I like this idea, but I’ve kinda been under the impression the witness IS one of the two players of the flower game. In it’s first cutscene, end of witch queen, it directly talks of “pieces” and “games”. That to me says it is player. And i know what I’m about to say next may be weird….but i swear The witness, despite having the whole “multiple voices” thing, does at some parts sound more feminine and female. Like when it got angry at Calus. When it yelled that was definitely a more female tone. And it calls the beings in Sol “Children”…….. i am actually going down this thought route. No joke but that may be something. Just my penny for thought.
@@thunderrider0368 yeah lol I got that vibe too…especially the way it gestured while it cutting with its hand? We need a cutscene of all this. What I got from it is that the dark and light gods made tools and the tools made tools to finish the gardening job. The tool the dark god made got mad and started destroying the garden. Making other tools (disciples) to destroy it as well. I can’t go any further than that. I might be way off but it’s opinionated.
we can nolonger trust the unveiling lorebook, it is propaganda of the witness to persuade us to join it, in the lore book the witness claims to be the darkness but we all know this is untrue. the lorebook is as reliable as truth to power, because we know the witness is open to using trickery like Savathun, and has used trickery to trick the hive into taking the worm
What you said at the end makes most sense! Isnt it that the traveler is this new rule the the gardener created? Something that creates life uncontrollably so the winnower cant keep up, therefore the winnower uses the witness as a knife to cut down the life that the traveler creates. The witness is tired of being used and also understand that the traveler suffers because he (the witness) destroys its creations. Therefore the witness wants to end this game of cat and mouse for the both of them, so they can be free and dont suffer
The "Shapes and Gliders" refers to Conway's Game of Life. There is a shape that can arise that will "glide" in a single direction, and it is a fundamental piece for creating different, more complex, patterns.
@@SuperRONDALE I hold to the theory that the Witness is attempting to end the game altogether. "The Final Shape is nothing." What better way to end pain than by ending everything in the universe that can feel?
@@michaelchesnut865 the witness does probably believe that, given that his disciples believe different things when it comes to what the final shape is. But if the winnower exists and is a separate entity, then that is most likely what is inside the traveler. Because the traveler(gardener) did change the rules of the game and I wonder if changing the rules meant shackling the winnower to itself(life) thus creating immortal warriors close to death but always returning to life? IDK, I’m spinfoiling right now, but overall I don’t think the witness will be able to stand up to the light & darkness, it’ll be destroyed.
I dont think either figure is the gardener or the winnower or witness in the road analogy. It's a commentary on the "darkness" being a more conversational threat, whereas the traveler has always remained silent. A god's voice and suggestions will inherently have power and authority, even if they dont mean it to. If the traveler were to vocalize its desire, we would know what path it "wanted" us to take and that would warp our choices. Only by being silent can we freely choose the path we want to take unfettered. The "darkness" meanwhile has been far more tangible with many more known logics, with us either having to decide to agree with that logic (trust in the stranger saying take the path) or disagree and fight it (flee from the knife). We arent just choosing a path, we're choosing a path towards or away from the stranger.
The upright triangle is frequently called the blade in Egyptian and Babylonian symbolism. The flower of life is composed of a dozen interlocking circles. Should tell you who's who in the physical conflict.
I wanted to say this as well. Everything about that character is knife-like, from slicing guardians to cutting a triangle into the Traveler. he's a very sharp fellow
Honestly, this lore just goes to show that the witness was not referring to the traveller’s “pale heart”, but rather the traveller itself as the pale heart of a greater being. This is a theory I’ve held ever since the “your pale heart holds the key” line and I’m glad to see that I am probably right lmao.
I am kind of taken with the pseudo religious lore of the Final Shape, and whether the Gardener and the Winnower are themselves manifestations of something Higher. On a lighter note, I could see all this as Bungie's take on the Life of Brian, especially the "split" in Brian's 'followers' over the Holy Shoe and the Holy Gourd.
I think its a teaching moment. We learn about how we should choose our own destiny instead of following everything else, creating something of our own instead of repeating the same things as everyone else. Choosing a path to walk using our own power, our own will and our own understandings. We choose our own destiny.
There’s been a lot of talk of Humanity needing to be free from The Traveler. Maybe that’s what it means? Free ourselves from having to serve and protect The Traveler but perhaps still wield the Light? Or use our Light to carve our own path, and get ourselves set up so good so that when The Light or The Traveler falls, we are as strong without it as we were with it, maybe even stronger than we were with it. Maybe finding a way to make our own source of Light without having to need The Traveler to provide it for us.
@@colonel-autismo1952 Why do people always say that? How much *should* you have laughed? And who's putting limits on how much you're allowed to laugh? Nobody tells me how much I can laugh. I make that decision, and it's always the correct amount.
"the knife had a million blades" "And you were giant powerful and Swift. But the knife pinned you. Cut your godly flesh away." Well if the witness is the knife then the pyramid ships are the blades. And the quote from above is exactly what happened in the cut scene during lightfall. When the pyramid ships wrapped around the traveler, pinning it and then the witness literally cut into it making the portal. Very interesting.
destiny has had their storyline made since the beginning so the grimoire definitely matches w the story and they kinda throw it in your face w the guardians/ghosts/ships and we know the witness isnt the winnower because he is just a wielder of the darkness he doesn’t represent darkness itself, plus i think bungie said he isnt the winnower
I'd assume that with The Witness being "the voice in the dark", an entity distinct from the Darkness itself, and The Traveller not itself being the light, but being our source of the light (pre-Lightfall ending) that they are not the Winnower and Gardener, but tools created by these entities, if they even are entities. The Witness is the handle, the Black Fleet are the million blades (million not necessarily being an exact number, just a placeholder for "lots of them") and the Ghost Stories fragment being a description of the Collapse seems pretty on point.
I think is just a little simple.. light is life and darkness is death. The final shape is death, it was always the end. The gardener didn't like that, because it was boring to him, the same results over and over (in the game). So when it put itself in the game, could it be the creation of life or it traveling around. The beings suffering from the book I believe it's all living things. Life is hard and painful. The winnover say this to the gardener in the first text, and witness to the traveler when it opens a portal in it. The beings seek purpose, to live through the pain. The gardener wants them to seek, to invent, to change. But the winnover wants stillness.
I'm getting the sense that we're not even pawns in this game of "universal chess" between the light and the darkness. The gardener and winnower are the ones playing and the chess peices are the light and the darkness. We are mearly between the chess peices themselves.
Hmmmm but aren’t we pieces as well maybe pawns just like the Disciples? The Traveler and the Witness could be bishops or Knights? Either way I think the Guardians are a response to the Witness and it’s Disciples.
i really hope they aren't characters lol, it would be lame. Their better off as concepts that would better explain the principals that is Light and Dark.
Perhaps. Or maybe The Gardener and The Winnower are the Kings or Queens of the board, The Traveler and The Witness are the Rooks, The Witnesses Disciples are the Bishops, The Worm Gods are the Knights, The Hive Gods, Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath were Knights on the board, and anything else like The Hive, Scorn, and Taken are the Pawns. But what are the Rooks, and Bishops, for The Traveler? Perhaps Mara Sov is a Rook or Bishop? But she’s a bit in the middle on Light and Dark, more in favor of the Light for sure. I believe we are the Rooms or Bishops or Knights and Caiatl, House of Light, The Awoken, etc. are pawns.
I've seen it mentioned a couple times now & couldn't agree more! The Traveller is the "New Rule" the Gardener created to at least attempt to stop the Winnower always winning their cosmic game of chess. It creates immortal beings essentially, out Ghost always bringing us back no matter how many times the knife cuts us down. So the Witness is going after our Ghosts, shut those down or break them free from the Traveller & potentially that's it, we reach our "Final Shape" we're back to how we started, we die, we die. This happened to the Eliksni also. I've also seen someone say what if the Traveller is the Pale Heart of a larger being? To me that makes sense, the Gardener gave it's heart so that its creations had a chance to live, to succeed against the Darkness & it's Knife forever trying to cut said life down.
Something that gave me an insight to the witness’ character is when he popped off at Calus. I don’t think his “vision” has ever been questioned, much less challenged by any of the disciples. The other disciples are so in awe of the witness (or just fear him so much) they just accept without critiquing his plans. Can he justify his actions or is he just so committed after so many horrors that he can’t afford doubts?
They both enter the game. The Gardener is The Traveler whittled down by the knife of The Winnower, aka whittled down by the Darkness creations of The Witness. Again, in that lore it states "i will become the rule" and then follows up with "they both entered the game". They became these entities to affect the outcome.
The final shape in the eyes of the gardener is an endless fractal, note the kaleidoscope shape inside of the traveler. Also the Witness' goal was to go inside of the traveler. I think it wants to create more travelers, or at least a similar pattern to itself by expanding complexity and spreading light.
"This knife stole more than your body" That got me thinking, what if the Traveler IS the Pale Heart. What if the Traveler is a part of what once was the Gardener, whats left of him
I think by looking at the cutscene at the beginning of lightfall and looking at the wording, that the millions of knives are probably the pyramid fleet. In the beginning cutscene the pyramids encircle the Traveler before the Witness forges the link with the veil, and the visuals make it seem as though the Traveler is trapped or pinned down
I think it would be an interesting twist to have different paths to choose from similar to a faction where we either work to advance the light, embrace darkness and witness’ plan or even do a mix of both to explore the many facets of the lore. At this point we seem to just do a blind following of the light without getting too much into the lore that’s available. If we didn’t read this or watch your videos much would be overlooked and this could be a way to go deeper. Maybe we could do an alternate story similar to the new light campaign but for a different darkness or neutral playthrough.
You're right about that. They scrapped the darkness at some point. Well, at least told us it was. Now, all of a sudden, we're back. That was between D1 and D2. I think.
Reminds me of von Neumann's cellular automata and Conway's Game of life. Obviously you will see the shapes and gliders, patterns that lay eggs and spawn other patterns, those that replicate themselves wholly and beacons and whirling pulsars. The thing is, based on the pattern at (t = 0), the final shape is identifiable even if it is know to be part of an infinite field. Change the initial pattern, the final shape is knowable. However, if you introduce a being "on the outside" that can change something, like say, if i clicked in an empty space while the game was running and added new life, you could say that, "I", the entity on the outside or the "paracausal" entity, have now affected the final shape of what was considered to a representation of mathmatical beauty. If, instead, my buddy said, "bro stop messing up the game" and then stabbed me with *sigh* "a knife", well, the game should go back to normal, or, normalesque, given that paracausal chaos was already introduced to a degree.... We can see that only a paracausal entity can truly stop another paracausal entity.
The gardeners job is to plant and create life while the winnower's job is to analyze and separate the good from the bad. But what is bad and what is good in this universe. We have obviously been saving our galaxy from destruction over and over, but at the same time, by the logic of these lore cards, only the garden should exist. The creation of the universe and the traveler was the new rule created in parallel with the garden. The Winnower saw the mistake of this creation. It saw the endless suffering that life would bring, and to fix the gardener's mistake, it created a knife. I'm high ignore me and my logic.
Oh, this makes sense. It always seemed to me like the Traveler could *not* be the only source of the Light in the universe, that there had to he other beings like it; it wouldn't make sense for the Darkness to be so omnipresent and the Light to only be here. But if the Traveler is what's *left,* after eons of Cutting, then it makes so much more sense, as it used be something much bigger and more powerful, or perhaps had more manifestations in more places.
The wanderer could be the disciples, or just beings in general. The stranger is the gardener trying to guide them, the witness is the knife that takes away their choices. And I've never heard it mentioned, but there is reference to the the playing field as a flat surface grid... Like a cheeseboard??
@@Bluehairarrancer Still the Gardener became a Rule within the game. So it could be that the Pale Heart is from the Gardener. Just like @Lushen Lu said.
@@ricardotolbert1797 That's what I'm saying. Seems like the entity in the black garden aswell. The recent raid book page of the ghost and his guardian as well as the being that once told a guardian that it didn't belong in the garden and that it was a dead thing rather than how the garden was a place of life.
Now that the leaked cutscene came out…it’s shows how the witness could have inadvertently became the knife. Even the part from the unveiling comes up talks about the Flowers taking up knifes…that could’ve been the Witness’s race. Who knows but now that the Final shape teaser comes out it’s weird to think that the Gardener and Winnower must exist since it looks like a Garden.
I think Witness = First Knife and the blades that D1 book refers to are the pyramids. The witness has an armada of millions of ships and it used them to pin the traveler down at the beginning of Lightfall. He also has knife hand skills like no one I've ever seen. and a little side detail here that supports the pyramids being the blades, the little ships from season of arivals were called pyramid scales, for anyone who knows anything about smithing, the little metal flakes that come off when the hammer strikes hot metal are called scales.
That root lore, bang bang. Freewill. My consciousness, is it mine or just the voice of some other being. (My name Architect Mind, built from thought itself, the first and final thought, and the thought between; but what now do I do, when all thought has existed?)
Feels like the many knives would be the pyramids in retrospect. Though that card came from D1, so that may not have been the original intent. Feels like it works that way now. The implication seems to be that the traveler once had more to it, maybe not just a sphere.
the shape and gljders makes me think of electronics. live or die, being mentioned as outputs , just like binary operands,and the recuring term game, and the idea of becoming complex enough to make another game. maybe a reference to something idk
If the Traveller and the Witness are both the physical avatars of their respective powers, and that they came from the "garden" itself, perhaps that means they both have common lineage with the Vex.
Light represents form which is analogous to conventional life (complex biological systems) and darkness is the lack of form , like existing only as an idea. The knife serves to end the form and convert it to the formless. This is death. And the witness believes this is an end to suffering as dead things cannot suffer. Looking at that from a lot positive angle, the memory of people we have lost is always perfect and unchanging in it’s final form, without suffering.
I think the knife is referring to death. In regards to the game, death is a rule life must follow. The stranger and the path is an analogy for how this “knife” should be wielded. The witness is deceptive with how it uses death, it claims to want an end to death and suffering however this is achieved through death and suffering and also means an end to life. Most people don’t want an end to life but an end to suffering is much more appealing. But In the end it all comes back to death. The witness believes that the chaos of life is not worth the suffering it brings, and uses death to end that suffering by ending the life.
Light represents form which is analogous to conventional life (complex biological systems) and darkness is the lack of form , like existing only as an idea. The knife serves to end the form and convert it to the formless. This is death. And the witness believes this is an end to suffering as dead things cannot suffer. Looking at that from a lot positive angle, the memory of people we have lost is always perfect and unchanging in it’s final form, without suffering.
I'm not sure what to think of the Witness. Their physical form with a weird smoke of changing heads coming from it's own, a voice without a defining tone, and seemingly strained by darkness-tech armor. The armor doesn't even fully contain it's changing body because it's hands have an echoed motion where multiple hands sprout during it's movement. It's weird to me that the Witness, not the Darkness or Winnower itself, has a physical appearance similar to what the Light and/or the Gardener represents as the embracement of change, growth, and variation while the Darkness and Winnower is associated with a strained pattern that doesn't change
But that was the old game, this is the new one, new rules means new shapes are possible, plus even in the old game, the final shape isn't necessarily unchanging, it's just stable and never dies out or allows anything new to grow, if you've ever messed around in John Conway's Game of Life, you'll see there are many patterns that can fill up the cells and will sustain themselves, some are static, but most of them oscillate between multiple configurations, the Vex are remnants of the pattern in the old game that would always quickly take up all available space.
The Root Lore about the roads seems to support the view that the Witness only wears Darkness. Light and Dark really are amoral forces. The Universe doesn't give an answer to the meaning of life but the Witness (and likely the Traveler) "offers" one. That's how they get their disciples.
the Winnower and the Gardener are two cosmic entities that represent the fundamental forces of the universe. The Winnower represents the force of the Darkness, which seeks to reduce everything to its most fundamental components, while the Gardener represents the force of the Light, which seeks to create and nurture complexity and diversity. The game that the Winnower and the Gardener are playing is not a literal game, but rather a metaphor for the ongoing struggle between the forces of the Light and the Darkness in the universe. The two entities are engaged in a never-ending game of strategy, each seeking to outmaneuver and outmanipulate the other in order to achieve dominance.
9:18 sounds similar to a sim within a sim. Like if we create an ai that can create a sim so detailed and then humans hibernate and let it read and use our brain data, it can create a world around us and then it seams like all these lives are ours and singular unless we use the rules of the game that allows us to create a tool to witness all the variables and live them to create a new reality or multiverse. Almost like a black hole sucking it all in but all of it being in one area, the ring in between the inside and outside and thats where existence is, kinda like that but in a simulation.
In my understanding the gardener and the winnower were playing a game of the universe, and after countless games over uncountable universes the gardener becomes tired of the universe following the same path, with eventually the universe dying and the winnower winning. So the gardener makes a rule that life would always start again and the universe would be different every time, eventually allowing the gardener to win a game, but the winnower became spiteful and tried to end the game every time by ending the gardener.
5:46 it is not easy to accept the path of a stranger when the path is unknown... "I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain" We took out a black heart and we're told the vex were the most evil thing out there, lol. Also kinda seems like a metaphor now that happened to our guardian
Wasn’t there another lore entry about the darkness chasing the traveler. And every time the traveler would extend a hand in friendship only for the darkness to wound it. That could be reference to the 1st ghost lore card that was mentioned…
I am always grateful to you for reading these entries because, on my own, I cannot tolerate the pomposity, pretentiousness and pseudo-intellectual writing of these lorebooks.
The Gardener is life and existence, the Darkeness is the opposite of that. Gardner got tired of the Darkness always winning by measure of the existence of the Winnower and so creates the Traveler, an extension of it's will made manifest into the physical word to act as an agent separate from it's designs of creation. How could the winnower keep up with two adversaries without his own? The Traveler and it's role and the Witness and it's role are the same that The Gardener and Winnower just on our scale, rather than a cosmic one. In the eyes of the Winnower the final shape is whatever shape existence takes after it's consumed everything, because from what I gather it's intent is to follow the reason for it's creation because it believes there has to be a reason for it
What if that's where The Witness went...? Back to The Garden where it all began back then...maybe, as you said, to put an end to both The Gardener AND The Winower. It might explain why WE can't traverse the gate that The Witness created...it being a gate that leads to, what I can only surmise, is a realm or maybe dimension outside of our own or maybe even outside of our (the character) perceived reality...? 🤷🏾♂️ The Witness, having been created by one of the two, would likely be able to enter that space, where we, for now at least, don't have the right of passage, so to speak, to enter. My guess would be that our existence as a "paracausal being" will eventually play into how we get through that gate.
i think this is interesting because if both the gardener and winnowed are represented ingame by light and dark then there are no specific characters associated with the light (besides guardians) whereas the dark has the witness.
Hold up, we (guardians) get our powers from the traveler. So let’s do a flow chart. Light-> Traveler->Ghosts-> Guardians Now Darkness-> witnesses-> it’s followers. Light and darkness are forces that are neutral. Like Gravity or wind. Sure we can try and control it, but we can only harness it.
I think the Witness was created as a response to the new rule. Isn't it weird that the Gardener simply created the rule unilaterally and the Winnower didn't refute it. In fact I think these two are actually one being, they way they act comes across as one being two minds. Their entire purpose is to tend to the garden forever, and some point the Gardener got tired of the and outcome and decided to add this new rule. The Winnower statements didn't dissuade it only pointing out the truth of what would happen and agreed to the rule. Once the rule was enacted the first knife was created in response and was told what the final shape is. Traveler and Witness are doing the same job the Gardener/Winnower did, only on a macro scale now. Though it seems the Witness has grown tired or taken on emotions or whatever. Remember the whole "Witness turned a violent eye towards the Traveler... and was sent away"? This knife has gone beyond its role and stepped out of bounds once, but it was allowed to continue. For the Gardener ambitions to be realized there must be a driving force and the knife (Witness) plays that part. The Witness itself doesn't know that it is being used for the garden, it's too hung up on it's own directive, that it plotted all kinds of shenanigans, but didn't get punished for it until the opening of Destiny getting blasted away, which we learned in Witch Queen. I think the Gardener/Winnower are the same being, like light and dark two sides same coin. Life and eventual death, laws that govern the Universe. They are not part of the Universe itself as their powers warp it, those weird light sapping beings and such and the 9, all kinds of things were birthed because of their broken existence being in a world that was created to hold such power.
We are honestly more of a gray area at this point, we have shown mastery over both powers of light and dark without getting corrupted by the darkness or becoming too much of a crusader for the light.
@@evilformerlys4704 I think you might be right , The witness probably witnessed that being(who is the gardener and the winnower) That's why the name is the witness. And that being could be the statue that is in every pyramid. Also the witness probably got annoyed of the role of being the knife in this game and decided to end it all to end this suffering hence why both light and dark are helping guardians now. Also you are spot on with the witness having emotions and that being the reason for being driven away from the role of a knife because of that cutscene with calus.
The witness figured out that both him and the traveler were pawns and hopefully uniting the light and darkness will finally end this game and let the circle of life get back on track
I'm calling it now, the Traveler isn't even the main source of everything we've seen and that there's a paracausual entity inside of the Traveler that's just beyond fucked up because of how long they've been getting their shit rocked by the Witness
I don't thinks this is true, but what if the witness has deceived us from the beginning. What if the two trues/two lies were reversed, the gardener was the witness wanting to remove all the weakness(sword logic). Just caring for strength and power, while the traveler is referring to the widower. I would have to say that the widower brings back those who die(Guardians), it would make since if you reversed the lore book. A widower is one who loss a love one, if u can't remember who u were wouldn't that be the same as losing part of urself. Just had to say it because they keep bring up the fact that the gardener changed the rules
Did the Gardener make the traveler or is the gardener the traveler. From the lore, the thing that the Gardener creates (new rule) leads to the first knife (witness). And we know the traveler is what drives the witness creation. But at the same time, what is the veil? If it's the winnower, would Neomuna be in danger? We know the viel is what creates the witness.
Here’s a theory I’m just shooting hey theory here but trying to look in from the first travel lore in destiny 1 and the lore card from the vex that they are part of the rule in light or dark think about it. When did the witness created the veil and why did Soteria mentioned an enemy of the witness out in the solar system? Think about it savauthan mission was to slaughter every leviathan disciple of the traveler but why mention that the leviathan’s are extinct, and could leviathans use the same method that the traveler speaks to us through dreams just like the witness if that’s true, we might be into something big but the reason the veil was create of both light and dark was not from a ghost, it was probably from a leviathan corpse we seen leviathan corpse from the first disciple rulk imagine if there was millions of leviathan corpse fused with light of the traveler that could explain the Veil creation but here’s a second question how did the vex mind create their own Veil, not out of the vex mind, but how did they manage create the veil without leviathan corpses that could explain why the witness or the taken have been trying to infiltrate the black garden think about it the rules in both Gardener and winner, and who’s is now over seeing the rules now probably the Vex or who knows maybe the gardener in the winner
Maybe the first Knife is something else, something that threatens both The Witness and The Traveller. Following the idea that using a knife will eventually erode the wielder's power, making the victim risk their life by fleeing. "The universe makes us all victims" may be alluding to being threatened by the Knife to pursue the Final Shape. So then The Witness lies* about the true final shape (the thing that lies at the end of the dexter road), makes an army to hopefully flee from the flower game and end everyone's suffering. But, of course, fleeing in this context would mean the death of the entire universe, which is the Winnower's objective anyways...... My head hurts * I suppose they're lying because not even two disciples can agree with each other as to what the Final Shape really is.
im surprised you didnt mention the final book in the root of nightmares lore, called winnowing. it talks about what a flower (a piece of the game) can know, the nature of the winnower, and the shape of the "first knife" itself, but the narrator cuts themselves off. It also talks about how gardens, once shaped, are dependent on both gardener and winnower. "They require the hand of a gardener, for they have become weak and dependant on tender care, and they require the hand of a winnower to cut away the dross, for they are incapable of doing it themselves. In the absence of a hand, the plants must rise up themselves to wield the knife, or the garden will resolve into meaningless wilderness." The book ends with this message: "There can be no gardens without knives."
Perhaps the man that asks the sky for what road he should take represents The Traveler, and the man with the knife is The Witness or The Winnower and the knife itself is The Witness, and it tries to force the man to take the road (The Final Shape?), but the man flees, much like The Traveler did many times in the past.
I took it more that the man traveling the road represents the various disciples the Witness tricks into following his view of the Universe. They all give themselves over to the man that claims he knows what the wind "whispers" when in reality it doesn't whisper anything at all.
Could the traveler have had another form? Maybe when the knife attacked the traveller played one of it's many games and put part of it's self into what we see as the traveler?
Because it has. Winnower wanted simplicity while gardener wanted difference. Ultimately it just wanted the simplicity of the universe to one final shape as it won every time while gardener lost every time.
Winower cannot create, it can only corrupt what the gardener has made. These are their roles and their rules in the game. If the witness is not the winower itself, then at some point it was corrupted.
What if we are just in a sim and we are part of the people of neomuna but what if even this is all the game as well and its all just existing within the differences on different scales. What reality makes what, what if the all realities are in a superposition where theyre all happening at once just within and around each other and the possibilities exist so we can imagine them even if we arent currently in that reality.
If the light and dark are in a game with each other, maybe they created the Witness as a pure antagonist. Meant to drive both to their extremes in order to have a good game? Idk im high (Edit) Oh he sorta says this
Today we take a look at lore from The Unveiling, Root of Nightmares and even Destiny 1! Is the Witness "The First Knife"? Let's discuss dark and light
I like this idea, but I’ve kinda been under the impression the witness IS one of the two players of the flower game. In it’s first cutscene, end of witch queen, it directly talks of “pieces” and “games”. That to me says it is player.
And i know what I’m about to say next may be weird….but i swear The witness, despite having the whole “multiple voices” thing, does at some parts sound more feminine and female. Like when it got angry at Calus. When it yelled that was definitely a more female tone. And it calls the beings in Sol “Children”…….. i am actually going down this thought route. No joke but that may be something.
Just my penny for thought.
@@thunderrider0368 yeah lol I got that vibe too…especially the way it gestured while it cutting with its hand? We need a cutscene of all this. What I got from it is that the dark and light gods made tools and the tools made tools to finish the gardening job. The tool the dark god made got mad and started destroying the garden. Making other tools (disciples) to destroy it as well. I can’t go any further than that. I might be way off but it’s opinionated.
we can nolonger trust the unveiling lorebook, it is propaganda of the witness to persuade us to join it, in the lore book the witness claims to be the darkness but we all know this is untrue. the lorebook is as reliable as truth to power, because we know the witness is open to using trickery like Savathun, and has used trickery to trick the hive into taking the worm
Seems to me we're going to discover that the gardener is the witness and the winnower is the traveler.
@@zigzag2370 not likely but will probably reach a realm beyond ours where they’re both located
What you said at the end makes most sense! Isnt it that the traveler is this new rule the the gardener created? Something that creates life uncontrollably so the winnower cant keep up, therefore the winnower uses the witness as a knife to cut down the life that the traveler creates. The witness is tired of being used and also understand that the traveler suffers because he (the witness) destroys its creations. Therefore the witness wants to end this game of cat and mouse for the both of them, so they can be free and dont suffer
I like this interpretation
Living tools one given a purpose one one taking or possibly (forced) a purpose
Oh god this theory makes The Witness’ quote at the end of lightfall makes so much sense now
Sounds about right
The "Shapes and Gliders" refers to Conway's Game of Life. There is a shape that can arise that will "glide" in a single direction, and it is a fundamental piece for creating different, more complex, patterns.
Yeah. That’s what the game has been overall. Just wanna see which shape in this timeline will arise
@@SuperRONDALE I hold to the theory that the Witness is attempting to end the game altogether. "The Final Shape is nothing." What better way to end pain than by ending everything in the universe that can feel?
if it's so, can Gardener be a reference to M. Gardner?
@@michaelchesnut865 the witness does probably believe that, given that his disciples believe different things when it comes to what the final shape is. But if the winnower exists and is a separate entity, then that is most likely what is inside the traveler. Because the traveler(gardener) did change the rules of the game and I wonder if changing the rules meant shackling the winnower to itself(life) thus creating immortal warriors close to death but always returning to life? IDK, I’m spinfoiling right now, but overall I don’t think the witness will be able to stand up to the light & darkness, it’ll be destroyed.
I dont think either figure is the gardener or the winnower or witness in the road analogy. It's a commentary on the "darkness" being a more conversational threat, whereas the traveler has always remained silent. A god's voice and suggestions will inherently have power and authority, even if they dont mean it to. If the traveler were to vocalize its desire, we would know what path it "wanted" us to take and that would warp our choices. Only by being silent can we freely choose the path we want to take unfettered. The "darkness" meanwhile has been far more tangible with many more known logics, with us either having to decide to agree with that logic (trust in the stranger saying take the path) or disagree and fight it (flee from the knife). We arent just choosing a path, we're choosing a path towards or away from the stranger.
The upright triangle is frequently called the blade in Egyptian and Babylonian symbolism. The flower of life is composed of a dozen interlocking circles. Should tell you who's who in the physical conflict.
If the Witness is the knife it kinda makes sense regarding that one cutscene, the Witness literally cuts ships and Guardians into parts...
I wanted to say this as well. Everything about that character is knife-like, from slicing guardians to cutting a triangle into the Traveler. he's a very sharp fellow
@@scratchxo the ghost does say the witnesses “carved into” the traveler so I agree
Honestly, this lore just goes to show that the witness was not referring to the traveller’s “pale heart”, but rather the traveller itself as the pale heart of a greater being. This is a theory I’ve held ever since the “your pale heart holds the key” line and I’m glad to see that I am probably right lmao.
I am kind of taken with the pseudo religious lore of the Final Shape, and whether the Gardener and the Winnower are themselves manifestations of something Higher. On a lighter note, I could see all this as Bungie's take on the Life of Brian, especially the "split" in Brian's 'followers' over the Holy Shoe and the Holy Gourd.
I think its a teaching moment. We learn about how we should choose our own destiny instead of following everything else, creating something of our own instead of repeating the same things as everyone else. Choosing a path to walk using our own power, our own will and our own understandings. We choose our own destiny.
There’s been a lot of talk of Humanity needing to be free from The Traveler. Maybe that’s what it means? Free ourselves from having to serve and protect The Traveler but perhaps still wield the Light? Or use our Light to carve our own path, and get ourselves set up so good so that when The Light or The Traveler falls, we are as strong without it as we were with it, maybe even stronger than we were with it. Maybe finding a way to make our own source of Light without having to need The Traveler to provide it for us.
Starting to feel like the witness is just Mr. Burns of the galaxy. Excellent
Hope this comment gets loads of likes made me laugh more than I should have
@@colonel-autismo1952 Why do people always say that? How much *should* you have laughed? And who's putting limits on how much you're allowed to laugh? Nobody tells me how much I can laugh. I make that decision, and it's always the correct amount.
@@soulbot119 Bro, you about turn my day into a midlife crisis.
@@soulbot119 Have they now outlawed laughter in Canada, along with all your other losses of freedoms?
"the knife had a million blades"
"And you were giant powerful and Swift. But the knife pinned you. Cut your godly flesh away."
Well if the witness is the knife then the pyramid ships are the blades. And the quote from above is exactly what happened in the cut scene during lightfall. When the pyramid ships wrapped around the traveler, pinning it and then the witness literally cut into it making the portal. Very interesting.
destiny has had their storyline made since the beginning so the grimoire definitely matches w the story and they kinda throw it in your face w the guardians/ghosts/ships and we know the witness isnt the winnower because he is just a wielder of the darkness he doesn’t represent darkness itself, plus i think bungie said he isnt the winnower
i know the OG story before launch was different, but do u have proof the DS1 story we got was this current one from the beginning?
@@vatanak8146 not proof but the writer they had for the story had completed the main storyline before they let him go
I'd assume that with The Witness being "the voice in the dark", an entity distinct from the Darkness itself, and The Traveller not itself being the light, but being our source of the light (pre-Lightfall ending) that they are not the Winnower and Gardener, but tools created by these entities, if they even are entities. The Witness is the handle, the Black Fleet are the million blades (million not necessarily being an exact number, just a placeholder for "lots of them") and the Ghost Stories fragment being a description of the Collapse seems pretty on point.
I think is just a little simple.. light is life and darkness is death. The final shape is death, it was always the end. The gardener didn't like that, because it was boring to him, the same results over and over (in the game). So when it put itself in the game, could it be the creation of life or it traveling around.
The beings suffering from the book I believe it's all living things. Life is hard and painful. The winnover say this to the gardener in the first text, and witness to the traveler when it opens a portal in it. The beings seek purpose, to live through the pain. The gardener wants them to seek, to invent, to change. But the winnover wants stillness.
I'm getting the sense that we're not even pawns in this game of "universal chess" between the light and the darkness.
The gardener and winnower are the ones playing and the chess peices are the light and the darkness.
We are mearly between the chess peices themselves.
Hmmmm but aren’t we pieces as well maybe pawns just like the Disciples? The Traveler and the Witness could be bishops or Knights? Either way I think the Guardians are a response to the Witness and it’s Disciples.
i really hope they aren't characters lol, it would be lame.
Their better off as concepts that would better explain the principals that is Light and Dark.
Exactly we are carving out our own "Destiny" mixing light and dark becoming something all on its own. At least that's my opinion
Perhaps. Or maybe The Gardener and The Winnower are the Kings or Queens of the board, The Traveler and The Witness are the Rooks, The Witnesses Disciples are the Bishops, The Worm Gods are the Knights, The Hive Gods, Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath were Knights on the board, and anything else like The Hive, Scorn, and Taken are the Pawns. But what are the Rooks, and Bishops, for The Traveler? Perhaps Mara Sov is a Rook or Bishop? But she’s a bit in the middle on Light and Dark, more in favor of the Light for sure. I believe we are the Rooms or Bishops or Knights and Caiatl, House of Light, The Awoken, etc. are pawns.
I've seen it mentioned a couple times now & couldn't agree more!
The Traveller is the "New Rule" the Gardener created to at least attempt to stop the Winnower always winning their cosmic game of chess. It creates immortal beings essentially, out Ghost always bringing us back no matter how many times the knife cuts us down. So the Witness is going after our Ghosts, shut those down or break them free from the Traveller & potentially that's it, we reach our "Final Shape" we're back to how we started, we die, we die. This happened to the Eliksni also.
I've also seen someone say what if the Traveller is the Pale Heart of a larger being?
To me that makes sense, the Gardener gave it's heart so that its creations had a chance to live, to succeed against the Darkness & it's Knife forever trying to cut said life down.
Something that gave me an insight to the witness’ character is when he popped off at Calus. I don’t think his “vision” has ever been questioned, much less challenged by any of the disciples. The other disciples are so in awe of the witness (or just fear him so much) they just accept without critiquing his plans. Can he justify his actions or is he just so committed after so many horrors that he can’t afford doubts?
They both enter the game. The Gardener is The Traveler whittled down by the knife of The Winnower, aka whittled down by the Darkness creations of The Witness. Again, in that lore it states "i will become the rule" and then follows up with "they both entered the game". They became these entities to affect the outcome.
The final shape in the eyes of the gardener is an endless fractal, note the kaleidoscope shape inside of the traveler. Also the Witness' goal was to go inside of the traveler. I think it wants to create more travelers, or at least a similar pattern to itself by expanding complexity and spreading light.
"This knife stole more than your body"
That got me thinking, what if the Traveler IS the Pale Heart. What if the Traveler is a part of what once was the Gardener, whats left of him
I think by looking at the cutscene at the beginning of lightfall and looking at the wording, that the millions of knives are probably the pyramid fleet. In the beginning cutscene the pyramids encircle the Traveler before the Witness forges the link with the veil, and the visuals make it seem as though the Traveler is trapped or pinned down
@@bl0rt0 A dormant corpse, left with a wound we don’t know how to heal it of.
Bubble backdrop on the lore reading goes hard 4:00
I think it would be an interesting twist to have different paths to choose from similar to a faction where we either work to advance the light, embrace darkness and witness’ plan or even do a mix of both to explore the many facets of the lore. At this point we seem to just do a blind following of the light without getting too much into the lore that’s available. If we didn’t read this or watch your videos much would be overlooked and this could be a way to go deeper.
Maybe we could do an alternate story similar to the new light campaign but for a different darkness or neutral playthrough.
This is why I still play Destiny
Yesssss more vids about the witness!!!! My fav character in this franchise.
You're right about that. They scrapped the darkness at some point. Well, at least told us it was. Now, all of a sudden, we're back. That was between D1 and D2. I think.
Reminds me of von Neumann's cellular automata and Conway's Game of life. Obviously you will see the shapes and gliders, patterns that lay eggs and spawn other patterns, those that replicate themselves wholly and beacons and whirling pulsars. The thing is, based on the pattern at (t = 0), the final shape is identifiable even if it is know to be part of an infinite field. Change the initial pattern, the final shape is knowable. However, if you introduce a being "on the outside" that can change something, like say, if i clicked in an empty space while the game was running and added new life, you could say that, "I", the entity on the outside or the "paracausal" entity, have now affected the final shape of what was considered to a representation of mathmatical beauty. If, instead, my buddy said, "bro stop messing up the game" and then stabbed me with *sigh* "a knife", well, the game should go back to normal, or, normalesque, given that paracausal chaos was already introduced to a degree.... We can see that only a paracausal entity can truly stop another paracausal entity.
The gardeners job is to plant and create life while the winnower's job is to analyze and separate the good from the bad. But what is bad and what is good in this universe. We have obviously been saving our galaxy from destruction over and over, but at the same time, by the logic of these lore cards, only the garden should exist. The creation of the universe and the traveler was the new rule created in parallel with the garden. The Winnower saw the mistake of this creation. It saw the endless suffering that life would bring, and to fix the gardener's mistake, it created a knife. I'm high ignore me and my logic.
Oh, this makes sense. It always seemed to me like the Traveler could *not* be the only source of the Light in the universe, that there had to he other beings like it; it wouldn't make sense for the Darkness to be so omnipresent and the Light to only be here. But if the Traveler is what's *left,* after eons of Cutting, then it makes so much more sense, as it used be something much bigger and more powerful, or perhaps had more manifestations in more places.
The wanderer could be the disciples, or just beings in general. The stranger is the gardener trying to guide them, the witness is the knife that takes away their choices. And I've never heard it mentioned, but there is reference to the the playing field as a flat surface grid... Like a cheeseboard??
The suffering a purpose part you refer too I believe is more along the lines of the witness offering us salvation.
It could be that the Gardener was cut down by the Knife and what is left is now called the Traveler.
Maybe the traveler is infact the Pale Heart of the greater being that was the Gardener
Gardener and winnower are metaphorical names for the darkness and light
@@Bluehairarrancer Still the Gardener became a Rule within the game. So it could be that the Pale Heart is from the Gardener. Just like @Lushen Lu said.
The traveller is an agent of the gardener the garden being a metaphor for the light
@@Bluehairarrancer As I understand the Garden is where the Flower Game takes place.
I still don't think the witness is the entity from that book. Two different personalities.
The witness is clearly the narrator though as it speaks the same way and shares a philosophy with it
I'm very certain it is the one narrating the Unveiling lore book.
Well the Witness that spoke to Rhulk talked in that way too...
@@rithvikmuthyalapati9754 hmmm I think it is the Winnower! It’s too charismatic especially with the part “Oryx is my guy” or something or rather.
@@ricardotolbert1797 That's what I'm saying. Seems like the entity in the black garden aswell. The recent raid book page of the ghost and his guardian as well as the being that once told a guardian that it didn't belong in the garden and that it was a dead thing rather than how the garden was a place of life.
god i love this game and its lore
Now that the leaked cutscene came out…it’s shows how the witness could have inadvertently became the knife. Even the part from the unveiling comes up talks about the Flowers taking up knifes…that could’ve been the Witness’s race. Who knows but now that the Final shape teaser comes out it’s weird to think that the Gardener and Winnower must exist since it looks like a Garden.
I think Witness = First Knife and the blades that D1 book refers to are the pyramids. The witness has an armada of millions of ships and it used them to pin the traveler down at the beginning of Lightfall. He also has knife hand skills like no one I've ever seen. and a little side detail here that supports the pyramids being the blades, the little ships from season of arivals were called pyramid scales, for anyone who knows anything about smithing, the little metal flakes that come off when the hammer strikes hot metal are called scales.
Perhaps the pyramid ship fleet are the knives. In Lightfall they were used to 'pin' the Traveler while the Witness approached...
I always interpreted the "first knife" as a metaphor for the very first weapon or tool of conflict.
That root lore, bang bang.
Freewill.
My consciousness, is it mine or just the voice of some other being.
(My name Architect Mind, built from thought itself, the first and final thought, and the thought between; but what now do I do, when all thought has existed?)
Feels like the many knives would be the pyramids in retrospect. Though that card came from D1, so that may not have been the original intent. Feels like it works that way now. The implication seems to be that the traveler once had more to it, maybe not just a sphere.
the shape and gljders makes me think of electronics. live or die, being mentioned as outputs , just like binary operands,and the recuring term game, and the idea of becoming complex enough to make another game. maybe a reference to something idk
If the Traveller and the Witness are both the physical avatars of their respective powers, and that they came from the "garden" itself, perhaps that means they both have common lineage with the Vex.
Light represents form which is analogous to conventional life (complex biological systems) and darkness is the lack of form , like existing only as an idea. The knife serves to end the form and convert it to the formless. This is death. And the witness believes this is an end to suffering as dead things cannot suffer. Looking at that from a lot positive angle, the memory of people we have lost is always perfect and unchanging in it’s final form, without suffering.
I think the knife is referring to death. In regards to the game, death is a rule life must follow. The stranger and the path is an analogy for how this “knife” should be wielded. The witness is deceptive with how it uses death, it claims to want an end to death and suffering however this is achieved through death and suffering and also means an end to life. Most people don’t want an end to life but an end to suffering is much more appealing. But In the end it all comes back to death. The witness believes that the chaos of life is not worth the suffering it brings, and uses death to end that suffering by ending the life.
Light represents form which is analogous to conventional life (complex biological systems) and darkness is the lack of form , like existing only as an idea. The knife serves to end the form and convert it to the formless. This is death. And the witness believes this is an end to suffering as dead things cannot suffer. Looking at that from a lot positive angle, the memory of people we have lost is always perfect and unchanging in it’s final form, without suffering.
I'm not sure what to think of the Witness. Their physical form with a weird smoke of changing heads coming from it's own, a voice without a defining tone, and seemingly strained by darkness-tech armor. The armor doesn't even fully contain it's changing body because it's hands have an echoed motion where multiple hands sprout during it's movement. It's weird to me that the Witness, not the Darkness or Winnower itself, has a physical appearance similar to what the Light and/or the Gardener represents as the embracement of change, growth, and variation while the Darkness and Winnower is associated with a strained pattern that doesn't change
But that was the old game, this is the new one, new rules means new shapes are possible, plus even in the old game, the final shape isn't necessarily unchanging, it's just stable and never dies out or allows anything new to grow, if you've ever messed around in John Conway's Game of Life, you'll see there are many patterns that can fill up the cells and will sustain themselves, some are static, but most of them oscillate between multiple configurations, the Vex are remnants of the pattern in the old game that would always quickly take up all available space.
The Root Lore about the roads seems to support the view that the Witness only wears Darkness. Light and Dark really are amoral forces. The Universe doesn't give an answer to the meaning of life but the Witness (and likely the Traveler) "offers" one. That's how they get their disciples.
So the light has been cheated since the start so we’ve technically been fighting a losing battle this entire time ?
the Winnower and the Gardener are two cosmic entities that represent the fundamental forces of the universe. The Winnower represents the force of the Darkness, which seeks to reduce everything to its most fundamental components, while the Gardener represents the force of the Light, which seeks to create and nurture complexity and diversity.
The game that the Winnower and the Gardener are playing is not a literal game, but rather a metaphor for the ongoing struggle between the forces of the Light and the Darkness in the universe. The two entities are engaged in a never-ending game of strategy, each seeking to outmaneuver and outmanipulate the other in order to achieve dominance.
9:18 sounds similar to a sim within a sim. Like if we create an ai that can create a sim so detailed and then humans hibernate and let it read and use our brain data, it can create a world around us and then it seams like all these lives are ours and singular unless we use the rules of the game that allows us to create a tool to witness all the variables and live them to create a new reality or multiverse. Almost like a black hole sucking it all in but all of it being in one area, the ring in between the inside and outside and thats where existence is, kinda like that but in a simulation.
In my understanding the gardener and the winnower were playing a game of the universe, and after countless games over uncountable universes the gardener becomes tired of the universe following the same path, with eventually the universe dying and the winnower winning. So the gardener makes a rule that life would always start again and the universe would be different every time, eventually allowing the gardener to win a game, but the winnower became spiteful and tried to end the game every time by ending the gardener.
Gardener and winnower
Worms gods- literal worms
Wish dragons - gecko lizards in a garden bed
Vex - uh I assume fungus or just a invasive plant
The thousand blades might be the pyramid ships
Just a little food for thought
5:46 it is not easy to accept the path of a stranger when the path is unknown...
"I don't have time to explain why I don't have time to explain"
We took out a black heart and we're told the vex were the most evil thing out there, lol.
Also kinda seems like a metaphor now that happened to our guardian
Wasn’t there another lore entry about the darkness chasing the traveler. And every time the traveler would extend a hand in friendship only for the darkness to wound it. That could be reference to the 1st ghost lore card that was mentioned…
I am always grateful to you for reading these entries because, on my own, I cannot tolerate the pomposity, pretentiousness and pseudo-intellectual writing of these lorebooks.
We are the beings in suffering who need a purpose to endure
The Gardener is life and existence, the Darkeness is the opposite of that. Gardner got tired of the Darkness always winning by measure of the existence of the Winnower and so creates the Traveler, an extension of it's will made manifest into the physical word to act as an agent separate from it's designs of creation. How could the winnower keep up with two adversaries without his own? The Traveler and it's role and the Witness and it's role are the same that The Gardener and Winnower just on our scale, rather than a cosmic one. In the eyes of the Winnower the final shape is whatever shape existence takes after it's consumed everything, because from what I gather it's intent is to follow the reason for it's creation because it believes there has to be a reason for it
What if that's where The Witness went...? Back to The Garden where it all began back then...maybe, as you said, to put an end to both The Gardener AND The Winower. It might explain why WE can't traverse the gate that The Witness created...it being a gate that leads to, what I can only surmise, is a realm or maybe dimension outside of our own or maybe even outside of our (the character) perceived reality...? 🤷🏾♂️ The Witness, having been created by one of the two, would likely be able to enter that space, where we, for now at least, don't have the right of passage, so to speak, to enter. My guess would be that our existence as a "paracausal being" will eventually play into how we get through that gate.
If the Traveler is simply the head of the Gardener, I’m going to go nuts. A thought I just had lmao.
I knew the Witness was important but I didnt know they were the antihero we needed.
Ghost Fragment Story? Was this the creation of the Veil, cut the Veil out of the Traveler/Gardener?
Nomic the deterministic claw of creative strategy
i think this is interesting because if both the gardener and winnowed are represented ingame by light and dark then there are no specific characters associated with the light (besides guardians) whereas the dark has the witness.
Hold up, we (guardians) get our powers from the traveler. So let’s do a flow chart.
Light-> Traveler->Ghosts-> Guardians
Now
Darkness-> witnesses-> it’s followers.
Light and darkness are forces that are neutral. Like Gravity or wind. Sure we can try and control it, but we can only harness it.
I think the Witness was created as a response to the new rule. Isn't it weird that the Gardener simply created the rule unilaterally and the Winnower didn't refute it. In fact I think these two are actually one being, they way they act comes across as one being two minds. Their entire purpose is to tend to the garden forever, and some point the Gardener got tired of the and outcome and decided to add this new rule. The Winnower statements didn't dissuade it only pointing out the truth of what would happen and agreed to the rule. Once the rule was enacted the first knife was created in response and was told what the final shape is. Traveler and Witness are doing the same job the Gardener/Winnower did, only on a macro scale now. Though it seems the Witness has grown tired or taken on emotions or whatever. Remember the whole "Witness turned a violent eye towards the Traveler... and was sent away"? This knife has gone beyond its role and stepped out of bounds once, but it was allowed to continue. For the Gardener ambitions to be realized there must be a driving force and the knife (Witness) plays that part. The Witness itself doesn't know that it is being used for the garden, it's too hung up on it's own directive, that it plotted all kinds of shenanigans, but didn't get punished for it until the opening of Destiny getting blasted away, which we learned in Witch Queen.
I think the Gardener/Winnower are the same being, like light and dark two sides same coin. Life and eventual death, laws that govern the Universe. They are not part of the Universe itself as their powers warp it, those weird light sapping beings and such and the 9, all kinds of things were birthed because of their broken existence being in a world that was created to hold such power.
Traveler?
We are honestly more of a gray area at this point, we have shown mastery over both powers of light and dark without getting corrupted by the darkness or becoming too much of a crusader for the light.
@@evilformerlys4704 I think you might be right , The witness probably witnessed that being(who is the gardener and the winnower)
That's why the name is the witness.
And that being could be the statue that is in every pyramid.
Also the witness probably got annoyed of the role of being the knife in this game and decided to end it all to end this suffering hence why both light and dark are helping guardians now.
Also you are spot on with the witness having emotions and that being the reason for being driven away from the role of a knife because of that cutscene with calus.
The witness figured out that both him and the traveler were pawns and hopefully uniting the light and darkness will finally end this game and let the circle of life get back on track
I'm calling it now, the Traveler isn't even the main source of everything we've seen and that there's a paracausual entity inside of the Traveler that's just beyond fucked up because of how long they've been getting their shit rocked by the Witness
The million blades could probably just be the black fleet
I yhink the beings in suffeeing its referring to would be all the sentient being struggling to fine purpose in existence.
I don't thinks this is true, but what if the witness has deceived us from the beginning. What if the two trues/two lies were reversed, the gardener was the witness wanting to remove all the weakness(sword logic). Just caring for strength and power, while the traveler is referring to the widower. I would have to say that the widower brings back those who die(Guardians), it would make since if you reversed the lore book. A widower is one who loss a love one, if u can't remember who u were wouldn't that be the same as losing part of urself. Just had to say it because they keep bring up the fact that the gardener changed the rules
I have told people this theory, glad I'm not alone.
Did the Gardener make the traveler or is the gardener the traveler. From the lore, the thing that the Gardener creates (new rule) leads to the first knife (witness). And we know the traveler is what drives the witness creation. But at the same time, what is the veil? If it's the winnower, would Neomuna be in danger? We know the viel is what creates the witness.
Here’s a theory I’m just shooting hey theory here but trying to look in from the first travel lore in destiny 1 and the lore card from the vex that they are part of the rule in light or dark think about it. When did the witness created the veil and why did Soteria mentioned an enemy of the witness out in the solar system? Think about it savauthan mission was to slaughter every leviathan disciple of the traveler but why mention that the leviathan’s are extinct, and could leviathans use the same method that the traveler speaks to us through dreams just like the witness if that’s true, we might be into something big but the reason the veil was create of both light and dark was not from a ghost, it was probably from a leviathan corpse we seen leviathan corpse from the first disciple rulk imagine if there was millions of leviathan corpse fused with light of the traveler that could explain the Veil creation but here’s a second question how did the vex mind create their own Veil, not out of the vex mind, but how did they manage create the veil without leviathan corpses that could explain why the witness or the taken have been trying to infiltrate the black garden think about it the rules in both Gardener and winner, and who’s is now over seeing the rules now probably the Vex or who knows maybe the gardener in the winner
I still want to know where the vex and the nine fits in to all of this!!!
4:50 “do you know the way”
Evade out here cookin
Maybe the first Knife is something else, something that threatens both The Witness and The Traveller. Following the idea that using a knife will eventually erode the wielder's power, making the victim risk their life by fleeing.
"The universe makes us all victims" may be alluding to being threatened by the Knife to pursue the Final Shape.
So then The Witness lies* about the true final shape (the thing that lies at the end of the dexter road), makes an army to hopefully flee from the flower game and end everyone's suffering.
But, of course, fleeing in this context would mean the death of the entire universe, which is the Winnower's objective anyways......
My head hurts
* I suppose they're lying because not even two disciples can agree with each other as to what the Final Shape really is.
im surprised you didnt mention the final book in the root of nightmares lore, called winnowing. it talks about what a flower (a piece of the game) can know, the nature of the winnower, and the shape of the "first knife" itself, but the narrator cuts themselves off. It also talks about how gardens, once shaped, are dependent on both gardener and winnower.
"They require the hand of a gardener, for they have become weak and dependant on tender care, and they require the hand of a winnower to cut away the dross, for they are incapable of doing it themselves. In the absence of a hand, the plants must rise up themselves to wield the knife, or the garden will resolve into meaningless wilderness."
The book ends with this message: "There can be no gardens without knives."
he'll prob do a whole video on that, that entry was a continuation of unveiling it was the darkness/winnower itself speaking
maybe the most significant lore entry in the last 2 years
He knows de way
Perhaps the man that asks the sky for what road he should take represents The Traveler, and the man with the knife is The Witness or The Winnower and the knife itself is The Witness, and it tries to force the man to take the road (The Final Shape?), but the man flees, much like The Traveler did many times in the past.
I took it more that the man traveling the road represents the various disciples the Witness tricks into following his view of the Universe. They all give themselves over to the man that claims he knows what the wind "whispers" when in reality it doesn't whisper anything at all.
@@miniverse2002 Perhaps.
You could say it’s a time knife
Could the traveler have had another form? Maybe when the knife attacked the traveller played one of it's many games and put part of it's self into what we see as the traveler?
There’s a witness origin cutscene that’s been leaked and it explains what the witness is, why he’s tracking the traveler and what the veil is
And what if...the Witness is the Winnover and the first knife is the Darkness or a part of it. Like the light is the rule of the Gardener (Traveller)
Hunters are the final shape because we like knives.
the witness is literally introduced as hands forming from darkness..
I hope the end is more complicated than the traveler being the gardener and the witness being the winnower
they arent
Kinda sounds like the winnower is way to use to always winning the flower game.
Because it has. Winnower wanted simplicity while gardener wanted difference. Ultimately it just wanted the simplicity of the universe to one final shape as it won every time while gardener lost every time.
Yeah. The Gardener gets frustrated and decides she will join the game to ensure it will live but the Winnower also had to join
Winower cannot create, it can only corrupt what the gardener has made. These are their roles and their rules in the game. If the witness is not the winower itself, then at some point it was corrupted.
So the Witness is the Champion of the Darkness? His will. His Dream. His Answer of what the Light was going to do?
I like your videos keep doing best, destiny 2 videos 📷
What if we are just in a sim and we are part of the people of neomuna but what if even this is all the game as well and its all just existing within the differences on different scales. What reality makes what, what if the all realities are in a superposition where theyre all happening at once just within and around each other and the possibilities exist so we can imagine them even if we arent currently in that reality.
I also said the Witness might have a tragic past.
Nice!!!!❤❤
9:40 Kinda weird but what if its talking about us. Humans and were inside the machine sleeping? spoooooky.
1:04 same symbol exists in europa lost sector tho
Gardener and Winnower:Knives
Hunters:Amateurs
Could the itself darkness be the first knife?
This looks Cool
Maybe each "blade" is a pyramid ship?
I gotta say, the darkness was so much cooler when the darkness wasn’t being controlled by a lava-lamp Boohbah
What if the Veil is the knife?
If the light and dark are in a game with each other, maybe they created the Witness as a pure antagonist. Meant to drive both to their extremes in order to have a good game? Idk im high
(Edit) Oh he sorta says this
Is the Witness the Winnower's "first knife"?