THINGS I WISH I KNEW AS A BEGINNER USING EPOXY FOR FIBERGLASS BOAT REPAIRS!
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ย. 2022
- I'm all about learning things through trial and error as I believe that's really the best way to learn. Not only do you learn the how, but WHY things are done the way they're done (gives a much deeper understanding of the overall process). That said, there are some key things that had I known when first starting off would have made life a lot less frustrating lol ;-)
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By far the most important video on TH-cam for resin info
You are a God.
I have been able to do my projects because of what you openly share. Thank you, greatly appreciated.
I worked for a time in a shop making certified aircraft parts. We mixed all epoxy by weight. One can mix by weight or volume - but we have to use the correct amounts. We had a 'cheat sheet' next to the mixing stations with resin and hardener weights. Put cup on scale and tare to zero. Add resin. Tare to zero. Add hardener. Mix. Method two: tare empty cup. Add resin. Add hardener to total. Mix. (Yes - build the cheat sheet to show resin and total.) Regardless - pick a method and stick with it to reduce error.
Yeup when l built an airplane, mine was an done by weight, except when l used a sticky stuff ratio pump 🎯👍
Exactly! I did a bit of Rutan-style building as well and loved the dispenser in the styrofoam box with the light bulb warmer! I think the boat world can learn a lot from 1980's era airplane builders. I'm surprised there hasn't been more info exchange, frankly. Fly safe! Andy
thats actually a grand idea! mind if i shamelessly steal it?
West Systems is by weight or volume now. It works better by weight it becomes water resistant faster and you get less "gassing out" air pockets in the finish as well as a slighly better cure time in cold conditions. The only downside to the more potent weight mixture is it has slightly more amine blush as a result. Not a big issue it still needs wiped down of amine blush anyway. I've never had one problem with West Systems in 2 decades and hundreds of projects and fixes its never once failed on me. Not fanboying I'm just stating facts that most already know.. its the best.
Here in the UK it was the best marine guys and the guys who made Aeroplanes that eventually ended up making boats after the world wars, hence the reason boats from the 50s through to the very early 80s are very well made and survive to this day. For instance my smallest boat is a Mayland 500 Fisher it's 15ft8" to be exact and was a heavily reinforced and float tanked version of a Mayland 14ft sold as a River boat in the 70s. It was made In 1974 and sold in 1978 with an evinrude 25hp on the 35hp max rated transom. Semi displacement design directly scaled down from a Vospa Motor Torpedo boat from WW2 its an absolute masterpiece of a little fishing boat has a full proper epoxy made outer hull, float tanks and deck sole. The only poly made thing on the boat is the cuddy everything else is epoxy which in itself is rare. Mayland marine made it they were the best at smaller River and Estuary boats and the top craftsmen that worked in there were mainly the ex-aircraft guys and the older guys who actually made the Vospa Torpedo boat that my little Mayland is designed off. I'm not joking here for its size it's an absolute tank I've took it from here (Scotland at Greenock Docks) to the Faroe Islands as a test, i was next to my uncles larger Ocean rated Princess that cost over a quarter mill and it done it next to it no sweat. Its not even 16ft and is classed as an estuary fishing boat and it done the North Sea in mid November with me, a diesel exchange heater and the Cape over it and it done it for fun 🤣
Only thing I done to it before the journey was refit the window rubbers, bought the RNli kit on ebay that allowed the older JonnyRude 25-35s to get away with a short term submerge and not cut out or hydro lock and took a spare yam 8hp converted to a 10hp. I averaged 3.6knot the boat did 7-9knot mostly and up to 16knot on flatter parts for a short time. The worst bits I was at just under 1knot over the space of an hour at one point. Cuddy had a tiny bilge pump it's near watertight doesn't need one but the outside deck had Two 1500gph bilge pumps and two 3" scupper socks on testing it could get rid of a half ton of water at 3knot within 10secs. The volume of water the rear outer deck can hold with the boat out the water acting as a bath tub is 2.4ton which I doubled up as an integrity test at the time. You cannot sink this boat it's impossible it's like an empty bottle of Coke in the sea its shannon class it self rights and just does not care about what angle you stuff it or how big a wave is it can take way way more than I can I would tap out long before this little Mayland boat would so would anyone I know of. I'm an ex paratrooper so no squib.
I'm sure you get this from time to time but it's your stuff that helped inspire me to build a boat myself. I doing my best to document it as I go so I can hopefully help the next guy (or gal) so thanks for saving me so much heartache.
Thank you, Andy! This is great information about epoxy resins. I know nothing about nothing and you may have saved me from making timely and costly mistakes.
Really appreciate the tip about the 2-1 being thinner and easier for wetting out.
To avoid having epoxy go off in a cup, pour the epoxy out of the mixing cup into a metal paint tray and use a Glasscoater roller cover on a 4 inch frame to apply the resin to the surface. For large flat areas, use a wider roller cover. The metal tray will disperse the exotherm and prevent premature gelling. You will also get a much faster and denser laminate. Then to get the last of the air out, use your metal roller. This is the same way I have been fiberglassing with polyester for 40 years, works the same with epoxy. Don't use a paint brush for laminating except in tight spots where the roller won't go.
Thanks for another great video Andy, really happy to have your weekly videos!
I just want to thank u for all the videos. U made this job on my boat a hole lot easier because I knew nothing about working with glass. Keep up the wonderful work u do for us
The years I spent in the boneyard working on sailboats (including my own), I found that if I was ignorant about something, I would just ask around (and try my hardest not to get roped into an all day convo.), this was before Google/TH-cam was a thing. Doing that, I learned to layup FRP/Vacuum bagging/gelcoat blah blah blah from a gentleman that laid up shells for NASCARs. It was like being at FRP tech! This is really a great channel! I wish I had had access to something like this when I was refitting my last Rawson 30 (which by the way had a 3/4 -- 1" thick brilliantly hand laid hull....bulletproof). In fact, she's down on the Sea of Cortez being sailed by a young couple that enjoys her stability.
Always enjoy your knowledgeable and helpful content Andy. Love your channel.
I'm getting ready to do my very first fiberglass repair on my 1964 Oday Mariner. Replacing rot wood in the transom. Your videos have really helped me get prepared for the job! Thank you! Love your channel! ⛵🤙
New to fiberglass work, boat repairs. Restored my first boat, well started the restoration 3 years ago and finished it last year, but watched alot of your content to learn things over the years. Starting a new project and looking up things and again I find your content. Most of the things you mentioned I got to learn on my own but learned about the fiberglass matt and the styrene today... thats great to know! Thanks for all your videos. Keep up the great content!
it's simply good to watch and learn from you. Thank you..
I’m swapping from corvettes to boats you’re very good on explaining the reductions your video will be mandatory for my helpers thanks 🙏
Such a useful summary of novice mistakes! I'm a beginner fiberglasser and have hit 4 out of your 5 snags, and developed a healthy dislike for epoxy because I didn't know how to avoid these pitfalls. I might be able to tackle the Sunfish next summer with your advice so thanks so much!
Subbed!
Thank you. Very useful as I'm going to build my 1st boat, soonish.
It's first a (1:10, i.e. 3 ft) model of the one-off full-size boat, because mistakes are less expensive on small builds - and I'm newbie into boat building.
Thanks for sharing some of the lessons you learned the hard way.
Andy, thanks for the tips in this video. Have you made a video on making your own backing plates for thru-hulls/seacocks? I have this coming up this Spring and would like your advice on materials/methods.
I learn from you. Right now I am remodeling my dash on my 1980 thompson
Another great video you and NZ Fiberglass in Auckland are helping me rebuild my Campion.
Campion themselves are useless never returned even one enquiry.
Great information for this rookie...thank you very much!!!
I watch this every year.!!!
I've been binging your channel for a while now. Learned alot. About to use it to refit an etchells 22. I've seen your vid on stringers but how would I add some stiffener/ half round runners 1 inch wide to a boat to stiffen up an area in the boat that has no support?
Great stuff, Andy. 👏
Excellent informationally video
Very helpful, thanks.
Id love to see you build a cedar strip canoe. Most videos i have seen people use west system, would total boat products be a good choice for a cedar strip canoe? thanks
Awesome tips!
Thanks to youtube and especially your channel, I pretty much knew all of these already! 😅😘
Hi Andy, thanks for posting this clip, I learned something so bonus. Question; what ratio epoxy resin would you recommend when repairing chips out of a gel coat?
Great content
Some of those tips are great they will help me in the future. You should right a book on how to.
I had the same problem bending the Bondo brand fiberglass mat around corners and edges using epoxy resin.
The instructions recommend using Bondo Fiberglass Resin (i.e. polyester)
Great advice
An excellent video that is quite pertinent for my current channel haha!
I so hear you on the volume vs weight part - and my advice to anyone out there is to read the instructions. Depending on the supplier you go with, it can differ. Sometimes it is mixed by weight, sometimes by volume.
Also, (and I know this is going to sound really obvious): Make sure you have a level surface when measuring. If you are unsure, whether your surface is somewhat level, and you do not have a bubble level indicator with you, there are apps around for Android and for iOS. They utilize the gyroscope inside your smartphone, which is pretty darn accurate (these days)
It’s always frustrating to learn the simple things AFTER you really needed to know them! But there is always plenty of time to do it right the second time!
I’m actually not really scared to tackle a few minor repairs on my hull now.
Any recommendations for a good temporary top coat for until I get someone to do the entire hull?
Wonder if you found using a blowtorch to deal with bubbles in the paint to reduce orange peeling useful?
Someone needs to make a video teaching some of us how to NOT bring home more boats! Lol great video. Been ordering supplies. Doing a vintage race boat restoration. And just got a cheetah jet hull earlier this evening. Most you tubers teaching this stuff seem like backyard mechanics. Which is ok for some. But I appreciate the help from someone you can tell has done this for years. Thank you.
I have used only West Systems Epoxy and projects on my airplane. My hangar is not temperature controlled so my only means of dealing with seasonal weather change is selection of Fast, Slow or Extra Slow hardeners. When temperatures are below 65~70, this 5:1 epoxy is definitely slow to wet out. But I’m confident in West System’s’ structural strength compared to other resins and in it’s excellent bond strength to almost any material. Do Total Boat 2:1 epoxies offer the same excellent mechanical properties I’m used to, while wetting glass and CF fabrics more quickly/easily? A brand comparison video would be of great help. Thank you.
Every lesson I’ve learned, I’ve learned the hard way, at least twice.
West System 105/ 205-206 are 5-1 by weight and volume. Total Boat resins and fairing compounds are different from West System in this respect. If you are weighing Total Boat epoxy make sure to check with a Tech before you start. Recently the formulation for TotalFair was changed and although it was still 1 to 1 by volume, the ratio by weight changed and even some of the tech staff were not aware.
I’m glad you shared your insight into early mistakes, especially CSM and epoxy. I have been a subscriber for many years and have learned many things from watching your channel. You are a valuable resource for technique as well as material on the web.
I have mixed epoxy by weight and volume. I use 105 with 205 and 206 West system at 5 to 1 by weight or volume. 207 and 209 are not the same. Mixing by volume or weight, according to Gougeon Bros, is acceptable. The hardener can has the ratio for weight and once known it is easy to mix as well, but they make it easy to mix with the pumps by volume. I don’t prefer one method over another except when. mixing tiny amounts of epoxy for small repairs. I can mix up 6 grams of 105/206 with ease rather than throwing away much more waste.
Here in the UK powder bound chop strand and proper epoxy is the norm. Its if you are using poly or vinyl that you need to watch what chop you buy. We consider epoxy the only way to go in repairs and poly or vinyl are for when the boat is made. It's the shrinkage that catches us out because of the weather so repairs don't last unless it's proper epoxy and even chop strand we will only use that for certain things on the inner decks, hatches or to get a final sandable finish basically a finish cloth so we don't sand into our roving/biaxial/triaxial etc. We love barrier coats here, we barrier coats our barrier coats just to be sure we barrier coat them twice again.
I just now watched this, and I thought it was a great list and couple things I've just learned recently, like the styrene binder in chopped glass. The "don't mix by weight" comment caught my ear too. I've used System Three with pumps for years but if I don't need a full pump's worth of epoxy I find it much easier to mix by weight than using measuring spoons. As you say, System Three also has ratios for weight and volume. They're not the same and that would be an easy and messy thing to miss. I'm sure this video will help a lot of folks.
First thing I wish I'd known 50 yeqrs ago when I started with boats is to avoid using epoxy and if I had to use it, to use fresh air breathing equipment.
West Systems 105 you can now measure by weight or volume with all of the hardeners. I use Fast Slow and the clear stuff it doesn't matter on any of them the results are the same the only difference will be more amine blush if you use the higher end of the scale for the hardener. For example if you are using the fast hardener it's thicker than the slow hardener but it's only slightly heavier for the same volume and regardless if you mix 18g or 20g into your 100g of 105 it will set up the exact same and if its a wet humid enviroment I'd recommend you use 20g as it becomes more water resistant quicker and the only difference/downside in using the extra 2g by doing it by weight is that you get more Amine blush it will veer into being the full red visible type if you mix exactly by weight. I presume the quicker water resistance and less air pockets when applied by weight is because its on the heavy end of the mixtures acceptable range. I've also found the fast hardener works better here in the UK by weight across the board it dries with less gassing out air pockets.
One thing to note is that the pump dispensers you'd be lucky to get large amounts of it mixed as accurate as by weight. Weight is by far the most reliable way to do it based on that alone. West Sysyems data sheet says it can be mixed by volume or weight but I know its not always said that so just to let everyone know its fine to work either way with the current West Systems stuff👍
Andy, do you have experience in vacuum infusion process on large areas?
Check sailing dauntless channel they did some 55 ft hull parts for wrecked Catamaran
Just posting on this cause it’s most recent, does anyone use Alex seal on their aluminum boats? I can’t find any examples at all and would love to hear more
Andy, I need to put two 3/4 inch Coosa Boards together for a transom on Aluminum boat, and wondering what what would be the cheapest way to hold them together and also give me 3/16 of an inch thicker due to transom needed to be 1.75 inches wide from 1.5 inch Coosa. I was told to add the thickness of almost. 25 Inches in the middle between the two 3/4 in sheets . I can't spend huge money on West Systems products... I need cheapest way to get the thickness I need , and keep it together to slide into the transom slot.. Thanks
Dude, what is that segmented tube on your bandsaw?
I always watch your videos from Japan. your work is great! I have something to tell you. I am restoring an 11 foot mini boat. I want the floor to be flat. Can you tell me how to make a veneer of frp that people can walk on 🙇♂️❓ How many layers of mats and cloths do you need to stack to make a strong frp ❓I don't want to use wood, so I'm worried 🙇♂️
I have a question , recently i sprayed a metal flake two coats of gelcoat clear one last coat with ten porcent coolshot clear coat looks just a lil bit bluish barely noticeble bit i see it you have any advice to avoid that , thank you
Do I need to turn my fiberglass boat over to do repairs on 1ft crack below the water line. Also, do I need to use epoxy resin?
I'm doing a refit for a classic sailboat here in the other side of the Atlantic ocean (Finland) and your channel has been a life saver! Only thing I'm still wondering: How in earth I'm able to clean my boat from all the trillions of fiberglass fibers. Any tricks to that? :D
Is west system the only epoxy that you can gelcoat over
Thanks for the information Andy.
We have it easy as we have an Andy to tell us all how it's done 😂👌
Have you done a video explaining how these mixing cups work? I assume it's simple but it seems so confusing to me...
With 40 years of experience with epoxy, I find it much easier, especially with small batches, to use weight. Weights, measured with a decent scale, digital or mechanical, are much more accurately reproducible than trying to get the meniscus of the liquid to line up to markings on a measuring cup. Fractions of a gram are easily and reliably measured, much more so than volumetric measurements of thick, viscous liquids. Weigh a few samples of liquids measured by volume to see the variation.
I dread asking what to many will be a dumb question. Painting the picture for you is gonna be the hard part. Best boat I ever had needs its transom replaced. It's roughly 9 inches by 50 inches and 1-1/4 inch thick. The boat is an aluminum 12 footer, and the rotted transom mat'l is/was wood. Here's the rub. The transom is supported by the rear of the rear bench seat. Sheet aluminum, the same gauge and height as the back of the bench cross member, is the supporting mat'l. This arrangement created two small boxes, one on either side of the hull. One side for the battery, and one side for various and sundry items. This leaves a space right in front of the outboard and the back side of the bench seat. All the aluminum is welded, except where these two (gussets?) join the transom itself. There's a 90 degree bend at that nexus on both, that have bolt holes. I can demo the rotted wood without disturbing all this welded aluminum, but putting a new one in is a whole new ballgame. I'm narrowed down to just two options. One is Fiberglas. Here's my plan. I have a tall hoist and I think I can raise the boat to near vertical, bow up, to a point where my work area can be perfectly leveled. The top of the transom is aluminum, folded over, where the top of the wood transom nestles in it's normal position. So that forms, with the sides of the hull, three sides of a form, like you might pour concrete into. I believe I can fabricate the missing fourth side of the form with some kind of mat'l compatible with the program, that will be easy to remove after all is said and done. Here ends the picture. In this near vertical position, could I lay layer after layer of Fiberglas cloth and resin, to the same thickness as the wood, and when hardened, would it be strong enough? Thanks in advance if you elect to reply.
any videos on epoxy vs polyester?
This is how we learned, in the time before the internet. 😁
thanks
Excellent video. A couple simple notes: There are some epoxies (not at all uncommon in the US) that use styrene and will dissolve the styrene CSM binder.
Second, it really bothers me that you were not provided a raise when you moved into composites. Experienced or not. Just the side-effects of working in composites alone, are worth more money. Here in South Florida you would make a very lucrative hourly rate and you'd never have to look for work.
Thanks for the tips! For the volume vs weight I don't understand how it would make a difference for the ratio though.
Let's say 1 unit is 100ml at 50g. If you do a 5:1 it's 500ml to 100ml. But that's the same as 250g to 50g which is also 5:1.
What am I missing?
Density of the liquid is what you're missing. You're assuming the liquid has the density of water - 1g/mL, which I'm not sure is true about resin or hardener
It was great meeting you in Ft Lauderdale Boat show. I saw you have information on fiberglass work on a download for $20.00. now I can't find it. can you send me a link please.
Can table top epoxy be use for fiberglass projects? It's so much cheaper
I rather learn by your mistakes than mine! Thanks!
Would love to see some actual boat work someday...
How about “ gluing it” first. For example, one thin layer of epoxy on the surface, then once gone off, stick the matt on top, then relaminate?
Limited experience here, other than rebuilding my minnie winnie’s cab over and winnebago’s WONDERFUL job, I only use west systems for “small “ stuff and only measure by weight in grams, usually 25 gm resin to 5 gm hardener And i have had no problem. Is it possible at these very small quantities it makes no difference or am i setting myself for failure in future big layups. ?? for now i’ll continue…………….
If you were putting fiberglass over 3/4 coosa board for a floor on a 20’ center console. How many layers of fiberglass would you apply? Just a general answer I know there’s lots of variables.
Any answer for this? Need to build up thickness for transom using Coosa Board, so wondering?
👍!!!
thanks now i know why i couldnt get the glass to make a curve....tony
11:20 squirrel!
Perhaps increase the surface area of the epoxy by pouring it into a tray to keep it thin. It will keep the heat down. Set time is significantly accelerated by curing heat build up. Quick setting happens in a pot or cup if there is significant depth.
West Sysyems too you need to not heat cycle the epoxy, bringing it into warmer or colder environments after mixing causes it to start blobbing and you end up pushing a big lump of glue about the cup to get it to dissolve again. West Systems data sheet tell you to stabilise the enviroment. You want the cans left next to the project you are doing so everything is the same temp, then you mix it at that same temp and as you said once the mixing is done I pour large batches into the cheapo paint roller trays then apply directly from the trays or pour them back into a fresh bucket/cup to mix in fillers etc. I've put epoxy in the freezer to stop it setting and it came out nice, the problem was when I applied it to my warm panel it instantly cured and you could crack the epoxy off the next day it was brittle. I've heated cups quickly next to a heater to get rid of bubbles in the straight 105 pre-hardener but you need to let it coop back down to the project temp before putting the hardener in.
a 10% variation **in excess** of a hardening component (2g on top of 18g for a total of 100g) would be enough for the stuff not to set ? sounds like there might have been something else with this very first batch...
I saw a TH-cam video yesterday by a chemist "Goobertown hobbies" where he mixes epoxies at different ratios. It was eye opening to see failure to set in many of his samples. The next time I mix up epoxy I'm going to be a lot more careful.
👍🏽
You can find some that specify by weight not volume I guess it comes down to reading that part of the instructions I've certainly been tricked a few times when buying different products
Why do you think that us manufacturing does not just make all chop stran good for epoxy? Who manufactures chopstran? Thank you
Have a good holiday
Just sand it when cured little bit at edge
Always annoying when weight ratios are not on container. Volume mixing can be less precise just like in the kitchen. (housewives use cups, chefs use weight!)
Another annoying thing is lack of specs (psi , temp, viscosity etc…) on container leads to improper epoxy use.
2 or 3 feet of snow? So...a Flurry. C'mon now, that's how we roll in Da U.P.!
"Squirrel."
How are people even talking about mixing epoxy? Literally just get West Systems with the pumps. And pump them slow and steady. It’s that simple.
I hate it when a co-worker can’t take a little ribbing. There’s a line, sure.. but I’ve seen people threaten to leave places over nicknames that weren’t offensive in the slightest.
You've been mixing / confusing Resin and Epoxy words...
Get back to the Bertram or I am unsubscribing! I am giving you one more week lol
Epoxy is not suitable for boat repairs unless in the very rare instance of working on an epoxy boat.
Hello Walkertongdee, West Systems says Epoxy is superior for secondary bonding but I've heard your statement many times. What convinced you that PER or VER is a better solution? I've heard use like for like, repair on substrate should match? What convinced you? Thanks for your input.
Incorrect. Epoxy is superior to polyester for repairing polyester boats! Bonding to fully cured polyester is a mechanical bond and epoxy mechanical bonds are stronger than polyester. The only reason to use polyester for repairs is that it is much cheaper so if strength and water imperviousness is not an issue then by all means us polyester.
Why? It’s worked for me.
West Systems:
Mix ratio by volume ..........................................................5 parts resin : 1 part hardener
by weight............................................................................5.36 : 1
Acceptable ratio range by weight ................................... 4.84 : 1 to 6.19 :1 www.westsystem.com/wp-content/uploads/105-206-Epoxy-Resin-1.pdf