Utterly agree that there's a need for terminology and classification, but calling the "level X" does an overload with "Level 1" / "Level 2" AC charging. Maybe we want to call those Class I, II, III or Tier A, B, C, or something instead.
Your videos are always so thought provoking. I agree with all of your observations and opinions here. One note, regarding the lounge on the Kettlemen site. Originally I believe this was intended to be a perk to Tesla owners but the company has moved away from exclusivity like this lounge. It has always been under utilized when I've been there. There's plenty of seating, wifi, vending machines, nice restroom facilities, and a barista ready for orders, but very few people using it. I agree with your comment that the better option would be to lease the building out and let them put more features inside and open it up. Tesla owners would still benefit most, due to the chargers, but revenue would be higher and Tesla would benefit and offset the cost.
This level 4 will never be the majority of the sites. If I had a site with plenty of parking and another way to generate revenue I definitley would utilize an underused asset. Case in point the Denny's restaurant in Fredonia NY where they installed 12 superchargers with majic jacks and attracted a lot more business. They already have the paved area and the space why not use it? They now have the basics needed for high use site now they can add a solar cover and batteries to be able to use the off peak rates to lower their costs and generate a good return,with satisfied customers.
I like your method to identify the different types of charging providers. I would label them as "type" (Type1, Type 2) rather than "level". This is to prevent confusion between the service they provide and speed of the charging.
We had the problem you talked about with EVgo and Walmart . They originally were installed in 2016 and ev go told me that walmart told them to take them out .the new delta units are being installed in non wal mart locations. We only have 1 ea location in a city of 900,000.
Eric, I think the Kettleman installation - with lounge - was a sort of market test - will people use their store as a coffee shop/lounge during a 30 or so minute stop to charge? This concept then turned into the forecourt installs that have shown up in the UK, and if that concept takes off that idea may lead to a sort of larger rural fueling station (EV dealership/service?) property which may also have nearby solar and/or wind power plus battery storage to minimize/eliminate the demand charges on the grid. Hopefully the charger hardware makers can turn their products into a reliable commodity that anyone can buy as a part of building out their future filling stations. We have a McDonalds in Toledo, OH which is planning on installing 4 CCS chargers at some near future point - close to 2 freeways. Tesla now has a model with the CCS integrated, so could build out new stations which will accept both plug standards, including trailers, and perhaps high power variants for buses and trucks. They’ve got high power battery packs in the works from China and perhaps Mexico, and solar is already in their house too. If the other providers don’t stay engaged with connectivity and hardware designs that require less repairs, a Tesla monopoly on charging stations could take hold?
The Kettleman City site isn't an original concept, of course. It's essentially just a gas station with EV chargers, but Tesla was the first charging provider to put that much capital into owning and operating their own site. An argument could be made that they were the only provider that could justify the expense because they were the only one with enough site traffic to make it viable, but that's why I would also budget it as a marketing expense for Tesla corporate. Either way, though, I do think it's going to be something of a peek into future charging infrastructure, and we're already seeing announcements from the likes of 7-Eleven and Walmart, which would put them into that Class (probably better than "Level") 3 to 4 charging provider. In fact, in 10 years, I expect a strong majority of public DC fast charging sites to be located at one of three business types: convenience stores/travel plazas, fast food restaurants, and grocery stores. In addition, I expect a majority of those charging sites to be owned and operated by the host business. For example, the GM-funded EVgo-Pilot plan is under EVgo's "eXtend" program. What that means is that EVgo is stepping back to the Class 1 provider level while Pilot/Flying J actually own the charging hardware on their site. As for a Tesla monopoly on charging, I find that unlikely. We're probably experiencing peak Tesla at this point, both in terms of vehicle market share and DC charging share. The moment charging in particular becomes profitable, Tesla's lead will get swallowed up because (as I noted in this video), real estate is what really matters. Most of the prospective charging providers already own their own real estate, and that gives them a huge lead.
@@newscoulomb3705 - reduced Tesla market share, yes, but volume? If they put the CCS “magic” plugs at most of their SC locations, I’d think they will draw a big CCS following, if the price of the charge doesn’t get ridiculous. It would require a big draw - or a long cue - to pull people away from a charger that’s virtually guaranteed to run when you show up. Hopefully we’ll see installs from Tesla and CCS providers, enough to make people comfortable to travel in EVs.
@@dennislyon5412 I need to share my thoughts on my Magic Dock experience, but based on it, V3 Magic Dock sites won't be competitive, even if Tesla lowers the price. The V4 Superchargers would be more compelling, but Tesla has to start building them in North America first. At that point, they are playing catch up.
Very good video and I like your classification system. Level 1 providers really do depend on a good site host for reliable charging. You can see that with a lot of VW settlement and grant funding individual site hosts are taking a whole lot of time to put anything on site because they have to purchase everything themselves. Level 2 and above providers (usually) move much quicker in the install process and are more reliable overall. A rural electric utility (Kit Carson Electric Co-op in Northern New Mexico) is buying a bunch of Enel X JuicePump DC fast chargers, which are just branded Tritium Veefil RT50s, and they are managing the rollout horribly. The chargers are not user friendly and are hard to activate and they're charging gouging prices. This is exactly how *not* to rollout a DC fast charging network. I think Tesla didn't want to sublease space to keep it upper class and exclusive but it is a very good idea for L4 public charging providers. You are starting to see that at some charging sites in Europe.
Thanks! Yes, I have mixed feelings about what I've seen from Enel X. I've grown to really dislike the Tritium RT50 units as well, and incompatibility issues with the newer Tritium units are an issue. I'm trying to stay positive and openminded about Tritium, though, because a lot of providers (Level 1 or 2 as you noted) are going with them. With the Tesla site, I totally understand the branding concern; however, whether they like it or not, their brand is also associated with the businesses that their other site hosts lease to. For the most part, Tesla has leased site access at higher end businesses, but to me, that's also counterproductive for their stated goal of "going mainstream."
As far as your point on lease agreements. Most competent companies will do multiyear lease agreements (10-15yr) with multiple extension like (3) 5yr extension options with all the verbiage needed to protect them. I would bet most of the charging providers who've been effected by lease issues weren't ready to enter into such agreements and didn't have the knowledge to see all the angles. Charging locations need anchor stores period. In my opinion if you're a company in business or starting a charging network and you're not partnered with anchor store location you're doomed to fail. Except Tesla, Once they open their network fully the rest are screwed anyway. Keep up the great videos!!
Love the concept to distinguish the different CPO business models, which are often confusing for newcomers. I'd avoid the "level" nomenclature, though, given the existing use to delineate different levels of charging power. Perhaps take a leaf from the logistics world, where there are tiers based on how integrated the system is (1PL through 4PL) and the amount of ownership starts at the first tier (e.g. 1st Party Charging Provider), decreasing down to the fourth or fifth tier. Thought-provoking stuff, as always, cheers!
Thanks, Steve! Yes, it really is a "Service Level" that we're discussing, though that's probably not the best choice when we already use levels to describe charging speed.
Lease agreements I think are about to become a big issue for EA now that Walmart has announced that they want to start their own charging network. They’re not going to want competition on their own property. For the “level 4” charging sites, unless you’re talking about businesses that decide start their own charging networks on the land they already own (like McDonalds or Walmart), it’s going to incentivize building the massive 20+ charging stalls that you hate. If a company is going to invest in the real estate and all of the additional expenses that come along with that, they’re going to try and maximize the use of that property. Buying a dozen plots of land all over town to install a few chargers at each site doesn’t make sense in that scenario. It makes more financial sense to buy one bigger plot of land and put in 20+ chargers.
The announcement by Walmart doesn't sound like they are going to push any other charging providers out. Keep in mind, for Walmart, they are just trying to get people in the door, but if EA's reputation and reliability make them a liability in terms of wooing EV drivers, having more chargers onsite that Walmart owns and manages can still draw those potential customers in. It's no different than running vending machines out front but still also selling cold drinks in the store. As for my disliking the 20+ stall sites, I never said that. I said the 40 to 50+ stall sites are unnecessary. Currently, anything over ~12 stalls per site runs into diminishing returns, and while coverage is at its current state, it's better to have two 12-stall sites than one 24-stall site. That being said, I think you also need to consider the size of the typical convenience store lot off of a freeway. Most gas stations only have room for 8 to 12 pumps with maybe another half dozen parking stalls. So 20 charging stalls is really the upper limit of what most of those properties could support while still maintaining high-margin services on site. Sure, Tesla managed to cram 40 stalls into their original Kettleman City site (a former fast food location with a larger than average parking lot), but that location is mostly unusable for any large format vehicle or EV that's towing a trailer. To provide reasonable access to chargers, parking, on-site services, and navigating the lot, even wholly owned sites aren't likely to feature more than 16 to 20 DC charging stalls.
I have heard many times that gas stations do not make money on fuel sales but on high markup of food and drinks. I don’t really know, but it seems like eVs offer a much bigger opportunity since they have you captured as a potential customer for at least 15 min.
While ChargePoint builds their hardware I thought they typically sell it local providers. ChargePoint also handles the billing and sometimes the maintenance. We have lots of ChargePoint public charging around here and they’re mostly owned by local public utilities or Government entities.
Yes, these real estate companies need to just build the framework for leasing their facilities for the convenience stores, restuarants, coffee shops etc. The real money isn't really made in "selling gas", it is in the experience and sales around that loss leader used to get people in your door. Gas station operators will tell you that. They make their money in the store, car wash, and additional services. That is what is missing in the EV charging space.
Hey, I noticed Chevy is enabling climate preconditioning via the Chevy app. In the "view more" section of the app, under "flash lights" "Stop lights", there are now "Driver" and "Climate" buttons. Its not working for me here in Canada yet, but with all things EV, America seems to get first dibs. Can you do a review of those settings, that would be assume.
Interesting. They've had the option to start climate control recently for a while now, but it only defaulted to whatever the previous settings were. Being able to actually adjust it directly through the app is huge (maybe more importantly is seeing the current cabin temperature/conditions in real time).
I think ownership of charging sites is imperative if the EV road trip experience is going to improve. Some of the current locations at busy retail sites are built for conflict between shoppers, gassers and EV drivers dealing with chargers of inconsistent reliability. Second best would be co-located at established travel centers with all their traveler friendly amenities.
Sure, that might be a factor, but I don't think that trumps owning your own site, especially because the property is also an asset that can be leveraged.
I don't think the level should be used. It's already in use for the type of chargers. Maybe Tier 1, 2 and 3 should be used. I agree with what you are saying. But not the term.
Tesla needs to go to your level 4. Ultimately that's the only way to get solar panel covers, pull through stations, 24/7 bathrooms etc. Time to make SC stations themselves less of an afterthought.
Nice video, and certainly something to think about. I think the problem with EA and EVgo is that they don't take ownership of the whole enchilada. There are too many moving parts and nobody takes ownership. That's why they're unreliable, at least in the areas I travel. FWIW, Kyle Connor seems to have taken a negative attitude about the public CCS charging network, perhaps in a bid to shame the providers into taking ownership. Regarding Tesla, I'm surprised they haven't opened more "level 4" sites since they're all about eliminating the middleman.
Very thoughtful and informative video. I like the categorization of charging providers into the various types or levels. I predict the "level 4" will become more popular with time, as more the cars on the road are EVs. Owning the sites and leasing to shops and restaurants sounds lucrative, like the airport business model.
I think that Walmart is going to be that Level 4 that you are talking about. They just announced that they're going to install EV chargers at thousands of their stores. They're going to kick Electrify America to the curb.
all sites should be owned and operated. its the only long term solution, its why i love the us dot plan for their chargers, itll all be on land they own.
Utterly agree that there's a need for terminology and classification, but calling the "level X" does an overload with "Level 1" / "Level 2" AC charging. Maybe we want to call those Class I, II, III or Tier A, B, C, or something instead.
Just came to say the same thing
Maybe we need a sign similar to gas stations prices with a price and reliability on it, 0-10.
@@firstbigbarney *grin* By the time you've gotten to where you can see the sign, you're often pretty committed.
Great points in this video Eric! Thanks for posting.
Your videos are always so thought provoking. I agree with all of your observations and opinions here.
One note, regarding the lounge on the Kettlemen site. Originally I believe this was intended to be a perk to Tesla owners but the company has moved away from exclusivity like this lounge. It has always been under utilized when I've been there. There's plenty of seating, wifi, vending machines, nice restroom facilities, and a barista ready for orders, but very few people using it. I agree with your comment that the better option would be to lease the building out and let them put more features inside and open it up. Tesla owners would still benefit most, due to the chargers, but revenue would be higher and Tesla would benefit and offset the cost.
This level 4 will never be the majority of the sites.
If I had a site with plenty of parking and another way to generate revenue I
definitley would utilize an underused asset.
Case in point the Denny's restaurant in Fredonia NY where they installed
12 superchargers with majic jacks and attracted a lot more business.
They already have the paved area and the space why not use it?
They now have the basics needed for high use site now they can add a solar
cover and batteries to be able to use the off peak rates to lower their costs
and generate a good return,with satisfied customers.
I like your method to identify the different types of charging providers. I would label them as "type" (Type1, Type 2) rather than "level". This is to prevent confusion between the service they provide and speed of the charging.
We had the problem you talked about with EVgo and Walmart . They originally were installed in 2016 and ev go told me that walmart told them to take them out .the new delta units are being installed in non wal mart locations. We only have 1 ea location in a city of 900,000.
Eric, I think the Kettleman installation - with lounge - was a sort of market test - will people use their store as a coffee shop/lounge during a 30 or so minute stop to charge? This concept then turned into the forecourt installs that have shown up in the UK, and if that concept takes off that idea may lead to a sort of larger rural fueling station (EV dealership/service?) property which may also have nearby solar and/or wind power plus battery storage to minimize/eliminate the demand charges on the grid. Hopefully the charger hardware makers can turn their products into a reliable commodity that anyone can buy as a part of building out their future filling stations. We have a McDonalds in Toledo, OH which is planning on installing 4 CCS chargers at some near future point - close to 2 freeways. Tesla now has a model with the CCS integrated, so could build out new stations which will accept both plug standards, including trailers, and perhaps high power variants for buses and trucks. They’ve got high power battery packs in the works from China and perhaps Mexico, and solar is already in their house too. If the other providers don’t stay engaged with connectivity and hardware designs that require less repairs, a Tesla monopoly on charging stations could take hold?
The Kettleman City site isn't an original concept, of course. It's essentially just a gas station with EV chargers, but Tesla was the first charging provider to put that much capital into owning and operating their own site. An argument could be made that they were the only provider that could justify the expense because they were the only one with enough site traffic to make it viable, but that's why I would also budget it as a marketing expense for Tesla corporate.
Either way, though, I do think it's going to be something of a peek into future charging infrastructure, and we're already seeing announcements from the likes of 7-Eleven and Walmart, which would put them into that Class (probably better than "Level") 3 to 4 charging provider.
In fact, in 10 years, I expect a strong majority of public DC fast charging sites to be located at one of three business types: convenience stores/travel plazas, fast food restaurants, and grocery stores. In addition, I expect a majority of those charging sites to be owned and operated by the host business. For example, the GM-funded EVgo-Pilot plan is under EVgo's "eXtend" program. What that means is that EVgo is stepping back to the Class 1 provider level while Pilot/Flying J actually own the charging hardware on their site.
As for a Tesla monopoly on charging, I find that unlikely. We're probably experiencing peak Tesla at this point, both in terms of vehicle market share and DC charging share. The moment charging in particular becomes profitable, Tesla's lead will get swallowed up because (as I noted in this video), real estate is what really matters. Most of the prospective charging providers already own their own real estate, and that gives them a huge lead.
@@newscoulomb3705 - reduced Tesla market share, yes, but volume? If they put the CCS “magic” plugs at most of their SC locations, I’d think they will draw a big CCS following, if the price of the charge doesn’t get ridiculous. It would require a big draw - or a long cue - to pull people away from a charger that’s virtually guaranteed to run when you show up. Hopefully we’ll see installs from Tesla and CCS providers, enough to make people comfortable to travel in EVs.
@@dennislyon5412 I need to share my thoughts on my Magic Dock experience, but based on it, V3 Magic Dock sites won't be competitive, even if Tesla lowers the price. The V4 Superchargers would be more compelling, but Tesla has to start building them in North America first. At that point, they are playing catch up.
@@newscoulomb3705 - I can hardly wait to hear your experience using Magic Dock, and the future that it may or may not present to CCS users.
Good insight into what the industry should be doing to move forward .
Very good video and I like your classification system. Level 1 providers really do depend on a good site host for reliable charging. You can see that with a lot of VW settlement and grant funding individual site hosts are taking a whole lot of time to put anything on site because they have to purchase everything themselves. Level 2 and above providers (usually) move much quicker in the install process and are more reliable overall.
A rural electric utility (Kit Carson Electric Co-op in Northern New Mexico) is buying a bunch of Enel X JuicePump DC fast chargers, which are just branded Tritium Veefil RT50s, and they are managing the rollout horribly. The chargers are not user friendly and are hard to activate and they're charging gouging prices. This is exactly how *not* to rollout a DC fast charging network.
I think Tesla didn't want to sublease space to keep it upper class and exclusive but it is a very good idea for L4 public charging providers. You are starting to see that at some charging sites in Europe.
Thanks! Yes, I have mixed feelings about what I've seen from Enel X. I've grown to really dislike the Tritium RT50 units as well, and incompatibility issues with the newer Tritium units are an issue. I'm trying to stay positive and openminded about Tritium, though, because a lot of providers (Level 1 or 2 as you noted) are going with them.
With the Tesla site, I totally understand the branding concern; however, whether they like it or not, their brand is also associated with the businesses that their other site hosts lease to. For the most part, Tesla has leased site access at higher end businesses, but to me, that's also counterproductive for their stated goal of "going mainstream."
As far as your point on lease agreements. Most competent companies will do multiyear lease agreements (10-15yr) with multiple extension like (3) 5yr extension options with all the verbiage needed to protect them. I would bet most of the charging providers who've been effected by lease issues weren't ready to enter into such agreements and didn't have the knowledge to see all the angles. Charging locations need anchor stores period. In my opinion if you're a company in business or starting a charging network and you're not partnered with anchor store location you're doomed to fail. Except Tesla, Once they open their network fully the rest are screwed anyway.
Keep up the great videos!!
Love the concept to distinguish the different CPO business models, which are often confusing for newcomers.
I'd avoid the "level" nomenclature, though, given the existing use to delineate different levels of charging power. Perhaps take a leaf from the logistics world, where there are tiers based on how integrated the system is (1PL through 4PL) and the amount of ownership starts at the first tier (e.g. 1st Party Charging Provider), decreasing down to the fourth or fifth tier.
Thought-provoking stuff, as always, cheers!
Thanks, Steve! Yes, it really is a "Service Level" that we're discussing, though that's probably not the best choice when we already use levels to describe charging speed.
Lease agreements I think are about to become a big issue for EA now that Walmart has announced that they want to start their own charging network. They’re not going to want competition on their own property.
For the “level 4” charging sites, unless you’re talking about businesses that decide start their own charging networks on the land they already own (like McDonalds or Walmart), it’s going to incentivize building the massive 20+ charging stalls that you hate. If a company is going to invest in the real estate and all of the additional expenses that come along with that, they’re going to try and maximize the use of that property. Buying a dozen plots of land all over town to install a few chargers at each site doesn’t make sense in that scenario. It makes more financial sense to buy one bigger plot of land and put in 20+ chargers.
The announcement by Walmart doesn't sound like they are going to push any other charging providers out. Keep in mind, for Walmart, they are just trying to get people in the door, but if EA's reputation and reliability make them a liability in terms of wooing EV drivers, having more chargers onsite that Walmart owns and manages can still draw those potential customers in. It's no different than running vending machines out front but still also selling cold drinks in the store.
As for my disliking the 20+ stall sites, I never said that. I said the 40 to 50+ stall sites are unnecessary. Currently, anything over ~12 stalls per site runs into diminishing returns, and while coverage is at its current state, it's better to have two 12-stall sites than one 24-stall site.
That being said, I think you also need to consider the size of the typical convenience store lot off of a freeway. Most gas stations only have room for 8 to 12 pumps with maybe another half dozen parking stalls. So 20 charging stalls is really the upper limit of what most of those properties could support while still maintaining high-margin services on site.
Sure, Tesla managed to cram 40 stalls into their original Kettleman City site (a former fast food location with a larger than average parking lot), but that location is mostly unusable for any large format vehicle or EV that's towing a trailer. To provide reasonable access to chargers, parking, on-site services, and navigating the lot, even wholly owned sites aren't likely to feature more than 16 to 20 DC charging stalls.
I agree
I have heard many times that gas stations do not make money on fuel sales but on high markup of food and drinks. I don’t really know, but it seems like eVs offer a much bigger opportunity since they have you captured as a potential customer for at least 15 min.
While ChargePoint builds their hardware I thought they typically sell it local providers. ChargePoint also handles the billing and sometimes the maintenance. We have lots of ChargePoint public charging around here and they’re mostly owned by local public utilities or Government entities.
Not a lot but they do manage some sites that are not owned by "the public".
Yes, these real estate companies need to just build the framework for leasing their facilities for the convenience stores, restuarants, coffee shops etc. The real money isn't really made in "selling gas", it is in the experience and sales around that loss leader used to get people in your door. Gas station operators will tell you that. They make their money in the store, car wash, and additional services. That is what is missing in the EV charging space.
Hey, I noticed Chevy is enabling climate preconditioning via the Chevy app. In the "view more" section of the app, under "flash lights" "Stop lights", there are now "Driver" and "Climate" buttons. Its not working for me here in Canada yet, but with all things EV, America seems to get first dibs. Can you do a review of those settings, that would be assume.
Interesting. They've had the option to start climate control recently for a while now, but it only defaulted to whatever the previous settings were. Being able to actually adjust it directly through the app is huge (maybe more importantly is seeing the current cabin temperature/conditions in real time).
I think ownership of charging sites is imperative if the EV road trip experience is going to improve. Some of the current locations at busy retail sites are built for conflict between shoppers, gassers and EV drivers dealing with chargers of inconsistent reliability. Second best would be co-located at established travel centers with all their traveler friendly amenities.
I’m thinking more tax advantages with leasing a property. I’m no accountant but that might be an advantage.
Sure, that might be a factor, but I don't think that trumps owning your own site, especially because the property is also an asset that can be leveraged.
I don't think the level should be used. It's already in use for the type of chargers. Maybe Tier 1, 2 and 3 should be used. I agree with what you are saying. But not the term.
Tesla needs to go to your level 4. Ultimately that's the only way to get solar panel covers, pull through stations, 24/7 bathrooms etc. Time to make SC stations themselves less of an afterthought.
Nice video, and certainly something to think about.
I think the problem with EA and EVgo is that they don't take ownership of the whole enchilada. There are too many moving parts and nobody takes ownership. That's why they're unreliable, at least in the areas I travel. FWIW, Kyle Connor seems to have taken a negative attitude about the public CCS charging network, perhaps in a bid to shame the providers into taking ownership.
Regarding Tesla, I'm surprised they haven't opened more "level 4" sites since they're all about eliminating the middleman.
Very thoughtful and informative video. I like the categorization of charging providers into the various types or levels. I predict the "level 4" will become more popular with time, as more the cars on the road are EVs. Owning the sites and leasing to shops and restaurants sounds lucrative, like the airport business model.
I think that Walmart is going to be that Level 4 that you are talking about. They just announced that they're going to install EV chargers at thousands of their stores. They're going to kick Electrify America to the curb.
all sites should be owned and operated. its the only long term solution, its why i love the us dot plan for their chargers, itll all be on land they own.