As one fairly new to Lutheranism, this is helpful. My Baptist/non-denominational background may replace the word “experience” with “decision” (sing with me: “I have decided to follow Jesus…”). I have been trying to sort out my journey from that paradigm, and this short video is helpful.
"The rest is history" guys were reading modern low church evangelicals into Luther's theology. I'm not even Lutheran and I could easily see that they didn't read any of Luther's works, catechism or confessions
I wish other Christians understood monergism. Sometimes it seems as difficult to get them to understand it as it would be to tell Ayn Rand to believe. American Christianity is struggling with the Gospel because of centuries of false teachings, some intentional (Church infiltration) and some out of unfortunate ignorance. Praise the Lord for His patience with us. Thank you for all your efforts to spread the Truth of the Gospel, Dr Cooper!
I have never been comfortable with the phrase 'One-Time Personal Conversion Experience', often worded as the following question 'when did you come to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour'. Such a notion is not biblical, and not historical. The insistence on having a One-Time Conversion Experience is injurious to means of grace that God has established.
Exactly. If there is any point of the Christian life that Scripture identifies as the definitive moment of 'getting saved,' it is Baptism, not initial conversion.
Curious should those of us who have had a “conversion experience” ignore it? I’ve come to realize it’s not normative but I do believe that are real for some . I was baptized as a baby but was “converted” at 42 .
@henrylesliegraham Are you born again? If so, is that a process or an event? As believers, we may or may not know the moment of our conversion, but we can be sure that we were/are converted. We may not have a dramtic conversion story like the Apostle Paul, but that doesn't mean that conversion isn't an event that happens, a moment when God opens our hearts to recieve the Gospel. Is the assurance of your salvation solely through external means, or is it also through the internal witness of the Holy Spirit?
I remember being in high school and would from time to time attend some more evangelical based bible studies. Being a lifelong Lutheran I’ve always remembered being Christian, and felt inadequate to the point to (and to my shame) where I would dramatize normal teenage experiences and make them sound like born again experiences just to fit in.
This has been highly valuable! Though a beautiful experience, salvation is ‘more than a feeling’. As I look back on my life, I’ve come to realize that the Wonderful Councelor has been with me a very long time, guiding me on right paths, even though I was ignorant of His presence.
You are right. Just as John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. It can happen but is not the norm it would seem. Jesus says come and follow me and he will lead you to the Kingdom. We must be born again. We feel the affect of the Holy Spirit but we don't know how He comes or goes. Hebrews quotes Jeremiah in saying that He will write his laws on our hearts in the new covenant. Sorry for the long answer. I wanted to write this for myself too. I am brought up Lutheran and have seen the teachings of the Church fail dramatically in growing the church spiritually and physically. Yet I am increasingly convinced that the teachings themselves are not wrong. Just not applied very well.
This thing of having to watch smart and respected people put forth uneducated assertions (or sometimes just blatant lies) about Lutheranism or any subject for that matter is almost the peak of frustration. It’s like laying and smoothing cement and then watching the neighbor’s dog walk across it before it dries… but the neighbor is a lawyer so he wipes his hands clean and finds a way to claim you are liable for both the cement and the dog’s cleaning bill. All the work of having to undo the knots they handed you is on you. Uggh
If I’m not mistaken, John Wesley actually does say things like that in his earlier writings (the feeling of assurance- “the Spirit bearing witness in our own spirit” is a necessary part of salvation that would be experienced in a single moment) when he was more influenced by the Moravians (who were, I believe, German pietists). I think Wesley moderated this view as he got older, certainly later Methodists did.
Having recently read John Wesley’s Journal, I would definitely say that while his views on this changed over time, he believed that in many cases salvation could be found in a single experience. While visiting the Moravians based in Aldergate in 1738, he listened to someone read Luther’s Preface to the book of Romans, and while listening realized that faith could be “given in a moment of time.” Following this experience he became a new man, full of peace and joy. Yet he also believed that salvation was a lifelong pursuit. He recounts how men turn from their faithful lives, being devoted to God, into drunkenness and debauchery, yet in the end return to Christ, overjoyed by the fact that their sins have been forgiven. Toward the end of his life I think he realized that he had more questions than answers. From his journal entries he seemed to be less judgmental toward people battling sin. He considered Luther, first instance, a man who was wrong in many respects but who was used by God for great good.
The internal witness of the Spirit is certainly one aspect of assurance of salvation. Romans 8:16 NKJV [16] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, I John 5:10 NKJV [10] He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. And love for the brethren is also an assurance I John 3:14 NKJV [14] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
Pretty sure the Moravian Brethren were Moravian and not German. Moravia is part of the Czech lands, as such they were/are Slavic rather than German. As to theology, they're also called Hussites and had been influenced by the Pietist movement from German Lutherans; so to the British they could be seen as German Pietists.
@@j.g.4942 if I remember correctly, the Moravians John Wesley learned from were Germans, but like you said, they were originally from a different country.
How do you understand the terrified consciences discussrd in Apology of the Augsburg Confession under the section Repentence? Not a one time experience, but Melancthon appears to describe experience and emotions both in the Law and in assurance, does he not?
As one partial to all the groups named, I recognize that Lutheranism points toward the sacraments, etc, for assurance. It's good to clarify that. I don't discount the real theological rigor and work of, say, the 18th Century Evangelicals, nor its effects, nor its necessity. However, it is proper to understand theologians in their own terms, maybe even more especially because all the groups named would count themselves as highly influenced by Luther.
I remember in university fellowship people making me doubt my salvation cause I didn't have the "conversion" moment. I was raised christian I didn't have specific date. It makes me mad how they made me doubt
Check out a book called “Has American Christianity failed? It’s a great book to read about topics like this and great for all people considering Lutheranism, the author is Bryan Wolfmueller who also has a great YT channel.
@ministeriosemmanuel638 yea, I follow him. Thanks, I'll check it out. I'm actually in Ethiopia. It's an international crisis, really. All the protestant denominations are so mixed that there's no clear doctrinal teachings on many things. It's frustrating
I don't know if it will work in your context, when I engage with people making that argument, I say something like, "I've been baptized. I didn't choose God; God chose me and I accept that." Where it goes from there depends greatly on the person I'm talking to and the response that gets.
@@jalannegirma8066 I’ll be praying for Ethiopia! One of the first countries to accept Christ as King and Lord! 🇪🇹✝️ There are also a lot of Lutherans there as I have heard. God bless you!
@ministeriosemmanuel638 yea, my great grand parents are actually one of the first people to be Lutherans. Although I didn't really grow up in the church, I was baptized there. And I go there when i can. I love the lutheran church, but I'm also considering orthodoxy the more I know about it the more I love it. But all the churches need God's intervention. There's not a lot of doctrine clarity and false teachings creep in easily .
The way I understand it, if you’re born into a Christian family, you probably don’t remember a time you didn’t believe hopefully, but if you came to faith later, then you might have a conversion experience. I’m a former Baptist and now Lutheran. I did ask Jesus into my heart at age 5 but have no memory of it, only my baptism, so I think I always believed.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 I can't find your reply to me so I think the original poster must have deleted his reply which has resulted in all the replies below his to be deleted as well, so I’ll reply to you here: No, I don't believe that only those who believe in double predestination will be saved. My position is that the Holy Spirit teaches only one set of true doctrines which include double predestination, the real presence in the Lord's Supper, baptismal regeneration and all the other doctrines taught in the Bible. Of course if anyone disagrees with fundamental doctrines like the Trinity and resurrection then they won't be saved. However it's possible to disagree with secondary doctrines such as double predestination, the real presence, and baptismal regeneration and still be saved, but only if one hasn't sufficient knowledge and understanding to comprehend that Scripture teaches double predestination, the real presence and baptismal regeneration. If one has been instructed in them so that one understands them but rejects them then this shows that one hasn't got the Holy Spirit and will be damned if one persists in rejecting them. What all this means is that there will be those who are saved from Lutheran, Reformed and Baptist churches but they won't be from the clergy and educated laity because they have sufficient knowledge that if they had the Holy Spirit they wouldn't reject double predestination, the real presence and baptismal regeneration. Only those who are lacking in understanding with regards to these doctrines will have the Holy Spirit and be saved. Who will be saved is therefore known only to God as only He knows who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't. With respect to the necessity of having a one time personal conversion experience see my replies below HenryLeslieGraham’s post below this video where he writes that he’s never been comfortable with it.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 I don't accept that it's possible to come to faith in Christ and for this not to be a personal event where one experiences being brought into the light out of the darkness of unbelief. One is filled with the joy of knowing that Christ is one’s Saviour. If people don't at some point in their lives experience this then they've not actually been converted and aren't true Christians. (Holland is right in saying that this was Luther's position). If this happens in infancy one of course may have no memory of it happening but it still must have happened. So-called confessional Lutherans who deny that such an experience is necessary and have never experienced this themselves haven't actually been converted and have no true understanding of spiritual matters. They believe the unscriptural teaching of single predestination and resistible conversion both of which Luther denied in The Bondage of the Will so they're not actually Lutherans. They follow the teaching of Martin Chemnitz who was the principal author of the Formula of Concord. Chemnitz rejected Luther’s teaching that God has willed and predestined everything that happens including that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned and that no one has any free will to either accept or reject belief in Christ as God irresistibly regenerates those who are elected to be saved and leaves the remainder in their sins so that they're damned. Confessional Lutherans (i.e. those who follow Chemnitz) condemn this as Calvinism without realising that Luther was a Calvinist on predestination. They can't see that Paul teaches double predestination in Romans 9 because they've no spiritual eyes to see as they've never been converted.
I don't accept that it's possible to come to faith in Christ and for this not to be a personal event where one experiences being brought into the light out of the darkness of unbelief. One is filled with the joy of knowing that Christ is one’s Saviour. If people don't at some point in their lives experience this then they've not actually been converted and aren't true Christians. (Holland is right in saying that this was Luther's position). If this happens in infancy one of course may have no memory of it happening but it still must have happened. So-called confessional Lutherans who deny that such an experience is necessary and have never experienced this themselves haven't actually been converted and have no true understanding of spiritual matters. They believe the unscriptural teaching of single predestination and resistible conversion both of which Luther denied in The Bondage of the Will so they're not actually Lutherans. They follow the teaching of Martin Chemnitz who was the principal author of the Formula of Concord. Chemnitz rejected Luther’s teaching that God has willed and predestined everything that happens including that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned and that no one has any free will to either accept or reject belief in Christ as God irresistibly regenerates those who are elected to be saved and leaves the remainder in their sins so that they're damned. Confessional Lutherans (i.e. those who follow Chemnitz) condemn this as Calvinism without realising that Luther was a Calvinist on predestination. They can't see that Paul teaches double predestination in Romans 9 because they've no spiritual eyes to see as they've never been converted.
@@Edward-ng8oo the Bible doesn’t teach that you have to believe in predestination to be saved. You just have to believe in Jesus dying for your sins and rising from the dead to be saved. I do believe that, so I know I am saved. But because I was raised in. Christian home and was reborn at a very early age, I don’t have any memories of my time as unsaved.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the New Testament to write what they did, and one of the things they wrote was that those who are saved are predestined by God to be saved. Paul for instance teaches this explicitly in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. So it's not possible to deny this and still retain the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can't deny what He teaches, and since He leads Christians to believe the truth (John 16:13) if one has the Holy Spirit (which it's necessary to have if one is to be saved) one will believe that God has predestined those who are saved to be saved when this is taught.
Some believers/followers will have a defining moment when they experienced an event, that could be emotional i.e. an immediate answer to prayer, that brought them to belief in God. However ALL believers will come to the understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God which is the key to one being born again, 1 John 5:1 and Matthew 16: 16-17. The knowledge/belief that Jesus is the Son of God comes directly from God. Not everyone believes this incredible truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. When you know in your soul that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God you are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will desire to live for Christ, and still have struggles because our fight against the world, the flesh and the devil, but we are victorious in Christ Jesus.
Holland has to be careful. He's said to be a good Classical Historian and that's where his training is. He's really not a Church Historian and it shows.
Yeah, when I listened to the Luther series, I found he had an interesting trend to be a express admiration for Luther even while portraying him in a way that was almost opposite his views.
Seems to me that the biblical requirement for repentance in order to be saved clearly indicates a "conversion" of some type. That does not require some dramatic or highly emotional experience and can take many forms, but it could certainly be described as a conversion despite anything Luther or any other person might say.
I'm a pietist myself and I believe that personal conversion experience is important. However, I agree with you, it's not absolutely necessary. Luther himself had that "born anew" experience, but didn't seem to make that a requirement for others to have salvation. If someone accepts that Jesus made that ultimate payment for their sins, then there is solid scriptural evidence for someone being saved (1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Cor 5:11-21). Christ died for everyone, not just for the elect or for those who made that personal conversion experience. It seems to be a pattern among men to keep adding laws and making them more complex than they need to be. Just like Eve telling the serpent that you may not only eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but also not even touch it. God never said 'you can't touch it", He just said don't eat from it. God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He doesn't have to rely on us for a personal born-again experience, just like some magical incantation.
Daily forgiveness of sins through the Word and the sacraments, well.. I thought that this is also the reformed view (but baptismal regeneration not so much). At least here in the Netherlands. And some of our reformed denominations do have a pietistic bent over here.. And regarding a 'conversion experience': the Scottish puritan William Guthrie summarises it with 2 Corinthians, 11th verse: For behold this selfsame thing, that you sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things you have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
I think something should be experienced at the point where a person becomes conscious of being born again. From death to life, darkness to light, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this would all be very noticable evidence of regeneration. The experience itself would be subjective, and the regeneration would have been taking place prior to being fully conscious of grace, but this would all reach a point of assurance.
Check out a book called “Has American Christianity failed? It’s a great book to read about topics like this and great for all people considering Lutheranism, the author is Bryan Wolfmueller who also has a great YT channel.
@@ministeriosemmanuel638 I have listened to a fair amount on his channel. It was Bryan who helped my understanding in regards to law/gospel distinction.
@@ministeriosemmanuel638 Iain H Murry is another good teacher. He puts the one time decsision revivalists such as Billy Graham and Charles Finney, under a big scriptural spotlight.
I believe in Baptismal Regeneration. I became a Christian when I was Baptized as a baby. I can not remember a time before I KNEW that Jesus is my Savior and I belong to God.
Do you have any opinion on Tom Holland's book Dominion? I read it a while back and liked it, but I'm not sure how good it is from an academic perspective.
-Did Martin Luther believe that everyone must have a one-time personal conversion experience? Frank White: Everyone must have Luther's "tower experience", i.e. the assurance born of God's justification of salvation by faith alone by grace alone without the works of the law and sectarians.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Seems like a very personal one on one experience to me. If Luther didn't preach/believe this, then Luther was wrong!
The following entry in Luther's Table Talk is relevant: “Some new divines allege, that the Holy Ghost works not in those that resist him, but only in such as are willing and give consent thereto, whence it would appear that free-will is also a cause and helper of faith, and that consequently faith alone justifies not, and that the Holy Ghost does not alone work through the Word, but that our will does something therein. But I say it is not so; the will of mankind works nothing at all in his conversion and justification; Non est efficiens causa justificationis sed marerialis tantum. It is the matter on which the Holy Ghost works (as a potter makes a pot out of clay), equally in those that resist and are averse, as in St Paul. But after the Holy Ghost has wrought in the wills of such resistants, then he also manages that the will be consenting thereunto. They say and allege further, That the example of St Paul’s conversion is a particular and special work of God, and therefore cannot be brought in for a general rule. I answer: even like as St Paul was converted, just so are all others converted; for we all resist God, but the Holy Ghost draws the will of mankind, when he pleases, through preaching. Even as no man may lawfully have children, except in a state of matrimony, though many married people have no children, so the Holy Ghost works not always through the Word but when it pleases him, so that free-will does nothing inwardly in our conversion and justification before God, neither does it work with our strength-no, not in the least, unless we be prepared and made fit by the Holy Ghost. The sentences in Holy Scripture touching predestination, as, “No man can come to me except the Father draweth him,” seem to terrify and affright us; yet they but show that we can do nothing of our own strength and will that is good before God, and put the godly also in mind to pray. When people do this, they may conclude they are predestinated.” (Of Free Will, CCLXIII, Hazlitt) He says that as Paul was converted so is everyone, and that the Holy Spirit doesn't always work through the Word but only when it pleases Him, and that He works in the hearts of those who resist him. This incidentally contradicts the Formula of Concord which says that people are damned through resisting the Holy Spirit, from which it follows that the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the hearts of those who resist Him. Luther however says that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of those who resist so that they're converted which means the Holy Spirit operates irresistibly in the hearts of those who are predestined to be saved. When one is converted to Christ it's impossible that one doesn't experience the transition from being a lost sinner to now being a saved person. One's whole way of thinking is changed so that one goes from being “of” the sinful world into being only “in” the world but not if it. This transition experience must occur at some point even if one can't remember it happening as would be the case with infants who are converted through baptism.
Look to the work of Christ on the cross, baptism, the Eucharist. This is how God brings you into his covenant of forgiveness. Salvation comes from outside of us “extra nos”. Start the video around the 5:00 mark.
Millions of pentecostals, charismatics, pietists, ect claim all sorts of experiences and "signs and wonders" but are completely incapable of explaining the gospel that saves. What a terrible and false testimony.
To be fair most actual pietist Lutheran denominations are more than capable of defining this. Here he is discussing more of a tendency which arose as a result of pietism. Actual pietists traditionally are Orthodox confessional Lutherans and such groups still exist.
Stop preaching conversion and you will fill the churches with hypocrites. You will also empty the churches. Fact: Jesus segregated His listeners telling them they had to be converted. The need for conversion results from our being conceived in sin which is the same as sayings in is conceived in us. And if so we must at some point break wit it. That is what Romans 6 is about; we do not disengage from sin gradually we turn from it.
So you don't have to "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord"? You have to want Jesus as Lord of your life or you're still in the world.
@@toddvoss52 Some people believe that you don't even have to confess Jesus and turn from your old ways; to these people, you're still a believer. Remember the prison guards asked Paul: "What must I do to be saved".
@ShonkySquad when the apostles write to believers about their salvation, having been born again is always an event that happened in the past for them. Justified (past tense) is also used. John says we know that we have passed (past tense) from death unto life)
@@alanwuest6220 'born again' is baptismal language, as is passing from death to life (buried with Him in Baptism, and raised with Him to New Life); also one is Justified every time the Absolution is received as that is simplistically returning to God's grace in Baptism. Yet Baptism isn't necessarily always a 'personal conversion' in the sense people speak about that today.
@@j.g.4942 justification is a past tense event for the Christian which jas ongoing realities to it. We are not justufied again every time we repent. We are already justified because we have faith in Christ. This is why when we repent as believers, the scripture says, "God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " The faithful and just part is because we are already under the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant and have been (past tense) justiified already, so because of that God is faithful and just in forgiving us of the sins in our Christian walk. We are already ultimately forgiven and covered. There are senses and tenses (past, present, and future) to salvation in the NT, but justification and regeneration are past tense for the Christian. And we rest in that promise. Romans 5:1 NKJV [1] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, I Corinthians 6:11 NKJV [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
@@ShonkySquad if you don't believe in a one time conversion, then it proves that you aren't saved. See 1 Pet 1 : 22--23. Heb 10: 14. The rebirth, (Conversion) is a one time event.
"These things we have stated shortly in the desire to show how Jesus became sin for us, that we might in Him become the Righteousness of God." - St. Severus Of Antioch
@@fantasia55 "And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, and he was numbered with the transgressors." - Mark 15:28 "For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, and He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end." - Luke 22:37 I think Luther was not intending to convey anything derisive of the Lord. I think he was communicating how outwardly Christ was perceived and how His repute was insulted and slandered.
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The whole video (a full 1 hour and 40 minutes) will be up on Saturday.
Looking forward to this one
I'm sure my bus passengers will be delighted 😉
But I want it now :(
I was just about to comment that I'd like to see more said about this series on Luther!
Cooper always has to drop teasers
As one fairly new to Lutheranism, this is helpful. My Baptist/non-denominational background may replace the word “experience” with “decision” (sing with me: “I have decided to follow Jesus…”). I have been trying to sort out my journey from that paradigm, and this short video is helpful.
Hahaha this is great..... I thought so called Lutherans where purely passive, like Luther experience testified.... man does not choose
"The rest is history" guys were reading modern low church evangelicals into Luther's theology. I'm not even Lutheran and I could easily see that they didn't read any of Luther's works, catechism or confessions
Holland is usually very good on his scholarship, so seeing this bad a representation of Luther is shocking.
I wish other Christians understood monergism. Sometimes it seems as difficult to get them to understand it as it would be to tell Ayn Rand to believe. American Christianity is struggling with the Gospel because of centuries of false teachings, some intentional (Church infiltration) and some out of unfortunate ignorance. Praise the Lord for His patience with us. Thank you for all your efforts to spread the Truth of the Gospel, Dr Cooper!
I have never been comfortable with the phrase 'One-Time Personal Conversion Experience', often worded as the following question 'when did you come to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour'. Such a notion is not biblical, and not historical. The insistence on having a One-Time Conversion Experience is injurious to means of grace that God has established.
Exactly. If there is any point of the Christian life that Scripture identifies as the definitive moment of 'getting saved,' it is Baptism, not initial conversion.
@@BenjaminAnderson21 exactly
@@BenjaminAnderson21 exactly
Curious should those of us who have had a “conversion experience” ignore it? I’ve come to realize it’s not normative but I do believe that are real for some . I was baptized as a baby but was “converted” at 42 .
@henrylesliegraham
Are you born again? If so, is that a process or an event?
As believers, we may or may not know the moment of our conversion, but we can be sure that we were/are converted. We may not have a dramtic conversion story like the Apostle Paul, but that doesn't mean that conversion isn't an event that happens, a moment when God opens our hearts to recieve the Gospel.
Is the assurance of your salvation solely through external means, or is it also through the internal witness of the Holy Spirit?
I remember being in high school and would from time to time attend some more evangelical based bible studies. Being a lifelong Lutheran I’ve always remembered being Christian, and felt inadequate to the point to (and to my shame) where I would dramatize normal teenage experiences and make them sound like born again experiences just to fit in.
This has been highly valuable! Though a beautiful experience, salvation is ‘more than a feeling’. As I look back on my life, I’ve come to realize that the Wonderful Councelor has been with me a very long time, guiding me on right paths, even though I was ignorant of His presence.
I’m not even a Luther bro, and even I was banging my fist on the table listening to this
No. Some people have "Saul on the road to Damascus" experience. Most of us do not.
You are right. Just as John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. It can happen but is not the norm it would seem. Jesus says come and follow me and he will lead you to the Kingdom. We must be born again. We feel the affect of the Holy Spirit but we don't know how He comes or goes. Hebrews quotes Jeremiah in saying that He will write his laws on our hearts in the new covenant. Sorry for the long answer. I wanted to write this for myself too. I am brought up Lutheran and have seen the teachings of the Church fail dramatically in growing the church spiritually and physically. Yet I am increasingly convinced that the teachings themselves are not wrong. Just not applied very well.
This thing of having to watch smart and respected people put forth uneducated assertions (or sometimes just blatant lies) about Lutheranism or any subject for that matter is almost the peak of frustration.
It’s like laying and smoothing cement and then watching the neighbor’s dog walk across it before it dries… but the neighbor is a lawyer so he wipes his hands clean and finds a way to claim you are liable for both the cement and the dog’s cleaning bill. All the work of having to undo the knots they handed you is on you. Uggh
Ooh, I never knew I wanted this but I am so excited for the whole thing.
If I’m not mistaken, John Wesley actually does say things like that in his earlier writings (the feeling of assurance- “the Spirit bearing witness in our own spirit” is a necessary part of salvation that would be experienced in a single moment) when he was more influenced by the Moravians (who were, I believe, German pietists). I think Wesley moderated this view as he got older, certainly later Methodists did.
Having recently read John Wesley’s Journal, I would definitely say that while his views on this changed over time, he believed that in many cases salvation could be found in a single experience. While visiting the Moravians based in Aldergate in 1738, he listened to someone read Luther’s Preface to the book of Romans, and while listening realized that faith could be “given in a moment of time.” Following this experience he became a new man, full of peace and joy. Yet he also believed that salvation was a lifelong pursuit. He recounts how men turn from their faithful lives, being devoted to God, into drunkenness and debauchery, yet in the end return to Christ, overjoyed by the fact that their sins have been forgiven.
Toward the end of his life I think he realized that he had more questions than answers. From his journal entries he seemed to be less judgmental toward people battling sin. He considered Luther, first instance, a man who was wrong in many respects but who was used by God for great good.
@@ifronnin 100% agree.
The internal witness of the Spirit is certainly one aspect of assurance of salvation.
Romans 8:16 NKJV
[16] The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
I John 5:10 NKJV
[10] He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
And love for the brethren is also an assurance
I John 3:14 NKJV
[14] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
Pretty sure the Moravian Brethren were Moravian and not German.
Moravia is part of the Czech lands, as such they were/are Slavic rather than German. As to theology, they're also called Hussites and had been influenced by the Pietist movement from German Lutherans; so to the British they could be seen as German Pietists.
@@j.g.4942 if I remember correctly, the Moravians John Wesley learned from were Germans, but like you said, they were originally from a different country.
How do you understand the terrified consciences discussrd in Apology of the Augsburg Confession under the section Repentence? Not a one time experience, but Melancthon appears to describe experience and emotions both in the Law and in assurance, does he not?
As one partial to all the groups named, I recognize that Lutheranism points toward the sacraments, etc, for assurance. It's good to clarify that. I don't discount the real theological rigor and work of, say, the 18th Century Evangelicals, nor its effects, nor its necessity. However, it is proper to understand theologians in their own terms, maybe even more especially because all the groups named would count themselves as highly influenced by Luther.
I remember in university fellowship people making me doubt my salvation cause I didn't have the "conversion" moment. I was raised christian I didn't have specific date. It makes me mad how they made me doubt
Check out a book called “Has American Christianity failed? It’s a great book to read about topics like this and great for all people considering Lutheranism, the author is Bryan Wolfmueller who also has a great YT channel.
@ministeriosemmanuel638 yea, I follow him. Thanks, I'll check it out. I'm actually in Ethiopia. It's an international crisis, really. All the protestant denominations are so mixed that there's no clear doctrinal teachings on many things. It's frustrating
I don't know if it will work in your context, when I engage with people making that argument, I say something like, "I've been baptized. I didn't choose God; God chose me and I accept that." Where it goes from there depends greatly on the person I'm talking to and the response that gets.
@@jalannegirma8066 I’ll be praying for Ethiopia! One of the first countries to accept Christ as King and Lord! 🇪🇹✝️
There are also a lot of Lutherans there as I have heard.
God bless you!
@ministeriosemmanuel638 yea, my great grand parents are actually one of the first people to be Lutherans. Although I didn't really grow up in the church, I was baptized there. And I go there when i can. I love the lutheran church, but I'm also considering orthodoxy the more I know about it the more I love it. But all the churches need God's intervention. There's not a lot of doctrine clarity and false teachings creep in easily .
The way I understand it, if you’re born into a Christian family, you probably don’t remember a time you didn’t believe hopefully, but if you came to faith later, then you might have a conversion experience. I’m a former Baptist and now Lutheran. I did ask Jesus into my heart at age 5 but have no memory of it, only my baptism, so I think I always believed.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 I can't find your reply to me so I think the original poster must have deleted his reply which has resulted in all the replies below his to be deleted as well, so I’ll reply to you here:
No, I don't believe that only those who believe in double predestination will be saved. My position is that the Holy Spirit teaches only one set of true doctrines which include double predestination, the real presence in the Lord's Supper, baptismal regeneration and all the other doctrines taught in the Bible. Of course if anyone disagrees with fundamental doctrines like the Trinity and resurrection then they won't be saved. However it's possible to disagree with secondary doctrines such as double predestination, the real presence, and baptismal regeneration and still be saved, but only if one hasn't sufficient knowledge and understanding to comprehend that Scripture teaches double predestination, the real presence and baptismal regeneration. If one has been instructed in them so that one understands them but rejects them then this shows that one hasn't got the Holy Spirit and will be damned if one persists in rejecting them.
What all this means is that there will be those who are saved from Lutheran, Reformed and Baptist churches but they won't be from the clergy and educated laity because they have sufficient knowledge that if they had the Holy Spirit they wouldn't reject double predestination, the real presence and baptismal regeneration. Only those who are lacking in understanding with regards to these doctrines will have the Holy Spirit and be saved. Who will be saved is therefore known only to God as only He knows who has the Holy Spirit and who doesn't.
With respect to the necessity of having a one time personal conversion experience see my replies below HenryLeslieGraham’s post below this video where he writes that he’s never been comfortable with it.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 I don't accept that it's possible to come to faith in Christ and for this not to be a personal event where one experiences being brought into the light out of the darkness of unbelief. One is filled with the joy of knowing that Christ is one’s Saviour. If people don't at some point in their lives experience this then they've not actually been converted and aren't true Christians. (Holland is right in saying that this was Luther's position). If this happens in infancy one of course may have no memory of it happening but it still must have happened.
So-called confessional Lutherans who deny that such an experience is necessary and have never experienced this themselves haven't actually been converted and have no true understanding of spiritual matters. They believe the unscriptural teaching of single predestination and resistible conversion both of which Luther denied in The Bondage of the Will so they're not actually Lutherans. They follow the teaching of Martin Chemnitz who was the principal author of the Formula of Concord. Chemnitz rejected Luther’s teaching that God has willed and predestined everything that happens including that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned and that no one has any free will to either accept or reject belief in Christ as God irresistibly regenerates those who are elected to be saved and leaves the remainder in their sins so that they're damned. Confessional Lutherans (i.e. those who follow Chemnitz) condemn this as Calvinism without realising that Luther was a Calvinist on predestination. They can't see that Paul teaches double predestination in Romans 9 because they've no spiritual eyes to see as they've never been converted.
I don't accept that it's possible to come to faith in Christ and for this not to be a personal event where one experiences being brought into the light out of the darkness of unbelief. One is filled with the joy of knowing that Christ is one’s Saviour. If people don't at some point in their lives experience this then they've not actually been converted and aren't true Christians. (Holland is right in saying that this was Luther's position). If this happens in infancy one of course may have no memory of it happening but it still must have happened.
So-called confessional Lutherans who deny that such an experience is necessary and have never experienced this themselves haven't actually been converted and have no true understanding of spiritual matters. They believe the unscriptural teaching of single predestination and resistible conversion both of which Luther denied in The Bondage of the Will so they're not actually Lutherans. They follow the teaching of Martin Chemnitz who was the principal author of the Formula of Concord. Chemnitz rejected Luther’s teaching that God has willed and predestined everything that happens including that everyone is predestined to be either saved or damned and that no one has any free will to either accept or reject belief in Christ as God irresistibly regenerates those who are elected to be saved and leaves the remainder in their sins so that they're damned. Confessional Lutherans (i.e. those who follow Chemnitz) condemn this as Calvinism without realising that Luther was a Calvinist on predestination. They can't see that Paul teaches double predestination in Romans 9 because they've no spiritual eyes to see as they've never been converted.
@@Edward-ng8oo the Bible doesn’t teach that you have to believe in predestination to be saved. You just have to believe in Jesus dying for your sins and rising from the dead to be saved. I do believe that, so I know I am saved. But because I was raised in. Christian home and was reborn at a very early age, I don’t have any memories of my time as unsaved.
@@tammywilliams-ankcorn9533 The Holy Spirit inspired the authors of the New Testament to write what they did, and one of the things they wrote was that those who are saved are predestined by God to be saved. Paul for instance teaches this explicitly in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1. So it's not possible to deny this and still retain the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit can't deny what He teaches, and since He leads Christians to believe the truth (John 16:13) if one has the Holy Spirit (which it's necessary to have if one is to be saved) one will believe that God has predestined those who are saved to be saved when this is taught.
Some believers/followers will have a defining moment when they experienced an event, that could be emotional i.e. an immediate answer to prayer, that brought them to belief in God. However ALL believers will come to the understanding that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God which is the key to one being born again, 1 John 5:1 and Matthew 16: 16-17. The knowledge/belief that Jesus is the Son of God comes directly from God. Not everyone believes this incredible truth that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3 one must be born again to see the kingdom of God. When you know in your soul that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God you are sealed by the Holy Spirit and will desire to live for Christ, and still have struggles because our fight against the world, the flesh and the devil, but we are victorious in Christ Jesus.
Holland has to be careful. He's said to be a good Classical Historian and that's where his training is. He's really not a Church Historian and it shows.
Yeah, when I listened to the Luther series, I found he had an interesting trend to be a express admiration for Luther even while portraying him in a way that was almost opposite his views.
Yeah... he didn't fit my bias either guys, he's a heretic
Seems to me that the biblical requirement for repentance in order to be saved clearly indicates a "conversion" of some type. That does not require some dramatic or highly emotional experience and can take many forms, but it could certainly be described as a conversion despite anything Luther or any other person might say.
I'm a pietist myself and I believe that personal conversion experience is important. However, I agree with you, it's not absolutely necessary. Luther himself had that "born anew" experience, but didn't seem to make that a requirement for others to have salvation. If someone accepts that Jesus made that ultimate payment for their sins, then there is solid scriptural evidence for someone being saved (1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Cor 5:11-21). Christ died for everyone, not just for the elect or for those who made that personal conversion experience. It seems to be a pattern among men to keep adding laws and making them more complex than they need to be. Just like Eve telling the serpent that you may not only eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but also not even touch it. God never said 'you can't touch it", He just said don't eat from it. God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He doesn't have to rely on us for a personal born-again experience, just like some magical incantation.
Daily forgiveness of sins through the Word and the sacraments, well.. I thought that this is also the reformed view (but baptismal regeneration not so much). At least here in the Netherlands. And some of our reformed denominations do have a pietistic bent over here..
And regarding a 'conversion experience': the Scottish puritan William Guthrie summarises it with 2 Corinthians, 11th verse: For behold this selfsame thing, that you sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things you have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
I read the title and knew right out the gate this would Tom Holland.
I think something should be experienced at the point where a person becomes conscious of being born again. From death to life, darkness to light, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, this would all be very noticable evidence of regeneration. The experience itself would be subjective, and the regeneration would have been taking place prior to being fully conscious of grace, but this would all reach a point of assurance.
Check out a book called “Has American Christianity failed? It’s a great book to read about topics like this and great for all people considering Lutheranism, the author is Bryan Wolfmueller who also has a great YT channel.
@@ministeriosemmanuel638 I have listened to a fair amount on his channel. It was Bryan who helped my understanding in regards to law/gospel distinction.
@@Alex-ph2pw Yep, Same! But his book is worth reading!
@@ministeriosemmanuel638 Iain H Murry is another good teacher. He puts the one time decsision revivalists such as Billy Graham and Charles Finney, under a big scriptural spotlight.
@@Alex-ph2pw See my reply to @FRodriguez_ below this video where he says that it's not necessary to have a one time personal conversion experience.
I’ve heard Tom Holland speak on this before and I hoped you’d have a response!
Thank you for this, is much of Tom Holland’s commentary on Luther this bad?
Oh it's bad.
I believe in Baptismal Regeneration. I became a Christian when I was Baptized as a baby. I can not remember a time before I KNEW that Jesus is my Savior and I belong to God.
Do you have any opinion on Tom Holland's book Dominion? I read it a while back and liked it, but I'm not sure how good it is from an academic perspective.
Well said.
Thoughts on the lutheran magazine Good News?
How do you *daily* receive the forgiveness of sins through the Word?
-Did Martin Luther believe that everyone must have a one-time personal conversion experience? Frank White: Everyone must have Luther's "tower experience", i.e. the assurance born of God's justification of salvation by faith alone by grace alone without the works of the law and sectarians.
This sums it up.
1 John 5:1 whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Seems like a very personal one on one experience to me.
If Luther didn't preach/believe this, then Luther was wrong!
The following entry in Luther's Table Talk is relevant:
“Some new divines allege, that the Holy Ghost works not in those that resist him, but only in such as are willing and give consent thereto, whence it would appear that free-will is also a cause and helper of faith, and that consequently faith alone justifies not, and that the Holy Ghost does not alone work through the Word, but that our will does something therein. But I say it is not so; the will of mankind works nothing at all in his conversion and justification; Non est efficiens causa justificationis sed marerialis tantum. It is the matter on which the Holy Ghost works (as a potter makes a pot out of clay), equally in those that resist and are averse, as in St Paul. But after the Holy Ghost has wrought in the wills of such resistants, then he also manages that the will be consenting thereunto. They say and allege further, That the example of St Paul’s conversion is a particular and special work of God, and therefore cannot be brought in for a general rule. I answer: even like as St Paul was converted, just so are all others converted; for we all resist God, but the Holy Ghost draws the will of mankind, when he pleases, through preaching. Even as no man may lawfully have children, except in a state of matrimony, though many married people have no children, so the Holy Ghost works not always through the Word but when it pleases him, so that free-will does nothing inwardly in our conversion and justification before God, neither does it work with our strength-no, not in the least, unless we be prepared and made fit by the Holy Ghost. The sentences in Holy Scripture touching predestination, as, “No man can come to me except the Father draweth him,” seem to terrify and affright us; yet they but show that we can do nothing of our own strength and will that is good before God, and put the godly also in mind to pray. When people do this, they may conclude they are predestinated.” (Of Free Will, CCLXIII, Hazlitt)
He says that as Paul was converted so is everyone, and that the Holy Spirit doesn't always work through the Word but only when it pleases Him, and that He works in the hearts of those who resist him. This incidentally contradicts the Formula of Concord which says that people are damned through resisting the Holy Spirit, from which it follows that the Holy Spirit doesn't work in the hearts of those who resist Him. Luther however says that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of those who resist so that they're converted which means the Holy Spirit operates irresistibly in the hearts of those who are predestined to be saved.
When one is converted to Christ it's impossible that one doesn't experience the transition from being a lost sinner to now being a saved person. One's whole way of thinking is changed so that one goes from being “of” the sinful world into being only “in” the world but not if it. This transition experience must occur at some point even if one can't remember it happening as would be the case with infants who are converted through baptism.
I don't think Tom Holland meant a one-time experience.
So how does one know he is born again?
Ask the church secretary for your Baptism certificate.
Look to the work of Christ on the cross, baptism, the Eucharist. This is how God brings you into his covenant of forgiveness. Salvation comes from outside of us “extra nos”. Start the video around the 5:00 mark.
Millions of pentecostals, charismatics, pietists, ect claim all sorts of experiences and "signs and wonders" but are completely incapable of explaining the gospel that saves. What a terrible and false testimony.
To be fair most actual pietist Lutheran denominations are more than capable of defining this. Here he is discussing more of a tendency which arose as a result of pietism. Actual pietists traditionally are Orthodox confessional Lutherans and such groups still exist.
Stop preaching conversion and you will fill the churches with hypocrites. You will also empty the churches.
Fact: Jesus segregated His listeners telling them they had to be converted. The need for conversion results from our being conceived in sin which is the same as sayings in is conceived in us. And if so we must at some point break wit it. That is what Romans 6 is about; we do not disengage from sin gradually we turn from it.
So you don't have to "confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord"? You have to want Jesus as Lord of your life or you're still in the world.
What about the mental ill ??
How does that contradict what Dr Cooper is saying ? I think you are misunderstanding
@@toddvoss52 Some people believe that you don't even have to confess Jesus and turn from your old ways; to these people, you're still a believer.
Remember the prison guards asked Paul: "What must I do to be saved".
@@BitesOfFaith was he mentally ill ?? Incapable of speech ??
@@BitesOfFaith Are Confessional Lutherans these "some people" you are referring to ? Have you studied what they believe?
Jordan B Cooper, a one time personal conversion to Jesus is Biblical.
Where in the Bible would one find that, then?
@ShonkySquad when the apostles write to believers about their salvation, having been born again is always an event that happened in the past for them. Justified (past tense) is also used. John says we know that we have passed (past tense) from death unto life)
@@alanwuest6220 'born again' is baptismal language, as is passing from death to life (buried with Him in Baptism, and raised with Him to New Life); also one is Justified every time the Absolution is received as that is simplistically returning to God's grace in Baptism.
Yet Baptism isn't necessarily always a 'personal conversion' in the sense people speak about that today.
@@j.g.4942 justification is a past tense event for the Christian which jas ongoing realities to it. We are not justufied again every time we repent. We are already justified because we have faith in Christ. This is why when we repent as believers, the scripture says, "God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. " The faithful and just part is because we are already under the blood of Jesus in the New Covenant and have been (past tense) justiified already, so because of that God is faithful and just in forgiving us of the sins in our Christian walk. We are already ultimately forgiven and covered.
There are senses and tenses (past, present, and future) to salvation in the NT, but justification and regeneration are past tense for the Christian. And we rest in that promise.
Romans 5:1 NKJV
[1] Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
I Corinthians 6:11 NKJV
[11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
@@ShonkySquad if you don't believe in a one time conversion, then it proves that you aren't saved.
See 1 Pet 1 : 22--23. Heb 10: 14. The rebirth, (Conversion) is a one time event.
Martin Luther believed Christ was a sinner.
Hello do you have the peculiar quote?
"These things we have stated shortly in the desire to show how Jesus became sin for us, that we might in Him become the Righteousness of God." - St. Severus Of Antioch
@@anthonyp6055 He accused Jesus of committing the A word with three women. You can do an internet search for the quote.
@@fantasia55 "And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, and he was numbered with the transgressors." - Mark 15:28
"For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in Me, and He was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning Me have an end." - Luke 22:37
I think Luther was not intending to convey anything derisive of the Lord. I think he was communicating how outwardly Christ was perceived and how His repute was insulted and slandered.
@anthonyp6055 Lutheranism is collapsing as people learn about him as a person.