Those etchings look absolutely stunning. The curvature, cross-guard-esque handguard and the hilt remind me of Shamshir. Thank you for covering the Mameluke. Edit: Heh! 5 mins you do cover the Shamshir! Haha! I should have been more patient. Thank you for the comparison.
@@Robert399 it does and it's a very nice, narrow one, fairly popular in central and north-east asia of high middle ages (and all the way into early modernity albeit everything was getting more curved and choppy then lol)
They do share the ancestry (i mean hungarian and turko-mongol sabres) Interestingly enough it's a very common shape (especially the thin yelman and low curvature) for yuan dynasty/mongol sabres. Tbh if you made the crossguard and langets shorter and more rounded it would look exactly like one famous yuan dynasty piece. i wouldn't be surprised if even the level of curvature was identical.
@@Sk0lzky Yuan Dynasty is much later. Magyars who were ancestors of modern Hungarians were an Ugoric-Turkic tribe. Their ruling tribe Arpad probably spoke Turkish. They came from the steppes around X. century. The origin of the Turkic sword were in the Altai region. That was the heartland of Turkic tribes. Altaic swords from the V-IX centuries are probably the origin of all those swords .
@@gursugursakal5601 they definitely wouldn't speak turkish, unless you're one of the people that call everything turkic "turkish" :v The rest I know, I just meant the general origin of the sword design
Napoleon really was into the mamelukes he even established a mameluke cavalry squadron in his imperial guard and had a mameluke bodyguard named Roustam Raza
Makes sense. Romans did something similar. Most of the cavalry auxilia were either Macedon or Numidian. And Memluks mixed both both Turkic and African native cavalry style.
I purchased a Saudi Arabian Officer's sword during the Persian Gulf War in 1991, and it's amazingly similar to that sword. The handle is brass over what I think is wood. It's hard to say for certain, as only a tiny glimpse of the scales under the brass is visible. The scabbard is also brass. Oddly enough, it comes with an insanely long tassled cord to use in ace of a sword belt. It was purchased from the military supply store on a Saudi base, and while the manager made certain I knew how it was supposed to be worn, I forgot years ago.
The sword was completely unsharpened, which being a novice in swords 30 years ago, I thought was a mistake from the smith. The man looked at me like I was crazy. He said he was neither my wife, nor son, and if I wanted my sword sharp either I or one of the aforementioned two would have to do it. It's still unsharpened to this day.
@@arx3516 if I had been an officer in the Saudi military, yes. He couldn't sell those swords to Saudi enlisted. American military were allowed to buy them regardless of rank. The manager was only used to dealing with men who purchased them for an actual component of their uniform.
I remember going to the Belford arms fair with my parents circa 1980 and seeing one , it was my birthday and my parents had agreed to match whatever money I'd saved, but this beautiful sword was still out of my league, but I did come away with the worlds heaviest Shin Gunto.
This remembers me the byzantine discussion about the origin and tipology of Jose de San Martin saber. He bought a second hand blade in London with the latest fashion. A blade like this.
I don't know about the British or French, but this is true in the case of American generals following US victory in the Barbary Wars, specifically the Battle of Derna in 1803.
Its like describing indian spiced tea as Chai.. Chai just means tea, so saying chai tea is saying tea tea, but we recognize that the word has a contextual meaning of tea as is typically made in an indian style. It is true of everything when words are co opted from other languages. A burrito is a food, no one considers it a small donkey.
@@PacMonster0 Except that is same, and calling all tea, chai, or "tea" is equally useless because there are as many varieties of tea as there are places that drink tea. Just like we will refer to someone who knows tea will simply call it chai, people who don't know call it chai tea, just like people will call it a Jian sword, or tulwar sword. Granted people who are as culturally unaware would probably call it a more generic term with racist undertones like a Samurai sword, or an indian sword. Which is as unhelpful to communicate to someone who is knowledgeable as simply calling it a curved sword or a one handed sword.
This actually reminds me of a sword of Mehmed II that was displayed in a historical museum in Istanbul. Maybe the designer took his inspiration from that.
Well, actually this slim and curved sword style first came to west with Turkic tribes, and quickly adopted by eastern cavalry. Turkic tribes that moved to Ummayyad territories named Mevali (means Freed Slave). Similar to how both early (most famous example Ariminus) and late Roman empire tried and failed, and how Ottoman empire tried and mostly failed, they gave children of minorities (Turkic and Farsian) to Arabic households. This Turkic people over the time became Memluk cavalry under Abbasid Empire, and suprise suprise, they overthrew monarch and decided to rule Egypt with oligarcy. What I mean is Turkic swords always have similar characteristics, the person designed this sword doesnt need to get inspired by that spesific sword. This sort of sword is pretty weak for swordmen but useful for light cavalry as secondary weapon and for gunpowder era infantry as sidearm.
If I understand correctly, the word kilij (or kiliç) refers to the more general curved eastern sword with the raised yelman, whereas the pala is a specific type of kilij, with that characteristic broad T-section blade for the first half and then that sudden bend (and sometimes a bit of a bulging belly).
Kilij (more correctly Kılınç) means sword in Turkic languages, so in those countries from Eastern Sabre to German Zweihander both called Kilij. As far as I know, Falcion to Scimitar both are called Pala in Turkey and suprisingly this type of broad swords are mostly used by early medieval europans.
@@hannibalburgers477 Ha! That fits kind of perfectly with "great big chopper" then. :oP Still, if I google "ottoman pala", I get mostly hits for a particular type of broad-bladed shamshir-like sword with a sudden bend and a T-section blade for the first half of it.
Many people have explained how the compiling of data for the two are different leading to the views always trailing behind and how the views typically lock at 300 for hours.
What a lovely piece, I've never heard of these, but I must say someone had a great taste. It combines one of my favourite blade profiles with the distinct middle-eastern hilt! It almost makes me wish I was a XIXc. british general >
Interesting as a badge of rank. The example you gave of the chap shown in pictures with 3 different swords. (1) the mameluke sabre, as a symbol of rank and authority (2) a conventional sabre of the time to show he was "one with his men", and (3) his old one from when he was a young officer, to make the point that he may be a general now, but he had paid his dues. I'm sure he chose these carefully to send those messages.
So who owned it? I can't imagine general officer's swords are that common, and I imagine they were private purchase. Do you know who originally owned this sword?
You should do a playlist, if you would like to, on different warrior castes , their weapons and armoury! I assume it will probably stick to more middle ages type stuff, ie, knightly orders, mamluks , samurai's, rajputs etc but would be amazing to hear about and maybe break some myths along the way too! such as all these people were very righteous or followed a code like don't hurt the unarmed etc, where in reality it would be free for all in wars, maybe im wrong? Just a suggestion!
I think you'd be disappointed because in most of the world throughout most of history gear wasn't really segregated in that way. It's always been either everybody buys the best gear they can afford or a government provides the most cost-effective gear it can get to as many people as possible. e.g. Knightly orders used the same gear as any other knight and any other rich soldier. Samurai used the same swords and spears and bows as everyone else in Japan. etc. Even between cultures, there's less variation than you'd think.
I love how cultures become intertwined within Empires , the late Byzantine infantry welded words highly similar to these ones due to their adaptation of the design after fighting campaigns in the ME and North Africa.
@Scholagladiatoria I think you may be mistaken when you say that you can discuss the influence of the British Mameluke sword while putting aside the American discussion. The Mameluke influence on the British sword is not something Britain got only from its battles with the French in Egypt. It is something that rubbed off on them from mixing with the United States Marine corps at Gibraltar station, and fighting the United States Marine corps in the War of 1812 too. That's where Britain got the idea of using the Mameluke saber. There is a discrepancy of whether or not the Mameluke was presented by Hamet Karamanli to Presley O'Bannon or if it was a Virginia State sword presented to O'Bannon in the style. I have seen good historical accounts for both. It's possible that both happened, or one and not the other. But it's obvious that it was a tradition in the United States Marine corps originating from the first decade of the 19th century.
Right :-) But it's about communication and in the collecting world we all know what a tulwar is and how a pulwar is different. And the difference between a shamshir and a kilij etc
I think that Shamshir actually means lions tail. However, words do change their meaning over time... Dracula once meant the dragon, but is today Demon for instance.
The united states officers sword was presented to lt.pressly o'Bannon by the pasha of tripoli in 1805 for the role the marines had in eradicating the barbary coast pirates it was the first presentation and issue of a mameluke sword to a western military power and is still listed as a weapon in the U.S. Marines arsenal.
Hi from UK Josh, though I recognised it, then your post. Always thought it strange, the best of us are sacrificed for the few, who look good but do nothing. I was told long ago, a thing of beauty is a joy forever.
@@joshuawelsh9022 That's what I was asking.. What's your point? Guessing at 0:47 "Let's leave US swords to one side" you had a conniption and just had to throw your US bit in there.. Staying on topic seems not one of your strong suits.
In a book by Wilkinson I have a photo of one of these swords which was actually fitted with a Wootz blade, probably Persian from the look. Obviously an officer who appreciated those blades had this made.
Great video again! Could you do a video on Turkish Alps and there fighting skills and weaponary at any point? Its an interesting topic and are always overlooked and forgotten.
With that raised false edge, I imagine the scabbard has to be an interesting shape inside. (More room above it, where the blade is narrower) Does it rattle?
Since you mentioned the kilic, I have some questions about the "heraldic scimitar", which usually resembles a VERY broad kilic. I wonder what's the broadest kilic you've ever seen and whether the "heraldic scimitar" matches anything in reality. Yes, I suppose a general's sword is more for costume jewellery than as a fighting sidearm. :)
When speaking other languages, do they use "sword" to refer to some kind of European sword like we use the word for "sword" in other languages to refer to a sword from a particular culture?
Just like how mediecal era people called almost every sort of sword "sword" they called it sword. The Kilij, the Scimitar, the Katana and the Shamshir both mean sword.
As far as Ottoman officers go from what i understand an officer would use a "kilij" or a "shamshir" / "saif" style sword depending on his place of origin. The kilij was more used in the Balkans and by the turks of asia minor while people from North Africa, Levant, Mesopotamia and even the Caucasus used more or less a shamshir or saif style sword, many times with little curviture like the more original style of the turkic swords. Depending on their place of origin officers would also be wearing a jambiya (arabs) or a qama (caucasians) or any dagger / shortsword from their culture. Ofcourse personal preference based on experience or just styling preferences also played a role.
Knife nut here, pure art in the blade shape, intimidating blade sweep, not so sure about the rest? Maybe look good with my fancy knives, which I would not ever to get that close, great stuff. Knowing his stuff over the years, another strange little queen with an ancestral prefix, well-done sir
What is meant by "asymmetrical point" in swordology? And why is a Star Of David on many British and some American sabers? That's a dem fine-looking saber, looks a lot like the USMC officer's sword. But you knew that! Another fascinating posting, thank you, sir... You should write a book, with considerable pictures!
"Asymmetrical point" means the shape of the blade is different either side of the point -- here, the sword curves on one side and is straight on the other. "Asymmetrical" = not symmetrical; that is, not the same.
From what I understand: the curved blades extend exposure of victim to a cutting edge? Vs European concept that a blade length mean you can be further away from enemy? I beleive the same concept applies in Samurai katana.
Is that bronze scabbard the standard issue for these swords? I do own a tulwar with a wootz 'shamshir' blade, the first antique sword I ever bought actually, which has an identical scabbard except for a slit at the back to accomodate the stronger curvature of the blade. I always wondered if it was original to the sword because it was obviously similar to european military scabbards, but this is the first time that I have seen another one exactly like it.
Just to give historical context, Mamelukes were warrior-slaves used by Muslim rulers in most prominently in Egypt and Syria, but also throughout the Mesopotamia and India. It was mostly These were mostly enslaved Turkic peoples, Armenians, Egyptian Copts, Circassians, Abkhazians, and Georgians. Also many Mamluks were also of Balkan origin (Albanians, Greeks, and South Slavs) The practice almost lasted for a thousand years.
Mamlukes were the slaves who were raised by ruling class as their sons. In medieval times, some people used to adopt children who were orphans or were captured during battles. These children were called malukes. In India, we had a maluk dynasty who ruled India for a few centuries. Indian Mamlukes were thousands of slaves raised by Sultan Shabuddin Ghori, who used to say that people have one or two sons, but I have thousands of sons. Sultan did not have cmhis real children, so he adopted thousands of orphans who were trained and raised like his sons.
Anyone know any specific treatises on sabres similar to the British general Sabre shown in the video? I’m really interested in learning more about sabre specifically
If you havent read it already then you should read "The Anglo-American Establishment" by Carroll Quigley. Also Tragedy & Hope is another good one by the same author. He was Bill Clinton's mentor, a member of the US Govt & the historian for our clients class. I went to a masonic private school & they were required reading for us. The British empire didn't end. It merged w/ America, Germany, France, Switzerland etc to form the Anglo-American Empire. Which is what we have now. They just figured out that is easier to capture a nation & control it through finance than through conquest. That way the nations people still perceive themselves as being sovereign.
I mean honestly look at all of our flags. Different designs but ALL are red, white & blue. The Red represents the crown of upper Egypt, the white represents lower Egypt & the blue represents the Egyptian blue helmet of war. It all has to do w/ Freemasonry which incidentally is why our elite have had such an obsession w/ Egypt since the 1700's. Theres so much kept from the public. I would know i was a Templar & a Master Mason for many years. That is until i had a change of heart & philosophy.
I'm fortunate to have one of these retailed by Phelps & Co Calcutta so used in India, with polished silvered scabbard. I've two questions - what explains a brass scabbard as opposed to a silvered (presumably) steel scabbard even with British mamelukes; and secondly, "General" or General Officer is referred to all ranks Major and above whist General is itself also a rank! So who exactly carried these, looking at the video presumably the folks holding General rank...?!?!
The Shamshir sword is a Persian sword, and much lighter than a Killij, in addition a Shamshir does not have a yalmen counter blade at the tip. The Palla is a much thicker and shorter Killij, a later Ottoman innovation. The original Mameluke sword from the period of the Mameluke Sultanate of Egypt (1250-1517) is very similar to the “Mameluke’ Sabre you depict in this program. The origin of the Killij is directly influenced by this Mamreluke original sword from the Middle Ages. This can be seen in the examples of the mameluke swords at the Topkapi arms Museum, which includes mameluke swords collected from the battlefield of the Mameluke defeat at the hands of the Ottomans at the battle of Marj-Dabiq in 1516. Mameluke arms and armour became quite the fashion in Ottoman Military circles after the defeat of the Mamelukes and the capture of Egypt in 1516. The Killij sword that you mention is an evolution of this original Mameluke sword, in the subsequent centuries. The Killij was used by the Mameluke Beylicate of Egypt, (1517-1811) and there are many examples at the Islamic Museum in Cairo. It was also used by most of the military Ottoman-Egyptian Pasha’s as a dress/fighting sword until about 1900. The most prized were made of ‘bulat’ steel, aka. Khorrasani Black in the East, and Damascus steel in the West. In the memoir of Capitaine Perrier during Napoleons campaign in Egypt he records seeing a mameluke/bulat steel sword cutting through the musket barrels of the French infantry at the battle of the Pyramids.
Excuse me, but half of the things you said were wrong. If you check old Hunnic swords and Asian (mostly Chinese) swords, you can see that thin swords are first intoduced middle and near east by nomadic tribes. And of you consider the enemies this tribes faced and their fighting styles, using a considerably lighter mid length sword with slight curvature to stab enemy that is hidden behind his shield and using momentum to make a thinner and deeper cut, you can easily see that this sword style first used by turkic cavalry and then adapted to eastern Empires. Also considering most of enemies turkic infantry faced are heavy infantry and Cataphracts of eastern rome this using this Palla sword doesnt make any sense since it definitely cant penetrate armor. I think you are confused because turks used this sword in late periods because simply maces and axes are better used against armored enemies. And name pala doesnt sound very Turkic doesn't it? Edit: What I mean is simply the fact that you didn't see this type of sword in museums doesnt mean it never used. It means there wasn't a dire need to use it.
@@hannibalburgers477 I believe we are here discussing Mameluke swords, the earliest references we have of this type of sword is through the earlier Muslim chronicles. Originally the ‘Seif’ (not the Shamsheer, which is a Persian sword, very probably influenced by the various nomadic swords and eastern swords you mention) was a slightly curved sabre. The Mamelukes applied much technical innovation to their arms, and this heavier sabre, the Mameluke sword was developed. It is designed to slash through chain mail when required, not plate armor. There are a number of written treatises/training manuals (Firusiya Manuals; The training of the Faris, Faris = Muslim mounted Knight) from the mameluke era (1250 onwards) on the use of arms and their weapons of choice are listed. For plate armor the balta or the tabarda (short and long stemmed fighting axe) the mace and the long stemmed war hammer were preferred, but this sword was the regular side arm of the Mameluke Corps. They referred to it as the ‘Seif’, the Killij is a Turkic term to the same weapon, once adopted by the Ottomans, the same weapon because both have the yalmen, the earlier versions called the ‘seif’ were found from the late Abbasid period which begin to include the yalmen. The paralell sword edge behind the yalmen on the back of the sword is the schwerpunkt of the sword, that part of the sword edge that has the greater cutting power. The connection of the Mameluke Seif to the Killij includes; many late 15th early 16th century Mameluke sword blades later refurnished with 16th-18th century Ottoman pistol grip hilts that today is considered the signature for the Killij/Mameluke sword. You mention Cataphracts, Rome, and the Pala, I am not sure I follow. The Pala’s I have seen, both in private collections and in museums look to me as a far more emphasized version of the more subtle Mameluke seif, the blades are wider, the break to the yalmen more pronounced, in fact all in all they look more like an exaggerated Ottoman version of the Mameluke seif. I am aware that many thousands of these blades were made, but ultimately the most prized are those with ‘bulat’ or ‘Khorrasani black’ steel blades, which is one of the reasons why Mameluke blades were so often re-furnished with the pistol grip Ottoman hilt, although the crossguards remain the same.
Mamlouk means the owned one in Arabic language, and it refers to a military system that led to a state structure later on. This system started within the Ayoubed state era, princes used to bring the enslaved young kids and buy them from East European and Eurasia ereas to be raised up as worriers. They have been thought Islamic sciences along with military sciences and martial arts. They also have got a career path to go through till they become leaders and commanders, and later on to be prince's as well while they are still called Mamaliek (plural of Mamlouk in Arabic language). They were great tough worriers and they were battle proofed. Then these Mamaliek ruled a Sultanate that leaded the Islamic world after the collapse of many of its strong states while facing the Mongols.. Later on they succeeded to score a heavy defeat to the mogols, so Egypt was the last metro station for the mogols by the hands of this state. They stopped many crossades and stopped the portoghese to invade what is known now as KSA. And there state has been ended by the ottomans who defeated them and occupied Egypt its capital along with the Levant area and hijaz deserts. But they remained in Egypt and fought against the French campaign and were defeated before the fresh army because then they weren't as strong as they were before.
Was this particular sword sharpened? That would go a long way in determination of whether the owner ever thought to use it for anything other than an ornament.
As far as hand protection goes. If you, as a General Officer are in such a situation as you have to use your sword, things have already gone horribly wrong.
Here's the thing, Main weapons of turkic infantry were maces and axes since most of the enemies they faced were heavy infantry and cataphracts. There was two kinds of cavalry sword, this sort of regular legth sword that used used as secondary weapon for light cavalry and horse archers and a very long and very strange looking one handed cavalry sword used for cutting down enemy infatry with just momentum of horse. Since ottoman army adapted firearms earlier that their western neighbours to solving issue of defeating enemy than are heavily armored, this sabres used as secondary weapons. Their thin shape could quickly penetrate unprotected places in armors (if there is one)
The malmukes were Turkic people hired by the Abbasid caliphate who were sold as slaves by their fellow Turks to the Arabs and converted to Islam. They introduced sabres to the Middle East.
I don't understand why antique ivory...anything really falls under anti-ivory trade laws. How could +100 year-old relics have an effect on the present-day illegal hunting and harvesting of tusked creatures? Do people salvage them and then repurpose the ivory into jewelry or something?
Mamelukes were not slaves, once they graduated from training school in Cairo. They were even given certificates as proof of their graduation which also acts as their proof of Manumission. This is in contrast to Janissaries who remained legally slaves of the Sultans through out their career.
Hey pal Shamshir is not Arabic its Persian Arabic saif is a different kind of sword Arabic saif is more strait and the cross guard is different as well Basically saif is Kilij but without that famous yelman and more strait blade Never call Shamshir Arabic
@@IPostSwords Yes, our original swords are expensive, but the new generation Turkish sword masters make very high quality swords with old techniques and they are satisfying both visually and in quality.
@@ahmetsezaikarakapici This is true, many good reproductions. Some even in crucible steel (though obviously those are still expensive lol). Personally, I want an antique yalmanli kilic before I get a reproduction, because I want the reproduction to be based on my specific antique. I suspect Matt also wants an original before getting a replica, to know how the antiques should handle / feel
Mamelukes were Turkic mercenaries when it was formed and it was like a mandatory soldier/warrior class with limited citizenship similar to Samurais or Janissaries etc indeed, in fact mamekule means subject/slave. In time they became more and more powerful as Turkic mercenaries kept coming from central Asia and finally gained enough power to even establish their own dynasty in Egypt. After several centuries and especially Turkic migration changed it's route from Egypt to Anatolia and Caucasus Turkic influence rapily reduced in Mamelukes and they became an Egyptian/Arabic dynasty indeed so i wouldn't mind you are talking about them as Arabs but the sword you are holding isn't an Arabic influenced sword at all, rather it is 100% Turkic influenced sword from early Mamelukes!! Same goes for calling them ''Muslim swords'' or ''Shamshir'' due their origins were once again Nomads as there were Nomadic armies/mercenaries everywhere from eastern Europe to India and Iran. I wouldn't claim they should be Kilijs neither as they might have very different features but what about calling them ''Nomadic swords'' as they really are, in fact Mongols have very similar curved swords as well!! But for a bizarre reason i've never heard anybody calling them Nomadic swords rather they call it ''Turko-Mongol sabers'' which must be the most twisted nomenclature in human history :))
Me waking up shouting at my computer "TELL ME ABOUT SWORDS!"
Those etchings look absolutely stunning. The curvature, cross-guard-esque handguard and the hilt remind me of Shamshir. Thank you for covering the Mameluke.
Edit: Heh! 5 mins you do cover the Shamshir! Haha! I should have been more patient. Thank you for the comparison.
It looks more like a kilij to me (because it seems to have a yelman).
@@Robert399 it does and it's a very nice, narrow one, fairly popular in central and north-east asia of high middle ages (and all the way into early modernity albeit everything was getting more curved and choppy then lol)
I was just checking pictures of it on the website truly marvellous
Hand protection on a generals sword.... Best hand protection for a general at that time was a stout body guard and a fast horse.
Blade profile honestly reminds me of some earlier Hungarian sabres I've seen in museums which would make sense with the Ottoman proximity.
They do share the ancestry (i mean hungarian and turko-mongol sabres)
Interestingly enough it's a very common shape (especially the thin yelman and low curvature) for yuan dynasty/mongol sabres. Tbh if you made the crossguard and langets shorter and more rounded it would look exactly like one famous yuan dynasty piece. i wouldn't be surprised if even the level of curvature was identical.
Couldn't agree more.
One I saw looked as if it were laser cut.
@@Sk0lzky Yuan Dynasty is much later. Magyars who were ancestors of modern Hungarians were an Ugoric-Turkic tribe. Their ruling tribe Arpad probably spoke Turkish. They came from the steppes around X. century. The origin of the Turkic sword were in the Altai region. That was the heartland of Turkic tribes. Altaic swords from the V-IX centuries are probably the origin of all those swords .
@@gursugursakal5601 they definitely wouldn't speak turkish, unless you're one of the people that call everything turkic "turkish" :v
The rest I know, I just meant the general origin of the sword design
Always wanted to see a video about that sabre ! Thank you so much Matt ;)
Napoleon really was into the mamelukes he even established a mameluke cavalry squadron in his imperial guard and had a mameluke bodyguard named Roustam Raza
Makes sense. Romans did something similar. Most of the cavalry auxilia were either Macedon or Numidian. And Memluks mixed both both Turkic and African native cavalry style.
I purchased a Saudi Arabian Officer's sword during the Persian Gulf War in 1991, and it's amazingly similar to that sword. The handle is brass over what I think is wood. It's hard to say for certain, as only a tiny glimpse of the scales under the brass is visible. The scabbard is also brass. Oddly enough, it comes with an insanely long tassled cord to use in ace of a sword belt. It was purchased from the military supply store on a Saudi base, and while the manager made certain I knew how it was supposed to be worn, I forgot years ago.
The sword was completely unsharpened, which being a novice in swords 30 years ago, I thought was a mistake from the smith. The man looked at me like I was crazy. He said he was neither my wife, nor son, and if I wanted my sword sharp either I or one of the aforementioned two would have to do it. It's still unsharpened to this day.
Did the manager expected you to carry the sword in public? XD
@@arx3516 if I had been an officer in the Saudi military, yes. He couldn't sell those swords to Saudi enlisted. American military were allowed to buy them regardless of rank.
The manager was only used to dealing with men who purchased them for an actual component of their uniform.
@@arx3516 I think in his mind we were buying them to wear as part of our dress uniform, or something like that.
Your channel is absolutely essential for military history. Education is never to be undervalued.
Education is paramount.
Every time Matt shows off some beautiful sword, I have to spend time with my collection to remind myself that I have ENOUGH ALREADY!
I think if a general has to pull his sword out and do some serious work with it, I'm sure the last concern is how much hand protection he has.
The ivory scale grips really look beautiful on this specific type of sword. I have seen historical examples with Jade scales as well.
Aesthetically speaking .. wow .. one of my favourite swords of all time!! Lovely stuff...
I remember going to the Belford arms fair with my parents circa 1980 and seeing one , it was my birthday and my parents had agreed to match whatever money I'd saved, but this beautiful sword was still out of my league, but I did come away with the worlds heaviest Shin Gunto.
This remembers me the byzantine discussion about the origin and tipology of Jose de San Martin saber. He bought a second hand blade in London with the latest fashion. A blade like this.
I heard that generals started wearing these swords after one was gifted to a general by an Egyptian noble, don't know if it's true or an urban myth.
I don't know about the British or French, but this is true in the case of American generals following US victory in the Barbary Wars, specifically the Battle of Derna in 1803.
Its like describing indian spiced tea as Chai.. Chai just means tea, so saying chai tea is saying tea tea, but we recognize that the word has a contextual meaning of tea as is typically made in an indian style. It is true of everything when words are co opted from other languages. A burrito is a food, no one considers it a small donkey.
Bonsai means 'tree in a pot' - this game looks good : th-cam.com/video/WAXTDAKkqbo/w-d-xo.html and has similar swords to the video
@@nathanaelsmith3553 Thought it meant glorious death, maybe thats spelled with a z..
@@PacMonster0 Except that is same, and calling all tea, chai, or "tea" is equally useless because there are as many varieties of tea as there are places that drink tea. Just like we will refer to someone who knows tea will simply call it chai, people who don't know call it chai tea, just like people will call it a Jian sword, or tulwar sword. Granted people who are as culturally unaware would probably call it a more generic term with racist undertones like a Samurai sword, or an indian sword. Which is as unhelpful to communicate to someone who is knowledgeable as simply calling it a curved sword or a one handed sword.
I love the pattern! I'd love to own one on day
This actually reminds me of a sword of Mehmed II that was displayed in a historical museum in Istanbul. Maybe the designer took his inspiration from that.
Well, actually this slim and curved sword style first came to west with Turkic tribes, and quickly adopted by eastern cavalry. Turkic tribes that moved to Ummayyad territories named Mevali (means Freed Slave). Similar to how both early (most famous example Ariminus) and late Roman empire tried and failed, and how Ottoman empire tried and mostly failed, they gave children of minorities (Turkic and Farsian) to Arabic households. This Turkic people over the time became Memluk cavalry under Abbasid Empire, and suprise suprise, they overthrew monarch and decided to rule Egypt with oligarcy.
What I mean is Turkic swords always have similar characteristics, the person designed this sword doesnt need to get inspired by that spesific sword. This sort of sword is pretty weak for swordmen but useful for light cavalry as secondary weapon and for gunpowder era infantry as sidearm.
I’ve always loved that style of hilt
The Prodigy shirt? Hell, yeah.
As usual a fascinating discussion.
Always interesting. Thank you for sharing.
7:40 into the video "Now. I just want to talk briefly about this specific sword." Ah, love your rants Mr. Easton!
If I understand correctly, the word kilij (or kiliç) refers to the more general curved eastern sword with the raised yelman, whereas the pala is a specific type of kilij, with that characteristic broad T-section blade for the first half and then that sudden bend (and sometimes a bit of a bulging belly).
Kilij (more correctly Kılınç) means sword in Turkic languages, so in those countries from Eastern Sabre to German Zweihander both called Kilij.
As far as I know, Falcion to Scimitar both are called Pala in Turkey and suprisingly this type of broad swords are mostly used by early medieval europans.
@@hannibalburgers477 Google translate says pala means machete. I guess it just means a "great big chopper"?
@@jellekastelein7316 Kinda, even broad mustaches are called pala
@@hannibalburgers477 Ha! That fits kind of perfectly with "great big chopper" then. :oP Still, if I google "ottoman pala", I get mostly hits for a particular type of broad-bladed shamshir-like sword with a sudden bend and a T-section blade for the first half of it.
@@jellekastelein7316 Dont worry, even Turks doesn't know what Turkic swords look like
No views, 2 likes. TH-cam working as intended.
Many people have explained how the compiling of data for the two are different leading to the views always trailing behind and how the views typically lock at 300 for hours.
Still have my cheapy (but expensive to aquire) ceremonial one from TBS. Nice to see a real one.
What a lovely piece, I've never heard of these, but I must say someone had a great taste. It combines one of my favourite blade profiles with the distinct middle-eastern hilt! It almost makes me wish I was a XIXc. british general >
Interesting as a badge of rank. The example you gave of the chap shown in pictures with 3 different swords. (1) the mameluke sabre, as a symbol of rank and authority (2) a conventional sabre of the time to show he was "one with his men", and (3) his old one from when he was a young officer, to make the point that he may be a general now, but he had paid his dues. I'm sure he chose these carefully to send those messages.
So who owned it? I can't imagine general officer's swords are that common, and I imagine they were private purchase. Do you know who originally owned this sword?
This. You’d think that would be something not readily available for public sale.
@11:00 Matt who has a few dozen swords in screen, actually manages to point to a sword just out of the screen. lol
You should do a playlist, if you would like to, on different warrior castes , their weapons and armoury! I assume it will probably stick to more middle ages type stuff, ie, knightly orders, mamluks , samurai's, rajputs etc but would be amazing to hear about and maybe break some myths along the way too! such as all these people were very righteous or followed a code like don't hurt the unarmed etc, where in reality it would be free for all in wars, maybe im wrong? Just a suggestion!
I think you'd be disappointed because in most of the world throughout most of history gear wasn't really segregated in that way. It's always been either everybody buys the best gear they can afford or a government provides the most cost-effective gear it can get to as many people as possible.
e.g. Knightly orders used the same gear as any other knight and any other rich soldier. Samurai used the same swords and spears and bows as everyone else in Japan. etc. Even between cultures, there's less variation than you'd think.
Lol I just watched a video where you commented you never had a General Officer's Mameluke sabre before and now you have one.
I love how cultures become intertwined within Empires , the late Byzantine infantry welded words highly similar to these ones due to their adaptation of the design after fighting campaigns in the ME and North Africa.
@Scholagladiatoria I think you may be mistaken when you say that you can discuss the influence of the British Mameluke sword while putting aside the American discussion. The Mameluke influence on the British sword is not something Britain got only from its battles with the French in Egypt. It is something that rubbed off on them from mixing with the United States Marine corps at Gibraltar station, and fighting the United States Marine corps in the War of 1812 too. That's where Britain got the idea of using the Mameluke saber. There is a discrepancy of whether or not the Mameluke was presented by Hamet Karamanli to Presley O'Bannon or if it was a Virginia State sword presented to O'Bannon in the style. I have seen good historical accounts for both. It's possible that both happened, or one and not the other. But it's obvious that it was a tradition in the United States Marine corps originating from the first decade of the 19th century.
The 1831 is a beautiful sword and one I have long hoped to acquire when finances and other priorities allow.
If your generals are having to fight something has gone terribly wrong.
I would say a lot of things have gone realy wrong or you got a realy stupid general in the wrong place.
English speakers: Tulwar, pulwar, kilij, shamsher & katana
Linguist: So how many times did you say sword again?
Right :-)
But it's about communication and in the collecting world we all know what a tulwar is and how a pulwar is different. And the difference between a shamshir and a kilij etc
To be fair they do the same with european swords as well, Messer (knive), Claymore (great sword) etc.
I think that Shamshir actually means lions tail. However, words do change their meaning over time...
Dracula once meant the dragon, but is today Demon for instance.
@@edi9892 Dracul means dragon/demon adding the "a" at the end changes the meaning to "of" contextually "son of the dragon" in the case of Vlad III
@@colbunkmust indeed. I left that detail out as just writing Dracul would be confusing.
The united states officers sword was presented to lt.pressly o'Bannon by the pasha of tripoli in 1805 for the role the marines had in eradicating the barbary coast pirates it was the first presentation and issue of a mameluke sword to a western military power and is still listed as a weapon in the U.S. Marines arsenal.
That's fabulous. What has that to do with the British topic discussed here?
Hi from UK Josh, though I recognised it, then your post. Always thought it strange, the best of us are sacrificed for the few, who look good but do nothing. I was told long ago, a thing of beauty is a joy forever.
@@CathodeRayNipplez not a god damn thing what's your point?
@@joshuawelsh9022 That's what I was asking.. What's your point? Guessing at 0:47 "Let's leave US swords to one side" you had a conniption and just had to throw your US bit in there.. Staying on topic seems not one of your strong suits.
@@CathodeRayNipplez aww what's wrong sweetie do you have a problem with americans?
Sweet shirt dude i love the prodigy
In a book by Wilkinson I have a photo of one of these swords which was actually fitted with a Wootz blade, probably Persian from the look. Obviously an officer who appreciated those blades had this made.
Great video again! Could you do a video on Turkish Alps and there fighting skills and weaponary at any point? Its an interesting topic and are always overlooked and forgotten.
I very much like the blade design, both in aesthetics and functionality. It's a light blade, but still decent in cut and thrust.
With that raised false edge, I imagine the scabbard has to be an interesting shape inside. (More room above it, where the blade is narrower) Does it rattle?
Since you mentioned the kilic, I have some questions about the "heraldic scimitar", which usually resembles a VERY broad kilic. I wonder what's the broadest kilic you've ever seen and whether the "heraldic scimitar" matches anything in reality. Yes, I suppose a general's sword is more for costume jewellery than as a fighting sidearm. :)
When speaking other languages, do they use "sword" to refer to some kind of European sword like we use the word for "sword" in other languages to refer to a sword from a particular culture?
Don't know about that, but today we use "gladius" (Latin for "sword") to mean a very specific type of Roman sword. Same principle.
Just like how mediecal era people called almost every sort of sword "sword" they called it sword. The Kilij, the Scimitar, the Katana and the Shamshir both mean sword.
is it battle ready?
A fine sword!
Love PRODIGY shirt!
As far as Ottoman officers go from what i understand an officer would use a "kilij" or a "shamshir" / "saif" style sword depending on his place of origin. The kilij was more used in the Balkans and by the turks of asia minor while people from North Africa, Levant, Mesopotamia and even the Caucasus used more or less a shamshir or saif style sword, many times with little curviture like the more original style of the turkic swords. Depending on their place of origin officers would also be wearing a jambiya (arabs) or a qama (caucasians) or any dagger / shortsword from their culture. Ofcourse personal preference based on experience or just styling preferences also played a role.
Matt how long is the blade of this sword?
Matt do you own any Swedish swords? Iirc you meantioned swedish sabres in a old video.
Anyhow, love your channel!
The U.S. marines made this sword on Forged in Fire.
Knife nut here, pure art in the blade shape, intimidating blade sweep, not so sure about the rest? Maybe look good with my fancy knives, which I would not ever to get that close, great stuff. Knowing his stuff over the years, another strange little queen with an ancestral prefix, well-done sir
What is meant by "asymmetrical point" in swordology? And why is a Star Of David on many British and some American sabers? That's a dem fine-looking saber, looks a lot like the USMC officer's sword. But you knew that! Another fascinating posting, thank you, sir... You should write a book, with considerable pictures!
"Asymmetrical point" means the shape of the blade is different either side of the point -- here, the sword curves on one side and is straight on the other. "Asymmetrical" = not symmetrical; that is, not the same.
From what I understand: the curved blades extend exposure of victim to a cutting edge? Vs European concept that a blade length mean you can be further away from enemy? I beleive the same concept applies in Samurai katana.
Is that bronze scabbard the standard issue for these swords? I do own a tulwar with a wootz 'shamshir' blade, the first antique sword I ever bought actually, which has an identical scabbard except for a slit at the back to accomodate the stronger curvature of the blade. I always wondered if it was original to the sword because it was obviously similar to european military scabbards, but this is the first time that I have seen another one exactly like it.
I'm curious, did you ever see (or hear of) one of these general officer swords that have been service sharpened?
Just to give historical context, Mamelukes were warrior-slaves used by Muslim rulers in most prominently in Egypt and Syria, but also throughout the Mesopotamia and India. It was mostly These were mostly enslaved Turkic peoples, Armenians, Egyptian Copts, Circassians, Abkhazians, and Georgians. Also many Mamluks were also of Balkan origin (Albanians, Greeks, and South Slavs) The practice almost lasted for a thousand years.
Mamlukes were the slaves who were raised by ruling class as their sons.
In medieval times, some people used to adopt children who were orphans or were captured during battles. These children were called malukes.
In India, we had a maluk dynasty who ruled India for a few centuries. Indian Mamlukes were thousands of slaves raised by Sultan Shabuddin Ghori, who used to say that people have one or two sons, but I have thousands of sons. Sultan did not have cmhis real children, so he adopted thousands of orphans who were trained and raised like his sons.
usually I dont like the look of ivory, that handle and guard etc look beautiful
Anyone know any specific treatises on sabres similar to the British general Sabre shown in the video? I’m really interested in learning more about sabre specifically
Beautiful sword. How much is something like this worth?
The crossguard is very similar to what old Hungarian (and possible other horse riding people from the east) sabers had around the 9-10. century.
If you havent read it already then you should read "The Anglo-American Establishment" by Carroll Quigley. Also Tragedy & Hope is another good one by the same author. He was Bill Clinton's mentor, a member of the US Govt & the historian for our clients class. I went to a masonic private school & they were required reading for us. The British empire didn't end. It merged w/ America, Germany, France, Switzerland etc to form the Anglo-American Empire. Which is what we have now. They just figured out that is easier to capture a nation & control it through finance than through conquest. That way the nations people still perceive themselves as being sovereign.
I mean honestly look at all of our flags. Different designs but ALL are red, white & blue. The Red represents the crown of upper Egypt, the white represents lower Egypt & the blue represents the Egyptian blue helmet of war. It all has to do w/ Freemasonry which incidentally is why our elite have had such an obsession w/ Egypt since the 1700's. Theres so much kept from the public. I would know i was a Templar & a Master Mason for many years. That is until i had a change of heart & philosophy.
I'm fortunate to have one of these retailed by Phelps & Co Calcutta so used in India, with polished silvered scabbard. I've two questions - what explains a brass scabbard as opposed to a silvered (presumably) steel scabbard even with British mamelukes; and secondly, "General" or General Officer is referred to all ranks Major and above whist General is itself also a rank! So who exactly carried these, looking at the video presumably the folks holding General rank...?!?!
Two thumbs down? Who are these history denier's? Very interesting Dr. Easton, as usual keep them coming!! Stay safe and God bless 🇺🇸☠️🇺🇸🇬🇧🇨🇦🤺💂
The Shamshir sword is a Persian sword, and much lighter than a Killij, in addition a Shamshir does not have a yalmen counter blade at the tip. The Palla is a much thicker and shorter Killij, a later Ottoman innovation. The original Mameluke sword from the period of the Mameluke Sultanate of Egypt (1250-1517) is very similar to the “Mameluke’ Sabre you depict in this program. The origin of the Killij is directly influenced by this Mamreluke original sword from the Middle Ages. This can be seen in the examples of the mameluke swords at the Topkapi arms Museum, which includes mameluke swords collected from the battlefield of the Mameluke defeat at the hands of the Ottomans at the battle of Marj-Dabiq in 1516. Mameluke arms and armour became quite the fashion in Ottoman Military circles after the defeat of the Mamelukes and the capture of Egypt in 1516. The Killij sword that you mention is an evolution of this original Mameluke sword, in the subsequent centuries. The Killij was used by the Mameluke Beylicate of Egypt, (1517-1811) and there are many examples at the Islamic Museum in Cairo. It was also used by most of the military Ottoman-Egyptian Pasha’s as a dress/fighting sword until about 1900. The most prized were made of ‘bulat’ steel, aka. Khorrasani Black in the East, and Damascus steel in the West. In the memoir of Capitaine Perrier during Napoleons campaign in Egypt he records seeing a mameluke/bulat steel sword cutting through the musket barrels of the French infantry at the battle of the Pyramids.
Excuse me, but half of the things you said were wrong. If you check old Hunnic swords and Asian (mostly Chinese) swords, you can see that thin swords are first intoduced middle and near east by nomadic tribes. And of you consider the enemies this tribes faced and their fighting styles, using a considerably lighter mid length sword with slight curvature to stab enemy that is hidden behind his shield and using momentum to make a thinner and deeper cut, you can easily see that this sword style first used by turkic cavalry and then adapted to eastern Empires.
Also considering most of enemies turkic infantry faced are heavy infantry and Cataphracts of eastern rome this using this Palla sword doesnt make any sense since it definitely cant penetrate armor.
I think you are confused because turks used this sword in late periods because simply maces and axes are better used against armored enemies. And name pala doesnt sound very Turkic doesn't it?
Edit: What I mean is simply the fact that you didn't see this type of sword in museums doesnt mean it never used. It means there wasn't a dire need to use it.
@@hannibalburgers477 I believe we are here discussing Mameluke swords, the earliest references we have of this type of sword is through the earlier Muslim chronicles. Originally the ‘Seif’ (not the Shamsheer, which is a Persian sword, very probably influenced by the various nomadic swords and eastern swords you mention) was a slightly curved sabre. The Mamelukes applied much technical innovation to their arms, and this heavier sabre, the Mameluke sword was developed. It is designed to slash through chain mail when required, not plate armor. There are a number of written treatises/training manuals (Firusiya Manuals; The training of the Faris, Faris = Muslim mounted Knight) from the mameluke era (1250 onwards) on the use of arms and their weapons of choice are listed. For plate armor the balta or the tabarda (short and long stemmed fighting axe) the mace and the long stemmed war hammer were preferred, but this sword was the regular side arm of the Mameluke Corps.
They referred to it as the ‘Seif’, the Killij is a Turkic term to the same weapon, once adopted by the Ottomans, the same weapon because both have the yalmen, the earlier versions called the ‘seif’ were found from the late Abbasid period which begin to include the yalmen. The paralell sword edge behind the yalmen on the back of the sword is the schwerpunkt of the sword, that part of the sword edge that has the greater cutting power. The connection of the Mameluke Seif to the Killij includes; many late 15th early 16th century Mameluke sword blades later refurnished with 16th-18th century Ottoman pistol grip hilts that today is considered the signature for the Killij/Mameluke sword.
You mention Cataphracts, Rome, and the Pala, I am not sure I follow. The Pala’s I have seen, both in private collections and in museums look to me as a far more emphasized version of the more subtle Mameluke seif, the blades are wider, the break to the yalmen more pronounced, in fact all in all they look more like an exaggerated Ottoman version of the Mameluke seif. I am aware that many thousands of these blades were made, but ultimately the most prized are those with ‘bulat’ or ‘Khorrasani black’ steel blades, which is one of the reasons why Mameluke blades were so often re-furnished with the pistol grip Ottoman hilt, although the crossguards remain the same.
Mamlouk means the owned one in Arabic language, and it refers to a military system that led to a state structure later on. This system started within the Ayoubed state era, princes used to bring the enslaved young kids and buy them from East European and Eurasia ereas to be raised up as worriers. They have been thought Islamic sciences along with military sciences and martial arts. They also have got a career path to go through till they become leaders and commanders, and later on to be prince's as well while they are still called Mamaliek (plural of Mamlouk in Arabic language). They were great tough worriers and they were battle proofed. Then these Mamaliek ruled a Sultanate that leaded the Islamic world after the collapse of many of its strong states while facing the Mongols.. Later on they succeeded to score a heavy defeat to the mogols, so Egypt was the last metro station for the mogols by the hands of this state. They stopped many crossades and stopped the portoghese to invade what is known now as KSA. And there state has been ended by the ottomans who defeated them and occupied Egypt its capital along with the Levant area and hijaz deserts. But they remained in Egypt and fought against the French campaign and were defeated before the fresh army because then they weren't as strong as they were before.
Was this particular sword sharpened?
That would go a long way in determination of whether the owner ever thought to use it for anything other than an ornament.
As far as hand protection goes. If you, as a General Officer are in such a situation as you have to use your sword, things have already gone horribly wrong.
so Matt how about telling us the difference between an original '31 sabre & an Indian repo?
So, it's for show, but it can be good battle-ready sword if made properly?
Considered the universal swords version, but have been hesitant cuz of the obvious comcerns...
So you hold Mameluke swords in a hammer grip? I think it would be awkward in a saber grip.
were Ottoman Turkish swords(kilij, scimitar.) used alone?
From what i can gather, in the early days yes they were used with shields. And during the gunpowder era they were used alone in the pictures I've seen
Here's the thing, Main weapons of turkic infantry were maces and axes since most of the enemies they faced were heavy infantry and cataphracts. There was two kinds of cavalry sword, this sort of regular legth sword that used used as secondary weapon for light cavalry and horse archers and a very long and very strange looking one handed cavalry sword used for cutting down enemy infatry with just momentum of horse. Since ottoman army adapted firearms earlier that their western neighbours to solving issue of defeating enemy than are heavily armored, this sabres used as secondary weapons. Their thin shape could quickly penetrate unprotected places in armors (if there is one)
check Karabela :)
The malmukes were Turkic people hired by the Abbasid caliphate who were sold as slaves by their fellow Turks to the Arabs and converted to Islam. They introduced sabres to the Middle East.
Is it Wootz ?
No, these swords are typically straight forward mono-steel, as used in most European swords of the time.
If a general officer is having to fight with his status weapon, things have gone seriously agley.
It is not an interpretation of a mameluk sword, it is a mameluk sword.
I don’t think the general need to worry much about fighting with a sword.
Patton carried two pistols to make the point that he had killed and would kill again.
This seems to say I have killed and will kill with style.
@@ftdefiance1 it’s part of the dress, and shows that the deployment the general has been on.
Turks probably get the word "pala" from Magyars/Hungarians, that use it for the saber/szablya.
I don't understand why antique ivory...anything really falls under anti-ivory trade laws. How could +100 year-old relics have an effect on the present-day illegal hunting and harvesting of tusked creatures? Do people salvage them and then repurpose the ivory into jewelry or something?
i owned that once
its a cross breed sabre not whole original
mamluks began as kipchaks and by the 18th century were mostly georgians
I havs an original one, with intend to sale
Mamelukes were not slaves, once they graduated from training school in Cairo. They were even given certificates as proof of their graduation which also acts as their proof of Manumission. This is in contrast to Janissaries who remained legally slaves of the Sultans through out their career.
when in India....
That is one sexy sword. Mmmmmm
why didn't they had more hand protection as soon as they were adopted by the Europeans?
In Spanish we coveralls "mameluco".
Hey pal Shamshir is not Arabic its Persian
Arabic saif is a different kind of sword
Arabic saif is more strait and the cross guard is different as well
Basically saif is Kilij but without that famous yelman and more strait blade
Never call Shamshir Arabic
Yo
You should buy a Turkish Yalmanli kilic.
Why?
@@CathodeRayNipplez it's worth to be seen
They're often very expensive. Makes them difficult to collect.
@@IPostSwords Yes, our original swords are expensive, but the new generation Turkish sword masters make very high quality swords with old techniques and they are satisfying both visually and in quality.
@@ahmetsezaikarakapici This is true, many good reproductions. Some even in crucible steel (though obviously those are still expensive lol).
Personally, I want an antique yalmanli kilic before I get a reproduction, because I want the reproduction to be based on my specific antique. I suspect Matt also wants an original before getting a replica, to know how the antiques should handle / feel
Shamshir is Persian.
Mamelukes were Turkic mercenaries when it was formed and it was like a mandatory soldier/warrior class with limited citizenship similar to Samurais or Janissaries etc indeed, in fact mamekule means subject/slave. In time they became more and more powerful as Turkic mercenaries kept coming from central Asia and finally gained enough power to even establish their own dynasty in Egypt. After several centuries and especially Turkic migration changed it's route from Egypt to Anatolia and Caucasus Turkic influence rapily reduced in Mamelukes and they became an Egyptian/Arabic dynasty indeed so i wouldn't mind you are talking about them as Arabs but the sword you are holding isn't an Arabic influenced sword at all, rather it is 100% Turkic influenced sword from early Mamelukes!! Same goes for calling them ''Muslim swords'' or ''Shamshir'' due their origins were once again Nomads as there were Nomadic armies/mercenaries everywhere from eastern Europe to India and Iran. I wouldn't claim they should be Kilijs neither as they might have very different features but what about calling them ''Nomadic swords'' as they really are, in fact Mongols have very similar curved swords as well!! But for a bizarre reason i've never heard anybody calling them Nomadic swords rather they call it ''Turko-Mongol sabers'' which must be the most twisted nomenclature in human history :))
Shamshir is Persian not Arabic!
WILL U SOLD TYS SWORDS TALWAR IN INDIAN CURRENCY RUPEES RS?
arabic sword