL hahaha.
@@SgtMcCullin "Light" infantry LOL
The "little hooks" are called M1910 wire hangers
Frames were especially used in winter to keep you from sweating…it says so in the manual somewhere. I’m old and don’t remember. Sure had one of those medium for over 20 years.
I completed my basic training with an LC1 in 2006... I still believe its way better than the modern crap although i do prefer a modern waist pad/strap
Tactical Tailor makes extra padded straps and belts. You can also get a modern polymer frame from Raptor Tactical.
Dear Mr Boonedockey I still have all my equipment from when I was in the Military in 1979 to 1981. And my pack is identical to the LC 1
Thanks for sharing this video. Very interesting!!!
Always enjoy talking gear, especially ALICE, as that’s what I settled on, a little over a decade ago - I think. When the bug -out graze really got going, but “ gray man “ wasn’t a thing yet.
I got medium OD green, but, I saw a video where a guy showed that the medium ALICE in camo only though, had a built in modification to enable user to turn into basically a radio carrying bag. Evidently, the medium camo only has some stings/cordage at bottom of the large compartment that allows for folding and cinching bottom section. The result being literally the smaller ALICE. Pretty slick. Thought you may find interesting. I don’t know squat, but I try to pay attention. Sure appreciate maaaan. Thanks
Hi mate. I didn't no they was so much different between the rucksacks. Thanks for the show an tell. 👍😎
my medium lc-1 is still my favorite piece of surplus gear
The radio pack is the same size as a medium. The contracts were as late as 2006 and a bunch of new ones are available on EBay for less than a hundo. Decent value,
Great job my friend…👍🏻
Very informative and interesting…
Thanks so much for sharing…‼️
Stay Strong 💪🏻 Brother 👍🏻🪖🇺🇸
I really appreciate you and your info
OV Innovations has a few items to make the ALICE more friendly, like buckle and strap conversions and such.
Great review! Haven't seen any videos as detailed and complete on all the ALICE pack variations. Recently picked up a 'new' condition medium pack and a good used one. Good condition 'real' ALICE pack frames are damn hard to come by though and well built aftermarket ones are upwards of $180! Might use the MOLLE medium ruck plastic 'horseshoe' just to give the medium some structure and allow some air flow. I'm not one to go humping the hills with a 80 lb. pack these days anyway!
I personally love the Alice Pack
Thank you, very interesting. I have an olive green medium Alice with a green frame which I have modded with the woodland curved shoulder straps, a woven paracord grip handle, cammy rear back pad, cammy flat bungees, cable tied brown illumination flare main container on one side and my extrema ratio short kukri on the other. The z fold mat is underneath. I have a large dry bag for the main compartment. I have two two quart compressible water containers, which can attach to the side straps. I like the pass through pouches a lot. I like the fact that I can also attach a US or German entrenching tool, which I consider as an essential items for every soldier to carry.
I also like woodland cammy BDU' s for certain terrain and seasons. It was and still is an excellent design. I have a normal BDU' jacket, not raid modded, and a heavier one for colder weather, large enough to go over my netwebbing and still close. Cannot get any BDU' trousers here though, so usually just use olive green or Kalahari sand or nutria.
In South Africa we prefer framed packs, as they are stronger and have airflow for areas of the back, and in general can pack more contents as we normally do long range patrols due to the greater distances and the need to carry more water. I also have some larger framed SA military packs for longer patrols.
Thanks again, as usual a well researched and well presented presentation. The USA is lucky to have you, I would have liked to have had you on my team back in the bush war days!
Stay safe and may God bless you and your family. You should still be serving, so that you could sort out all of the nonsense currently going down in the USA military!
What is the NSN number of the small Radio Bag?
Great gear. I have some myself
Awesome Video!
Sounds like Sarge Vining on this history.
I'll never get rid of my alice. The prices now are up there most places they want over $100. Got mine for $30. brand new minus the supply guys name on it, but that was 8 years ago hehe.
I bought a MARPAT camo alice pack in the UK. Not 100% sure if it's legit...but apparently there was a contract that failed for an old Eastern European country & these things are dirt cheap. It's a decent pack & i love it. I use various old British Army bergens from WW2 through to the GS Bergen (definitely a shite copy of alice) i also use old British 44 pattern bags but none of them are comfortable! That's not the point, when I'm out & about I want to be styling! I'm too old to yomp a hundred miles, so I just collect & use for the fun of it on a short hike!...
Was told a lot of your guys unstiched the 3 mag pouches on the large alice & created a larger pouch as a field modification?...if this is the case I'm doing the same..I'm in the UK don't need mag pouches but I reckon a tarp would fit nicely if I adapted the space!
Did I detect homage to “Some People” lol
YES!!!!!!!!!
What do you think of the Armys new MOLLE 4k, it looks like it went back to the ALICE style with that.
Hey, info very good. Dressing up like you're still in the military 40 years ago, eh?
Thanks for sharing this video. Very interesting!!!
We still have platoons sign for the “Alice” medium ruck radio pack. I’m also a Cav Scout and about to retire. I still use the large Alice, I hated the molle generation. They recently came out a with a modern version of the Alice to issue guys. It’s in the new OCP pattern. Has the same pouch layout. What’s old is new again. As always love your videos and god bless ya. Scouts Out!
How is the "new" medium molle ruck? I heard the Army guys like it.
@@SSN515 it’s not bad, I’d change a few things on it but it’s honestly pretty comfortable to carry.
@@1986coldsteel Thanks for the reply. What would you change?
@@SSN515 I would add a mesh of bungee style pouch directly on the sides so u can store a pack cover or canteen without having to molle something onto it. I’d also make a slightly bigger kidney pad. I’d make a split compartment option between the top and bottom. Just to separate directly needed from not needed. I think the bigger outside bottom pouch should be removed and just used as additional space for the main compartment.
Great demo on the ALICE cargo straps. I never saw those while on AD. We always used the bungee cords that Clothing Sales sold. Way easier to use and made living out of the Big Green Tick a little “nicer”. I currently use an LC-2 Woodland camo medium ALICE pack mounted to a MOLLE frame. Makes for a great 3-day pack.
killlller video!!! learned a lot i didn't know to add to my ALICE pack addiction...awesome brother (:
I had a really nice camo alice pack I aquired upon leaving the Marines. When I left the arng in 98 I turned it in and kept the green one.. still kickin myself
I think the 'small alice" was erroneously referencing the original cotton canvas two pocket arvn pack. My dad still has his and always called it an alice pack but also would tell you how he took it off a dead arvn soldier.
good vid ,thx