I actually agree that movie Glinda was a villain, but not because "all witches are bad." (I happen to be a Druidic Pagan myself.) It's because of the underlying plot, and how she used Dorothy to eliminate all her political competition.
As others have said, fairy tales in general can be quite gruesome. In the original Cinderella tale, for example, the wicked step sisters decide to make glass slippers of their own to take to the ball, but the slippers weren't the right fit so they shatter on the dance floor - the wicked step sisters then run out of the ball stepping in glass shards until crows come out and pluck their eyes out. One of the Aesops fables includes a dog drowning to death because he wanted to chase a bone he saw in his reflection. The Juniper Tree in Grimm's Fairy Tales is about a man killing his son on accident and burying him under a tree without telling anyone, only for a robin to come and mock him relentlessly threatening to expose him as a murderer (he attempts to kill the Robin and IIRC gets strangled by the tree or something). I really could go on and on. Another important point is that L Frank Baum was a big fan of Lewis G Caroll and had the same philosophy when writing Wizard of Oz as Lewis G Caroll did when writing Alice In Wonderland - which is that entertainment should be just that, entertainment. Messaging is all fine and good but at the time (post-Civil War, pre-World War era) most literature, especially fairy tales of the time, were so filled with "The Message (TM)" that it made for very boring and preachy stories that felt almost insulting. So both stories were intentionally written to have no deeper themes. People ascribed meanings and themes to them later on (hippies famously argue Alice In Wonderland is about a drug trip for example), but their only purpose as stories is to be fun to read. Nothing more, nothing less.
Definitely read the Oz books with your kids! They are full of creativity, wonder and whimsey. My son (8 at the time) and I loved reading the first two books together. I hope to go back and read the rest. These are all bad arguments for not reading them, in my opinion. Don’t read the Wicked books-in all seriousness I can’t say, because I haven’t read them and can’t imagine wanting to-but I assume because the premise annoys me being this “there’s no real heroes and villains just people trying to chase their dreams” idea that is everywhere now. It might be good, I just don’t find anything appealing about the book, the musical, or the movie that’s spun off of it. (Glad to be convinced wrong, though, if someone can reach my stubborn disinterest). But yeah, the L Frank Baum books though, totally read them and see for yourself! They are fantastic.
What is missing in this argument is a lot of the TONE of the books--Baum's books are all about whimsy, even when they deal with more mature themes. Kids are smart. They don't hear the Tin Woodsman's backstory and think of it in the horror movie/gory way you seem to read it as (which I found fascinating as a five year old--by age 7 I was a member of the pretty adult International Wizard of Oz club--my parents thankfully supported all of this.) As others have said, look at any fairy tale (even a lot of the sanitized Disney versions...) If you are guarding your children from the original Oz books then I can honestly not imagine what you are allowing them to read or watch (including the movie of Wicked, quite frankly.) (I will say at that age, Return to Oz came out and my parents DID decide it was too dark and creepy for me, despite my love for all of the Oz books. I was incensed that they let my 12 year old brother, who was not even an Oz fan, watch it. But my parents were right. Return to Oz, which is VERY different in tone than the Baum books, would have been too much for me as a kid--electro shock therapy??)
I didn’t know there were mini series. I read wicked and the wizard of oz but not these. I was 14. I loved them. Also fyi it’s only the newer stories that are child friendly, it’s only recent the concept of a gentle childhood. I love Halloween for me it’s a day of acceptance. I am artsy and autistic and I dress how I feel and got bullied for it and Halloween was the one day I could dress as freaky as I wanted and no one could say anything. And I’m not talking slutty I’m talking artsy. Plus candy. 7:05 not true actually, in medieval Christian fairytales like King Arthur for example Morgana wasn’t originally evil, that evolved with the times, and was used later on as a metaphor for pagan religion and Arthur as Christianity. And then in ancient times there was good and bad witches because back then people believed magic was like a force of nature like gravity, neither good nor evil but was depended upon by those that wielded it. It’s more of a modern trope of witches always being bad. Just so you know, the Nazis stole the swastika symbol from the Hindus, they took a symbol that was originally for peace and ruined it, much like the neo Nazis steal from the Vikings. (I’m a nerd ) 9:31 they turned her slippers red for the movie so they would sparkle more and show up better. That could also be the butterfly effect tho.
Good video, and I 100% agree that every parent should be aware of and guiding their children's reading. However i was greatly ammused that your complaints about the book are things i enjoy and what i think makes them good kids books. Classic childrens stories including original fairytale (which i think more people should go back to reading) were designed to teach children lessons. Oz introduces concepts in a silly way and opens opportunity for discussion, because of the way it is written limbs being chopped off is made obviously bad but not gruesome (as an asside you would have hated the princess's heads in Ozma so good choice not reading it). My parents were on the stricter side as Christians but we actually did a whole season of working something like 8 of the original books into our homeschool leasons one year. I am curious: as a christian mother did you censor and "sanatize" Bible stories for your kids in elementary? Pharaoh ordering the babies to be tossed in the Nile, or David killing Goliath not with the stone (as many mistakenly teach) but by cutting off his head with his own sword, are hardly non-grusome stories but it is important to teach them correctly and not teach parodies that have to be unlearned later. Or what about the foundation of our faith the crucifixion itself? Would you not tell your kindergartner or 2nd grader that Jesus had a crown of super long thorns shoved on his head and was nailed to the cross where he hung till he died, or that it was the weight of sin from all time that killed him, not the crucification itself? I ask because i am genuinely curious why it would be ok to teach the Bible (i didnt even mention Lot's daughters), but not ok to read a silly book that has similar (and honestly less "grusome" or concerning) content?
Let me explain the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible. One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it. The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
I'm glad you're talking about this!! I'd add that it's important to screen what authors you allow in your home as a whole. There's a series of books on anatomy (hint: that word is in the titles) that is incredibly popular with homeschool families written by someone who has no problem with adults doing certain things to children...if you catch my drift...every time I try to call it or the author out by name, or even if I try to do it creatively, my words go P00F. Gee, I must be onto something there :-/
I appreciate that you are talking about these themes. Oftentimes we overlook them because it is a well known or well liked work and we need to screen what our children consume, regardless of popularity/notoriety. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Harry Potter series? I apologize if you've already mentioned them somewhere else.
So glad you shared this. Thank you so much! I've seen this on Christian book lists but never felt it would be a good book to read, even without reading it.
Thank you! I don’t normally push the movie on my kids bc of the good witch bad witch part. Now I definitely will steer clear based on the theosophy part. I read his wiki and yes it all makes sense!
I don't understand why children our taught to be afraid of witches, as opposed to the Christian tyrants who burned and hanged the witches. I have some thoughts of the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible. One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it. The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
I can understand your reasoning, and I might have come to similar conclusions in time. My daughter read the Wizard Of Oz last year because it was suggested, and because I had read it as a child and enjoyed the absurdity of it all. I didn't find it nearly as morbid as many of the fairy tales that our curriculum suggested. Even a small child knows that the Tin Man's origin story is ludicrous. Of course things go over your head as a child, but even back then I interpreted the events as an allegory that God has provided them everything they needed, but they had to learn to see that for themselves. Other idols, like the Wizard, will let you down, and their promises are empty. I think it comes down to the fact that there is always some spiritual truth in art, but not always what the artist intended. If your worldview is sound and based in Scripture, you can find the good in many things, but some aren't worth the effort, and this might be one of those things for some people.
I have a different perspective on the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible. One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it. The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
I'm sure parents question the content of the wizard of oz when it was first published. I can't imagine they would be OK with cutting off body parts even a hundred or so years ago.
That was pretty standard for fairy tales like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, the Little Mermaid, etc. LF Baum wrote Oz to be light and clean, avoiding the grim violence of those earlier tales.
I agree-we need to pay close attention to what our kids are reading. I’ve made a few mistakes with some of the books I let my kids read, but I make sure to filter them the best I can. God bless you!"
WOW! I had no idea because I've not read the books, so thank you for the info! My boys could care kess about the movie Wicked, but I wouldn't go see it anyway!
We aren't going to see the movie OR read the books because it isn't anything we are interested in. But it's weird timing to see this because I stayed up late watching a lonnnnng video about how wildly messed up the Oz and Wicked stories are.
Thank you for your overview! I never liked the movie, so I didn't think I'd read the books, but I Def won't now with my kids! Wicked sounds super evil, so i Won't be watching that either!
Thank you for having these videos! I’ve already decided that books that have nothing to do with glorifying Jesus won’t be brought in my house unless I pre read it and they are old enough to have a solid Biblical worldview to challenge the false beliefs as a family.
I don't understand why children should be afraid of witches, as opposed to being afraid of the Christian tyrants who burned and hanged the witches. I find Christianity quite repugnant.
I'm so glad I'm not the only one! Baum also joined the Theosophical Society and believed in all sorts of things we should not be dabbling in. Same with the Secret Garden. Burnett was into Theosophy and I think that's what must have influenced that creepy scene where they summon the uncle to come back and they're doing a ritual around a camp fire. Gave me the creeps as a child despite generally enjoying the film
In my opinion, humanity should not be dabbling in Christianity. The God of the bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can’t tolerate criticism. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings and conflict with the values of kindness and reason. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.
You seem to be labouring under the impression that all children's fiction should be sweetness and light, with nothing that could stir even the most naive reader. When I was a child, I loved thrilling and edgy stories, and hated saccharine preachy crap. Let me explain the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible. One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it. The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
I actually agree that movie Glinda was a villain, but not because "all witches are bad." (I happen to be a Druidic Pagan myself.) It's because of the underlying plot, and how she used Dorothy to eliminate all her political competition.
As others have said, fairy tales in general can be quite gruesome. In the original Cinderella tale, for example, the wicked step sisters decide to make glass slippers of their own to take to the ball, but the slippers weren't the right fit so they shatter on the dance floor - the wicked step sisters then run out of the ball stepping in glass shards until crows come out and pluck their eyes out. One of the Aesops fables includes a dog drowning to death because he wanted to chase a bone he saw in his reflection. The Juniper Tree in Grimm's Fairy Tales is about a man killing his son on accident and burying him under a tree without telling anyone, only for a robin to come and mock him relentlessly threatening to expose him as a murderer (he attempts to kill the Robin and IIRC gets strangled by the tree or something). I really could go on and on.
Another important point is that L Frank Baum was a big fan of Lewis G Caroll and had the same philosophy when writing Wizard of Oz as Lewis G Caroll did when writing Alice In Wonderland - which is that entertainment should be just that, entertainment. Messaging is all fine and good but at the time (post-Civil War, pre-World War era) most literature, especially fairy tales of the time, were so filled with "The Message (TM)" that it made for very boring and preachy stories that felt almost insulting. So both stories were intentionally written to have no deeper themes. People ascribed meanings and themes to them later on (hippies famously argue Alice In Wonderland is about a drug trip for example), but their only purpose as stories is to be fun to read. Nothing more, nothing less.
Definitely read the Oz books with your kids! They are full of creativity, wonder and whimsey. My son (8 at the time) and I loved reading the first two books together. I hope to go back and read the rest. These are all bad arguments for not reading them, in my opinion.
Don’t read the Wicked books-in all seriousness I can’t say, because I haven’t read them and can’t imagine wanting to-but I assume because the premise annoys me being this “there’s no real heroes and villains just people trying to chase their dreams” idea that is everywhere now. It might be good, I just don’t find anything appealing about the book, the musical, or the movie that’s spun off of it. (Glad to be convinced wrong, though, if someone can reach my stubborn disinterest). But yeah, the L Frank Baum books though, totally read them and see for yourself! They are fantastic.
What is missing in this argument is a lot of the TONE of the books--Baum's books are all about whimsy, even when they deal with more mature themes. Kids are smart. They don't hear the Tin Woodsman's backstory and think of it in the horror movie/gory way you seem to read it as (which I found fascinating as a five year old--by age 7 I was a member of the pretty adult International Wizard of Oz club--my parents thankfully supported all of this.) As others have said, look at any fairy tale (even a lot of the sanitized Disney versions...) If you are guarding your children from the original Oz books then I can honestly not imagine what you are allowing them to read or watch (including the movie of Wicked, quite frankly.)
(I will say at that age, Return to Oz came out and my parents DID decide it was too dark and creepy for me, despite my love for all of the Oz books. I was incensed that they let my 12 year old brother, who was not even an Oz fan, watch it. But my parents were right. Return to Oz, which is VERY different in tone than the Baum books, would have been too much for me as a kid--electro shock therapy??)
I didn’t know there were mini series. I read wicked and the wizard of oz but not these. I was 14. I loved them. Also fyi it’s only the newer stories that are child friendly, it’s only recent the concept of a gentle childhood. I love Halloween for me it’s a day of acceptance. I am artsy and autistic and I dress how I feel and got bullied for it and Halloween was the one day I could dress as freaky as I wanted and no one could say anything. And I’m not talking slutty I’m talking artsy. Plus candy. 7:05 not true actually, in medieval Christian fairytales like King Arthur for example Morgana wasn’t originally evil, that evolved with the times, and was used later on as a metaphor for pagan religion and Arthur as Christianity. And then in ancient times there was good and bad witches because back then people believed magic was like a force of nature like gravity, neither good nor evil but was depended upon by those that wielded it. It’s more of a modern trope of witches always being bad. Just so you know, the Nazis stole the swastika symbol from the Hindus, they took a symbol that was originally for peace and ruined it, much like the neo Nazis steal from the Vikings. (I’m a nerd ) 9:31 they turned her slippers red for the movie so they would sparkle more and show up better. That could also be the butterfly effect tho.
Good video, and I 100% agree that every parent should be aware of and guiding their children's reading. However i was greatly ammused that your complaints about the book are things i enjoy and what i think makes them good kids books. Classic childrens stories including original fairytale (which i think more people should go back to reading) were designed to teach children lessons. Oz introduces concepts in a silly way and opens opportunity for discussion, because of the way it is written limbs being chopped off is made obviously bad but not gruesome (as an asside you would have hated the princess's heads in Ozma so good choice not reading it).
My parents were on the stricter side as Christians but we actually did a whole season of working something like 8 of the original books into our homeschool leasons one year.
I am curious: as a christian mother did you censor and "sanatize" Bible stories for your kids in elementary? Pharaoh ordering the babies to be tossed in the Nile, or David killing Goliath not with the stone (as many mistakenly teach) but by cutting off his head with his own sword, are hardly non-grusome stories but it is important to teach them correctly and not teach parodies that have to be unlearned later. Or what about the foundation of our faith the crucifixion itself? Would you not tell your kindergartner or 2nd grader that Jesus had a crown of super long thorns shoved on his head and was nailed to the cross where he hung till he died, or that it was the weight of sin from all time that killed him, not the crucification itself?
I ask because i am genuinely curious why it would be ok to teach the Bible (i didnt even mention Lot's daughters), but not ok to read a silly book that has similar (and honestly less "grusome" or concerning) content?
WELL SAID.
Let me explain the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible.
One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it.
The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
I'm glad you're talking about this!!
I'd add that it's important to screen what authors you allow in your home as a whole. There's a series of books on anatomy (hint: that word is in the titles) that is incredibly popular with homeschool families written by someone who has no problem with adults doing certain things to children...if you catch my drift...every time I try to call it or the author out by name, or even if I try to do it creatively, my words go P00F. Gee, I must be onto something there :-/
How do I not know about this??!? Can message me?
I appreciate that you are talking about these themes. Oftentimes we overlook them because it is a well known or well liked work and we need to screen what our children consume, regardless of popularity/notoriety. Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the Harry Potter series? I apologize if you've already mentioned them somewhere else.
So glad you shared this. Thank you so much! I've seen this on Christian book lists but never felt it would be a good book to read, even without reading it.
Don't read fairy tales or nursery rhymes....they all have deep rooted horror.
Totally agree!! I cannot understand why all these “Classics” are thought of as great. So many are just terrible!!!
What about hey diddle diddle and the farmer in the Dell that is not filled with horror
@@emilymichalski9195 agree, should say not every rhyme, but so very many stories 😢
English fairy tales😮
I loved the play and the movie of Wicked and can't wait for it to stream on prime video
Thank you! I don’t normally push the movie on my kids bc of the good witch bad witch part. Now I definitely will steer clear based on the theosophy part. I read his wiki and yes it all makes sense!
Yes! It’s so crazy!
I don't understand why children our taught to be afraid of witches, as opposed to the Christian tyrants who burned and hanged the witches.
I have some thoughts of the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible.
One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it.
The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
Great info as always. Thanks for sharing! Shalom
Amazing job! Thanks for exposing the truth. Great explanation on the occult inspiration on this book. I appreciate your bravery.
I can understand your reasoning, and I might have come to similar conclusions in time. My daughter read the Wizard Of Oz last year because it was suggested, and because I had read it as a child and enjoyed the absurdity of it all. I didn't find it nearly as morbid as many of the fairy tales that our curriculum suggested. Even a small child knows that the Tin Man's origin story is ludicrous. Of course things go over your head as a child, but even back then I interpreted the events as an allegory that God has provided them everything they needed, but they had to learn to see that for themselves. Other idols, like the Wizard, will let you down, and their promises are empty. I think it comes down to the fact that there is always some spiritual truth in art, but not always what the artist intended. If your worldview is sound and based in Scripture, you can find the good in many things, but some aren't worth the effort, and this might be one of those things for some people.
I have a different perspective on the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible.
One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it.
The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.
Leilani that is so not true about Wicked movie boq never cut his arms off Elphiba shrunk his heart from a spell and he became the tinman
I'm sure parents question the content of the wizard of oz when it was first published. I can't imagine they would be OK with cutting off body parts even a hundred or so years ago.
That was pretty standard for fairy tales like Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, the Little Mermaid, etc. LF Baum wrote Oz to be light and clean, avoiding the grim violence of those earlier tales.
I agree-we need to pay close attention to what our kids are reading. I’ve made a few mistakes with some of the books I let my kids read, but I make sure to filter them the best I can. God bless you!"
How do you handle the gory parts in the Bible?
WOW! I had no idea because I've not read the books, so thank you for the info! My boys could care kess about the movie Wicked, but I wouldn't go see it anyway!
We aren't going to see the movie OR read the books because it isn't anything we are interested in. But it's weird timing to see this because I stayed up late watching a lonnnnng video about how wildly messed up the Oz and Wicked stories are.
As opposed to the messed up cal in the Bible?
Thank you so much for sharing! We will not include this book for our literature.
Do you limit your reading to sweetness and light?
Thank you for your overview! I never liked the movie, so I didn't think I'd read the books, but I Def won't now with my kids! Wicked sounds super evil, so i Won't be watching that either!
Thank you for having these videos! I’ve already decided that books that have nothing to do with glorifying Jesus won’t be brought in my house unless I pre read it and they are old enough to have a solid Biblical worldview to challenge the false beliefs as a family.
I don't understand why children should be afraid of witches, as opposed to being afraid of the Christian tyrants who burned and hanged the witches.
I find Christianity quite repugnant.
Definitely not seeing wicked and not reading oz..... blah
I'm so glad I'm not the only one! Baum also joined the Theosophical Society and believed in all sorts of things we should not be dabbling in. Same with the Secret Garden. Burnett was into Theosophy and I think that's what must have influenced that creepy scene where they summon the uncle to come back and they're doing a ritual around a camp fire. Gave me the creeps as a child despite generally enjoying the film
In my opinion, humanity should not be dabbling in Christianity. The God of the bible, a hateful, arrogant, sexist, cruel being who can’t tolerate criticism. The concepts of original sin, depravity, substitutionary forgiveness, intolerance, eternal punishment, and humble worship are all beneath the dignity of intelligent human beings and conflict with the values of kindness and reason. They are barbaric ideas for primitive cultures cowering in fear and ignorance.
Yes!!!
You seem to be labouring under the impression that all children's fiction should be sweetness and light, with nothing that could stir even the most naive reader.
When I was a child, I loved thrilling and edgy stories, and hated saccharine preachy crap.
Let me explain the difference between The Wizard of Oz and the Bible.
One is an absurd, poorly written fantasy, with gruesome, graphic gore, that can easily frighten children, yet people read it to children who get psychologically scarred from it.
The other involves a Scarecrow and a Tinman.