ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 ก.ย. 2024
- In this highlight from Dojo Talks, the Dojo (GM Jesse Kraai, IM David Pruess, IM Kostya Kavutskiy) discuss the potential pros and cons of using Chessable for overall chess improvement.
Watch the full discussion here: • Dojo Talks: Zoomer Che...
Follow ChessDojo here:
Twitch: / chessdojolive
Discord: / discord
Twitter: / chess_dojo
Instagram: / chess_dojo
Patreon: / chessdojo
Podcast: chessdojotalks...
6:40 This whole section is so relevant to so many things not even just chess. I'm a Mathematician by study and trade, and one of the most important things we learn is learning how to create proofs and derive formulas for things you already know. Going into an exam you could try to just memorise 200 formulas and standard proofs and that sort of thing could serve you decently well. But if you understand the why, as we call it the "first principles", then you can come up with any formula you require just because you understand what you need and how it all interacts.
The things I truly understand are the ones I'll never forget, not because I did them so much (although that helps), but moreso because any parts I forget I can essentially reinvent just by thinking about it. Chess is much the same in that if you study the fundamentals and get really good at calculation and understanding why a move in an opening is good, you don't need to memorise 20 variations. You just need to remember a couple main ones, and the rest should come naturally from thinking about the position.
I've been using Chessable for close to a year now.
Kostya really hit the nail on the head in that the value you'll be getting from Chessable really depends on how you use it.
My openings are much better than they ever were. I know so many opening variations now and it's become unlikely for me to get into trouble early in the game. However. It also taught me some bad habits that I'm now trying to get rid of. I needed to really bring back my inner dialogue when playing chess because with Chessable I found myself being trained to move without thinking.
You'll think initially when learning content but after that it becomes pure memory recollection.
These days, I try and think about every position. Both during initial learning and through the spaced repetition learning. The inner dialogue is so important and I feel that Chessable can really hurt it if you are using it wrong.
Surely you learn the comments and think about continuations and plans?
@@gavasiarobinssson5108 I wasn't thinking about the continuations or plans at all during the repetition training which is where I went wrong. I was just going through the motions.
@@SolitudeSA There are benefits goin through motions but for me, I wouldnt be able to memorize more than three variations without knowing more about them. Why did we move this piece now, what did we open/close etc. If I dont have that I would be confused
Yep - I've been using it for 1.5 years too and have decided to stop drilling the openings as it pretty much promotes you to not think which is the opposite of what we should be doing in chess
What I like about the spaced repetition, is that the more I drill those opening lines I will start questioning them. "What if my opponent play this other move?" Which, step-by-step, gets me to understand the position better.
Is David not getting annoyed by that beam of light??
He’s pinned by the light. Can’t move.
It's sunlight, being an animal on Earth, its ok.
Chessable has the huge practical advantage of saving your place in every chapter of every course. The "container" that Kostya mentions is another practical advantage - making regular study so much easier, even when you have just a few minutes. Last but not least, some of the lecture courses, e.g. Mastering Chess Strategy, are world-class. More expensive than a book, but much less pricey than 1:1 lessons, and available for repeated review.
I did the polgar book reading requirements on Chessable and ended up doing 500 variations from her 4 books. Chessable allows you to repeat those variations so you learn them and get pattern recognition. Instead of buying and trying to read “100 endgames you must know” you get the chance to practice them .. then you repeat them. When you make a mistake you can look at the explanation. It’s well worth it for me. I buy the books but I more often don’t read them
Having played chess for little over 2 years, I have learned a lot from chessable courses that I feel I wouldn’t have in the same amount of time reading books. I’m an avid reader but like others have struggled with chess book and the interface works for me most of the time. I like having easy access to the courses from my phone or iPad that otherwise I might not have with a book that is sitting at home. Also have only worked on a few short and sweet courses for openings so the majority have been courses where the main focus is material other than openings.
Chessable has a setting called "whole variation" where you can play through all the steps that got you to a particular stage. In Jesse's case he made his own course and didn't input all the steps that lead to a given position.
I used this for awhile but I think it has its own trap which is that you are simply memorizing move orders and because you have to make so many more moves to review the same number of variations you just blitz them out as fast as possible. Whereas when you are simply presented with a position you have to assess the position and try to find or remember the move that the position demands. I have a mix of tactics mixed in with openings and since they are reviewed in more or less random order I think it helps look at each position with a fresher perspective and get more out of it.
@@jeremyhuffman101 I would say, as would Chessable authors and creators, that is not the way to do it. They always encourage reading the material that comes with the trainer. It's not just there for kicks and giggles. You can also set the timer to unlimited time. Or just go through the book without using the move trainer.
@@SpyridonTheWonderWkr No idea where you got the idea I wasn't reading the material. I'm talking about how it drills you. The way I use it is what happens by default when you click "review all".
@@jeremyhuffman101 Sorry about that, I misunderstood "I used this for awhile but I think it has its own trap which is that you are simply memorizing move orders and because you have to make so many more moves to review the same number of variations you just blitz them out as fast as possible." as meaning that you were blitzing through them without reading the material as you reviewed them.
@@SpyridonTheWonderWkr Oh I see. Yes I did fall into that habit when I was doing "review whole variation" because I'd have to play the first several moves so many times every day, I'd get into the habit of not thinking about them at all, and often that would carry into the latter parts of the variation as well. So for me it works better to just review the key moves because that is the part that is different; it requires (in my opinion) more understanding and a more thoughtful approach, and then yes I usually do review the text (at least until I've memorized that as well).
For me the problem with Chessable is the price of courses there. It's just too much :/
In ten years a website like this might not even be around, so I hesitate to pay $30 for a book. The physical book is for life. Plus there’s so much focus on memorizing variations which is somewhat questionable for players below expert level. I’ve bought a few courses, but still not convinced it is the best way to study chess.
One thing chessable doesn't handle very well is letting you copy a line from a paid for chessable course to a private repertoire. You have to do it manually using 2 browser windows, and it's more painful than maybe it should be. This is particularly useful when you only want to learn lines based on games you've actually played.
The other risk with spaced repetition in my view is when you have a good tool for memory, there's a tendency to want to treat every problem as a memory problem due to having this great memory tool, which can be problematic in chess imo (it's also problematic in other areas, like 2nd language acquisition which also often uses spaced repetition).
If you look at the individual variations in a given chapter, before starting to study them, then you can just copy and paste them. I have done that before.
Thanks for highlighting this memory reliance risk
I think some of the blueprints of future chess study are present in Chessable. Still, the current implementation of their service is a bit janky and not without significant user experience friction. I think ANY medium requires the student to bring their own sense of personal responsibility and discipline to make the experience productive. I use Chessable every day, but I am still finding my way to best practice and pacing.
I agree with the statement that online platforms (especially Chessable) encourage the "next-next-next" syndrome. I have been trying to force myself to slow down and have returned to setting up key positions on a physical board to invite deeper contemplation.
Also, as someone in the book industry, I wouldn't say the book is dead-- although it is less relevant (or obsolete) in some domains. However, I can see how a generation weaned on interactive chess practice may never fully embrace chess books as the primary medium. It seems the future of chess study will be mechanically assisted, and I think modern trainers such as yourselves can plot the design of the new pedagogy.
Nice discussion. Thanks for sharing.
I don't know whether I'm just tight - but I don't get the prices being charged for the videos. You can buy the book say for $30, and opt for the video too, but at 4-5 times the price of the book
Think about the costs of coaching, usually one wont find coaching from NM or higher for less than 45 USD an hour. 3 hours in and you've already paid the cost of a video. The length of a Chessable video if often over 20 hours or more. In many cases the creator goes into greater detail than the text does, in fact I would say in almost all cases the creator goes into greater detail. It is a massive perk and very helpful.
@@SpyridonTheWonderWkr I guess I'm sceptical that you really get that much more from the video than the book. I will probably try out Polgar or Kramnik's courses at some point and see.
@@kieran6330 I can appreciate the skepticism. Though I certainly encourage the videos if it is financially reasonable for one to do so. I have done courses without videos, and I have done well. Though when I have used the videos, I find that it helps me retain the material better. Think about it like going over lectures from your professor.
I'm a fairly low-rated player, probably between 800-1200 and visually impaired. Would Chessable be worthwhile at my level?
I understand the basics of tactics: forks, pins & skewers and the only puzzles I'm able to do are those with a single move.
As Jesse mentioned, books are on their way out. Diagrams in chess books are useless to me unless I take a photo of each one and magnify it, then set it up in a Lichess study. Possible but awkward and incovenient.
Which paid courses would you suggest for my level? Are the Short & Sweet courses the only free ones?
I really appreciate Chessable courses with video. 100 endings. You read what Jesus says. And then JB tells you and shows you on the board what Jesus just said. So I get the information twice, differently. And I can pause and replay the video. Sometimes its difficult for me to concentrate. So to watch the video, replay the video, replay it again, and do the exercises, its a valuable tool for me.
I also do not like studying openings in general. I prefer other content. But chessable is probably the best way to learn an opening and drill it. And its just a great way to learn any chess content. I prefer to study chessable first. Some books I also have the kindle version for reference as well thats always with me on my phone wherever I go.
Please make a vídeo about the top 10 courses in chessable
YES! What courses for different levels.
I think the difficulty with this is that courses are coming out every other day. Too much of a good thing
I have gone through nepo's kings gambit course and the first half of it I was taking my time, and at some point I fell for that trap, I also didn't like that the timer for the repetition portion of the openings didn't seem to give me enough time to crystalize the correct move instead of what I would instinctually play
If the book is dead why are there sessions on the best books and how to use chess books?
Very good review,I agree with Kostya and Jesse.I'been using chessable since almost the beginning of the site,expendig a lot of money on it,and I mean a lot,which points toward one of the issues,sometimes the materials are too expensive in relation to the practical profit you will get from them.I use the books just as a physical book withe the possibility of playing them in a virtualboard...With respect to the supposed wonderful and unique system that chessable uses to memorize,well, it is rather preposterous,particulartly for most amateur players, I see many of them fighting to rise on the poll of who does more memorizarion...The fact is that if you have just memorize and your opponent has a comprehension of the position and comes with a move of his own that isnot in the book,you will be most likely as lost as Adam during Mother's day... In my case I do not do any memorization drill at all,I just study the material as with a book,and of course,I enjoy the videos if the course includes them. Besides all that, I am kind of addict to chessable like it anyway and keep expendig my money on it...Sic Transit gloria mundi...and man's stupidity!
Having a shelf of great chess books that you have never finished is not why you shouldn't switch to Chessable; having a shelf of books that you don't finish is exactly why you do switch to Chessable.
I find the most interesting feature of chessable to be the interactive forum, you get to learn what users most want and also get to evaluate how much an author really believes in his work by the way he handles any challenging queries posed.
Speaking of authors, I also find it curious how little titled players contribute in the forum unless it is to plug some course they are selling. Such behavior I consider to be extremely craven and self serving, that the only time you can share insights is when you want to convince the rank & file to buy your course. This common practice really offends my sensibilities to the point that if such a course is not well done, rather that remain silent about it, I will publicly eviscerate the authors lazy and misleading analysis.
Maybe not the most gentlemanly way to voice disapproval of such traits, but then again I never claimed to be perfect. :)
Isn't that author specific, though? Anish for example responded to a post about his course in relation to a naroditsky game (and it wasn't even in the forum for the course) and certain other authors also respond quite actively. Not all of them, though. It just depends.
@@tiocsti That's exactly my point though, these titled players generally only make comments as it directly relates to them or their self interests. I thought my previous post made that point pretty clear.
That's not entirely correct. I have often received replies and seen replies from GM Wesley So, GM Shankland, GM L'Ami. It's out there. There's also an indicator before you buy a course to the side of the browser window that indicates whether or not you will hear from the author, community, or staff.
@@SpyridonTheWonderWkr If you are talking about the 'Support Level' indicator then that is often unreliable, also I think you don't fully get the gist of the point I was trying to make, of course authors will respond to queries related to their course, at least initially, that's a given. Re-read my initial post carefully, reflect on it awhile, let the crux of it digest, and then report back.
@@kwhd559 I understand what you're saying now. Though I will have to disagree with you on the support level indicator, though perhaps my experience is an outlying case.
To your point, I would like to say that it is difficult to make a living as a chess player, and it might not be a reasonable expectation to expect them to be part of the forum outside of monetary gain. One could imagine the titled players are busy working on their own chess play, or going about their daily lives.
That said, if one finds their content to be poor in quality then the review should certainly reflect that in order to improve it.
Has my comment been hidden because of automatic filters? Mine was like the first comment, I put some time into it, and it seems it was ignored. :(
Anyway, good video. My thoughts and suggestions are in my original comment.
We don't see it on our end, sorry!
@@ChessDojo No problemo. Here it is:
As Kostya says, I found reading the explanation for the moves extremely necessary. Without reading, sure, you can eventually just memorize the move, but it's not as useful.
Now, the amount of detail there is to learn varies from author to author, and also varies from text-only access to text+video access.
Sometimes, authors put basically the same amount of detail in their text notes than in the video version of the course; but other times the comparison shows much less attention to the text-only version. When video versions of the courses may be 5 times more expensive than text-only counterparts, that's a big issue.
Some authors do take text-only versions of the course seriously, and some others seem to view it as a mere preview, leaving the real explanation for longer, much more expensive videos. Which is unfortunate, and sometimes feel a little bit like cheating: If the versions differ do much, they should be called something like "Full" and "lite" in their case, IMO.
I have bought and study a couple of their opening courses as a beginner, and I'm quite aware simply memorizing openings is not the way to go. Still, I do find value in being aware of some lines just as a starting point to think about why they could be a good idea in comparison to other sequences or reactions to situations.
For example, in one of their courses, the text only version of the course had no explanation of why some specific move was preferable in certain circumstance, so I recreated the position in more than one window and just starting comparing how the evaluation bar changed when playing some other move, also assuming both bad replies (like moving a random pawn) and some more understandable ones to each branch of moves.
Aside from the original helping value of the course, I found that kind of analysis quite useful for me, as it gave me some ideas and made me aware of some suboptimal choices I tend to choose. It was like... A way to force me to think "What am I doing wrong that my chosen move is evaluated as waaay less benefitial to me? What mistake I'm making?", which has lead me to learn a couple of things.
As for what Jesse says about Chessable showing you some position but not indicating from what line it comes from, I've been there. So I had to change the configuration to get not only the specific move I'm trying to learn, but the whole sequence of moves it comes from. Of course, this causes overstudying (and Chessable calls it that and give you no extra points for correctly recalling the previous moves that get you into the relevant position), and may be redundant, but it is what has worked for me.
I guess a better way to go would be Chessable giving the option of being shown "x" number of moves that lead to the relevant position, not as something one has to play, but simply as an automatic refresher, put there to give context.
Its useful, it introduces a lot of fresh ideas to chess software market(I suppose chessbase guys will improve repetition feature some day) but its also overrated :)
Chessable uses magical trick behind woodpecker method plus some captain obvious research to sell content, something like "even when you are lazy you can improve by repetition w/o thinking and you will get useless badges" :) Which is great for authors and for chess communicty :) And there is lot of high quailty content so it makes some sense, when you dont plan to put position on the board(because you have it). But video is fking expensive and you cannot export pgn(which is counterproductive as you can find any chessable content on russian websites)
Openings, Endgames, Collections of positions/exercises - yes, I recommend. The COLLECTION is something is useful to repeat and I see value that i can pay 50$ for someone to put it on computer. But I need custom collection, that consists everything what I learned, not course collection. So you need chessbase/scid anyway. Ofc endgame manuals , exercise collections or opeinings are exceptions because you need learn them all at some point
Strategy topics, book with games, analysis, presenting concepts - better buy a paper book and build your custom database in any software that has analysis board because you learn what you should learn, you want to put your notes, not just "follow the method - read and repeat". Actually you can create your own course and put any positions but i do it faster in non-chess flashcard software like Anki.
You probably need to adjust repeitiion in the beginning(because it will be too fast unless you plan repeat only 1-2 courses for some time and then siwtch). But people dont do that. People should learn that progress its not abut repeating collection of exercises but about thinking, questioning. Which is done by analysis, commenting by you. Which is done better by lichess/chessom or any chess software like Chessbase.
Chessbase motivated me for some time (i was too lazy for books for some time) but when i back to books i realized that chessable is like toy for kids who want fun :) i want to improve my chess, manage my training consciously, use many methods not just repeat everything. OFC chessable gives you possibility to repeat any bougt content and your custom content which is great.
Also good is that they are high level courses. But there also some teachers that say captain obvious bullshit (mostly for beginners but not only), like Simon Williams(Art of Attack video version suck), Daniel King, or Andras Toth(yeah i know he is good teacher but his courses mostly present same positions that are on video instead of giving you exercises - which is good but you dont need chessable for reading collection of analyzed books). Openings - Grunfeld Course and other opening courses are awesome, highest quality, however Anish Giri course about Dragon covers rather sidelines than mainlines, to shorten the path was not i looking for :P If i want to shorten my path to theory I would not learn the dragon :)
Importing pgns is buggy and it will suck when you import repertoire with a lot of transpositions. You also cannot export pgns from the books which suck because you want your repertoire when you are offline. Often videos cover only part(ex. Dvoretsky Endgame Manual) so it does not make sense to me to buy it unless you want support author(but i prefer supproting authors who do something useful for me). Which could be good for De la Villa but not for the Endgame Manual.