Capital Punishment (& Prison Abolition) | Philosophy Tube
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BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Jonathan Allen, “How the Trump Administration Secured A Secret Supply of Execution Drugs,” in Reuters
Jasmine Andersson, “I am the UK’s Longest Serving Transgender Prisoner. This is What I’ve Learned,” in The i
Sarah Jane Baker Interviewed on the True Crime Podcast
Sarah Jane Baker, Transgender Behind Prison Walls
Dan Berger, Mariarme Kaba, David Stein, “What Abolitionists Do,” in Jacobin
Jeremy Bentham, The Rationale of Punishment
Brian P. Block & John Hostettler, Hanging in the Balance
Elizabeth Bruenig, “Abolish the Federal Death Penalty,” in The New York Times
Lisa Marie Cacho, Social Death
James Crimmins, “”A Hatchet For Paley’s Net”: Bentham on Capital Punishment and Judicial Discretion,” in Canadian Journal of Law and Jurisprudence
Angela Davis, Are Prisons Obsolete?
Camonghne Felix, “Aching for Abolition,” in The Cut
Phil Forder, Released Inside
Martin R. Gardner, “Renaissance of Retribution - an Examination of Doing Justice,” in Wisconsin Law Review
Brandon Garrett, “Why Jurors Are Rejecting the Death Penalty,” in Slate
Lisa Guenther, Solitary Confinement
Immanuel Kant, The Metaphysics of Morals
Jacob Kastrenakes, “Prisons Turn to Computer Algorithms for Deciding Who to Parole, in The Verge
Roger Lancaster, “How to End Mass Incarceration,” in Jacobin
Adam Lusher, “Laid to Rest at Last: Edith Thompson, Victim of a ‘Barbarous, Misogynistic’ Death Penalty,” in The Independent
Ben Mosche, “The Tension Between Abolition and Reform”
William Paley, “Of Crimes and Punishments,” in The Principles of Moral and Political Philosophy
Louis Pojman, “In Defence of the Death Penalty”
Jeffrey Reiman, “Against the Death Penalty”
Russ Shafer-Landau, “Retributivism and Desert”
Dean Spade, Normal Life
Shaun, “The Death Penalty feat. PragerU”
Alex Vitale, The End of Policing
Styling by Brian Conway
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Dress: Ralph Lauren
Gloves: Tender and Dangerous
MUSIC
'Waiting for Death' by Luke Levenson • Waiting for Death- Can...
#Prison #Abolition #Philosophy
"The more the problem was analysed, the sillier the solutions became"
first reply!!! hi you're very cool _✨_
Can't wait to get the reference :)
Exactly, just hear the words "legalize all drugs" out loud it a silly policy... right?
@Glaaki13
what? in what way did she do that?
@@Glaaki13 Yeah hey what's this about, never heard of it before
I have a lot of respect for Abby. She's looking real well for herself despite losing half of the skin on her face.
She's just flexing on Two Face.
She grew it back once she can do it again
I thought she was just a big fan of Ghost.
Ah yes. Haven't seen that look since Gus Fring
@@neuralmute ah, yes. I haven't heard them in a while, very good band, no?
"Christie was a former police officer"
Chat: I see where this is going.
For me it was when she mentioned how charming he was 🤣
"Christie was a former police officer"
Me: I'm SURE someone looked into his use of force during his career... right?
@@Falcrist Before he volunteered for the police he had been arrested for assaulting a woman but apparently somebody had "failed to check his records".
@@redactedredacted6656 oopsie!
ACAB
I'm against the death penalty but "it won't bother you for long" is a bad ass kill line.
Same honestly
It isn't called gallows humour for nothing
Stop it! You're killing me!
@@Lunacyk oh my god I hate that joke so much I love it
It is but still not as impressive as the most badass line uttered by someone being executed: Giles Corey. He was accused of being a witch in the Salem witch trials, and he refused to make a plea of innocent or guilty so they started pressing him with rocks to get a plea out of him and the only thing he said was "more weight".
"We tell them to prepare to re-enter society, while making them adapt to a brutal environment that is nothing like the rest of society. We tell them to develop the capacity to make better decisions, whilst taking almost all their decisions away. We tell them to learn and grow, whilst putting them in such stressful conditions that many become mentally unwell instead."
Sounds like (American) school.
It's a good point.
A lot of people want prisons to be a harsh place and like the thought that people are suffering behind bars. It's why a HUGE amount of prisons don't have air conditioning.
But I really challenge anyone who feels that way, someone who went to prison could be your neighbor in the future. Would you rather:
A. They be fed garbage with poor nutritional value and come out malnourished and sick, they are forced to sleep in unsanitary and unsafe conditions and develop chronic pain, breathing problems and PTSD, they are groomed into gang-like behavior, not because the people they are with are necessarily bad but because the prisons are designed to where only people with means can afford even necessities, where they leave with no money or resources because they made just enough money on their prison work to afford toothpaste for the month, but it still costs them for everything else, especially if they want to be in touch with the outside world.
B. They are fed balanced meals (though nothing fancy) and their health is monitored, they are able to sleep well and get mental health resources, they are given essential resources plus enough for a little bit of quality of life (but nothing too comfortable), and they leave with job training and just enough cash to get back on their feet.
Which would you rather have living next to you? Which would you feel safer in your neighborhood? If you had a loved one going through it, how would you want them to be treated, even if they did something absolutely awful? And which do you think has a better chance of staying out of prison and re-entering society successfully?
It also sounds like abusive households. The pattern is the same always
@@BL-sd2qwand just like harsh prison systems lead to a cycle of many people going in and out of prison, abusive households lead to a cycle where many people who grew up in abusive households go on to form them - they were never taught how to live any other way, and the environment they got out of didn’t prepare them for a healthy life, instead making it harder for them to have a healthy life.
“Women can be hanged, but they cannot be hung” Conservative party slogan 2048
Genuinely wouldn't surprise me!
You can see the future.
women can be hung, but nobody should be hanged
I fucking hope there isn't still a major party arguing against the reality of trans people in 2048.
i cackled when she said that
When I was younger, I was pro-death penalty; most of it just came from the household I grew up in, but at least a kernel of it came from a sincerely held belief. Then in my early twenties, one of my oldest friends was murdered in a truly nightmarish way that seriously fucked me up--and it still does, honestly. A lot of people I talked to about it asked me if I wanted her killers to be put to death, and that fucked me up to think about too. After confronting my own feelings, I eventually came to the decision that not only did I not want the death penalty for them, I also couldn't support the death penalty at all anymore. The point at which I pivoted was when I realized that, if I lobbied for the death penalty and they got it--even if it weren't me personally sticking the needles in their arms, even if I was just one voice among the crowd--I would be complicit in their killing. It wouldn't be the same as what they did to my friend, but, in the end, the results would be the same. I would not be acting in the name of justice, but just revenge.
Changing my opinion didn't come from some great act of moral contemplation, or of a cold, calculating determination of The Greater Good--and certainly not any sympathy for the devil bullshit--it was the simple choice that I did not want to be used by a machine that kills people. I refused to be part of a cycle of violence, and refused to perpetuate it. Call me a bleeding heart pacifist if you want, but that's where I stand.
I came back here to relisten to that wonderful outro but this was a great read, thanks for sharing.
You just earned deep respect of a random guy in the internet. :~)
Wow.
It’s quite the battle to preserve ones desire to remain innocent. But with that logic, do you source completely ethical products or is the invisible deaths in child labor for our phones, engagement rings, and shoes “negligible”, or something? It’s too great a machine to completely step out of. As much as we wish to be innocent, there’s blood on all our hands.
Since I’m not religious I don’t think they will go to hell. The hardest thing for a person to do is to live with their guilt (thus the root of op’s reason to be against the death penalty). For me, it’s that the death penalty lets them slip into peaceful darkness too soon for there to be “justice”, let alone it snuffs anyone from learning and denies the ability for one to change and grow.
@@It-b-Blair I completely see your point. There is no way to actually have no blood on our hands. There is no way to be completely innocent. But I'd like for people, including myself, to try to change, so there's less of the blood spilled in the first place. Of course, for things to truly change, some parts of our society would have to completely disappear or change, and it's not realistic to think they would in just a moment. It's about small steps that make the future better. And, most realistically, since it's so hard to determine what is right or wrong, since not all humans have the same opinions on the matter, it's most likely never going to be completely "good". But it's good to try for it to be less bad
When it comes to Evans' case, I feel a certain pain that he didn't get to mourn is family - that that time was spent mourning and pleading for his own life. It's like a threefold punishment for simply having the wrong neighbor.
You forgot the mourning of thinking that the killer of his wife and child would remain unpunished.
You are mentally ill and can’t get help. This makes me angry at people who were in psychiatric hospitals when they were teenagers.
Abby: "I will come back with a nice, easy to swallow theme, to not scare off people"
Also, Abby:
There's no nice and easy themes in this channel, there's only Life!
abby: oooh damn, i look good
que haces aqui camarada?
You know this was pretty easy to swallow honestly. Then again I'd listen to anything that Abby has to say and swallow it like honey.
agradable encontrarte aqui
“People are going to clip that out of context, aren’t they?”
Me, deleting the clip I just took: “...no?”
"Pwawnish mye myummy, nya!"
@@TheYahmez No! Bad! Bad Yahmez!
Ben Shapiro's clip is still out there ;)
@@minerva9104 I.. I was just quoting a friend.. 🙄
..although.. I find your response strangely encouraging..
:3
Drat. I missed something 😔
As someone who has been a victim of a crime - I was molested as a child - I have always been fascinated by people with an outsider-looking-in perspective on the criminal justice system. Personally, I found a lot of healing in the death of my abuser. It felt like I had permission to finally move on with my life, not carrying the fear that he could hurt anyone else. I even went to visit the guy who killed him, who was in for some drug offenses, and I thanked him. This video has been a great point of retrospection and self assessment for me. Thank god I have therapy this afternoon. Great work Abby. The hanging joke was quite funny as well.
It is fascinating, the ‘outsider-looking-in perspective’. I was molested as a child as well. It took me me 12 years to come to terms with what happened. When I told my partner, my parents and my siblings, they were surprisingly more angry than me. They wanted the man dead in the most gruesome way possible. It has been 2 years since I came to terms with this reality. But I don’t find it in myself to have the man hanged. I still don’t know if I would like him to be imprisoned longer than 4 years. He has a daughter and a kind-hearted wife. The consequence of his suffering extend deeper. I think whether my revenge brings justice to many. Surely, I would beat the shit out of him, and let his family know what he is done, leave a ‘pedo’ scar on his chest. But I still think, why am I motivated to desire this? Whether i truly desire this
@@MOMO-pd1ql Your sympathy for his wife and kids have nothing to do with what the perpetrator deserves. If we were to give lenient sentences because the people that love them would feel bad, then we shouldn't hold people who are lucky enough to have a loving circle responsible. Justice is separate from the victims that suffer the crime. I'm sorry about what has happened to you. Someone very close to me has suffered a similar past and I've seen how it has completely demolished her. And there are many more who suffer without that ability to move forward.
@@pyeclam You used the word "deserves". How do we decide what the perpetrator deserves? Is death something that someone might "deserve"? People thought it was, not long ago (and it some places they still think so). Life in prison? 30 years? 2 years? What is the difference between 2 and 30? How do you know they won't get back out there and commit the same crime again after 30 years? It's a tough conundrum. Also, the problem is that the state probably does nothing to fix the damage. In most of the world there is no mental healthcare system provided by the states, not a single thing that it does to really support the victims or their close ones. In fact, it's even worse than that, because sometimes the state actually refuses to acknowledge these crimes making it harder for the victims to report them.
Going back to the criminals, can they be rehabilitated and returned in society as better citizens or should they be locked up in a toxic place that might aggravate their behavior? One might say that keeping them in prison for as long as possible (depending on the severity of their crimes) is the best way to prevent them from committing other crimes. And it sounds pretty fair. I can't imagine how it is to be the victim of an abuse but can death represent a form of justice? To the victim, it might. But for most of the world... it's just wrong. In the other case, where the guy had a daughter... The thing is the daughter is also getting punished, in some way, for the actions of the parent. It might sound weird but we, as a society, are responsible for the kind of adults we "create" out of children, it's not just their parents. A generation of traumatized adults can only give birth to a new generation of traumatized children who will become traumatized adults so it's the world's duty to break that cycle.
In an ideal world, prisons wouldn't exist. But so far they're the best thing we could come up with to punish crime, although prison is a tool that we're using wrong. It's a gruesome place that creates more trauma than it heals. The problem is that there is nothing else after this punishment. No attempt to fix or prevent these things. No help for the victims or the criminals (yeah, I think they need help too). Is this really justice?
My abuser did die, and I still have complicated feelings on it... On the one hand, I don't think I would have gotten out otherwise. I definitely wouldn't have been able to feel safe if he were alive. But on the other, I feel like there's a sense of closure that I'll never have because he's not here to explain himself or to be *hurt*. It feels like he got off easy for being allowed to die after everything he did to me.
Florence is lame. You are alive. My aunt died because of someone who lost her mind.
“What is corruption but arbitrariness that someone has paid for?” Damn, I love the way you put things into words, so excellent 👌😌
_“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”_ - Gandalf
Thought about that, too.
Tolkien saw a lot of death in the trenches in WW1, stupid, sudden, arbitrary death. He wasn't very impressed with power after that.
@@ewetoo Sadly, he still retained his conservative bent and his fetish for medieval-esque, "unconstitutional monarchy". But yeah, he did have some anarchist-ish leanings, too.
Ah, my favourite philosopher, Gandalf the Grey.
Oh, goody, she chose a nice, light topic. I'm not going to need a beer after this at all.
*Immediate can open sound*
“Straight down the middle philosophy tube” she said...
Boy am I glad that I cracked a beer open right before seeing this new upload
She? Did "she" transition or is this a character? Help me please.
@@midnightscreamer2481 She transitioned. Her video "identity" makes it very clear and on her second channel she has a shorter dedicated coming out video explaining some basic things.
Huh. I never thought about it, but now I've realized that while I don't think criminals should be in prison because they "deserve it" as punishment, I DO think innocent people should be kept out of prison because they "don't deserve it".
I could justify that gut feeling from a consequentialist perspective if I cared to, but really I just feel that while punishment shouldn't be the purpose of justice, it is _permissible_ to treat criminals more harshly.
I have learned something about myself, and I do not like it.
That's why law should be made by a rational state, rather than emotional people. It's nothing wrong with you. I guess you can bring every human being to this point.
"Innocent shouldn't be imprison" is only a knock against consequencism if defined as the detetence part, not the rehabilitation part. And it's pretty reliably shown that as a deterrence not the most effective anyway.
It's nice that someone else wrote down my thoughts.
@@robertnett9793 The state is ran by people though…
@@daralic2255 yes. and that is the main problem and the main reason for laws to exist and for laws to keep human emotions as far as possible out of them.
It's alas a really short path from the warm fuzzy feeling of having had sweet revenge on that one notorious monstrous criminal - to valueing the act of revenge higher than things like having the right perpetrator...
I have just stumbled upon your channel. As a lover of philosophy, this is a crime! I'm happy and delighted, in spite of the many years deprived! My son is a trans man, and as a mother, I am grateful that I am his mother. Not all trans people are so lucky with their family. Anyway, I feel that I am the mother of all. Thanks for saying "YES" to your true self. Sending you big Love!!
This is so wholesome, i wish i had a mom like you
"What is corruption but arbitrariness that someone has paid for?" I needed a minute after that one.
Great quote.
Lots of political philosophy summed up in that quote.
@@frocco7125 Except it isn't. "Corruption is the unrestrained and autocratic use of authority enticed by coin" is just stating a definition.
@@jackiew6598 "Corruption is a personal whim guaranteed with a bribe." You can send me a Schock Prize.
@@satsubatsu347 do you want a cookie or something?
The truth is, we kicked Werner Herzog out of Germany, because his cheerful and uplifting attitude was considered way too disruptive to our culture.
Actually chuckled out loud when I read this
XD
At first, I laughed, but this is a guy who will go onto a show to play himself as apart of a joke, so I kinda buy it.
Zat's truly ze german way
I read this 2 minutes ago and I'm still giggling
It's pretty incredible what learning about death penalty and prison abolition and taking the next step to learning about restorative justice can do for your headspace. I feel a lot more personally at peace carrying the mindset that I would rather all the people who have intentionally and wrongfully hurt me have the chance to learn to be better people than be removed from society or this life entirely.
Lol you don't know how evil and wicked some people are. Someone rapes you ..and what you want them to get classes and therapy?
Overwhelming agree.
I’ve only brought this sort of thing up a few times with folks and most just haven’t agreed with me. One even said having the death penalty was just “easier.” Only a little poking revealed how flimsy that was, and he asked me to change the subject. So often people forget that these folks in restorative justice systems live with the things they’ve done. And worse, most of those folks also forget that the “repeat offender” of the current justice system is because of how prison works.
"justice was less of a rule, and more of a vibe"
fantastic line
“As a famous philosopher once said: facts don’t care about your feelings” lol, I love your humour
unless its his own feelings, those matter the most
Facts don't care about your feelings
They care about *my* feelings
Don't they?
😢😢😢😭
Man, can one count that weasel as a philosopher though? Joke or not.
@@hungrygrimalkin5610 I mean it comes back to philosophy doesn't it: what exactly is a philosopher?
That said I don't consider him one, he's just a sad boy.
I don't quite understand the joke tbh.
I wrote a pro capital punishment paper for my high school English class and in the process became anti capital punishment. It’s incredibly flimsy logic that holds the whole thing together
“if the government won’t allow me to kill my sister’s rapist, then the government should kill them instead”, is something i read awhile ago, and i still don’t know how to react to it
Oh, I did too! But it was only for pedophilic-rapists-murderers, and it stayed as pro :•) Now I'm anti, but at the time my group and I simply decided that yeah, they deserved to unalive.
@@ghostinshellshock yep also there are multiple cases of the ppl doing the executing suffering long term or permanent trauma. imo no one should be coerced or encouraged to kill another person, especially not as part of their job!
I did the same thing in college but mine went from pro capital punishment all the way to prison abolishment lol
@@amagicallaura I love me some retribution, but satisfying personal bloodlust is outweighed by the moral injury to the executioners and the risk of executing an innocent.
I knew Michael Perry personally when we were both held in an extremely abusive private "behavioral modification center" as teens in Ensenada, Mexico. I think that experience fucked him up very badly, and his parents essentially abandoned him afterwards. I often think about how things might have gone differently if he had not been subject to that abuse and abandonment.
One of the scary things about serial killers is that "that we know of" is something that is implied.
no, the scary thing is that it is implied for everybody.
I haven't killed any people that you know of and neither have you killed any people that I know of
@@sehfisch2350 😨
"The cruelest fate that English minds can devise: being sent to live in Australia" I laughed so hard at that
Is this technically a reference to indentured servitude? As someone who's watched Jennifer Kent's The Nightingale, I had to shudder a bit.
@@davidbjacobs3598 Australia used to be a British penal colony....
I realised recently that a lot of sea shanties I know are about being sent to Australia, like 'South Australia' "We're bound for South Australia", and 'Cape Cod Girls' "we're bound away for Australia"
I’d hate it too. (Canadian)
@@davidbjacobs3598 Prison colony intensifies
Remember that joke that the average number of spiders you eat comes from guy that just ate a LOT of spiders? That's the murder graph.
That's true of most things.
Was that the Georg meme? I never saw the original
Murders Georg
Someone ate a lot of spiders??
@@AntiEmoPizza There's an old oft-quoted figure that the average person eats 6 spiders annually. The joke, then, is that "Spiders Georg, who eats a thousand spiders daily, is an outlier and should not have been counted".
"But you can't execute somebody a little bit." Was brilliantly delivered 👏
Abbi: reveals she's a woman
Me: so anyway I started simping
Same. She is the best
IMPLYING WE WEREN'T BEFORE
Same, honestly
I was always simping 👀
My ears are in bliss, the voice soothes my aches.
Something else to note about the Evans case. Evans at one point tried to tell people the police had BEATEN him into giving a confession, but no one believed him because the person he said committed the crime was *also* a police-officer. So also a fantastic example of the corruption of Police Departments.
wow
The police is "a corps", of people who help each other... Just like a family... But family members have been known to try to help their kin even when they did awful things...
This is why the Police should be kept in check by an independent department (not like in my country, somehow, where policemen can beat a black man shouting "get this, you nigger!!" for no reason, filmed by cameras the whole time, trying to blame the guy for a fictional "rebellion" against them and charge him wrongly with it, and the "internal affairs" department finds nothing to say about the case... Yep...-_-).
That's why in Brazil's courts the only confession that really counts is the one you do in court, not the one to the police. Almost everybody confesses to whatever the police says you did since it was probably done under violence or by not even explaining properly what you are being accused of. Unless, of course, if you're rich, then the police treats you like royalty.
@@annabela.1673 At least the courts compensate for the polic corruption to an extent?
Thank goodness for bodycams, dashcams, phones and the like. With the amount of videos of police corruption out there just think how many innocent people fell victim to police corruption before everyone had a recording device.
Well I never thought I'd be adding "stealing fruit from the Prime Minister's garden" to my bucket list but hey, it's been a weird year-and-a-bit.
Johnson's asking for it
Sign me up
Yank here. Thirded.
On it
As a psychology grad, I love that she said "myers-briggs astrology type" because that's what it actually is! I hate it when psychological terms are used as a flavour to make something sound more credible when they are not reliable measures, and now MBTI is very popular because it sounds science-y when it doesn't really say much about you other than how you were feeling at the time of taking the test. You are a whole person, you cannot be summarized by a 4-5 letter personality type. It makes me feel like hearing the Iphone alarm sound when I see ENTP-J type of abbreviations in people's bios lol. AN ONLINE TEST RESULT DOES NOT DEFINE YOU JUST LIKE YOUR SIGN DOESN'T!
just as your gender or preferred pronouns or sexual preferences don't.
@@porgguy4962 yeah but gender and sexuality are actual things about your personality, it's a factor and a characteristic, it's not like mbti at all because mbti isn't one factor, it's meant to quantify your entire personality
@@redditastic6711 Okay so MB attempts to measure multiple factors while gender and preferred pronouns are other factors of a persons personality. The point is none of them on there own define a person. I was responding to this portion of the above comment - "AN ONLINE TEST RESULT DOES NOT DEFINE YOU JUST LIKE YOUR SIGN DOESN'T!"
But as MB focuses on multiple aspects it theoretically does a better job at describing in shorthand a persons personality than does gender or pronouns.
Can't get over how effective the gavel is as a prop in this video. Reversing it to act as a lever was kinda a genius move.
I'm still traumatized about the boy who was hanged for stealing a spoon.
I try not to think about how many lives were wasted and robbed of opportunity just because of some petty crimes, even more so back then... because it never fails to put me in a bad trip.
This is why I never understood the 10 commandments. Commandment number 8 said don’t steal, but what if a homeless child steals and piece of fruit to survive? Just like commandment number 5 says honor your parents, but what if your parents are abusive assholes?
@@criticalthinkingconcubus I'm not trying to attack you, so please don't take this the wrong way, but if those are the examples you're going to highlight to illustrate your lack of understanding of the commandments, it suggests that you have not actually put any effort into trying to understand them - these sorts of simple examples aren't new and have been addressed many times. Now I'm no religious scholar myself, and I understand that one can cherry-pick from the many rigid, fanatical implementations you would expect of a religion thousands of years old, but what I've gleaned suggests that the commandments are more about guidance on how to try and live your life, not rigid rules that should be followed as irrationally as possible.
In your example with the child, using some the life that they gained from stealing the fruit in order to pay back the person they stole it from in some way would hardly be sinful. Similarly, with the abusive parents the commandment is about living long and prosperously, so watching and learning from their example to make yourself a better person would honor them without being their servant or something.
@@mylesleggette4539 I don’t agree with you, but your arguments are well written and you clearly aren’t trying to hurt anyone with what you’re saying. I will actually think about your arguments for the commandments. Thanks for being civil with your opposition, in my opinion it’s a thing that the world seems to be lacking these days.
@@mylesleggette4539 If you have abusive parents and succeed and live a good life despite it, its more of a F. U. to the parents than honoring them.
“Women can be hanged, but they cannot be hung!”
And I believe we have a new contender for greatest joke of the century
I'm dying. (not because I'm being hanged.)
Psh. Anything more than 5" is just for show anyway 😏
Eh, it was an alright joke. Not the greatest ever made or even the greatest she ever made.
It wasn't even the best joke Abby ever made come on.
I don't get it :(
Really fascinating to learn this from a specifically British perspective. I wasn’t expecting there to be such a different lens of nuance to the capital punishment and prison abolition conversations in the US while still holding fundamental similarities. Something that I’m guessing is both a similarity and difference is that, in the US, capital punishment and incarceration are some of the most visible structures of systemic racism and most obvious ways the legacy of slavery is maintained.
I would never get a job as an executor. I don’t believe in the death penalty. It’s like you killed someone’ so we have the right to kill you. Like what if the executor is many years older than the person who got the death penalty.
The last words of John Spenklenk before being electrocuted:
“Capital Punishment: Thise without the capital get the punishment.”
Correction: “those”
(My normal sized fingers on a tiny screen, not for the clumsy…)
“justice was less of a rule and more of a vibe” this is HILARIOUS
Honestly still true today, at least here in the US
still is
As it scary, and srill kinda true 😅
@@TheAyanamiRei trueeee
"Charles Dickens, the author of... the Muppet Christmas Carol."
Oh my god.
Pardon my simping, but that smile at the 10 second mark is stunning.
I mean...she's not wrong!
I am screaming
Haha. I had to pause the video while i finished laughing at the very dry and straight delivery of that.
One of the finest novels of our time!
Well, it *is* the best adaptation
I remember my Dad would tell me the Ruth Ellis story literally every time we'd walk by the pub she shot that guy in, weird story to tell a 6 year old 😅
I hear the bullet holes are still there; did you see them?
@@BinturongGirl yes they are! It was why he would always bring up the topic hehe
As a criminal Justice minor, a Psychiatric patient transport specialist for a security company and a fulltime firefighter I can say that these questions about the American justice system are always debated but rarely talked about openly. It’s like we all can laugh that there is a problem but no one knows who will fix it… maybe that’s why change takes so long. We all have to push to fix it. Not just wait for someone to magic it all away.
I would imagine that the USA would have to first abolish the Second Amendment, as a precursor to tackling the systemic violence in its society, that makes everyone so afraid of one another that they want guns in the first place. Then maybe less murder, and less obsession with killing, and fewer wanting to retain capital punishment.
So one thing I'll say as someone who works with a lot of clients that spent time incarcerated, all it does is get them used to living in that system. So many of my clients struggle to adapt to the rules of treatment or normal life because they have spent years having to follow the rules of incarceration. They had to do things and act certain ways to survive that do not translate well to the real world, and they often struggle with adapting their behaviors. Prison does not help people, if anything it makes them more likely to return to it because it becomes the only way of life they know.
I think about this sometimes. It first really hit me once during college when one of my classes took a field trip to a prison. We went on a tour that was guided by some of the inmates. One of them was serving a life sentence and had been there since the 1980s (it was the early 2010s at the time). He asked us about the town our college was in and mentioned that he had heard it was really up and coming. We told him that yes, it was a pretty sizeable town, about 150,000 people total. He said that when he went to prison, it was just a little place. I grew up there, so I knew that he was exactly right. It was only about 40,000 people when he was imprisoned. It suddenly struck me just how much had changed since he was last out in the normal world and what extreme culture shock he would face if he somehow miraculously had his sentence commuted and got out of prison. I just thought, how would you adjust to that? After so much time in prison, it would probably be easier to just go back to prison, which you had adapted to, then to have to start all over and try to adjust to life on the outside. Ever since then, I have thought that prison truly does not do enough to prepare people to return to free life.
That reminds me a lot of guy that lived next door to me. He had been incarcerated many time for really petty offenses. And he seemed to have gotten so used to the structured that jailtime provided that he couldn't really handle freedom anymore. He talked in such a proud way about exceeding the expectations of the prison guards and befriending them. But left to his own devices he would get in trouble faster than you could even see. His consumption if alcohol was probably the most obvious example.
Sounds like a good argument for capital punishment.
@@ragequit7151 OR it sounds like we could make our prisons more about rehabilitation and correction away from those they know and love but still with the same basic social rules and less about shoving people into an inhumane environment with punishment after punishment even for the pettiest of crimes and then being shocked when they struggle to readjust to the world years later.
@@TahtahmesDiary For non-violent criminals? Sure. For rapists and murderers? Nah.
Capital punishment: where if you have the capital, you avoid the punishment
AND I OOP-
👀
Can't be hanged for steeling a silver spoon if you were born with one in your mouth.
@@OneEyeShadow But your economical position as a capitalist (since you compete with other capitalists for resources and labour) forces you to take more silver spoons, if necessary by illegal means.
Only, if your collection of silver spoons is big enough, you can share so many silver spoons with lawmakers that they don't mind you (at least, if you steal silver spoons outside of their jurisdiction, e. g. in a different country).
A rich friend of the family once told me "life is a sh*t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less sh*t you eat."
I don't know why, but the closed caption of "Jazzy sexy music" made me so happy :)
It made me giggle ^_^
@@justjukka She made me giggle ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Something that actually cropped up in my a level sociology. Countries that have reformative prison systems and more 'comfortable' prisons have lower crime rates across the board with massively less antisocial crimes committed than countries like the UK and America where prisoners are villified
"What is corruption but arbitrariness that someone has paid for"
_Yooooooooooo!_ 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
Take that, WandaVision!
"So justice was less of a rule and more of a vibe." 💀
cop: vibe check!! * shoots you *
Last year I was called for jury selection. I believe the screening process is essentially the same in all states of the US. I reside in what is considered to be a more liberal one. I had finally made it to the open verbal part of the selection process where the attorneys for each side was allowed to ask us questions. As I sat, waiting to be called on, I noticed that individuals that were most likely less fortunate than myself, and subsequently less educated, were very much appreciated, especially by the prosecution. When I was given a question to answer aloud in front of fourty others, I did so with as much objectivity as possible. I wanted them to know that I could appreciate every option to the likelihood of guilt or Innocence; I would not be quick to find anyone guilty unless there was undeniable evidence, and the prosecution crossed all their T's and dotted all their I's. I was openly mocked by the prosecuting attorney and there wasn't a darn thing I could do about it. I was used as an example to the other's.
All it takes is one side that doesn't want one to sit on the jury and you're gone. Most people pray that they won't be selected. You miss work and the money you get for your civic duty is nothing compared to what you could have earned. But it was the first time I had gotten that far in being selected to sit on the jury, and I really wanted the experience. It turned out that the individual was a young hisbanic man who had been in trouble with the law before. The courts never release the details of the trial you could have been a part of. It's really by process of elimination and independent research that you're able to figure things out.
The fact is that I got to see the dirty underbelly of the US justice system. If your skin is anything but white, and there are those that want you put away, God help you.
What's the solution? Well, call me naive, but I believe in education. We need to focus more on rehabilitation. I don't expect to churn out brain surgeons, but help them to achieve something.
"Given the cruellest fate that English minds can devise: being sent to live in Australia"
As a white Australian, I do agree that my ancestors shouldn’t have been sent to Australia
Herzog impression: “The dirty dishes.. in the sink. To me.. they represent mayhem and death.”
Spot on there.
_ZE SAUCES!_
The scene was giving me Jordan Peterson themed Vietnam flashbacks...
Ze dishes... zey do not sing when you clean zem. It's like zey are screaming.
Herzog*
@@appleslover Thank you,
“People are gonna clip that out of context, aren’t they?” She knows us so well
For real lol
Well, she does deliver great clipping with no context material to be honest.
I'm probably going to use that against people who are total POSs.
he*
@@DerPro-fu6ps just no
I am so thankful that we are now living in a time where I can access these pieces of knowledge here where I could not even dream of it before. We can't even study philosophy here in my country unless in very selective and impossible-to-get-into universities. Thank you for making Philosophy accessible to me Philosophy Tube. Much love and gratitude. Capital punishment is 100% the norm where I live, I always wondered if I could hear all sides of it like this.
What country do you live in where philosophy is so hard to study?
@@BillyBasd Bangladesh.
It's much easier for some people to study philosophy than others... I'm part of the others (most people are).
Me too I’m very thankful to be born in the 21st century. I’m
Grateful to have access to unlimited information at the touch of my fingertips
@@kurayamiknight2337hello fellow Bengali the education systems so shit here
I've literally put the quote "The more the problem was analyzed, the sillier the solutions become" on my door. Indeed, more Humanities-related departments should have it on theirs.
I'm a History undergrad, btw. The main thing I've been learning from my studies is that social constructs in general do tend to get more nonsensical the more you study them. Humans are weird, period.
Yet another example why people that don't study law shouldn't dabble in, well, legal systems. You don't understand law because you learn that "social constructs" exist.
I've seen people both denounce the presumption of innocence/principle of legality, AND denounce punishment _at the same time_ , during 2020 "summer of love". It's this crazy thing where humanities students and activists decided it's time to "dismantle concepts" and in the process ruin everything.
To me it seems like it's specifically Western women that get conflicted regarding these principles. I think it's mostly a result of virtue signalling. You'll see them sympathizing with criminals being arrested in El Salvador, but then they'll proudly exclaim how "presumption of innocence is a social concept" as well.
*Sees new PhilosophyTube video*
"My happiness is immeasurable and my day is made"
yess!!!
you mean my appointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
Me: *consumes the content of said video*
"I am unbearably sober and my day is ruined."
nice
Exactly
“...because Britain hates it when people are cool”. Lmao thats the tshirt.
Wouldn't expect anything less from good ol' TERF island
You can even make a German version of it as well.
@that guy, over yonder trans healthcare is a shit in Britain - the NHS is far worse than American healthcare when it comes to this. Also it’s infested with the likes of J.K. Rowling. Just because the govt passed one piece of pro-trans legislation doesn’t erase all the transphobia that currently exists in the UK.
Half this video needs to be on t-shirt. So many good lines.
“It won’t bother you for long.” Is a hell of a line
Abigail Thorne: the only person who can have me pissing myself laughing during a video about Capital Punishment and Prison Abolition
"It won't bother you for long." Damn those British hangmen have some sick one-liners.
Eh, that one was a low hanging fruit
"just hang in there one moment"
Hang on- are you guys making puns over here?
Well... We do have James Bond. Who isn’t far from a hangman.
Don't forget the guys who made similar jokes about their own execution. "Surely this is a thing that cures all ills" or "I owe the church of healing a hen".
Can I just say - the maneuver of flipping the gavel around and turning it into the lever that hangs people was NIFTY AS HELL
The way she pulled it lookedreal too lol
_Right?_ She really found the handle. That's mime skills!
It was like the fucking kirkhammer from Bloodborne, that's fuckin cool
My older brother was in prison for like 15 years but Everytime we talked to someone who had experience in the field they were surprised by the length of the sentence. They would have thought maybe 5-7 years. It was literally because where he was pulled over. The county just cracks down extremely hard on anyone not from their county and come on extremely hard.
Not to mention the officer who arrested him illegally took his confession despite him being far too intoxicated to actually being able to consent to a confession etc.
What did he do?
@@Wesker10000 "Pulled over" plus "far too intoxicated" suggest DUI. Which... 15 years is extremely excessive for that, but if he drove while too drunk to consent to confession, he should not be on the road for a very long time if ever.
@@SaraWolffs Excessive? You think so?
My father was killed by a drunk driver. Fuck em' all.
@@Wesker10000 15 years of prison? Honestly I'm not sure I'd do that to a murderer with malice aforethought. Never drive again? Yeah I'd support that.
@@SaraWolffs You just wait until one of those people kills someone you love.
What you're saying is really easy to say until that happens to you.
Drunk drivers put the lives of everyone at risk. They are scum.
Fuck em
This is reductive, but I always went by 2 pieces to be anti-death-penalty. The first is since it's never 100% possible to not execute someone unjustly and death is permanent, it's not worth the risk. The other piece is that intentional killing always has negative consequences somewhere (it's why murder is so devastating), and there's no way to prevent these from happening from an execution.
"Whomst amongst us has never bumped into the other building serial killer on our way to the backyard ditch with our matching strangled bodies" - The UK
hehe sus amogus
i thought all of the uk was like midsomer murders, everyone except barnaby are murderers
This is such a regular issue that the government really needs to step in and do something about it.
And when you say it like that, it really says something about politicians.
"Whomst" made me cackle.
My Myers-Briggs astrology type makes me predisposed to civil unrest.
Found the entp /j
I'm glad that I am not alone in my feelings for Meyers Briggs personality types. INTJ-female.
« Thé moment I realized those thoughts were coming from me I realized I had a choice about whether or not to indulge them » 👏
French
The Evans case was basically “We’ve investigated ourselves and found nothing wrong”
"Ze derty dishes in ze sink, to me zey represent mayhem end deth." was so incerdibly funny to me
Don't forget ze abandoned sauce in ze cupboard.
I gagged hahahha
I mean "mayhem and death" is a pretty odd way to say "crippling depression and disabling mental illness" but yeah I can actually agree with that analysis on the surface
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”
That’s pretty good
@@supereggtartersauce6464 gandalf from lord of the rings (JRR Tolkien)
Thanks Gandalf
And Gandalf was right because Gollum's terrible actions directly helped save Middle Earth!
@@Merlincat007 The lasting thing I think about is how Middle Earth and Arda were saved by Gollum forcibly taking the Ring from a possessed Frodo, then accidently falling into Mt. Doom's lava when he was jumping for joy. Sam pushed him off in the movie, but in the book Gollum jumped off because he wasn't paying attention to where he was going.
So the spoon instantly made me think of Sir Terry Pratchett's Nobby Nobbs. But then the bit about the longbow on one leg on a Tuesday was the real easter egg
There was an interesting moment around where I live (suburban East Coast USA, for context), where there was an escaped convict loose for a week or two. He was definitely guilty of awful stuff, but seeing the outright celebration of his recapture by the community just sickened me. It wasn't relief for safety, (he WAS armed) it felt like this gross rejoicing of the government keeping someone in their place. Even the police seemed to treat his capture like a hunting trip. (Astoundingly, they didn't shoot the guy, but had to pose for a photo with him like he was a prize buck) People were excited by the prospect of him suffering.
I think a primary hurdle to reform is reminding people that criminals are still human beings. There's a need to believe in a "criminal class" that legitimizes and ennobles government authority, and disguises classism and racism, still creating an out-group that must be kept under control. Just don't think about how many of them are from already-marginalized groups.
I remember an arguement I had some years ago about Capital Punishment, I asked the person "What happens if you kill the wrong person?", the answer shocked me "It doesn't matter as long as you mostly get the right ones". I had absolutely no answer to that and still don't.
That's sick...
That’s one of those “I don’t know how to explain that you should care about other people” sorta moments
I would ask the person what "mostly" means. Like, at least 75% of the people executed are guilty? At least 50%? Why that number? And as soon as the percentage truly guilty dips to 49%--which we'd never know anyway, we do what exactly? I also wonder if the person you're arguing with thinks that many more murders are solved (or "cleared") than really are. If "mostly" actually means "most of the people who have indeed murdered someone are captured and executed", then maybe they hold a utilitarian viewpoint. But with the true clearance rate of homicides being as low as it is (meaning, most murderers face no consequence), it's so much harder to justify killing innocent people.
My reply whenever I run into one of those people is to ask "Well ok then. What if it's *you?* Are you ok with being killed for a crime you didn't do? What if it's someone you care deeply about? Are you fine watching them die for a crime you know for a fact they're innocent of?"
Sadly, I either don't get a reply after that or they deflect with a "Well, that'd *never* happen to me" and then refuse the engage further. :s
I've written to two death row inmates and wanted to write more.
I'm someone that views the death penalty as murder. I only view self defense and to defend another as a valid reason to kill someone. I'm American so my aversion to the death penalty is not really something you hear about. So many Americans are for it and I can't vote because of the death penalty. I don't vote for moral reasons and one of them is I'm against the death penalty. I don't want to feel like I'm apart of helping the government murder people which I don't know any American political person openly against it. I at times HATE people that are for the death penalty. They are not doing anything good but destroying peace. I often view pro DP people as twisted weak overly emotional people. I don't trust people who wanna kill people to show killing people is wrong, why would I?? What logic do they have??
I'm truly sorry for sounding like I'm judging but I hate that I live in a vengeful society that values legalized murder as Justice. No justice or peace with the death penalty. I love places like Europe and the UK who don't have it well most of Europe anyway. I love Norway's views of prisons.
No one likes to mention the executed family because it's easier to not view the family as a grieving family. We only talk about the crime victim's family which I find wrong. Once a person has been executed now the family suffers but Americas weak ass society doesn't want to think no about that. They only talk about how closure will happen once the person is executed. That's far from the truth. We don't wanna talk about how it effects prison worker's either. It's just a seriously fucked up thing that happens over here in the US. The death penalty is one of the top 3 reasons I hate living in the US.
That chair is quickly becoming iconic.
Mastermind chair beats it
My favourite author, Fyodor Dostoyevsky, wrote about death penalty so beautifully in his novel "The Idiot". He himself was sentenced death penalty by Tsar for anti-tsardom socity I'm not going to discuss here, but his death penalty was changed to Prison in Siberia just as he was standing against the shooting squad.
He described his "last moments" before getting shot with such details it's incredible. If I say that part of the "The Idiot" is life-changing, I would not be doing justice to it. You can't see death penalty the same way after reading that part.
He was very openly against death penalties. He gave many strong points against it. One of his points is, "Everyone have right for redemption. Taking someone's life is the biggest thing that you can deny someone. Their life and their chance of redemption."
He said such severe criminals can be sent to isolated prison (like Siberia) and their they can realise the seriousness of the crime they committed and can have a right to redeem themselves infront of God.
As a character in Final Fantasy Tactics said: "If the penalty for a crime is a fine, that law only exists for the lower classes."
Fines should be proportional to wealth.
make the millionaire spent 50k on a parking ticket and the billionaire 50million for driving too fast.
@@gregoryford2532 yes of course, but I would argue it would still be better than to not have it.
Also: at least those who hold public stocks and stuff like that cannot hide that. I'm not saying scale it on income, scale it on wealth.
And if they don't have the money to pay the fines because it is in a stock and not cash/in a bank account. Tough luck, looks like they will have to sell some stock then.
I love the quote, but Wiegraf never actually says it in the game. It would be completely in character for him, but the image you probably saw it in is photoshopped.
I'm torn between making a comment that is actually on topic and relevant to the discussion, versus letting my gay brain scream about Abigail's EVERYTHING
Thank you. I'm a minute in and Jesus Christ
I wonder if anyone prepared her for the wlw. everyone expects the transphobes, but nobody expects the sapphics and our adoration. I actually had to watch the beginning twice because I got so distracted just thinking about how pretty she is and how beautifully her hair falls
@@riannaf927 nobody is prepared for the sapphic inquisition
Mood
@@marinary1326 oh my god, I'm making that my bio when I eventually come out
It’s so eye opening to me, a small town cis guy who barely had any interaction with trans people, to see Abigail’s entire journey from identifying as male, to being closeted (on her channel) and now as an out transwoman. I think I learned a lot from the observation of her journey, even as a passive and until recently unknowing viewer.
I would recommend another high profile trans youtuber.. but apparently she's cancelled here? :/ I must've missed something. the one who offers 'counter-perspectives'. Or maybe it was my placing 'Trans Community' in quotations that's getting my comment flagged? I don't identify with the online 'Community' of trans people because of the amount of gatekeeping, toxicity and in fighting, even though I identify as NB. Same story with "The Gamers" ™
EDIT:
What I was originally trying to say is that _'Converse-Dots'_ taught me a lot about myself and the trans community through her beautiful, stylised Socratic dialogs.
My brain loves meta commentary. Would recommend 😘👌
@@TheYahmez loud people have a way of making it look like they're the majority. I resonate with your comment and also raise whether or not a 'singular' trans community exists, and whether it's possible to be a part of that community without owning a perceived monolithic perspective of that community. FTR, this trans guy loves Contrarian Spikes. 💜
As a small town trans woman, I'm glad Abigail and others like her (and the internet) are putting us out there so that people even out in rural areas can engage with our experiences and realize that it's entirely possible someone you know is trans and closeted. Often for safety or other forms of stability.
@@TheYahmez seems like there might be a filter against that channel's name...
@@bosch992 Thats quite weird. Might just be a way to prevent hate mobs tho
Rewatching your videos and I forgot just how good the ending is. The drama. The editing. The song choice after that line delivery. I AM GOING CRAZY!!!!! It is so so good.
This video is like an amalgam of my uni seminars and all the tutors I was in love with
It’s also fascinating and some of the best content on the internet
This line from the Brothers Karamazov hit me pretty hard.
"Do you know that centuries will pass and mankind will proclaim with the mouth of its wisdom and science that there is no crime, and therefore no sin, but only hungry men? Feed them first, then ask virtue of them."
💛
Not only did I like this comment, I have screenshot it for future reference
For real, though. Desperate people act on predictable, desperate ways. This is a great quote, thank you
plenty of people have all that they need and still choose to be serial killers.
@@Bat-Georgi depends on your definition of "plenty." Despite what you might think, serial killers are very, very rare.
"People are gonna clip that out of context, aren't they?"
Say what you will, but the woman knows her fanbase
:)
I'm pretty sure that's a dude.
@@owlobsidian6965please shut up
@@owlobsidian6965 You'd be pretty wrong, then
@@owlobsidian6965 she’s a woman
Funny thing about Evans' execution. The folk singer Ewan MacColl wrote a song titled The Ballad of Tim Evans. The final line of the song is "It was Christy was the murderer and the judge and jury too." This part got cut out by a lot of broadcasters who used the song for news programs and documentaries, because it made them uncomfortable. We wouldn't want to use the free press to criticize our fair and just legal system, right?
I've discovered this channel recently, I have been binge watching it for 3 whole days now. Very, very good production. Love it.
I have to say, the skull makeup in this one was so satisfying to to look at. The way it moved with your eyebrow was like how they make skeleton characters emote in cartoons (and I mean that in the nicest way)
As soon as I saw her, I immediately stopped the video to look at it some more. It stunned me how good it looks
She reminded me of Sans.
it's strange to hear these arguments from a british point of view. as someone in the united states, it's like someone commenting on their barbecue pit in the back yard (garden?) starting an out of control fire that "ruined the whole thing", while i'm watching them from my living room with the whole house on fire. this is fine, right?
Yeah, the absolute wildfire that is raging on there makes me happy for the ocean between us. :P
Honestly, even though I'm not a fan of capital punishment, capital punishment probably doesn't crack the USA's top 50 problems right now. In fairness lack of capital punishment, even if it was a problem which is obviously debateable, wouldn't crack the UK's top 50 problems either.
@@Hyndergogen9 the larger problem is incarceration. capital punishment has slowly been on the way out for decades.
eh the American prison industry is more of a bizarre social experiment (or a really racist way of making shoes) than an actual justice system. fix that and the hardwork is done
"finding an innocent person, framing them, and giving them a very harsh punishment. But we try not to do that.". Have you ever heard of America? That is literally what happens every day.
I'm actually related to the last man hanged in Northern Ireland, and I'd always just accepted that he deserved the death penalty because what he did was so malicious and intentional, but I've also never thought of myself as pro-death penalty either and am glad it was abolished. Having watched this, like Abby, my thoughts on the matter have shifted and i'm not sure now how I feel about my relative having been executed, but I do feel more sure of myself in why the death penalty doesn't actually work.
Often I think about the relatives that get executed. I feel while one family might feel closure, another is greiving.
@@sammyhiggs4202 From everything I’ve seen, it’s practically a 50/50 split, but worse is how people change their minds with time and occasionally become worse off no matter what switches in opinion they’ve made.
Carl Sagan meets Rocky Horror. You lack only a killer ambient soundtrack. You've got a wonderful channel here.
“Home secretary Priti Patel” with a photo of emperor palpatine
We love to see it
TY! i was trying to work out who the photo was of!
A bit unfair to Palpatine, don't you think?
looked her up and she has that same evil peppiness that Umbridge had, far to cheerful to be my man palps
And all this is before you even get into for-profit prisons.
Oh, sweet baby Jesus, that is a very dark rabbit hole.
And this is why I often get so defeated when thinking about life. I cannot imagine a happy life in this capitalistic dumb we call civilisation. (I still try but it's just freaking hard trying to figure out wtf one is supposed to do)
And just like that the topic went from dark to into the abyss.
Wouldn't they be anti death penalty? Keeps prisoners around longer and they make more money.
@@FatherTime89 well, people still spend a lot of time on the death row. And a lot of new inmates coming for petty shit like weed or forgery.
I can't imagine they'd bother with such large supply.
The grin at the start of this piece is brilliant. I read it as "I am here, as myself, creating another masterpiece, and there is a banging soundtrack".
Congrats, Ms Thorn.
Im a 2nd year law student, with one of my modules being jurisprudence, your videos have helped me to understand my course and general philosophy so much better! thank you! please never stop making these videos!
When people make pro-death penalty arguments, I go further and insist that the execution be a stoning or beheading as a football halftime show and carried out by the community. Why? Because if you want deterrence, you need spectacle. And it would provide Catharsis, which is not possible if it is hidden away.
It usually gets people to rethink their position on the death penalty. Noone wants the things required for it to accomplish the purported goals.
That's presupposing the point of the death penalty is deterrence.
@@Michael-ml5vk yes, but from my personal experience at least that’s the position pro-death penalty holders have offered as a primary defence
Interesting point and I agree, except for the last sentence. There are many examples in which death row was made into a public spectacle in the media, which indicates that there are lots of people who are eager for the spectacle and catharsis surrounding the death penalty. As for the community aspect there seems to be no shortage of people who claim they would love to participate (who knows how genuine that is). From what I have seen those people genuinely believe certain people are 'beyond reform' and I wonder if that is also a narrative pushed by the media so they can create more spectacle out of heightened emotions.
@@smorkisborg440 this is so true as I’ve personally used this argument a handful of times only to be met half the time with a resounding, “yes bring back the public hangings.” At that point the yikes level goes through the roof and I change the conversation lol. There’s a huge disconnect for a lot of people when it comes to empathy and criminals.
As another commenter said, some people believe others are beyond reform or “born that way.”
IMHO you can nurture positive behaviours in humans with proper upbringing no matter their DNA. Parenthood, critical thinking skills and emotional intelligence should all be freely taught to have a decent society. Therapy should be free if not mostly subsidized.
Most (if not all) death row inmates have horrible childhoods and it’s not a coincidence some of us with bad childhoods grow up to do bad things. _Not as an excuse but a preventive understanding of how to help the next generation._ From what I’ve learned and experienced in my life, not everyone can bounce back from trauma as well as others. Some can’t cope healthily and they perpetuate the cycle, others find healthier ways to end the cycle. The goal for humanity should be to teach everyone to cope in healthy ways.
Catharsis has been debunked afaik.
"My Myers-Briggs astrology type" lol I'm dying
That line kills me every time
Myer briggs ain't astrology tho. XD
@@chriskeyes6933 They’re equivalent in terms of what they say uniquely about you. You answer questions that literally explain your demeanour to get a vaguer explanation of your demeanour for MB, and astrology is always really vague and more about reading direction for yourself when you don’t have a clue where to start (like tarot).
@@GuiSmith ok.
@@chriskeyes6933 no I isn't but it's not quite psychological help either...I think there's a lot of people who find help from it but imo it doesn't fall under practical science
I know I’m very late commenting on this, but I highly recommend “Just Mercy” by Bryan Stevenson. The book goes through the process of trying to stop the death penalty for an innocent man in the United States. It’s largely procedural, but still hits hard.
Speaking as someone whose mental health broke down, committed a crime, and now struggle after years to get a job (no references, a giant gap on CV, and a criminal record, and skills that are office based rather than labour based), that's a big oof about the mental health cuts.
I have some weird stances, but basically being progressive and good almost always end up cheaper anyway. Like even if you don't give a shit about homeless people or the mentally ill, it is cheaper for society to cover basic needs/ treatment. Rehabilitation and early intervention costs less that detainment etc etc.
It should be noted that this innocent, unaccountable trope for womanhood almost only applies to white women. WOC are not afforded the same excessive coddling and sympathy.
(100% credit to Angela Davis, I heavily recommend reading Women, Race, and Class)
+ !!!
This!!
i agree, felt like this intersectionality was a bit ignored
Truth.
I thought that's what she was indicating when she said: "very lucky people like me, can learn about prison by reading a book" while holding up her arm and pointing to her white skin.
"You have done something bad and you deserve to be punished." -Abigail Thorn, 2021
K the 5 raise
Yea. Abigail is such a tease.
I love when she smirks after. Like, we both know that line can be used in a lot of ways
The idea to rip it out of context didn't cross my mind in that moment - as I was busy following the train of thought and her argument. I just realized it, when she pointed it out. So... I consider that one being on her.
😳
The purpose of prisons should, hypothetically, be the rehabilitation of dangerous individuals into those who can exist peacefully in society. However, time and time again we are faced with the reality that this is seldom the outcome that prisons give us, and that prisons are far from being the best available way to achieve it.
ive only ever studied these cases as precedent, hearing the actual stories is so interesting!
Police aren't supposed to kill guilty people either.
Yet strangely people seem to have a hard time understanding this.
This! Their job isn’t punishment or executioner! They should be handing out tickets and taking people in. That’s it.
wish i could make people believe this.
How would one be “guilty” if they are murdered by police and never brought to Justice?
No, they are not supposed to. They do however, get called into high risk and high stress situations on a regular basis and are authorized to use lethal force as a last resort. There are aholes who abuse the position and occasionally whole precincts are corrupt, but a large number of police stay in that job because they want to help people and save lives, not end them.
A problem I have with people who are so opposed to women being executed, is that it often has little if anything to do with the opposition to the death penalty.
It seems to me more like Infantalising women... We can't be hanged because we are less responsible for our actions. Okej great I can't be hanged but only because they think I'm not an independent adult.
Again I'm anti death penalty,. But obviously it should be completely abolished, not arbitrarily applied to one gender and not another.
The Patriarchy strikes again!
shit thing is how many have you met that never take any responsibilty. its quite normal..
@@borgKick wtf
sorry for the dark joke but if i didn't know better i'd assume it was about protecting the tradition of women burning at the stake
Men are expendable and replacable, women this precious thing that needs to be protected.
It's basically the same thing with sending men to war or letting them leave a sinking ship last and even nowadays women get lower fines and lower sentences on jailtime and community work.
Despite that due to personal experience i am against abolishing prisons and know that a reformed system does work
I've been on a similar mental journey with prison abolition. Thank you for verbalizing it for me.
I must say, managing to do this along with the male version skull clip on the opposite side is just outstanding work.