I'm listening to Mike Heiser probably for 5 years or so. He has very solid teachings. I was amazed he was not attacked by the "TH-cam teachers" earlier. It is expected, all the dirt will attack anything that has a light... It is funny, in this Video the last part about the "lying prophets" is right on the money...
I've been listening to him for about 8 to 10 years now. It seriously revolutionizes your comprehension of not only the Biblical Texts, but the heavenly realm and the mind of God.
@@JamesMarshallimagesofgrace I've brought alot of his teachings to church groups which was always met with some confusion and resistance. The more accepting crowd has always been old friends that stumbled into New Age Movements, Aliens, and occultic rooted movements like Zeitgeists. I've been able to lead many of them BACK to Christ through Michael Heiser's work. People in Occultic movements just think more spiritually than 90% of modern Christian denominations and they are way easier to reach and bring back than Christians sitting under a false teacher or doctrine.
Dr. Heiser is using his pedigree and "God the Son/two powers" theology to teach something about Psalm 82 that is completely unfounded in Scripture. In John 10, Jesus does not agree with Dr. Heiser's "interpretations" and blatant misuse of Scripture (like Psalm 89 for example). No, Heiser is incorrect and I don't care how many languages he speaks. There is a clear message that Jesus is giving in John 10 that the average lay reader can clearly understand.
@gimel77 wrong. But check out fallen by tim chaffey, he spends a few chapters on both the sethite and royalty views and explains in detail why they fail
@@onecowstampede9140 I don't know what those are, I can just read and understand the clear meaning of Psalm 82 together with how Jesus uses it in John 10. I don't need a PhD in Semitic languages for that.
@@gimel77 classic exegetical fallacy. Check out d a carsons book on exactly why that is. Everyone finds something different that is "clear to them" wether its cessationist/continuationist- Calvinist/arminian- theistic evolutionist or young earth creationist.. literally every doctrine is split by whats "crystal clear" to every stripe of exegete- which is why we factor in historic and grammatical norms from contemporary literature especially for the rare words where theories abound. The "clear meaning" of sons of God- is sons of God. Benai Elohim= direct creation of. Its the catch all for all heavenly beings, holy ones, watchers- and its said- in terms of human imagers- only of Adam and Eve and then of the new born creation we have the potential to become in Jesus Christ. Check out fallen- its very generous with the competing theories you'll get more ammo than "trust me bro"
James White very carefully chose the translation to use for this. One that erroneously translates the second occurrence of elohim in verse one as "judges".
@@defendchrist2891 Here's Exodus 7:1 1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. Doesn't mean that Moses is a god. Exodus 21:6 6then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever. Other translations use "judges" for elohim here, but the ESV for example uses God. There is no reason to use "judges" because this is an act done before God. Exodus 22:7-8 (ESV) 7“If a man gives to his neighbor money or goods to keep safe, and it is stolen from the man’s house, then, if the thief is found, he shall pay double. 8If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor’s property. Again, other translations put "judges" in verse 8 instead of God. The judges in Israel are appointed before God and are meant to represent God, but they are not "gods". It is God (YHWH) who judges and earthly judges are put in position to represent this judgment, according God's law.
The correct translation comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls. White is reading from the NASB which is a fine translation, just not fully up to date. ESV is the current best for word accuracy.
@@CloudofGlory, unfortunately, I've come to expect that from 5-point Calvinists. Their theology is such that they suffer from severe cognitive dissonance and find it necessary to bring everyone to their point of view, despite its obvious flaws.
I sense white knows his argument is weak and he is misrepresenting the passage by his condescending ridiculous facial expressions and demeaning tone in his voice. That's what some people do to manipulate to overcompensate for a weak argument.
Read Psalm 82 and then read John 10. The meaning is clear. You don't need Dr. Heiser with his PhD to completely convolute the clear meaning of what Jesus is saying.
@@gimel77 now that is hilarious. If one reads psalm 82 how does one arrive at the interpretation being in John 10 and then this person says these are Jesus's words lol. Yeah, you know what you're talking about. Like whoever wrote the gospel of John is really quoting jesus and true historical facts. For some reason this dude thinks he has the correct interpretation and everyone else is wrong lol welcome to the apologetics world where legitimate scholarship and rational thinking is mocked at
@@michaelglass9604 White does that all the time. That's why serious scholars don't even deal with him generally speaking. Sometimes when pressed because the dude won't shut up they go ahead and do a debate and make him look like a fool. Ehrman spanked him badly on TC and White is still bitching about it YEARS later. Apologists like him are like MMA fighters who always have an excuse to give when they're on the losing end.
Why are calvinists soooooo fearful of their doctrines? They all need to grow up into all things! At least they could keep silent until they find the truth and stop trying to keep the Church so ignorant about letting the Word Of God simply say what it says! Just following up on references actually opens up a whole new concept to believers who have been afraid to question anything spiritual. Dr. Heiser has taught us all that our questions can and should be answered, and he taught us how to do it for ourselves without just passively accepting just whatever our denomination swears to. This includes accepting even whatever he says. Some are very thankful for that alone!
@@tomtemple69 That is rude and you know it. While user's comment is not very precise, it does not call for you to grab a mostly unanswerable pair of questions and throw them out like there is o correct understanding. If you understand the questions you asked, then you will know the answer. It does take a fair amount of background research and enough faith to allow a preponderance of evidence to convince, either of which you may lack.
@tomtemple69 Actually, if you get technical, the original comment was that Heiser taught US all that our questions could & should be answered 😉 But he also taught that not all questions had a clear defined answer - which we can see in his discussions on end times. He was a BIG proponent of teaching you how to study your Bible yourself & not being afraid of the text, but to be curious & dig deeper. And with that he also developed a large amazing community that enjoys coming alongside each other to help in expounding on topics when they are struggling. It is a beautiful thing to see the body of Christ helping each other in this loving manner. I am curious if your original questions are sincere? Or were you hoping to be antagonistic to the original poster?
God took on human flesh through Mary, was born Jesus of Nazareth, which was in name a reference to Joshua, who led the Israelites to the promised land after Moses. Jesus, after living a sinless life began teaching about the His coming kingdom, and how we will live as citizens in it, he preached against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, he preached about upholding the heart of the law rather than just the letter, and finally he began to tell his disciples that he was going to die and then raise which they could not comprehend. When the time was right and he had finished His earthly ministry, he went to Jerusalem, claimed He was God, and was charged with blasphemy. The Jews handed him over to the civil authorities accusing him of saying he was essentially above the Roman emperor, and was executed by the Romans for insurrection/rebellion. In so doing, he became the final sacrificial lamb for the sins of not only the Jews, but the whole world. The Bible says “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus”. Because sin ends in death, and death must atone for the sins of man, Jesus Christ THE man was able to die that death on behalf of ALL or ANY man. So now, we are promised that even though we must still suffer physical death, we will pass into new and eternal life in Him, and on the last day, or when history is complete, we will be raised again, bodily, to eternal life on remade world. All this was accomplished while God was still on His throne in heaven, and while the Holy Spirit was at work. Matt. 3:16, 17, 26:64. That is how God died on a cross TL;DR God was born as a man, lived a sinless life, was accused of blasphemy by the religious elite for calling himself God, was crucified, died, buried, then rose from the dead on the third day. He did that, and he was in heaven.
I don’t know him but I think he means well. He might be understandably concerned with the implications of the Bible saying there are many gods, which suggests that monotheism means something a little different than we may think. My view is that the Bible is a mysterious book with obvious truths. The obvious truth is the sin problem and the need for Jesus to take on himself our sins so all who believe can be in right standing with God. The mysteries however, which are not salvation issues, are les obvious and only revealed by God as he wills.
@@InnovativeSaint biblical monotheism is still intact. The word elohim means divine or spiritual being all the time in scripture. Every single time. “god” isn’t a name either. That’s where we get all worked up. We’ve just looked past the claims because we either don’t understand it or we don’t want to. White is a Calvinist too, so that may be part of it.
James is simply being James. Snake! He has no idea what the scholars are saying anyway on anything biblical. Heck, he even gets Calvin wrong and misquotes him intentionally. Snake!
After a year of study on this topic in seminary, I must agree with Heiser but also clarify the meaning of 'elohim'. The word correctly means either, "Resident of the Spiritual realm" or more succinctly, "Spiritual being". It does not mean "God" or "god". The dead sea scrolls cleared this up for us. Many do not like this because they feel it diminishes God by adding other 'gods'. To the contrary, this clarified understanding makes the one God even more unique and powerful. Try reading it with the correct wording in place of the word Elohim. You will be very surprised how it begins to instantly make many passages understandable. Currently the ESV is the only translation that has acknowledged the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) and made the changes to correct indicated passages.
PANADERIA TECNICA CON SERGIO JR Amen. We all see through a glass dimly it seems. But I do love all the mystery of the Bible and that day when we enter into eternity with the Lord Christ Jesus all these became crystal clear
@@drewjeers815 , There is no such thing as a person, denomination or Church that has all the correct answers. Each and every person living will have a different understanding of scripture because we all have grown up differently. The amazing thing is that the Bible is so comprehensive that no matter your personal circumstances it still applies to everyone. There are correct and incorrect interpretations, but once those are understood, there is a nearly infinite number of valid applications of the understanding. That's where most people think they see differences in dogma when it's only the application of it.
This is why we need spiritual discernment, which comes from asking God, seeking to understand his ways through His Word revealed by His Spirit, spending time with him, asking him to help us turn from sin. This is how we can know what the Spirit tells us versus what the devil or our own mind tells us.
Here’s the rub as i see it. Augustinian/Calvinistic theology that is deterministic. Free will as commonly understood, is challenged by the Psalms 82 worldview. Free will elohim ? How could this be? YHWH determines all thoughts and actions of all created beings. Spiritual or physical. To save the theology requires denial of Academic understanding that Heiser presents. Prove me wrong.
While Heiser & White may disagree on this issue it does not make them enemies. They both love Christ first and foremost and will one day be able to discuss it together with way more knowledge than either currently has on earth. I wouldn't mind sitting in on that.
So the judges, who are men, have upset God, so he curses them to die like men, which they would already do since they were already been men? Sorry bro, they weren't judges.
I appreciate James he's a good brother to all called Christian. Ok you don't have to agree with him here but man he is a warrior for the faith. I am one who is glad God has placed him on our side.
Well said. Good men and women who mean well can get it wrong sometimes, when it comes to the mysteries of scripture. The Bible is full of mysteries but no christian should be confused as to the God we serve and his only begotten son Jesus Christ.
If a teacher holds a worldview that ignores a supernatural realm, he is preaching a gospel of intellect. No one is saved by intellect alone. Not one person in scripture is saved by an intellectual assent. Job, David, Paul, the Jerusalem 3,000, etc. It is by experience, or a life worshipping His presence.
@@fj2567I agree. I find one is, "wow, I've never seen that before"..the other, " oh boy, here we go again. Doesn't see sound right, doesn't feel right. Better study up on that one so I can refute that intelligently"
@@brettmathews3191 If by "I've never seen that before" you're referring to Heisner, that's because his teaching on Psalm 82 is so blatantly off the wall that it goes against the clear meaning of the text AND Jesus' use and interpretation of it in John 10.
@@gimel77 "Clear meaning" ??? I see that "pious" term quite often. Unfortunately most "clear meaning" as interpreted is usually the personal interpretation of some person without clear insight/3D into the backstory and doesn't have the grasp how the NT is an extension of the OT.
That passage does not talk about the judges duty being to "rescue the weak and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked" (Ps 82:4 NASB) Nor does that Deuteronomy passage say anything like "Vindicate the weak and and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute." (Ps 82:3 NASB). Those things are what the LORD God himself always has been doing in Israel, as their God and as the one true God. Example: 36For the LORD will vindicate His people and have compassion on His servants when He sees that their strength is gone and no one remains, slave or free. (Deut 32) He will not judge by what His eyes see, and He will not decide by what His ears hear, 4but with righteousness He will judge the poor, and with equity He will decide for the lowly of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and slay the wicked with the breath of His lips. Isaiah 11:3b-4 - this is a prophecy about Jesus
@@fraukeschmidt8364 Sorry? The entire point of the charge there is that judges should not show partiality in judgment and therefore distort justice for the weak, the orphans, and the widows. They should righteously uphold it. Hence why other passages, such as Isaiah 1:17, say to judges "obtain justice for the orphan", just as Psalm 82:3 says "vindicate the weak and the fatherless; do justice to the weak and destitute". And Psalm 82:1-2 is in strong parallel with the Deut passage I showed as well as Isaiah 3:14-15, which starts off the same exact way, "the Lord enters into judgment with the elders and leaders of His people, ...." (and then brings forth the rebuke concerning how they have mistreated the poor). Also, I'm not sure your argument was with "Those things are what the LORD God himself always has been doing in Israel, as their God and as the one true God." What is your point here? Was it that only the Lord does the task of "delivering the poor/needy/weak"? Because that's completely at odds with the witness of Scripture (Job 29:12;16-17, Proverbs 24:11). We are all called to this duty as servants of Christ, and judges are especially in a position to do this. So, what was your argument?
Evaluations are key to exegetical understanding, and knowledge acquired from such is only valid when the point of origin has been established for such. Thankfully those having the greatest impact on true "Biblical exposition" are those who have shed the "Institutionalized contemporary Church box." The religious leadership of "Jesus" day frequently met with this reply from "Jesus" concerning their interpretation's of "Divine Writing." "Jesus" told them. "Not so from the beginning." Brother "Heiser" was a ground breaker and unashamed of "The Word of God." "His" legacy will be written as a man that followed "The TEXT" at the cost of honor from religious intuition's.
@@directordissy3101 listen to the video 0:26, he says [Elohim] judges in the middle of [rulers] -> when reading the text he uses the original language in Hebrew for the first bracket, but when reading the second bracket he abandons the original language and use “judges”. This is very problematic. It seems to me he intentionally misleads people so people believe his interpretation of Psalm 82. In the original language, the second bracket is elohim.
@@directordissy3101 but even in NASB95, it uses “God” for the first bracket which James White reads “Elohim”. I really look up to James White but what he did is just very misleading: using Hebrew for the first bracket and switching to English for the second bracket when the original Hebrew does not favor his interpretation.
@@rizkylumempouw6047 James White is a good Greek teacher. He uses backwards compatibility to understand his Hebrew which is why is New Testament AND Old Testament theology is off. And its not just here
Sons of gods means angels… I the commentators being dishonest, because Job 1:6 it says sons of god, says it in genesis 6:4, Daniel 10 talks about the prince of Persia… those are all references to divine being…
heiser got his degree from the university of WISCONSIN. he was not a theologian. psalm 82 says "you will die like men" how can spirit beings die? the psalm was a sarcastic judgment on the leaders of the israelites. it's plain if you aren't a book of enoch loving pagan like heiser was
"You, who are men, will die like men" is a really retarded pronouncement as a judgement. As in, "and nothing happens" stupid. So then, if the psalm is about judgement, then either the beings being judged are men and God is giving nothing out as a punishment, which violates the attribute of being Just; or else the beings are _not_ men, and the pronouncement is a death-sentence to beings who would otherwise be immortal. You've reduced the argument to that: either God is stupid and unjust, or else the beings are not human and receiving an actual sentence.
_"How can spirit beings die?"_ …it's a death sentence that's being handed out. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
His words as God (Father and Son) . "You are gods" is used twice in scripture, once in Psalm 82 verse 6 and once in John 10 verse 34. This is a similarity because it is the words of God spoken through the prophet Asaph in Psalm 82 and then again said again by Jesus the son of God in John 10. Both accounts this is the "word" of God (Father and Son). The Jews, God was referred to as Yahweh in Hebrew. Another use in Hebrew is Elohim (God), Jesus name in Hebrew is Yeshua. God in Greek is "Theos". Psalm 82: 6 " I said, “You gods, And all of you children of the Most High. The word "gods" is lower case meaning elohim. I said, “You are gods>>>>>>God the Father "words" speaking through the prophet Asaph. Asaph a “seer” or prophet. The word of the Lord would come to prophets in the Old Testament and God would speak through the prophet. John 1 14 " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." God would speak the "Word" through a prophet like Asaph in Psalm 82, in the NT the "Word" was spoken by God incarnate in the flesh by Jesus in John 10. John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),>>>>>>Jesus the Son speaking as God in the flesh. Jesus repeats what the Fathers words "You are gods" from Psalm 82:6 that were spoken and written by Asaph the prophet. When the text says "You are gods" is directed to humans not angels or spiritual beings in both Psalm 82 and John 10, very clear. The "gods" (elohim) are Jewish officials that are in the position to rule and judge certain matters with in the nation of Israel, they are to represent the law and God. God instructing Moses certain men in Israel to be judges, rulers, or elders ("gods" or "elohim). A Divine Council, Congregation of the Mighty or the Great Assembly Exodus 18 25-26 And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens. 26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves. Psalm 82 with commentary Psalm 82 is also written Poetically by Asaph 1 God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty; (divine council, great assembly) He judges among the gods. (elohim>>>judges, rulers, and elders with in the Nation of Israel) Note: when God "stands" and" judges" this is by the spoken/written word of the prophet Asaph, because the word of the Lord would come to prophets in the OT.)
2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah 3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked. 5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable. ( Verses 2-5 Is a court setting, where the courts were intended as the place where the needy could find justice, but they were not fulfilling this responsibility. They are judging unjustly and are favoring the wicked, they are being questioned and scolded. These verses could also be applied to Pharisees in the time of Jesus, basically bad rulers/elders, not representing God or the law.)
6a I said, “You are gods, ((((Father's "words spoken and written by the prophet Asaph who wrote Psalm 82 ">>>>>Son's "words" addressing Pharisees who are Jewish rulers/elders a certain sect at the time of Jesus. John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken). Israel was made up of 12 tribes or 12 nations, the nation of Israel was given the law. Also in John 10 34-35 Jesus is claiming to be equal and is God when He said....'I said "You are gods". The “I said” is really no different then an “ I am” that is mentioned in the Gospel of John. There are 7 "I am" in the Gospel of John spoken by Jesus. Note: Looking back at verse Psalm 82 verse 1, since God "stands" this is the prophetic fulfillment with Jesus (God in the flesh) as the Son of God would literally stand before Jewish rulers/elders the Pharisees, since Psalm 82 is written by the prophet Asaph a seer. Jesus also stands before Pharisees in John 8 scolding them (saying they are of their father, the devil), scolding like in Psalm 82. John 8: 13 "The Pharisees therefore said to Him, You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.” John 8 42-44 "Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own for he is a liar and the father of it.")))) Verse 6b cont. And all of you are children of the Most High. (The children of the Most High are Israel, Jesus the Messiah is to come through them) 7 But you shall die like men, (referring to those bad elders, rulers and judges with High Authority, they favor the wicked and judge unjustly, they do not follow through with their responsibilities, duties, and do not represent God, these High Officials are just men, so they will die like men) And fall like one of the princes. (referring to earthly rulers or even angels, satan is the prince of the power of the air Ephesians 2:2, even Israel in Hebrew means prince of God )
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; (God is the supreme Judge) For You shall inherit all nations (God inherits the nations by Jesus the son, Jesus is the coming King)
Israel is not mentioned in the Psalm, so there is no indication to make this about the judges of Israel. Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (BSB) reads thus: 8When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when He divided the sons of man, He set the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. 9But the LORD’s portion is His people, Jacob His allotted inheritance. This refers to the dividing of the nation's after the rebellion at Babel. God left the various nation's under their "sons of God" (created heavenly beings), while he chose to create his own people through Abraham (whose wife was barren, but through God's promise bore Isaac), Isaac (whose wife was barren, but through God's promise and prophecy bore Jacob (Israel) and Esau). In Psalm 82 God sits in judgment over the heavenly beings (gods) that were put in charge of the nations. Because they rebelled against God and accepted worship (thereby becoming those nations "gods", e. g. Dagon), and did not vindicate or rescue the weak, fatherless, destitute and needy like God did with his people, that's why God condemns them to death, like men (though they are the "sons of the Most High"). Their destiny is in the lake of fire together with Satan. Ultimately, the nations and all the earth still belong to God. Therefore God will judge the earth "For it is You who posses all the nations."
@@fraukeschmidt8364 Did you even read the comment,????? What about John 10? Where in scripture were heavenly beings/angels given the law??? What about the prophet Asaph??? The sons of God in both OT and NT are not angels, the sons of God are in Adopted status not angelic status. Deuteronomy 32 has Nothing to do with Psalm 82 Yes Israel is mentioned in Psalm, look at Psalm 81, Asaph also wrote this as well 4 For this is a statute for Israel, A law of the God of Jacob. 5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony, When He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language I did not understand. No God is NOT sitting in judgment in Psalm 82 it says He stands verse 1 God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty; Heiser has so many people goofed up on his teaching on Psalm 82
Elohim is never used to describe men throughout scripture Jesus in the passage you’re referencing in John very clearly is telling the Jewish people about to stone Him that their own Torah categorize the supernatural, so they cannot simply dismiss His claim that He is doing the works of the unseen Yahweh. You will not find one instance of Elohims being used to refer to a body of Israelites in OT…it is always reserved for the unbodily.
@@davidinstronghold Here is more of an updated explanation. Heiser promoted a world view and a Jewish fable mind set in his explanation. I hold to a Christ mindset and more context, letting scripture define scripture. In you response you never addressed Asaph the prophet. Heiser was in error in his teaching, Jesus settles this in scripture long before Heiser. Israel are gods/elhim and the divine council. Jesus holds the answer of the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 in John 10. Israel are the "gods" in Psalm 82, the "gods" are human NOT nonhuman meaning angels/spirit beings. Israel was unique from the pagan nations that surrounded them, Israel had the law of God, 10 commandment, prophets and a Levitical priesthood. Since Israel had the law of God, it put Israel in the position of being "gods," (elohim), because God chose them, Israel was God's chosen people. They were chosen because of Christ. Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)," 1. >>>>"I said, “You are gods” >>>>>ONCE by the God (Father) in Psalm 82. Aspaph is the Author and Psalmist of Psalm 82. Prophets of the Old Testament like Asaph the "word of the Lord" would come to Prophets like Asaph. Prophets were the "Voice" of God. God (Father) would communicate His words through the prophets, God does that here in Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;">>>>>>>>Israel, Psalm 82 uses the word "all". This clearly is not about a bunch of watchers/super angels of a divine council. The Psalms were written to and for Israel. 2. SECOND time Jesus in John 10: 34 Repeats >>>> ‘I said, “You are gods” >>> Exodus 4:22 You are to say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Israel is my firstborn son." If you know your bible Jacob is Israel and there would be 12 sons borns to Jacob, which make up the 12 tribes of Israel. When a person reads Psalm 82:6 when it mentions "sons" it is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel in the physical world. In reality what a person can get from scripture is that Jesus tells us who the "gods/elohim" are in Psalm 82 when we read John 10 34-35. Jesus is the One who fulfills the words of the prophets from the OT in the NT, that is why Jesus REPEATED the exact words " I said, “You are gods, from Psalm 82 (God/Father) in John 10 (God/Son). The gods/elohim/divine council in Psalm 82 are not disembodied spirits, angelic or nonhuman spirit beings, they are Israel, all of Israel (Jacob's descendents) would be human, which includes judges, elders, rulers, kings, and the common Isrealite citizen.
It was written a very long time ago for a different sort of audience than the one which reads it now. We don't hear the message with the same background knowledge or world view as they did. Even a lot of highly trained pastors read things into the text that are not there, or fail to understand what IS clearly there. Sometimes, something gets lost in the translation, and if we haven't consulted the right sources to bridge the gap, we don't pick up on the subtle messages. That happens a lot when one reads the Bible. A good study Bible or commentary should clarify this stuff, but many don't. This requires additional exegesis, which Dr. Heiser happily provides.
That’s because they’re not mere men…and the Bible never indicates anything of them being mere men..and that’s why Paul says our battle isn’t against the flesh and blood of mere men. It’s a shame that mere men have proven too proud of their church traditions to submit to Gods truth
The Septuagint translators seemed to take Heiser's view. I don't know much Greek, but even I can recognize the words θεὸς for God and θεῶν for the genitive plural of gods in the Septuagint translation of 82:1: "ψαλμὸς τῷ Ασαφ ὁ θεὸς ἔστη ἐν συναγωγῇ θεῶν ἐν μέσῳ δὲ θεοὺς διακρίνει". So if it clearly means human rulers, why did these Second Temple Jewish scholars misunderstand it?
"theos" is the Greek equivalent of "elohiym." The word "elohiym" literally means "mighty ones." I'm not sure what "theos" literally means, but it's the Greek word for "god" and that's a primary way that the Hebrews used the term "elohiym." They were probably doing a word for word translation, and not an "interpretation."
@@gimel77 Elohim (Strong's H430) does not match up completely to either mighty ones or god or Gods. Like most words its use is context related, but its common theme is that it means a spiritual being without a body. When the Witch of Endor brought forth the spirit of the prophet Samuel she said she saw Elohim rising up out of the Earth, among which the spirit of Samuel was identified. (1 Samuel 28:13). Its not the only Hebrew word for Spirit, but it is closer to "spirits" than "gods" in many contexts.
@@gimel77 Seems Eloha is just a singular masculine form of Elohim with el sometimes being a shorter for of it. but sometimes a preposition and sometimes a pronoun. Consider English words and sounds for comparison. "can" by itself can be a modal verb or it can be a very unrelated noun, and neither meaning is very related to "canary" or "canard". I am no Hebrew scholar, so I am gonna just trust what I find in reference material written by scholars and such. Think its reckless to make assumptions.
Actually, the deceived one is Dr. Heiser. What he fails to address is the fact that "sons of the Most High" in the Old Testament are not always heavenly beings. Hosea 1:10 is another example of how "sons of the living God" refers to human beings, not angelic beings. Heiser is blinded by his "divine council" theology and sees it even when it's not there. Ps. 82:6 in that context is not about any "divine council." The "gods" there are human judges, not angelic beings.
Did I miss something or did you just try to refute Heiser’s claim that “sons of the Most High” refers to heavenly beings by referencing a verse that talks about “sons of the living God”?
@@timothyrauscher19 Yep. The term "sons of God" in the Bible does not always refer to "heavenly beings." That is a fact. Whether it's "sons of the Most High" or the synonymous term "sons of the living God," Heiser makes false claims. Contrary to popular belief, Heiser is not always right.
@@CRoadwarrior you're right in that bene haelohim can refer to men. Youre wrong in your conclusion and Heiser is right. Not only does elohim stand in the congregation of EL, so this is divine, but the are to DIE like an ADAM. Meaning they are not ADAM(HUMAN). How do you know that they are not judges of Israel? The last verse. They are to inheret ALL THE NATIONS. That doesnt apply to any judge of Israel in the old testament or levitical priesthood. It is also a far stretch to think Asaph used one word to mean two different things. Thats silly, really. He not only has another Hebrew word for distinguishment that he opts NOT to use, but he wouldve omitted die as a man. If you're reading either of those out of the text then youre the one messing with the context. This is definitely related to Deuteronomy 32, and the last verse is why. The Jewish Publication Society translation is THE authoritative English text of the old testament for Judaism and they also interpret the psalm as Heiser does, along with many other Jews, and the one the ones who dont have to make contrivances and explain why to read the text and understand it DIFFERENTLY than what it states. Heisers view is THE natural understanding of the Hebrew and there arent nuances leaning it another way, all nuances solidify that his way is correct. Outside of this not only requires explination but unanimously stems from the single thought, surely it cannot mean what it says, that doesnt harmonize with my doctrine.
@@garlandjones7709 Yes, I am right I know in dealing with how "sons of God" is used of humans and perhaps angels. But you confuse the meaning of "die like men" to mean these "sons" cannot be human. That in itself is flawed reasoning. The immediate context does not fit angels. For example, in verses 2 and 3, we have words that do not and cannot apply to angels. When did angels judge "unjustly" any humans or show partiality to the wicked? Human judges, yes. Angels, no way. How can angels defend the fatherless and poor, and do justice to the afflicted and needy as in verse 3? This does not and cannot apply to angels. This is the immediate context of the very text which cannot be ignored. The final verse does not support your view, and this is shown in the Hebrew. Here is the translation from the New King James Version: Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations. Now, in Hebrew, this text is NOT speaking of the divine council of angelic beings, since the "You" in the text is second person SINGULAR, not plural, showing that the true God is being spoken of in that verse. So no, I am not wrong, as my view has contextual backing and original Hebrew support.
Guys, the clear meaning of what Jesus is saying is "the Scripture called those people gods, so why are you angry at me claiming to be the Son of God?" The "blasphemy" was Jesus saying that he and the Father are one, or that he is the actual emissary of the Father on the earth, hence "Son of God." He literally said "my hand" and then said his "Father's hand" as if they are one in the same. That was too much for them. But what Jesus told them was, the word of God was delivered to your forefathers, and that was enough for you to call them "gods." But yet I am doing the works of my Father, and you don't believe. Guys, this is obvious.
By the time of Jesus a few traditions had development about these beings in order to get away from the polytheism which is obvious. The first was angles then judges, now at Jesus times those to whom the law came and eventually all humans who are born again can be called sons of God. In Jesus' rhetorical remarks and argument he does not quote the passage properly but the tradition and interpretation and uses that as a counter their implications of blasphemy.
Don't Xtians always use the gospel of John to prove Jesus is God and thus their dumb Trinity. Yet if Jesus was showing that Ps. 82 was about humans being called gods that would certainly diminish anything that rings of Jesus as such being unique as far as being called a god. His uniqueness would be his pre-incarnation status and his Father's mission on the cross so as to bring in many other sons of god thus receiving the name above all names. Being in the status of 'god' or existing prior to Abraham has no bearing on whether he is the God in regard to nature/essence issues. Do Xtians ever think through their arguments.
This is the problem with TH-cam theology. We are Christians are we not? Does that not mean something if not that we handle ourselves truthfully? But in this video there are untruthful and false arguments. Like the question, "decieved or dishonest?" False dilemma sir! You fail to recognize that he may be right. Was Jesus decieved? He translated this in the very same way. John 10:34,35 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken...- Jesus To whom the Word of God came! So im aware that Heiser and you have an explanation for this. Yet there is alternative consistent explanation on Dr Whites part and mine as well. This isn't a foundational issue. Yet you wish to slander him. Why? James doesn't believe demons and angels don't exist. He just doesn't interpret Psalm 82 the way you do. Why is it so tempting for you to make childish videos like this? -the slowing down and making his voice low and demonic sounding. It's so ridiculous. We serve a glorious Savior. Do something better with your time. Refute and explain how James is wrong instead of this. You present Heiser's view with respect. But James you present with mocking. Ungodliness for sure is this video.
I love Dr. White. I don't think he's correct here, but you don't have to denigrate a brother in Christ as deceived or dishonest just because he's wrong. Nobody gets everything right, you ought to have more grace towards him.
Of course it's not denigration to correct somebody. But this is not how you are to correction someone Biblically. Did you go to him directly? Did you do it in a spirit of humility and out of love and concern for the other person?@@jacobmartinez5263
Heiser's "divine council" theology is flawed because he twisted or otherwise distorted key passages, such as Psalm 82, Deuteronomy 32:8, 4:19, and others. I recommend reading the book "The Unbiblical Realm: Refuting the Divine Council of Michael Heiser’s Deuteronomy 32 Worldview" by Heath Henning. Those interested in videos on this topic can check out my series called "The UnBiblical Realm: Refuting Michael Heiser's Divine Council w/Heath Henning. Heiser used his liberal education and imported the "divine council" idea into his evangelical views, and has duped the evangelical world into accepting liberal theology cloaked in evangelical garb.
Heiser has a doctorate and a masterful grasp of hebrew among other languages. He also always cites his sources. Henning is just a guy from wisconsin who self publishes a lot. He has no formal education in any of the biblical languages. He just claims to know stuff.
@@vanuaturly So what? Most of the people on the "Jesus Seminar" have doctorates and so forth. Yet they would not know the real Jesus if He walked on water to them and said, "I am Jesus." So what does that prove? Henning is not "just a guy" from Wisconsin. He has a working knowledge of both Hebrew and Greek. Life is not all about formal education. I started learning both Hebrew and Greek BEFORE graduate school, and then tested out of Greek 1 because I had learned it on my own well enough to skip Greek 1. He doesn't just claim to "know stuff." He does know from study and taking classes. He just didn't have the money or time to do formal education because the man has 9 kids.
@CRoadwarrior you can't teach yourself a language and have a real knowledge of it. Enough to test out of level one, sure. But not a real depth of knowledge of the language. You need formal training.
Jesus holds the answer of the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 in John 10. Israel are the "gods" in Psalm 82, the "gods" are human NOT nonhuman meaning angels/spirit beings. Israel was unique from the pagan nations that surrounded them, Israel had the law of God, 10 commandment, prophets and a Levitical priesthood. Since Israel had the law of God, it put Israel in the position of being "gods," (elohim), because God chose them, Israel was God's chosen people. They were chosen because of Christ. Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken)," 1. >>>>"I said, “You are gods” >>>>>ONCE by the God (Father) in Psalm 82. Aspaph is the Author and Psalmist of Psalm 82. Prophets of the Old Testament like Asaph the "word of the Lord" would come to Prophets like Asaph. Prophets were the "Voice" of God. God (Father) would communicate His words through the prophets, God does that here in Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;">>>>>>>>Israel, Psalm 82 uses the word "all". This clearly is not about a bunch of watchers/super angels of a divine council. The Psalms were written to and for Israel. 2. SECOND time Jesus in John 10: 34 Repeats >>>> ‘I said, “You are gods” >>> Exodus 4:22 You are to say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Israel is my firstborn son." If you know your bible Jacob is Israel and there would be 12 sons borns to Jacob, which make up the 12 tribes of Israel. When a person reads Psalm 82:6 when it mentions "sons" it is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel in the physical world. In reality what a person can get from scripture is that Jesus tells us who the "gods/elohim" are in Psalm 82 when we read John 10 34-35. Jesus is the One who fulfills the words of the prophets from the OT in the NT, that is why Jesus REPEATED the exact words " I said, “You are gods, from Psalm 82 (God/Father) in John 10 (God/Son). The gods/elohim/divine council in Psalm 82 are not disembodied spirits, angelic or nonhuman spirit beings, they are Israel, all of Israel (Jacob's descendents) would be human, which includes judges, elders, rulers, kings, and the common Isrealite citizen.
you did a very good job explaining this my friend... however it would seem that someone copied and pasted your same exact comment under your original one.
@@justinhemion6279 HMMM, Interesting, hopefully the person copied and pasted on other TH-cam channels about the subject matter of Psalm 82, glad you appreciated the comment. Jesus is the Reason.
You don't get to arbitrarily use John as the filter by which to 'interpret' the Psalm. I could use the Psalm to say John was wrong. The Psalm says what it says and the phrase bene elohim, bene ha elohim, and bene elim are never used of humans - PERIOD. Now elohim, not as plural, was used for Moses and David as God's representatives on earth. Those two are the most important figures in all Judaism. This was singular usage and thus the context is clear that these humans are not the God but act in his stead AS God. It is not ever used as a plural for humans and certainly not just any ole Israelite or even judges (see Josh.23:2 for 4 other words for leaders and Ex.18 for more) - there are other words for that. John takes it that way because it has do with his theology about becoming sons of God (in Hebrew bene elohim which was never used of any humans) and at his time the tradition that they were the leaders of Israel had developed already! Traditions and interpretations had developed during the time between the Psalm and the time of John in order to diminish the clear polytheistic tones of this psalm and elsewhere. They first were thought actual children of God and a class above the malakim (angles). They then became malakim and then human judges or Israel. That's an interpretation not a translation. We know scribes edited texts in this manner. You also fail to take into account that Jesus could be using a rhetorical - for the sake of argument - tactic. He would thus be quoting their TRADITON about the Psalm - that the judges of Israel were called gods. Thus, showing that their concern for his claims are not valid even according to their traditions - if true. Either way (I don't think he was for broader contextual reasons - I think he believed the tradition as well - but it is possible), Jesus does not quote the Psalm properly since it never mentions humans or judges, or leaders or anything else other than gods. Nor does it say at what point (the giving of the law) this happened in the Psalm. Plus, the Psalm says that they will die like Adam - how can that be if they are already going to die and already humans? The ALL in the psalm refers to ALL those in the 'el ba adat' (the Divine Congregation) which are called elohim (gods) not judges or leaders etc. And as Ps.89 clearly says these are in heaven not earth.
This short clip well illustrates the scholarly debate on how to exegete Psalm 82. Elsewhere you will find some arguing for 'judges' and others for the 'divine council'. What it does clearly show is that the term 'God/god' has a range of meanings and is applied to others apart from the Most High including Moses; Hebrew Kings and Judges/angelic beings. Jesus himself refers to Psalm 82 in his dispute with the religious leaders who wanted to know if he was the Christ. They asserted his claim to be God's son was akin to claiming to be a god. Jesus pointed them to Psalm 82 and made it clear that if others (Judges or angelic beings) can be called 'gods' then surely he can claim to be God's son.
White is not a scholar so there is no scholarly debate coming from him. He is grade-school level when it comes to an actual degree on anything. Heck, he claims he majored in biology and has shown he has no idea what biology even is. He is a liar and fraud. I have all his stuff and it is laughable.
Just look up the Hebrew word God(h430) in a lexicon and it plainly tells us Heiser is wrong on psalm 82 as it specifically says "rulers" or "judges"... by ALL REPUTABLE HEBREW SCHOLARS.... and The Lord Himself tells us there is ONLY One Divine--> Isaiah 44:8 KJV - Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
No, they are telling you how it has been used - interpreted and acting as a translation - either ignorance or liars. It improperly refers to judges. Hebrew has a word for that and it is not elohim. Furthermore, even if elohim could be 'judges' the phrase bene elohim or bene ha elohim or bene elim (sons of God) is never used as such. Ps82; 89; Deut 32 (DSS) and elsewhere are clear. In Exodus the requirement is to bring them to God - of course the servants (judges) of God would do that but that does not mean that they are elohim and certianly not the bene elohim. It is clear that passages in this vein have been altered to get away from this polytheistic tone and thus through out the transition to strict monotheism Jews and Xtians have interpreted things not translated them. And 2nd Isaiah is way late in this process. It was a later tradition that they were angles and judges. This is why Jesus in John uses it improperly. I exodus regarding Moses it is obvious by context that he is not the God and as such act in his stead as an ambassador carrying the name of YHWH before Pharaoh. David was the only other person that was called God in that capacity.
@@veridicusmaximus6010 only One God. Isaiah 43: 10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
@@davidcrane6593 Sorry we are in Ps.82 and discussing vocab related to that - Is. did not write Ps.82 and you are assuming univocality and elevating Is. over and above other clear verses that other elohim actually exist. That's not proper exegesis and is bias towards your dogma of inspiration and inerrantcy!
@@veridicusmaximus6010the prophets do no conflict with one another... they are ALL Holy Ghost inspired--> 2 Peter 1:21 KJV - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. This is why ALL the Hebrew scholars tell us "gods" (h430) means "rulers or judges".... there are no lesser "gods"
@@davidcrane6593 Assertion is not demonstration. And now you are onto 2 Peter which was not even written by him. LMAO! And no - all Hebrew scholar do not tell you that - that is absolutely asinine. And stop acting like you know anything about scholarship. And I already explained why - and you did counter any of it. There are plenty of words for 'rulers' or 'judges' - just read Exodus and Joshua. Elohim is not one of them.
Why don’t you just advise believers to do their own homework so real conversation can help us all to grow up in spiritual things. You should be all about teaching the Church how to do just that……..you could be wrong yourself! Go figure?
Have you finished medical school yet? Did you get your certification in geology yet? Why haven't you taken the time to do the in depth study required to fully and correctly understand the bible? Pastors WANT YOU to read and do your own research, but not everyone does, just like not everyone wants to be a Doctor. Biblical study and understanding takes more than a lifetime to grasp, so why would you want a beginner Pastoring? Your statement shows that you have not thought this through very well. There is no such thing as a person, denomination or Church that has all the correct answers. Each and every person living will have a different understanding of scripture because we all have grown up differently. The amazing thing is that the Bible is so comprehensive that no matter your personal circumstances it still applies in a very personal manner.
"I never knew you". I will be there in the clouds on His return when Jesus tells White and all the other Calvinists and false teachers what he thinks of the constant disrespect and mockery of Yahweh's word. Justice will be done.
If you disagree with Heiser please get his book the unseen realm. Once you read and understand it then come to the table with your arguments. I promise that you won’t be a heretic for reading it and I promise you’ll learn that Mike isn’t a heretic either.
Heiser was a blind guide. He was correct in God/Elohim capital "G" and gods/elohim lower case "g" but his application was all wrong. From Heiser's Chapter 1 Unseen Realm "One such moment in my own life-the catalyst behind this book-came on a Sunday morning in church while I was in graduate school. I was chatting with a friend who, like me, was working on a PhD in Hebrew studies, killing a few minutes before the service started. I don’t recall much of the conversation, though I’m sure it was something about Old Testament theology. But I’ll never forget how it ended. My friend handed me his Hebrew Bible, open to Psalm 82 He said simply, “Here, read that … look at it closely.” The first verse hit me like a bolt of lightning: Psalm 82:1 God stands in the divine assembly; he administers judgment in the midst of the gods I’ve indicated the Hebrew wording that caught my eye and put my heart in my throat. The word elohim occurs twice in this short verse. Other than the covenant name, Yahweh, it’s the most common word in the Old Testament for God. And the first use of the word in this verse worked fine. But since I knew my Hebrew grammar, I saw immediately that the second instance needed to be translated as plural. There it was, plain as day: The God of the Old Testament was part of an assembly-a pantheon-of other gods." >>>>Okay this is from Heiser’s book the “Unseen Realm” Chapter 1 in his opening of this book. Let’s look at the word “pantheon”, this one word changes everything about Heiser’s theory. Heiser’s view of pantheon of other gods is spiritual/non-human/angelic, what most people do not know is that the word pantheon has a dual meaning, so it is not just pantheon spiritual gods. Let’s look at dictionary definiton for the word “pantheon” 1) a group of particularly respected, famous, or important people: somewhat formal : a group of people who are famous or important "the pantheon of the all-time greats" example: a building in which the illustrious dead of a nation are buried or honoured. 2) all the gods of a people or religion collectively: the gods of a particular country or group of people "the deities of the Hindu pantheon" (especially in ancient Greece and Rome) a temple dedicated to all the gods. So with the definition can apply to both 1) people and 2)pagan gods. What Heiser did when it came to Psalm 82, he applied the pagan god (elohim) meaning to the pantheon, which is the second use of the word pantheon, this is where he error's from the first chapter in his book the unseen realm. What Heiser should have done is apply the “FIRST” meaning of the word pantheon to the gods/elohim in Psalm 82, which would be people. When a person applies the “FIRST” meaning Israel now fits in Psalm 82 as the gods/elohim. Israel is Jacob’s decendents made up of 12 tribes. Psalm 82 is totally about Israel (Jacob’s decendents). Israel is the “Chosen People” of God in that time period, Israel is important because Jesus Christ, the Messiah would come through that people group, Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, Judah is how we get the term “Jew” from. So the pantheon of gods/elohim would be Israel all of Israel, which would consist of people that are Judges, Rulers, Kings, Elders and even the common Israelite person. So when a person Pairs up Psalm 82 and John 10 Israel, Jacob's decendents/12 tribes makes more sense. Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;>>>>>>Israel
I believe you are missing the whole point. Forget the word "Pantheon". It's not in the Bible, it is a descriptive word most everyone takes as meaning, "more that one god". I would take it as he intended it to be taken. And, it appears you missed the whole point and teaching of the divine council. There are a number of places our modern church defines something based on our modern interpretation that does not track with what was a known and accepted belief in ancient Judaism. This being one of them. One has to ask, after 2500 years with a belief, why do we think we have a right to re interpret based on our own modern understanding? Do we have someone with a vision from God giving us a different interpretation? New revelation? What I read was just word salad based on modern interpretation and modern church doctrine.
@@brettmathews3191 What do you do with LUKE 22:44? Jesus is the fulfillment of what is written in the OT in the NT Luke 24:44, Jesus speaking "Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Psalm 82 would be included with this when you look at John 10 Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;>>>>>Jacob's decendents/Israel/humans being addressed, The Chosen People John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),">>>>>Jacob's decendents/Israel/ humans being addressed, The Chosen People The Chosen People had the Law, word of the Lord come to them and they were to represent God and His Justice. Point out in scripture where Heiser's pantheon gods/elohim/nonhuman/angels were given the law (Law of Moses) or in possession of the law, also when did the word of the Lord ever come to Heiser's pantheon gods/elohim/angels????? Where are angels to represent God and his Justice? Psalm 82:3-4 3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. 4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. You can not answer any of these questions, sorry to tell you Heiser was wrong with his divine council of angels.
@@brettmathews3191 Not really, since my FAITH is in Christ that HE has ownership to telling us who the gods/elohim who are the Chosen People, your issue is NOT with me, it is with Jesus. Jesus is the ONE who fulfills what is in the OT in the NT, Heiser does not fulfill the OT. Heiser’s divine council of angels does not exist. Israel is the divine council no questions asked. The Chosen People are the ones the Law and word of Lord came to not a bunch of angels. Israel, The Chosen People/Israel are to represent God and His Justice. Heiser’s view is nothing new, this kind of thinking existed even before Christ, so it is basically man centered thinking instead of Christ centered thinking.
@@End_of_Days the divine council is obvious to anyone who just really doesn't want it to be true. You're wrong. Heiser was right and has much, much better arguments than anything you wrote
@@richardmorgan3938 Dude? You need to read more carefully. First example is: “you will be LIKE God to pharaoh. Second: Is about a slave choising to continue in the masters service. No mention of judges.
@@bradbrown2199 Thanks Brad, but I am a very careful reader. I also refrain from exegeting English translations. The word "like" is absent from the Hebrew text of Exodus 7:1 - וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל־מֹשֶׁה רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶֽךָ׃. The literal rendering is "I have made you God to Pharaoh." The NET translation note even admits "like" is an insertion by translators: 'The word “like” is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement “I have made you God to Pharaoh.” The word אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD-they are his representatives on earth. The explanation here goes back to 4:16. If Moses is like God in that Aaron is his prophet, then Moses is certainly like God to Pharaoh. Only Moses, then, is able to speak to Pharaoh with such authority, giving him commands.' So there you have it; biblical scholars agreeing with me. I don't make this stuff up. As for my other example, read it again and you will find the word elohim clearly there, in reference to the judges to whom the servant is brought.
@@richardmorgan3938 but the the connection is the same. You will God to Pharaoh is the idea of representation “like”. But this is your best to support Psalms 82 to mean judges? Sons of God is clearly A reference to spiritual beings. Psalms 89 would have jewish elders in the sky? Besides, to die like men as a pronounced judgement to men is silly. Elohim simply is referencing a spiritual being. Sometimes YWHW, other times angelic beings, even a departed human as w Samuel and Saul w the Endor witch. One Creator, a family of spiritual children, then.we came along. Let us make man in our image. Let us confuse their language. God’s bureaucracy is who he is talking with. Augustine did quite a number on Calvinists. Go bCk to earlier church fathers to see how this is referenced. The other verse, has no judges in view. If so please zero on for me where I can find this. Or is this imported from somewhere else?
@@bradbrown2199 You are correct, that where elohim refers to beings other than Very God then it is used in terms of representation. Moses was not, literally, God, but he was called God because he represented God. That is true too for judges in Israel in such passages as Exodus 21:7. They do God's work and as such represent Him and are called by His name and/or title. Yes, this does support the idea that in Psalm 82 elohim refers to judges in Israel. Look at the psalm. It refers to the elohim making unjust judgments (v2). That cannot possibly refer to celestial immortal angels because they share in the divine nature and, as such, do not sin. Verse 3 tells us why these people are called elohim, because they should be administering God's justice - doing things on behalf of God. He brings justice to the orphans and widows and so should they. But they weren't representing God correctly and so "like men you shall die" (v7). That, too, cannot possibly be referring to celestial immortal angels because immortal beings cannot, by definition, die. Ergo. the psalm refers to mortal beings - human beings. It is perfectly simply. I have no idea what you're talking about re Augustine and Calvinists, nor do I really care what early church fathers said. I am interested in what the Bible says.
Who are the Princes of Greece and Persia in Daniel? These are unequivocally spirit creatures to seem to have dominion over nations. I think Heiser has got it right.
If say man has the same exact faith as God and will and is holy in those things we can say that man is god like can we not. For that is what we were created for and what we will do. So its ok for God to call us gods. But just know its God who is making that calling to signify the alignment with Him and not us to claim some desire
I know J. White from the Late 70's, he was always arrogant and self-important (I could tell a story, but I won.t) Dr. Heiser's mistake is the phrase 'divine council'...it should be "supernatural council'. Divinity is reserved for One. Heiser shouldn't have tried to emulate ancient Sumer or Egypt...they were wrong!
James White is deep in the hole, step one STOP DIGGING lol. You ever think that you're spending more time defending and explaining Calvin than the actual Bible?? Sorry but Heiser is eating your lunch
To Aldo Herrera: I bet you do all these ridiculous videos because you are against the principles of Sovereign Grace. IDK. But that's usually why. Unbelievable. Do you know what Reformed epistemology is? Or what is your hermeneutic and view of Calvinist Theology? I haven't the time to check your profile.
Heiser's entire construct falls apart when you understand who Satan really is in the Hebrew Scriptures and ancient Jewish mindset. th-cam.com/video/qVCHhcgxaXE/w-d-xo.html
Go home and stop contradicting a great scholar who actually does his homework! We who are serious about The Word Of God follow up on the hundreds of references Dr. Heiser offers, you should lay down your religious mind filters and at least be respectful to those who care about the truth! Shame on you!
At 0:59, yes, the elohim (הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים), read as "judges" who are tasked to deliver individuals out of the hand of the wicked is seen in places like Exodus 21:6, 22:8. There is no exegetical reason to support Heiser's assertions, and yes, I've read his book.
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I'm listening to Mike Heiser probably for 5 years or so.
He has very solid teachings.
I was amazed he was not attacked by the "TH-cam teachers" earlier.
It is expected, all the dirt will attack anything that has a light...
It is funny, in this Video the last part about the "lying prophets" is right on the money...
Glad to see Heiser getting respect. I just learned of him a month ago.
I've been listening to him for about 8 to 10 years now. It seriously revolutionizes your comprehension of not only the Biblical Texts, but the heavenly realm and the mind of God.
Amen have you promoted his work to any small groups?
@@JamesMarshallimagesofgrace
I've brought alot of his teachings to church groups which was always met with some confusion and resistance.
The more accepting crowd has always been old friends that stumbled into New Age Movements, Aliens, and occultic rooted movements like Zeitgeists.
I've been able to lead many of them BACK to Christ through Michael Heiser's work. People in Occultic movements just think more spiritually than 90% of modern Christian denominations and they are way easier to reach and bring back than Christians sitting under a false teacher or doctrine.
Dr. Heiser is/was a real scholar and a serious linguist of several Semitic languages. You are a good example of a real “wanna be.”
Dr. Heiser is using his pedigree and "God the Son/two powers" theology to teach something about Psalm 82 that is completely unfounded in Scripture. In John 10, Jesus does not agree with Dr. Heiser's "interpretations" and blatant misuse of Scripture (like Psalm 89 for example). No, Heiser is incorrect and I don't care how many languages he speaks.
There is a clear message that Jesus is giving in John 10 that the average lay reader can clearly understand.
@gimel77 wrong. But check out fallen by tim chaffey, he spends a few chapters on both the sethite and royalty views and explains in detail why they fail
@@onecowstampede9140 I don't know what those are, I can just read and understand the clear meaning of Psalm 82 together with how Jesus uses it in John 10. I don't need a PhD in Semitic languages for that.
@@gimel77 classic exegetical fallacy. Check out d a carsons book on exactly why that is. Everyone finds something different that is "clear to them" wether its cessationist/continuationist- Calvinist/arminian- theistic evolutionist or young earth creationist.. literally every doctrine is split by whats "crystal clear" to every stripe of exegete- which is why we factor in historic and grammatical norms from contemporary literature especially for the rare words where theories abound.
The "clear meaning" of sons of God- is sons of God. Benai Elohim= direct creation of.
Its the catch all for all heavenly beings, holy ones, watchers- and its said- in terms of human imagers- only of Adam and Eve and then of the new born creation we have the potential to become in Jesus Christ.
Check out fallen- its very generous with the competing theories you'll get more ammo than "trust me bro"
@@onecowstampede9140 But the phrase "b'ney elohim" is not used in Psalm 82.
James White very carefully chose the translation to use for this. One that erroneously translates the second occurrence of elohim in verse one as "judges".
But...We find Elohim in Exodus 7:1, Exodus 21:6, 22:8, (Judges) this is talking about men.
@@defendchrist2891 Here's Exodus 7:1
1The LORD answered Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
Doesn't mean that Moses is a god.
Exodus 21:6
6then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall bore his ear through with an awl, and he shall be his slave forever.
Other translations use "judges" for elohim here, but the ESV for example uses God. There is no reason to use "judges" because this is an act done before God.
Exodus 22:7-8 (ESV)
7“If a man gives to his neighbor money or goods to keep safe, and it is stolen from the man’s house, then, if the thief is found, he shall pay double. 8If the thief is not found, the owner of the house shall come near to God to show whether or not he has put his hand to his neighbor’s property.
Again, other translations put "judges" in verse 8 instead of God. The judges in Israel are appointed before God and are meant to represent God, but they are not "gods". It is God (YHWH) who judges and earthly judges are put in position to represent this judgment, according God's law.
@@fraukeschmidt8364 who said it made Moses a god? Elohim is used of men as leaders before God.
@@fraukeschmidt8364 "like" a God isn't the same as "God". Smh
@@Richard_Rz Does not say "like"
He's reading from a Translation that isn't based on Hebrew ancient writing from the Torah. Heiser is exaclty correct!!!
The correct translation comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls. White is reading from the NASB which is a fine translation, just not fully up to date. ESV is the current best for word accuracy.
@@AndyTulenko I find he's negating the unseen realm entirely
@@CloudofGlory, unfortunately, I've come to expect that from 5-point Calvinists. Their theology is such that they suffer from severe cognitive dissonance and find it necessary to bring everyone to their point of view, despite its obvious flaws.
So we need Dr. Heiser to explain it for us, when we can clearly see what Jesus is saying in John 10?
@@AndyTulenkocalvinists are silly
I sense white knows his argument is weak and he is misrepresenting the passage by his condescending ridiculous facial expressions and demeaning tone in his voice. That's what some people do to manipulate to overcompensate for a weak argument.
That's been White's tactic(s) for years
Read Psalm 82 and then read John 10. The meaning is clear. You don't need Dr. Heiser with his PhD to completely convolute the clear meaning of what Jesus is saying.
@@gimel77 now that is hilarious. If one reads psalm 82 how does one arrive at the interpretation being in John 10 and then this person says these are Jesus's words lol. Yeah, you know what you're talking about. Like whoever wrote the gospel of John is really quoting jesus and true historical facts.
For some reason this dude thinks he has the correct interpretation and everyone else is wrong lol welcome to the apologetics world where legitimate scholarship and rational thinking is mocked at
@@michaelglass9604 White does that all the time. That's why serious scholars don't even deal with him generally speaking. Sometimes when pressed because the dude won't shut up they go ahead and do a debate and make him look like a fool. Ehrman spanked him badly on TC and White is still bitching about it YEARS later. Apologists like him are like MMA fighters who always have an excuse to give when they're on the losing end.
@@gmac6503 I’m not defending White, I’m just talking about the clear meaning of Psalm 82 together with John 10.
Why are calvinists soooooo fearful of their doctrines? They all need to grow up into all things! At least they could keep silent until they find the truth and stop trying to keep the Church so ignorant about letting the Word Of God simply say what it says! Just following up on references actually opens up a whole new concept to believers who have been afraid to question anything spiritual. Dr. Heiser has taught us all that our questions can and should be answered, and he taught us how to do it for ourselves without just passively accepting just whatever our denomination swears to. This includes accepting even whatever he says. Some are very thankful for that alone!
"Dr. Heiser has taught us all that our questions can and should be answered"
ok, explain how God died on a cross and explain the trinity to me
@@tomtemple69 That is rude and you know it. While user's comment is not very precise, it does not call for you to grab a mostly unanswerable pair of questions and throw them out like there is o correct understanding. If you understand the questions you asked, then you will know the answer. It does take a fair amount of background research and enough faith to allow a preponderance of evidence to convince, either of which you may lack.
@@AndyTulenko the comment says "all questions can be answered"
@tomtemple69 Actually, if you get technical, the original comment was that Heiser taught US all that our questions could & should be answered 😉 But he also taught that not all questions had a clear defined answer - which we can see in his discussions on end times. He was a BIG proponent of teaching you how to study your Bible yourself & not being afraid of the text, but to be curious & dig deeper. And with that he also developed a large amazing community that enjoys coming alongside each other to help in expounding on topics when they are struggling. It is a beautiful thing to see the body of Christ helping each other in this loving manner.
I am curious if your original questions are sincere? Or were you hoping to be antagonistic to the original poster?
God took on human flesh through Mary, was born Jesus of Nazareth, which was in name a reference to Joshua, who led the Israelites to the promised land after Moses. Jesus, after living a sinless life began teaching about the His coming kingdom, and how we will live as citizens in it, he preached against the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, he preached about upholding the heart of the law rather than just the letter, and finally he began to tell his disciples that he was going to die and then raise which they could not comprehend. When the time was right and he had finished His earthly ministry, he went to Jerusalem, claimed He was God, and was charged with blasphemy. The Jews handed him over to the civil authorities accusing him of saying he was essentially above the Roman emperor, and was executed by the Romans for insurrection/rebellion. In so doing, he became the final sacrificial lamb for the sins of not only the Jews, but the whole world. The Bible says “the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus”. Because sin ends in death, and death must atone for the sins of man, Jesus Christ THE man was able to die that death on behalf of ALL or ANY man. So now, we are promised that even though we must still suffer physical death, we will pass into new and eternal life in Him, and on the last day, or when history is complete, we will be raised again, bodily, to eternal life on remade world. All this was accomplished while God was still on His throne in heaven, and while the Holy Spirit was at work. Matt. 3:16, 17, 26:64.
That is how God died on a cross
TL;DR
God was born as a man, lived a sinless life, was accused of blasphemy by the religious elite for calling himself God, was crucified, died, buried, then rose from the dead on the third day. He did that, and he was in heaven.
I think James is just dishonest here
Yes, James is being James. When is he ever honest?
I don’t know him but I think he means well. He might be understandably concerned with the implications of the Bible saying there are many gods, which suggests that monotheism means something a little different than we may think.
My view is that the Bible is a mysterious book with obvious truths. The obvious truth is the sin problem and the need for Jesus to take on himself our sins so all who believe can be in right standing with God.
The mysteries however, which are not salvation issues, are les obvious and only revealed by God as he wills.
@@InnovativeSaint biblical monotheism is still intact. The word elohim means divine or spiritual being all the time in scripture. Every single time. “god” isn’t a name either. That’s where we get all worked up. We’ve just looked past the claims because we either don’t understand it or we don’t want to. White is a Calvinist too, so that may be part of it.
James is simply being James. Snake! He has no idea what the scholars are saying anyway on anything biblical. Heck, he even gets Calvin wrong and misquotes him intentionally. Snake!
@@gmac6503 Well, he has never been humble. That fits the template perfectly as ginned up by Jean Cauvin, fallen man and worldly tyrant in Geneva.
After a year of study on this topic in seminary, I must agree with Heiser but also clarify the meaning of 'elohim'. The word correctly means either, "Resident of the Spiritual realm" or more succinctly, "Spiritual being". It does not mean "God" or "god". The dead sea scrolls cleared this up for us. Many do not like this because they feel it diminishes God by adding other 'gods'. To the contrary, this clarified understanding makes the one God even more unique and powerful. Try reading it with the correct wording in place of the word Elohim. You will be very surprised how it begins to instantly make many passages understandable. Currently the ESV is the only translation that has acknowledged the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) and made the changes to correct indicated passages.
don't worry brothers that's not part of the salvation!!!
PANADERIA TECNICA CON SERGIO JR
Amen. We all see through a glass dimly it seems. But I do love all the mystery of the Bible and that day when we enter into eternity with the Lord Christ Jesus all these became crystal clear
Unfortunately your comment makes no sense to me.....I take the Bible literally.....and I then ask the Holy Spirit's guidance as I pray.
@@hkkjr1115and what happens when two people who ask the holy spirit for guidance as they read the Bible come up with two different translation ideas?
@@drewjeers815 , There is no such thing as a person, denomination or Church that has all the correct answers. Each and every person living will have a different understanding of scripture because we all have grown up differently. The amazing thing is that the Bible is so comprehensive that no matter your personal circumstances it still applies to everyone. There are correct and incorrect interpretations, but once those are understood, there is a nearly infinite number of valid applications of the understanding. That's where most people think they see differences in dogma when it's only the application of it.
This is why we need spiritual discernment, which comes from asking God, seeking to understand his ways through His Word revealed by His Spirit, spending time with him, asking him to help us turn from sin. This is how we can know what the Spirit tells us versus what the devil or our own mind tells us.
I was going to write this somewhat long, glowing passage about Dr. Heiser, but let me shorten it, and just say this… Dr. Heiser was an absolute stud.
Here’s the rub as i see it. Augustinian/Calvinistic theology that is deterministic. Free will as commonly understood, is challenged by the Psalms 82 worldview. Free will elohim ? How could this be? YHWH determines all thoughts and actions of all created beings. Spiritual or physical. To save the theology requires denial of Academic understanding that Heiser presents. Prove me wrong.
I can't stand arrogant hacks.
While Heiser & White may disagree on this issue it does not make them enemies. They both love Christ first and foremost and will one day be able to discuss it together with way more knowledge than either currently has on earth. I wouldn't mind sitting in on that.
There won't be any 'sitting in on that' so I suggest studying this topic now
Mr White, failed here. I go for Heiser, biblically correct. White just dont see it.
Mr White is blinded by the Spirit of Calvin.
"There is only one reality---the reality knowable to reason."
-Nathaniel Branden-
So the judges, who are men, have upset God, so he curses them to die like men, which they would already do since they were already been men? Sorry bro, they weren't judges.
Stop making sense bro😂
James White is not considered a scholar outside of Calvinist circles.
Outside of reformed pub *
Even some of us Calvinists think he is not much of a scholar.
Calvinist scholar ---- a huge oxymoron.
Lol said like a true sufferer of anti-Calvinist derangement syndrome.
I appreciate James he's a good brother to all called Christian. Ok you don't have to agree with him here but man he is a warrior for the faith. I am one who is glad God has placed him on our side.
Well said. Good men and women who mean well can get it wrong sometimes, when it comes to the mysteries of scripture.
The Bible is full of mysteries but no christian should be confused as to the God we serve and his only begotten son Jesus Christ.
If a teacher holds a worldview that ignores a supernatural realm, he is preaching a gospel of intellect. No one is saved by intellect alone. Not one person in scripture is saved by an intellectual assent. Job, David, Paul, the Jerusalem 3,000, etc. It is by experience, or a life worshipping His presence.
No!!! James Wright failed in his exegis of this passage.
I side 100% with Dr. Michael Heiser's insights on the topic.
James White is a self proclaimed scholar.
Both dishonest and deceived..sadly. James White has lost all credibility.
don't worry they still love GOD That the most import thing,
I’m glad they are both making us read the Bible lol!
@@fj2567I agree. I find one is, "wow, I've never seen that before"..the other, " oh boy, here we go again. Doesn't see sound right, doesn't feel right. Better study up on that one so I can refute that intelligently"
@@brettmathews3191 If by "I've never seen that before" you're referring to Heisner, that's because his teaching on Psalm 82 is so blatantly off the wall that it goes against the clear meaning of the text AND Jesus' use and interpretation of it in John 10.
@@gimel77 "Clear meaning" ??? I see that "pious" term quite often. Unfortunately most "clear meaning" as interpreted is usually the personal interpretation of some person without clear insight/3D into the backstory and doesn't have the grasp how the NT is an extension of the OT.
0:59 "Really where?"
Deuteronomy 1: 16 - 17
:)
That passage does not talk about the judges duty being to "rescue the weak and needy; deliver them out of the hand of the wicked" (Ps 82:4 NASB)
Nor does that Deuteronomy passage say anything like "Vindicate the weak and and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and destitute." (Ps 82:3 NASB).
Those things are what the LORD God himself always has been doing in Israel, as their God and as the one true God.
Example:
36For the LORD will vindicate His people
and have compassion on His servants
when He sees that their strength is gone
and no one remains, slave or free. (Deut 32)
He will not judge by what His eyes see,
and He will not decide by what His ears hear,
4but with righteousness He will judge the poor,
and with equity He will decide for the lowly of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth
and slay the wicked with the breath of His lips. Isaiah 11:3b-4 - this is a prophecy about Jesus
@@fraukeschmidt8364 Sorry? The entire point of the charge there is that judges should not show partiality in judgment and therefore distort justice for the weak, the orphans, and the widows. They should righteously uphold it. Hence why other passages, such as Isaiah 1:17, say to judges "obtain justice for the orphan", just as Psalm 82:3 says "vindicate the weak and the fatherless; do justice to the weak and destitute". And Psalm 82:1-2 is in strong parallel with the Deut passage I showed as well as Isaiah 3:14-15, which starts off the same exact way, "the Lord enters into judgment with the elders and leaders of His people, ...." (and then brings forth the rebuke concerning how they have mistreated the poor).
Also, I'm not sure your argument was with "Those things are what the LORD God himself always has been doing in Israel, as their God and as the one true God." What is your point here? Was it that only the Lord does the task of "delivering the poor/needy/weak"? Because that's completely at odds with the witness of Scripture (Job 29:12;16-17, Proverbs 24:11). We are all called to this duty as servants of Christ, and judges are especially in a position to do this. So, what was your argument?
Deceived AND Dishonest
Evaluations are key to exegetical understanding, and knowledge acquired from such is only valid when the point of origin has been established for such. Thankfully those having the greatest impact on true "Biblical exposition" are those who have shed the "Institutionalized contemporary Church box." The religious leadership of "Jesus" day frequently met with this reply from "Jesus" concerning their interpretation's of "Divine Writing." "Jesus" told them. "Not so from the beginning." Brother "Heiser" was a ground breaker and unashamed of "The Word of God." "His" legacy will be written as a man that followed "The TEXT" at the cost of honor from religious intuition's.
Oh my God, I cannot believe James White did this. Damn.....
you can't believe that James White did what?
@@directordissy3101 listen to the video 0:26, he says [Elohim] judges in the middle of [rulers] -> when reading the text he uses the original language in Hebrew for the first bracket, but when reading the second bracket he abandons the original language and use “judges”. This is very problematic. It seems to me he intentionally misleads people so people believe his interpretation of Psalm 82. In the original language, the second bracket is elohim.
@@rizkylumempouw6047 I think he was reading from the NASB95 which translates it that way.
@@directordissy3101 but even in NASB95, it uses “God” for the first bracket which James White reads “Elohim”. I really look up to James White but what he did is just very misleading: using Hebrew for the first bracket and switching to English for the second bracket when the original Hebrew does not favor his interpretation.
@@rizkylumempouw6047 James White is a good Greek teacher. He uses backwards compatibility to understand his Hebrew which is why is New Testament AND Old Testament theology is off. And its not just here
Sons of gods means angels…
I the commentators being dishonest, because Job 1:6 it says sons of god, says it in genesis 6:4, Daniel 10 talks about the prince of Persia… those are all references to divine being…
heiser got his degree from the university of WISCONSIN. he was not a theologian. psalm 82 says "you will die like men" how can spirit beings die? the psalm was a sarcastic judgment on the leaders of the israelites. it's plain if you aren't a book of enoch loving pagan like heiser was
Where did you get your PhD?
"You, who are men, will die like men" is a really retarded pronouncement as a judgement.
As in, "and nothing happens" stupid.
So then, if the psalm is about judgement, then either the beings being judged are men and God is giving nothing out as a punishment, which violates the attribute of being Just; or else the beings are _not_ men, and the pronouncement is a death-sentence to beings who would otherwise be immortal.
You've reduced the argument to that: either God is stupid and unjust, or else the beings are not human and receiving an actual sentence.
Where's Dr White's doctorate from again?
_"How can spirit beings die?"_
…it's a death sentence that's being handed out.
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
The passage literally says you will die like Adam. How did he die after the garden incident.
Heiser is correct here
His words as God (Father and Son) . "You are gods" is used twice in scripture, once in Psalm 82 verse 6 and once in John 10 verse 34. This is a similarity because it is the words of God spoken through the prophet Asaph in Psalm 82 and then again said again by Jesus the son of God in John 10. Both accounts this is the "word" of God (Father and Son). The Jews, God was referred to as Yahweh in Hebrew. Another use in Hebrew is Elohim (God), Jesus name in Hebrew is Yeshua. God in Greek is "Theos".
Psalm 82: 6 " I said, “You gods, And all of you children of the Most High. The word "gods" is lower case meaning elohim.
I said, “You are gods>>>>>>God the Father "words" speaking through the prophet Asaph. Asaph a “seer” or prophet. The word of the Lord would come to prophets in the Old Testament and God would speak through the prophet.
John 1 14 " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
God would speak the "Word" through a prophet like Asaph in Psalm 82, in the NT the "Word" was spoken by God incarnate in the flesh by Jesus in John 10.
John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),>>>>>>Jesus the Son speaking as God in the flesh. Jesus repeats what the Fathers words "You are gods" from Psalm 82:6 that were spoken and written by Asaph the prophet.
When the text says "You are gods" is directed to humans not angels or spiritual beings in both Psalm 82 and John 10, very clear. The "gods" (elohim) are Jewish officials that are in the position to rule and judge certain matters with in the nation of Israel, they are to represent the law and God.
God instructing Moses certain men in Israel to be judges, rulers, or elders ("gods" or "elohim). A Divine Council, Congregation of the Mighty or the Great Assembly
Exodus 18 25-26
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the
people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers
of tens. 26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard
cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves.
Psalm 82 with commentary Psalm 82 is also written Poetically by Asaph
1 God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty; (divine council, great assembly)
He judges among the gods. (elohim>>>judges, rulers, and elders with in the Nation of Israel) Note: when God "stands" and" judges" this is by the spoken/written word of the prophet
Asaph, because the word of the Lord would come to prophets in the OT.)
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.
5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable. ( Verses 2-5 Is a court setting, where the courts were intended as the place where the
needy could find justice, but they were not fulfilling this responsibility. They are judging unjustly
and are favoring the wicked, they are being questioned and scolded.
These verses could also be applied to Pharisees in the time of Jesus, basically bad rulers/elders,
not representing God or the law.)
6a I said, “You are gods,
((((Father's "words spoken and written by the prophet Asaph who wrote Psalm 82 ">>>>>Son's "words" addressing Pharisees who are Jewish rulers/elders a certain sect at the time of Jesus.
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken).
Israel was made up of 12 tribes or 12 nations, the nation of Israel was given the law. Also in John 10 34-35 Jesus is claiming to be equal and is God when He said....'I said "You are gods".
The “I said” is really no different then an “ I am” that is mentioned in the Gospel of John. There are 7 "I am" in the Gospel of John spoken by Jesus.
Note: Looking back at verse Psalm 82 verse 1, since God "stands" this is the prophetic fulfillment with Jesus (God in the flesh) as the Son of God would literally stand before Jewish rulers/elders the Pharisees, since Psalm 82 is written by the prophet Asaph a seer. Jesus also stands before Pharisees in John 8 scolding them (saying they are of their father, the devil), scolding like in Psalm 82.
John 8: 13 "The Pharisees therefore said to Him, You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”
John 8 42-44 "Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own for he is a liar and the father of it."))))
Verse 6b cont. And all of you are children of the Most High. (The children of the Most High are Israel, Jesus the Messiah is to come through them)
7 But you shall die like men, (referring to those bad elders, rulers and judges with High Authority, they favor the wicked and judge unjustly, they do
not follow through with their responsibilities, duties, and do not represent God, these High Officials are just men, so they will die like men)
And fall like one of the princes. (referring to earthly rulers or even angels, satan is the prince of the power of the air Ephesians 2:2, even Israel in Hebrew means prince of God )
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; (God is the supreme Judge)
For You shall inherit all nations (God inherits the nations by Jesus the son, Jesus is the coming King)
You are spot on.
Israel is not mentioned in the Psalm, so there is no indication to make this about the judges of Israel.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (BSB) reads thus:
8When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance,
when He divided the sons of man,
He set the boundaries of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD’s portion is His people,
Jacob His allotted inheritance.
This refers to the dividing of the nation's after the rebellion at Babel. God left the various nation's under their "sons of God" (created heavenly beings), while he chose to create his own people through Abraham (whose wife was barren, but through God's promise bore Isaac), Isaac (whose wife was barren, but through God's promise and prophecy bore Jacob (Israel) and Esau).
In Psalm 82 God sits in judgment over the heavenly beings (gods) that were put in charge of the nations. Because they rebelled against God and accepted worship (thereby becoming those nations "gods", e. g. Dagon), and did not vindicate or rescue the weak, fatherless, destitute and needy like God did with his people, that's why God condemns them to death, like men (though they are the "sons of the Most High"). Their destiny is in the lake of fire together with Satan.
Ultimately, the nations and all the earth still belong to God. Therefore God will judge the earth "For it is You who posses all the nations."
@@fraukeschmidt8364 Did you even read the comment,????? What about John 10? Where in scripture were heavenly beings/angels given the law??? What about the prophet Asaph???
The sons of God in both OT and NT are not angels, the sons of God are in Adopted status not angelic status.
Deuteronomy 32 has Nothing to do with Psalm 82
Yes Israel is mentioned in Psalm, look at Psalm 81, Asaph also wrote this as well
4 For this is a statute for Israel,
A law of the God of Jacob.
5 This He established in Joseph as a testimony,
When He went throughout the land of Egypt,
Where I heard a language I did not understand.
No God is NOT sitting in judgment in Psalm 82 it says He stands verse 1 God (Elohim) stands in the congregation of the mighty;
Heiser has so many people goofed up on his teaching on Psalm 82
Elohim is never used to describe men throughout scripture
Jesus in the passage you’re referencing in John very clearly is telling the Jewish people about to stone Him that their own Torah categorize the supernatural, so they cannot simply dismiss His claim that He is doing the works of the unseen Yahweh. You will not find one instance of Elohims being used to refer to a body of Israelites in OT…it is always reserved for the unbodily.
@@davidinstronghold Here is more of an updated explanation. Heiser promoted a world view and a Jewish fable mind set in his explanation. I hold to a Christ mindset and more context, letting scripture define scripture. In you response you never addressed Asaph the prophet.
Heiser was in error in his teaching, Jesus settles this in scripture long before Heiser. Israel are gods/elhim and the divine council.
Jesus holds the answer of the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 in John 10.
Israel are the "gods" in Psalm 82, the "gods" are human NOT nonhuman meaning angels/spirit beings.
Israel was unique from the pagan nations that surrounded them, Israel had the law of God, 10 commandment, prophets and a Levitical priesthood. Since Israel had the law of God, it put Israel in the position of being "gods," (elohim), because God chose them, Israel was God's chosen people. They were chosen because of Christ.
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
1. >>>>"I said, “You are gods” >>>>>ONCE by the God (Father) in Psalm 82. Aspaph is the Author and Psalmist of Psalm 82. Prophets of the Old Testament like Asaph the "word of the Lord" would come to Prophets like Asaph. Prophets were the "Voice" of God. God (Father) would communicate His words through the prophets, God does that here in Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;">>>>>>>>Israel, Psalm 82 uses the word "all". This clearly is not about a bunch of watchers/super angels of a divine council. The Psalms were written to and for Israel.
2. SECOND time Jesus in John 10: 34 Repeats >>>> ‘I said, “You are gods” >>> Exodus 4:22 You are to say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Israel is my firstborn son." If you know your bible Jacob is Israel and there would be 12 sons borns to Jacob, which make up the 12 tribes of Israel. When a person reads Psalm 82:6 when it mentions "sons" it is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel in the physical world.
In reality what a person can get from scripture is that Jesus tells us who the "gods/elohim" are in Psalm 82 when we read John 10 34-35. Jesus is the One who fulfills the words of the prophets from the OT in the NT, that is why Jesus REPEATED the exact words " I said, “You are gods, from Psalm 82 (God/Father) in John 10 (God/Son).
The gods/elohim/divine council in Psalm 82 are not disembodied spirits, angelic or nonhuman spirit beings, they are Israel, all of Israel (Jacob's descendents) would be human, which includes judges, elders, rulers, kings, and the common Isrealite citizen.
Why is the text of the Bible written in such a way that it is almost impossible to understand ? This is ridiculous.
It was written a very long time ago for a different sort of audience than the one which reads it now. We don't hear the message with the same background knowledge or world view as they did. Even a lot of highly trained pastors read things into the text that are not there, or fail to understand what IS clearly there. Sometimes, something gets lost in the translation, and if we haven't consulted the right sources to bridge the gap, we don't pick up on the subtle messages. That happens a lot when one reads the Bible. A good study Bible or commentary should clarify this stuff, but many don't. This requires additional exegesis, which Dr. Heiser happily provides.
It’s hard to read Eph 6:12 and see these Old Testament passages as just mere men.
That’s because they’re not mere men…and the Bible never indicates anything of them being mere men..and that’s why Paul says our battle isn’t against the flesh and blood of mere men.
It’s a shame that mere men have proven too proud of their church traditions to submit to Gods truth
The Septuagint translators seemed to take Heiser's view. I don't know much Greek, but even I can recognize the words θεὸς for God and θεῶν for the genitive plural of gods in the Septuagint translation of 82:1: "ψαλμὸς τῷ Ασαφ ὁ θεὸς ἔστη ἐν συναγωγῇ θεῶν ἐν μέσῳ δὲ θεοὺς διακρίνει". So if it clearly means human rulers, why did these Second Temple Jewish scholars misunderstand it?
"theos" is the Greek equivalent of "elohiym." The word "elohiym" literally means "mighty ones." I'm not sure what "theos" literally means, but it's the Greek word for "god" and that's a primary way that the Hebrews used the term "elohiym." They were probably doing a word for word translation, and not an "interpretation."
@@gimel77 Elohim (Strong's H430) does not match up completely to either mighty ones or god or Gods. Like most words its use is context related, but its common theme is that it means a spiritual being without a body. When the Witch of Endor brought forth the spirit of the prophet Samuel she said she saw Elohim rising up out of the Earth, among which the spirit of Samuel was identified. (1 Samuel 28:13). Its not the only Hebrew word for Spirit, but it is closer to "spirits" than "gods" in many contexts.
@@reasonforge9997 That’s just one example, perhaps parroted from Dr. Heiser.
@@reasonforge9997 The basic meaning of El or Eloha is “mighty.”
@@gimel77 Seems Eloha is just a singular masculine form of Elohim with el sometimes being a shorter for of it. but sometimes a preposition and sometimes a pronoun. Consider English words and sounds for comparison. "can" by itself can be a modal verb or it can be a very unrelated noun, and neither meaning is very related to "canary" or "canard". I am no Hebrew scholar, so I am gonna just trust what I find in reference material written by scholars and such. Think its reckless to make assumptions.
Actually, the deceived one is Dr. Heiser. What he fails to address is the fact that "sons of the Most High" in the Old Testament are not always heavenly beings. Hosea 1:10 is another example of how "sons of the living God" refers to human beings, not angelic beings. Heiser is blinded by his "divine council" theology and sees it even when it's not there. Ps. 82:6 in that context is not about any "divine council." The "gods" there are human judges, not angelic beings.
Did I miss something or did you just try to refute Heiser’s claim that “sons of the Most High” refers to heavenly beings by referencing a verse that talks about “sons of the living God”?
@@timothyrauscher19 Yep. The term "sons of God" in the Bible does not always refer to "heavenly beings." That is a fact. Whether it's "sons of the Most High" or the synonymous term "sons of the living God," Heiser makes false claims. Contrary to popular belief, Heiser is not always right.
@@CRoadwarrior you're right in that bene haelohim can refer to men. Youre wrong in your conclusion and Heiser is right.
Not only does elohim stand in the congregation of EL, so this is divine, but the are to DIE like an ADAM. Meaning they are not ADAM(HUMAN).
How do you know that they are not judges of Israel? The last verse. They are to inheret ALL THE NATIONS. That doesnt apply to any judge of Israel in the old testament or levitical priesthood.
It is also a far stretch to think Asaph used one word to mean two different things. Thats silly, really. He not only has another Hebrew word for distinguishment that he opts NOT to use, but he wouldve omitted die as a man. If you're reading either of those out of the text then youre the one messing with the context. This is definitely related to Deuteronomy 32, and the last verse is why.
The Jewish Publication Society translation is THE authoritative English text of the old testament for Judaism and they also interpret the psalm as Heiser does, along with many other Jews, and the one the ones who dont have to make contrivances and explain why to read the text and understand it DIFFERENTLY than what it states.
Heisers view is THE natural understanding of the Hebrew and there arent nuances leaning it another way, all nuances solidify that his way is correct.
Outside of this not only requires explination but unanimously stems from the single thought, surely it cannot mean what it says, that doesnt harmonize with my doctrine.
@@garlandjones7709 Yes, I am right I know in dealing with how "sons of God" is used of humans and perhaps angels. But you confuse the meaning of "die like men" to mean these "sons" cannot be human. That in itself is flawed reasoning.
The immediate context does not fit angels. For example, in verses 2 and 3, we have words that do not and cannot apply to angels. When did angels judge "unjustly" any humans or show partiality to the wicked? Human judges, yes. Angels, no way.
How can angels defend the fatherless and poor, and do justice to the afflicted and needy as in verse 3? This does not and cannot apply to angels. This is the immediate context of the very text which cannot be ignored.
The final verse does not support your view, and this is shown in the Hebrew. Here is the translation from the New King James Version:
Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
Now, in Hebrew, this text is NOT speaking of the divine council of angelic beings, since the "You" in the text is second person SINGULAR, not plural, showing that the true God is being spoken of in that verse.
So no, I am not wrong, as my view has contextual backing and original Hebrew support.
@@CRoadwarrior would you like to tske this on a verse by verse conversation sometime tomorrow for thr sake of either of us growing and learning?
Guys, the clear meaning of what Jesus is saying is "the Scripture called those people gods, so why are you angry at me claiming to be the Son of God?" The "blasphemy" was Jesus saying that he and the Father are one, or that he is the actual emissary of the Father on the earth, hence "Son of God." He literally said "my hand" and then said his "Father's hand" as if they are one in the same. That was too much for them. But what Jesus told them was, the word of God was delivered to your forefathers, and that was enough for you to call them "gods." But yet I am doing the works of my Father, and you don't believe.
Guys, this is obvious.
By the time of Jesus a few traditions had development about these beings in order to get away from the polytheism which is obvious. The first was angles then judges, now at Jesus times those to whom the law came and eventually all humans who are born again can be called sons of God. In Jesus' rhetorical remarks and argument he does not quote the passage properly but the tradition and interpretation and uses that as a counter their implications of blasphemy.
Don't Xtians always use the gospel of John to prove Jesus is God and thus their dumb Trinity. Yet if Jesus was showing that Ps. 82 was about humans being called gods that would certainly diminish anything that rings of Jesus as such being unique as far as being called a god. His uniqueness would be his pre-incarnation status and his Father's mission on the cross so as to bring in many other sons of god thus receiving the name above all names. Being in the status of 'god' or existing prior to Abraham has no bearing on whether he is the God in regard to nature/essence issues. Do Xtians ever think through their arguments.
This is the problem with TH-cam theology. We are Christians are we not? Does that not mean something if not that we handle ourselves truthfully? But in this video there are untruthful and false arguments. Like the question, "decieved or dishonest?" False dilemma sir! You fail to recognize that he may be right. Was Jesus decieved? He translated this in the very same way. John 10:34,35
Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken...- Jesus
To whom the Word of God came! So im aware that Heiser and you have an explanation for this. Yet there is alternative consistent explanation on Dr Whites part and mine as well. This isn't a foundational issue. Yet you wish to slander him. Why? James doesn't believe demons and angels don't exist. He just doesn't interpret Psalm 82 the way you do. Why is it so tempting for you to make childish videos like this? -the slowing down and making his voice low and demonic sounding. It's so ridiculous. We serve a glorious Savior. Do something better with your time. Refute and explain how James is wrong instead of this. You present Heiser's view with respect. But James you present with mocking. Ungodliness for sure is this video.
Just be quite and sit down
@@washedinhisblood.3906 'quiet' not 'quite' friend, God bless
I love Dr. White. I don't think he's correct here, but you don't have to denigrate a brother in Christ as deceived or dishonest just because he's wrong. Nobody gets everything right, you ought to have more grace towards him.
It’s not denigration to correct somebody when they’re wrong. May we never tolerate false teaching.
Of course it's not denigration to correct somebody. But this is not how you are to correction someone Biblically.
Did you go to him directly?
Did you do it in a spirit of humility and out of love and concern for the other person?@@jacobmartinez5263
You totally got it wrong
Heiser's "divine council" theology is flawed because he twisted or otherwise distorted key passages, such as Psalm 82, Deuteronomy 32:8, 4:19, and others. I recommend reading the book "The Unbiblical Realm: Refuting the Divine Council of Michael Heiser’s Deuteronomy 32 Worldview" by Heath Henning.
Those interested in videos on this topic can check out my series called "The UnBiblical Realm: Refuting Michael Heiser's Divine Council w/Heath Henning. Heiser used his liberal education and imported the "divine council" idea into his evangelical views, and has duped the evangelical world into accepting liberal theology cloaked in evangelical garb.
Heiser has a doctorate and a masterful grasp of hebrew among other languages. He also always cites his sources.
Henning is just a guy from wisconsin who self publishes a lot. He has no formal education in any of the biblical languages. He just claims to know stuff.
@@vanuaturly So what? Most of the people on the "Jesus Seminar" have doctorates and so forth. Yet they would not know the real Jesus if He walked on water to them and said, "I am Jesus." So what does that prove?
Henning is not "just a guy" from Wisconsin. He has a working knowledge of both Hebrew and Greek. Life is not all about formal education. I started learning both Hebrew and Greek BEFORE graduate school, and then tested out of Greek 1 because I had learned it on my own well enough to skip Greek 1.
He doesn't just claim to "know stuff." He does know from study and taking classes. He just didn't have the money or time to do formal education because the man has 9 kids.
@CRoadwarrior you can't teach yourself a language and have a real knowledge of it. Enough to test out of level one, sure. But not a real depth of knowledge of the language. You need formal training.
@@CRoadwarrior I haven't seen anything from henning that wasn't biased by his particular tradition.
@@CRoadwarrior sure the Jesus seminar people are biased. And they will admit it. They are a dozen among thousands of scholars.
Jesus holds the answer of the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 in John 10.
Israel are the "gods" in Psalm 82, the "gods" are human NOT nonhuman meaning angels/spirit beings.
Israel was unique from the pagan nations that surrounded them, Israel had the law of God, 10 commandment, prophets and a Levitical priesthood. Since Israel had the law of God, it put Israel in the position of being "gods," (elohim), because God chose them, Israel was God's chosen people. They were chosen because of Christ.
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
1. >>>>"I said, “You are gods” >>>>>ONCE by the God (Father) in Psalm 82. Aspaph is the Author and Psalmist of Psalm 82. Prophets of the Old Testament like Asaph the "word of the Lord" would come to Prophets like Asaph. Prophets were the "Voice" of God. God (Father) would communicate His words through the prophets, God does that here in Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;">>>>>>>>Israel, Psalm 82 uses the word "all". This clearly is not about a bunch of watchers/super angels of a divine council. The Psalms were written to and for Israel.
2. SECOND time Jesus in John 10: 34 Repeats >>>> ‘I said, “You are gods” >>> Exodus 4:22 You are to say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the Lord says: “Israel is my firstborn son." If you know your bible Jacob is Israel and there would be 12 sons borns to Jacob, which make up the 12 tribes of Israel. When a person reads Psalm 82:6 when it mentions "sons" it is referring to the 12 tribes of Israel in the physical world.
In reality what a person can get from scripture is that Jesus tells us who the "gods/elohim" are in Psalm 82 when we read John 10 34-35. Jesus is the One who fulfills the words of the prophets from the OT in the NT, that is why Jesus REPEATED the exact words " I said, “You are gods, from Psalm 82 (God/Father) in John 10 (God/Son).
The gods/elohim/divine council in Psalm 82 are not disembodied spirits, angelic or nonhuman spirit beings, they are Israel, all of Israel (Jacob's descendents) would be human, which includes judges, elders, rulers, kings, and the common Isrealite citizen.
you did a very good job explaining this my friend... however it would seem that someone copied and pasted your same exact comment under your original one.
@@justinhemion6279 HMMM, Interesting, hopefully the person copied and pasted on other TH-cam channels about the subject matter of Psalm 82, glad you appreciated the comment. Jesus is the Reason.
You don't get to arbitrarily use John as the filter by which to 'interpret' the Psalm. I could use the Psalm to say John was wrong. The Psalm says what it says and the phrase bene elohim, bene ha elohim, and bene elim are never used of humans - PERIOD. Now elohim, not as plural, was used for Moses and David as God's representatives on earth. Those two are the most important figures in all Judaism. This was singular usage and thus the context is clear that these humans are not the God but act in his stead AS God. It is not ever used as a plural for humans and certainly not just any ole Israelite or even judges (see Josh.23:2 for 4 other words for leaders and Ex.18 for more) - there are other words for that. John takes it that way because it has do with his theology about becoming sons of God (in Hebrew bene elohim which was never used of any humans) and at his time the tradition that they were the leaders of Israel had developed already!
Traditions and interpretations had developed during the time between the Psalm and the time of John in order to diminish the clear polytheistic tones of this psalm and elsewhere. They first were thought actual children of God and a class above the malakim (angles). They then became malakim and then human judges or Israel. That's an interpretation not a translation. We know scribes edited texts in this manner.
You also fail to take into account that Jesus could be using a rhetorical - for the sake of argument - tactic. He would thus be quoting their TRADITON about the Psalm - that the judges of Israel were called gods. Thus, showing that their concern for his claims are not valid even according to their traditions - if true. Either way (I don't think he was for broader contextual reasons - I think he believed the tradition as well - but it is possible), Jesus does not quote the Psalm properly since it never mentions humans or judges, or leaders or anything else other than gods. Nor does it say at what point (the giving of the law) this happened in the Psalm. Plus, the Psalm says that they will die like Adam - how can that be if they are already going to die and already humans?
The ALL in the psalm refers to ALL those in the 'el ba adat' (the Divine Congregation) which are called elohim (gods) not judges or leaders etc. And as Ps.89 clearly says these are in heaven not earth.
This short clip well illustrates the scholarly debate on how to exegete Psalm 82. Elsewhere you will find some arguing for 'judges' and others for the 'divine council'. What it does clearly show is that the term 'God/god' has a range of meanings and is applied to others apart from the Most High including Moses; Hebrew Kings and Judges/angelic beings.
Jesus himself refers to Psalm 82 in his dispute with the religious leaders who wanted to know if he was the Christ. They asserted his claim to be God's son was akin to claiming to be a god. Jesus pointed them to Psalm 82 and made it clear that if others (Judges or angelic beings) can be called 'gods' then surely he can claim to be God's son.
White is not a scholar so there is no scholarly debate coming from him. He is grade-school level when it comes to an actual degree on anything. Heck, he claims he majored in biology and has shown he has no idea what biology even is. He is a liar and fraud. I have all his stuff and it is laughable.
Just look up the Hebrew word God(h430) in a lexicon and it plainly tells us Heiser is wrong on psalm 82 as it specifically says "rulers" or "judges"... by ALL REPUTABLE HEBREW SCHOLARS.... and The Lord Himself tells us there is ONLY One Divine-->
Isaiah 44:8 KJV - Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
No, they are telling you how it has been used - interpreted and acting as a translation - either ignorance or liars. It improperly refers to judges. Hebrew has a word for that and it is not elohim. Furthermore, even if elohim could be 'judges' the phrase bene elohim or bene ha elohim or bene elim (sons of God) is never used as such. Ps82; 89; Deut 32 (DSS) and elsewhere are clear.
In Exodus the requirement is to bring them to God - of course the servants (judges) of God would do that but that does not mean that they are elohim and certianly not the bene elohim. It is clear that passages in this vein have been altered to get away from this polytheistic tone and thus through out the transition to strict monotheism Jews and Xtians have interpreted things not translated them. And 2nd Isaiah is way late in this process. It was a later tradition that they were angles and judges. This is why Jesus in John uses it improperly.
I exodus regarding Moses it is obvious by context that he is not the God and as such act in his stead as an ambassador carrying the name of YHWH before Pharaoh. David was the only other person that was called God in that capacity.
@@veridicusmaximus6010 only One God.
Isaiah 43:
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
@@davidcrane6593 Sorry we are in Ps.82 and discussing vocab related to that - Is. did not write Ps.82 and you are assuming univocality and elevating Is. over and above other clear verses that other elohim actually exist. That's not proper exegesis and is bias towards your dogma of inspiration and inerrantcy!
@@veridicusmaximus6010the prophets do no conflict with one another... they are ALL Holy Ghost inspired-->
2 Peter 1:21 KJV - For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
This is why ALL the Hebrew scholars tell us "gods" (h430) means "rulers or judges".... there are no lesser "gods"
@@davidcrane6593 Assertion is not demonstration. And now you are onto 2 Peter which was not even written by him. LMAO! And no - all Hebrew scholar do not tell you that - that is absolutely asinine. And stop acting like you know anything about scholarship. And I already explained why - and you did counter any of it. There are plenty of words for 'rulers' or 'judges' - just read Exodus and Joshua. Elohim is not one of them.
Why don’t you just advise believers to do their own homework so real conversation can help us all to grow up in spiritual things. You should be all about teaching the Church how to do just that……..you could be wrong yourself! Go figure?
Have you finished medical school yet? Did you get your certification in geology yet? Why haven't you taken the time to do the in depth study required to fully and correctly understand the bible? Pastors WANT YOU to read and do your own research, but not everyone does, just like not everyone wants to be a Doctor.
Biblical study and understanding takes more than a lifetime to grasp, so why would you want a beginner Pastoring? Your statement shows that you have not thought this through very well.
There is no such thing as a person, denomination or Church that has all the correct answers. Each and every person living will have a different understanding of scripture because we all have grown up differently. The amazing thing is that the Bible is so comprehensive that no matter your personal circumstances it still applies in a very personal manner.
"I never knew you". I will be there in the clouds on His return when Jesus tells White and all the other Calvinists and false teachers what he thinks of the constant disrespect and mockery of Yahweh's word. Justice will be done.
If you disagree with Heiser please get his book the unseen realm. Once you read and understand it then come to the table with your arguments.
I promise that you won’t be a heretic for reading it and I promise you’ll learn that Mike isn’t a heretic either.
Heiser was a blind guide. He was correct in God/Elohim capital "G" and gods/elohim lower case "g" but his application was all wrong.
From Heiser's Chapter 1 Unseen Realm
"One such moment in my own life-the catalyst behind this book-came on a Sunday morning in church while I was in graduate school. I was chatting with a friend who, like me, was working on a PhD in Hebrew studies, killing a few minutes before the service started. I don’t recall much of the conversation, though I’m sure it was something about Old Testament theology. But I’ll never forget how it ended. My friend handed me his Hebrew Bible, open to Psalm 82 He said simply, “Here, read that … look at it closely.”
The first verse hit me like a bolt of lightning:
Psalm 82:1
God stands in the divine assembly;
he administers judgment in the midst of the gods
I’ve indicated the Hebrew wording that caught my eye and put my heart in my throat. The word elohim occurs twice in this short verse. Other than the covenant name, Yahweh, it’s the most common word in the Old Testament for God. And the first use of the word in this verse worked fine. But since I knew my Hebrew grammar, I saw immediately that the second instance needed to be translated as plural. There it was, plain as day: The God of the Old Testament was part of an assembly-a pantheon-of other gods."
>>>>Okay this is from Heiser’s book the “Unseen Realm” Chapter 1 in his opening of this book. Let’s look at the word “pantheon”, this one word changes everything about Heiser’s theory. Heiser’s view of pantheon of other gods is spiritual/non-human/angelic, what most people do not know is that the word pantheon has a dual meaning, so it is not just pantheon spiritual gods. Let’s look at dictionary definiton for the word “pantheon”
1) a group of particularly respected, famous, or important people: somewhat formal : a group of people who are famous or important
"the pantheon of the all-time greats"
example: a building in which the illustrious dead of a nation are buried or honoured.
2) all the gods of a people or religion collectively: the gods of a particular country or group of people
"the deities of the Hindu pantheon"
(especially in ancient Greece and Rome) a temple dedicated to all the gods.
So with the definition can apply to both 1) people and 2)pagan gods. What Heiser did when it came to Psalm 82, he applied the pagan god (elohim) meaning to the pantheon, which is the second use of the word pantheon, this is where he error's from the first chapter in his book the unseen realm.
What Heiser should have done is apply the “FIRST” meaning of the word pantheon to the gods/elohim in Psalm 82, which would be people. When a person applies the “FIRST” meaning Israel now fits in Psalm 82 as the gods/elohim. Israel is Jacob’s decendents made up of 12 tribes. Psalm 82 is totally about Israel (Jacob’s decendents). Israel is the “Chosen People” of God in that time period, Israel is important because Jesus Christ, the Messiah would come through that people group, Jesus came from the tribe of Judah, Judah is how we get the term “Jew” from.
So the pantheon of gods/elohim would be Israel all of Israel, which would consist of people that are Judges, Rulers, Kings, Elders and even the common Israelite person.
So when a person Pairs up Psalm 82 and John 10 Israel, Jacob's decendents/12 tribes makes more sense.
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;>>>>>>Israel
I believe you are missing the whole point. Forget the word "Pantheon". It's not in the Bible, it is a descriptive word most everyone takes as meaning, "more that one god". I would take it as he intended it to be taken. And, it appears you missed the whole point and teaching of the divine council. There are a number of places our modern church defines something based on our modern interpretation that does not track with what was a known and accepted belief in ancient Judaism. This being one of them. One has to ask, after 2500 years with a belief, why do we think we have a right to re interpret based on our own modern understanding? Do we have someone with a vision from God giving us a different interpretation? New revelation? What I read was just word salad based on modern interpretation and modern church doctrine.
@@brettmathews3191 What do you do with LUKE 22:44? Jesus is the fulfillment of what is written in the OT in the NT
Luke 24:44, Jesus speaking "Then he said to them, “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.”
Psalm 82 would be included with this when you look at John 10
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;>>>>>Jacob's decendents/Israel/humans being addressed, The Chosen People
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),">>>>>Jacob's decendents/Israel/ humans being addressed, The Chosen People
The Chosen People had the Law, word of the Lord come to them and they were to represent God and His Justice.
Point out in scripture where Heiser's pantheon gods/elohim/nonhuman/angels were given the law (Law of Moses) or in possession of the law, also when did the word of the Lord ever come to Heiser's pantheon gods/elohim/angels?????
Where are angels to represent God and his Justice?
Psalm 82:3-4
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
You can not answer any of these questions, sorry to tell you Heiser was wrong with his divine council of angels.
@@brettmathews3191 Not really, since my FAITH is in Christ that HE has ownership to telling us who the gods/elohim who are the Chosen People, your issue is NOT with me, it is with Jesus. Jesus is the ONE who fulfills what is in the OT in the NT, Heiser does not fulfill the OT. Heiser’s divine council of angels does not exist.
Israel is the divine council no questions asked. The Chosen People are the ones the Law and word of Lord came to not a bunch of angels. Israel, The Chosen People/Israel are to represent God and His Justice. Heiser’s view is nothing new, this kind of thinking existed even before Christ, so it is basically man centered thinking instead of Christ centered thinking.
@@End_of_Days the divine council is obvious to anyone who just really doesn't want it to be true. You're wrong. Heiser was right and has much, much better arguments than anything you wrote
Hebrew. “Elohim”. Never are humans called elohim.
Yes, they are. For instance: Moses is called Elohim in Exodus 7:1. Judges in Israel are called Elohim in Exodus 21:6.
@@richardmorgan3938 Dude? You need to read more carefully. First example is: “you will be LIKE God to pharaoh.
Second: Is about a slave choising to continue in the masters service. No mention of judges.
@@bradbrown2199 Thanks Brad, but I am a very careful reader. I also refrain from exegeting English translations. The word "like" is absent from the Hebrew text of Exodus 7:1 - וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה אֶל־מֹשֶׁה רְאֵה נְתַתִּיךָ אֱלֹהִים לְפַרְעֹה וְאַהֲרֹן אָחִיךָ יִהְיֶה נְבִיאֶֽךָ׃. The literal rendering is "I have made you God to Pharaoh." The NET translation note even admits "like" is an insertion by translators: 'The word “like” is added for clarity, making explicit the implied comparison in the statement “I have made you God to Pharaoh.” The word אֱלֹהִים (ʾelohim) is used a few times in the Bible for humans (e.g., Pss 45:6; 82:1), and always clearly in the sense of a subordinate to GOD-they are his representatives on earth. The explanation here goes back to 4:16. If Moses is like God in that Aaron is his prophet, then Moses is certainly like God to Pharaoh. Only Moses, then, is able to speak to Pharaoh with such authority, giving him commands.' So there you have it; biblical scholars agreeing with me. I don't make this stuff up. As for my other example, read it again and you will find the word elohim clearly there, in reference to the judges to whom the servant is brought.
@@richardmorgan3938 but the the connection is the same. You will God to Pharaoh is the idea of representation “like”. But this is your best to support Psalms 82 to mean judges? Sons of God is clearly A reference to spiritual beings. Psalms 89 would have jewish elders in the sky? Besides, to die like men as a pronounced judgement to men is silly. Elohim simply is referencing a spiritual being. Sometimes YWHW, other times angelic beings, even a departed human as w Samuel and Saul w the Endor witch. One Creator, a family of spiritual children, then.we came along. Let us make man in our image. Let us confuse their language. God’s bureaucracy is who he is talking with. Augustine did quite a number on Calvinists. Go bCk to earlier church fathers to see how this is referenced.
The other verse, has no judges in view. If so please zero on for me where I can find this. Or is this imported from somewhere else?
@@bradbrown2199 You are correct, that where elohim refers to beings other than Very God then it is used in terms of representation. Moses was not, literally, God, but he was called God because he represented God. That is true too for judges in Israel in such passages as Exodus 21:7. They do God's work and as such represent Him and are called by His name and/or title. Yes, this does support the idea that in Psalm 82 elohim refers to judges in Israel. Look at the psalm. It refers to the elohim making unjust judgments (v2). That cannot possibly refer to celestial immortal angels because they share in the divine nature and, as such, do not sin. Verse 3 tells us why these people are called elohim, because they should be administering God's justice - doing things on behalf of God. He brings justice to the orphans and widows and so should they. But they weren't representing God correctly and so "like men you shall die" (v7). That, too, cannot possibly be referring to celestial immortal angels because immortal beings cannot, by definition, die. Ergo. the psalm refers to mortal beings - human beings. It is perfectly simply. I have no idea what you're talking about re Augustine and Calvinists, nor do I really care what early church fathers said. I am interested in what the Bible says.
Who are the Princes of Greece and Persia in Daniel? These are unequivocally spirit creatures to seem to have dominion over nations. I think Heiser has got it right.
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If say man has the same exact faith as God and will and is holy in those things we can say that man is god like can we not.
For that is what we were created for and what we will do. So its ok for God to call us gods. But just know its God who is making that calling to signify the alignment with Him and not us to claim some desire
I know J. White from the Late 70's, he was always arrogant and self-important (I could tell a story, but I won.t) Dr. Heiser's mistake is the phrase 'divine council'...it should be "supernatural council'. Divinity is reserved for One. Heiser shouldn't have tried to emulate ancient Sumer or Egypt...they were wrong!
James White is deep in the hole, step one STOP DIGGING lol. You ever think that you're spending more time defending and explaining Calvin than the actual Bible?? Sorry but Heiser is eating your lunch
Lol, not in this lifetime. Lol!
To Aldo Herrera: I bet you do all these ridiculous videos because you are against the principles of Sovereign Grace. IDK. But that's usually why. Unbelievable. Do you know what Reformed epistemology is? Or what is your hermeneutic and view of Calvinist Theology? I haven't the time to check your profile.
This guy sucks at scripture study. Calvinists follow Calvin not Yahusha.
Typical Calvinist.
“Bend and Stretch, Reach for the Stars”
Heiser's entire construct falls apart when you understand who Satan really is in the Hebrew Scriptures and ancient Jewish mindset. th-cam.com/video/qVCHhcgxaXE/w-d-xo.html
Go home and stop contradicting a great scholar who actually does his homework! We who are serious about The Word Of God follow up on the hundreds of references Dr. Heiser offers, you should lay down your religious mind filters and at least be respectful to those who care about the truth! Shame on you!
Try again Mr White.
At 0:59, yes, the elohim (הָֽאֱלֹהִ֑ים), read as "judges" who are tasked to deliver individuals out of the hand of the wicked is seen in places like Exodus 21:6, 22:8. There is no exegetical reason to support Heiser's assertions, and yes, I've read his book.
Yeah there is! Those passages read to God not gods and certainly not judges.