I feel like when people learn enough about the craft of storytelling, they accept some level of planning or outlining no matter what. I see most of the resistance come from beginners and stubborn amateurs. You may not need an extremely detailed outline, but to write enthralling and plot-driving scenes one must understand things like wants, needs and motivations. Those are either found by planning (outlining) your plot, or your characters, or both. If I were to write a screenwriting book, it would be called: "Dr. Scenelove (or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Outline)." You must understand where you are taking the audience in order to craft the most interesting path to get there. This isn't to say I don't write scenes before the outline sometimes, or free write some ideas to get started. There are times when I just need to get an idea or a scene out on the page. But when you are ready to actually create an entire story with legs of its own, I feel like having that structure as a sort of safety net allows me to be even more free with my writing within a scene. I can try different versions of a scene and still know where it comes from and where it's going. I know my character's motivations and understand better how to serve the story through their decision making.
I'm primarily an outliner but I find I need to occasionally free write to make sure I get stuff written down. And then back to outlining to sort everything out. I recently come to the analogy of using a map. Ideally you want to go the shortest distance from point A to point B but you probably going to take a detour due to traffic, an accident, or being asked to pick up something along the way.
@@SEAZNDragon Everything is about balance. I could outline in as much detail as possible for ten years and the moment I begin to write for real learn something new. For me it is about that back and forth. Outline, write, reasses the outline, write, and so on. Throw in the occasional crisis where I realise a fundamental mistake that makes me want to give up.
@@DenkyManner this is standard for real writers. All the 100% pantsers are just amateurs that wrote trash-novels online and got likes by low standard readers. And now they are experts and don't need outlines.
I can see it both ways. I used to wonder: How do I know the outline is working or not? An architect has math formulas to make sure her blueprints are sound. A chef can taste his original recipe not too long after planning it out. But how does a writer know when the outline is working, unless the outline stands on its own as a good story? Most outlines I've seen are dry. And those that do make for good stories on their own don't need to be expanded to work. I answered these questions for myself only recently. Also, somewhat related to this... There are TH-cam channels now that recap anime and movies. Watching these channels, you can easily tell the difference between a story rife with filler, and one that needs to be explored in more depth.
They hate it because they are pantsers and not plotters. Every one has a different creative process. Outlines for a pantser would be editing tool instead of a generation tool.
@@theatheistpaladin I just watched a compilation of the 'Breaking Bad' writers room discussing their process. They're sort of a hybrid between pantsing and plotting. They use the 4 act and a teaser structure, but they don't force the characters to do anything. And they often write themselves into difficult corners. They hash out the beats of each episode without knowing about what happens down the road. In the case of 'Better Call Saul', they didn't know if Howard was who he seemed to be. They didn't know if Jimmy and Kim had been romantically implicated or not. So they kind of dug up the truth one episode of story structure at a time. That's like outlining one chapter at a time, rather than a whole novel or season of tv.
I think outlines are really useful. The problem is misconception that an outline has to iron out every detail and be rigidly followed, when it's only a safety net. I do think that different minds think in different ways, though. For some the idea of figuring out each turning point at once feels exhausting. In the end, a discovery writer just has to fix (or not) all the things in their story that they could have known in the outline. But it's still easier for them to do it that way.
I like the connection to structure and commercials. Particularly people's preference to watch 12, ten-minute "acts"/"segments" over the equivalent two-hour movie. A 2 hour movie is such a commitment. But a 10 minute video? I got time for that. Me, 12 hours later...😵💫
And for the first time, I finally get it. Until I watched this I was one of those who just wanted to just jump in and write. I now understand writing the outline is like laying a foundation for a building. I definitely wouldn't want to be inside any building that didn't have a firm foundation, how can I build a strong script without one as well? I will certainly be watching more of these videos by Pamela Douglas as well as other Film Courage. Thank you very much.🎬
Generally five act for hour-length stuff I am pitching to production companies who primarily sell to network broadcasters. This is in the UK, where a TV hour is longer than a US TV hour.
I had almost forgot about the four act structure. Great reminders. Thank you. Yeah, outlining can be as fun as writing dialogue in the actual outline. If the outline feels boring it probably is, but keep going until it gets good and it all just unravels by itself.
This is why Americans shows are hard to watch here in the UK as we don’t have anywhere near as many adverts (commercials), so it looks really weird when a scene you’ve just watched gets repeated straight away - because presumably the second instance would’ve followed a commerical break in the US.
To paraphrase Kazuo Ishiguro, outlining or not outlining is just about when you start writing. An outline just means you make decisions first. Discovery writing, you make decisions as you go. To paraphrase McKee, minor change leads to moderate change, leads to major change and ultimately irreversible change at the climax. You don't want repetitious change. It's boring.
man i haven't seen a video from this channel in my recommended for a while but now that i watched some hope they end up in my recommended or ill just have check up more often
Actually, as a writer myself, I just wanted to correct her opening statement. One hour network dramas generally has a teaser and 5 acts. Not simply 4 acts.
But I *think* the fifth act is usually what she’s referring to as the “tag”, as someone people consider it an act. She certainly sounds like she knows what she’s talking about.
Awesome interview 👍🏾 I think outlines are more important now that most people have short attention span. Make it intriguing, make it exciting, get to the point lol 😅😅
I’ve timed commercial breaks and show content after that first act, WAY TO OFTEN do commercials run longer than some acts and it’s sad for the viewer and the show
If you're going to write without an outline, then you should be a novelist instead of a screenplay writer. Tolkien, Asimov, Stephen King, Mark Twain, Joyce, Neil Gaiman, and Hemmingway didn't outline, but they also didn't write screenplays.
I believe she used this expression as a mean to compare what was available then (only/mostly TV with all those advertisements) versus what is now : more available with huuge choice streaming options and Tv channels without advertisements
I'm one of the people who enjoy engineering a story structure much more than writing, probably mostly because I don't know how to write good prose lol.
@@corporaterobotslave400 Or option 2 is to take the 5 act structure and structure the pacing of the show to fit into 11 minutes or however long the show is. I personally feel like learning to use that 5 act structure gives you more diversity in the shows you can work on but the link I sent above has one of the guys who worked on the original teen titans on there so it's up to you.
Honestly whether it is a 3 Act or a 4 Act structure. It's both the same. One says he writes 3 Acts with a midpoint. And someone that likes saying he uses 4 Acts finds evidence that 4 Acts work in a media that was written by someone who says he used a 3 Act structure. Who cares. It's discussion about semantics in the end. Just don't forget the midpoint. lol.
![Writing The TV Drama Series - Pamela Douglas [FULL INTERVIEW]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Gvw2xwGoIOM/mqdefault.jpg)
I feel like when people learn enough about the craft of storytelling, they accept some level of planning or outlining no matter what. I see most of the resistance come from beginners and stubborn amateurs. You may not need an extremely detailed outline, but to write enthralling and plot-driving scenes one must understand things like wants, needs and motivations. Those are either found by planning (outlining) your plot, or your characters, or both. If I were to write a screenwriting book, it would be called: "Dr. Scenelove (or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Outline)." You must understand where you are taking the audience in order to craft the most interesting path to get there. This isn't to say I don't write scenes before the outline sometimes, or free write some ideas to get started. There are times when I just need to get an idea or a scene out on the page. But when you are ready to actually create an entire story with legs of its own, I feel like having that structure as a sort of safety net allows me to be even more free with my writing within a scene. I can try different versions of a scene and still know where it comes from and where it's going. I know my character's motivations and understand better how to serve the story through their decision making.
I'm primarily an outliner but I find I need to occasionally free write to make sure I get stuff written down. And then back to outlining to sort everything out. I recently come to the analogy of using a map. Ideally you want to go the shortest distance from point A to point B but you probably going to take a detour due to traffic, an accident, or being asked to pick up something along the way.
@@SEAZNDragon Everything is about balance. I could outline in as much detail as possible for ten years and the moment I begin to write for real learn something new. For me it is about that back and forth. Outline, write, reasses the outline, write, and so on. Throw in the occasional crisis where I realise a fundamental mistake that makes me want to give up.
@@DenkyManner this is standard for real writers. All the 100% pantsers are just amateurs that wrote trash-novels online and got likes by low standard readers. And now they are experts and don't need outlines.
If you write for commercials, even if there are none, you end up with intense plot points
Yes, if you write with commercials in mind you leave your audience with cliffhangers after each act
Idk why people hate writing outlines; I love it and use it as a safety net to ensure my first drafts are done as fast as possible.
I can see it both ways. I used to wonder: How do I know the outline is working or not?
An architect has math formulas to make sure her blueprints are sound.
A chef can taste his original recipe not too long after planning it out.
But how does a writer know when the outline is working, unless the outline stands on its own as a good story?
Most outlines I've seen are dry. And those that do make for good stories on their own don't need to be expanded to work.
I answered these questions for myself only recently.
Also, somewhat related to this...
There are TH-cam channels now that recap anime and movies.
Watching these channels, you can easily tell the difference between a story rife with filler, and one that needs to be explored in more depth.
I hated them until I wrote my first pilot and realized how much I needed it.
They hate it because they are pantsers and not plotters. Every one has a different creative process. Outlines for a pantser would be editing tool instead of a generation tool.
@@theatheistpaladin I just watched a compilation of the 'Breaking Bad' writers room discussing their process.
They're sort of a hybrid between pantsing and plotting.
They use the 4 act and a teaser structure, but they don't force the characters to do anything. And they often write themselves into difficult corners.
They hash out the beats of each episode without knowing about what happens down the road.
In the case of 'Better Call Saul', they didn't know if Howard was who he seemed to be. They didn't know if Jimmy and Kim had been romantically implicated or not.
So they kind of dug up the truth one episode of story structure at a time.
That's like outlining one chapter at a time, rather than a whole novel or season of tv.
I think outlines are really useful. The problem is misconception that an outline has to iron out every detail and be rigidly followed, when it's only a safety net. I do think that different minds think in different ways, though. For some the idea of figuring out each turning point at once feels exhausting. In the end, a discovery writer just has to fix (or not) all the things in their story that they could have known in the outline. But it's still easier for them to do it that way.
I like the connection to structure and commercials. Particularly people's preference to watch 12, ten-minute "acts"/"segments" over the equivalent two-hour movie. A 2 hour movie is such a commitment. But a 10 minute video? I got time for that. Me, 12 hours later...😵💫
This technical stuff is actually fascinating. Thank you for what you do!
And for the first time, I finally get it. Until I watched this I was one of those who just wanted to just jump in and write. I now understand writing the outline is like laying a foundation for a building. I definitely wouldn't want to be inside any building that didn't have a firm foundation, how can I build a strong script without one as well? I will certainly be watching more of these videos by Pamela Douglas as well as other Film Courage. Thank you very much.🎬
Her book is what got me into researching tv structure.
What structure did you use on your last tv script?
I just always use 4 Act Structure, although 5 Act seems simple enough.
Generally five act for hour-length stuff I am pitching to production companies who primarily sell to network broadcasters. This is in the UK, where a TV hour is longer than a US TV hour.
Thank for all your vídeos
Cheers Nelson!
I had almost forgot about the four act structure. Great reminders. Thank you.
Yeah, outlining can be as fun as writing dialogue in the actual outline. If the outline feels boring it probably is, but keep going until it gets good and it all just unravels by itself.
I love outlines. I just need to generate them faster. Great discussion, thanks Pamela Douglas and Film Courage
This is why Americans shows are hard to watch here in the UK as we don’t have anywhere near as many adverts (commercials), so it looks really weird when a scene you’ve just watched gets repeated straight away - because presumably the second instance would’ve followed a commerical break in the US.
The outline is not lost on me. Actually makes the process easier because you know where you're going. It's a map.
Beautifully said at the end
To paraphrase Kazuo Ishiguro, outlining or not outlining is just about when you start writing. An outline just means you make decisions first. Discovery writing, you make decisions as you go.
To paraphrase McKee, minor change leads to moderate change, leads to major change and ultimately irreversible change at the climax. You don't want repetitious change. It's boring.
man i haven't seen a video from this channel in my recommended for a while but now that i watched some hope they end up in my recommended or ill just have check up more often
Cheers! Hope you find value here during your visits. New video up every day at 5pm PST
@@filmcourage thanks i didn't know that and im sure I will find value :D
_l e g a c y t e l e v i s i o n_ Never thought I'd hear that term. I'm in my twenties but that makes me feel old
Super conversation with Pamela and it is enlightening
Actually, as a writer myself, I just wanted to correct her opening statement. One hour network dramas generally has a teaser and 5 acts. Not simply 4 acts.
But I *think* the fifth act is usually what she’s referring to as the “tag”, as someone people consider it an act. She certainly sounds like she knows what she’s talking about.
Awesome interview 👍🏾 I think outlines are more important now that most people have short attention span. Make it intriguing, make it exciting, get to the point lol 😅😅
She is like I am plugging this book even if u don't
Funny she mentioned Handmaid’s Tale as I was just thinking she reminds me of Margaret Atwood!
Outline always!
I’ve timed commercial breaks and show content after that first act, WAY TO OFTEN do commercials run longer than some acts and it’s sad for the viewer and the show
If you're going to write without an outline, then you should be a novelist instead of a screenplay writer.
Tolkien, Asimov, Stephen King, Mark Twain, Joyce, Neil Gaiman, and Hemmingway didn't outline, but they also didn't write screenplays.
Hearing someone refer to advertised television as “ “way back in the early 2000s” legitimately has me depressed 😂 Am I that old?
I believe she used this expression as a mean to compare what was available then (only/mostly TV with all those advertisements) versus what is now : more available with huuge choice streaming options and Tv channels without advertisements
I'm one of the people who enjoy engineering a story structure much more than writing, probably mostly because I don't know how to write good prose lol.
The challenge is to find someone else who has the opposite strength.
These Rock!
I guess I'm weird because i actually do like doing outlines.
Marvel is a master of the tag. That’s the mid credit and post credit scenes.
4 acts, tease, and tail are all about the commercials. See the original Star Trek episodes.
How do you apply this to 11 minute animation episodes? [i.e. Teen Titans, Space Ghost, etc]
1 act
@@pentelegomenon1175 was that a complete answer?
@@corporaterobotslave400 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@corporaterobotslave400 Option 1 is to check this out th-cam.com/video/xX3wSsGHodQ/w-d-xo.html
@@corporaterobotslave400 Or option 2 is to take the 5 act structure and structure the pacing of the show to fit into 11 minutes or however long the show is. I personally feel like learning to use that 5 act structure gives you more diversity in the shows you can work on but the link I sent above has one of the guys who worked on the original teen titans on there so it's up to you.
I've always outlined but I'm an organized bastard.
One minute per page. I found that lately is almost one minute per scene.
Honestly whether it is a 3 Act or a 4 Act structure. It's both the same.
One says he writes 3 Acts with a midpoint. And someone that likes saying he uses 4 Acts finds evidence that 4 Acts work in a media that was written by someone who says he used a 3 Act structure.
Who cares. It's discussion about semantics in the end.
Just don't forget the midpoint. lol.
Oh yeah. I haven't watched TV Since the late 80s. I will not continue watching content with commercials. I will just shut it off and read a book.