Genie Stalls Under Load? (Perkins Diesel)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ธ.ค. 2024
- Back on the construction site!
This 2007 Genie S60 Diesel stalls out under load.
No fuel pressure is the culprit...but what is the cause??
SUR&R FUEL PRESSURE MASTER KIT:
www.amazon.com...
Enjoy!
Ivan
I use these boom lifts and scissor lifts regularly as a stucco contractor... Its interesting to learn how they work, but you have saved me a ton of time and money with your automotive videos... And for that, I give you a tip of the hard hat....
I remember old fiat 127 cam lobe would wear down on fuel pump,they had a thick block type gasket we used to rub the gasket down on the path or sidewalk as use call it ,to take a bit off the block then stick it back in and it worked fine after that,
Hi I am a mechanic in the uk and nearly all diesels here, them return pipes are for fuel leak off not cooling, when a diesel injector goes bad it will return more fuel through the spill offs in your case they are all linked with that pipe, which can drop the fuel pressure, what you need to do is measure amount of diesel returning out of the injectors and compare with known good, in uk I would take injectors out for test and repair. I suppose to prove it is your cam lobe worn you could measure the diesel coming out of the lift pump cranking with injector pump disabled and compare. hope you and family well and I really enjoy your videos
It is very rare to see wear on an eccentric lobe of the camshaft ... I had a similar problem, it ended up being a small puncture in the fuel line right next to the fuel tank, the fuel hose was sucking some air into through the hole and that lowered the entire low pressure side of the fuel pump (the hole was so small that only a little bit of fuel was coming out once the engine was turned off / with the engine running no fuel was coming out due to vacuum from the low pressure pump) Anything (hoses, pipes, filters) that sucks air into that low pressure system will have the same effect. Thanks Ivan!
Great tip Argeny!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Haven't seen the video yet, will watch later. Are you aware, that common rail Diesel engines get shut off by the ECU, when railpressure is considered too low under given load conditions?
There are two main reasons - excessive injector return leakage and worn out HD-pump. Sometimes minor things like leaking overpressure valves in HD-pump etc etc may be also the cause, of course.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Дополнение.Диагностику надо начинать с ветви подачи.В разрыв между баком и топливным насосом использовать тройник с вакуумметром.Большой вакуум - забита сетка в баке, нет вакуума - подсос воздуха, не работает насос.
@@werner.x No ECU on this thing ;)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Of course is this engine computer controlled.
I travel out your way to family in Bellefonte. Always enjoy watching PA youtubers
It would be nice to see a fuel return measurement between both Genie lifts and compare flow return rates.. Maybe even change filters, dirty filter wound give you flow but restrict volume???
The diesel return lines are for lubricating the injectors and as you say cool them down. I wouldn't advise pinching it off.
Only way to be 100% certain would be a dial indicator through the fuel pump hole on the block to the cam, crank the engine or turn it by hand and note the travel, repeat with the known good engine. It's rare that only the fuel pump lobe would wear, but stranger things have happened.
Ya I've never personally seen or heard of a lift pump failing usually it's something else in this case it could be the engine cam shalf
@@neilmurphy845 It probably ground down the actuator on the pump at the same rate as the cam lobe. The internals of the pump are probably fine, but between the grinding of the lever and lobe, there's just no travel to operate the pump properly.
@@crashoverride328 ya it's disappointing because the old Perkins diesel 3 cylinder you couldn't kill them
@@crashoverride328 And thats what we need Ivan to check! Im dieng from a lack of inromation! Does somebody have an airplane that can fly me other to check.
I just cant stand when the cause of problem ist not rooted.
the cam should be the harder material and the pump arm softer and chew away first, that said what caused it to be eaten?
failure inside the pump causing excessive force? ran low on oil or very dirty extensively? oiling issue inside the engine?
think I'd be checking oil pressure and other things, as well as checking the lobe of course
Wow!! PERKINS DIESEL!! used to have 2.3 liter straight four diesel in a Bedford CF van. Drove that thing all over UK when i lived then, clocked over 380,000 miles before engine quit, lol. Had it rebuilt then kept going for another 200k miles before i moved to USA, lol. Looking at that engine brought me memories, sorry... don't mean to ramble lol!
Awesome video! Love a genie fix!
Wow that's a great lifespan for the Perkins! :)
Interesting fuel line setup. Unless I'm thinking about it wrong, you could just pinch that return line off permanently and the injectors would just return the other direction toward the fuel inlet. The catch is it would not bleed out the air correctly. But your electric pump is a better fix!
I think they rely on fuel circulation to cool injectors .
I put electric pump and or outboard primer ball on all of these machines.
In that Perkins lift pump there is a screen under that round cover few ever clean and return line often has a small oriface to restrict fuel raising pressure most HEUI CAT and Navastar have in head a fitting . Return fuel cools injectors so reattach return asap.
Sometimes angry workers or vandals put junk in fuel tanks here in NYC especially plastic bags etc .
Excellent work Tzastrovia Comrade.
Podnik Da!
I am glad to see you again, your videos are better tha Netflix.
I don't think is the cam shaft,I think replacing all filters and inspecting inside all the lines.
Very intresting, I can't wait to see the end of the video. Blessings
I appreciate you taking time to put a video together. It could have been a little more to the point for my research.
I think that the construction contractor should give Ivan one of those housing units that he's building so that Ivan can be available 24/7 to repair these used Genie boom lifts.
LOL.
I think Amanda would have something to say about that!
@@rafflesnh -- She would probably say: Finally I have the kitchen that I've always wanted. ;)
Great diagnostics, another quick test is using a vacuum gauge to rule out very small leaks.
I had a similar problem on a Chrysler gasoline engine many years ago. There was a push-rod between the fuel pump and the cam and that had gotten worn out. It was so badly mushroomed I had to remove the timing cover to access it and remove it. Cam was okay, fuel pump was okay but the push-rod was worn out.
Ivan, The Best Genie Repair Technician in the Tri State Area!
;)
had similar problem on 6.9 turbo diesel ford--under acceleration would stall --problem was bad rolled seal on spin on fuel cannister
check primary baldwin filter for grit between gasket and housing--and use permatex no 2 around filter base and can--micro-air under higher suction likely culprit
40 years ago Baldwin sent out bad spin on filters--never acknowledged fault but replaced mine at no charge
The Genius is diagnosing the Genie...luv u my brother
On most older heavy equipment the spec for them pumps is 5-7 psi, this feeds the injection pump, and thats where your press comes from. Hook up a clear fuel hose make sure no air bubbles if so, check all hose connections, if all tight and still has bubbles, replace the main injection pump i doubt its cam shaft lob. Do these checks , ill beat the seals are worn outin main injection pump, not the transfer pump!!
replace the filters,
Look at the parts book. There is likely a flow restrictor that was taken out by someone else.
And... even new ultra low sulfur diesels have wax in the fuel. Plugs primary and secondary filters and does not show.
Get more info. Find the required fuel pressure and all the engineered devices that enable it to work correctly.
Look at the base of the injectors. Some of the seals have holes in than that restrict flow. If the wrong ones are in there... low pressure.
No all data for that rig. Keep digging....some of those Perkins branded engines are renamed ISO engines too. Made in Japan.
Also, some of those lift pumps have debris screens in them.
Itty bitty check valves to ensure proper function need checked too
Agree. Usually works with a flow restrictor. Found in my line of work people sometimes put the wrong banjo bolt in the wrong place. They look the same but one has a restrictor and the other one not.
you have a working one to compare, most likely the flow is to cool ports, keep all air bubbles out and the pressure regulator is probably down stream of the return from the last injector port.
Ivan, one or more injectors are leaking back to tank. On modern common rail you are only allowed 15ml per min per injector at idle return to tank. IE all four injectors have 60ml max return per min at idle. You need to try a injector leak of kit to identify the faulty injectors.
Interesting...
Would take some time, but, perhaps you could measure the lift of the lobe? Would be good piece of mind to know if it's somehow disintegrating. Any way to inspect the lobe? Maybe compare the two.
Smart fix with the electric pump. Cheap and effective. Thanks Ivan!
My guess would have been a leaking gasket or bladder in the lift pump. I’ve also seen bad fuel filters (holes between the clean and dirty sides) cause low fuel pressure. I would think a bad cam lobe would be last on my list. Cracked fuel lines or bad connections under a hose clamp sucking air would be first.
I work on equipments Ivan, any time I have a fueling problem first thing I do change filter and put an electric pump it’s reliable and easy to service. Even with common rail system I like to add an electric pump so the high pressure pump don’t have to work as hard for suction.
What we do is single out the pump run a fuel line from a bottle to the pump and bypass the filters work backwards to find the problem also you can run a vacuum gauge to the suction line check for restriction
Hey Ivan I am working on the same lift, replacing the wire harness through the boom.
Sounds like a "fun" project haha! How many wires are broken?
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Theirs 2 separate cables with 20 wires in each one and 2 smaller cables with 3 wires. Now they want the hydraulic hoses changed while i have everything apart. Its actually not to bad of a job
After you explained how simple the system is I immediately suspected a worn cam shaft....that sucks! Nice fix though
Were you actually able to see the wear on the cam? Did you try to verify that there was no blockage in the lines connecting the injectors or even thru injectors themselves? The position of the "banjo" holes could have been regulating or determining how much fuel flowed as well.
Like someone said, if it sucks air anywhere you will have a problems, but since you are lacking a pressure completly there have to be a major leak in the system and you would notice that, maybe it wouldn't even run at all. It helps if you put transparent hose in the system for example in front of high pressure pump, then you can observe presence of air bubles in the system. I am also leaning toward worn cam lobe and in that case a precise weld on low pressure pump lever would solve your problem, tried that couple of times and it worked every single time, since the lobe is damaged you don't have to worry about further damage with a welded lever. Encountered this problem couple of times so far. Pinching the return line is not a good idea i think, its there to lubricate injectors and to relieve a stress on a low pressure pump internals.
The rubber hose on the return line...wonder off someone changed the hose to a larger size. I'm thinking they might take a special size that isn't readily available. Could be thinking of new Holland though
Some of those diesel union bolts have a a restrickor in them had one diesel pump where they had accidentally swopped the inlet and return union bolt it cause some interesting issues. Look forward to your next case study Ivan
Please Check back if the mechanical actuaion of the pump is realy bad! Look at the rod if it is damaged!
Ivan, Fuel returns through the injectors from the high pressure line, but just a litle for lubricant. A faulty injector can cause high fuel terurn hence low high pressure. You need to do a leak by test on each injector.The return line is sort of an accumalation of all the returns. IE 4 injector returne and a high pressure pump return combined into 1 hose
Interesting!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics so an injector that has exess leak off will have reduced pressure on it's inlet. In newer common rail diesels exess leak off on just one injector will cause a no start. Because the high pressure pump can't maintain it's 300+ bar on the common rail. There's a glass jar kind of tool for measuring injector leak off. th-cam.com/video/DUmAyj6uBTo/w-d-xo.html
@@drivewasher The link to the video is great! We are in Russia, we use medical syringes and a transparent hose. :)
@@engeneer_ru5827 He,He A RUSSIAN repair brilliant!
Perkins used Delco mechanical lift pumps. With Deleco pumps the thickness of the spacer gasket between the the pump body and the pump effects fuel delivery and pressure.
I can see how that would effectively change the lift on the cam.
@@hudzgh the further away the pump is from the lobe the less the pumping effect. The pump may travel less.
I wonder if the return isn't controlled by how much fuel returns through the injectors.
What about if the return line sucking air would it loss power still????
Привет Иван!
А может это изношенность форсунок, которые сливают в обратку? Нужно измерить равномерность обратки с форсунок.
great video is there a follower or a rod between the cam and the pump? i had a diy guy with a subaru gdi that rebuilt the engine and now now start ..it was towed in to me and he forgot to put the follower under the hp pump lol got him on his way:)
I have seen banjo bolts with a spring and ball check valve to control the return flow as well as ones with a restrictor threaded into the bolt or the bolt just made with a small hole. I replaced the original Perkins pump with an electric pump on the S-65 Genie we had because it didn't want to run when it got below 1/4 tank of fuel and we kept electric pumps in stock so it was quicker to install the electric than to get the factory pump. They might well be cooling the injectors with the excess fuel flow. I know Deutz did that. Deutz had a specified minimum return fuel flow to keep the injectors and cylinder head cool. Detroit Diesel did the same thing. The fitting coming out of the head for the fuel return was a restricted fitting that had a small hole in it. People would replace it with a normal fitting and the injectors wouldn't have enough back pressure to operate properly.
hi are the injectors not leaking off collapsing fuel rail. don't change fuel pump will need injectors
Just asking, what was the fuel pressure reading with the new electric pump?🤔
Glad you are back or maybe I missed one, lol! Awesome video but where is your whiteboard??
Wouldn't there be a way to measure the lift of the camshaft lobe for the pump?
I did...compared it to the known good. Not very conclusive.
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Хотелось бы подробнее...
@@engeneer_ru5827 I’m assuming he used a dial indicator to measure the lift of the lobe
almost like it was sucking something up at the pickup or filter and losing flow until shutoff again. could also be something leaking fuel into the crank case, I assume the oil has been checked though.
something like bad pump diaphragm, that may also diesel wet the arm and make it wear fast( but I'm no diesel fella)
There's got to be something that adjusts the fuel pressure to 10 PSI at the output of the low pressure pump. What did the electric fuel pump put out? Possibly the return line from the injector pump has or had a restrictor on it's return output? Not knowing this system, I'm guessing.
All I know is that it's running fine with the electric pump haha
Ivan is a genie at mechanics. Bet you never heard that one before.
I'll show myself to the door.
thanks for your support :)
Maybe some moving part in the pump failed, which put extra stress on the camshaft, causing that to wear out?
Pump plunger was still moving fine...not sure.
Ivan..the coolest diagnostician ever to put on a hard hat and a pair of shades.😎👍
:D
seems like there should be a back pressure spring in the injector pump to bleed off extra pressure and also to circulate cool fluid through the injector pump and injectors. so mabe the spring is stuck or has lost its gumption. the cummins vp44 originally had a weak lifter pump that didnt have enough volume and pressure to open the back pressure valve and circulate cool fluid through it especially at wot
Isn't there a valve in the returnline after the injektors like VW transporter diesels have.
Pressure release valve. They are used as a safety device to allow a drop in fuel pressure if too high.
yes the pressure is calculated by the flow and the diameter of the return line. although its possible the cam is worn i doubt it. there is an inline filter before the pump and a secondary after it. if there is any restriction the flow wont be enough and the pressure low. the thing to do is a suction side restriction test. pretty easy just tee the line at the inlet of the pump and hook a vacuum guage up.anything over 1 or 2 inches of vacuum you got a problem. could be anything including a fuel fill cap. but that test is king. also any air leak on the suction side will cut down flow and pressure. while doing the suction test just sqeeze yje line at the tank the vacuum should rise up then hold.
But with the return line pinched, the pressure only went to 10psi, vs 20psi on the good one. Not a restriction.
Maybe carry out a leak off test of the injectors too. High leak back will present as a low pressure fault.
@@dmdaithim That is correct. I suspect one or more of the fuel injectors is leaking. This does not mean more fuel is going in the return line. This means a sticking injector will bleed off fuel pressure into the cylinder and not go to the return line thus reducing return pressure. On this engine excess fuel from the fuel injectors and fuel injection pump flows thru the fuel return line and back to the fuel tank to aid in cooling the injectors and ensures any trapped air is bleed off in the injection pump and injectors. However if one or more injectors is faulty the fuel return pressure will drop as the injector tip is leaking between injections. It does not take much as fuel is not compressible and any minor dribble at the injector tip will drop the pressure in the return line. It will get worse when you speed up the engine so you will not see any increase in fuel pressure when closing off the return line.
@@glenncox3986 Engine starts too easily. If the injectors leak into the cylinder, it starts poorly!
@@engeneer_ru5827 That's exactly why the engine quits running after bring ing up to speed. No backpressure means no fuel pressure.
Had an older Pontiac with similar problem worn cam lobe
Good old Baldwin filters. My place of work used to cut a lot of steel for them. Like in the millions of tons.
Not saying this 1 is the same, but I've worked on various brands of HD equipment w the Perkins engine, and the regulator was built in to the HP pump valve body, internally. If that fails, you buy a new HP pump. Note that these machines were MUCH older than that 07.. Anyways, you fixed it. :)
I love ordering OEM parts and getting some junk made Saturday morning in Egypt and all the workers where out on kegger the night before 🤣
Ivan great video is there thech info on this tipe of machines?
I was already thinking fuel pump lobe/eccentric. A oil analysis should show elevated metals, or cutting open the oil filter should show a lot of pretty glitter if the lobe is worn so much that the pump aint pump'n
Could it be an injector issue, or sealing vanes within the injection pump itself? I'm not familar with these inline pumps, but I'm a little familar a Stanadyne DB2 pumps and injectors. I'd test one of the high pressure lines going to the injector. I'm guessing those injectors pop at around 5500-6000 psi. Since you're not getting a good return on the return line, it makes me belive that you may not be getting enough fuel pressure to the injectors. Those injectors shed the excess fuel charge into the return line. If they are not shedding off fuel, there may not be enough fuel pressure getting to them. There should be three stages of pumps. The pump you replace should feed the internal low pressure pump. That pump should step up the pressure to around 500-700psi. That internal pump then feeds the internal high pressure pump, which should step the pressure to 7000-8000 psi. Again, this could be all wrong. I know that there is a lot more moving parts, and probably a whole different way these inline pumps work verses a rotorary pump. The injectors should be similar in operation though, and how they shed off excess fuel into the return line.
Great video Ivan!! Did you happen to get a pressure reading with the electric pump?? That certainly will have different flow characteristics, but just wondering if it would be higher or lower...
Whier is the mian hydrualic pump located please
Question I have a genie so s60 wont steer while u driving same time
Earlier this year I had a similar problem with a backhoe with an electric lift pump. Mine was surging under load ...lacking fuel/sucking air. I bought a $33 Chinese pump, and it wouldn't run at all. OEM pump was 10x $. I bought a different $35 pump and same result. Put the original pump back on and did some more testing by clamping lines.... couldn't figure it out because it only happened under heavy load. I used a brake vacuum and could suck fuel from the tank. While testing I found out this injection pump has a lift pump of it's own that will pull 17 in Hg vacuum if I clamp the supply hose. I ended up running it until it wouldn't run at all, then started disconnecting fuel lines and heard ssssuuuuuP. The hose from the tank to the water separator was plugged. The suction from the injector pump was drawing air in wherever it could (the filter gasket I think). Blew the plugged line out with compressed air and works perfect now. All I could figure was the Chinese lift pumps had a weaker spring and didn't have as much suction as the original. I could have had a free fix, but it cost me about $110 in 2 pumps and a filter...oh well, probably needed the filter anyway, and now I have 2 spare lift pumps. Considering the cost of a pump from the dealer, I figured I could try 10 China pumps.
The lift pump only primes the injector pump and must supply enough diesel for all the engines operating revolutions and load conditions. The injectors return to tank or bleed line is not to cool the injectors but returns excess fuel between the injector pump and the actual pop pressure of each injector. Eg: The differential pressure between the injector pump and the injectors. On the problem engine you are dealing with it is apparent the fuel lift pumps flow and pressure is your main issue there. A little comment from a retired Automotive Engineer that specializes in diesel engines. Good luck with the electric fuel pump.
Yes there is no regulator it's clearance think it's cam lobe or partially open check valve , I don't know you checked the fuel filter
Great video that did you do about the drive
Next episode!
just go to NAPA and get a 12V pump they are around $50 and you can get the PSI you want clear down to 1.5 psi. they also have filters and regulators.
Nice job as always
Ivan , Genie certified technician ..
Must get the paper from Genie
I like the solution!... Now just fabricate a nice face plate for the mounting hole in the block at the cam and you will look better than brand new.
Great content Ivan 👍
Glad you enjoyed it! Part 2 gets better :)
You’re getting to be a pro at these lifts. Great video brother, keep them coming.
I was starting to wonder if there was a fault at the tank end, restricting the feed to the engine pump.
Is it likely the reference genie was worn as well, so 10psi was lower than it should have been.
Maybe 20psi was the propper level, so the return line could waste pressure and the system still work?
Don't i talk a lot of crap lol :-D
I had a feeling when this video got to the low pressure pump not working right that a small cheap electric inline pump would make an appearance.
I did the same thing with a boat I used to have. Janky mechanical pump that leaked and never worked right, just bypassed and installed a small electric pump. 100% fixed.
Ivan good video. Nothing like GDI systems. I’m surprised that the low side failed instead of the high side where the highest pressures are. Strange that the cam would wear that much. Did you compare the lever on the pump from the other Genie to this one and were they the same? Anyway you and the wife have a happy and safe thanksgiving and both stay well. Artie 😊
Not GDI But Just Regular Diesel MPFI
Two completely different cam shafts.
good to seea diesel for once... i reckon you have a faulty injector letting to much diesel leak back....
hard work A+ goodjob more bolts and nuts
One day you're going to find yourself becoming a plant mechanic at a factory.
Noooooo...
He is great where he's at
I like working outside :)
Hey Ivan. Love your work, and these construction machine diags. Most likely a worn cam lobe...I wonder if someone hooked a new lift pump underneath the cam lobe by mistake at some stage and wore the lobe away?🤔..lol😂
Intentional cliff hanger or did the camera quit?
I thought it a bit odd too, but I think the caption 'Bonus footage preview' indicated still more to come! ;-)
Had that happen on a '71 Hornet. Lobe went bad. Had to install electric fuel pump.
I'm surprised he didn't go straight to the fuel filter first.
And your reverse problem is likely related to a Hydraulic solenoid. Check for codes and recalibrate the joysticks then go for the solenoid.
I can't imagine why the cam lobe would be worn, certainly these units get regular oil changes🤣😁😂. Good idea with the electric pump. I've seen some guys use those on lawn/garden tractors if the vacuum fuel pump dies.
Reminds me of Mike Becker's VW that had the worn camshaft.
Why diesel engines some time makes black smoke whats wrong
Maybe the pump springwas sticking open
How can it even run AT ALL with 0 psi fuel pressure ?????
As long as there is fuel at the injector pump, then it will run :)
Many older Diesels would just siphon fuel from the tank, no lift pump.
Because there is no Russian frost!
That motor is built by Shabiru.
Chevrolet camshafts used to be made of cheese....but they were uniformly soft so the engine’s performance would just decline over time, until you got fed up and rebuilt it.
My guess is that the known good engine was taking care of better than the new one they bought it's a pity as I remember the days when Perkins were brilliant you couldn't kill them
I think LINK BELT EXCAVATORS used Perkins...very good on fuel consumption.
@@mikefoehr235 ya very good engines especially the ones made in France
@@neilmurphy845 Did not know that the French made some of them.
@@mikefoehr235 ya I think they did I'm not 100% on that
oh!
Push back!
Like #154
Thanks for the video!
Ok
Anything with that Perkins engine name plate means it will probably be un killable we have a tractor on are farm that is 50 year's old and I'm told my foster mam bought it cheap 20 years ago and Johnny has owned it another 19 years and he never changed the oil or anything until recently and it never broke the old diesel's were the best those old Massey Fergusons 133s with a Perkins diesel are one is a AD3-456 I think it's called
Uh oh!
No no... you made an assumption.. And assumptions are the mother of all screw ups... Clearly we need a follow up video of you checking that lobe... 😉🙂
i seriously doubt that's it. shouldda did a suction side vacuum test.