The 80s was an amazing and exciting time for SF and music, among other things. It was also my most difficult decade personally. I had three major disasters happen to me, but I weathered the storm and ended the decade on a high note, all framed by Nueromancer, cyberpunks, punk rock, and the whole 80s cultural scene. Those were the days.
I didn't realise the Ace paperback original of Robinson's _The Wild Shore_ was scarce. I've had a copy for decades, albeit in acceptable/good condition only. Along with a number of his hardbacks, I got it signed when he was in Glasgow for SF Worldcon, 2005. Agreed, _Green Eyes_ is terrific! I have secondhand paperback copies of most of the titles you cover in this video, which I bought in the '90s when I was curating my library. Must confess, though: a number of them I still haven't gotten around to reading yet - - I've read my backlog of horror, fantasy and science fiction up to the end of the '70s, *so the '80s are next!* 😂
The Ace 'Wild Shore' is the world first. It's fairly uncommon, don't know how many were printed, probably quite a few thousand. Of course, most collectors do not regard a paperback as important and tend to want first hardcovers, but hang onto it. Bet I can find more 70s gems for you, give me time....
The joy of seeing a book that has been sat on my shelves for 25 years unread being vaunted as great book if not a masterpiece is unparalleled. It has happened time and time again as I dip randomly into your catalogue. This time it's that exact copy of Frontera. I have so many unread paperbacks from the past 50 years that your channel is compiling a TBR for me from my own shelves. I may just put Salvation Lost down and read a something from my book collecting past. Am I alone in spending more time watching videos about books than actually reading them?
Really enjoyed this one. I just bought Frontera off the enthusiasm of your review. Really looking forward to more of the SF in music & music in SF stuff - it really resonates with me.
I decided that Orson Scott Card was not for me very early in his career. I read a couple of his stories in Analog (and how I came to own copies of Analog is a mystery to me) and I found that both the stories featured scenes of torture and infliction of pain which I thought Card enjoyed too much. I didn't read anything more until Ender's Game came along. I know how popular it was and still is, but to me it seemed to be aimed at teenage boys who spend lots of time playing computer games and want to think that there is a reality where they are shooting real "buggers". Maybe it is a good juvenile novel, but I agree with your comment about the absence of sex in the book. It was not until much later that I found out about Scott's Mormon beliefs and his opinions on gay sex, and these just reinforced my views. The book is still very very popular and shows up on many people's top ten lists, but I still dislike it.
As I said, I find it a manipulative book. I wouldn't say I like it, but it is clever- but not as clever as people think it is. The social media aspect of it is impressively prescient though- it seemed very unlikely at the time, but now....
"The sky was the color of a tv set to a dead channel..." That opening line really gripped me, and it set the tone for the rest of the book. Despite having read some of the predecessors you mentioned, Neuromancer was unlike anything I'd ever seen before. It was love at first read... Unfortunately, that was the only time I read it. I'd bought what was probably the 1rst paperback edition in London (like one you've shown on your channel, minus autograph) but made the grave mistake of lending it to a friend. We didn't see each other for 10 years, and when I asked him about it he just laughed(!) Jerk... Anyway, another great video, very informative, some of the authors I didn't know about. Really stoked about that Frontera novel!
'Frontera' is great, I think you'll love it- get hold of 'Dr Adder' by K W Jeter as well, predates the Gibson by a decade but not issued until the same year. Gibson's first novel still stands up for me and the style is what kills all the competition. There are so many great lines, get another copy...
Pacific Edge sounded like an interesting premise but as the plot unfolded the stakes felt so low for the themes it was trying to cover that I struggled to finish.
Exactly, it may be tackling real world issues - the whole water thing etc (and I grew up in an area where this was a huge problem, so it was relatable to me, but still very dull!)- but it lacked drama, I felt.
Some great book recommendations there Steve. Could be expensive! I read a fair bit of Greg Bear back in the day. I haven't seen that edition of Eon before I have a hb on its way to me that I assumed was a 1st, but it’s not that one. A 2nd Ed perhaps. 👍
Yes, I must say I enjoyed digging a lot of those beauties out! The 'Eon' is of course as you divine the true UK first, though the World First was of course the US one. Cheers Jon!
I can't find a lot to quibble with here, apart from your ordering, which comes down to personal preference anyway. For me ... 1. Lucius Shepard, 2. Michael Bishop, 3. Lewis Shiner, 4. William Gibson... as for the rest, pick and mix. I bought Life During Wartime because Mike Bishop told me it was the best novel of any kind he'd read for years. Philip K. Dick is Dead Alas is in print from Kudzu Planet, you'll understand the relevance of that, an imprint dedicated to Mike Bishop's books and part of Fairwood Press. It's odd to hear you describe MB as a humanist, even though I understand what you mean, as he is a man of strong religious faith. I gave up reading Orson Scitt Card many years ago, when his Mormon beliefs became too overt in his writing, but I remember thinking that Ender's Game was pretty good.
I've been emaning to re-read 'Speaker for the Dead' for ages- I wasn't fussed on it at the time, but I suspect in these internet days I may find it interesting again. There was so much good stuff from the States in those years.
All due love and respect to its forebears, “Voice of the Whirlwind” is my favorite Cyberpunk novel. What a completely fun read. Also, a great listen. The audiobook is on TH-cam. When I read “Blood Music” I had no idea what it was about, so what a pleasant surprise. What a story, that ending has really stayed with me.
I have 'Implied Spaces' on my enormous TBR currently. I've read 'Blood Music' three times- maybe four- always enjoyed it. 'Eon' is less me though, I never get on with Big Dumb Object novels...
Watched the presentation, I look forward to looking for some of the books you mentioned, particularly Lucius Shepard. The John Clute SF encyclopedia mentions Stephen Barnes who wrote Streetlethal and hints that it is early cyberpunk.
Clute is THE MAN. I don't always agree with him, but his work is what critics should aim for. Peter Nicholls, his collab on he first two editions was great too- these are the guys I admire deeply and they taught me a lot. That's Steven with a V, you mean, he is best known for collaborations with Niven and Pournelle- black writer- otherwise neglected, you don't see his stuff much, especially in the UK. NESFA do a book of his stuff. I'm always looking out for work by him but never see it over here.
Pretty fascinating, to me at least, your observation about the "bestsellery" prose of the 90s. One of the things I'm growing to love about pre-90s is the originality, the rawness of the prose. Except for superb stylists like Zelazny, Silverberg, LeGuin, or even Poul Anderson, at times, you get the feeling they cared more intensely about story. Even as a kid, I noticed the shift in prose style (because I imitated it). But in the 50s, due to the overpowering influence of Hemingway, you do find that staccato of clipped declarative sentences, the repetitions, infecting so many writers. I actually think the Hemingway thing worked well for Bradbury--the way it gave structure to his poetical bursts, though at times the influence feels a bit much. I agree: Bradbury's creativity was on the wane in the 80s; however, in the public's mind, he got extra gas from The Ray Bradbury Theater, Something Wicked This Way Comes, and his Fahrenheit was being taught in American high schools. Sorry for the bee buzzing in my bonnet. I still worship Bradbury; I can't escape him. Another great video, Outlaw.
Yes, Hemingway had a big impact, you have to have read the writers before him to really get it, as he encouraged people to strip things down in a good way. For me, balance between style and economy is the thing, most of the time. Aldiss said of Robinson that his early work appeared to be literature, but actually only looked like it. I feel this way about much of the 90s US SF I've read, where there's a veneer of sophistication and scope but a lack of voice- and Bradbury, Gibson and Shepard have voice.
When you get to Gene Wolfe--please include The Book of the Short Sun! Everyone talks about the New Sun--justifiably because it's brilliant. While the Long Sun is discernibly tertiary and necessary, the Short Sun is as good as the New Sun, but the last sentences bring it all around in proper Wolfe style. (a recall of The Fifth Head of Cerberus, another brilliant trilogy of novellas). As far as Orson Scott Card goes--I agree that Speaker was as far as should have gone. Speaker was better than Ender's Game. I read the rest of them and the Bean (Shadow) stories start out very good, but hardly worth the investment. From Card, Worthing and Capitol are also good. But I lost interest in the 80's with the Alvin Maker books--starting all right, but I drifted off before I finished them. Just re-read this and found I'm talking between the ardent Catholic against the Mormon. (Me? I'm fervent atheist, but love Wolfe, whose catholicism is deep in his writing.)
For me all three " Sun books " are equally magnificent. I think I get why some people ( & yourself it seems ) think less of Long Sun ... Wolfe does something special with Long Sun . I just finished ( two days ago ) re-reading it for a third time & enjoyed it immensely. Anyways, question about Short Sun : Are you in the camp that Blue is Urth/ Ushas & Green is the Moon ? Or other way around... ? ( Because some dudes on Urth Mailing List years ago claimed that old ruined city with canal on Green is actually Nessus ) Case for Blue being Urth is Seawrack's " Mother " , the giant being living in the deep of the ocean...Abaia, Erebus or some of their kind ?
It's unlikely I'll cover the Sun books in any depth for some time. I'll be looking at other books I feel are more neglected first, as I feel there are things to say that are less likely to have been said elswhere.
So many great works have been neglected. I'd much rather learn about those I've missed than those I've been privileged to read! Thanks.@@outlawbookselleroriginal
Great list. Finally got to watch the full video. Love seeing Gibson and Sterling included. Greg Bear was great and much of my reading in the 80s and 90s included a lot of Bear, Card, and Gibson. Great video
Thanks for that, glad you liked it. Yeah, I read those guys a lot then too of course, but then I was so immersed in SF throughout the eighties, which was an amazing time for the genre. Good to hear from you, hope you are doing well! Always a pleasure to see you comment, your channel is still shooting great bullets as well, my friend!
The Memory of Whiteness is the only Robinson novel I’ve liked so far. It is quite special. Writing intelligently about classical music is apparently a difficult thing, though James Blish, Jack Vance and Orson Scott Card have done well at it. But this is the locus classicus, no?
Another excellent video. Loved Life During Wartime when I first read it, so it is nice to see Shepard get some overdue recognition. Reading Involution Ocean now per your recommendation in a previous video (Punk in Cyberpunk?) and quite enjoying it. Not familiar with Michael Bishop but I've snagged a couple of his paperbacks (Stolen Faces and Eyes of Fire I think) recently so looking forward to reading those. Gonna keep an eye out for Ancient of Days. Thanks again for another great video.
Those are early Bishops, very florid and ornate and spiky and not representative of his 80s work, but very enjoyable nonetheless. 'Involution' is a romp, but an ever-entertaining and irreverent one. Shepard is horribly neglected now and seems to have no equivalents emerging in the last twenty years-back in the 80s he had lots of literary competition in the States, but now....
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thanks for the info. And thanks for the videos. First, I seem to find books by authors you mention the next day. Found my first Bob Shaw after you mentioned him awhile ago, and today I found Bishop's Transfigurations and No Enemy But Time. Second, you definitely helped reignited my love of science fiction, making me realize there's still a lot of great books I've missed out on. And reminding me of why I loved the genre in the first place. So thank you again.
It all started to die in the 90s with the zeitgeist of post-modernism. I feel like I lost my own soul when I actually got old enough to go to bars (21 years in the US) to listen to music. It seems like all the art forms started to go towards a direction of self-parody and the spirit of discovery and experimentation was lost. It was as if in the creative mind, the western expansion ended, all the natives were sent to reservations where the spirit was left to die. Really I see your videos as one of the last testament of a spirit of aliveness that was lost. I know you showcase more recent works and authors to show there is hope that the pilot light of creativity has not been completely extinguished, but it definitely is not widespread as it once was in the arts. There has always been an oppressive conformity that was mainstream but the underground and the outlaws like yourself could still thrive - now it is so hard. The phoenix will rise again - Excalibur was rediscovered - we just have to hold tight and keep the flame of creativity from going out.
I've spoken about this a lot in earlier videos where I've talked about how SF is Modernist genre, how Modernism is over and that current SF is Contemporary, not Modern. I was thinking today about how obvious it is that Culture has slowed down in the last 35 years while tech has speeded up. I saw a young woman in her early 20s wearing a Nirvana T-Shirt - fine it itself, but it made me think that if I'd worn a T-Shirt referring to a band from 30 plus years ago when I was the lady's age, it would have related to a band from before rock and roll was born. It was a cardinal example of how so little has happened culturally since the late 1980s when Postmodernism became a thing big time.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Nirvana is one of those bands I peg as a parody of themselves. Smells like Teen Spirit is like a parody of punk rock. It signified the end to me in which the rebellion is now a commodity at a shopping mall like some cologne spray (I guess the Who did it 30 years earlier with the song Substitute or the Stones with Satisfaction). Whereas you take the Stranglers, they seemed undefinable constantly evolving their sound - their sound seemed wide open. I still hear the chorus to "Life Shows No Mercy" every time I get frustrated with one thing or another. That came out in the 80s. Yes 80s music compressed the sound, synthesized it and people parodied that as well. I think of YMO or Kraftwerk - were self-parodying in a way as well - Kraftwerk performing as robots - showing how we are all becoming robots. Rick Beato, the music producer and teacher, goes on a lot about the death of music. It does feel like we are searching for our soul past the takeover of our technology. We are becoming stripped of what we define as being human. Before I discovered you I was reading Bobiverse books recommended by a reddit group. The story was ok but it is basically about Human consciousness transmigrating into machine parts. I don't even know why anyone would even bother. I think the AI will just dispose of us completely - why do we need any humanity at all let alone put us into a can opener. Anyways, I am just ranting here. I hope I am doing an ok job trying to absorb all of your years of insight into the art of speculative inquiry. We will make it to our promised land some day. In the meanwhile, I have a lot of catching up to do in reading - I just purchased your 2 books, 100 Must Read Science Fiction Novels and 100 Must Read Books For Men. Your Fantasy book is out of print over here ( I read them on kindle - the only version available is a hardback for over $100). I am hoping that someday I will be a real SF buff of the modernist kind - to hopefully discover someday what happened to the spirit of creativity, exploration, and wonder and see how to bring it back from the dead.
@@spiraldaddy Agree re Nirvana. The Bobiverse things are self-published, dead giveaway. David Bunch did that whole thing much more effectively in the 1960s. Modernism was a moment that sadly was doomed to die as the mass media conditioned us into an endless desire for novelty and creativity that was bound to run out- before the Age of Mechanical Reproduction (photography, film, mass print) not even the richest despots could discover all the world's art. Now, we get through it in less than a lifetime and are left trackless. This is the challenge facing all the arts since the end of the 1980s.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I bought that Manzanera Album Diamond Head in the early 90s - I love that album! I listened to all the Eno albums as well - they were the spirit! You haven't heard you talk about King Crimson yet - though you threw out some YES references. Old Genesis too - Talking Heads - incredible! This was the music that fueled me through the 90s when I couldn't consume the parody music.
I find at least one book or author every episode a major discovery more than that here. Fantastic stuff, my first buy will be Lewis shiner frontera but green eyes jumps out too. Gibsons a work of modern art some don’t understand and many Revere . Gold again buddy🫡
Ender's Game was my favorite book as a kid - I probably called it my favorite until 18-19 years old. I'm a big sucker for thriller plots with genius main characters, and because I predicted the twist, I felt incredible at the time. Now, I especially appreciate the empathetic angle towards the Hive Queen, and while Speaker is much less thrilling, I really appreciate how he worldbuilds different aliens. As a gay man, the shock of learning his later views really affected me. A trans best friend of mine also loves the books (mainly the first two), and we have discussed endless times how someone with such empathy for alien others could have such heinous views about us.
I don't understand why people can't separate the author from the work. I really try to understand but I fail miserably! I know people who've thrown out entire collections they built up of Harry Potter simply because JK Rowling has a different opinion to them. It really is bizarre!
@@GypsyRoSesx I don't know how to respond to that. If you have an actual question then I'm more than happy to answer it. If you wish to just make a statement or to attack my comment then please do so, I will read it and consider it.
@@GypsyRoSesx Well I ask the question because I'm trying to learn that's the first of it. Secondly I can separate the art from the artist because I'm only interested in the story. I don't get emotionally involved in their private life or their political views. I am a straight white man, I don't think I'd ever watch a modern movie if I wasn't able to overlook some of the current political views held in Hollywood and just enjoy the story that they're telling. I do tend to dislike movies set in an historical context with unrealistic diversity, but that's because I find it distracting more than anything else. Although I do read copious amounts of history books so I'm not easily pleased with that type of movie anyway because they change the story too much.
@@GypsyRoSesx The last I heard from him on that subject was that he was consumed by jealousy because they do things for their own community that he feels his people fail to do. I don't think he is as hateful as he made himself sound, but he should've been more careful as a famous person who has great influence over young people. I don't listen to his music either, I was always more of a rocker. I like to hear the guitar and the drums.
@@GypsyRoSesxI've read them, I didn't see them straight away because I've just had to go out and I left my phone behind. I don't tend to delete comments I just leave them, but thanks for the conversation. Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Very even handed. Well done, I'm sure of those selections must have stuck in your craw. I look forward to a longer discourse on that long haired hippy Effinger.
Interesting video, thank you. Several of these books I knew already and several I... didn't. FYI the cover of Norman Spinrad's _Little Heroes_ depicts not a Synclavier (which, at the time that LH was published, referred to a specific, somewhat revolutionary digital synthesizer [sic] made by New England Digital) but rather a _keytar_ Also, later in the Ender series, Valentine gets laid. *Spoiler* Thank you, Mr. Andrews
Yeah, I was trawling my memory spontaneously for the correct term, but being a man devoted to analogue synths since the 70s, it had drifted into the ether. I think I can cope with not getting that far into the Wiggin Kids series...LOL.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Most of my synthesisers are digital. Even my OSCar sports DCOs (in place of VCOs, obviously}. I do like my Yamaha CS01, though. Concerning the Ender saga, indeed it becomes increasingly disinteresting (the term is intended as a verb, here).
Watch my videos on Hauntology and Psychogeography in SF to discover why: 'Why you like the science fiction books with the old covers' and 'Why the modern science fiction you're reading isn't modern'. Fave WG? 'Neuomancer', the short stories, 'Count Zero', Blue Ant Trilogy. Read everything, of course.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal ive seen the first but cant remember bout the second. will watch/re-watch both read neuromancer and currently reading burning chrome. ordering pattern recognition soon
I’m only halfway through the video but I can’t help reflecting on how lucky I feel that this channel exists! Beautiful books too 😍
Yes, there are some nice ones in this video! Always want to be worthy of your time as an audience, Rose, you rock!
The 80s was an amazing and exciting time for SF and music, among other things. It was also my most difficult decade personally. I had three major disasters happen to me, but I weathered the storm and ended the decade on a high note, all framed by Nueromancer, cyberpunks, punk rock, and the whole 80s cultural scene. Those were the days.
I had a great time in the 80s, there were downs as well, of course, but mostly ups. My most difficult decade was 2010 to....well, now really!
@@outlawbookselleroriginal having been through the crucible I feel you. Hang in there. What you're doing is precious.
best spent hour today, certainly. thank you for these. they're great.
KSR’s 2312 has a 40+ pp chapter about walking straight through a tunnel. Feel you on the grind of reading. Fabulous material, somewhat dull execution
That's the thing- he often has great ideas, but the telling....
I continue to read everything Swanwick publishes. Glad to see an appreciation for early Sterling.
Enjoyed immensely!!
Thanks! More like this coming.
Great video. I hope Pat Cadigan’s Synners is in your video on women writers of the ‘80s.
It's in my '100 Must Read Science Fiction Novels' and I'm reacquiring it soon, so it's a Yes.
I didn't realise the Ace paperback original of Robinson's _The Wild Shore_ was scarce. I've had a copy for decades, albeit in acceptable/good condition only. Along with a number of his hardbacks, I got it signed when he was in Glasgow for SF Worldcon, 2005.
Agreed, _Green Eyes_ is terrific! I have secondhand paperback copies of most of the titles you cover in this video, which I bought in the '90s when I was curating my library. Must confess, though: a number of them I still haven't gotten around to reading yet -
- I've read my backlog of horror, fantasy and science fiction up to the end of the '70s, *so the '80s are next!* 😂
The Ace 'Wild Shore' is the world first. It's fairly uncommon, don't know how many were printed, probably quite a few thousand. Of course, most collectors do not regard a paperback as important and tend to want first hardcovers, but hang onto it.
Bet I can find more 70s gems for you, give me time....
The Mars chapter(s) in Vacuum Flowers is hilarious.
The joy of seeing a book that has been sat on my shelves for 25 years unread being vaunted as great book if not a masterpiece is unparalleled.
It has happened time and time again as I dip randomly into your catalogue. This time it's that exact copy of Frontera.
I have so many unread paperbacks from the past 50 years that your channel is compiling a TBR for me from my own shelves.
I may just put Salvation Lost down and read a something from my book collecting past.
Am I alone in spending more time watching videos about books than actually reading them?
I now spend more time making videos about books than reading them- good to hear you have 'Frontera' aside! Good to hear from you.
Really enjoyed this one.
I just bought Frontera off the enthusiasm of your review.
Really looking forward to more of the SF in music & music in SF stuff - it really resonates with me.
More of SF/Music crossover to come. Let me know how you get on with 'Frontera'.
I decided that Orson Scott Card was not for me very early in his career. I read a couple of his stories in Analog (and how I came to own copies of Analog is a mystery to me) and I found that both the stories featured scenes of torture and infliction of pain which I thought Card enjoyed too much. I didn't read anything more until Ender's Game came along. I know how popular it was and still is, but to me it seemed to be aimed at teenage boys who spend lots of time playing computer games and want to think that there is a reality where they are shooting real "buggers". Maybe it is a good juvenile novel, but I agree with your comment about the absence of sex in the book. It was not until much later that I found out about Scott's Mormon beliefs and his opinions on gay sex, and these just reinforced my views. The book is still very very popular and shows up on many people's top ten lists, but I still dislike it.
As I said, I find it a manipulative book. I wouldn't say I like it, but it is clever- but not as clever as people think it is. The social media aspect of it is impressively prescient though- it seemed very unlikely at the time, but now....
"The sky was the color of a tv set to a dead channel..." That opening line really gripped me, and it set the tone for the rest of the book. Despite having read some of the predecessors you mentioned, Neuromancer was unlike anything I'd ever seen before. It was love at first read...
Unfortunately, that was the only time I read it. I'd bought what was probably the 1rst paperback edition in London (like one you've shown on your channel, minus autograph) but made the grave mistake of lending it to a friend. We didn't see each other for 10 years, and when I asked him about it he just laughed(!) Jerk...
Anyway, another great video, very informative, some of the authors I didn't know about. Really stoked about that Frontera novel!
'Frontera' is great, I think you'll love it- get hold of 'Dr Adder' by K W Jeter as well, predates the Gibson by a decade but not issued until the same year. Gibson's first novel still stands up for me and the style is what kills all the competition. There are so many great lines, get another copy...
Pacific Edge sounded like an interesting premise but as the plot unfolded the stakes felt so low for the themes it was trying to cover that I struggled to finish.
Exactly, it may be tackling real world issues - the whole water thing etc (and I grew up in an area where this was a huge problem, so it was relatable to me, but still very dull!)- but it lacked drama, I felt.
Another excellent conversation, Steve! Frontera is on the way here now.
Why, thanks! Appreciated! Let me know how you get on with the Shiner!
WOW... why am I so excited, I've got to read Gibson again. More Sterling, and I didn't ever read Shiner or Shepard... Now I must. Thank You.
Shine and Shep- you'll love them, mate!
Some great book recommendations there Steve. Could be expensive! I read a fair bit of Greg Bear back in the day. I haven't seen that edition of Eon before I have a hb on its way to me that I assumed was a 1st, but it’s not that one. A 2nd Ed perhaps. 👍
Yes, I must say I enjoyed digging a lot of those beauties out! The 'Eon' is of course as you divine the true UK first, though the World First was of course the US one. Cheers Jon!
Hard Wired and Voice of the Whirlwind are two of my favorites.
Same here!
I can't find a lot to quibble with here, apart from your ordering, which comes down to personal preference anyway. For me ... 1. Lucius Shepard, 2. Michael Bishop, 3. Lewis Shiner, 4. William Gibson... as for the rest, pick and mix.
I bought Life During Wartime because Mike Bishop told me it was the best novel of any kind he'd read for years.
Philip K. Dick is Dead Alas is in print from Kudzu Planet, you'll understand the relevance of that, an imprint dedicated to Mike Bishop's books and part of Fairwood Press. It's odd to hear you describe MB as a humanist, even though I understand what you mean, as he is a man of strong religious faith.
I gave up reading Orson Scitt Card many years ago, when his Mormon beliefs became too overt in his writing, but I remember thinking that Ender's Game was pretty good.
I've been emaning to re-read 'Speaker for the Dead' for ages- I wasn't fussed on it at the time, but I suspect in these internet days I may find it interesting again. There was so much good stuff from the States in those years.
All due love and respect to its forebears, “Voice of the Whirlwind” is my favorite Cyberpunk novel. What a completely fun read. Also, a great listen. The audiobook is on TH-cam.
When I read “Blood Music” I had no idea what it was about, so what a pleasant surprise. What a story, that ending has really stayed with me.
I have 'Implied Spaces' on my enormous TBR currently. I've read 'Blood Music' three times- maybe four- always enjoyed it. 'Eon' is less me though, I never get on with Big Dumb Object novels...
Watched the presentation, I look forward to looking for some of the books you mentioned, particularly Lucius Shepard. The John Clute SF encyclopedia mentions Stephen Barnes who wrote Streetlethal and hints that it is early cyberpunk.
Clute is THE MAN. I don't always agree with him, but his work is what critics should aim for. Peter Nicholls, his collab on he first two editions was great too- these are the guys I admire deeply and they taught me a lot. That's Steven with a V, you mean, he is best known for collaborations with Niven and Pournelle- black writer- otherwise neglected, you don't see his stuff much, especially in the UK. NESFA do a book of his stuff. I'm always looking out for work by him but never see it over here.
I recall that Eon gives big nods to Ralph Nader and "the Naderites" but I can't remember in what context now! Been a long time.
Same here!
Pretty fascinating, to me at least, your observation about the "bestsellery" prose of the 90s. One of the things I'm growing to love about pre-90s is the originality, the rawness of the prose. Except for superb stylists like Zelazny, Silverberg, LeGuin, or even Poul Anderson, at times, you get the feeling they cared more intensely about story. Even as a kid, I noticed the shift in prose style (because I imitated it). But in the 50s, due to the overpowering influence of Hemingway, you do find that staccato of clipped declarative sentences, the repetitions, infecting so many writers. I actually think the Hemingway thing worked well for Bradbury--the way it gave structure to his poetical bursts, though at times the influence feels a bit much. I agree: Bradbury's creativity was on the wane in the 80s; however, in the public's mind, he got extra gas from The Ray Bradbury Theater, Something Wicked This Way Comes, and his Fahrenheit was being taught in American high schools. Sorry for the bee buzzing in my bonnet. I still worship Bradbury; I can't escape him. Another great video, Outlaw.
Yes, Hemingway had a big impact, you have to have read the writers before him to really get it, as he encouraged people to strip things down in a good way. For me, balance between style and economy is the thing, most of the time. Aldiss said of Robinson that his early work appeared to be literature, but actually only looked like it. I feel this way about much of the 90s US SF I've read, where there's a veneer of sophistication and scope but a lack of voice- and Bradbury, Gibson and Shepard have voice.
I ❤ My sci-fi grandpa so much... Thank you!!!
Williams has returned to Naval Fiction only with spaceships.
Great content Steve!
Cheers Matthew!
When you get to Gene Wolfe--please include The Book of the Short Sun! Everyone talks about the New Sun--justifiably because it's brilliant. While the Long Sun is discernibly tertiary and necessary, the Short Sun is as good as the New Sun, but the last sentences bring it all around in proper Wolfe style. (a recall of The Fifth Head of Cerberus, another brilliant trilogy of novellas). As far as Orson Scott Card goes--I agree that Speaker was as far as should have gone. Speaker was better than Ender's Game. I read the rest of them and the Bean (Shadow) stories start out very good, but hardly worth the investment. From Card, Worthing and Capitol are also good. But I lost interest in the 80's with the Alvin Maker books--starting all right, but I drifted off before I finished them. Just re-read this and found I'm talking between the ardent Catholic against the Mormon. (Me? I'm fervent atheist, but love Wolfe, whose catholicism is deep in his writing.)
For me all three " Sun books " are equally magnificent. I think I get why some people ( & yourself it seems ) think less of Long Sun ... Wolfe does something special with Long Sun . I just finished ( two days ago ) re-reading it for a third time & enjoyed it immensely.
Anyways, question about Short Sun : Are you in the camp that Blue is Urth/ Ushas & Green is the Moon ? Or other way around... ? ( Because some dudes on Urth Mailing List years ago claimed that old ruined city with canal on Green is actually Nessus )
Case for Blue being Urth is Seawrack's " Mother " , the giant being living in the deep of the ocean...Abaia, Erebus or some of their kind ?
It's unlikely I'll cover the Sun books in any depth for some time. I'll be looking at other books I feel are more neglected first, as I feel there are things to say that are less likely to have been said elswhere.
So many great works have been neglected. I'd much rather learn about those I've missed than those I've been privileged to read! Thanks.@@outlawbookselleroriginal
Great list. Finally got to watch the full video. Love seeing Gibson and Sterling included. Greg Bear was great and much of my reading in the 80s and 90s included a lot of Bear, Card, and Gibson. Great video
Thanks for that, glad you liked it. Yeah, I read those guys a lot then too of course, but then I was so immersed in SF throughout the eighties, which was an amazing time for the genre. Good to hear from you, hope you are doing well! Always a pleasure to see you comment, your channel is still shooting great bullets as well, my friend!
The Memory of Whiteness is the only Robinson novel I’ve liked so far. It is quite special.
Writing intelligently about classical music is apparently a difficult thing, though James Blish, Jack Vance and Orson Scott Card have done well at it. But this is the locus classicus, no?
I like 'Memory' too, best of all the early stuff.
Would love to see you do a Gene Wolfe video, curious what you think of him.
There will be at least 3 Wolfe videos but not for some time, probably only one before 2024, I need to reread a lot of his work.
Another excellent video. Loved Life During Wartime when I first read it, so it is nice to see Shepard get some overdue recognition. Reading Involution Ocean now per your recommendation in a previous video (Punk in Cyberpunk?) and quite enjoying it. Not familiar with Michael Bishop but I've snagged a couple of his paperbacks (Stolen Faces and Eyes of Fire I think) recently so looking forward to reading those. Gonna keep an eye out for Ancient of Days. Thanks again for another great video.
Those are early Bishops, very florid and ornate and spiky and not representative of his 80s work, but very enjoyable nonetheless. 'Involution' is a romp, but an ever-entertaining and irreverent one. Shepard is horribly neglected now and seems to have no equivalents emerging in the last twenty years-back in the 80s he had lots of literary competition in the States, but now....
Hi Stephen, I happened to find a Tanith Lee book called Silver Metal Lover. Plan to read soon but wondered if you had an opinion?
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Thanks for the info. And thanks for the videos. First, I seem to find books by authors you mention the next day. Found my first Bob Shaw after you mentioned him awhile ago, and today I found Bishop's Transfigurations and No Enemy But Time. Second, you definitely helped reignited my love of science fiction, making me realize there's still a lot of great books I've missed out on. And reminding me of why I loved the genre in the first place. So thank you again.
It all started to die in the 90s with the zeitgeist of post-modernism. I feel like I lost my own soul when I actually got old enough to go to bars (21 years in the US) to listen to music. It seems like all the art forms started to go towards a direction of self-parody and the spirit of discovery and experimentation was lost. It was as if in the creative mind, the western expansion ended, all the natives were sent to reservations where the spirit was left to die. Really I see your videos as one of the last testament of a spirit of aliveness that was lost. I know you showcase more recent works and authors to show there is hope that the pilot light of creativity has not been completely extinguished, but it definitely is not widespread as it once was in the arts. There has always been an oppressive conformity that was mainstream but the underground and the outlaws like yourself could still thrive - now it is so hard. The phoenix will rise again - Excalibur was rediscovered - we just have to hold tight and keep the flame of creativity from going out.
I've spoken about this a lot in earlier videos where I've talked about how SF is Modernist genre, how Modernism is over and that current SF is Contemporary, not Modern. I was thinking today about how obvious it is that Culture has slowed down in the last 35 years while tech has speeded up. I saw a young woman in her early 20s wearing a Nirvana T-Shirt - fine it itself, but it made me think that if I'd worn a T-Shirt referring to a band from 30 plus years ago when I was the lady's age, it would have related to a band from before rock and roll was born. It was a cardinal example of how so little has happened culturally since the late 1980s when Postmodernism became a thing big time.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Nirvana is one of those bands I peg as a parody of themselves. Smells like Teen Spirit is like a parody of punk rock. It signified the end to me in which the rebellion is now a commodity at a shopping mall like some cologne spray (I guess the Who did it 30 years earlier with the song Substitute or the Stones with Satisfaction). Whereas you take the Stranglers, they seemed undefinable constantly evolving their sound - their sound seemed wide open. I still hear the chorus to "Life Shows No Mercy" every time I get frustrated with one thing or another. That came out in the 80s. Yes 80s music compressed the sound, synthesized it and people parodied that as well. I think of YMO or Kraftwerk - were self-parodying in a way as well - Kraftwerk performing as robots - showing how we are all becoming robots. Rick Beato, the music producer and teacher, goes on a lot about the death of music. It does feel like we are searching for our soul past the takeover of our technology. We are becoming stripped of what we define as being human. Before I discovered you I was reading Bobiverse books recommended by a reddit group. The story was ok but it is basically about Human consciousness transmigrating into machine parts. I don't even know why anyone would even bother. I think the AI will just dispose of us completely - why do we need any humanity at all let alone put us into a can opener. Anyways, I am just ranting here. I hope I am doing an ok job trying to absorb all of your years of insight into the art of speculative inquiry. We will make it to our promised land some day. In the meanwhile, I have a lot of catching up to do in reading - I just purchased your 2 books, 100 Must Read Science Fiction Novels and 100 Must Read Books For Men. Your Fantasy book is out of print over here ( I read them on kindle - the only version available is a hardback for over $100). I am hoping that someday I will be a real SF buff of the modernist kind - to hopefully discover someday what happened to the spirit of creativity, exploration, and wonder and see how to bring it back from the dead.
@@spiraldaddy Agree re Nirvana. The Bobiverse things are self-published, dead giveaway. David Bunch did that whole thing much more effectively in the 1960s. Modernism was a moment that sadly was doomed to die as the mass media conditioned us into an endless desire for novelty and creativity that was bound to run out- before the Age of Mechanical Reproduction (photography, film, mass print) not even the richest despots could discover all the world's art. Now, we get through it in less than a lifetime and are left trackless. This is the challenge facing all the arts since the end of the 1980s.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal What a predicament! All we can do is accept the challenge and keep moving forward into that trackless expanse.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal I bought that Manzanera Album Diamond Head in the early 90s - I love that album! I listened to all the Eno albums as well - they were the spirit! You haven't heard you talk about King Crimson yet - though you threw out some YES references. Old Genesis too - Talking Heads - incredible! This was the music that fueled me through the 90s when I couldn't consume the parody music.
I find at least one book or author every episode a major discovery more than that here. Fantastic stuff, my first buy will be Lewis shiner frontera but green eyes jumps out too. Gibsons a work of modern art some don’t understand and many Revere . Gold again buddy🫡
'Frontera' is fierce.
Ender's Game was my favorite book as a kid - I probably called it my favorite until 18-19 years old. I'm a big sucker for thriller plots with genius main characters, and because I predicted the twist, I felt incredible at the time. Now, I especially appreciate the empathetic angle towards the Hive Queen, and while Speaker is much less thrilling, I really appreciate how he worldbuilds different aliens.
As a gay man, the shock of learning his later views really affected me. A trans best friend of mine also loves the books (mainly the first two), and we have discussed endless times how someone with such empathy for alien others could have such heinous views about us.
I don't understand why people can't separate the author from the work. I really try to understand but I fail miserably! I know people who've thrown out entire collections they built up of Harry Potter simply because JK Rowling has a different opinion to them. It really is bizarre!
@@GypsyRoSesx I don't know how to respond to that. If you have an actual question then I'm more than happy to answer it. If you wish to just make a statement or to attack my comment then please do so, I will read it and consider it.
@@GypsyRoSesx Well I ask the question because I'm trying to learn that's the first of it. Secondly I can separate the art from the artist because I'm only interested in the story. I don't get emotionally involved in their private life or their political views. I am a straight white man, I don't think I'd ever watch a modern movie if I wasn't able to overlook some of the current political views held in Hollywood and just enjoy the story that they're telling.
I do tend to dislike movies set in an historical context with unrealistic diversity, but that's because I find it distracting more than anything else. Although I do read copious amounts of history books so I'm not easily pleased with that type of movie anyway because they change the story too much.
@@GypsyRoSesx The last I heard from him on that subject was that he was consumed by jealousy because they do things for their own community that he feels his people fail to do.
I don't think he is as hateful as he made himself sound, but he should've been more careful as a famous person who has great influence over young people.
I don't listen to his music either, I was always more of a rocker. I like to hear the guitar and the drums.
@@GypsyRoSesxI've read them, I didn't see them straight away because I've just had to go out and I left my phone behind.
I don't tend to delete comments I just leave them, but thanks for the conversation. Enjoy the rest of your evening.
Very even handed. Well done, I'm sure of those selections must have stuck in your craw. I look forward to a longer discourse on that long haired hippy Effinger.
Yes, had I been more subjective Jeter and Effinger would have been there, but as I say another couple of 80s USA lineups will come...
Interesting video, thank you. Several of these books I knew already and several I... didn't.
FYI the cover of Norman Spinrad's _Little Heroes_ depicts not a Synclavier (which, at the time that LH was published, referred to a specific, somewhat revolutionary digital synthesizer [sic] made by New England Digital) but rather a _keytar_
Also, later in the Ender series, Valentine gets laid. *Spoiler*
Thank you, Mr. Andrews
Yeah, I was trawling my memory spontaneously for the correct term, but being a man devoted to analogue synths since the 70s, it had drifted into the ether. I think I can cope with not getting that far into the Wiggin Kids series...LOL.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal Most of my synthesisers are digital. Even my OSCar sports DCOs (in place of VCOs, obviously}. I do like my Yamaha CS01, though.
Concerning the Ender saga, indeed it becomes increasingly disinteresting (the term is intended as a verb, here).
Thanks
Many, many thanks, Greg!
interesting & sad weve never truly moved past the 80s
what r ur favorite gibsons?
Watch my videos on Hauntology and Psychogeography in SF to discover why: 'Why you like the science fiction books with the old covers' and 'Why the modern science fiction you're reading isn't modern'. Fave WG? 'Neuomancer', the short stories, 'Count Zero', Blue Ant Trilogy. Read everything, of course.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal ive seen the first but cant remember bout the second. will watch/re-watch both
read neuromancer and currently reading burning chrome. ordering pattern recognition soon
@@forinthemorning0400 These are good moves.
@@outlawbookselleroriginal had seen both but glad i re-watched. 2 of ur best
@@forinthemorning0400 Just posted a new video, looking at Neuromancer as a mood piece, with numerous cultural references.