@leovaeg the marketing department I'm 100% sure doesn't play and have just a vague idea of the game. The other departments (game designer, painters, sculptures, writers) probably play, but in a very casual way.
feels like a very obvious loophole when even in 9th choosing a chaos war band (say Thousand Sons for instance) would give all your Heretic Astartes models the Thousand Sons keyword AND when you chose one of the cults it would confer a keyword for that too.
If they wanted to prevent divergent chapters from using it they should have put that "while running a * insert codex divergent army * all units in that army have the * Insert divergent chapter * Keyword. At least thats how I see it.
I kinda dont want that for a stupid reason sometimes i enjoy bringing a codex detatchement with my dark angels. Never knew i could get the new buffs, because that just seems against the spirit of the rule. I have played dark angels for years I will keep playing then so the thought wouldnt have crossed my mind to say "Well they are ultramarines now"
@@muellermat Trouble is, you wouldn't have thought to do it, some degenerate would and unfortunately you need to rule against that "common sense" etc always falls to the wayside of compettetive degeneracy. Though it would suck for you I'd have to agree that keywording divergent chapters is the only way and GW should juts make actual codexs for those chapters with all units to stop this double dipping two books.
I feel like realistically people are mad at the wrong thing. Maybe I'm projecting but the bigger issue I think is that running the flavourful units as of right now is less appealing than not running them. There have been lists featured before on the channel that have had 1, maybe 2 unique units -- a lot of the Dark Angels lists for some time (as far as I recall) were almost exclusively Azrael with generic marines. When factions that have recently received nerfs that shot their winrates straight down are "performing" using none of their specific units it kind of feels like a slap in the face.
The simple fix would be to give all your Adeptus Astartes units the [whatever chapter] keyword when you chose it during list creation. it used to do that in 9th
Maybe, but “my Dark Angels aren’t as good as Raven Guard” is a pretty entitled complaint to me when my Raven Guard haven’t been as good as your Dark Angels for the entire edition prior to now, and basically every edition prior. You’re basically saying “we’re not the best chapters (along with BA, Wolves and BT) for the first time ever and I’m mad.
I cannot talk for others. As for myself, I am just annoyed that one of the best factions in the game currently, Blood Angels, gets to not only have +2S +1A but also +1 to wound by simply not running some specific units, and just running other very similar units, because the depth of the SM unit list is so large that you can even find duplicates of units for the same role. It is clearly an unintended consequence and it screws the balance even more with respect to the always hard to balance SM macrofaction.
Beyond it being an error or not, it certainly shows how strong of a change that is if all those people are going “you know, I don’t really need Thunderwolf Cavalry or Deathwing Knights in my list, +1 to wound is better” Maybe it was the wrong change to begin with, especially because you’re not really incentivized to play codex compliant, you’re incentivized to play UM with Guilliman
Completely agree. Now we just see genuinely strong UM. Meanwhile everyone else in the codex still isn't competitive due to their weird insistance on making them all separated, even within their own codex.
@@Payomeke I think ur full of shit. UM pays a premium of 345 to benefit from double army rule, which require UM to have at least 2 bricks of fire power after using 17% on a singular model. T9 4++ is not a good defensive stat and 3+ revive is not a guarantee
@@deamzhang7338yeah I think people just hate on the ultramarines still. For no real reason. The returned primarchs should be epic and game defining. I dont have him in my list. I don’t have calgar in either. I have both models. Actually I have all the epic hero’s for the ultras. I love them and wanted all the characters for my chapter but that doesn’t mean I need to use them all the time. I like to list build and come up with fun lists that arnt tournament level but that’s ok. Not everything has to be competitive level.
Space wolves already have access to lance for their thunder wolves, so the decision to not take them and go full codex space marine units is an entirely flavor choice imo. I think it’s cool for successor chapters and if +1 to wound on one unit 5 times per game is really such a big deal then maybe buff the other units to where it isn’t. Like it’s good, but if people are swapping units to get it it’s probably not entirely for meta reasons. This is for space wolves at least. Idk how it looks from the other divergent chapters POV.
Spamming blade guard in blood angels for the +1 to wound is very powerful when you add +2 strength on the charge. It means even scouts with combat knives are wounding terminators on 2s
Non divergent divergent chapters. Its great for meta gamers and noone else. Codex marines still get shafted while divergent get their fluff taken away. Should have just been separate codexes imo
“Fluff taken away” only works for Black Templars who completely disregard the Codex or the Deathwatch for self explanatory reasons. Anyone looking at this saying “Red/Green Ultramarines are real!” don’t know what the 6th - 9th Companies are.
they are subfactions they do not need their own codexes but I agree there should be benefits for codex using codex compliant in codex complaint detachments
Astartes are winning more places at top tables than any other army. They've got a 52% win rate since this change. And 9:11ths of astartes armies going to the top table are ultramarines lists. So pretending this rules update is is somehow favoring divergent chapters OR hurting vanilla is laughable. ADDITIONALLY, it gives players whose chapters who lost all their rules moving from 9th to 10th the ability to actually represent those chapters the way they are represented in the fluff. For instance, I now have my counter-charging hyper-aggressive, melee-preference, siege army of the Minotaurs back as a playable presence on the field.
On one hand, it's nice for a divergent chapter player who doesn't have access to the chapter specific models (due to not a big collection) can get a buff. On the other hand, it makes every divergent chapter model need to be materially stronger than any default space marine unit to justify their existence in the face of the +1 wound bonus. Sangyinary Guard better be strong as hell to make up for the fact that if you took the generic alternative that fills a similar niche, your whole army gets a buff.
I mean it is not always a 16% boost. I play chaos knights and damn does it hurt having a t12 or t13 model get wounded on 5s by some basic bolter fire. Literally doubled the damage I take from s6 and bellow weapons
The reliance on D6 is why resolving combat is so complicated. If you are used to playing other systems it is insane that to resolve a single shot you are rolling to hit, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, rolling to wound, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, then a save, probably modified, then maybe a FNP. For one shot! Madness...
the thing is, that sometimes an army's theme isn't tied into their unique units. you can still have a very on-theme blood angels army with just Jump intercessors, generic jump captains, Jump Chaplain, Vanguard Vets, etc. throw in some Tanks and Blood Angels Assault terminators(because rules-wise, they're just glammed up SM assault terminators) and you've got a still thematic BA list that can pull these shenanigans.
If you don’t take any chapter specific datasheets then sure they should have access to the new oath of moment boost. The major advantage they had was being able to take usually just outright better datasheets than core marines. Detachments without chapter locked units are just a different rule set theoretically anyone can use. You have more options as a marine player to use these detachments. You choosing to not take it in a competitive environment is your decision especially since they aren’t particularly that strong comparatively.
@ except it always had access to all space marine units, these units could always be ran in the BA detachment and in general are usually worse on average than the BA specific units. Not including BA units or characters functionally means any space marine player can play the “blood angels” detachment. This edition has been very clear on making the rules agnostic from the paint scheme. If an ultramarine player wants to run the liberator assault force and not run any blood angels units then that should be fine. You impose quite a few restrictions on yourself to utilize these niche combos so allow the players who are clever enough to restrict themselves that much and still succeed to be rewarded for clever list building and playing.
@@TimeMaster0 Would you agree the main weakness of standard SM is the lack of strong melee options? I believe the problem stems from divergent marines being more melee capable by a large margin.
As another Black Templars player, agreed. If there's going to be a point to having the divergent Chapters exist then there has to be differences. Let +1 to wound be the Codex Astartes buff and do something else for the divergent Chapters.
As a fellow Templars player, I see no problem with this and I honestly like not seeing Helbrecht in every single list ever fielded in this edition. Missing out on Sword Bros and Crusader Squads is a good trade off for "fluffiness" if it means that the chapter's leadership won't be fighting random ork mobs on some trashheap planet in every single game.
Yes, probably. It's pretty clearly a loophole going against the spirit of the change. I don't see it lasting long. I expect an Errata to specifically exclude divergent chapter detachments as a whole.
my FLGS already said for its tournament events if you are playing a Divergent detachment you will not get to use new Oath. They tend to do things in the spirit of changes as opposed to letting people be overly meta-gamey. Its why I love giving them my business.
No. Running a core chapter with a divergent chapter's detachment rules is rules as intended by the designers. The purpose of the buff to codex compliant chapters was to make up for their lack of access to divergent specific units. It was always intended that any Space Marine army could take any Space Marine detachment, regardless of if they are codex compliant or divergent. Not to say that there isn't an imbalance caused by the new rule that doesn't need to be corrected. I'm just pointing out that the current problem is not against the spirit of how Space Marines are supposed to be and that segregating the divergent chapters from the codex chapters is actually the move against the developers intentions. My solution, before GW unveiled the changes to oath of moment, to the power discrepancy between codex and divergent chapters would have been to have different points values for units depending on if they were taken in a core or divergent army.
If i take standard space Marines units and paint them pink I can play them as Blood Angels...is my choise. With standard blue space Marines you can also play any of Blood Angels or Dark Angels detachment since start of 10th edition. Since there is no rule how to paint your models, you can play what you want unless you take special units and characters.
@@falsehero2001 no Detachments are meant to be only used by the army that they where given to or else Tyranids should be able to use the New Genestealer detachment
Given what I know of GW and my historical experience with them, I would argue that there is no way this was intentional. First, GW would never push a playstyle that actively incentivizes NOT using chapter specific models. It's completely counter to their "sell, sell and sell some more" mentality. Second, let's be real: 10th has been a very mixed bag and nowhere else is this more evident than with rules failings like this. With the Q&A team effectively a thing of the past, more and more glaring things like this are slipping through the cracks. Can all but guarantee this is "patched" within the next 3 months.
This is how it was for previous editions, and personally I liked it way more. There was still meta chasing but it wasn't as bad, and it made it more encouraging to make cool and fun themed lists instead of just spamming whatever was 'good'.
ya? so every faction should get a codex for their subfactions right? otherwise youre treating specifically loyalist space marine subfactions as more important than ENTIRE FACTIONS its already insane with space wolves having more unique models than some xenos and chaos factions (not counting knights) like its ridiculous. they are subfactions if we're changing anything it should be all space marines in one codex, one faction, one codex
this is just one more reason why i think it is time for the DIvergent chapters to split of from the main codex. make it so that the Divergent chapters can only use their own detachments and not able to use the improved Oath for a quick fix.
They should really start doing space marines and divergent chapters the way they did with chaos space marines, each divergent chapter gets a small list of datasheets from the core codex but changed to that specific chapter, they can only use their own detachments and then while we are at it just give them a slight unique version of oath of moment that complements their identitiy. this way GW doesnt have to play 4d chess to balance space marines, they can release more plastic crack, divergent chapter players can't ruin it for core codex players and they wont have to buy 2 codexes that will be outdated by the time they actually have them.
It is a loophole. but at the same time it does allow people to represent the armies that are divergent from the core but don't have their own units. The main abuser of this is the blood angels liberator detachment. But at the same time if you wanted to do a Biker army you are limited to only using that Dark angels detachment and if a person just ran 3 chaplins on bikes and then 6 units of outriders and no DA units he should get the benefit .
What no one is taking about is how you can’t take Deathwatch as an ally and get the +1 to wound but you can take ally Greyknights and still get the oath buff. GW never made a distinction between index or codex deathwatch units despite one not getting oath of moment rules and one that does.
Regular adepetus astartes have always been able to use any of the divergent detachments. I just don't remember at launch any space marines wanting to take the pre buffed Champions of Russ that started with no sagas and only accomplish one per battle round. Now it's a problem? The whole point of the detachment system was so your home brew chapter could use the rules they wanted. The vanilla chapters can drop their heroes to run divergent chapters anytime they want. I'm just now convinced vanilla adepetus astartes players can't help but find something to bitch about.
As a son of Sanguinius, we should not be getting the +1 to wound if we’re taking LAG. This rule was designed to help out the codex compliant chapters in keeping them relevant and giving them a rules buff. We should only get this buff if we forego ALL our special toys. I could see making an exception for characters though as the divergent chapters do infact get those.
10:10 except the “”players”” will always constantly look to twist whatever GW tries to say and intend, requiring more and more from GW to us specific wording and slice up the rules and take away freedom until you’ve turned the game into a lifeless but “”functional and balanced”” husk. all because competitive players can’t fucking be normal with literally ANYTHING.
Correct. I watched competitive metaslaves ruin the commander format in mtg. A casual, social format to hang out and do silly things with the strange cards you found, instead now is a sweaty, grindy shithaus of metaslaves trying to end the game as quickly and efficiently as they can; doing so as insultingly as possible so they can get their jollies making others unhappy while denying their opponents from even playing the game. Competitive players ruin everything they touch.
@@jimmysmith2249to be fair to MtG’s player base it’s not entirely their fault. When wotc themselves went on to basically neglect and mistreat the other more competitive 60 card formats like Modern, Legacy and Vintage while simultaneously putting way more attention onto commander, it was inevitable that those refugees of the other formats would feel forced to either shift to edh or quit entirely
I agree with you. People can blame this rule or that rule, but ultimately 9/10 problems in the setting at any given time boil down to neck beards that need to win at any cost to feel good about themselves, and crying for rule change when anything works well against them. I recently switched to heresy and have found the community much more inviting as it has minimal to no meta chasing and focuses instead on fluffy narrative lists and immersive experience.
Seriously let tournaments suck ass fuck em. The like 5% of players going to tournaments and the 25% of that 5% are ruining the game for everybody else. 10th edition is a soulless husk just so the game can get abused anyways at tournaments. Let these players ruin tournaments I’m done caring
@@thegingerspacemarine until you go to a HH event and see that 85% of lists are March of the Ancients Contemptor spam unless the event pack specifically prohibits it
I think this funky balancing act with space marines could be avoided by just making divergent chapters their own codexes like 8th. So they'll have their own army rules and detachments, etc.
We shouldnt be shoehorned into not using the units we want, thats the “you dont have any BA units so you cant use LAG”. As someone who plays successors It should be this way so you’re not shoe horned into playing with units you dont want to use.
The Detachment is not balanced around this buff the Detachment is Balanced around Blood Angels no one is shoehorning you in to anything more then any other army goes thru
I play Angels Resplendent, BA rules don't help me. We simply don't get to keep getting the best of both worlds. If we are getting either BA units or detachments then we are BA, if we get neither then we are generic marines. As it should be.
I think so far it's less of an overarching issue but a single problem case, that being 'vanilla' Blood Angels. The combo of +1 to wound for a detachment that already improves wound rolls is just a bit much. Other divergent chapters have incentives that seem to outweigh all-vanilla builds, IE BT wanting 5+++ on 20 man bricks, Azrael and DWK for DA, etc.
Space Wolves also can do quite well running all non-SW units, especially now that Outriders are much closer to filling the Thunderwolf Cavalry role. A lot of their power comes from the detachment ever since losing a lot of their weapon customisation options.
There problem is that in a lot of cases, the non-divergent units have been nerfed so hard that the only way to be competitive is to ignore unique units. What are the BT and DA win rates? Are they ripping it up or are they in fact bottom off the pile and players are finding that they are having to not play their favourite units in order to be competitive.
My inital thought to hearing people use the rule on divergent chapters was something like "Really? The rule is obviously only for codex-compliant chapters" so needless to say im good with this change
*Raises hand* I play Lamenters, when I realized I get the wound bonus despite using Liberator I was quite happy as fluff wise, as a chapter the Lamenters are pretty much; a Sanguinius descended yellow Ultramarines successor, especially post penitent crusade with there being so few left from the Badab era still counted amongst the living. I did not realize however that what I thought was a neat little quirk would turn into an actual problem? Which is a shame.
Maybe it is just because space wolf characters are way cooler, but I cannot imagine trading our unique models/units for a one unit +1 to wound. I think most of the SW community found it isn't worth trading our unique stuff for what we want to do in CoR or Stormlance.
Just treat the special chapters as their own armies again. Give them their own army rules, the whole shebang. Give them the same treatment that Chaos Space Marines have for their special chaos chapters. 4 chaos special snowflakes, 4 marine special snowflakes.
Yippee 4 new underdeveloped armies coming out before some armies have gotten the rest of their range. I swear getting an own codex is like a monkeys paw at this point. You get supposed fluff, but you lack half your army
They don't have to be quick about it. Give other armies love first. No one arguing in good faith thinks Blood Angels need an upfate over like, Votann or something.
It's really ruined everything, it's quite common. Balancing a game based on the highest level of play usually has negative results for the average player
But they don't. If you compare the numbers they use for balancing Vs say, statcheck or goonhammer, gw are clearly using much broader categories to balance. And unfortunately competitive play is the best source of balance data.
Ya know, I will never understand why 40k players who don't care for comp 40k feel the need to come in comp focused spaces and loudly declare statements that can be boiled down to "your fun is wrong!" Like I'm perfectly fine with people who don't enjoy comp play when I see people playing casual/ narrative. I'm happy they are enjoying the hobby the way they want so why can't they extend the same kindness to us who do enjoy comp play.
i agree, there is so much to gain for that + helps the weaker detachments that lack “punch” like lost and host + easier balancing bc they act more independently + gives more identity as THE prime melee marines + no weird overlaps like oath and death company auto reroll hits
Doing away with selectable subfaction keywords is what enabled this, along with putting all of the Loyalist Chapters in the same codex. I get that GW has spent the last decade trying to make progressively lighter rule sets for their games, but there has to be an absolute minimal point where the return on investment ceases.
Then again, the core design principle for the entire faction this edition was "Doesn't matter what your dudes look like, play any detachment you like". Punishing the random Iron Fist successor player for going with Dark Angel's biker detachment, because his dudes use a lot of bikes and he just likes using them, when most balance problems stem from divergent units instead of divergent detachments, is silly.
4:43 playing the Deathwatch detachment without Deathwatch specific units, is the same as playing without an army rule. The Deathwatch army rule only affects Deathwatch specific units, save for enhancements and 2-3 stratagems.
Don't think of it as giving Divergent chapters acess to the new oath of moment, think of it as giving codex marines acess to the divergent chapter detachments.
I wonder if a good compromise would be requiring a divergent chapter to have a unique character. probably not, since the successor chapter "can't" have access to unique characters flavor wise. GW could require some amount of chapter specific units but I don't like that because I like how open list building is
@@geetr-weezerd yeah bit of an odd case if folks insist on the character being who they normally represent instead of suspiciously similar oc or something who just happens to have the same datasheet
Or perhaps to word that better you can choose between having acess to divergent chapter units and detachements but no boosted oath. Standard detachments and heroes and boosted oath, and no unique characters at all but all detachments and boosted oath
I’ve been trying to figure out how to run my space wolf successor chapter, and this rule change really seemed like it was made for me so I’m hoping they don’t change that any time soon. At the start of 10th I said I wanted to use only new primaris units but with space wolf rules and this is literally exactly what I wanted. I just hope they can balance it to where I can still make it feel like I’m running my own primaris successor and not space wolves or ultra marines. The whole concept seems a lot more like how I was encouraged to make my own chapter in 9th, so I’m a fan.
People complain when blood angels spam death company and people now complain when death company is getting left out! Do you all just miss inferno pistols and power fists that much?
Honestly, I feel like the OoM change should have excluded Ultramarines as well as divergent chapters. Yes, it does then nerf the smurfs pretty hard, but the boost was supposed to be for the less-played chapters, but right now it just means you're so heavily incentivized to run Grandpa Smurf in your lists that it doesn't feel like a buff to anyone else. Anyone figuring out how to make solid use of the change _without_ taking Ultramarines is going above and beyond, and I tip my hat to them. I definitely will be trying out LAG without BA units myself at least once before they close the loophole, just to see how it works.
I remember when I started 9th, I thought it was quite clever how my units already had the heretic astartes keyword, gained the thousand sons keyword when I chose them, and gained a cult keyword when I chose one of the cults. I'm honestly baffled to hear this isn't how it works elsewhere. you'd think that when you assemble your army list, upon choosing your chapter to gain access to its special rules, all your generic space marine units would also gain that chapter keyword
It definitely helped my Anvil list out this past weekend. 3-2 with only one blowout loss (really bad matchup when you pick up 10 terminators before you even get your first turn).
I really wish I hadn’t chosen Space Marines as my second army once my primary army became super op early edition. They have been an infuriating mess since day 1.
Ultramarines should be a codex non compliant ik that sounds dumb but the amount they have over literally every other codex compliant chapter is ridiculous
It all comes down to how many unique characters/units you have and how powerful they are. Ultramarines were strong *before* the change, now they're one of the best armies in the game.
@@Xynth25 and it’s gonna cause every other space marine chapter to be nerfed into the ground. It’s literally the same as what was happening w divergent chapters before the change
@ it’s not the same extent of a problem but it’s the same problem. Why tf would u take any other chapter that has literally a quarter of the unique datasheets
3:58 I swear I saw someone talking about this loophole RIGHT after the balance update was released and figuratively screaming at GW to update ALL divergent chapters' datasheets to fix this.
basically this will boil down to whether the divergent chapters' non-character rules are broken with the new oath, or if the loss of the characters is "penalty enough"
I started playing in 10th with Salamanders. I used to lose most of my games, winning only once every three times or so with friends who had also just begun playing. I never meant that I wanted mine to be the strongest faction in the game, but I did want to feel like everyone in my group was around the same level aside from personal skill (you know, something balanced where choosing a certain army didn't automatically give you an edge). I'm happy the change came since now I feel like I can keep up with everyone better; though it did feel a bit bad when a friend of mine ran the BA + new OoM combo. It felt a bit bad because it looked like he was trying to twist the rules to get a piece of the cake too; except my army was given the cake because it was hypoglycemic I do like the idea of the new OoM being used as a way to run successor or homebrew chapters, but it's a bit sad that so many people would be willing to give away the fluff of their factions just to gain a little further edge to win. Everyone can have fun and enjoy the hobby their own way, of course; but sometimes it feels not like I'm playing Warhammer with someone, but rather, some sort of rules lawyer minigame with optimization elements
Rules as written they can not: In the designer notes in the DA codex it states the following when speaking about the Army rule the Unforgiven: The rules presented in this section assume that the ADEPTUS ASTARTES units in your army are from the Dark Angels Chapter, but they can also be used to represent any Dark Angels successor Chapter, such as one described in the background section of this book, or even one of your own invention. Furthermore in the detachment “Unforgiven Taskforce” it states: “Your army can include DARK ANGELS units, but it cannot include any ADEPTUS ASTARTES units drawn from any other Chapter.” which means when put together with the SM Army rule “Space Marine Chapter: “an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit has a second Faction keyword on its datasheet, that Faction keyword is the name of that unit’s Chapter. For example, MARNEUS CALGAR has both the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and ULTRAMARINES Faction keywords, and is therefore from the Ultramarines Chapter” and “You cannot include units from more than one Chapter in your army.” which means They can not be in those detachments AND not be cr that faction. Which would then mean they CAN NOT use the +1 to wound.
Hear me out. Outside of the tournament scene, this seems like a really cool way to field custom chapters. Imagine new BA successors with the doctrines, but no access to Baal armories. Or BT successors commissioned by High Lords, without doctrinal imput from BT. This could be amazing for special play. As a fun of non special character your own make fluff, this seems fun. OUTSIDE TOURNAMNETS. I have given up on GW balance.
Outside of tournaments you can do wtf you want, so whether they change this or not will not affect you at all. Also, you do not need rules to creatw your custom chapter, just take the normal rules and apply fluff to them. This has to be pathed because it is a balabce nightmare. It was intended to give non divergent chapters a boost to catch up with divergent chapters, not to increase the overall power level of SM, already the most powerful macrofaction in the game.
Dude, I gave uo on GW balance. I tried Sm, custards. Death guard. Every game in 10th felt like a gotcha, I won only one game and enjoyed none. I guess what you are saying, however, is that GW is incapable of balancing the game. It relies on shit balance to fuel impulse sales by competitive whales.
@@tomaskapel2287 What I am saying is that if you want to use this rule outside of tournaments (as you mentioned), there is nobody stopping you, no matter what GW does. You are the one mentioning "outside tournaments". Did you just forget or is this more like a labyrinth than a train of thought?
@@tomaskapel2287 If you have played that many games of 10th and you didn't enjoyed a single one, either you are the problem or you should just stop? Why are you putting yourself through this? Is GW holding you hostage? Go and play other edition, or other game. Not sure why you felt the need to tell us your sad story, but it doesn't change the point that I am trying to make: Small details of balance only matter for tournaments. For amateur games between friends, it is as simple as "Hey, let's not abuse this rule." "Ok bet". It is really that simple. We have plenty of house rules because we enjoyed the games more in that way. So far GW hasn't sent any squad to silence us.
I assumed taking the divergent detachments gave the Marines the associated chapter keyword. Adding that would be better, I think. And I say that as someone who actually already didn't play any BA specific units
Eh, I'm pretty sure we went into 10th Edition that you could paint your models how you want but it wouldn't affect detachments etc so I don't really see the issue with this rule. Not every divergent chapter needs to always need the unique characters or units but then you do also not get to run the models you potentially like or want in your list
The Detachments are made for the codex they are used for the rule the army rule is just that the codex army rule you cant be thinking its ok for Space Marines to swap between codexes and mix them up while not being fully ok whit Chaos to do the same
@ All subfactions being able to use any detachment is also what GW prouded themselves with on edition launch. Punishing people for doing it in Marines would be silly.
I think there's some evidence that it is intentional. There was a recent White Dwarf article with a dev interview about how detachments are made and they said something to the effect of "we want marines to experiment with various detachment playstyles regardless of their army paint scheme" I think it was White Dwarf #506, the one with the 4 player 40k rules. They were analyzing ork detachments, but they mentioned wanting to incentivize marines to try many playstyles.
This is 100% intentional (and still won't make marines the winningest of factions.) The rule is very clearly and specifically worded. I know its in-vogue to make out like GW don't know what they are doing, but they knew what they were doing with this one.
The divergent chapters should be there own codex not a supplement. Just put the generic space marine unit datasheets with the armys. That way they can point the units that do better with those chapters better.
#1 - either retract RG's power up, or increase his cost to reflect his interaction with OoM (and I'm saying this as a Smurf player) #2 - restrict the OoM buff to armors using the formations "of the Codex", as in just the ones from Space Marines. It limits this type of abuse AND is fluff compliant, since the Codex Astartes is supposed to be a work of tactical and strategic genius. That makes it so divergents can choose to be their unique snowflake selves with the attendant enhancements OR toe the Codex line and get the OoM buff, not both. These BOTH need done.
Wow a Desolation Squad out of left field, you don't really see those anymore. Why don't we see Devastation Squads though? Yeah they'd have the Castellan Launcher but you could take a couple Las Cannons with the Missile Launchers and an entire extra Scout Squad because they kinda over nerfed the Desolation Squads.
Even on indirect hitting on 4+, with Oath+ you’re getting 75% hits and with +1 to W, it’s just a ton of volume that wounds on 5’s worst case scenario! Usually if you pump that into even SME you’re on 2’s to W…tons of saves AP be damned. It’ll still hurt!
The biggest persistent issue it seems likely to be the dynamic between trying to sell models, trying to balance and rebalance gameplay constantly based on win rates, and trying to sell existing models. Game design is difficult enough as it is.
As someone who started playing in 3rd, when the usage of special characters was actively discouraged, either through making them not tournament legal, or by intentionally giving them overpriced and ineffective, but fluffy, rules… I really really really like seeing competitive armies that don’t have named canon characters again, and giving a good reason to make your own chapter, rather than just going with one of the pre-made chapters. HOWEVER, over the past two decades, GW has done a 180 on canon named characters/factions can “your dudes” and they will likely try to undo this. Ironically the focus on your own custom characters and the discouragement of named canon characters is one of the reasons I stuck with 40k and ignored Warmhordes when that got popular, and it makes me sad to see 40k doing the exact same thing that Warmhordes did to turn me off back then.
All they have to do is say you lose the bonus to OoM if you use any [divergent chapter] units or select any [divergent chapter] Supplement Detachments Or whenever you select a [Divergent Chapter] Detachment, any units that only have the faction keyword of Adeptus Astartes & no other chapter keyword, will also gain the [Divergent Chapter] keyword. Edit: wording
Me and a buddy played my World Eaters with Vessels of Wrath against his Black Templars (generic). Had he deployed a bit better it would’ve been closer, but Juggalord with VoW and 6 E8B is insane.
Great video! Yes I agree this loophole needs closed immediately. The intention behind this rule is being manipulated. It needs to only be playable by the codex chapters using only the codex detachments.
I could see it get errata'd out. More codex-compliant chapters could also probably use more characters (outside of proxying as UM), though - even if just to carve out a niche.
To me flavor wise it is a watered down way to make successor chapters but still i mean the reason before this data slate to play blood angels or space wolves and the like over chapters like ultra marines or salamanders was the "divergent" chapters special data slates
I think this shows a huge failing of 10th Ed. The space marine faction has kinda been broken since day 1 and there's not much that can be done you fix it without adding more detachments or adding subfactions back into the game
I think it shouldn't be a thing. I think the way to fix it is to say that if you run a divergent chapter detachment OR if you run any divergent units, then you can't use it. It's probably a miss and I can't for the life of me believe that GW was sitting there going "yes, we should let Blood Angels get +1 to wound along with their shenanigans".
lol a + 1 to wound has done what 10 000 years couldn't, reminds me of all the space marines who painted red X's on their shoulder pad after the 3.5 chaos codex came out
As a Space Wolf player. I still think these should be allowed. Before the reccent buffs he core marine unit were already better than our own, and of all the marine detachments - we have the worst. After the thundercav nerfs 6 months ago, we have essentially no reason to play Wolves when vanilla marines are so good. To stop us accessing the +1 to wound would feel like a big kick in the teeth
There’s nothing stopping codex compliant chapters from running the supplemental detachments. The argument was always “it’s not fair they can use generic detachments with their unique datasheets”. But now they move the goal post and say the issue is they can use their detachments and get the the +1 to wound. Even though the salamander player can run champions of Russ as well. I see nothing wrong with this.
the problem is the way that chapters work are inconsistent, and GW is consistent in being inconsistent on it right now. the first index's had restrictions on divergent marine chapters units that where specifically written into the detachment, so initially legally you could have Templar librarians in Gladius, they fixed that and made the restrictions to the chapter itself. In the official app, you cant even select those new detachments without selecting your chapter to be Templars or Blood Angels. IMO its clearly unintentional, but they need to fix it if that's the case, you should select your chapter before selecting detachment, and the chapter select unlocks the detachments, and units.
I'm already playing suboptimal DA detachments because I like their units and flavor, I'm not going to give them up for +1 to wound on a target per round. But the fact all these cool rules and units are outshone by a +1 to wound is mad.
Some people in this thread are simultaneously claiming thst they do this "for the fluff because they want to represent their custom chapter" and that they cannot just play their divergent chapter as intended because then they would be at a disadvantage. Just say that you are trying to minmax like everybody else, but you are too coward to admit it, so you need to hide behind "fluff". Oh, yeah, you CERTAINLY need +1 to wound AND +2S to play your custom chapter based on BA. It has nothing to do with it being broken, you just want "the fluff". "But i dont want to use any of the named characters or spwcial units because... Eh.. reasons, it is not like i could simply change the name of the character to make it a different person, as that would break the immersion". So why dont you use codex detachments then, painting your minis in red, a d calling them wtf you want? Well, because you want the +2S +1A from liberators. Like, come on. You are just tricking yourself, the rest of us see past the BS easily.
I have my own order of Sisters. I just picked the rules that seemed the more appropiate and changed colour schemes, names, etc. I don't need to trick anyone by saying that i truly really need BoF detschment but also the effect of the penitent host and the enhancements and strats of Hallowd Martyrs because it is really the only way to represent the order how i envision it (broken af, that is)
Banning this option is the same as forcing people to always play with special characters, and not deviate in the slightest from the Chapters that are already established with said characters (yes, there are people who paint - and play with - their marines with the colors of Successor Chapters, despite not having any type of advantage in doing so).
It was just a buff for Ultramarines. They needed an actual buff or rule to play the other core chapters. Not forced even harder to be Yellow, Red, White, etc. Ultramarines.
My best match ive ever had was relatively recent due to this change. I play Blood Angels and I've not had a single match since the change where I've taken BA specific units. Ive found terminators are stupidly overpowered with Oath in the Liberator Assault Group detachment. I had a 5 man plus a captain charge into a knight on near enough full wounds and take it out that turn with just 3 of the 5 terminators, and then the remaining 2 one punch a hellbrute that decided to heroically intervene. They then went on to basically solo the whole of enemy deployment winning the game entirely because of them. I've found my best games have made use of a repulsor executioner, a ballistus, a brutalis or two, a tech marine, and then bladeguard, junp pack assault marines, and terminators.
I'm pretty sure whoever wrote the rule wanted it to work like it is since you can only use unique units if your Army has that keyword. Why specifically go for the units if you don't want to open that back door? The bigger question is if the writers snuck it by the editor or it was intended by GW at large.
I can see how it would affect others negatively, but as a Raptors enjoyer, i like running generic lists anyway. gaining access to more detachments is not only more fun for me but also on brand for the strategically open-minded "sensible marines".
I really understand the outrage as this really feels like it is meant for the non-divergent chapters and people are abusing keywords. Overall being a non-divergent player feels bad. It feels like being a kid that can only play with the shared community bin toys while other kids get to enjoy their privately owned toys as well as the community ones. (Considering we are talking about toy soldiers here, that might actually be a bit more literal) The overall problem with the situation seems to be the nerf-centric approach GW takes with balancing. If the divergent stuff is the most played, GW nerfs it. If the non-divergent stuff is the most played (even though it is played in divergent chapter lists), it gets nerfed and even the subfactions that never had the opportunity to have that good synergy get punished as well. The solution would be to reverse the thinking, flip it on its head. Instead of GW nerfing everything that is good, they could instead buff the things that are bad. Of course, this would have to be done tactfully, otherwise we would run into another end-of-9ed scenario where everything was strong so nothing was, but that is another matter altogether.
I would say if you use any units or detachments that are not coded compliant, i.e. blood Angels, space wolves, black Templar, then you didn't get the buff, if you wanna play dark angels, but only use codex compliant units, then you can get the buff, for shooting yourself in the foot and not using your special units
Auspex Tactics: "Was it intentional by GW or not?"
GW game designer at a tournament: "Wait, can they really do that?"
90% of GW probably doesnt even play the games they work on
@leovaeg the marketing department I'm 100% sure doesn't play and have just a vague idea of the game.
The other departments (game designer, painters, sculptures, writers) probably play, but in a very casual way.
GW: *writes specific rule*
Also GW: *writes commentary that completely undermines that specific rule*
feels like a very obvious loophole when even in 9th choosing a chaos war band (say Thousand Sons for instance) would give all your Heretic Astartes models the Thousand Sons keyword AND when you chose one of the cults it would confer a keyword for that too.
@@leovaeg Big Business in the west, what a joke
If they wanted to prevent divergent chapters from using it they should have put that "while running a * insert codex divergent army * all units in that army have the * Insert divergent chapter * Keyword. At least thats how I see it.
That's the easy fix. So, probably in 6 months
It's nice to see people not getting mad at Dark Angels for once since none of our detachments are good enough to make this worth it 😂
GW should give us the updated OoM if we bring our own detachments as a favor /s
Add "models in your army gain the blood angels keyword" for the unique blood angels detachment, same for dark angels, etc.
Another good thought
I kinda dont want that for a stupid reason sometimes i enjoy bringing a codex detatchement with my dark angels. Never knew i could get the new buffs, because that just seems against the spirit of the rule. I have played dark angels for years I will keep playing then so the thought wouldnt have crossed my mind to say "Well they are ultramarines now"
@@muellermat Trouble is, you wouldn't have thought to do it, some degenerate would and unfortunately you need to rule against that "common sense" etc always falls to the wayside of compettetive degeneracy. Though it would suck for you I'd have to agree that keywording divergent chapters is the only way and GW should juts make actual codexs for those chapters with all units to stop this double dipping two books.
Or just make the divergent chapters pick a Warlord from their own ranks like most armies have to. That solves the problem.
@@karlnygren Fair just call it dark angel captain an be done with it
I feel like realistically people are mad at the wrong thing. Maybe I'm projecting but the bigger issue I think is that running the flavourful units as of right now is less appealing than not running them. There have been lists featured before on the channel that have had 1, maybe 2 unique units -- a lot of the Dark Angels lists for some time (as far as I recall) were almost exclusively Azrael with generic marines. When factions that have recently received nerfs that shot their winrates straight down are "performing" using none of their specific units it kind of feels like a slap in the face.
The simple fix would be to give all your Adeptus Astartes units the [whatever chapter] keyword when you chose it during list creation. it used to do that in 9th
Sorry not sorry. Codex Marines have been ass for two years before this. Literally over 700 days.
Maybe, but “my Dark Angels aren’t as good as Raven Guard” is a pretty entitled complaint to me when my Raven Guard haven’t been as good as your Dark Angels for the entire edition prior to now, and basically every edition prior. You’re basically saying “we’re not the best chapters (along with BA, Wolves and BT) for the first time ever and I’m mad.
I cannot talk for others. As for myself, I am just annoyed that one of the best factions in the game currently, Blood Angels, gets to not only have +2S +1A but also +1 to wound by simply not running some specific units, and just running other very similar units, because the depth of the SM unit list is so large that you can even find duplicates of units for the same role.
It is clearly an unintended consequence and it screws the balance even more with respect to the always hard to balance SM macrofaction.
@@JackDespero it completely ruins any potential to Balance the factions
Beyond it being an error or not, it certainly shows how strong of a change that is if all those people are going “you know, I don’t really need Thunderwolf Cavalry or Deathwing Knights in my list, +1 to wound is better”
Maybe it was the wrong change to begin with, especially because you’re not really incentivized to play codex compliant, you’re incentivized to play UM with Guilliman
I think UM should also be excluded from this +1 wound Oath as the rest of divergent chapters, specially with our friend Guilliman
Completely agree. Now we just see genuinely strong UM. Meanwhile everyone else in the codex still isn't competitive due to their weird insistance on making them all separated, even within their own codex.
@@Payomeke I think ur full of shit. UM pays a premium of 345 to benefit from double army rule, which require UM to have at least 2 bricks of fire power after using 17% on a singular model. T9 4++ is not a good defensive stat and 3+ revive is not a guarantee
@@deamzhang7338yeah I think people just hate on the ultramarines still. For no real reason. The returned primarchs should be epic and game defining. I dont have him in my list. I don’t have calgar in either. I have both models. Actually I have all the epic hero’s for the ultras. I love them and wanted all the characters for my chapter but that doesn’t mean I need to use them all the time. I like to list build and come up with fun lists that arnt tournament level but that’s ok. Not everything has to be competitive level.
Space wolves already have access to lance for their thunder wolves, so the decision to not take them and go full codex space marine units is an entirely flavor choice imo. I think it’s cool for successor chapters and if +1 to wound on one unit 5 times per game is really such a big deal then maybe buff the other units to where it isn’t. Like it’s good, but if people are swapping units to get it it’s probably not entirely for meta reasons. This is for space wolves at least. Idk how it looks from the other divergent chapters POV.
Spamming blade guard in blood angels for the +1 to wound is very powerful when you add +2 strength on the charge. It means even scouts with combat knives are wounding terminators on 2s
Non divergent divergent chapters. Its great for meta gamers and noone else. Codex marines still get shafted while divergent get their fluff taken away. Should have just been separate codexes imo
“Fluff taken away” only works for Black Templars who completely disregard the Codex or the Deathwatch for self explanatory reasons. Anyone looking at this saying “Red/Green Ultramarines are real!” don’t know what the 6th - 9th Companies are.
Means I get to play howling griffons. Space marines should be a single army.
they are subfactions they do not need their own codexes but I agree there should be benefits for codex using codex compliant in codex complaint detachments
@@voltix54 I mean the CSM divergents get their own...
Astartes are winning more places at top tables than any other army. They've got a 52% win rate since this change. And 9:11ths of astartes armies going to the top table are ultramarines lists. So pretending this rules update is is somehow favoring divergent chapters OR hurting vanilla is laughable.
ADDITIONALLY, it gives players whose chapters who lost all their rules moving from 9th to 10th the ability to actually represent those chapters the way they are represented in the fluff.
For instance, I now have my counter-charging hyper-aggressive, melee-preference, siege army of the Minotaurs back as a playable presence on the field.
The local tournament I played in last Saturday had 2 Ultramarines in the Top 5. It’s made a major impact
For mcragge!
and only Ultramarines! good fix for the "codex chapters"
On one hand, it's nice for a divergent chapter player who doesn't have access to the chapter specific models (due to not a big collection) can get a buff.
On the other hand, it makes every divergent chapter model need to be materially stronger than any default space marine unit to justify their existence in the face of the +1 wound bonus. Sangyinary Guard better be strong as hell to make up for the fact that if you took the generic alternative that fills a similar niche, your whole army gets a buff.
It also shows again the weakness of the d6 system, where a 16% boost can make someone go "screw my army and its themes"
I mean it is not always a 16% boost. I play chaos knights and damn does it hurt having a t12 or t13 model get wounded on 5s by some basic bolter fire. Literally doubled the damage I take from s6 and bellow weapons
The reliance on D6 is why resolving combat is so complicated. If you are used to playing other systems it is insane that to resolve a single shot you are rolling to hit, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, rolling to wound, probably with a modifier, possibly rerolling that, then a save, probably modified, then maybe a FNP. For one shot!
Madness...
It's more like a 50% boost when you go from wounding on 5 to wounding on 4
the thing is, that sometimes an army's theme isn't tied into their unique units. you can still have a very on-theme blood angels army with just Jump intercessors, generic jump captains, Jump Chaplain, Vanguard Vets, etc. throw in some Tanks and Blood Angels Assault terminators(because rules-wise, they're just glammed up SM assault terminators) and you've got a still thematic BA list that can pull these shenanigans.
If you don’t take any chapter specific datasheets then sure they should have access to the new oath of moment boost. The major advantage they had was being able to take usually just outright better datasheets than core marines. Detachments without chapter locked units are just a different rule set theoretically anyone can use. You have more options as a marine player to use these detachments. You choosing to not take it in a competitive environment is your decision especially since they aren’t particularly that strong comparatively.
The Detachment is balanced around being used by Blood Angels not standard marines this is why standard marines got this buff and not blood angels
@ except it always had access to all space marine units, these units could always be ran in the BA detachment and in general are usually worse on average than the BA specific units. Not including BA units or characters functionally means any space marine player can play the “blood angels” detachment. This edition has been very clear on making the rules agnostic from the paint scheme. If an ultramarine player wants to run the liberator assault force and not run any blood angels units then that should be fine. You impose quite a few restrictions on yourself to utilize these niche combos so allow the players who are clever enough to restrict themselves that much and still succeed to be rewarded for clever list building and playing.
@@TimeMaster0 Would you agree the main weakness of standard SM is the lack of strong melee options? I believe the problem stems from divergent marines being more melee capable by a large margin.
As a Black Templars player, yes please errata this out GW. I would have liked reroll 1s to wound on oath targets though.
As another Black Templars player, agreed. If there's going to be a point to having the divergent Chapters exist then there has to be differences. Let +1 to wound be the Codex Astartes buff and do something else for the divergent Chapters.
As a fellow Templars player, I see no problem with this and I honestly like not seeing Helbrecht in every single list ever fielded in this edition. Missing out on Sword Bros and Crusader Squads is a good trade off for "fluffiness" if it means that the chapter's leadership won't be fighting random ork mobs on some trashheap planet in every single game.
you get your multi-meltas, aren't you glad you're the vehicle specialists this edition? Iron Hands whomst?
I dont see the issue with this either. This way my guys can hit hard without having a ‘must-take’ unit in every list of every engagement size
Yes, probably. It's pretty clearly a loophole going against the spirit of the change. I don't see it lasting long. I expect an Errata to specifically exclude divergent chapter detachments as a whole.
my FLGS already said for its tournament events if you are playing a Divergent detachment you will not get to use new Oath. They tend to do things in the spirit of changes as opposed to letting people be overly meta-gamey. Its why I love giving them my business.
No. Running a core chapter with a divergent chapter's detachment rules is rules as intended by the designers. The purpose of the buff to codex compliant chapters was to make up for their lack of access to divergent specific units. It was always intended that any Space Marine army could take any Space Marine detachment, regardless of if they are codex compliant or divergent.
Not to say that there isn't an imbalance caused by the new rule that doesn't need to be corrected. I'm just pointing out that the current problem is not against the spirit of how Space Marines are supposed to be and that segregating the divergent chapters from the codex chapters is actually the move against the developers intentions.
My solution, before GW unveiled the changes to oath of moment, to the power discrepancy between codex and divergent chapters would have been to have different points values for units depending on if they were taken in a core or divergent army.
If i take standard space Marines units and paint them pink I can play them as Blood Angels...is my choise. With standard blue space Marines you can also play any of Blood Angels or Dark Angels detachment since start of 10th edition. Since there is no rule how to paint your models, you can play what you want unless you take special units and characters.
@@falsehero2001 no Detachments are meant to be only used by the army that they where given to or else Tyranids should be able to use the New Genestealer detachment
@mathiasschulze6148 your argument has nothing to do whit what he is saying
Given what I know of GW and my historical experience with them, I would argue that there is no way this was intentional. First, GW would never push a playstyle that actively incentivizes NOT using chapter specific models. It's completely counter to their "sell, sell and sell some more" mentality. Second, let's be real: 10th has been a very mixed bag and nowhere else is this more evident than with rules failings like this. With the Q&A team effectively a thing of the past, more and more glaring things like this are slipping through the cracks. Can all but guarantee this is "patched" within the next 3 months.
Sounds like GW needs to make all chapters their own codex with characters and rules strictly for them.
Spacemarines should be a single army with a single codex. Characters suck.
This is how it was for previous editions, and personally I liked it way more. There was still meta chasing but it wasn't as bad, and it made it more encouraging to make cool and fun themed lists instead of just spamming whatever was 'good'.
ya? so every faction should get a codex for their subfactions right? otherwise youre treating specifically loyalist space marine subfactions as more important than ENTIRE FACTIONS its already insane with space wolves having more unique models than some xenos and chaos factions (not counting knights) like its ridiculous. they are subfactions if we're changing anything it should be all space marines in one codex, one faction, one codex
Haha no. Big 4 will get their rules and you'll be maybe an alternative list in codex marines. They will never go down that road again after 8th.
@@kdhlkjhdlkthis guy hates flavor
this is just one more reason why i think it is time for the DIvergent chapters to split of from the main codex.
make it so that the Divergent chapters can only use their own detachments and not able to use the improved Oath for a quick fix.
There's really no problem with this. It's units vs Detachment. It's a choice and either way requires a sacrifice.
They should really start doing space marines and divergent chapters the way they did with chaos space marines, each divergent chapter gets a small list of datasheets from the core codex but changed to that specific chapter, they can only use their own detachments and then while we are at it just give them a slight unique version of oath of moment that complements their identitiy.
this way GW doesnt have to play 4d chess to balance space marines, they can release more plastic crack, divergent chapter players can't ruin it for core codex players and they wont have to buy 2 codexes that will be outdated by the time they actually have them.
Except that only happened for the cult chaos marine legions the rest of us got jack shit lol
I still think they should just make it so divergent chapters can’t use the codex detachments.
It’s the same problem with chaos. Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion get shafted.
It is a loophole. but at the same time it does allow people to represent the armies that are divergent from the core but don't have their own units.
The main abuser of this is the blood angels liberator detachment.
But at the same time if you wanted to do a Biker army you are limited to only using that Dark angels detachment and if a person just ran 3 chaplins on bikes and then 6 units of outriders and no DA units he should get the benefit .
What no one is taking about is how you can’t take Deathwatch as an ally and get the +1 to wound but you can take ally Greyknights and still get the oath buff.
GW never made a distinction between index or codex deathwatch units despite one not getting oath of moment rules and one that does.
Regular adepetus astartes have always been able to use any of the divergent detachments. I just don't remember at launch any space marines wanting to take the pre buffed Champions of Russ that started with no sagas and only accomplish one per battle round. Now it's a problem?
The whole point of the detachment system was so your home brew chapter could use the rules they wanted. The vanilla chapters can drop their heroes to run divergent chapters anytime they want. I'm just now convinced vanilla adepetus astartes players can't help but find something to bitch about.
As a son of Sanguinius, we should not be getting the +1 to wound if we’re taking LAG. This rule was designed to help out the codex compliant chapters in keeping them relevant and giving them a rules buff. We should only get this buff if we forego ALL our special toys. I could see making an exception for characters though as the divergent chapters do infact get those.
10:10 except the “”players”” will always constantly look to twist whatever GW tries to say and intend, requiring more and more from GW to us specific wording and slice up the rules and take away freedom until you’ve turned the game into a lifeless but “”functional and balanced”” husk. all because competitive players can’t fucking be normal with literally ANYTHING.
Correct. I watched competitive metaslaves ruin the commander format in mtg. A casual, social format to hang out and do silly things with the strange cards you found, instead now is a sweaty, grindy shithaus of metaslaves trying to end the game as quickly and efficiently as they can; doing so as insultingly as possible so they can get their jollies making others unhappy while denying their opponents from even playing the game.
Competitive players ruin everything they touch.
@@jimmysmith2249to be fair to MtG’s player base it’s not entirely their fault. When wotc themselves went on to basically neglect and mistreat the other more competitive 60 card formats like Modern, Legacy and Vintage while simultaneously putting way more attention onto commander, it was inevitable that those refugees of the other formats would feel forced to either shift to edh or quit entirely
I agree with you. People can blame this rule or that rule, but ultimately 9/10 problems in the setting at any given time boil down to neck beards that need to win at any cost to feel good about themselves, and crying for rule change when anything works well against them.
I recently switched to heresy and have found the community much more inviting as it has minimal to no meta chasing and focuses instead on fluffy narrative lists and immersive experience.
Seriously let tournaments suck ass fuck em. The like 5% of players going to tournaments and the 25% of that 5% are ruining the game for everybody else. 10th edition is a soulless husk just so the game can get abused anyways at tournaments. Let these players ruin tournaments I’m done caring
@@thegingerspacemarine until you go to a HH event and see that 85% of lists are March of the Ancients Contemptor spam unless the event pack specifically prohibits it
I think this funky balancing act with space marines could be avoided by just making divergent chapters their own codexes like 8th. So they'll have their own army rules and detachments, etc.
We shouldnt be shoehorned into not using the units we want, thats the “you dont have any BA units so you cant use LAG”. As someone who plays successors It should be this way so you’re not shoe horned into playing with units you dont want to use.
The Detachment is not balanced around this buff the Detachment is Balanced around Blood Angels no one is shoehorning you in to anything more then any other army goes thru
I think GW agrees with you. I think they want you playing successors with this.
I play Angels Resplendent, BA rules don't help me. We simply don't get to keep getting the best of both worlds.
If we are getting either BA units or detachments then we are BA, if we get neither then we are generic marines.
As it should be.
because that +1 to wound is bonkers! IMO should be dialed down to re-roll 1s to wound
I think so far it's less of an overarching issue but a single problem case, that being 'vanilla' Blood Angels. The combo of +1 to wound for a detachment that already improves wound rolls is just a bit much.
Other divergent chapters have incentives that seem to outweigh all-vanilla builds, IE BT wanting 5+++ on 20 man bricks, Azrael and DWK for DA, etc.
It's kinda weird though considering it's not hard to get Lance and Lethal hits.
Think so too. Three afe fine and BA is the problem boy here in the room.
Couldn’t they just faq BA with does not stack with oath?
Space Wolves also can do quite well running all non-SW units, especially now that Outriders are much closer to filling the Thunderwolf Cavalry role. A lot of their power comes from the detachment ever since losing a lot of their weapon customisation options.
What they should do is disallow both divergent keyword units and divergent detachments
It would honestly easier just to make so the detachment gives you the faction keyword of the divergent chapter.
I actually liked this for custom chapters. Gives them more flavor while not using divergent units
There problem is that in a lot of cases, the non-divergent units have been nerfed so hard that the only way to be competitive is to ignore unique units. What are the BT and DA win rates? Are they ripping it up or are they in fact bottom off the pile and players are finding that they are having to not play their favourite units in order to be competitive.
My inital thought to hearing people use the rule on divergent chapters was something like "Really? The rule is obviously only for codex-compliant chapters" so needless to say im good with this change
"If you choose any of detachments all your units get Blood Angels/Black Templars/etc faction keyword" boom XD
Worlds smallest violin for DA, BA, BT, and SW players that the codex compliant chapters can compete with them for once.
*Raises hand*
I play Lamenters, when I realized I get the wound bonus despite using Liberator I was quite happy as fluff wise, as a chapter the Lamenters are pretty much; a Sanguinius descended yellow Ultramarines successor, especially post penitent crusade with there being so few left from the Badab era still counted amongst the living.
I did not realize however that what I thought was a neat little quirk would turn into an actual problem? Which is a shame.
If you chase every new rule or Meta list you’ll learn how to win but you’ll forget how to have fun.
Maybe it is just because space wolf characters are way cooler, but I cannot imagine trading our unique models/units for a one unit +1 to wound. I think most of the SW community found it isn't worth trading our unique stuff for what we want to do in CoR or Stormlance.
nah bro YOU'RE just not having fun. Comp players love this stuff.
Just treat the special chapters as their own armies again. Give them their own army rules, the whole shebang. Give them the same treatment that Chaos Space Marines have for their special chaos chapters. 4 chaos special snowflakes, 4 marine special snowflakes.
Yippee 4 new underdeveloped armies coming out before some armies have gotten the rest of their range.
I swear getting an own codex is like a monkeys paw at this point. You get supposed fluff, but you lack half your army
They don't have to be quick about it. Give other armies love first. No one arguing in good faith thinks Blood Angels need an upfate over like, Votann or something.
Competitive 40k was the worst thing to happen to it... Scratch that second worst thing, number one will always be GW
Only if you lose
It's really ruined everything, it's quite common. Balancing a game based on the highest level of play usually has negative results for the average player
But they don't. If you compare the numbers they use for balancing Vs say, statcheck or goonhammer, gw are clearly using much broader categories to balance. And unfortunately competitive play is the best source of balance data.
Ya know, I will never understand why 40k players who don't care for comp 40k feel the need to come in comp focused spaces and loudly declare statements that can be boiled down to "your fun is wrong!" Like I'm perfectly fine with people who don't enjoy comp play when I see people playing casual/ narrative. I'm happy they are enjoying the hobby the way they want so why can't they extend the same kindness to us who do enjoy comp play.
Yeah,we should return to 7th edition for example .
As a BA player, get rid of Oath army wide, and Give us Strength and Attacks buff for all detachments
i agree, there is so much to gain for that
+ helps the weaker detachments that lack “punch” like lost and host
+ easier balancing bc they act more independently
+ gives more identity as THE prime melee marines
+ no weird overlaps like oath and death company auto reroll hits
Doing away with selectable subfaction keywords is what enabled this, along with putting all of the Loyalist Chapters in the same codex. I get that GW has spent the last decade trying to make progressively lighter rule sets for their games, but there has to be an absolute minimal point where the return on investment ceases.
Then again, the core design principle for the entire faction this edition was "Doesn't matter what your dudes look like, play any detachment you like". Punishing the random Iron Fist successor player for going with Dark Angel's biker detachment, because his dudes use a lot of bikes and he just likes using them, when most balance problems stem from divergent units instead of divergent detachments, is silly.
@@Zakading so take that Tyranid army and use Spear head detachment got you i shall do that in my next game
@@viktorgabriel2554 Bro, you goal posts aren't meant to be loaded into drop pods and launched from orbit. Use your brain and common sense.
Make divergent chapters their own armies again!
4:43 playing the Deathwatch detachment without Deathwatch specific units, is the same as playing without an army rule.
The Deathwatch army rule only affects Deathwatch specific units, save for enhancements and 2-3 stratagems.
Don't think of it as giving Divergent chapters acess to the new oath of moment, think of it as giving codex marines acess to the divergent chapter detachments.
I wonder if a good compromise would be requiring a divergent chapter to have a unique character. probably not, since the successor chapter "can't" have access to unique characters flavor wise.
GW could require some amount of chapter specific units but I don't like that because I like how open list building is
@@geetr-weezerd yeah bit of an odd case if folks insist on the character being who they normally represent instead of suspiciously similar oc or something who just happens to have the same datasheet
Or perhaps to word that better you can choose between having acess to divergent chapter units and detachements but no boosted oath. Standard detachments and heroes and boosted oath, and no unique characters at all but all detachments and boosted oath
I’ve been trying to figure out how to run my space wolf successor chapter, and this rule change really seemed like it was made for me so I’m hoping they don’t change that any time soon. At the start of 10th I said I wanted to use only new primaris units but with space wolf rules and this is literally exactly what I wanted. I just hope they can balance it to where I can still make it feel like I’m running my own primaris successor and not space wolves or ultra marines. The whole concept seems a lot more like how I was encouraged to make my own chapter in 9th, so I’m a fan.
I don't see anything stopping folk making generic armies with different detachment rules regardless of the paint job. They can just be successors.
40k players can't decide if they love or hate soup after all
People complain when blood angels spam death company and people now complain when death company is getting left out! Do you all just miss inferno pistols and power fists that much?
Honestly, I feel like the OoM change should have excluded Ultramarines as well as divergent chapters. Yes, it does then nerf the smurfs pretty hard, but the boost was supposed to be for the less-played chapters, but right now it just means you're so heavily incentivized to run Grandpa Smurf in your lists that it doesn't feel like a buff to anyone else. Anyone figuring out how to make solid use of the change _without_ taking Ultramarines is going above and beyond, and I tip my hat to them. I definitely will be trying out LAG without BA units myself at least once before they close the loophole, just to see how it works.
13:46 THIS is why you can guarantee it will be patched 😂
divergent chapters should just have different army rules and give good oath to standard ones
I remember when I started 9th, I thought it was quite clever how my units already had the heretic astartes keyword, gained the thousand sons keyword when I chose them, and gained a cult keyword when I chose one of the cults.
I'm honestly baffled to hear this isn't how it works elsewhere. you'd think that when you assemble your army list, upon choosing your chapter to gain access to its special rules, all your generic space marine units would also gain that chapter keyword
It definitely helped my Anvil list out this past weekend. 3-2 with only one blowout loss (really bad matchup when you pick up 10 terminators before you even get your first turn).
I really wish I hadn’t chosen Space Marines as my second army once my primary army became super op early edition. They have been an infuriating mess since day 1.
Ultramarines should be a codex non compliant ik that sounds dumb but the amount they have over literally every other codex compliant chapter is ridiculous
It all comes down to how many unique characters/units you have and how powerful they are. Ultramarines were strong *before* the change, now they're one of the best armies in the game.
@@Xynth25 and it’s gonna cause every other space marine chapter to be nerfed into the ground. It’s literally the same as what was happening w divergent chapters before the change
They have 4 special characters, and you compare it to whole supplement book with rules and like 30 datasheets?
@Klierowski When those characters are as strong as Guilliman, Calgar, and Uriel Ventris are? Yes.
@ it’s not the same extent of a problem but it’s the same problem. Why tf would u take any other chapter that has literally a quarter of the unique datasheets
Definitely will be, and thats a good thing. Another instance of tournament players ruining the spirit of the game by exploiting rules.
They better rewrite every bloody dark angels detachment soon, they suck
I think Lions Blade is a very good detachment with alot of utility
Damn. Company of Hunters is great now
3:58 I swear I saw someone talking about this loophole RIGHT after the balance update was released and figuratively screaming at GW to update ALL divergent chapters' datasheets to fix this.
basically this will boil down to whether the divergent chapters' non-character rules are broken with the new oath, or if the loss of the characters is "penalty enough"
I started playing in 10th with Salamanders. I used to lose most of my games, winning only once every three times or so with friends who had also just begun playing. I never meant that I wanted mine to be the strongest faction in the game, but I did want to feel like everyone in my group was around the same level aside from personal skill (you know, something balanced where choosing a certain army didn't automatically give you an edge). I'm happy the change came since now I feel like I can keep up with everyone better; though it did feel a bit bad when a friend of mine ran the BA + new OoM combo. It felt a bit bad because it looked like he was trying to twist the rules to get a piece of the cake too; except my army was given the cake because it was hypoglycemic
I do like the idea of the new OoM being used as a way to run successor or homebrew chapters, but it's a bit sad that so many people would be willing to give away the fluff of their factions just to gain a little further edge to win. Everyone can have fun and enjoy the hobby their own way, of course; but sometimes it feels not like I'm playing Warhammer with someone, but rather, some sort of rules lawyer minigame with optimization elements
Rules as written they can not:
In the designer notes in the DA codex it states the following when speaking about the Army rule the Unforgiven:
The rules presented in this section assume that the ADEPTUS ASTARTES units in your army are from the Dark Angels Chapter, but they can also be used to represent any Dark Angels successor Chapter, such as one described in the background section of this book, or even one of your own invention.
Furthermore in the detachment “Unforgiven Taskforce” it states: “Your army can include DARK ANGELS units, but it cannot include any ADEPTUS ASTARTES units drawn from any other Chapter.” which means when put together with the SM Army rule “Space Marine Chapter: “an ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit has a second Faction keyword on its datasheet, that Faction keyword is the name of that unit’s Chapter. For example, MARNEUS CALGAR has both the ADEPTUS ASTARTES and ULTRAMARINES Faction keywords, and is therefore from the Ultramarines Chapter” and “You cannot include units from more than one Chapter in your army.” which means They can not be in those detachments AND not be cr that faction. Which would then mean they CAN NOT use the +1 to wound.
Hear me out. Outside of the tournament scene, this seems like a really cool way to field custom chapters. Imagine new BA successors with the doctrines, but no access to Baal armories. Or BT successors commissioned by High Lords, without doctrinal imput from BT. This could be amazing for special play. As a fun of non special character your own make fluff, this seems fun. OUTSIDE TOURNAMNETS. I have given up on GW balance.
Outside of tournaments you can do wtf you want, so whether they change this or not will not affect you at all.
Also, you do not need rules to creatw your custom chapter, just take the normal rules and apply fluff to them.
This has to be pathed because it is a balabce nightmare. It was intended to give non divergent chapters a boost to catch up with divergent chapters, not to increase the overall power level of SM, already the most powerful macrofaction in the game.
Dude, I gave uo on GW balance. I tried Sm, custards. Death guard. Every game in 10th felt like a gotcha, I won only one game and enjoyed none. I guess what you are saying, however, is that GW is incapable of balancing the game. It relies on shit balance to fuel impulse sales by competitive whales.
@@tomaskapel2287 What I am saying is that if you want to use this rule outside of tournaments (as you mentioned), there is nobody stopping you, no matter what GW does.
You are the one mentioning "outside tournaments". Did you just forget or is this more like a labyrinth than a train of thought?
@@tomaskapel2287 If you have played that many games of 10th and you didn't enjoyed a single one, either you are the problem or you should just stop? Why are you putting yourself through this? Is GW holding you hostage? Go and play other edition, or other game. Not sure why you felt the need to tell us your sad story, but it doesn't change the point that I am trying to make: Small details of balance only matter for tournaments. For amateur games between friends, it is as simple as "Hey, let's not abuse this rule." "Ok bet". It is really that simple. We have plenty of house rules because we enjoyed the games more in that way. So far GW hasn't sent any squad to silence us.
I assumed taking the divergent detachments gave the Marines the associated chapter keyword. Adding that would be better, I think. And I say that as someone who actually already didn't play any BA specific units
You'd think the divergent chapters wouldn't be so utterly desperate to be ultrasmurfs but here we are.
Eh, I'm pretty sure we went into 10th Edition that you could paint your models how you want but it wouldn't affect detachments etc so I don't really see the issue with this rule.
Not every divergent chapter needs to always need the unique characters or units but then you do also not get to run the models you potentially like or want in your list
I honestly think having fewer named chars fielded is great for fluff and immersion
The Detachments are made for the codex they are used for the rule the army rule is just that the codex army rule you cant be thinking its ok for Space Marines to swap between codexes and mix them up while not being fully ok whit Chaos to do the same
@ All subfactions being able to use any detachment is also what GW prouded themselves with on edition launch. Punishing people for doing it in Marines would be silly.
I think there's some evidence that it is intentional. There was a recent White Dwarf article with a dev interview about how detachments are made and they said something to the effect of "we want marines to experiment with various detachment playstyles regardless of their army paint scheme"
I think it was White Dwarf #506, the one with the 4 player 40k rules. They were analyzing ork detachments, but they mentioned wanting to incentivize marines to try many playstyles.
This is 100% intentional (and still won't make marines the winningest of factions.) The rule is very clearly and specifically worded. I know its in-vogue to make out like GW don't know what they are doing, but they knew what they were doing with this one.
Oh boy more loopholes… this is why I don’t miss playing tabletop 40k.
It’s not a loophole it’s a rule working as intended and nobody is seriously mad about it.
The divergent chapters should be there own codex not a supplement. Just put the generic space marine unit datasheets with the armys. That way they can point the units that do better with those chapters better.
#1 - either retract RG's power up, or increase his cost to reflect his interaction with OoM (and I'm saying this as a Smurf player)
#2 - restrict the OoM buff to armors using the formations "of the Codex", as in just the ones from Space Marines. It limits this type of abuse AND is fluff compliant, since the Codex Astartes is supposed to be a work of tactical and strategic genius. That makes it so divergents can choose to be their unique snowflake selves with the attendant enhancements OR toe the Codex line and get the OoM buff, not both.
These BOTH need done.
Blood angels player here, GW should buff our unique units and remove the option of using divergent detachments w/ Super Oath.
Also, bring back my librarian dread!
Wow a Desolation Squad out of left field, you don't really see those anymore. Why don't we see Devastation Squads though? Yeah they'd have the Castellan Launcher but you could take a couple Las Cannons with the Missile Launchers and an entire extra Scout Squad because they kinda over nerfed the Desolation Squads.
Even on indirect hitting on 4+, with Oath+ you’re getting 75% hits and with +1 to W, it’s just a ton of volume that wounds on 5’s worst case scenario! Usually if you pump that into even SME you’re on 2’s to W…tons of saves AP be damned. It’ll still hurt!
The biggest persistent issue it seems likely to be the dynamic between trying to sell models, trying to balance and rebalance gameplay constantly based on win rates, and trying to sell existing models.
Game design is difficult enough as it is.
I like this, it's perfect for OC chapters that don't want named characters
I wish we had chapter relics though
As someone who started playing in 3rd, when the usage of special characters was actively discouraged, either through making them not tournament legal, or by intentionally giving them overpriced and ineffective, but fluffy, rules… I really really really like seeing competitive armies that don’t have named canon characters again, and giving a good reason to make your own chapter, rather than just going with one of the pre-made chapters. HOWEVER, over the past two decades, GW has done a 180 on canon named characters/factions can “your dudes” and they will likely try to undo this. Ironically the focus on your own custom characters and the discouragement of named canon characters is one of the reasons I stuck with 40k and ignored Warmhordes when that got popular, and it makes me sad to see 40k doing the exact same thing that Warmhordes did to turn me off back then.
All they have to do is say you lose the bonus to OoM if you use any [divergent chapter] units or select any [divergent chapter] Supplement Detachments
Or whenever you select a [Divergent Chapter] Detachment, any units that only have the faction keyword of Adeptus Astartes & no other chapter keyword, will also gain the [Divergent Chapter] keyword.
Edit: wording
Me and a buddy played my World Eaters with Vessels of Wrath against his Black Templars (generic). Had he deployed a bit better it would’ve been closer, but Juggalord with VoW and 6 E8B is insane.
Great video! Yes I agree this loophole needs closed immediately. The intention behind this rule is being manipulated. It needs to only be playable by the codex chapters using only the codex detachments.
I could see it get errata'd out. More codex-compliant chapters could also probably use more characters (outside of proxying as UM), though - even if just to carve out a niche.
As a Dark Angels player, I don't care, our detachments aren't as good as gladius and our datasheets are great.
To me flavor wise it is a watered down way to make successor chapters but still i mean the reason before this data slate to play blood angels or space wolves and the like over chapters like ultra marines or salamanders was the "divergent" chapters special data slates
I think this shows a huge failing of 10th Ed. The space marine faction has kinda been broken since day 1 and there's not much that can be done you fix it without adding more detachments or adding subfactions back into the game
Can I ask where you got the brown Reiver image in the thumbnail? It looks awesome, and I'm hoping to do something similar for my guys. :D
Easy way to fix this would be to give the Divergent Detachments a rule that gives all Space Marines the keyword of the Detachments army.
I think it shouldn't be a thing. I think the way to fix it is to say that if you run a divergent chapter detachment OR if you run any divergent units, then you can't use it. It's probably a miss and I can't for the life of me believe that GW was sitting there going "yes, we should let Blood Angels get +1 to wound along with their shenanigans".
lol a + 1 to wound has done what 10 000 years couldn't, reminds me of all the space marines who painted red X's on their shoulder pad after the 3.5 chaos codex came out
Easy fix with a single errata. Just update the detachments to grant the chapter keyword to all units when you use it.
I am a little sad that I agree it should go away.
Ive been playing Unforgiven Task Force with it. And it's the only thing keeping me above water.
As a Space Wolf player. I still think these should be allowed.
Before the reccent buffs he core marine unit were already better than our own, and of all the marine detachments - we have the worst.
After the thundercav nerfs 6 months ago, we have essentially no reason to play Wolves when vanilla marines are so good. To stop us accessing the +1 to wound would feel like a big kick in the teeth
There’s nothing stopping codex compliant chapters from running the supplemental detachments. The argument was always “it’s not fair they can use generic detachments with their unique datasheets”.
But now they move the goal post and say the issue is they can use their detachments and get the the +1 to wound. Even though the salamander player can run champions of Russ as well. I see nothing wrong with this.
They clearly overlooked that and will act upon it soon.
Yeah, this is definitely not intended, Divergent chapters should need to actually use the core codex detachments if they want the boosted Oaths.
the problem is the way that chapters work are inconsistent, and GW is consistent in being inconsistent on it right now. the first index's had restrictions on divergent marine chapters units that where specifically written into the detachment, so initially legally you could have Templar librarians in Gladius, they fixed that and made the restrictions to the chapter itself. In the official app, you cant even select those new detachments without selecting your chapter to be Templars or Blood Angels. IMO its clearly unintentional, but they need to fix it if that's the case, you should select your chapter before selecting detachment, and the chapter select unlocks the detachments, and units.
I'm already playing suboptimal DA detachments because I like their units and flavor, I'm not going to give them up for +1 to wound on a target per round. But the fact all these cool rules and units are outshone by a +1 to wound is mad.
Some people in this thread are simultaneously claiming thst they do this "for the fluff because they want to represent their custom chapter" and that they cannot just play their divergent chapter as intended because then they would be at a disadvantage.
Just say that you are trying to minmax like everybody else, but you are too coward to admit it, so you need to hide behind "fluff".
Oh, yeah, you CERTAINLY need +1 to wound AND +2S to play your custom chapter based on BA. It has nothing to do with it being broken, you just want "the fluff".
"But i dont want to use any of the named characters or spwcial units because... Eh.. reasons, it is not like i could simply change the name of the character to make it a different person, as that would break the immersion".
So why dont you use codex detachments then, painting your minis in red, a d calling them wtf you want?
Well, because you want the +2S +1A from liberators.
Like, come on. You are just tricking yourself, the rest of us see past the BS easily.
I have my own order of Sisters. I just picked the rules that seemed the more appropiate and changed colour schemes, names, etc.
I don't need to trick anyone by saying that i truly really need BoF detschment but also the effect of the penitent host and the enhancements and strats of Hallowd Martyrs because it is really the only way to represent the order how i envision it (broken af, that is)
Banning this option is the same as forcing people to always play with special characters, and not deviate in the slightest from the Chapters that are already established with said characters (yes, there are people who paint - and play with - their marines with the colors of Successor Chapters, despite not having any type of advantage in doing so).
It was just a buff for Ultramarines. They needed an actual buff or rule to play the other core chapters. Not forced even harder to be Yellow, Red, White, etc. Ultramarines.
My best match ive ever had was relatively recent due to this change. I play Blood Angels and I've not had a single match since the change where I've taken BA specific units. Ive found terminators are stupidly overpowered with Oath in the Liberator Assault Group detachment. I had a 5 man plus a captain charge into a knight on near enough full wounds and take it out that turn with just 3 of the 5 terminators, and then the remaining 2 one punch a hellbrute that decided to heroically intervene. They then went on to basically solo the whole of enemy deployment winning the game entirely because of them. I've found my best games have made use of a repulsor executioner, a ballistus, a brutalis or two, a tech marine, and then bladeguard, junp pack assault marines, and terminators.
I'm pretty sure whoever wrote the rule wanted it to work like it is since you can only use unique units if your Army has that keyword. Why specifically go for the units if you don't want to open that back door?
The bigger question is if the writers snuck it by the editor or it was intended by GW at large.
I can see how it would affect others negatively, but as a Raptors enjoyer, i like running generic lists anyway. gaining access to more detachments is not only more fun for me but also on brand for the strategically open-minded "sensible marines".
I really understand the outrage as this really feels like it is meant for the non-divergent chapters and people are abusing keywords.
Overall being a non-divergent player feels bad. It feels like being a kid that can only play with the shared community bin toys while other kids get to enjoy their privately owned toys as well as the community ones. (Considering we are talking about toy soldiers here, that might actually be a bit more literal)
The overall problem with the situation seems to be the nerf-centric approach GW takes with balancing. If the divergent stuff is the most played, GW nerfs it. If the non-divergent stuff is the most played (even though it is played in divergent chapter lists), it gets nerfed and even the subfactions that never had the opportunity to have that good synergy get punished as well.
The solution would be to reverse the thinking, flip it on its head. Instead of GW nerfing everything that is good, they could instead buff the things that are bad. Of course, this would have to be done tactfully, otherwise we would run into another end-of-9ed scenario where everything was strong so nothing was, but that is another matter altogether.
I would say if you use any units or detachments that are not coded compliant, i.e. blood Angels, space wolves, black Templar, then you didn't get the buff, if you wanna play dark angels, but only use codex compliant units, then you can get the buff, for shooting yourself in the foot and not using your special units