The Gnome developers feel like they were developers who got rejected by Apple and are using the Gnome project to live out their fantasy and roleplay as Apple devs.
The GNOME development lifecycle, illustrated for newcomers: 1. Mark all current issues as stale or wontfix when no new work is getting done 2. Partner with/create new software feature that is going to "finally fix the Linux desktop" 3. Expand codebase around new feature, leaving an abundance of cruft and dead code in their wake 4. (YOU ARE HERE) When everything inevitably breaks, they abandon the new feature and blame some perceived open-source boogieman 5. Development falters, funding cuts out, maintainers bail or something else happens that causes progress to return to a standstill (return to Step 1)
Them aping Apple when not understanding why Apple does things the way it does, and completely ignoring what users expect of a Linux desktop, or going for tablet interface _for the desktop_ ... that list is just plain too long with KDE it was the semantic desktop, good idea in theory, but like OSI network model, not something that works in practice; but at least you were able to ignore it, can't really the GNOME changes
When I was a young bloke I remember someone saying "The problem with X11, was that it was designed by a committee" - it's good to see the replacement is going down the same path!
There are times when I do empathize with GNOME viewpoints... but man does this reminds me very clearly that a lot of the vitriol against GNOME doesn't come out of nowhere. The SSD and Global Menu issue was especially relevant for me because I like the flexibility and efficiency they provide.
@@BrodieRobertsonThe problem is people just see an amorphous blob known as "GNOME" and they have no clue where they should go to voice their grievances and suggestions, and when every GNOME representative (which includes developers) has to hold the stance that it's GNOME's way or the highway, people get frustrated and end up taking it out on the representative in question. To use an analogy GNOME is like the Linux equivalent of EU bureaucracy, and it feels to people like they are yelling at a brick wall they never elected nor can vote out that will never listen nor actually get anything people want done done. Not that GNOME is or should be a democracy for the users, but it needs to work out how to deal with this in a way that doesn't inflame everyone who doesn't want exactly GNOME's way.
@@BrodieRobertson agreed, the problem is that it does feel like impotent rage at times. Honestly, I think my moving on from hating Gnome is more due to tiredness than anything else.
The only reason all of this is a problem is because GNOME is the default DE for many distros, even though it's known for being an opinionated DE. There's nothing bad with taking your own choices and going your own way.
@@lucas7061is there a DE that isn't opinionated in some way.... No, but if there is it would be a plain TTY... And yes I love my TTY as DE 😉 (no seriously a TTY is way more usable as "SE" (server environment) than any "DE" can be. And X has 1 feature that Wayland kind of needs for it to be installed on servers... Wayland over SSH... It's just only possible with X at the moment. Where should I be without X over SSH if I need to use a graphical program to set something up on a server (I know that there is at least 1 program that does need that support because the config file is just such a mess and the CMD tool it ships is just so crappy)
"GNOME is a complete disaster." Certified Galatians 4:16 moment. Yeah, the idea of client-side decorations is *neat*, but without a server-side fallback, it's like walking off a cliff hoping to find a bridge.
@@MisakaMikotoDesu funnily enough CSDs were a Windows Thing. Every Client in Windows needed to draq their titlebar. Before Windows ibtroduced dwm and SSD. And somehow we copy that BS and think 'a Job well done my friends'
@@bigpod Bruh KDE's UI is FAR superior to GNOME's lol. It's copying Windows for a reason. Windows just generally has a good UI for getting shit done, even if it's inconsistent in the newest versions.
X11 may be crap, but it's at least crap that works consistently; Wayland would be nice, but I'm not a window manager/desktop compositor developer, I don't feel like arguing those problems
You can't fault a developer for removing something that is that unreliable in working correctly. Having things sit for 3 years without a decision is absurdly slow. Honestly my experience with a Linux desktop has been less reliable than Windows. That did not used to be the case but it sure seems to be more buggy now than it was a decade ago.
I wonder if all the non-Gnome people could just do stuff the way they all want and just leave Gnome in the dust. Either people won't use Gnome and they'll fold to market pressure or just die because they failed to adapt. They do seem to be a rather spoilsport when it comes to Wayland progress. At this point it just has to be out of stubbornness instead of actual real objections.
This would work in the paid segment. Open source is done by people for people and the answer you might get is "get involved if you want something". Don't argue with me, I've been suplying arguments for some missing features and some badly implemented features, I stopped doing it after pushing up the hill for a while.
Can't wait for Cosmic. I love the feel of GNOME but their developers are beyond ridiculous. A fork of GNOME that actually implements standards and doesn't break all extensions every 6 months would be nice too
im going to just say it, Gnome spends more time holding things back than anything else. Every time I hear about anything Gnome its always "the discussion is still going, its been open for (multiple years)"
i doubt that the wayland protocol devs are going to listen to random app developers because "you have to be like us and implement your fix in 3 projects"
IMHO if the gnome developers are going to veto all expansions to the Wayland protocol then they need to be ignored until they start working with the community and not against the community
Just to mention a couple of things (I was brought here cos we've had a couple of users who evidently read your clickbait title and didn't watch the video) TL;DW for people reading the title: No we did not drop Wayland, it's just set to prefer xwayland over wayland by default for the Appimage and Flatpack, you CAN force it if you really want to, as described in the video. Regarding the Nvidia problems: Yes they're still a thing, one of our testers has Wayland and the whole compositor just seems to just crap itself on Nvidia, in our emulator the covers layout and whatnot just turn in to a mangled mess, it looks pretty bad. I understand that in some cases there are different protocols we could implement to fix some of the issues, but this is part of the problem, we have to mess around doing special code just for Wayland because it dares to be different? We have universal code for Windows, Mac and X11, why should we have to mess that up and add special code paths just for Wayland? It's kind of ridiculous to have to do this. I do agree that more developers should be screaming at Wayland folks rather than complaining on their own repos, but then you see threads like the one Stenzek linked where people are doing that, and the answer is pretty much "we don't care, your old way that everybody else does is dumb, use our new way!" and other fart sniffing responses. Anyways, thanks for the video, even if we did have people who evidently didn't watch it.
Thanks for the comment, I agree that Wayland shouldn't be implementing a whole new way to do things. I'd like things like the multiwindow support to just work in a similar way to X11 but it seems like that's not the path we're going down sadly. You are absolutely right though that often times the developers are just ignored but there's not really much else that can be done at this point.
@@BrodieRobertson yeah it's a real pain :( I'm not a Linux user myself, but as much as an open platform is nice, it's also plagued with multiple parties doing everything differently, which makes supporting everything everybody is going to use extremely difficult, which is one of the few nice things about windows and MacOS, you know what you're getting. I do appreciate your objective view on the subject though, I can't say I've watched your channel before, but I came here expecting a bit of a "PCSX2 bad" video, but it was actually quite reasonable, so thanks for that.
We're very much in a migration period right now, so there's a lot of hiccups along the way, Wayland suffers from extreme design by comittee and nobody on the table can even agree what they're talking about but things are slowly but surely getting better. But it'll never be as consistent as those other platforms. I'm glad you thought that, I love PCSX2, it's an incredible project and everybody involved is clearly doing great work.
@@BrodieRobertson Yeah, though if they can at least get make things compatible, it will relieve a lot of headaches for sure for everybody! I appreciate the kind words :) Thanks!
@@BrodieRobertson Before even considering migration the Wayland developers should focus on making sure their code even runs at all. It's all well and good to tell people to migrate but when it crashes on start-up there's nothing to migrate to.
I personally really like CSD applications. That being said, Dynamic Window Decorations with XDG decoration would be great for applications that don't want to render their own decorations. I really don't like the double header bars on SSD environments on applications that use tabs or other headerbar elements like browsers. Edit: Accidentally put portals instead of decoration.
Imo if the compositor is well designed it should support both, and through a protocol. The idea of using a portal for this seems off: why would you bring another external thing between the compositor and the app ? Plus there is no need to ask permission for it so this makes even less sense to me
CSDs can be pretty, but they can also be an absolute mess. Personally I'm all for Locally Integrated Menus (as opposed to global menus; menus integrated in windows' decorations) - that'd potentially resolve the issue of double headers in a _lot_ of software, and I guess it wouldn't require any extra standardization at all(!) - since desktops are able to render global menus in an arbitrary panel, they might as well render it in the SSD (they also draw themselves) instead.
I'm honestly fine with CSD in the sense that I'm tired of being angry at it and just live with it, maybe appreciate some that are really well designed. But man do I prefer SSD (so it can be hidden when maximized) + Global Menu a la Unity a lot more. Especially back when I was using a small 768p screen.
GNOME needs to be dropped from a great deal of distros as IMHO GNOME has always caused way more harm to Linux desktop then ANY OTHER project considering their decisions affects everything and they tend to want to go their own way everyone else be damned.. .. maybe just maybe its time to punish GNOME? maybe get them moving towards a road of standards instead of being the loner? Honestly don't understand how some projects like Ubuntu gets so much heat over the last 15 years but GNOME gets a free pass? To be frank many of GNOMES decisions are way more bizarre then Ubuntus has ever been considering GNOME affects so much, in fact many of the decisions Ubuntu has gotten heat over were reactionary to GNOMES decisions LMAO which proves my point that GNOME is and has been the real culprit
I use PCSX2 to play Burnout 3: Takedown mostly, but I'll occasionally branch out to other games like Ace Combat, the occasional JRPG, and Goldeneye: Rogue Agent. Getting real fucking sick of "We're so close to implementing a cool new thing, but fucking GNOME and Wayland developers are being stubborn assholes." as an end user, I like what Wayland does for multi-monitor support and security, but if developers need an X11 feature, Wayland needs to implement it. I'd go try to contribute X11/Wayland patches that fix this myself I had the know how instead of just complaining here, but I don't have that skillset. I wish developers would just drop GNOME and make it explicitly clear that they should redirect any complaints about it to the GNOME developers for not implementing [link to specific pull request feature they need]. If GNOME wants to do their own thing, let them, but they won't get application support without changes. Everyone else is on the same page, except for GNOME, who tears the pages out of the book out of spite for being unable or unwilling to read.
that dev has the most valid wayland take ever. Basically - xorg is bad, but wayland devs are just sitting around scratching their balls. And I couldnt agree more. I watched the video on gnome being upset with the accent colour thing, and I just burst out laughing. It is the job of 70 year old men on boards of google and microsoft to cry about pointless things like that, us developers should be better than that.
And I really appreciate KDE for brute forcing their way through the IME problem, by implementing all 4 versions of text-input protocol. Man is this space fragmented.
Honestly, setting up IMEs on Linux always was a pain in the ass for me, on multiple distros. I feel so bad for CJK users, because they can't even properly write in their native language without at least some work...
@@hikkamorii at least we can stumble our way to a workable Wayland session with KDE, unlike with the other major DE that shall not be named. I'm on openSUSE Leap though, where IME works out of the box if selected at install with an X11 session, otherwise it still takes some work.
AFAIK KDE’s SSD lets us register preset widget types for inclusion in your decoration/title bar. Such as a hamburger menu button, media controls, etc. I liked this compromise and never liked CSD; which could only be sane in a single toolkit ecosystem.
Yup. KDE's powerful SSD is why I am very pro-SSD. Not just placing buttons according to your preference, but you can also just dismiss it... and have window controls and menu in the panel a la Unity. As usual, simple by default, powerful when needed.
As for custom widgets in the title bar, that can be delegated to the client. e.g. give the client a window/canvas for just the widget along with a preferred colour palette and let the client handle the drawing and events. Menu bars and the like could be handled by passing said window to the GUI toolkit that the application is using. (IMO though, menu bars in the title bar are evil.)
That's ironic compared to all of these other applications that are switching. It makes sense though with this insane amount of inconsistencies and indecisiveness surrounding Wayland.
The global menu is really nice when you have limited screen estate like on a laptop. If global menus would work consistently I would configure KDE to switch to scrolling tiling (Karousel KWin script) + global menu when only the built-in laptop screen is in use and switch to stacking with no global menu when external displays are connected.
That's why you use one panel for everything, instead of using docks separately, so you don't waste space. Global menus are against every single UX rule, by design.
@@DanielClear2 @PeakKissShot It's not just about saving space. It's about benefiting from edges as infinite sized cursor targets. I get that you dislike global menus but I am telling you that people who like them, especially on macOS, like them for a reason. Personally I find them great on small screens and terrible on large screens. If I lived in Qt-only land, than I would have used a global menu (placed inside one panel used for everything) when using the built-in screen and switch to locally integrated menus (menus in the server side decoration) when connected to external displays. Sadly, non-Qt apps don't always play nice with KDE global menus. KDE Plasma let's me do all of that.
Sorry but no, I want a world where we move away from menus like that. Symbols are so much better than just a list of text for most things. You can save space way better by just having a minimal UI that shows the users just what they want, and not bombard them with hundreds of options.
DAWs are common applications that _cant_ work on wayland because of window embedding. Any application that uses CLAP. That means software such as bitwig studio will never really work on pure wayland. And the wayland devs refuse to add the protocols to make it work.
GNOME being the default for alot of big distros is such a stupid idea considering their stubbornness and refusal to implement certain standards. They are actively harming Wayland progress imo. Maybe even better if GNOME was dropped from more distros 🤔 EDIT: In hindsight, adding that last note about GNOME being dropped 20 minutes after I made the original comment might have not been the smartest move, given my frustration with GNOME refusing to adapt a standard (again). Looking back at this, I understand why people would want to use GNOME, however, at the same time, I remain convinced that their CSD and their VR shenanigans with Valve do nothing but frustrate developers and users of FOSS. Refusing to adapt to standards for the sake of their (arguably) unpopular vision is a great way to show people how the users and developers do not matter to them, and ultimately, GNOME should not be shipped as default on major distros. GNOME has decided to be a niche product, and the default DE should be something that appeals more to the average user.
It used to be that KDE was buggy and GNOME was the stable thing. In my opinion the tables have turned - GNOME is now the desktop that is annoying and stubborn to use, they make decisions which harm the user experience, and don’t support a lot of stuff which results in unexpected behaviour.
Debian has selection of desktops during installation. Arch allows you to install whatever you want. Baking in DEs is also one of reasons for distro forkbomb in Linux world. Some devs decide "this DE sucks, this theme sucks" - they strap it, bake it in and ship it. "Hey, we have a new distro!" Not much distros really change how system works internally. So whole distro tree can be converged tenfold and stop people from working on downstream.
@@szymex22 KDE Wayland is now far superior to GNOME Wayland in most areas. The only concession I can give to GNOME Wayland is that it handles touchpad gestures better, but KDE pretty much beats GNOME in other areas anyway. 1- Actual fractional scaling for XWayland compared to the blurry crap with GNOME 2- More customization to get the workflow I want OOTB 3- More familiar interface for Windows users 4- KDE auto-setting fractional scaling depending on your display on first-time setup KDE is what the Linux desktop should be, not GNOME.
freerdp also deprecated Wayland in favor of SDL on 3.0, though you can still use build options to build it with unmaintained code, since it wasn't removed from the repo yet.
GNOME developers are basically building a desktop environment for GNOME applications - if you're application isn't using GTK - they're not interested in running it. I think it's about time all other software developers just stop making and maintaining hacks for supporting GNOME's missing standards and whatnot - users can just deal with not using a standard supporting DE, or move to something better. RedHat can maintain patches for every non-GTK app they want to ship - after they got rid of the freeloaders, they probably have tons of money to do that...
This is almost certainly intentional too. It's like a lite version of vendor lock-in. GNOME dominates the Linux desktop scene and has horrid support for anything but GTK, so you run a Qt (or any other toolkit) app and it either looks like shit or barely works. So what do you do next? Find a similar app but in GTK. If you don't use GTK as a user, you have a bad experience on Gnome. Meanwhile, KDE configures GTK themes out of the box to try to make them feel as native as possible.
@@mgord9518true, but that still isn't a good thing on Gnome's part to limit the possibility. For example ProtonUpQT is one of the few QT programs that work properly under gtk but every single GTK program works at least semi properly (since they don't completely work correctly all the time) on an QT environment...
I use a global menu with windowck so I may combine as many elements with the status tray upon window maximize. CSD ensures this doesnt work at all by duplicating the window title bar for the express purpose of displaying useless images in said title bar. I don't really understand the hiding of the application menus in a single hamburger or kebab menu, then backtracking and saying, "well we'll put some items back, but in the title bar, and images this time to break as many workflows as possible!"
I love Gnome, I love the way it looks and feels to use (at least initially), I love the action button up in the top-left corner that (as of Gnome 45 or so) shows me which of my virtual desktops I'm on. But I'm dropping Gnome, because _everything else_ about Gnome is just horrendous. You want to change anything meaningful, say your mouse accel curve? Impossible. Utterly impossible. Alt tabbing has become less than stable on Gnome: in or out of anything that uses Wine, some games want to be on a different virtual desktop, while some games want to be on the _same_ desktop (I'm using games as an example because that's the only thing I use Wine for). It's just heinous, and I just can't deal anymore. Someone needs to make a Gnome flavor and make it good. Rewrite it, fork it, whatever, I don't care. Shit don't work, and I'm frustrated about it.
The full COSMIC DE from System76 seems to be shaping up to be just that. The problem is the lock-in on the side of the major distro though - it'd still be more likely for Ubuntu to move to KDE than a new GNOME replacement, but that's not happening anytime soon (if ever) unless GNOME does something really bad. Still, Valve's support of KDE has helped a lot and System76 making COSMIC and supporting Smithay has also helped with increasing more members on the board so that GNOME's NACK votes become less relevant.
I hadn't yet tried Gnome in Wayland, but learning they don't support server side decorations in Wayland makes the idea of ever using Gnome again a non-starter. Many applications, even if they're ported to Wayland, are not going to want to do client side decorations. That's not work applications developers want to do on their side most of the time, and sometimes the toolkit will handle that for the app developer, but not always, and IMO libdecor is a ugly workaround for the Gnome project's ass-backwardness that I don't blame any app developers for preferring to avoid. In fact, I'd prefer most apps don't use client side decorations, with the main exception of applications with tabbed interfaces like web browsers. As a user: - I prefer my window decorations usually have matching theming to the extent it is feasible - Most applications have no good reason to do anything special with their decorations - We live in a world where many different toolkits are used (as much as the Gnome project wants to push the idea of a GTK-only world) As a developer: - It's not uncommon that I develop with no toolkit - Window decorations are outside the scope of what my applications want to do anything with - I strongly prefer to avoid extraneous dependencies (i.e. libdecor) that are not required by my application's core functionality - CSD meshes somewhat awkwardly with alternate windowing schemes like tiling window manager. It's weird as hell that the Wayland ecosystem seems to make CSD the default, yet doesn't let windows position themselves. Conceptually it feels to me like CSD should go hand-in-hand with an application being able to position itself. The state of things is completely warped and ass-backwards, and I'm convinced it's due to everyone else involved with Wayland bending over backwards to appease Gnome.
Yep, currently developing an application with glfw, and libdecor crashes for some reason, so I've disabled it and rely on SSD. Gnome's just not going to have decorations for now, and I don't care (small app, and I don't use gnome).
@@vocassen This is the attitude everyone should have taken rather than having toolkits rendering hideous default headerbars. It's GNOME's problem to fix, and if they want their users to have a usable experience, then they should fix it rather than relying on the rest of the world to clean up after them.
Problem for me is Synergy literally can't work on Wayland as it needs a Wayland module adding to handle input device capture/spoofing. I also need a virtual tigervnc desktop, its going to be annoying to no longer be able to use KDE for this (am I'm on Fedora) as I hate every other DE I've tried.
If we ever want to achieve software salvation we need some way to iterate on all these APIs. Perfecting the design takes forever (and can still fail) while being stuck with a terrible interface for the next decade sucks equally bad
5:43 Funny how we are basically reimplementing everything X11 under the XDG label now. Why shoot yourself in the foot, when X11 already works for most use cases?
aside from The brodie unfunny regurgitation of "you maintain x11 now". its funny how wayland started with "reinventing the way desktops are" to slowly realizing it just needs to be a x11 replacement. If wayland started in the beginning as just a x11 replacement for the modern desktop world maybe the move to wayland would be a lot more smoother
@@BrodieRobertson You keep saying that but the simple fact is that X just works. I've analyzed and contributed fixes for X-related bugs (client side) but I've yet to come across one in the X server itself. Should I encounter one I'll contribute a fix but I haven't encountered one yet and I've been using X literally for decades.
I'm a pcxs2 user, been playing through the xenosaga series on my Wayland desktop. I don't want us to keep going back to x11, it just makes no sense to be so reliant on a massive unmaintained project. That said I agree the Wayland and GTK/gnome devs need to STFU and start to listen to software developers
You don't have to go back to the X11 session, just use Xwayland. I already do that for RPCS3 because it's also broken on wayland (at least for Nvidia). Actually that's what the PCSX2 flatpak does by default, the Wayland permission is disabled by default.
PCSX2's native wayland support can still be enabled, it's just not on by default and not in the UI, so people stop complaining about problems that are not their fault.
I'm staying with X cause of libinput-gestures with touche, Wayland doesn't really allow configuration. Using those tools with a trackpad, such as a magic trackpad 2 you have a wide array of shortcuts at your fingertips. I'll just wait a couple of years until it is matured a bit better.
@@comfysage There would not be any issues if you are not looking for them. I use libinput-gestures for a 3/4 finger tab for shortcuts. Touche for 4 fingers swipe to change desktop. 3 finger shortcuts are wide open to any modification. 2 fingers are usually in use. It even allows for in-window gestures. Libinput even supports upright, rightup and so forth. Will Hyprland do the same on Wayland? To be honest, its one of the few things holding me back from switching. I mean, I already configured KDE to be a tiling window manager.
I srsly just wish that desktops and apps will start independently looking over the suggested protocols and basically say fuck all to waiting for stuff to be officially implemented and start including things that work, basically force wayland to support the protocols just by virtue of that's what used. I think they kinda proved usability isn't their top priority and that pisses me off. It's like, is this a production oriented graphic stack or a pet project? Bc if it's the former, stop acting like it's the latter, start putting the users first.
I think most people just don't know how it works. There is Wayland core and Wayland extensions, the latter don't need to be agreed upon by each desktop.
If you just go out and implement everything then wayland won't be any better than X11. A big reason why wayland is so good is because it restricts app freedom and gives it back to the user. Yes, they should implement more protocols but they need to be done right.
@@taukakao I agree that they shouldn't implement every new thing, but if you have something like multi windows issue, and there's a solution ready to go for years and it's on hold just bc the wayland ppl don't want implement something that act like x11, you know what? Yeah. I kinda wish kde will start using it. (Bc when kde implement something a lot of qt apps implement it and it snowball)
@@taukakao That's one heck of an Orwellian statement. _cf._ X11 where the applications are given wide freedom to choose the approach that works best for them *and* the end user has final, overriding say over what the application actually does or is permitted to do.
@@alexhajnal107 This is so far from reality. For example, applications using the approach they want means they can choose an approach the user absolutely hates and if the user wants to change that, they will probably break the app because it's completely undefined behavior. And no, I would argue this is the exact opposite of Orwellian. In X11, the app gets the say on what happens on your PC, not you, that's what I call Orwellian.
Linux isn't the disaster, the desktop environments are like 99% of the cause of the issues people have with Linux... The kernel isn't way but waaaaaaaaaaaaay more stable than the mess of the NT kernel that Windows ships.... I know that the BSD kernels are also rock solid but for a common desktop/server kernel that is so widely used with so many things strapped into it it is way to stable....
I use PCSX2 to play steambot chronicles. One of my fav games. It's exclusive for PS2 and a has always been real bitch to emulate for the longest time because it came out pretty late in the console's life and it apparently uses some PS2 GPU magic, but recently I got a laptop with a beefy enough CPU to run the ntsc 60 fps version full speed with 16:9 wide mode. I only use X, so I didn't have any problems wayland problems with the program xd
I like Wayland quite a bit. it's buttery smooth on something like Sway or Hyprland. Gnome and KDE are not my cup of tea. I suppose once XFCE goes full Wayland then the future will be here!
I am a KDE plasma user and I use the Wayland session. What no one seems to mention is the benefits of switching SDDM to use a Wayland session rather than X11 (the arch wiki page on SDDM tells you everything you need to know). Since doing this I have noticed a very nice jump in graphics performance and one or two glitches just disappeared instantly. I have not done direct comparisons, but I suspect it may be at the root of many of those problems that only effect very specific set-ups and environments. As far as I can tell no distro ships with this setting (yet) but it is well worth a try !
The Wayland development team has been at this for 15 years and are basically in an early beta stage, which is where they should have been 10-12 years ago. Today, we are talking about serious issues MAYBE being fixed in 2-3 years? So when do we decide that maybe this was not the way to go?
@BrodieRobertson I'm on my Xorg desktop and I'm not complaining. It's great. What need does Wayland address that I have? I'm not aware of a single thing.
@@peterixxx IIRC Wayland was initially created to solve issues that the initial version of X11's DRI had. Said issues were resolved with DRI2 (released in March 2008) and included with the next release of Xorg (February 2009) and X11 (October 2009). Wayland first released at the end of September 2008. So as far as I can tell Wayland solved a problem that had already been solved.
In my application I use window embedding. This is impossible in wayland and wayland devs refuse to implement it (they are against the idea). So my application will have to be forever X11 only. I also have another application that is impossible for some wayland compositors, and that is running replay buffer (screen recording) on system startup without a popup asking what you want to record every single time. So nvidia shadowplay/switch/etc like auto replay cant be done nicely on wayland. It can be done if you bypass wayland, but that requires root access and in flatpak that requires tons of hacks.
@@cameronbosch1213 The embedded window needs to integrate with the main application and inputs need to be received by the other application to control the embedded application. This is also done in many professional applications (such as daws). This even increases security because of process separation and possibility of sandboxing. Which should be of interest to wayland devs. Instead a wayland dev unironically recommends you to instead create your own entire wayland compositor, embed that into your application and proxy the embedded application to your embedded wayland compositor. That is crazy.
Lauch your embedded window with your app as wayland compositor, compose it, done. Wayland devs made sure that nesting works properly and without performance impact.
Has Wayland really not implemented embedding yet? That's really basic functionality that's useful in a myriad of situations. (You're referring to *XReparentWindow,* etc. correct?)
Large projects need an autocracy. Having a "diplomatic" process just results in an endless gaggle of arguing and compromise that kills potential. Can you imagine the state of the Linux kernel if they had this design by committee approach to development? We would all be using BSD!
The Linux kernel is a great example of large scale management, whilst Linus or Greg depending on the day are the last points before things get fully merged. Each subsystem has it's own maintainership so it's kind of like a bunch of sub projects that collaborate on one larger project.
Hi Brodie ! THANK YOU for this video ! finally a callout for App developers to talk with the Wayland and portal devs, i'm using PCSX2 to play my childhood games (Midnight Club 2 and 3) without this app i just can't.. Aether on Android got abandoned because toxic comunity i'm so sad for this and the dev.. (there is no alternatives the others on android are just scams) Another thing, just ignore Gnome devs (not all, just the hostile ones, especially the one holding the Linux desktop back without good reasons) to create Wayland, Portals, ect... Gnome's app ecosystem still the best and i'm a plasma user so there's that..
The problems with being an advocate in the foss world are ppl who say: You are just one person and can't change anything, What do you think you are paying for when you are not paying we are all volunteers, You can just fix that in your own fork. Edit: Why are you asking about something we won't fix you should have known our position on this issue without having to ask.
I didn't know that global menu thing was a thing, I've been using a widget made by someone else that did the same thing but more buggy in Wayland, the actual KDE one is not buggy, however you can't customise it in any way. The reason I use it is because it saves on screen space as it hides the menu from each window of programs that have a menu like that. What I love about Linux/KDE, you can customise it exactly how you want it.
Yes I use pcsx2. I've never had issues on wayland. I'm using KDE and running it through the flatpak. I knew the GNOME implementation was buggy but I didn't expect it to have that many issues lol. Btw, the games I've been playing are the SMT: Digital Devil Saga duology.
I tried using Gnome. But when i had to install 20 extensions just to do what I want to do on KDE out of the box i stopped bothering. It does look nice tho
Switched to Wayland on Gnome since I bought an Intel Arc card. I disabled flipping on Nvidia for monitor setup with different refresh rates, but it wasn't an option for Intel, so I had to migrate for 144hz desktop experience.
It makes perfect sense to not support platforms that aren't working well, it's a headache. Whatever issues they percieve must be understood as legitimate because best case for wayland they've communicated too poorly or don't support this usecase. For a developer to support a platform that has issues means some concession like the wayland userbase or reasons that aren't related to your application like political/future optimism/rejection of the old.
As I understand it, any core Wayland developer can veto any idea/code with no recourse. That includes removing powers from existing members (including themselves). Kind of like the UN Security Council. I'd refer to a source to back this up but Wayland appears to be *very* opaque about their governance. If someone has some better info on this please reply.
The problem is that the Gnome Project will probably just suffer through not having Apps, just to not admit that they are wrong. I could see Wayland actually getting abandoned by users if Gnome keeps vetoing every good and useful protocol.
To be fair the only "apps" I use on my work PC are already a browser, various versions of a browser pretending to be an application, and the system settings.
Eh. A lot of Linux apps still use GTK, and more are made with Libadwaita. I've heard that the dev experience is great if you fit into their design guidelines, but there are a lot of users who don't agree with those guidelines and even among devs once you start to get to something really complicated like Bottles, it's just more hassle than its worth. Most apps aren't Bottles, though, that's why you get a lot more new apps using Libadwaita.
2:10 I'm pretty sure MacOS does actually have SSDs and titlebars - they tend to use whichever is most appropriate for the program in question as their design standard - the example image you showed literally has a program with a titlebar in it (Finder). The only difference is they've made it so that the titlebar blends nicely where used, or just doesn't take up too much space. This is opposite of GNOME where you just end up with a hideous enormous default headerbar. Frankly, other toolkits should simply refuse to render "default headerbars" if their program doesn't come with one. This is GNOME's problem to deal with, not the rest of the world. It's not everyone else's applications that are broken, it's GNOME. If enough people complain that they can't drag windows on GNOME, the GNOME developers will be forced to finally come to a (correct) decision.
They do, maybe I didn't word it correctly but what I was getting at was when MacOS does CSD it's generally done quite well in a way that fits in with the environment
Yup I use pcsx2 because better graphics of modern games makes it hard for my screwy retinas to make out what I’m doing. I also picked mint for the desktop I run it on and I’m feeling relief like nothing else. Bring on longer X support and a wake-up call for waylaid.
How do I even go about submitting a bug report? I'm in KDE plasma 5.27.9 so the bug might be fixed in a later version. Do I need to get the lastest version and check if the bug is still there?
In the KDE bugtracker you can select which Version this affects. (or write which Version it's on. (or Look for a similar Bug report and See the Status on that.
I don't know how it's on KDE, but in general you should first try to find if the issue has already been reported (maybe even fixed), give additional information on an existing report, or create a new one if there is none. As for the version, if it's difficult for you to test something on the latest version, the best thing you can do to help a developer is give step-by-step instructions on how they can reproduce the issue on your version, and the developer will be able to test it on whatever version by following those steps.
I don't actively dislike GNOME, but I choose not to use it for many of the reasons above. GNOME is more of an infected wound now than anything, and I know there's people that love it, but I cannot stand how they do things.
Is it just me, or has software on Linux been getting worse since the aggressive push to Wayland? Used to be X11 worked fine. Now both X11 and Wayland are becoming equally as buggy. This is on KDE. I’m debating dropping it for xfce to see if it’s any better and sticking with X
A lot of it's down to the distros. Code is being pushed out to production that really shouldn't have been. At least for Ubuntu it's been getting progressively worse over the past 10 years or so. (I've got 16 pages of notes on just the changes needed to get my "new" Ubuntu system functioning on par with my old install. A lot of things were broken out of the box, Wayland being one of them. X11, thankfully, just worked.)
@@alexhajnal107 hmm good to know. I’m using MX Linux KDE. I’d assume any quirks would also be present on vanilla Debian 12. It only seems to happen with a handful of applications, not everything. Mostly Steam has become less stable even less so than its debut on Linux
Also can you like put something actually funny on your white board instead of sex jokes?
About as funny as your comments
Ooh he took that one personally
look at @@BrodieRobertson JR going to cry ?
Please hand the phone back to mummy, you're a bit young to be here
@@BrodieRobertson ouch my feelings they hurt bruh really going out of his way just to reply to the comments that talk mess HA LOSER
The Gnome developers feel like they were developers who got rejected by Apple and are using the Gnome project to live out their fantasy and roleplay as Apple devs.
If I recall, some of the guys calling the shots ARE ex-Apple employees.
@@CptJistuce That would explain a lot.
The GNOME development lifecycle, illustrated for newcomers:
1. Mark all current issues as stale or wontfix when no new work is getting done
2. Partner with/create new software feature that is going to "finally fix the Linux desktop"
3. Expand codebase around new feature, leaving an abundance of cruft and dead code in their wake
4. (YOU ARE HERE) When everything inevitably breaks, they abandon the new feature and blame some perceived open-source boogieman
5. Development falters, funding cuts out, maintainers bail or something else happens that causes progress to return to a standstill (return to Step 1)
Them aping Apple when not understanding why Apple does things the way it does, and completely ignoring what users expect of a Linux desktop, or going for tablet interface _for the desktop_ ... that list is just plain too long
with KDE it was the semantic desktop, good idea in theory, but like OSI network model, not something that works in practice; but at least you were able to ignore it, can't really the GNOME changes
The soy dev ecosystem
indeed@@LabiaLicker
not sure exactly what you are on about, this list was more of a satirical one and yes KDE is just better@@666Tomato666
Seeing the infamous aklapper amongst gnome devs, this is the quality of work I would expect.
When I was a young bloke I remember someone saying "The problem with X11, was that it was designed by a committee" - it's good to see the replacement is going down the same path!
X11 devs make X11-2.0. Story @ now.
Imagine this pitch in the future:
"Wayland is too big, old, insecure and bloated... let's make a new standard!"
And the cycle continues 😂
There are times when I do empathize with GNOME viewpoints... but man does this reminds me very clearly that a lot of the vitriol against GNOME doesn't come out of nowhere. The SSD and Global Menu issue was especially relevant for me because I like the flexibility and efficiency they provide.
I think the issue is where people direct the frustration, there's no point harassing developers but I think it's ok to be annoyed at the end result
@@BrodieRobertsonThe problem is people just see an amorphous blob known as "GNOME" and they have no clue where they should go to voice their grievances and suggestions, and when every GNOME representative (which includes developers) has to hold the stance that it's GNOME's way or the highway, people get frustrated and end up taking it out on the representative in question. To use an analogy GNOME is like the Linux equivalent of EU bureaucracy, and it feels to people like they are yelling at a brick wall they never elected nor can vote out that will never listen nor actually get anything people want done done. Not that GNOME is or should be a democracy for the users, but it needs to work out how to deal with this in a way that doesn't inflame everyone who doesn't want exactly GNOME's way.
@@BrodieRobertson agreed, the problem is that it does feel like impotent rage at times. Honestly, I think my moving on from hating Gnome is more due to tiredness than anything else.
The only reason all of this is a problem is because GNOME is the default DE for many distros, even though it's known for being an opinionated DE. There's nothing bad with taking your own choices and going your own way.
@@lucas7061is there a DE that isn't opinionated in some way....
No, but if there is it would be a plain TTY... And yes I love my TTY as DE 😉 (no seriously a TTY is way more usable as "SE" (server environment) than any "DE" can be.
And X has 1 feature that Wayland kind of needs for it to be installed on servers... Wayland over SSH... It's just only possible with X at the moment.
Where should I be without X over SSH if I need to use a graphical program to set something up on a server (I know that there is at least 1 program that does need that support because the config file is just such a mess and the CMD tool it ships is just so crappy)
"GNOME is a complete disaster." Certified Galatians 4:16 moment.
Yeah, the idea of client-side decorations is *neat*, but without a server-side fallback, it's like walking off a cliff hoping to find a bridge.
Meaning?
@@alexhajnal107 Galatians 4:16 - "Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"
Based AF
It's like Gnome devs see Apple do something, copy it superficially, and then never admit that the way they implement that idea is trash.
@@MisakaMikotoDesu funnily enough CSDs were a Windows Thing. Every Client in Windows needed to draq their titlebar. Before Windows ibtroduced dwm and SSD. And somehow we copy that BS and think 'a Job well done my friends'
gnome is on its way out of being considered a standard. KDE will replace it and Valve already knew that when they chose it for SteamOS
If kde is ever considered standard that will be downfall of linux desktop
Bit of an overreaction.
@@lightechoes no not really, i dont have all that high opinon of kde
@@bigpodi love kde with all my heart so for me it will be the upfly of the linux desktop
@@bigpod Bruh KDE's UI is FAR superior to GNOME's lol. It's copying Windows for a reason. Windows just generally has a good UI for getting shit done, even if it's inconsistent in the newest versions.
X11 may be crap, but it's at least crap that works consistently; Wayland would be nice, but I'm not a window manager/desktop compositor developer, I don't feel like arguing those problems
You can't fault a developer for removing something that is that unreliable in working correctly. Having things sit for 3 years without a decision is absurdly slow. Honestly my experience with a Linux desktop has been less reliable than Windows. That did not used to be the case but it sure seems to be more buggy now than it was a decade ago.
I wonder if all the non-Gnome people could just do stuff the way they all want and just leave Gnome in the dust. Either people won't use Gnome and they'll fold to market pressure or just die because they failed to adapt. They do seem to be a rather spoilsport when it comes to Wayland progress. At this point it just has to be out of stubbornness instead of actual real objections.
The jssue is that any Thing GTK would suffer because you know Gnome is the Main dev of that BS toolkit
@@keit99 Imagine if some competent team forked GTK, it would be wonderful.
Gnome devs would sooner sabotage Wayland than allow anyone else to drive Wayland development. Their politics don't allow them to give others control.
This would work in the paid segment. Open source is done by people for people and the answer you might get is "get involved if you want something". Don't argue with me, I've been suplying arguments for some missing features and some badly implemented features, I stopped doing it after pushing up the hill for a while.
agree
Can't wait for Cosmic. I love the feel of GNOME but their developers are beyond ridiculous.
A fork of GNOME that actually implements standards and doesn't break all extensions every 6 months would be nice too
I just think they need a designer or just looks so bad, especially contrasted against gnome.
BudgieX has a forked mutter compositor now. So, it might be the desktop to do it.
@@lucyinchatWhat’s BudgieX? For some reason, I’m not really getting any useful results from Google.
im going to just say it, Gnome spends more time holding things back than anything else. Every time I hear about anything Gnome its always "the discussion is still going, its been open for (multiple years)"
Wayland is a worked exercise in design-by-committee, with a very big committee.
The OSI protocol suite comes to mind.
Wayland is doing an excellent job of emulating the EU legislative process with the help of GNOME.
i doubt that the wayland protocol devs are going to listen to random app developers because "you have to be like us and implement your fix in 3 projects"
we just got GNOME'd
again
IMHO if the gnome developers are going to veto all expansions to the Wayland protocol then they need to be ignored until they start working with the community and not against the community
There are multiple protocols everything in core needs to be agreed on, but everything in the extension protocol can't be vetoed
Just to mention a couple of things (I was brought here cos we've had a couple of users who evidently read your clickbait title and didn't watch the video)
TL;DW for people reading the title: No we did not drop Wayland, it's just set to prefer xwayland over wayland by default for the Appimage and Flatpack, you CAN force it if you really want to, as described in the video.
Regarding the Nvidia problems: Yes they're still a thing, one of our testers has Wayland and the whole compositor just seems to just crap itself on Nvidia, in our emulator the covers layout and whatnot just turn in to a mangled mess, it looks pretty bad.
I understand that in some cases there are different protocols we could implement to fix some of the issues, but this is part of the problem, we have to mess around doing special code just for Wayland because it dares to be different? We have universal code for Windows, Mac and X11, why should we have to mess that up and add special code paths just for Wayland? It's kind of ridiculous to have to do this.
I do agree that more developers should be screaming at Wayland folks rather than complaining on their own repos, but then you see threads like the one Stenzek linked where people are doing that, and the answer is pretty much "we don't care, your old way that everybody else does is dumb, use our new way!" and other fart sniffing responses.
Anyways, thanks for the video, even if we did have people who evidently didn't watch it.
Thanks for the comment, I agree that Wayland shouldn't be implementing a whole new way to do things. I'd like things like the multiwindow support to just work in a similar way to X11 but it seems like that's not the path we're going down sadly.
You are absolutely right though that often times the developers are just ignored but there's not really much else that can be done at this point.
@@BrodieRobertson yeah it's a real pain :( I'm not a Linux user myself, but as much as an open platform is nice, it's also plagued with multiple parties doing everything differently, which makes supporting everything everybody is going to use extremely difficult, which is one of the few nice things about windows and MacOS, you know what you're getting.
I do appreciate your objective view on the subject though, I can't say I've watched your channel before, but I came here expecting a bit of a "PCSX2 bad" video, but it was actually quite reasonable, so thanks for that.
We're very much in a migration period right now, so there's a lot of hiccups along the way, Wayland suffers from extreme design by comittee and nobody on the table can even agree what they're talking about but things are slowly but surely getting better. But it'll never be as consistent as those other platforms.
I'm glad you thought that, I love PCSX2, it's an incredible project and everybody involved is clearly doing great work.
@@BrodieRobertson Yeah, though if they can at least get make things compatible, it will relieve a lot of headaches for sure for everybody!
I appreciate the kind words :) Thanks!
@@BrodieRobertson Before even considering migration the Wayland developers should focus on making sure their code even runs at all. It's all well and good to tell people to migrate but when it crashes on start-up there's nothing to migrate to.
I personally really like CSD applications. That being said, Dynamic Window Decorations with XDG decoration would be great for applications that don't want to render their own decorations. I really don't like the double header bars on SSD environments on applications that use tabs or other headerbar elements like browsers.
Edit: Accidentally put portals instead of decoration.
Imo if the compositor is well designed it should support both, and through a protocol.
The idea of using a portal for this seems off: why would you bring another external thing between the compositor and the app ? Plus there is no need to ask permission for it so this makes even less sense to me
@@syudagye2837 Sorry, I meant XDG decoration.
CSDs can be pretty, but they can also be an absolute mess.
Personally I'm all for Locally Integrated Menus (as opposed to global menus; menus integrated in windows' decorations) - that'd potentially resolve the issue of double headers in a _lot_ of software, and I guess it wouldn't require any extra standardization at all(!) - since desktops are able to render global menus in an arbitrary panel, they might as well render it in the SSD (they also draw themselves) instead.
I really like CSD and GNOME design language in general, the constant API/ABI breakage and refusal to use standards is ridiculous though
I'm honestly fine with CSD in the sense that I'm tired of being angry at it and just live with it, maybe appreciate some that are really well designed. But man do I prefer SSD (so it can be hidden when maximized) + Global Menu a la Unity a lot more. Especially back when I was using a small 768p screen.
I use Wayland for accessibility, because X11 will stutter many games to an unplayable degree if you need multiple input devices to play.
Actually, I think we should rename the entire Linux to Bikeshed OS. It's catchy and accurate as hell.
GNOME needs to be dropped from a great deal of distros as IMHO GNOME has always caused way more harm to Linux desktop then ANY OTHER project considering their decisions affects everything and they tend to want to go their own way everyone else be damned.. .. maybe just maybe its time to punish GNOME? maybe get them moving towards a road of standards instead of being the loner? Honestly don't understand how some projects like Ubuntu gets so much heat over the last 15 years but GNOME gets a free pass? To be frank many of GNOMES decisions are way more bizarre then Ubuntus has ever been considering GNOME affects so much, in fact many of the decisions Ubuntu has gotten heat over were reactionary to GNOMES decisions LMAO which proves my point that GNOME is and has been the real culprit
I use PCSX2 to play Burnout 3: Takedown mostly, but I'll occasionally branch out to other games like Ace Combat, the occasional JRPG, and Goldeneye: Rogue Agent.
Getting real fucking sick of "We're so close to implementing a cool new thing, but fucking GNOME and Wayland developers are being stubborn assholes." as an end user, I like what Wayland does for multi-monitor support and security, but if developers need an X11 feature, Wayland needs to implement it. I'd go try to contribute X11/Wayland patches that fix this myself I had the know how instead of just complaining here, but I don't have that skillset.
I wish developers would just drop GNOME and make it explicitly clear that they should redirect any complaints about it to the GNOME developers for not implementing [link to specific pull request feature they need]. If GNOME wants to do their own thing, let them, but they won't get application support without changes. Everyone else is on the same page, except for GNOME, who tears the pages out of the book out of spite for being unable or unwilling to read.
That's a lot of hope for the wayland protocol discussions that seem to drag on forever
that dev has the most valid wayland take ever. Basically - xorg is bad, but wayland devs are just sitting around scratching their balls. And I couldnt agree more. I watched the video on gnome being upset with the accent colour thing, and I just burst out laughing. It is the job of 70 year old men on boards of google and microsoft to cry about pointless things like that, us developers should be better than that.
And I really appreciate KDE for brute forcing their way through the IME problem, by implementing all 4 versions of text-input protocol.
Man is this space fragmented.
Honestly, setting up IMEs on Linux always was a pain in the ass for me, on multiple distros. I feel so bad for CJK users, because they can't even properly write in their native language without at least some work...
@@hikkamorii at least we can stumble our way to a workable Wayland session with KDE, unlike with the other major DE that shall not be named.
I'm on openSUSE Leap though, where IME works out of the box if selected at install with an X11 session, otherwise it still takes some work.
AFAIK KDE’s SSD lets us register preset widget types for inclusion in your decoration/title bar. Such as a hamburger menu button, media controls, etc.
I liked this compromise and never liked CSD; which could only be sane in a single toolkit ecosystem.
Yup. KDE's powerful SSD is why I am very pro-SSD. Not just placing buttons according to your preference, but you can also just dismiss it... and have window controls and menu in the panel a la Unity. As usual, simple by default, powerful when needed.
As for custom widgets in the title bar, that can be delegated to the client. e.g. give the client a window/canvas for just the widget along with a preferred colour palette and let the client handle the drawing and events. Menu bars and the like could be handled by passing said window to the GUI toolkit that the application is using. (IMO though, menu bars in the title bar are evil.)
That's ironic compared to all of these other applications that are switching.
It makes sense though with this insane amount of inconsistencies and indecisiveness surrounding Wayland.
Thank you GNOME, very cool.
The global menu is really nice when you have limited screen estate like on a laptop. If global menus would work consistently I would configure KDE to switch to scrolling tiling (Karousel KWin script) + global menu when only the built-in laptop screen is in use and switch to stacking with no global menu when external displays are connected.
They're not my thing but if there's an audience it would be nice if they were supported
That's why you use one panel for everything, instead of using docks separately, so you don't waste space.
Global menus are against every single UX rule, by design.
CSD allows you to save space better
@@DanielClear2 @PeakKissShot It's not just about saving space. It's about benefiting from edges as infinite sized cursor targets.
I get that you dislike global menus but I am telling you that people who like them, especially on macOS, like them for a reason.
Personally I find them great on small screens and terrible on large screens. If I lived in Qt-only land, than I would have used a global menu (placed inside one panel used for everything) when using the built-in screen and switch to locally integrated menus (menus in the server side decoration) when connected to external displays. Sadly, non-Qt apps don't always play nice with KDE global menus. KDE Plasma let's me do all of that.
Sorry but no, I want a world where we move away from menus like that. Symbols are so much better than just a list of text for most things.
You can save space way better by just having a minimal UI that shows the users just what they want, and not bombard them with hundreds of options.
DAWs are common applications that _cant_ work on wayland because of window embedding. Any application that uses CLAP. That means software such as bitwig studio will never really work on pure wayland. And the wayland devs refuse to add the protocols to make it work.
That's fair, but do people actually use DAWs on Linux? This sounds like a disaster (no pun intended).
Feels like sometimes this community just goes around in circles.
> Gnome is a complete disaster
Well that's a complete understatement
GNOME being the default for alot of big distros is such a stupid idea considering their stubbornness and refusal to implement certain standards. They are actively harming Wayland progress imo.
Maybe even better if GNOME was dropped from more distros 🤔
EDIT: In hindsight, adding that last note about GNOME being dropped 20 minutes after I made the original comment might have not been the smartest move, given my frustration with GNOME refusing to adapt a standard (again). Looking back at this, I understand why people would want to use GNOME, however, at the same time, I remain convinced that their CSD and their VR shenanigans with Valve do nothing but frustrate developers and users of FOSS. Refusing to adapt to standards for the sake of their (arguably) unpopular vision is a great way to show people how the users and developers do not matter to them, and ultimately, GNOME should not be shipped as default on major distros. GNOME has decided to be a niche product, and the default DE should be something that appeals more to the average user.
It used to be that KDE was buggy and GNOME was the stable thing. In my opinion the tables have turned - GNOME is now the desktop that is annoying and stubborn to use, they make decisions which harm the user experience, and don’t support a lot of stuff which results in unexpected behaviour.
Debian has selection of desktops during installation. Arch allows you to install whatever you want. Baking in DEs is also one of reasons for distro forkbomb in Linux world. Some devs decide "this DE sucks, this theme sucks" - they strap it, bake it in and ship it. "Hey, we have a new distro!" Not much distros really change how system works internally. So whole distro tree can be converged tenfold and stop people from working on downstream.
@@szymex22"yeah guys kde is very stable, kwins only crashed like 4 times today thats the lowest its ever been"
@@szymex22 KDE Wayland is now far superior to GNOME Wayland in most areas. The only concession I can give to GNOME Wayland is that it handles touchpad gestures better, but KDE pretty much beats GNOME in other areas anyway.
1- Actual fractional scaling for XWayland compared to the blurry crap with GNOME
2- More customization to get the workflow I want OOTB
3- More familiar interface for Windows users
4- KDE auto-setting fractional scaling depending on your display on first-time setup
KDE is what the Linux desktop should be, not GNOME.
@@mmkthecoolest exactly, so many of the issues that were annoying me on gnome’s wayland just disappeared when I switched to KDE.
freerdp also deprecated Wayland in favor of SDL on 3.0, though you can still use build options to build it with unmaintained code, since it wasn't removed from the repo yet.
But doesn't sdl Support wayland?
@@keit99 Yes it does, SDL is a great replacement - my point being to list another popular project dropping native Wayland support.
@@danirde dropping wayland in favor of sdl sounded like "dropping Our (custom) wayland Code for SDL which produces better reaults" to me
GNOME developers are basically building a desktop environment for GNOME applications - if you're application isn't using GTK - they're not interested in running it.
I think it's about time all other software developers just stop making and maintaining hacks for supporting GNOME's missing standards and whatnot - users can just deal with not using a standard supporting DE, or move to something better. RedHat can maintain patches for every non-GTK app they want to ship - after they got rid of the freeloaders, they probably have tons of money to do that...
This is almost certainly intentional too.
It's like a lite version of vendor lock-in. GNOME dominates the Linux desktop scene and has horrid support for anything but GTK, so you run a Qt (or any other toolkit) app and it either looks like shit or barely works. So what do you do next? Find a similar app but in GTK. If you don't use GTK as a user, you have a bad experience on Gnome.
Meanwhile, KDE configures GTK themes out of the box to try to make them feel as native as possible.
@@mgord9518
Except for some minor stuff, non gtk apps run well on gnome. I have no idea what you experienced that made you belive that.
@@mgord9518true, but that still isn't a good thing on Gnome's part to limit the possibility.
For example ProtonUpQT is one of the few QT programs that work properly under gtk but every single GTK program works at least semi properly (since they don't completely work correctly all the time) on an QT environment...
@@mgord9518 If we go by what few stats we have , it's more like GNOME has roughly 30% and KDE has roughly 40% and the rest is a bunch of smaller DEs
I use a global menu with windowck so I may combine as many elements with the status tray upon window maximize. CSD ensures this doesnt work at all by duplicating the window title bar for the express purpose of displaying useless images in said title bar. I don't really understand the hiding of the application menus in a single hamburger or kebab menu, then backtracking and saying, "well we'll put some items back, but in the title bar, and images this time to break as many workflows as possible!"
Also, shout out to Catfish for making CSD optional and Xfce for eventually doing the same.
Some big distro should just go ahead and merge the protocols regardless of what gnome vetos, its the quick way to get some forced progress.
Distros don't really do that work, it's the projects
@@BrodieRobertson I agree, I was kinda thinking of a Wayland fork instead of the Wayland main branch.
@@genstian yes like Hyprland did with Wlroots
@@richoumiaou Hyprland just uses a git version of Wlroots
there is a thing called wayland extensions, which don't have to be agreed upon - you could easily start there
About CSD, KDE made a protocol that allows the integration of whatever the hell buttons that gnome wants into SSD. It's just that no one's using it.
Prob cuz most apps wanna remain DE agnostic
I love Gnome, I love the way it looks and feels to use (at least initially), I love the action button up in the top-left corner that (as of Gnome 45 or so) shows me which of my virtual desktops I'm on. But I'm dropping Gnome, because _everything else_ about Gnome is just horrendous. You want to change anything meaningful, say your mouse accel curve? Impossible. Utterly impossible. Alt tabbing has become less than stable on Gnome: in or out of anything that uses Wine, some games want to be on a different virtual desktop, while some games want to be on the _same_ desktop (I'm using games as an example because that's the only thing I use Wine for). It's just heinous, and I just can't deal anymore. Someone needs to make a Gnome flavor and make it good. Rewrite it, fork it, whatever, I don't care. Shit don't work, and I'm frustrated about it.
The full COSMIC DE from System76 seems to be shaping up to be just that. The problem is the lock-in on the side of the major distro though - it'd still be more likely for Ubuntu to move to KDE than a new GNOME replacement, but that's not happening anytime soon (if ever) unless GNOME does something really bad.
Still, Valve's support of KDE has helped a lot and System76 making COSMIC and supporting Smithay has also helped with increasing more members on the board so that GNOME's NACK votes become less relevant.
Wayland will always be the future and x11 the present, just like it has been for the last 10 years.
I hadn't yet tried Gnome in Wayland, but learning they don't support server side decorations in Wayland makes the idea of ever using Gnome again a non-starter. Many applications, even if they're ported to Wayland, are not going to want to do client side decorations. That's not work applications developers want to do on their side most of the time, and sometimes the toolkit will handle that for the app developer, but not always, and IMO libdecor is a ugly workaround for the Gnome project's ass-backwardness that I don't blame any app developers for preferring to avoid. In fact, I'd prefer most apps don't use client side decorations, with the main exception of applications with tabbed interfaces like web browsers.
As a user:
- I prefer my window decorations usually have matching theming to the extent it is feasible
- Most applications have no good reason to do anything special with their decorations
- We live in a world where many different toolkits are used (as much as the Gnome project wants to push the idea of a GTK-only world)
As a developer:
- It's not uncommon that I develop with no toolkit
- Window decorations are outside the scope of what my applications want to do anything with
- I strongly prefer to avoid extraneous dependencies (i.e. libdecor) that are not required by my application's core functionality
- CSD meshes somewhat awkwardly with alternate windowing schemes like tiling window manager. It's weird as hell that the Wayland ecosystem seems to make CSD the default, yet doesn't let windows position themselves. Conceptually it feels to me like CSD should go hand-in-hand with an application being able to position itself. The state of things is completely warped and ass-backwards, and I'm convinced it's due to everyone else involved with Wayland bending over backwards to appease Gnome.
Yep, currently developing an application with glfw, and libdecor crashes for some reason, so I've disabled it and rely on SSD. Gnome's just not going to have decorations for now, and I don't care (small app, and I don't use gnome).
@@vocassen This is the attitude everyone should have taken rather than having toolkits rendering hideous default headerbars. It's GNOME's problem to fix, and if they want their users to have a usable experience, then they should fix it rather than relying on the rest of the world to clean up after them.
Problem for me is Synergy literally can't work on Wayland as it needs a Wayland module adding to handle input device capture/spoofing.
I also need a virtual tigervnc desktop, its going to be annoying to no longer be able to use KDE for this (am I'm on Fedora) as I hate every other DE I've tried.
If we ever want to achieve software salvation we need some way to iterate on all these APIs. Perfecting the design takes forever (and can still fail) while being stuck with a terrible interface for the next decade sucks equally bad
The pinned comment thread has me dying with laughter. Brodie, please never change.
Isn't/wasn't global menu not a Unity thing? I cannot think of a single Linux DE still using it, unless the user installs an extension.
5:43 Funny how we are basically reimplementing everything X11 under the XDG label now. Why shoot yourself in the foot, when X11 already works for most use cases?
The Xorg project is in need of maintainers and I'm sure would appreciate your advice
aside from The brodie unfunny regurgitation of "you maintain x11 now". its funny how wayland started with "reinventing the way desktops are" to slowly realizing it just needs to be a x11 replacement. If wayland started in the beginning as just a x11 replacement for the modern desktop world maybe the move to wayland would be a lot more smoother
@@Cstar64 I still see Wayland as a solution looking for a problem.
@@BrodieRobertson You keep saying that but the simple fact is that X just works. I've analyzed and contributed fixes for X-related bugs (client side) but I've yet to come across one in the X server itself. Should I encounter one I'll contribute a fix but I haven't encountered one yet and I've been using X literally for decades.
@@alexhajnal107 There are tons of open issues on the project right now
I'm a pcxs2 user, been playing through the xenosaga series on my Wayland desktop. I don't want us to keep going back to x11, it just makes no sense to be so reliant on a massive unmaintained project. That said I agree the Wayland and GTK/gnome devs need to STFU and start to listen to software developers
Won't Happen, Not since GTK3
You don't have to go back to the X11 session, just use Xwayland. I already do that for RPCS3 because it's also broken on wayland (at least for Nvidia).
Actually that's what the PCSX2 flatpak does by default, the Wayland permission is disabled by default.
PCSX2's native wayland support can still be enabled, it's just not on by default and not in the UI, so people stop complaining about problems that are not their fault.
I'm staying with X cause of libinput-gestures with touche, Wayland doesn't really allow configuration. Using those tools with a trackpad, such as a magic trackpad 2 you have a wide array of shortcuts at your fingertips. I'll just wait a couple of years until it is matured a bit better.
I currently use libinput gestures on hyprland with no issues
@@comfysage There would not be any issues if you are not looking for them. I use libinput-gestures for a 3/4 finger tab for shortcuts. Touche for 4 fingers swipe to change desktop. 3 finger shortcuts are wide open to any modification. 2 fingers are usually in use. It even allows for in-window gestures. Libinput even supports upright, rightup and so forth.
Will Hyprland do the same on Wayland? To be honest, its one of the few things holding me back from switching. I mean, I already configured KDE to be a tiling window manager.
Been playing “Smugglers Run 2”!
Looking for old games i used to play as a kid for my kid.
Been fun
I srsly just wish that desktops and apps will start independently looking over the suggested protocols and basically say fuck all to waiting for stuff to be officially implemented and start including things that work, basically force wayland to support the protocols just by virtue of that's what used. I think they kinda proved usability isn't their top priority and that pisses me off. It's like, is this a production oriented graphic stack or a pet project? Bc if it's the former, stop acting like it's the latter, start putting the users first.
I think most people just don't know how it works. There is Wayland core and Wayland extensions, the latter don't need to be agreed upon by each desktop.
If you just go out and implement everything then wayland won't be any better than X11.
A big reason why wayland is so good is because it restricts app freedom and gives it back to the user.
Yes, they should implement more protocols but they need to be done right.
@@taukakao I agree that they shouldn't implement every new thing, but if you have something like multi windows issue, and there's a solution ready to go for years and it's on hold just bc the wayland ppl don't want implement something that act like x11, you know what? Yeah. I kinda wish kde will start using it. (Bc when kde implement something a lot of qt apps implement it and it snowball)
@@taukakao That's one heck of an Orwellian statement. _cf._ X11 where the applications are given wide freedom to choose the approach that works best for them *and* the end user has final, overriding say over what the application actually does or is permitted to do.
@@alexhajnal107
This is so far from reality.
For example, applications using the approach they want means they can choose an approach the user absolutely hates and if the user wants to change that, they will probably break the app because it's completely undefined behavior.
And no, I would argue this is the exact opposite of Orwellian.
In X11, the app gets the say on what happens on your PC, not you, that's what I call Orwellian.
4:15 their lack of support for stuff like ssd will soon enough make me switch to either kde or maybe i'll join the world of tiling window managers
As pcsx2 devs said: stop making a drama where there is none.
god I love videos like this. Linux is such a disaster it's so nice knowing I'm not the only one suffering.
Linux is not a disaster, Linux is amazing. But there are lots of problems with desktops and Wayland, but that has not so much to do with Linux itself.
Linux isn't the disaster, the desktop environments are like 99% of the cause of the issues people have with Linux... The kernel isn't way but waaaaaaaaaaaaay more stable than the mess of the NT kernel that Windows ships....
I know that the BSD kernels are also rock solid but for a common desktop/server kernel that is so widely used with so many things strapped into it it is way to stable....
All I want for Christmas is an updated LRPS2 (PCSX2 fork) libretro core for RetroArch.
I use PCSX2 to play steambot chronicles. One of my fav games. It's exclusive for PS2 and a has always been real bitch to emulate for the longest time because it came out pretty late in the console's life and it apparently uses some PS2 GPU magic, but recently I got a laptop with a beefy enough CPU to run the ntsc 60 fps version full speed with 16:9 wide mode. I only use X, so I didn't have any problems wayland problems with the program xd
Really waiting for that Cosmic DE
Ugh, Gnome, Gnome, Gnome and the love-hate relationship.
Can we get non-extreme situations on the Linux land? lmao
I like Wayland quite a bit. it's buttery smooth on something like Sway or Hyprland. Gnome and KDE are not my cup of tea. I suppose once XFCE goes full Wayland then the future will be here!
That migration update already broken one my system with full login lockdown into desktop by some loop error, forced to do full reinstall.
been playing dark cloud on pcsx2, not having wayland support hurts.
You can always use it through Xwayland
I am a KDE plasma user and I use the Wayland session. What no one seems to mention is the benefits of switching SDDM to use a Wayland session rather than X11 (the arch wiki page on SDDM tells you everything you need to know). Since doing this I have noticed a very nice jump in graphics performance and one or two glitches just disappeared instantly. I have not done direct comparisons, but I suspect it may be at the root of many of those problems that only effect very specific set-ups and environments. As far as I can tell no distro ships with this setting (yet) but it is well worth a try !
The Wayland development team has been at this for 15 years and are basically in an early beta stage, which is where they should have been 10-12 years ago. Today, we are talking about serious issues MAYBE being fixed in 2-3 years? So when do we decide that maybe this was not the way to go?
What's the alternative, nobody wants to touch X11, mir is a Wayland compositor now and arcan... well it's arcan
@BrodieRobertson I'm on my Xorg desktop and I'm not complaining. It's great. What need does Wayland address that I have? I'm not aware of a single thing.
@@peterixxxsecurity
@@peterixxx IIRC Wayland was initially created to solve issues that the initial version of X11's DRI had. Said issues were resolved with DRI2 (released in March 2008) and included with the next release of Xorg (February 2009) and X11 (October 2009). Wayland first released at the end of September 2008. So as far as I can tell Wayland solved a problem that had already been solved.
@@peterixxxmonitors with different refresh rates are what did it for me
In my application I use window embedding. This is impossible in wayland and wayland devs refuse to implement it (they are against the idea). So my application will have to be forever X11 only.
I also have another application that is impossible for some wayland compositors, and that is running replay buffer (screen recording) on system startup without a popup asking what you want to record every single time. So nvidia shadowplay/switch/etc like auto replay cant be done nicely on wayland. It can be done if you bypass wayland, but that requires root access and in flatpak that requires tons of hacks.
I honestly do know why window embedding is needed. Care to share why you're application needs it?
@@cameronbosch1213 The embedded window needs to integrate with the main application and inputs need to be received by the other application to control the embedded application. This is also done in many professional applications (such as daws). This even increases security because of process separation and possibility of sandboxing. Which should be of interest to wayland devs. Instead a wayland dev unironically recommends you to instead create your own entire wayland compositor, embed that into your application and proxy the embedded application to your embedded wayland compositor. That is crazy.
Lauch your embedded window with your app as wayland compositor, compose it, done. Wayland devs made sure that nesting works properly and without performance impact.
@@aoeuable Seek help immediately, before it's too late
Has Wayland really not implemented embedding yet? That's really basic functionality that's useful in a myriad of situations. (You're referring to *XReparentWindow,* etc. correct?)
Large projects need an autocracy. Having a "diplomatic" process just results in an endless gaggle of arguing and compromise that kills potential.
Can you imagine the state of the Linux kernel if they had this design by committee approach to development? We would all be using BSD!
The Linux kernel is a great example of large scale management, whilst Linus or Greg depending on the day are the last points before things get fully merged. Each subsystem has it's own maintainership so it's kind of like a bunch of sub projects that collaborate on one larger project.
@@BrodieRobertson Emulating Linux project management should be a goal imo. It may not be perfect. But damn you can't argue with the results.
I'd say one of the biggest issues is allowing a single core developer to unilaterally block features/code.
Hi Brodie ! THANK YOU for this video ! finally a callout for App developers to talk with the Wayland and portal devs, i'm using PCSX2 to play my childhood games (Midnight Club 2 and 3)
without this app i just can't..
Aether on Android got abandoned because toxic comunity i'm so sad for this and the dev.. (there is no alternatives the others on android are just scams)
Another thing, just ignore Gnome devs (not all, just the hostile ones, especially the one holding the Linux desktop back without good reasons) to create Wayland, Portals, ect...
Gnome's app ecosystem still the best and i'm a plasma user so there's that..
If the Wayland developers are the same as those of Gnome, they have been "working" for 15 years to provide a product that does not even reach alpha
I had to disable Wayland in my VM, due to it made VSCode (and VSCodium) unusable if the window is resized.
The problems with being an advocate in the foss world are ppl who say: You are just one person and can't change anything, What do you think you are paying for when you are not paying we are all volunteers, You can just fix that in your own fork. Edit: Why are you asking about something we won't fix you should have known our position on this issue without having to ask.
1. Simpsons Hit&Run
2. I'm on KDE X11 on my main, laptop and Steam Deck.
I use PCSX2 daily to play Dark Cloud 1 and 2
I didn't know that global menu thing was a thing, I've been using a widget made by someone else that did the same thing but more buggy in Wayland, the actual KDE one is not buggy, however you can't customise it in any way.
The reason I use it is because it saves on screen space as it hides the menu from each window of programs that have a menu like that. What I love about Linux/KDE, you can customise it exactly how you want it.
Wayland might finally kill Linux on the desktop for good this time
I REALLY can't wait for a stable release of COSMIC Rust; I'd like GNOME without the anal-retentiveness
This drama seems inherent to linux community, just about a decade ago there also similar drama with OSS, ALSA, Pulse Audio ...
Oh, the global menu in KDE has been plenty buggy and continues to be in some cases. Don't you worry.
I use KDE and never had issues with global menu, can you elaborate?
how is the csd thing a one way problem, firefox disables csd no?
What is the point of wayland if it makes more problems rather than solve problems ?
Yes I use pcsx2. I've never had issues on wayland. I'm using KDE and running it through the flatpak. I knew the GNOME implementation was buggy but I didn't expect it to have that many issues lol.
Btw, the games I've been playing are the SMT: Digital Devil Saga duology.
I tried using Gnome. But when i had to install 20 extensions just to do what I want to do on KDE out of the box i stopped bothering. It does look nice tho
in 5 years Brodie will make a video on how X11 is the best and how wayland was only hype. I use PCSX2 to play Xenosaga Trilogy.
What were to happen if I flashed a UV light on your anime figurines back on your shelf?
Probably see a lot of dust
Switched to Wayland on Gnome since I bought an Intel Arc card. I disabled flipping on Nvidia for monitor setup with different refresh rates, but it wasn't an option for Intel, so I had to migrate for 144hz desktop experience.
Desktop environment? Just launch a fullscreen browser window and CSS it. 😜
It makes perfect sense to not support platforms that aren't working well, it's a headache. Whatever issues they percieve must be understood as legitimate because best case for wayland they've communicated too poorly or don't support this usecase. For a developer to support a platform that has issues means some concession like the wayland userbase or reasons that aren't related to your application like political/future optimism/rejection of the old.
Just drop GNOME from Wayland discussions (consider their points but not allow them to veto anything).
How good is XWayland compared to X11 ?
As I understand it, any core Wayland developer can veto any idea/code with no recourse. That includes removing powers from existing members (including themselves). Kind of like the UN Security Council. I'd refer to a source to back this up but Wayland appears to be *very* opaque about their governance. If someone has some better info on this please reply.
The problem is that the Gnome Project will probably just suffer through not having Apps, just to not admit that they are wrong. I could see Wayland actually getting abandoned by users if Gnome keeps vetoing every good and useful protocol.
To be fair the only "apps" I use on my work PC are already a browser, various versions of a browser pretending to be an application, and the system settings.
Eh. A lot of Linux apps still use GTK, and more are made with Libadwaita. I've heard that the dev experience is great if you fit into their design guidelines, but there are a lot of users who don't agree with those guidelines and even among devs once you start to get to something really complicated like Bottles, it's just more hassle than its worth. Most apps aren't Bottles, though, that's why you get a lot more new apps using Libadwaita.
Quality rant by the developer
The irony in GNOME devs refusing to help bridge multiwindow support for WL on GTK when their most renowned app, GIMP, is a multi window app.
To be pedantic, GTK was created by the GIMP developers for internal use. Gnome later adopted it as their GUI toolkit.
2:10 I'm pretty sure MacOS does actually have SSDs and titlebars - they tend to use whichever is most appropriate for the program in question as their design standard - the example image you showed literally has a program with a titlebar in it (Finder). The only difference is they've made it so that the titlebar blends nicely where used, or just doesn't take up too much space. This is opposite of GNOME where you just end up with a hideous enormous default headerbar. Frankly, other toolkits should simply refuse to render "default headerbars" if their program doesn't come with one. This is GNOME's problem to deal with, not the rest of the world. It's not everyone else's applications that are broken, it's GNOME. If enough people complain that they can't drag windows on GNOME, the GNOME developers will be forced to finally come to a (correct) decision.
They do, maybe I didn't word it correctly but what I was getting at was when MacOS does CSD it's generally done quite well in a way that fits in with the environment
This was very informative! Thank you.
Yup I use pcsx2 because better graphics of modern games makes it hard for my screwy retinas to make out what I’m doing. I also picked mint for the desktop I run it on and I’m feeling relief like nothing else. Bring on longer X support and a wake-up call for waylaid.
To be fair I have good vision and some modern games go way over the top with effects
If I was forced to do CSD I would just make the most basic thing and the window would look like it came straight from Win95
How do I even go about submitting a bug report? I'm in KDE plasma 5.27.9 so the bug might be fixed in a later version. Do I need to get the lastest version and check if the bug is still there?
In the KDE bugtracker you can select which Version this affects. (or write which Version it's on. (or Look for a similar Bug report and See the Status on that.
Ideally, yes you should test plasma 6 beta to see if it still occurs.
I don't know how it's on KDE, but in general you should first try to find if the issue has already been reported (maybe even fixed), give additional information on an existing report, or create a new one if there is none.
As for the version, if it's difficult for you to test something on the latest version, the best thing you can do to help a developer is give step-by-step instructions on how they can reproduce the issue on your version, and the developer will be able to test it on whatever version by following those steps.
gnome should use ssd too, i mean if you want to have custom decorations, you can just create undecorated window, and put the decorations by yourself.
TBH.... Let's hope more developers take this turn, we can still make wayland fail!
I always look forward to the white board
I don't actively dislike GNOME, but I choose not to use it for many of the reasons above. GNOME is more of an infected wound now than anything, and I know there's people that love it, but I cannot stand how they do things.
GNOME went downhill since 3.0, and never recovered.
i used PCSX2 to play "rule of rose" of of my FAV games
Is it just me, or has software on Linux been getting worse since the aggressive push to Wayland? Used to be X11 worked fine. Now both X11 and Wayland are becoming equally as buggy. This is on KDE. I’m debating dropping it for xfce to see if it’s any better and sticking with X
A lot of it's down to the distros. Code is being pushed out to production that really shouldn't have been. At least for Ubuntu it's been getting progressively worse over the past 10 years or so. (I've got 16 pages of notes on just the changes needed to get my "new" Ubuntu system functioning on par with my old install. A lot of things were broken out of the box, Wayland being one of them. X11, thankfully, just worked.)
@@alexhajnal107 hmm good to know. I’m using MX Linux KDE. I’d assume any quirks would also be present on vanilla Debian 12. It only seems to happen with a handful of applications, not everything. Mostly Steam has become less stable even less so than its debut on Linux
A hyprland user here, I play games like Castlevania, Resident Evil 4 and God of War 2 on PCSX2