@MrKittles1123 Basically the biggest difference between 5/8 and 5/4 would be the "speed" in which you hear the beats, though that's a strange way to put it. By that I mean that a usual 5/4 time will actually feel like there are 5 distinct beats per measure. 5/8 actually gives on the sensation of being in a lop sided 6/8 time in which one doesn't really feel the 5 separate beats, but more like the 2 beats of 6/8 with one beat slightly shorter.
good lesson! I have limited knowledge in musical theory, but from my experience experimenting with odd time signatures really gets your ideas more dynamic & interesting!
Quite often people take something "not so complicated" and complicate it with their extensive knowledge. Simply stated, the top number of a time signature is the number of beats to count in the measure. The bottom number is the note value used to count those beats. So...for a 7/8 ts, count 7 beats in 8th notes. For 5/4, count 5 beats using quarter notes, etc.
Thank so much man been trying to understand this and you just put it so clearly,probably because your a drummer and deal with different time signatures all the time.
chris waters Glad it makes sense. Now, spend a few weeks just listening and counting times. You will no longer be intimidated by time signatures...they are actually quite fun to play.
one of my favorite examples of this is a piece I played in high school called "Vesuvius" by Frank Ticheli. It definitely has parts where you can clearly hear the odd time signatures and how they work.
Yay Cheers Andrew. Once again an awesome lesson. The rest of you guys should support him in every way you can. Give his videos thumbs up, look at his website and subscribe. He is amazing for putting this up for free!
@freak49 The 8 in the bottom of the 6/8 time signature means that the 8th note gets the beat. Quarter notes do not always get one beat. The time signature SAYS which note gets one beat. So for example in 3/2 time the half note would get 1 beat....
The difference between 6/8 and 3/4, is that hypothetically you could think of/see them as being very similar because of the grouping of their beats. The difference would be how you would count them, or how they would FEEL. For example here is how you would count them (large letters mean a strong accent) 3/4: one, two, three; one, two, three (with no difference in accent or feel) as opposed to... 6/8: ONE, two, three, FOUR, five, six (can you see the difference?) Hope this helps.
@leopower7 All you should need is heavy strings. Grab something like a .60 on bottom and a .52 on the 5th. It's possible the action will change so just keep an eye on that.
@ixcaliber It has to do with the phrasing. In most cases 2/4 and 4/4 WILL sound the same, but say one is writing a 3 bar phrase in 2/4. If you wrote the same thing in 4/4 your starts of measures would start to begin on beat 3 rather than beat 1. This is easier to see in classical music. But there are also cases where a piece COULD have been written in 4/4 and its not easy to see why 2/4 was picked instead. Sometimes it gives a "visual" guide in how to accent the beats as well...
@leopower7 You won't have damage, no worry there. But take a look at the action (better yet, a picture) before and after you detune. It might need adjustment, might not. It's possible it could bow a little. Again, no damage, but your strings might be a little closer to your fretboard. You will have to adjust intonation though, but that's quite easy.
@Theoanthropologist i usually think of 6/8 as counting quavers (or 8th notes as americans call them), whereas with 3/4 you would count crotchets (quarter notes), but like you said, how they feel is important as well (although i usually accent the first beat in 3/4, and i count 6/8 with a triplet feel, but that's just me)
@Mayokitty7 A group of classical pieces called "Sept Gnossiennes aka Seven Gnossiennes" (nobody knows what a gnossienne is) by Erik Satie. You can easily count the time signature, but the sheet music is written without bars!
Look into french baroque harpsichord music. Specifically the preludes of Couperin for example as they are written without time signature. (Or indeed without time value for notes)
Not sure why people are saying "free time," that refers to tempo, not meter. In free time patterns and accent are still all there. I've heard it called "serrated time," but I don't know if that's a technical term. It's extremely rare, because it's extraordinarily difficult to write or play without slipping into familiar patterns. Messiaen wrote some time signature free movements in his named "Quartet for the End of Time" There are still those familiar patterns -though they're very well hidden.
@freak49,well, 6/8 could be written as 3/4. At which point 2 dotted quarters would be correct. I hope that's what he's doing. Or maybe I'm way off... I'm kind of new to this.
@sickthing72 Money is definitely 7/8 for the main riff/verse. Probably one of the most awesome songs IMHO to practice a different time signature to. I personally count accents on 1, 3 and 7.
Buy a Dream Theater guitar tab book. Every song they write have alternating regular and odd meters throughout. It is truely amazing. Also check out Symphony X as they have many odd meter and alternating meter songs.
@MrKittles1123 I think it really depends on how you wanna write up a piece... how do you want to feel it... it depends on context... for example... you can write a passage in 11/8... or you could write it in 6/8 + 5/8...
@Mayokitty7 well it does exist, i don't really know how that is called though. I ve recently worked in the studio on an instrumental track without following any time signature, kind of experimental guitar stuff. I think the only way to really make a song with no tempo is when it is going to be totally free form. you can see the video in my channel called "asleep", just to give u an idea of how a song without time signature can sound like!
Ok I don't expect anyone to respond to this, but my biggest hangup in understanding time signatures is like, the denominator. Basically, what is the difference between 5/4 and 5/8? It's defined as quarter notes and eighth notes getting one beat in each respective context, but I don't understand how quarters and eighths-being two different types of note-can both be used as the denominator in a time signature. Is the only difference counting eighths twice as fast?
@ledzeprocks21 They feature elements of math rock, so yes you are correct. But I was speaking a little more generally, as most math rock I've encountered features odd time signatures. But I appreciate you correcting me.
Check out some TOOL songs too if you like some hardrock with odd time signatures (they use it a lot e.g. "Lateralus"). Bands like "Dream Thearer" also like to change the time signatures in their songs from time to time. Obviously there are a lot more bands out there...
Typically the sub is a power of 2. 2^0 = 1 2^1 = 2 2^2 = 4 2^3 = 8 2^4 = 16 It's because we're talking about how many times we're dividing a whole note in half to give the beat to.
I seem to recall that Balkan/Turkish music doesn't traditionally use "time signatures," per se, but has "long beats" and "short beats" put together. EG: 7/8 would be 1 "long beat" as a downbeat (123) and two "short beats" (12-12) following or vice-versa. Is that correct?
@hanzimaster alright well then when it comes to what you hear, what is the different between 2/4 and 4/4 or 3/8 and 6/8? its just double, so wouldnt it sound the same except technically faster?
Think that in odd meter you have a regular pulse that cycles around ab odd number. Just like in even meter you have a regular pulse that cycles around an even number. For instance, a 5/8 (for example) would not feel as 5/8 if the pulses are not equally spaced. Just the same way 4/4 would not feel like 4/4 if the pulses are not equally spaced. I hope this helps and do not confuse you even more.
I'm still a beginner in most of this, but isn't Money by Pink Floyd also one of the more popular songs that uses an odd time signature? It's 7/8 time (except for the solo portion which is 4/4). I think that the beat count is 2-2-3, but I'm not certain... the bass riff sounds to me like it could have two different starting points. Like I said... "beginner". lol!
plzzz helpppppppp i wanted to know abt 6/8 time signature tht when he is saying that upper beat have got 8 beats put when he is counting it its only 6 how can it be 6...???? can any one tell me over here?
This is when i was so glad that both sides of my brain work together well. So many members of our HS band had a heck of a "time" learning this stuff. Felt so bad, but also frustrated sitting there going over and over stuff i understood in like ten seconds. Of course, that was true for most classes until i got lost from daydreaming, LoL
I feel like I would be able to figue most of this our on my own if i knew what makes a quart note a quart not as opposed to a half or an eight. I get that some are shorter and some are longer, but how long or how short, what do you measure the length of the note by. It does not seem to be absolutely time.
"Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten."
How to make sense of odd time signatures? Simple, practice playing in them. Western music is so rooted in 4/4 time that by the time you make it to the point in your musical career where you want to explore other signatures, 4/4 is ingrained so deeply in your head it's tough to hear grooves in anything but. Listen to music that's in odd times and really focus on the rhythm of the piece. The more you acclimate yourself to the time, the less you tend to focus on the time itself, and the less confused you are when you try to count outside of your "comfort zone". It's the difficulty in escaping this comfort zone that I think turns a lot of people off to the idea of writing in odd times. To them I say nay! Keep on math rockin my brothers, and fuck those who say music should be in 4/4 only
Exactly! I've been a rock fan for years, and always came up with melodies and stuff in my head, but these melodies where always basic and simple. Having 4/4 ingrained on my brain became quite an annoyance once I got into progressive rock (which is a lot more... complicated), and wanted to create more complex rhythms but could only feel rhythm in 4/4; I only managed to accidentally write something in 6/[4 OR 8] after learning 3 different Tool songs, all of which rarely enter the "C" (as its known) time signature.
hello andrew, thanks for your lesson but i still can't understand how to count beat's and tempo individually.for example if we count 11/8 time we are counting the 8th beats but how to count tempo(quarter beat)and if we count 6/8 how to conclude that it's 6/8 or 3/4.I'm confused, please help me....
Music without time signatures doesn't really exist. Everything has a beat, even if you have to subdivide down to 32nd notes. If there is no consistent pattern, the time signature changes from measure to measure. As much as people would like music without a time signature to exist, it simply cannot.
Great lesson!! Honestly, it was easy to understand, good work. Thanks for the heads up on Brubek and Ellis.
Great info. I've always loved unusual time signatures. You explain things well.
@MrKittles1123 Basically the biggest difference between 5/8 and 5/4 would be the "speed" in which you hear the beats, though that's a strange way to put it. By that I mean that a usual 5/4 time will actually feel like there are 5 distinct beats per measure. 5/8 actually gives on the sensation of being in a lop sided 6/8 time in which one doesn't really feel the 5 separate beats, but more like the 2 beats of 6/8 with one beat slightly shorter.
good lesson! I have limited knowledge in musical theory,
but from my experience experimenting with odd time signatures really
gets your ideas more dynamic & interesting!
Quite often people take something "not so complicated" and complicate it with their extensive knowledge. Simply stated, the top number of a time signature is the number of beats to count in the measure. The bottom number is the note value used to count those beats. So...for a 7/8 ts, count 7 beats in 8th notes. For 5/4, count 5 beats using quarter notes, etc.
Thank so much man been trying to understand this and you just put it so clearly,probably because your a drummer and deal with different time signatures all the time.
chris waters Glad it makes sense. Now, spend a few weeks just listening and counting times. You will no longer be intimidated by time signatures...they are actually quite fun to play.
ok,thanks for the advice will practice that now.
Thank you. I always turn to your videos and lessons for higher advanced learning.
one of my favorite examples of this is a piece I played in high school called "Vesuvius" by Frank Ticheli. It definitely has parts where you can clearly hear the odd time signatures and how they work.
Finally a clear explanation, thank you so much !
Thank you so much man. Have been struggling to understand meter in a college class I'm in and you explained it so well. Awesome.
The best explanation of odd meters I've seen.
Yay Cheers Andrew. Once again an awesome lesson. The rest of you guys should support him in every way you can. Give his videos thumbs up, look at his website and subscribe. He is amazing for putting this up for free!
@freak49 The 8 in the bottom of the 6/8 time signature means that the 8th note gets the beat. Quarter notes do not always get one beat. The time signature SAYS which note gets one beat. So for example in 3/2 time the half note would get 1 beat....
The difference between 6/8 and 3/4, is that hypothetically you could think of/see them as being very similar because of the grouping of their beats. The difference would be how you would count them, or how they would FEEL. For example here is how you would count them (large letters mean a strong accent)
3/4: one, two, three; one, two, three (with no difference in accent or feel)
as opposed to...
6/8: ONE, two, three, FOUR, five, six (can you see the difference?)
Hope this helps.
@Mayokitty7 It exist... I believe it's called Free form.
Some songs doesn't have steady pulse, therefore no time signature. Such as Gregorian chant.
@leopower7 All you should need is heavy strings. Grab something like a .60 on bottom and a .52 on the 5th.
It's possible the action will change so just keep an eye on that.
@ixcaliber It has to do with the phrasing. In most cases 2/4 and 4/4 WILL sound the same, but say one is writing a 3 bar phrase in 2/4. If you wrote the same thing in 4/4 your starts of measures would start to begin on beat 3 rather than beat 1. This is easier to see in classical music. But there are also cases where a piece COULD have been written in 4/4 and its not easy to see why 2/4 was picked instead. Sometimes it gives a "visual" guide in how to accent the beats as well...
Dwight Shrute might like this lesson considering it's about beets.
(Seriously great lesson, learned alot!)
@leopower7 You won't have damage, no worry there. But take a look at the action (better yet, a picture) before and after you detune. It might need adjustment, might not. It's possible it could bow a little. Again, no damage, but your strings might be a little closer to your fretboard.
You will have to adjust intonation though, but that's quite easy.
@Theoanthropologist i usually think of 6/8 as counting quavers (or 8th notes as americans call them), whereas with 3/4 you would count crotchets (quarter notes), but like you said, how they feel is important as well (although i usually accent the first beat in 3/4, and i count 6/8 with a triplet feel, but that's just me)
@Mayokitty7 A group of classical pieces called "Sept Gnossiennes aka Seven Gnossiennes" (nobody knows what a gnossienne is) by Erik Satie. You can easily count the time signature, but the sheet music is written without bars!
A great band that uses strange time signatures is rush. They, and King Crimson, perfected it.
Look into french baroque harpsichord music. Specifically the preludes of Couperin for example as they are written without time signature. (Or indeed without time value for notes)
Not sure why people are saying "free time," that refers to tempo, not meter. In free time patterns and accent are still all there. I've heard it called "serrated time," but I don't know if that's a technical term. It's extremely rare, because it's extraordinarily difficult to write or play without slipping into familiar patterns. Messiaen wrote some time signature free movements in his named "Quartet for the End of Time" There are still those familiar patterns -though they're very well hidden.
@freak49,well, 6/8 could be written as 3/4. At which point 2 dotted quarters would be correct. I hope that's what he's doing. Or maybe I'm way off... I'm kind of new to this.
A very very helpful video, audibly and vsually helpful I believe.
@sickthing72 Money is definitely 7/8 for the main riff/verse. Probably one of the most awesome songs IMHO to practice a different time signature to. I personally count accents on 1, 3 and 7.
Buy a Dream Theater guitar tab book. Every song they write have alternating regular and odd meters throughout. It is truely amazing. Also check out Symphony X as they have many odd meter and alternating meter songs.
@Mayokitty7
Rush. They'll do it without you noticing. Try Red Barchetta.
Or, if you prefer you could try Transatlantic
@MrKittles1123 I think it really depends on how you wanna write up a piece... how do you want to feel it... it depends on context... for example... you can write a passage in 11/8... or you could write it in 6/8 + 5/8...
@Mayokitty7 well it does exist, i don't really know how that is called though. I ve recently worked in the studio on an instrumental track without following any time signature, kind of experimental guitar stuff. I think the only way to really make a song with no tempo is when it is going to be totally free form. you can see the video in my channel called "asleep", just to give u an idea of how a song without time signature can sound like!
Awesome explanation! It's all learning to count all over again ;)
Ok I don't expect anyone to respond to this, but my biggest hangup in understanding time signatures is like, the denominator. Basically, what is the difference between 5/4 and 5/8? It's defined as quarter notes and eighth notes getting one beat in each respective context, but I don't understand how quarters and eighths-being two different types of note-can both be used as the denominator in a time signature. Is the only difference counting eighths twice as fast?
Really helped. Thanks for a clear explanation
@ledzeprocks21 They feature elements of math rock, so yes you are correct. But I was speaking a little more generally, as most math rock I've encountered features odd time signatures. But I appreciate you correcting me.
Check out some TOOL songs too if you like some hardrock with odd time signatures (they use it a lot e.g. "Lateralus").
Bands like "Dream Thearer" also like to change the time signatures in their songs from time to time.
Obviously there are a lot more bands out there...
@ixcaliber 6/4 is 6 quarters and 3/8 is 1(1/2) quarters
great lesson, very helpful. thank you!
@ProminentReborn i thought the difference was that you use eighth notes in 6/8 and quarters in 3/4?
Typically the sub is a power of 2.
2^0 = 1
2^1 = 2
2^2 = 4
2^3 = 8
2^4 = 16
It's because we're talking about how many times we're dividing a whole note in half to give the beat to.
I seem to recall that Balkan/Turkish music doesn't traditionally use "time signatures," per se, but has "long beats" and "short beats" put together.
EG: 7/8 would be 1 "long beat" as a downbeat (123) and two "short beats" (12-12) following or vice-versa. Is that correct?
@hanzimaster alright well then when it comes to what you hear, what is the different between 2/4 and 4/4 or 3/8 and 6/8? its just double, so wouldnt it sound the same except technically faster?
@freak49 I meant to say into 9 eight notes, which is longer than a bar (measure).
i have a question, when you say 5/8 meter in 123, 45 sub division shouldnt the notes 3 - 4 be more unevenly spaced then 123 or 45
Think that in odd meter you have a regular pulse that cycles around ab odd number. Just like in even meter you have a regular pulse that cycles around an even number. For instance, a 5/8 (for example) would not feel as 5/8 if the pulses are not equally spaced. Just the same way 4/4 would not feel like 4/4 if the pulses are not equally spaced. I hope this helps and do not confuse you even more.
Great explanation. Thanks, man!
I'm still a beginner in most of this, but isn't Money by Pink Floyd also one of the more popular songs that uses an odd time signature? It's 7/8 time (except for the solo portion which is 4/4). I think that the beat count is 2-2-3, but I'm not certain... the bass riff sounds to me like it could have two different starting points. Like I said... "beginner". lol!
Check out the progressive rock bands Tool and Porcupine Tree for really good examples of odd time signatures and polymeters that sound beautiful.
@hanzimaster so in other words the bottom number really has nothing to do with what you hear, its just how it is written?
you're a great teacher :)
@ixcaliber same thing just change the 8th note to a quarter
@hanzimaster That's 5/16. Just put it into it's respective noting.
plzzz helpppppppp i wanted to know abt 6/8 time signature tht when he is saying that upper beat have got 8 beats put when he is counting it its only 6 how can it be 6...???? can any one tell me over here?
thnks a lot that helps me understand better
damn right! Just listen to The Dance of Eternity or In The Presence of Enemies!
Extreme irony here. I have my old fender gdec on the taking five setting, and when you metioned the take 5 song, I just looked at my amp.
great, keep up with the good work!
This is when i was so glad that both sides of my brain work together well. So many members of our HS band had a heck of a "time" learning this stuff. Felt so bad, but also frustrated sitting there going over and over stuff i understood in like ten seconds. Of course, that was true for most classes until i got lost from daydreaming, LoL
i love the 7/8 time signature
I feel like I would be able to figue most of this our on my own if i knew what makes a quart note a quart not as opposed to a half or an eight. I get that some are shorter and some are longer, but how long or how short, what do you measure the length of the note by. It does not seem to be absolutely time.
@slashy04 And for much, much more odd meters to Meshuggah, but it´s not everyones music.
"Only after the last tree has been cut down, Only after the last river has been poisoned, Only after the last fish has been caught, Only then will you find that money cannot be eaten."
@hanzimaster soo... in other words 6/4 and 3/8 sound the same in the long run
Thank you helped me out so much :D
HOW MANY BARS A 4/4 MUSIC NOTE SHEET SHOULD HAVE?
Great video!
How to make sense of odd time signatures? Simple, practice playing in them. Western music is so rooted in 4/4 time that by the time you make it to the point in your musical career where you want to explore other signatures, 4/4 is ingrained so deeply in your head it's tough to hear grooves in anything but. Listen to music that's in odd times and really focus on the rhythm of the piece. The more you acclimate yourself to the time, the less you tend to focus on the time itself, and the less confused you are when you try to count outside of your "comfort zone". It's the difficulty in escaping this comfort zone that I think turns a lot of people off to the idea of writing in odd times. To them I say nay! Keep on math rockin my brothers, and fuck those who say music should be in 4/4 only
Exactly! I've been a rock fan for years, and always came up with melodies and stuff in my head, but these melodies where always basic and simple. Having 4/4 ingrained on my brain became quite an annoyance once I got into progressive rock (which is a lot more... complicated), and wanted to create more complex rhythms but could only feel rhythm in 4/4; I only managed to accidentally write something in 6/[4 OR 8] after learning 3 different Tool songs, all of which rarely enter the "C" (as its known) time signature.
@thedarkener Also SoundGarden and Rush.
you made this sound really hard.
Actually I'm pretty sure 7/4 and 7/8 are more common than 5/8 (if you consider those irregular)
@HitmanJenkins1 thats what you are meant to do
how do you count: [1(1/4)]/4
ok I am confused, what is the difference between 5/8 and 5/4.
hello andrew, thanks for your lesson but i still can't understand how to count beat's and tempo individually.for example if we count 11/8 time we are counting the 8th beats but how to count tempo(quarter beat)and if we count 6/8 how to conclude that it's 6/8 or 3/4.I'm confused, please help me....
***** i got it by now,but thanks for your explanation,it was helpful...
***** Thank You:-)
+mohammad rafi sa
oralrskandarani
+Rose Jamil ???
@Mayokitty7 That would be known as experimental music.
Can one do a 6/9 or 7/9 beat/signature
Those are mainly 4/4 but just with polymeter and polyrythyms
@ixcaliber the speed is the same
lol, we talked about irregular time signature yesterday in school :S how strangge
@ledzeprocks21 They're masters with polyrhythms though
So 3/4 is the same as 6/8 or am I wrong?
there are a few black sabbath songs that don't really have a time signature
there are WEIRD time signatures out there. the weirdest is ⅔/4. how is that possible?!
Also Tesseract and Periphery.
Tool works as well if you wanna get used to every odd aspect of music
@Mayokitty7 That's called Ameter
which songs
expecting all kinds of gains after some clean ass explanation here
Here’s an original solo bass composition of mine in 5/4.. Thank you for checking out!
th-cam.com/video/xfYnGbv4zWw/w-d-xo.html
Check out some mathrock. Tera Melos, The Fall of Troy, and Giraffes? Giraffes! are some great examples.
this was amazing
"you probably wouldn't have these in the same song... unless you are in meshuggah."
You can't play music without a time signature because there is a pattern in everything.
Ah, I stand corrected.
I think it's sad he didnt mention mathrock. Thats like pure odd tine signature madness
@gianma93 There's no such thing as 5/6 :O
Music without time signatures doesn't really exist. Everything has a beat, even if you have to subdivide down to 32nd notes. If there is no consistent pattern, the time signature changes from measure to measure. As much as people would like music without a time signature to exist, it simply cannot.
Free time. Eruption by Van Halen is an example. Eddie Van Halen is just soloing.
progressive jazz is just that :)
@slashy04 -- thats what I was listening to when I looked this vid up, lol
Another good example is "The Ocean" by Led Zeppelin.
@musicalman1995 i know ;)