CATL's Sodium-Ion Battery: Better than Lithium?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- Contemporary Amperex Technology or CATL recently unveiled their first generation sodium ion batteries for commercial use. I have been hearing a lot about this technology and thought that it would be worth talking about.
Scientists started off developing sodium ion batteries right alongside lithium ion batteries. Over time, lithium rose to dominance and sodium fell by the wayside. But now things have changed, and sodium ion batteries have started to see renewed interest.
In this video, we will briefly review sodium ion batteries, their state of development, and what their commercialization means for the renewable energy market at large.
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If they are in 18650 etc cell or pouch type it doesn't matter about thee chemistry as long as they can be reversed engineered from ` Car A ` ? months ? years later to fit ` Car M ` and so on... as cars get older they need to be in a ` reverse engineerable format ` other wise it`ll be short life span technology... a
Nah glass batteries are the future.
Naive. 90% of batteries weight and energy is the cathode. Most still use 1800s era cathode material. Cathode material determines battery life. Ion batteries depend on reversible intercalcation of ions to not damage the Cathode material. Sodium ions are huge in comparison and damages standard cathode materials. Sodium is long-term incompatible with today's ionic electrolytes, so a new chemistry needs to be designed and tested.
One factor that always needs to be included in statements of energy density, but almost never is, is the energy density at the totally integrated pack level. While this is hard to state with great precision because the variations of each individual installation, it is possible to identify features of a specific battery that will strongly impact the weight of the non-battery portions of the pack, such as thermal isolation to control thermal runaway of a single cell so it doesn't cause a cascading failure of the entire pack and the cooling system (which should include the weight of the cooling equipment outside the pack itself like cooling lines, coolant, pumps, radiators and fans).
A new battery like these Na-ion might only have an energy density at the cell level of 180-200 Wh/kg while the latest Li-ion are up around 280 Wh/kg, but the high flammability of the electrolyte of the Li-ion battery and the accelerated degradation when cell temperatures are not tightly controlled result in a considerable addition to the total pack weight and a commensurate reduction in net energy density. If a new battery chemistry like this Na-ion cells doesn't have the flammability and thermal runaway issues and so don't require careful thermal isolation between every cell and if they can retain their charge capacity even at elevated temperatures, then a lot of weight can be eliminated from the battery pack. The result would be that the fully integrated net energy density could be much closer or potentially even superior to Li-ion batteries.
And if the new battery is cheaper and/or has a longer cycle life, even if the pack energy density is still slightly lower, these types of batteries could still win out over Li-ion batteries in applications like large commercial vehicles which might be less sensitive to weight/range and more sensitive to total lifecycle cost and reliability/safety.
Ok but lithium iron phosphate is pretty safe and doesn't have thermal runaway like lithium polymer
Ok but lithium iron phosphate is pretty safe and doesn't have thermal runaway like lithium polymer
Another big part of this is the operating temperature range, the need for a battery management system (BMS), and whether it will need an active thermal management system. 10,000 cycles with only 5% loss of capacity is a huge deal, as one often overlooked metric, but the most important one, is cost per kWhr/cycle
@@NeilBooth Tesla has made some model 3's with LFP battery packs, the LFP Model 3's are about 250 lbs heavier, have more Kwh, and achieve better real-world range. So in practice the OP's comment holds up, having a less sensitive battery cell lets you get those energy density figures pretty close at pack-level. LFP batteries are good, but Lithium will still suffer scarcity prices, so it's good to be developing these alternative chemistries that use more much more common elements. Sodium and Aluminum battery chemistries would be good for large-scale "economy grade" battery cells to use in cheaper EVs and grid storage.
@@0hypnotoad0 Mhmm. Density doesn't matter at all for solar setups for example. Longevity, cost per Wh and ecological impact are what matter here.
One major benefit of LifePo4 batteries over L-ion is that LifePo4 batteries are not subject to thermal runaway fires. There was no mention of this aspect of Na-ion. I see the lower cost of Na-ion or other non lithium technologies as a secondary driver. The primary driver is that by using them in stationary applications where density is not as critical, you can save the lithium for the applications where it does matter. For my residential solar, I could double the volume of my battery with little if any downside, and weight would only be relevant for shipping.
Yeah, grid storage. Unless a person has REALLY delved into green energy they have no idea about what grid storage can be and why something like Li-Ion batteries with their energy density are actually inferior for grid storage due to cost and other problems especially with the amount of rare earth materials needed, which you CAN'T do for grid storage.
In the U.S. there's a company named ESS that makes iron redux flow batteries. That's another really good solution. Main ingredient, water.
Majority of battery fires are LiFePO4. Please research.
I am unsure what you mean by runaway fires, but puncture a LiFePo4 battery it will create a blowtorch burning at over 1300°C
"LifePo4 batteries are not subject to thermal runaway fires" - honey, you've obviously not worked with any batteries systems, so please don't make grandiose statements like this one. I'll grant you that ferites are less susceptible than for example Cobalt of manganese fellas, but only titanium variants are considered (semi) safe - and those are dear as hell because titanium is so damn rare and hard to work with.
What you mean by over L-ion? The nickel one?
Considering how much of an EV is battery cost then 10-30% cost reduction on the batteries could absolutely be worthwhile. Even if the energy density is a little less.
This would be a game changer for the EV adoption. Lets hope it holds up to the high expectations.
The real metrics needed are cost/kWh vs weight of needed capacity.
other considerations:
Na+ cells are heavier for less capacity which can potentially reduce the efficiency of the motors in EVs
Na+ don't suffer from the same level of degradation of capacity that Li+ does (the so called "battery memory")
Na+ has yet to be commercialized, and because it is emerging initial models will be much more expensive to recoup the cost of installing production facilities (or adapting current systems)
NA+ has a lower nominal voltage than Li+ and this is based on the chemical composition of the batteries and cannot be overcome. Li+ thus provides more desirable power for EV use
The point of developing Na+ batteries isn't actually to completely replace Li+ across the board, rather to reduce their use to situations where their density and voltage are required. By using these Na+ for mass energy storage (homes, power grid, industrial and commercial) the demand for Li+ will drop (reducing costs) and become more available for consumer use and in industries that require them.
availability (abundance) and low environmental impact is perhaps the most dominant factor of all as we're still at the cusp of EV transition. Will need a battery tech that stands up to a scale when everyone that currently drives a vehicle is driving an EV
A reduction in energy density is not acceptable to anyone designing with secondary batteries
I have made sodium battery based on Aqs electrolyte which is more energy dense than lead acid battery and much lighter Wight with 2.6 to 3.1 volts using sodium based salt i have video of it . I can improve it much better if i can find required materials like Organic solvent pc , EC , or DES , Na based chlorate salt
Don't care about energy density because I need it as stationary power storage
All I care is Life Cycles
Look up Liquid Metal batteries. Cheap, stable, and tons of life cycles. Not suitable for mobile applications of course, but as a stationary power storage, it has a lot to recommend it.
@@ShneekeyTheLost y not suitable for mobile applications?
@@fannyalbi9040 During operation, you're basically looking at molten metals being alloyed and unalloyed for energy storage. Sloshing that around is going to lead to a Bad Time (tm). Furthermore, it's heavy, since again, you're looking at large chunks of metal. Energy density is not particularly favorable either.
So not really suitable for things like EV's, but absolutely amazing for grid-level energy storage and even home energy storage as a possible inexpensive alternative.
@@ShneekeyTheLost Keeping liters of molten metal in the house, what could possibly go wrong?
@@dskaz8926 Given that it's in a ceramic container? Not much, honestly. If the containment cracks, the entire thing shuts down and solidifies. At worst, you have an inert lump of metal.
As opposed to, say, Lithium Ion batteries, which can and do catch fire and explode if dendrite formation causes a short.
For those wandering energy density of different Battery Chemistries for comparison: (in Wh/kg)
LTO: 50-80
LCO: 150-200
LNMC: 150-220
LFP: 90-160
The sodium battery on this video presumably achieves 160Wh/kg, same as LFPs. Very nice indeed.
PD:
LTO = Lithium Titanate
LCO = Lithium Cobalt Oxide
LNMC = Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide
LFP = Lithium Iron Phosphate
Thank you
it looks a bit outdated. The NMC5/6/7/8/9 all have different energy densities -- the 8 being the most commonly used today and the 9 (used in Ford's F-150 and Hyundai/Kia EV9, Ioniq 5N) for instance is in the range 300-320. The highest density for LFP from Guoxuan is 200.
We are proud of CATL, such a big leading EV battery maker in China.
I would imagine that CATL benefits from having in-house manufacturing know-how to help them come up with realistic costs and production modeling.
Already having production facilities built and useable equipment installed, there is no one better positioned to make Na+ cells than current Li+ producers. Given the potential profit for becoming the first major manufacturer of what could be the next generation of global energy storage , its no surprise they have invested so much money into the development. Lucky for them that their industry is growing in a sustainable direction
Michael Whitney We're still at the cusp of transition to EV - when everyone driving a vehicle is driving an EV, we're going to need a different tech than Lithium (and Cobalt and Nickel). Availability (abundance) and low environmental impact (sustainability) will become THE dominant factors. Sodium, carbon, iron rust are very abundant resources on Earth and can be obtained and refined with less onerous technique than the more exotic elements. Factors like driving range would not be so problematic once charging stations are ubiquitous such that any place a vehicle can be parked has a charging receptacle.
Thank you for producing this. Many people are unaware that while sodium ion batteries and calcium ion batteries are too heavy for electric cars, they are great for storing utility scale power where weight is unimportant. Also, I can't see how we could possibly run out of sodium!
thay may even make desalination water plant economically viable in the future by having a good income stream from sodium produced as a byproduct
EASY ! Sodium Batteries , to run just 50 km, in a Hydrogen Fuel cell/ hybrid vehicle ! - the total weight of the hydrogen(plus tank), plus Fuel cells + Sodium battery, should be roughly equal to the weigh of a 200km range Lithium Battery pack.
Yup, grid storage, not BEV.
@@avibhagan LFP batteries already solve almost all issues for BEV other than lithium and even Tesla has contracted to use LFP batteries so I just don't see it happening.
And the big pushers of hydrogen which have been a couple Japanese auto makers, Toyota and Honda, have pretty much conceded they need to move to BEV, so the whole hydrogen thing is dead for cars and small trucks. It MIGHT make it's way into ocean transport and long haul trucking in some countries. I'm skeptical because it's just SO INEFFICIENT it's INSANE!!!
The amount of conversions and the cost that goes into each conversion make hydrogen almost laughable, then add in it's incredibly hard to store AND if you were to even use this for long haul trucking, the amount of infrastructure needed would be cost prohibitive and add in high pressure and hydrogen go together just like a HUGE BOMB. There WILL be an accident eventually if you went to large scale use and each one would get more and more people to be anti-hydrogen.
So, just no. Increasing electricity production and charging a battery is WAY more efficient and less costly than hydrogen. And money matters. Go ask all the people who can't afford their rents and mortgages anymore due to the latest round on inflation. BEV can be manufactured for less cost than ICEV. Tesla can already do this but they have MASSIVE profit margins, and Chinese auto makers already do this, which is where most BEV is. Or, almost 50% of all BEVs on the road are in China. Most BEVs are manufactured in China.
@@johndoh5182
Oh. You poor Mary Antoinette syndrome person.
Lithium batteries solve nothing.
They aren't scalable. There isn't enough lithium available. Mining lithium is expensive and not "green".
Sodium is incredibly abundant and can be manufactured from sea water using wind and solar.
And it can be scaled economically.
Scaling up lithium battery production will increase battery costs because of demand and supply economics.
Hydrogen Fuel cell Hybrid vehicles. (Vehicles that work like a gas/hybrid). Are scalable, and more efficient than any other vehicle.
Most people don't drive 200 km a day. So, a plugin hybrid hydrogen fuel cell vehicle, with a sodium battery with a 50km, range, would almost never run out of hydrogen.
The hydrogen would only be used when you drive more than 50 km.
The problem with EV, is the weight of the battery, when you need 200km of range. We're talking about 600lbs of batteries. Reducing that to 150lbs of battery with a hydrogen fuel cell and tank, which would be another 150 lbs, makes the entire vehicle more efficient, simply by cutting weight.
Furthermore, hydrogen isn't more dangerous than a butane tank on a barbeque. In fact hydrogen doesn't explode without oxygen present. A match in pure hydrogen, puts out a flame, it doesn't explode.
Furthermore, Lithium batteries are more explosive and dangerous than hydrogen tanks. Gasoline is extremely flammable and also explosive.
Another great video!!
I'm also impressed that you found all that historical info on Na+ battery tech.
Keep up the good work!
I really want to know how he does his research. so many unrelated topics and reasonably in depth too!
you have the best channel i've found in quite awhile. Best, meaning comprehensive view of diverse set of topics, i think pretty balanced, and engaging visuals
Your videos keep getting suggested to me, and I click, enjoy, and decide to subscribe only to find that I'm already subbed. Compelling high quality content.
Very good audio and visual. Clear and concise. I look forward to your next video. Keep up the good work. This type of video is much appreciated.
When it comes to any battery based on crystalline structures it's always a question of doping. The Na-ion battery hasn't yet received the attention needed to test the wide range of doping capabilities possible. We know that some of the most efficient biological systems out there use sodium but the question is can we dope the salt crystal while still keeping it stable / and redesign the structure to accommodate the anode and cathode based on the direction of the lattice structure. I'm just a noob but if we can more easily control the structure of the lattice of the material in question then that would result in cheaper manufacturing I'd think. I hold to hope for this technology.
Yep, gotta wonder why our bodies prefer sodium to conduct signals over everything else.
Very well presented with a pletora of essential details. Thanks!
I like your content quite informative and educational in most cases, especially the insights into many industries and companies in the broader East Asia region...a suggestion I felt after watching this one is that maybe if you have the time, is for a video comparing new and upcoming battery technologies to Li-ion like the Solid states, the metal-air and other chemistries like Sodium-Ion....
liked, sub'ed and signed up to the newsletter, great content - thank you
Very well explained. It’s a highly interesting technology for stationary purposes.
Good to hear a new battery tech finally making it to the market, it seems like there are at least a few possible breakthroughs reporter on per year but all notoriously around five years away from being plausibly in actual products, however seemingly nothing but minor iterative improvements on existing tech lines have been making it to market for decades.
Incremental improvements on existing tech can take you a long way over decades
after that Tesla grid storage Lithium battery just caught on fire in Australia, am not very inclined to have a Tesla Powerwall battery in the home. A less efficient, bulkier battery tech would be perfectly fine in that scenario if it offered much greater peace of mind so far as safety goes.
It wouldn't. There is still the same amount of energy stored, and it would use the same flammable solvents. There are certainly risks associated, but they can be managed to gas explosion levels. If you start to look you realise there is a lot that can go wrong in a home that regulation keeps in check (usually, it is only obvious when it fails). This is no different.
There are still lessons to be learned, but I would assume (and hope) that the domestic installations have significantly more safety features than for the ones deployed in the desert.
@@agsystems8220 The problem is energy density - the same amount of energy in a very small volume becomes very like an explosive. The energy density of a typical lithium battery is not far off that of TNT. A cabin crew neighbour told me she has dealt with 3 on-board fires in smartphones, usually by putting them in a metal cocktail shaker!
Another great video. I can see a rise in subscribers. You sure deserve good compensation for all the great research effort.
Really appreciate your research. Very good video
great presentation. its obvious you are very widely knowledgable with the
state of battery evolution. yet you throw in light comments that make
it easy to pay further attention . your style plus the material will have
me coming back for more . and seeing what's already been released.
Great video, top level knowladge
What a great and informative video! Very geeky, but I love it!
Yes, better than Lithium. Price is more important than range, especially for cities! We need more 50-250 mile EVs! Or rather, we have enough at the top of that range, but we need them to be cheaper!
I have not said any nuclear power stations should be mothballed. I live in the UK, hardly have any nuclear power and the new development will be Enriched Uranium-based, shame, but not too late to halt it. I am very much against wind farms and hydro-power.. Solar is fine as long as not subsidised..
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EVs are as fake green as you can get. Evermore complicated manufacturing processes to deliver what will always be an inferior solution due to the limited max fuel capacity of even the best theoretical battery (barring a nuclear battery....an Iron + Carbohydrate economy is much easier to recycle than a 1000 rare chemicals + Lithium (or hopefully Potassium) economy.
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Exhaust gas can be stored in the vehicle, perhaps in conjunction with a hydrogen cell in a closed loop, where the carbon and oxygen is just used to stabilise the hydrogen after being released from the cell.. Oxygen can be filtered out of the exhaust fumes and released, while the rest is compressed into a tank (cleverly sharing space with the fuel tank, and also pressuring the fuel).. This can be deposited as a gas station for reprocessing.. Fake Greens in the UK gave a tax break to carcinogenic diesel cars, BTW..
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There is still a lot of potential to extract more from efficiency from carbohydrate fuels. and engines designs. Cheaper, simpler, more reliable designs that run on many different fuels.. I have a nice combined ICE + heat engine.. It's rotary, crankless, free piston, small and simple. I probably stick my bad 2D drawings up on a youtube vid at some point. The idea is very cool. Power-to-weight and complexity/simplicity are the factors I look at, in manufacutirng and recycling terms.. I have never agreed with with industrialing the third world. Sorry, I'm not a Liberal.
There are other ways to make things cheaper. Deflating the WAY OVERINFLATED Greenback, is surely one way. But, of course because doing that would make perfect sence. Nobody would ever do it.
No the overall price of an EV Automobile isn't itself the problem. Most EVs today are little more expensive than "normal" cars. The problem is two fold.
1 The aforementioned range.
2 The time it takes to recharge the battery. Sure Quickcharge is a thing if you want to kill your investment even quicker. You can cheat the system all day long, but these Batteries prefer a longer charge time than most people would prefer. What when you can 'rechage' a normal Car. In less than 90s at the Gas pump, pay the bill, and be on your way. Even a quick change would take you over an hour, and again only hurts the batter pack more than just letting it charge overnight.
@@Ichijoe2112 ,, Problem is the ever-growing quantity of rare raw materials and complex manufactured materials used in ever-more complex vehicles. Your ability is make new materials is not matched by your ability to recycle them, and is matched by your ability to bury this under the carpet. We should be developing clean carbohydrate fuels and better ICEs (+ heat engine combination, ideally). The more 'power efficient' your cars get the more resources their manufacture consumes.
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Also, there is only one FINAL SOLUTION to the IMPENDING DOOM that all ice core records show will happen in the next few hundred to 7000 years - THE INEVITABLE NEXT ICE AGE.. Interglacial periods last from 10,000 to 20,000 years in the ice core record. We're about 13,000 years in. The only solution is MAN MADE GLOBAL WARMING.. Trapped Under Ice.
@@Ichijoe2112 .. The real problem is the Internazi Fake Green Fake Economists want to industrialise and develop the entire 3rd world. Just imagine the amount of Neodymium, Cobalt and Lithium (or hopefully potassium) alone, scaled up massively.. The problem is each e-vehicle has a much higher 'natural resource footprint' even if it's carbon footprint is lower than a normal vehicle. The total tonnage of land mined to make e-vehicles is much higher than better, older cars.
Price is more important to you, not me.
Note the difference between the wide class of “sodium batteries” and the more specific “sodium ion batteries”. I’d say that within that wider class, there are “sodium ion”, “sodium metal”, and “molten sodium” battery chemistries. The advantage of sodium ion cells is they’re basically designed to compete with lithium ion cells, which have the high energy and power densities needed for electric cars. That said, the complex manufacturing process and potential for dendrites make these still not as optimal as they could be, especially for grid storage. “Sodium metal” batteries would consist of batteries with a solid sodium metal electrode, would likely be primary cells without some rather strange electrolyte, and could be major fire hazards when punctured. “Molten sodium” cells are even worse for danger, and also have that heat problem you mentioned, but they’re basically impervious to dendrites or other electrode damage, since the electrodes are liquid. There are also notable alloys like NaK and GalInStan that are liquid at room temperature and would hence have no heating overhead, and there are also some strange salts that are molten at room temperature. Importantly, these molten cells have very simple internals, and are more promising for grid storage where weight doesn’t matter. For grid storage to be viable for a country like Germany to switch off all its coal and solely rely on solar and wind, it needs to be orders of magnitude cheaper than lithium ion.
Perfect video ! Thanks a lot!
Just attended a Faradion lecture and had to come back to this! I’m a PhD student of thermal batteries and glad it got a shoutout in this video
From your point of view, can sodium battery surpass lithium ion during these era?
@@firdauszainudin7118 Faradion’s cell design gives similar energy densities to lithium ion batteries. But they also want to focus on safety and sustainability. Sustainability means eliminating the Nickel but that means less energy density. It’s tough to balance everything. I’m not sure it’s possible to surpass lithium ion in this decade. Also CATL hasn’t disclosed their cell chemistry yet.
great insightful vids
Great video, very informative.
Good insight into CATL's latest direction, John.
And I would agree this tech makes more sense for grid scale storage than transportation.
So, why do you think 'charcoal' for anodes rather than graphite or even graphene?
I'm not a battery expert, so take this with a grain of electrolyte...
Charcoal is very similar to graphite in many of its properties, but it is extremely porous. In battery tech this is a good thing, since it can soak up the electrolyte solution and serve as a reservoir as well as an electrode.
@@KonradTheWizzard I will take it with a molten drop of electrolyte. 😉
Totally understand that a highly porous anode will have much more surface area,
My general feeling is that CATL is going for scalability and cost effectiveness.
@Jim Urrata. Charcoal, graphite and graphene are common carbon. Which is lighter and for what purpose, like weight?
@@buddhasattva There are a couple of forms of graphite and graphene too.
"lighter" in what regard? Graphene is only one atom thick, so as a film or nanotubes it is going to have the most surface area and very likely be the "lightest"
Where an aerogel of carbon is probably the form where you would find the best balance of surface area with enough structure to still use as a conductive anode.
But coke or steam activated charcoal is going to be less expensive and still plenty porous.
Being able to _implement_ battery technology today is very much a matter of IP. Just look at how much Tesla paid for Maxwell...
The reactivity of alkali metals (the ones in the leftmost column of the Periodic Table) increases as you go down the column, so sodium reacts more strongly than lithium, and should be able to hold more charge if all other limiting factors could be resolved. Hypothetically the best alkali metal to use in a battery would be the one all the way at the bottom -- Francium -- but there's the minor problem that it's catastrophically radioactive.
Working against that is that the atomic mass of each element increases. Each sodium atom is more than three times heavier, so I would expect the maximum performance of the best sodium ion battery to be less than the maximum performance of the best lithium ion battery, as Asianometry said was likely.
It amazes me your intelligence and diversity of knowledge. We then get a picture explaining the sea is full of salt and fish pee! It's fantastic to see someone not taking themselves too seriously!
very useful information, thanking you
Some big breakthroughs would be great
thank for watching great detail video and share other
This channel makes appreciate science
Love it. When were gonna see these new batteries installed in what vehicles?
Due to its size and weight, this kind of battery is good for replacing Li-ion battery only on non moving ones, eg Communication BTS, UPS battery, battery for solar panels, etc.
The most important point of any competing battery solution is what is the battery capacity after a thousands charge-discharge cycles.
Great video! I was wondering if the Sodium Ion batteries have the same bad qualities of Lithium Ion, so far as catching fire or exploding, or losing capacity in the cold.
Explosive risk is less, but not zero
John, you should also be aware of a 100 year tech called liquid air, this is a substitute for pumped hydro but no special locartions are required... the problem of batteries is if you need twice the power the batteries are twice the cost. Liquid air batteries may only be 5-10% more expensive to double the power, and you can keep the charge for WEEKS or MONTHS! Can't do that with any battery. The most important current proponent of liquid air batteries is Highview Power/
As soon as we have a 10Kw capacity battery with a solid electrolyte plus fast recharge and efficient endless recycles, I'm going offgrid baby
child what are you talking about? it is already here.
@@ursodermatt8809 where do you order it if it's already here. bullshit
@@ronblack7870
you can buy 10kwh batteries in many places
Just get a dirt old EV or a wreck with a >20kW battery. The battery will last many decades before it drops to 10kW.
@@ursodermatt8809 but they also want a solid electrolyte, fast recharge, and "endless" cycles
SSBs already have the hearts and minds of the industry. GL. If’s it’s cheap enough, maybe it’ll be used for grid storage.
Thank's for interesting video 👍
Something I don't often hear about is that because we don't find pure sodium on the surface of Earth (it is actually more reactive than lithium) we have to gather it from other sources such as the ocean water or salt lakes. This is done through electrolysis or thermal energy leaving behind the salts.
From electrolysis, the oxygen and hydrogen can be used in a hydrogen fuel cell to generate clean energy, and with the thermal energy the steam could power turbines for the same ends while providing clean desalinated water. In some regions the same can be said of Li+, but this is about 40% of what is useable as opposed to the sodium which is 1000x more abundant and makes up 3% (by weight as NaCl) of all seawater.
What do you think about Ess Inc Iron Flow Batteries?
For those wondering, Prussian Blue is made of iron, carbon, and nitrogen. He should have mentioned this in the video.
Is it edible
That's not how it's made today
@@bingosunnoon9341 So what's in it today?
Just don't mention that its chemical name is sodium ferrous hexa-cyanide and if it comes into contact with acid it'll release hydrogen cyanide gas....
Wow! Really good presentation of Sodium-Ion battery, even for a layman as me 😃
Great video. Thanks
Very well done.
What’re your thoughts on iron air batteries
than Al air is much better than Fe
Thumbs up and subscribed!
I've had talks with senior associates of Dr Zeng of CATL, it seemed the drive for Sodium was born with the frustration of miscalculation of the Lithium carbonate prices and the high price has been eating away at Zeng's Margins.
Well presented
Great video. Subbing :)
outstanding find out
Quality content.
Dr. Goodenough(sp?) the co-inventor of Li Ion has been working on low temp Na and has made a prototype that’s been developed over the last few years. Dr Goodenough is nearly 100 years old.
Na-ios have less energy density than lithium-ion ... I don't think Tesla planned to put this on a car.
But Na-ion to reduce cost for Power wall / Sola cell is a good option.
You might not want to put them in a car, but you very much might want to put them on a bus.
@@SianaGearz i thought they are both same at 160wH/kg
Hey man! Great video! What is the name of the paper that suggested 10-30% cost decrease?
hi Jordan :)
Do other metals in the same group, such as potassium and Cesium, have any potential for use in batteries or are they too volatile?
They would have an even lower energy density and are with the exception of potassium far to rare to ever be competitive for stationary applications. I would say it is highly unlikely.
Do sodium air batteries. Great videos. Cheers!
Do we know how many Charge and discharge cycles it can take?
Good content. Thx
Great info.
The founding chairman of the new tech car battery is richer than Jack Ma now.
Isn't this due to Chinese government's beef over Jack Ma's shadowbanking push? Alibaba stock dropped 25% YTD.
@@wyw201 Jack Ma a puppet of Soros. CCP is keeping a close eye on Alibaba now.
What about Sodium Sulfur battery? High energy density and they have increased the charging cycles to close to that of the current Lithium-ion battery
Can you add references to the video description?
I don't see anyone mentioning the Naion battery's DOD or depth of discharge level. Is it similar to Lion or LiPo of 80% or Lead Acid of 50%?
I have a alloy With high electrode potential liquid at room temperature it can be use to build room temperature liquid metal battery .
interesting!! so can you tell me how they compare to Li ion as far as energy density 30% or 80% ... ?
Home UPS can also be a good use case?
You should read up on Vanadium redox flow battery tech. It is much more viable, but for some reason it has never cought on...
We already have a good enough battery for electric cars with the use of battery exhange stations.
As for grid energy storage, sodium would be so much better.
Only airplanes need the densest energy storage.
We need to conserve copper by running as much as we can using themal solar generated hydrogen.
Recycled copper is abundant.
Focusing on stationary storage and differentiating with a different chemistry would be great. If we ever get serious about climate change then storage is the key. A country stepping up like Japan/Germany did with solar In stationary storage would dramatically lower prices. But utilities would be destroyed so I don’t think the lobbyists will be letting this happen.
Great stuff
There are many important parameters to consider when evaluating battery technologies.
Power-density relates to maximum current flow during charging and discharging. This is not mentioned in the presentation. The main advantage of the new 4680 cell from Tesla is powerdensity (not energydensity). Energydensity is rather fundamentel for the chosen ion-type. That is why theoretically lithium will always be the best starting point in development. Current lithium-ion batteries already attain 50 % of their theoretical maximum density, so there can not be much progress anymore.
If Na+ and Cl- go so well together, is there no compound of Chlorine we can use in the battery?
Can you do a follow up for this!
For me, the main shortcoming of today's batteries is the low cycle (Charge/Discharge) life. Li-ion degrades quickly in most laptops I had. There are some which lasted longer though. Probably because of Japanese-made batteries inside. So if this 10k cycle life is real, then sodium can really stand out.
Li can last much longer than you might have experienced
if the charging is controlled.
They last much longer if they stay within 30-80% unless needed.
LFP has much longer lifespan 15 -20 years
is it really a limit? ok, in laptops the use cycle is short (you will charge it almost every day, so a day per cycle is normal, and can get higher), but still a 1K-2K cycle means 2-5 years, if used daily, which is not that bad for something you use regularly and still went for cheap one, instead of a 5k-10K cycle battery, that would work for decade or more on a daily usage.
Sodium ion suffers the same dendritic growth during cycling as Lithium. Sodium ion battery also suffers low capacity compared to lithium. Sodium is more reactive element than lithium. Availability of sodium is practically the only plus.
If we want to get rid of dendritic growth, we need to look toward magnesium and especially to aluminium ion batteries research.
Great episode.
+1
Great video
If you have the space, especially storage these batteries will be apsolutely fine.. For homes, for industry etc
Research affirms the potential of low-cost and high-performance sodium-ion batteries to gain a strong foothold in the battery market. As the world increasingly looks for safe and sustainable energy storage, sodium-ion technology innovation is only going to get better in the future. Now every country when mentioning battery thermal runaway, the fire fighters shivered.
Every futuristic youtube channel, always talk about technology that never see the light of day. Every single one of these channels.
Nice new technology! 😀
we need cold weather battery choice , so density isn't priority . good to have it as alternative
A couple things/ First, we are not going to run out of Li any time soon. Look at the cost per kg of Li, it is not a big deal. It hasn't been valuable enough to mine in large quantities, but now people are discovering large Li deposits. Li is easy to recycle once you get it out of the case. Another issue about Na and K is that when these metals are hot and liquid, they react with water to make H2 and heat which makes a loud explosion that makes people uncomfortable. That said, I hope we use elements other than Li for stationary batteries.
Any updates after one year?
Thanks!
Would a Sodium battery be useful for cold environments? If 20% of my total capacity was sodium and I park my car for a long period at a location with no power, would drawing on the Sodium battery until/to the lithium based battery is warm be a practical solution. I don't necessarily need a 500+km car, but I do need a vehicle that can take me 150km, sit in a snow bank, then get me home (300km with a deep cooling mid trip).
Indeed, cold-temperature performance is vital, as shown by the recent (late Jan 2023) coldwave that hit much of the USA, dropping the temperature to -22F where I live. LiIon can't function at all in this temperature. If NaIon can, that would be a big plus. Until the low-temperature problem is solved, electric cars are not suitable for for a large portion of the world.
CATL sodium ion battery has an energy density of 160Wh/kg. It can be charged very quickly but it can't retain its charge well at r.t.p. and is best operate in very cold condition. To overcome this shortcomings, CATL suggest using Li-ion and Na-ion combo.
How do I purchase CATL?
so which stock should ibuy?
When will we be getting rechargable aluminium air, and potassium batteries
They are! You must change the electrolyte and you can recharge about 10 cycles until drops the capacity the alluminium air battery
What of the glass battery?
Energy density of Lithium ion is 120-260 Wh/Kg.
For sodium ion it is 75-150 Wh/Kg.
So in terms of energy density it's not really better.
Because of the potential cost savings and potential for more recharge cycles this sounds like it has the potential to be better than lithium for storing renewable energy for the grid.
Sodium Ion battery will only come into play when Lithium got too expensive.
As explained in the video, not all applicants require high energy density.
Grid storage, recharging stations, UPS, require acceptable cost per function, that can be provided by alternative means as Na-ion.
Better for stationary applications I'd say. For cars, halving the range might be a deal breaker.
Wh/kg = specific energy
Wh/l = energy density
These have been used over the past decades. 🤓
Also. Li-ion will go over 400Wh/kg when going solid. The liquid electrolyte is quite heavy actually. Also solid cells allow going to next level from BYD Blade to bi-polar cells which have no traditional current collecting mechanics. No foils. That saves also plenty of weight. Directly and indirectly. Solid LFP-graphite cells are going to level plenty of this competiton as there is already huge amount of experience from millions of units in the field. All new technologies have big risks embedded as there is no mind to build billions of units and only then find out what was done wrong. Such approach will get close to zero investments.
Does it flame on when punctured as well?
Afaik no, which is another great advantage.