Autistic here. The other big problem with the show is that it almost always shows Autistics dating and being matched with other Autistics! (At least the vast majority of cases). This is an issue because 1. It's not representative. Most of us end up dating non-autistics simply because that's the majority of the dating pool. 2. This representation can confine us into the box that Autistics SHOULD only be dating other Autistics and not someone neurotypical.
Late-diagnosed autistic woman here, doing a psych PhD about autistic relationships (consensual non-monogamy specifically). As a person who is married, has more than sufficient resources and all the lifestyle markers of success, crippling levels of empathy, a pretty good sense of humour and an okay sense of style, nobody would have guessed my neurotype based on the stereotypical idea of what an autistic person looks like (even though all those qualities are actually probably a result of my way of thinking). Before I was aware of my own neurodivergence, I thought Love on the Spectrum was so cute, giggling at their mannerisms, swooning at their earnestness, and thinking that their families were so wonderful for being patient. However I've now realised (mainly by listening to the very welcoming autistic community) that shows like this (including all the shows about doctors and math geniuses), really do entrench this idea that autism = childlike socially inept nerd. And sure, those can be facets of all of us (not just autistic people), but it's not all we are. It means that people who do fit the stereotype are underestimated, and don't get opportunities to live their most satisfying lives. It means that those who don't fit the stereotype don't get any support, and end up feeling like they've lost so much potential, struggling with chronic pain, trying to cope through eating disorders, addiction issues and much higher rates of hurting themselves, with fatal results. We're more likely to be abused because it's automatically assumed we don't need education about intimate relationships, or coerced because we've been told we have to play this game and trust others if we want to get along, and we're gaslit into thinking we're unreliable witnesses because of our neurotype. I was once a research assistant at a gender clinic, where they noticed that a very high number of clients (as well as those in the wider LGBTQIA+ community) were autistic or otherwise neurodivergent (ADHD, etc.), and it was genuinely suggested that perhaps their gender dysphoria was just a result of their autism, so their need for transition was taken less seriously. My deep interest in psychology and many hard life lessons helped me to learn how to fit in (as much as possible), but it is EXHAUSTING. As a researcher, aiming to be respected and valued by my peers and mentors, it can be scary wondering whether I should disclose my neurotype. Are they going to see it as an asset because I have some insight, or are they going to see me as a diversity hire who gets a pat on the head for being able to string words together? Are they going to roll their eyes if I gently suggest different terminology? Every interaction I have is layered with wondering how to tailor my self-expression to suit what this person's worldview is. And then I end up doing or saying something silly because I'm overwhelmed by juggling all of that, so then I kind of reinforce the issue. Anyway, what a fun vent (grad rant!). I love that you're talking about this, and opening up the conversation to your majestic audience. I also love how in all your conversations you're keen to get the words right - this is oft-cited and a helpful guide to terminology www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aut.2020.0014 And yes, many in the community speculate that Amelie is a neurodivergent queen :D
I don't have the spoons to type a super in depth comment but this is basically what I feel. It infantilizes us and tbh makes me uncomfortable to watch.
Someone with Autism here, I loved Love on the Spectrum. I didnt have a problem with them highlighting special interests and I didnt view it as something meant to shame people on the spectrum. I thought the show was wholesome and relatable and I loved seeing people on the spectrum getting support and shown acceptance and guidance.
@Mak, THANK YOU! Being a almost 36 year old “baby gay” who only recently come out to my dad identifying as lesbian… I genuinely feel you have ‘saved’ my relationship with my dad by hearing you (trying to) share and express your perfect example of holding intent and impact. “I recognise that the way he thinks, is because he cares about me. It’s not coming from a place of malice from his side. He’s not telling me this is wrong, don’t be gay. He’s saying that because he loves me and because he thinks he’s protecting me. It’s not right, but it’s his perspective of it” Yes, I even wrote it down in my journal to look back on and remind myself of how we can move forward. Again thank you… I really wish you would have been able to keep expressing yourself when you started off saying “The vulnerability on both sides is so uncomfortable”…. Especially because you amazing humans are the gay family some of us never had / don’t have. Ps. That last part isn’t a “backhand comment”. Yes, I’ve listened to every episode because I love and appreciate all 3 of you!
My friend recently lost her mom and this is beautifully written - "My mother was not a perfect parent or a perfect person, but she gave me many perfect moments and memories and her love.' Parents don't get a manual when raising children, and as I age, I can see my parents as a person. Makes me reflect on my own behaviour and how I treat my loved ones.
I know its a bit (and a funny bit!) and I trust that Ashley and Alayna know this when the cameras are off, but fellow listener, If you have a Mak in your life who still hasnt submitted her passport papers, rather than being like WTF WHY NOT, it maybe helpful to offer something like *I know it can be hard to get going on stuff like that sometimes, would you like me to sit with you while you fill it out, or go with you to the post office to send it off*. You dont need to hold their hand necessarily, but even being in the same room can be helpful. It will not only mean a better outcome emotionally for your Mak-proxy, but it will also mean the passport papers will get sent sooner. The inverse is also true, making your Mak-equivalent feel bad will make a) them feel bad, and b) the whole process will also take even longer.
that is such an amazing, smart approach. also great that you recognized that Ashley + Alayna most likely have said something similar off the pod. After reading this comment, definitely about to go text a friend something similar, thanks :)))
Ok but AS a make equivalent!! Couldn't agree more. I was so nervous just watching this episode just from the intro that 30 mins in I stopped to come down to the comments and see what she was told off about to soothe my weak little nerves. Big the more I put something off the more anxious I become about doing it and the harder it becomes to do, especially when it's not for lack of care but rather struggling with time management. Love this approach a lot
I'm Autistic. I just want to start off with language, first. It seems that most allistic (i.e. non-autistic) people tend to use the terms "has autism" or "is on the spectrum" when referring to autistic people. It's up to the person how they want to identify themselves, but most of us use identify-first language, i.e. "I'm autistic". So, you don't have to dance around the terms. (It's like when abled people say "differently abled" instead of "disabled". Just say the word - I'm disabled). I think there are a few different regional Love on the Spectrum shows perhaps. I saw the Australian one. What I didn't like, and what I experienced as being the most discussed and disliked in the autistic community, is how they (the show hosts/psychologists etc) were trying to "teach" or "train" the autistic people to act in a more allistic manner when going on dates. It was so uncomfortable to watch.
Hey also autistic here, I just wanted to double back on something you said, "autism is binary" recently I've been becoming more aware of this thing called subclinical levels of pathologies and conditions. This is basically the idea that pattern's like autism and adhd actually also exist at smaller levels on a population level. For example covid made everything worse but combined with the advertising shift to short form content population wide adhd increased artificially. Sub clinical levels of adhd can include a phenomenon know as environmental/periodic adhd which is especially seen in patients with clinical depression as it's often a periodic illness and alternatively in neurotypical people undergoing intense amounts of external or internal stress. Sub clinical levels also describe symptoms that are seen in gaps wider than six months. Policing who gets resources (this is not the same as prioritizing based on limited resources) is going to mean less resources for a wide range of experiences that we have limited diagnostic data for. Another point to mention is not all autistic people experience all the diagnostic criteria at the same time in their lives for example I was extremely hypersensitive as a kid but due to a late diagnosis of autism and also other disabilities by the time I was 16 my body was so broken I was struggling to feel anything. Whereas now I've been treated and my nerves are healing I find it difficult to go outside of my temperature controlled, noice canceled room because sounds etc are more intense now to the point of pain sometimes. With all this data it's unlikely that autism isn't a spectrum. References/further reading: Dr kanojia 2023 ~ sub clinical Levels of adhd (source aoe course/Dr k's guide) ~ periodic/situational adhd (Source Healthygamer TH-cam content + aoe Course/Dr k's guide)
Hey also autistic here, I just wanted to double back on something you said, "autism is binary" recently I've been becoming more aware of this thing called subclinical levels of pathologies and conditions. This is basically the idea that pattern's like autism and adhd actually also exist at smaller levels on a population level. For example covid made everything worse but combined with the advertising shift to short form content population wide adhd increased artificially. Sub clinical levels of adhd can include a phenomenon know as environmental/periodic adhd which is especially seen in patients with clinical depression as it's often a periodic illness and alternatively in neurotypical people undergoing intense amounts of external or internal stress. Sub clinical levels also describe symptoms that are seen in gaps wider than six months. Policing who gets resources (this is not the same as prioritizing based on limited resources) is going to mean less resources for a wide range of experiences that we have limited diagnostic data for. Another point to mention is not all autistic people experience all the diagnostic criteria at the same time in their lives for example I was extremely hypersensitive as a kid but due to a late diagnosis of autism and also other disabilities by the time I was 16 my body was so broken I was struggling to feel anything. Whereas now I've been treated and my nerves are healing I find it difficult to go outside of my temperature controlled, noice canceled room because sounds etc are more intense now to the point of pain sometimes. With all this data it's unlikely that autism isn't a spectrum. References/further reading: Dr kanojia 2023 ~ sub clinical Levels of adhd (source aoe course/Dr k's guide) ~ periodic/situational adhd (Source Healthygamer TH-cam content + aoe Course/Dr k's guide)
Yes!! People still seem to think that the spectrum goes from "not" to "a lot". I don't get it, it is not linear. It's like a color wheel type spectrum. I also kind of which we could just stop being debated. You are pregnant, or you aren't, you are autistic, or you aren't, it doesn't mean we are all the same, it means we share somethings in common.
My dad committed suicide 3 weeks ago. He was very distant and wierd acting the last year, and made many mistakes when it came to his family. It has been extremely difficult accepting that he is gone, but I feel like I lost him a long time ago. The last year he reallt pushed us away to shelter us from his problems. I was so incredibly mad at him for never having time for me, seeing me or even chatting on the phone. In retrospect I understand that he thought he did the right thing, protecting us from seeing his pain. Although I feel guilty for picking fights about it and nagging him about it alot, I recognize that my feelings were valid. Listening to your podcast really helped me today. I got out of bed and showered, which isn't much to brag about but thank you nontheless. I will certainly not make this my whole personality, but a part of my story. ❤ Sorry for oversharing🫶
I love this episode because even though everyone was in a silly goofy mood they answered a serious question about trauma and why therapy’s important. I really appreciate this so much as a person who struggles with trauma and accepting my parents perspective. Love Alyana, Ashley and Maks weekly wisdom ❤
Could this be the first time EVER, not including potential Patreon content, but also including Alayna's own channel, that we we have learned any personal detail about Alayna's mysterious girlfriend (i.e. her job)?❓
'It's so hard to make reasonable viral.' COMPLETELY AGREE Ashley, I mean it is why I stay away from News channels and sites and am much more guarded about what I consume on media (deleting my Facebook has been so ego-killing in a good way), everything trying to scare you in to clicking on it, sensationalising trivial things also, whereas I try to focus on what I can control.
In retrospect I thought it was the moving in thing, which I thought was big and cool, I think I agree on not expecting Alayna to be the one getting all “but did you fuck a lot?”
I have loving memories of my parents. Neither I nor my brother really had a rebellious stage because my parents were so open to hearing our opinions. We discussed everything including intimate stuff. We were so lucky and my brother has brought up his children the same. There is always laughter in their house. Ironically, you discussed life saving partners, I found out afterwards that my niece was performing CPR and using a defibrillator at her works because another member of staff collapsed, unfortunately unsuccessfully. My niece however was commended by the emergency services for not only following correct procedure but also organising the rest of the staff and removing the family of the victim and on lookers from the immediate scene despite being one of the youngest there.
43:16 When I was about 14, I went through existential and identity crises, and found myself being very disappointed in my parents because I finally started to see them as humans, rather than as god-like beings of perfection. For a period of time, I felt that I could do a better job at parenting myself than they could, yet eventually came to the conclusion that I would rather appreciate my childhood than focus my energy on worrying about the way I was being brought up. Tl; dr: realized my parents were imperfect before adulthood, came 2 conclusion that i should ignore it *also apologies if this isn't totally on topic or if you find it boring*
Lmao, the cheering for Ashley putting on her hat was so cute & funny. Resonated with the sentiment of how that'd reverse trends of body dysmorphia if everyone had their fashion choices applauded for.
I'm so glad you mentioned this. as Alayna mentioned people accusing people of being narcissistic and gaslighting when they are not just takes away from the people who actually go through this. I am one go those people my father abused me for 12 years of my life and still 6 years later continues to tell me he's done nothing wrong. luckily I managed to get him out of my life but I still receive messages from him to this day. I think when I tell people that my dads a narcissist its deemed as not that bad because of how many people are now labeled as narcissist through small disagreements. thank you so much for speaking even a little it on this topic cause people really need to hear it! love you guys ❤
I’m on the spectrum, as is my daughter and I hated the “introduction” part of love on the spectrum but loved the show over all. It felt like taking anything that is typically “autistic” about the person and making it sum up who they are. If I was describing myself it wouldn’t be “ I love to collect rocks/crystals and hate direct eye contact” because those things are trivial and don’t really explain who I am.
"she's about to put something delicious in my mouth" everybody instinctively making the same exact face, including me and all other viewers/listeners. lol
❤️ I am living for all the parent talk. I've gone through this myself. It's hard learning that someone is who they are and not who you wish they were. But if I were a parent, I can only imagine how difficult it would also be to handle and support a growing child during every step of life so I've become more open and accepted that my parents were bound to make mistakes or do the wrong thing every now and then. They love me, whether it be in a way I want or not, and sometimes I just have to get what I can from their kind of love, while for what is not there, I can seek it outwards from other loving people around me.
it's so interesting you said understanding intent helps with trauma because as a minor who lives with their parents, knowing my parents are flawed and aren't good for me while also being human and loving me makes my daily life so much harder, because i know if they have the understanding they would give me the life i should've gotten but they don't, and i'm dealing with the negative effects from just bad luck. the sheer randomness and the lack of targetting makes it hurt more for me, because it really is that i just got the short end of the stick. there's no horrible person, i just was unlucky and that's going to affect me for the rest of my life. i think the lack of connecting it into a greater good, even something like a higher power (i'm agnostic and my parents are religious), makes it really feel hopeless because i just got a bad dice roll and if it was better, this could all have been avoided.
Parents are humans, humans are always flawed. Your parents also have had parents that have traumatised them in a way. Knowing this does not make it right, and it does not make it easy. It is a difficult time in your life when you start to see this, but through acknowledgement and after a while acceptance, comes growth. The behaviour of your parents is not your responsibility, but understanding and learning to deal with your trauma is, and it is totally possible to get to a healthy and happy situation. Find a support system outside of your household, and once you’re no longer a minor search for ways to move out and create your own safe space. You will get through this!
if it's any consolation, i'm literally experiencing the exact same situation right now and i feel so seen by your comment. even down to the whole being agnostic with religious parents. you're not alone
@@ignorance_is_not_blisshey, me too! I’m agnostic and my parent is religious. Life is tough right now but I believe in us! I really hope things get better for us soon 💕
This episode was really good for me, I've grown up around friends and family in an anti-gay cult I was put in (me are gay) and you guys's words and perspectives helped reveal how to cope mentally better. I have no jokes to comment this time. Just thanks, you guys. 😊❤️
I'm 17 and I've just gotten to the point you guys were talking about, about accepting my circumstance with my relationship with my mother. The past few years I had just been blaming her and painted her as the villain. I think that was a way for me not to empathize with her so that I wouldn't feel bad, almost like I was protecting myself. But also because I have not had much validation for my feelings and experiences when growing up, so me excusing her behavior was also me agreeing with her and therefore not validating my my feelings and the impact that her actions has had on me. But recently, just like you guys said, i have started to learn to differentiate those two. I know she has love and care for me, but in many aspects of my life I will never get that support from her that I wish I had/wish to have . But, that does not excuse the impact nor my feelings towards some of her behaviors. ❤❤ Another great episode, much love ❤❤
Mac, as a dad, not your Dan and you can ignore this all you want but I am emotional and raw tonight, you are beautiful, smart, funny and loved. If the family you were born into is not meeting your needs. Accept the family you have found and know grief is a journey and not an event. I wish you love and joy and to accept what is and what could be.
I'm facing the exact same thing that mak is currently with my mom. Knowing that shes not homophobic because of hate but rather because of fear, and when I am able to come out to her (hopefully in the next couple years) I'll have to also juggle having a realtionship with someone who thinks I'm going to burn in hell because I like women and want to marry one. Its a situation that sucks and It gives me a little comfort knowing I'm not alone
Mak be like "this might be one of the times where I just listen" then proceeds to give a perfect answer to the question through a very mature analysis of her own situation
This Q and A hit so close to home for me. I had to cut my dad out of my life earlier this year and I’m just getting to that point of “I love you, but I can’t have a relationship with you. It’s not your fault, you do the best you can, but it’s not healthy.”
Friendly note on inclusive language about autism: In the autism community, the preferred terminology is "Autistic, or “Autistic person,” rather than “person with autism”, because they understand autism as an inherent part of an individual's identity (their neurology) rather than an "accessory" trait. Of course, if someone self identifies as having autism, please use their preferred terms. This distinction is referred to as identity first language vs person first language.
I find this ironic because when I was volunteering at a school there were posters that said the opposite, to emphasize the person not their label. Is this something that is debated within the community or is there a true consensus? Edited as I get further down in the comments: It does seem to be the consensus here. I wonder why they were training educators to do the opposite?
@@MichelleK.B. As far as I understand, many groups of parents* of autistic children advocate for person first language (person with autism) whereas the vast majority of autistics able to advocate for themselves actually prefer identity first (autistic person). *: or other groups of neurotypicals trying to advocate for autistics who aren't able to advocate for themselves
"it's going to be there forever but also you have to let go of it" why am i sobbing!!!!!!!!!!!! i think of this often, especially when it comes to both my depression and sa respectively. on one hand i think once you've been depressed, you always will be, but you get better at managing it. same with sa- that shitty person/people will always have done that thing to you, and it sucks, it's really genuinely awful, but i've come to the conclusion that i can't spend my life sad or angry or both because of a decision someone else made. it's sick and unfair that i have to do the work to get over it but they've possibly never given it a second thought, but i'm willing to do it because i love myself and i deserve better than a life of regret, shame and sadness.
I had a couple partial seizures at work today. Now they’re talking about moving me to a different area away from all my friends and the only people who know me. So many people are looking at me like I’m some kind of freak. Anyway, all that to say, it was REALLY nice to come home and giggle with ya’all after a REALLY miserable day!
It’s easy to sign up for a US passport, just do it! You fill out the form, either take a photo at home/get it taken at a place, then mail it off! I wish it weren’t expensive, because technically it’s our personal identification. I recently renewed mine last year, and it was really easy & arrived after a few months. Traveling is fun, and it’s also good to have a passport in case of an emergency.
i only have one thought surrounding love on the spectrum bc i haven't seen it (and yes, i have seen autistic people who loved it, those who hated it, and those who had complicated feelings about it--i, personally, get really uncomfortable really easily and don't like dating reality shows, so i've avoided it) also like my other comment--please do just take this as participating in the conversation as was requested! this is not a criticism or anything mean-spirited! merely sharing some thoughts and reflections that can be helpful in examining & reframing shit in general, not just re: this show. the thought is basically this: if a show like this makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, i kind of want to encourage you to examine that feeling. i read something recently about examining our feelings of disgust. they happen quickly and without tons of thought, and so they're usually worth examining. even with things like moldy food that "should" cause disgust--bc plenty of molds are good for us and are used beneficially in medicine or in food preservation and production. so that disgust response needs to be mediated by education. so what is described in the first bit of the video around this show making viewers feel all cute and warm and happy--that kind of needs to be examined a little bit. why, exactly, is it causing that emotion or reaction? what is it about these people in this situation specifically is causing that? would you have the same reaction to non-autistic people having these interactions? is this warm feeling about feeling as though you or the show have "done something good"? or does it come from a sort of compersion? is this feeling similar to when seeing children do something sweet and kind, while "inept" and learning? or is this feeling more similar to seeing adults be deliberately kind and funny, etc? and perhaps key: would you feel comfortable, like a whole, respected person, if someone had that kind of reaction to your own dating life? to reiterate, i haven't seen the show. i have NO OPINION about the show itself. so i am not, at any point here, referring to the show or what happens in it or anything. merely the feelings it inspires in the viewers that were discussed here. and much like "explore your gender!" conversations where "it's super cool if you still decide you're cis! at least you did the thinking!", this is a situation where if you examine those feelings and come out the other side still feeling that way, all good. if the answers to the example questions i left above are like "yeah, for sure, everything's chill. i enjoyed the show bc i liked the ppl on it and thought their relationships were really fun to watch, and i liked their stories and hearing about and seeing their life experiences which are different from mine. and also, bc sharing is learning, i also learned some stuff. seeing budding relationships warms my heart bc i like seeing human connection."-- then hell yeah! cool! i'm also not here to judge or say who should or shouldn't do something or how anyone should feel! i just think it's really worth examining how we feel abt stuff and *why*/where that comes from. i've been doing that a lot more recently with a lot of stuff in life, and just doing it casually and with a little bit of thought applied has made me kinder and more considering in my actions. (take w a grain of salt, but i do have ocd and sometimes get in morality spirals, and this has actually kind of helped a bit. it may make things worse for others, who knows, so y'know, ymmv) the reason i want this, specifically, examined is because that is the same kind of feeling that inspiration porn is meant to cause in viewers. or "happy" stories about disabled kids getting pity parties and undue amounts of attention that they might not really want, but that are meant to be positive, and it makes other people feel good in a condescending charity case sort of way. it can sometimes be difficult to tell representations/treatments apart. are these disabled people being treated with full consideration and accommodations for their different lived experiences and needs? or are they being treated as "exceptional" and "other" in a way that makes their entire existence About That? i think that's why discussion around this show has been very complicated. and i want to encourage us to not just accept the side we instinctively agree with. i think there is not Definitive Statement to be made abt the show, based on the discussions around it. but i also think those discussions, nuance, and complicated feelings should be the takeaway, and not necessarily "welp, then this show was 100% fine and perfect, and i can enjoy it without thinking abt it any further" OR "this show was unequivocally bad and nothing like this should ever be done again" again, reiterating: i am making no claims about the show. AND ALSO! plenty of perfectly innocent and not-shitty things ALSO inspire warm fuzzy feelings! so i'm not saying anything that makes you feel good is immediately suspect. lol i'm saying THIS thing MIGHT be suspect, because of the cultural context around how disability is featured, situated, thought of, treated, represented, etc. //sigh will i ever stop being so fucking longwinded? who can say? (me, i can, and the answer is, unfortunately, no. apologies.)
I really liked watching love on the spectrum, but after reading some of the discourse, the biggest problem for me is that a lot of the advice/coaching comes down to masking your autism as much as possible in order to be more deserving of love... There is no attention toward looking for a partner willing to accomodate your needs like you try to accomodate theirs, nor the fact that communication styles tend to differ a lot between autistics and allistics, but that communication between two autistics is much less likely to lead to misunderstanding especially if they aren't attempting to mask. Also, for those of us with high masking ability (sometimes still called "high functioning") it would have been nice to have some more representation on that end of the spectrum as well. Perhaps also paying attention to the fact that we *can* do all of these things to seem "normal", but it eats up a lot of energy, so it's good to look for a partner who you can safely unmask around.
The whole intent vs impact thing made me think about the rather tumultuous relationship I had with my therapist. Had a good cry think about it. Every tear heals, thanks y'all :)
Becoming a parent really helped me understand that my parents did the best they could in raising me, considering the upbringing they had and the information they had at the time (the 80’s). That doesn’t mean that I wasn’t harmed by things they did or said (and I’m still working through that in my 40’s), but I definitely have more empathy for them now. As parents, the majority of us do the best we can and hope to fuck our kids up as little as possible.
Wow. GREAT question, and even greater insights! This one really resonated with me. Ashley and Alayna have not only done the work but I mean come on, they’re geniuses and gurus when it comes to mental health/therapy and IM SO HERE FOR IT. So inspiring (not even joking) ❤
Man, I love y’all 🤟🏼 Thanks for the trauma talk, I never heard anyone else mention what I’ve been going through, and what I will continue to go through. This episode meant a lot to me. Don’t forget to hydrate! 🧃
First Dates is a really popular show (uk & ireland versions are the best) that has a very similar style and uses similar music. People of all ages and walks of life are matched up and go on blind dates in the Blind Dates restaurant. It really celebrates the weird in us all and matches people up in such a gorgeous way. Obviously there are disasters too but it's Not overly sexualised or exploitative in any way. It's light and fluffy and a very similar tone to Love on the Spectrum. Highly recommend, it's been my comfort show for years. Little baby Ashley will love it ❤
Per narcissism - I highly recommend a book I've been reading called "Rethinking Narcissism," which proposes a 1-10 spectrum of narcissism that everyone lies somewhere on. The author (who is a mental health clinician) suggests that there is a healthy level of narcissism in the middle of the scale (4-6). Below 4, with too little narcissism you can get various degrees of "echoism" - low self-regard, lacking a sense of self, putting others first to a fault. Above 6, you can get into unhealthy levels of narcissistic traits such as entitlement, exploitation, and disdain of vulnerability. This can obviously harm themselves and others. Plenty of people are higher on the scale but don't necessarily have NPD, and many people with some unhealthy traits *can* change if motivated (even those with NPD can change). I've literally seen it happen. IMHO there can be value in learning narcissistic trait patterns to prevent or recover from narcissistic abuse, if that is what someone is truly experiencing, without having to diagnose others. And we should all accept that we are somewhere along the spectrum of narcissism and that narcissistic traits are actually quite healthy in moderation. Just like we can all probably accept that everyone is on the spectrum of anxiety or anger and that there are healthy levels of each of those things.
To weigh in on the question as someone going through this, understanding their side is great for accepting them and moving forward. The actual trauma in the brain still needs to be processed. Emdr has helped me do that and when the trauma is healed I can focus on who they are now but regardless of who's to blame the trauma still has to be healed. Just holding people accountable has not helped me. Focusing on healing myself has.
Sometimes you just don’t want to see it and feel it. Any time anything happened with my mom i would cry till i forgot what happened. I would do everything possible to carry on cause i just wanted to live my life. It wasn’t till recently that i realized thats not healthy. I learned to see it, live it, feel it, and continue. I look at it and understand thats just what my mother is. So moral of the story, trauma is trauma folks, if its there its there and you can understand it and then learn from it!
The end of this episode really hit home today as I'm currently testing out some slightly more vunerable boundaries with a parent who's caused me harm and it's pretty continually a shitty situ (for lack of a better term :) but it is just something you have to figure out and then keep figuring out- thanks for sharing mak x
I didn’t love how when Alayna brought up that people in the Autism community have criticized Love on the Spectrum, Ashley immediately went into defending the show and had a retort for each point Alayna made (points that were originally made by people in the Autism community) , rather than listening to this new point of view. If someone in a community doesn’t like the way members of their community are being portrayed, listen to them!! Just surprised by how much push-back Ashley gave.
"Then" - Brad Paisley It's a really nice song, actually. I used to listen to country music more when I was growing up & he was an artist I liked. Even if you're not into honky-tonk country music, it's more like a ballad & it's really quite sweet.
@MissFenderr Subwoofer fix: You need a capacitor aka power cap. You can wire it into the positive red wire line and negative or ground in-between the amp and your car battery. It will not only save ur battery but also your alternator. Your welcome. Have a great day 😘
Ashley the title got me! Wonderful discussion of the question about parents! So much insight for this old guy, who has had a lot of therapy, dealing with parent issues myself. Also, some insight into my sister-in-law and her relationship with her gay daughter whom I love greatly. I've always hated how her mother treats her- also a burn-in-hell person. Hard to see her viewpoint, but will work on it.
i’m autistic and not gonna lie, my haunches were up at the beginning of the episode. i haven’t watched love on the spectrum but i do want to say that other people don’t get to decide if they have or haven’t infantilized a disabled person. that was one thing i took issue with here. the defensiveness that often shows up when examining how one thinks about/interacts with autistic people never feels great. but i also know your hearts are in the right place and it’s really important to be having these conversations! i appreciate that y’all didn’t shy away from it
I am autistic, I have not seen the show as a whole but the criticism I've seen and what has largely been reflective in trailers and clips I've seen is that the show feels very edited by neurotypical people FOR neurotypical people. Some scenes are edited to make the autistic people seem weird or odd. A lot of long pauses or no music when people do stuff, which feels like it's trying to show how "not normal" the autistic people are, even if the things said aren't even that weird. This is also visible in that thing you mentioned about "This is so and so, they like trains and hate loud noise". It's just weird to edit and add those things JUST because someone is autistic. It also does add to the whole infantilisation thing, which isn't great. Edit to clarify: A lot of the show still seems really good, the relationships are so cute I wan't to die and all the people on it seem really cool. It just feels very made by neurotypicals for neurotypicals, as autistic shows tend to be.
@@graceh4670 Oh yeah 100%. I don't at all have a problem with the people on the show talking about their passions (or whatever else), go off! The parts of the show that aren't the autistic people though seem a bit off sometimes. Like I said, the edits and how the narrator talks about autistic people can be a bit strange or patronizing at times. Like usual this is probably because producers and higherups are not autistic so the edits are through a very neurotypical lens.
few minutes in, wanted to explain-- (please consider this sharing information, and not an "angry correction"--genuinely so many people don't know, and as i explain below, there are reasons that some ideas about language are more common/expected outside of the community. so this is just a lengthy [hi, i'm autistic] explanation of the situation around language. which, as with any group, may change or shift slightly over the years! but just to keep on the up and up with what's going on, etc. this is meant to be informative, not critical.) saying 'autistic' is the preferred language. "on the spectrum" has mostly fallen out of use within the community, but isn't terrible. just sort of awkward, bc most people misunderstand what spectrum actually means (it's not linear, it's like a massive 3D color wheel--even 4D, as you can be in multiple places at once, like with many different sliders). but saying "autistic", referred to as "identity first language", is heavily preferred by autistic people. this is, of course, not an across the board thing, bc some people have different preferences. but when referring to us holistically as a group, saying "autistic" is way more likely to be what anyone you're speaking with is going to prefer. you're gonna have a higher success rate. the explanation is generally as follows: person-first language (person with autism, having autism) is what's taught to non-autistic people in order to remind them that we are Also Humans Who Deserve Respect. bc of this blatant dehumanized starting point, it generally does the opposite by othering us intensely. this language/phrasing also is said to serve the purpose of reminding us that "autism isn't all of who [we] are", as though it's an extra limb that we carry around and "shouldn't have", as if it's bad and could possibly be removed, and there would be a Good, Better, Non-Autistic Person left in its absence. identity-first language (autistic, autistic person) acknowledges that autism isn't A Disease or Disorder, it's a way of existing that is intensely different from what is considered the norm, and itself is extremely broad in its experience. it acknowledges that it's deeply ingrained as part of us--without being autistic, we quite literally would not be the same person, if we would exist at all. autistic is merely a descriptor of our lived experience and who we are, the same as queer or trans or black or latinx is. same with disabled--we disabled people generally prefer that phrasing rather than "with a disability", though again, there's variation among individuals. there are also going to be people who say they wish they weren't autistic, and as with any disability/disabled experience, that totally makes sense. sometimes there's intense pain and discomfort, and sometimes it comes from our brains/bodies and a lot of the time it comes from society & the world around us. but it is also generally accepted that we don't know what a non-traumatized autistic person looks like. all of the "calling cards" of autism are really just how we cope with trauma, or how we mask (or "fail" to mask, etc.)--or otherwise, the "extremes" of autistic folks with high support needs or who are "low functioning", whichever phrases they prefer to use for themselves. as any trans person can tell you, more visibility does not automatically equal more understanding or support. : / so bc of this variety and complexity and nuance, saying "autistic" as a descriptor allows for that room the same way any descriptor would. you get an idea of the realm of experience, but you don't know what someone's life has been like or will continue to be like. saying "with autism" flattens that and implies that it is extraneous and detrimental to us in our entirety, that without it we would be a Fixed And Normal Person, and that's deeply fucked up. final note-- all respect to people who prefer "with autism" phrasing for themselves for whatever reasons y'all have, 100%. however you conceive of yourselves, your life experiences, etc., are only yours to define. everything i've said above is how it gets conceived of/used by others who *aren't* autistic, and thus why it's generally safer/preferred to say autistic instead. but that doesn't make your preference, choice, experience, etc. any less important or true.
Thank you for showing some love to St Pete Mak! It’s my hometown and never felt like it fit with how FL is portrayed in the other states. Glad to see you agree and feeling accepted while you’re here. I should have realized with the Skyway Bridge and Dali on the wall behind you 🤦♀️ I just didn’t connect the dots!
I really feel like a lot of people have trouble separating the idea of 'fault' from 'cause'. Like, my parents are substantially at the cause of a lot of my issues, but that's a very different thing from it being their fault. They weren't doing these things to me, but being around the things they did was a huge influence on the way I became broken.
I enjoyed love on the spectrum. My son is on spectrum but much too young to date. However the show did help me along as he was being diagnosed around the time I watched it!
About intent, I say, if I thought the intent was to hurt me I wouldn’t be reaching out to heal the impact. Basically, if I thought your intent was to hurt me I wouldn’t want you to hurt me again or worse. If I think it wasn’t your intention I’m going to reach out and let you know how it impacted me for a chance to repair things.
Completely off topic. But i went to Ashley's show in Sacramento. It was a 10 outta 10. Even her opener was super funny. And I will be at the show in SF. Veryy happy for my first comedy show it was a gay woman lmaooo
19:50 @Alayna: The only song that immediately came to my mind with that line was „Then“ by Brad Paisley. Could this be the song you are referring to? Here are the chorus lyrics: And now you're my whole life Now you're my whole world I just can't believe the way I feel about you, girl Like a river meets the sea Stronger than it's ever been We've come so far since that day And I thought I loved you then 26:56 😂 You better apologize to your parents Mak.
I agree with Alayna… I honestly only “watch” those thirst trap reaction videos to support her channel but I don’t actually watch them myself because those young peoples all babies to me. So are the 3 of you. You’re babies to me. If I was part of the chosen family I’d be grandpappy. No one wants grandpappy to sexualize the babies.
Autistic here. The other big problem with the show is that it almost always shows Autistics dating and being matched with other Autistics! (At least the vast majority of cases). This is an issue because 1. It's not representative. Most of us end up dating non-autistics simply because that's the majority of the dating pool. 2. This representation can confine us into the box that Autistics SHOULD only be dating other Autistics and not someone neurotypical.
Late-diagnosed autistic woman here, doing a psych PhD about autistic relationships (consensual non-monogamy specifically). As a person who is married, has more than sufficient resources and all the lifestyle markers of success, crippling levels of empathy, a pretty good sense of humour and an okay sense of style, nobody would have guessed my neurotype based on the stereotypical idea of what an autistic person looks like (even though all those qualities are actually probably a result of my way of thinking).
Before I was aware of my own neurodivergence, I thought Love on the Spectrum was so cute, giggling at their mannerisms, swooning at their earnestness, and thinking that their families were so wonderful for being patient. However I've now realised (mainly by listening to the very welcoming autistic community) that shows like this (including all the shows about doctors and math geniuses), really do entrench this idea that autism = childlike socially inept nerd. And sure, those can be facets of all of us (not just autistic people), but it's not all we are. It means that people who do fit the stereotype are underestimated, and don't get opportunities to live their most satisfying lives. It means that those who don't fit the stereotype don't get any support, and end up feeling like they've lost so much potential, struggling with chronic pain, trying to cope through eating disorders, addiction issues and much higher rates of hurting themselves, with fatal results. We're more likely to be abused because it's automatically assumed we don't need education about intimate relationships, or coerced because we've been told we have to play this game and trust others if we want to get along, and we're gaslit into thinking we're unreliable witnesses because of our neurotype. I was once a research assistant at a gender clinic, where they noticed that a very high number of clients (as well as those in the wider LGBTQIA+ community) were autistic or otherwise neurodivergent (ADHD, etc.), and it was genuinely suggested that perhaps their gender dysphoria was just a result of their autism, so their need for transition was taken less seriously.
My deep interest in psychology and many hard life lessons helped me to learn how to fit in (as much as possible), but it is EXHAUSTING. As a researcher, aiming to be respected and valued by my peers and mentors, it can be scary wondering whether I should disclose my neurotype. Are they going to see it as an asset because I have some insight, or are they going to see me as a diversity hire who gets a pat on the head for being able to string words together? Are they going to roll their eyes if I gently suggest different terminology? Every interaction I have is layered with wondering how to tailor my self-expression to suit what this person's worldview is. And then I end up doing or saying something silly because I'm overwhelmed by juggling all of that, so then I kind of reinforce the issue.
Anyway, what a fun vent (grad rant!). I love that you're talking about this, and opening up the conversation to your majestic audience. I also love how in all your conversations you're keen to get the words right - this is oft-cited and a helpful guide to terminology www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/aut.2020.0014
And yes, many in the community speculate that Amelie is a neurodivergent queen :D
+
❤
I don't have the spoons to type a super in depth comment but this is basically what I feel. It infantilizes us and tbh makes me uncomfortable to watch.
This! All of this! Thank you for typing this perfect comment!
Love. Thank you. ♥️
Mak's "our girfriends are so much better than us" killed me lmao
Alayna with her hair up, Mak with her carrot juice and Ashley changing hats. Cute
"I love when girls..."
@@matzbr5tw ...drink carrot juice?
Someone with Autism here, I loved Love on the Spectrum. I didnt have a problem with them highlighting special interests and I didnt view it as something meant to shame people on the spectrum. I thought the show was wholesome and relatable and I loved seeing people on the spectrum getting support and shown acceptance and guidance.
What Mak shared about her relationship with her dad is so on point. It’s hard and it sucks, but you can’t help but try.
@Mak, THANK YOU! Being a almost 36 year old “baby gay” who only recently come out to my dad identifying as lesbian… I genuinely feel you have ‘saved’ my relationship with my dad by hearing you (trying to) share and express your perfect example of holding intent and impact.
“I recognise that the way he thinks, is because he cares about me. It’s not coming from a place of malice from his side. He’s not telling me this is wrong, don’t be gay. He’s saying that because he loves me and because he thinks he’s protecting me. It’s not right, but it’s his perspective of it”
Yes, I even wrote it down in my journal to look back on and remind myself of how we can move forward.
Again thank you… I really wish you would have been able to keep expressing yourself when you started off saying “The vulnerability on both sides is so uncomfortable”…. Especially because you amazing humans are the gay family some of us never had / don’t have.
Ps. That last part isn’t a “backhand comment”. Yes, I’ve listened to every episode because I love and appreciate all 3 of you!
it’s so cute whenever Ashley is just listening with that ADORABLE smile while the other two talk about something they enjoy or are excited about 😭😭
My friend recently lost her mom and this is beautifully written - "My mother was not a perfect parent or a perfect person, but she gave me many perfect moments and memories and her love.' Parents don't get a manual when raising children, and as I age, I can see my parents as a person. Makes me reflect on my own behaviour and how I treat my loved ones.
😭😔🫡
I know its a bit (and a funny bit!) and I trust that Ashley and Alayna know this when the cameras are off, but fellow listener, If you have a Mak in your life who still hasnt submitted her passport papers, rather than being like WTF WHY NOT, it maybe helpful to offer something like *I know it can be hard to get going on stuff like that sometimes, would you like me to sit with you while you fill it out, or go with you to the post office to send it off*. You dont need to hold their hand necessarily, but even being in the same room can be helpful. It will not only mean a better outcome emotionally for your Mak-proxy, but it will also mean the passport papers will get sent sooner. The inverse is also true, making your Mak-equivalent feel bad will make a) them feel bad, and b) the whole process will also take even longer.
that is such an amazing, smart approach. also great that you recognized that Ashley + Alayna most likely have said something similar off the pod. After reading this comment, definitely about to go text a friend something similar, thanks :)))
Ok but AS a make equivalent!! Couldn't agree more. I was so nervous just watching this episode just from the intro that 30 mins in I stopped to come down to the comments and see what she was told off about to soothe my weak little nerves. Big the more I put something off the more anxious I become about doing it and the harder it becomes to do, especially when it's not for lack of care but rather struggling with time management. Love this approach a lot
Slay. Yes.
Best part of my week
Real.
it’s rare to find a podcast where everyone is so genuine and entertaining at the same time. pls keep making this podcast!
True, well-said, etc
1:26 ASHLEY SAME 😭😭
loved the hyping up
I'm Autistic. I just want to start off with language, first. It seems that most allistic (i.e. non-autistic) people tend to use the terms "has autism" or "is on the spectrum" when referring to autistic people. It's up to the person how they want to identify themselves, but most of us use identify-first language, i.e. "I'm autistic". So, you don't have to dance around the terms. (It's like when abled people say "differently abled" instead of "disabled". Just say the word - I'm disabled). I think there are a few different regional Love on the Spectrum shows perhaps. I saw the Australian one. What I didn't like, and what I experienced as being the most discussed and disliked in the autistic community, is how they (the show hosts/psychologists etc) were trying to "teach" or "train" the autistic people to act in a more allistic manner when going on dates. It was so uncomfortable to watch.
Thank you for sharing!
Especially the fact that they were going on dates with OTHER AUTISTIC FOLKS, therefore they should be completely fine communicating AUTISTICALLY.
Autistic here!
Love you guys and love the pod
Yeah it's not like he's gay level 8 and i'm only a level 5, where both just gay.
Ohh my gosh, thank you so much for educating us, though you shouldn’t have to, this was very helpful 🫶🫶
Hey also autistic here, I just wanted to double back on something you said, "autism is binary" recently I've been becoming more aware of this thing called subclinical levels of pathologies and conditions. This is basically the idea that pattern's like autism and adhd actually also exist at smaller levels on a population level. For example covid made everything worse but combined with the advertising shift to short form content population wide adhd increased artificially. Sub clinical levels of adhd can include a phenomenon know as environmental/periodic adhd which is especially seen in patients with clinical depression as it's often a periodic illness and alternatively in neurotypical people undergoing intense amounts of external or internal stress. Sub clinical levels also describe symptoms that are seen in gaps wider than six months. Policing who gets resources (this is not the same as prioritizing based on limited resources) is going to mean less resources for a wide range of experiences that we have limited diagnostic data for. Another point to mention is not all autistic people experience all the diagnostic criteria at the same time in their lives for example I was extremely hypersensitive as a kid but due to a late diagnosis of autism and also other disabilities by the time I was 16 my body was so broken I was struggling to feel anything. Whereas now I've been treated and my nerves are healing I find it difficult to go outside of my temperature controlled, noice canceled room because sounds etc are more intense now to the point of pain sometimes. With all this data it's unlikely that autism isn't a spectrum.
References/further reading:
Dr kanojia 2023
~ sub clinical Levels of adhd (source aoe course/Dr k's guide)
~ periodic/situational adhd
(Source Healthygamer TH-cam content + aoe Course/Dr k's guide)
Hey also autistic here, I just wanted to double back on something you said, "autism is binary" recently I've been becoming more aware of this thing called subclinical levels of pathologies and conditions. This is basically the idea that pattern's like autism and adhd actually also exist at smaller levels on a population level. For example covid made everything worse but combined with the advertising shift to short form content population wide adhd increased artificially. Sub clinical levels of adhd can include a phenomenon know as environmental/periodic adhd which is especially seen in patients with clinical depression as it's often a periodic illness and alternatively in neurotypical people undergoing intense amounts of external or internal stress. Sub clinical levels also describe symptoms that are seen in gaps wider than six months. Policing who gets resources (this is not the same as prioritizing based on limited resources) is going to mean less resources for a wide range of experiences that we have limited diagnostic data for. Another point to mention is not all autistic people experience all the diagnostic criteria at the same time in their lives for example I was extremely hypersensitive as a kid but due to a late diagnosis of autism and also other disabilities by the time I was 16 my body was so broken I was struggling to feel anything. Whereas now I've been treated and my nerves are healing I find it difficult to go outside of my temperature controlled, noice canceled room because sounds etc are more intense now to the point of pain sometimes. With all this data it's unlikely that autism isn't a spectrum.
References/further reading:
Dr kanojia 2023
~ sub clinical Levels of adhd (source aoe course/Dr k's guide)
~ periodic/situational adhd
(Source Healthygamer TH-cam content + aoe Course/Dr k's guide)
Yes!! People still seem to think that the spectrum goes from "not" to "a lot". I don't get it, it is not linear. It's like a color wheel type spectrum. I also kind of which we could just stop being debated. You are pregnant, or you aren't, you are autistic, or you aren't, it doesn't mean we are all the same, it means we share somethings in common.
My dad committed suicide 3 weeks ago. He was very distant and wierd acting the last year, and made many mistakes when it came to his family. It has been extremely difficult accepting that he is gone, but I feel like I lost him a long time ago. The last year he reallt pushed us away to shelter us from his problems. I was so incredibly mad at him for never having time for me, seeing me or even chatting on the phone. In retrospect I understand that he thought he did the right thing, protecting us from seeing his pain. Although I feel guilty for picking fights about it and nagging him about it alot, I recognize that my feelings were valid. Listening to your podcast really helped me today. I got out of bed and showered, which isn't much to brag about but thank you nontheless. I will certainly not make this my whole personality, but a part of my story. ❤
Sorry for oversharing🫶
U ok?
Mak just sitting there while Alayna and Ashley fight ghosts is giving "mom and dad, you're so embarassing" 😂
I'm so happy I found this podcast. I honestly don't know where I'd be without it.
I love this episode because even though everyone was in a silly goofy mood they answered a serious question about trauma and why therapy’s important. I really appreciate this so much as a person who struggles with trauma and accepting my parents perspective. Love Alyana, Ashley and Maks weekly wisdom ❤
Could this be the first time EVER, not including potential Patreon content, but also including Alayna's own channel, that we we have learned any personal detail about Alayna's mysterious girlfriend (i.e. her job)?❓
other than that she’s Alayna’s pride and joy whom she loves very much haha
'It's so hard to make reasonable viral.' COMPLETELY AGREE Ashley, I mean it is why I stay away from News channels and sites and am much more guarded about what I consume on media (deleting my Facebook has been so ego-killing in a good way), everything trying to scare you in to clicking on it, sensationalising trivial things also, whereas I try to focus on what I can control.
37:30 ugh yes that part was so good!
Having already beepbooped the news, like a week ago, I adore Alayna’s “what’d you do?” energy
In retrospect I thought it was the moving in thing, which I thought was big and cool, I think I agree on not expecting Alayna to be the one getting all “but did you fuck a lot?”
beepbooed?
I have loving memories of my parents. Neither I nor my brother really had a rebellious stage because my parents were so open to hearing our opinions. We discussed everything including intimate stuff. We were so lucky and my brother has brought up his children the same. There is always laughter in their house.
Ironically, you discussed life saving partners, I found out afterwards that my niece was performing CPR and using a defibrillator at her works because another member of staff collapsed, unfortunately unsuccessfully. My niece however was commended by the emergency services for not only following correct procedure but also organising the rest of the staff and removing the family of the victim and on lookers from the immediate scene despite being one of the youngest there.
43:16
When I was about 14, I went through existential and identity crises, and found myself being very disappointed in my parents because I finally started to see them as humans, rather than as god-like beings of perfection. For a period of time, I felt that I could do a better job at parenting myself than they could, yet eventually came to the conclusion that I would rather appreciate my childhood than focus my energy on worrying about the way I was being brought up.
Tl; dr: realized my parents were imperfect before adulthood, came 2 conclusion that i should ignore it
*also apologies if this isn't totally on topic or if you find it boring*
Lmao, the cheering for Ashley putting on her hat was so cute & funny. Resonated with the sentiment of how that'd reverse trends of body dysmorphia if everyone had their fashion choices applauded for.
I'm so glad you mentioned this. as Alayna mentioned people accusing people of being narcissistic and gaslighting when they are not just takes away from the people who actually go through this. I am one go those people my father abused me for 12 years of my life and still 6 years later continues to tell me he's done nothing wrong. luckily I managed to get him out of my life but I still receive messages from him to this day. I think when I tell people that my dads a narcissist its deemed as not that bad because of how many people are now labeled as narcissist through small disagreements.
thank you so much for speaking even a little it on this topic cause people really need to hear it!
love you guys
❤
I’m on the spectrum, as is my daughter and I hated the “introduction” part of love on the spectrum but loved the show over all. It felt like taking anything that is typically “autistic” about the person and making it sum up who they are. If I was describing myself it wouldn’t be “ I love to collect rocks/crystals and hate direct eye contact” because those things are trivial and don’t really explain who I am.
Thank you!
"she's about to put something delicious in my mouth"
everybody instinctively making the same exact face, including me and all other viewers/listeners. lol
I didn't even get to that part of the episode yet & I'm laughing at this comment , haha
❤️ I am living for all the parent talk. I've gone through this myself. It's hard learning that someone is who they are and not who you wish they were. But if I were a parent, I can only imagine how difficult it would also be to handle and support a growing child during every step of life so I've become more open and accepted that my parents were bound to make mistakes or do the wrong thing every now and then. They love me, whether it be in a way I want or not, and sometimes I just have to get what I can from their kind of love, while for what is not there, I can seek it outwards from other loving people around me.
You're so wise 😌
it's so interesting you said understanding intent helps with trauma because as a minor who lives with their parents, knowing my parents are flawed and aren't good for me while also being human and loving me makes my daily life so much harder, because i know if they have the understanding they would give me the life i should've gotten but they don't, and i'm dealing with the negative effects from just bad luck. the sheer randomness and the lack of targetting makes it hurt more for me, because it really is that i just got the short end of the stick. there's no horrible person, i just was unlucky and that's going to affect me for the rest of my life.
i think the lack of connecting it into a greater good, even something like a higher power (i'm agnostic and my parents are religious), makes it really feel hopeless because i just got a bad dice roll and if it was better, this could all have been avoided.
Parents are humans, humans are always flawed. Your parents also have had parents that have traumatised them in a way. Knowing this does not make it right, and it does not make it easy. It is a difficult time in your life when you start to see this, but through acknowledgement and after a while acceptance, comes growth. The behaviour of your parents is not your responsibility, but understanding and learning to deal with your trauma is, and it is totally possible to get to a healthy and happy situation. Find a support system outside of your household, and once you’re no longer a minor search for ways to move out and create your own safe space. You will get through this!
@@lizan1993 thank you so much!
if it's any consolation, i'm literally experiencing the exact same situation right now and i feel so seen by your comment. even down to the whole being agnostic with religious parents. you're not alone
@@urdelicatepov wow, it's so nice to know that I made someone feel seen! I hope we both get to better points one day.
@@ignorance_is_not_blisshey, me too! I’m agnostic and my parent is religious. Life is tough right now but I believe in us! I really hope things get better for us soon 💕
This episode was really good for me, I've grown up around friends and family in an anti-gay cult I was put in (me are gay) and you guys's words and perspectives helped reveal how to cope mentally better. I have no jokes to comment this time. Just thanks, you guys. 😊❤️
I'm 17 and I've just gotten to the point you guys were talking about, about accepting my circumstance with my relationship with my mother. The past few years I had just been blaming her and painted her as the villain. I think that was a way for me not to empathize with her so that I wouldn't feel bad, almost like I was protecting myself. But also because I have not had much validation for my feelings and experiences when growing up, so me excusing her behavior was also me agreeing with her and therefore not validating my my feelings and the impact that her actions has had on me.
But recently, just like you guys said, i have started to learn to differentiate those two. I know she has love and care for me, but in many aspects of my life I will never get that support from her that I wish I had/wish to have . But, that does not excuse the impact nor my feelings towards some of her behaviors. ❤❤
Another great episode, much love ❤❤
Mac, as a dad, not your Dan and you can ignore this all you want but I am emotional and raw tonight, you are beautiful, smart, funny and loved. If the family you were born into is not meeting your needs. Accept the family you have found and know grief is a journey and not an event. I wish you love and joy and to accept what is and what could be.
I'm facing the exact same thing that mak is currently with my mom. Knowing that shes not homophobic because of hate but rather because of fear, and when I am able to come out to her (hopefully in the next couple years) I'll have to also juggle having a realtionship with someone who thinks I'm going to burn in hell because I like women and want to marry one. Its a situation that sucks and It gives me a little comfort knowing I'm not alone
45 episode already! I'm so grateful we've made it this far. Sending love to my new found family and you will live in my brain forever @22:00
Mak be like "this might be one of the times where I just listen" then proceeds to give a perfect answer to the question through a very mature analysis of her own situation
This Q and A hit so close to home for me. I had to cut my dad out of my life earlier this year and I’m just getting to that point of “I love you, but I can’t have a relationship with you. It’s not your fault, you do the best you can, but it’s not healthy.”
:( that's tough to accept
Friendly note on inclusive language about autism: In the autism community, the preferred terminology is "Autistic, or “Autistic person,” rather than “person with autism”, because they understand autism as an inherent part of an individual's identity (their neurology) rather than an "accessory" trait. Of course, if someone self identifies as having autism, please use their preferred terms.
This distinction is referred to as identity first language vs person first language.
I find this ironic because when I was volunteering at a school there were posters that said the opposite, to emphasize the person not their label. Is this something that is debated within the community or is there a true consensus?
Edited as I get further down in the comments: It does seem to be the consensus here. I wonder why they were training educators to do the opposite?
@@MichelleK.B. As far as I understand, many groups of parents* of autistic children advocate for person first language (person with autism) whereas the vast majority of autistics able to advocate for themselves actually prefer identity first (autistic person).
*: or other groups of neurotypicals trying to advocate for autistics who aren't able to advocate for themselves
To be fair this preference varies A LOT from community to community. There really isn’t as much consensus on the topic as some believe.
You guys discuss such important topics I always feel like I’m learning more from an hour of podcast than from an hour of lectures
"it's going to be there forever but also you have to let go of it" why am i sobbing!!!!!!!!!!!! i think of this often, especially when it comes to both my depression and sa respectively. on one hand i think once you've been depressed, you always will be, but you get better at managing it. same with sa- that shitty person/people will always have done that thing to you, and it sucks, it's really genuinely awful, but i've come to the conclusion that i can't spend my life sad or angry or both because of a decision someone else made. it's sick and unfair that i have to do the work to get over it but they've possibly never given it a second thought, but i'm willing to do it because i love myself and i deserve better than a life of regret, shame and sadness.
😭😭🫡
I had a couple partial seizures at work today. Now they’re talking about moving me to a different area away from all my friends and the only people who know me. So many people are looking at me like I’m some kind of freak. Anyway, all that to say, it was REALLY nice to come home and giggle with ya’all after a REALLY miserable day!
It’s easy to sign up for a US passport, just do it! You fill out the form, either take a photo at home/get it taken at a place, then mail it off! I wish it weren’t expensive, because technically it’s our personal identification.
I recently renewed mine last year, and it was really easy & arrived after a few months. Traveling is fun, and it’s also good to have a passport in case of an emergency.
i only have one thought surrounding love on the spectrum bc i haven't seen it (and yes, i have seen autistic people who loved it, those who hated it, and those who had complicated feelings about it--i, personally, get really uncomfortable really easily and don't like dating reality shows, so i've avoided it)
also like my other comment--please do just take this as participating in the conversation as was requested! this is not a criticism or anything mean-spirited! merely sharing some thoughts and reflections that can be helpful in examining & reframing shit in general, not just re: this show.
the thought is basically this:
if a show like this makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, i kind of want to encourage you to examine that feeling.
i read something recently about examining our feelings of disgust. they happen quickly and without tons of thought, and so they're usually worth examining. even with things like moldy food that "should" cause disgust--bc plenty of molds are good for us and are used beneficially in medicine or in food preservation and production. so that disgust response needs to be mediated by education.
so what is described in the first bit of the video around this show making viewers feel all cute and warm and happy--that kind of needs to be examined a little bit.
why, exactly, is it causing that emotion or reaction? what is it about these people in this situation specifically is causing that? would you have the same reaction to non-autistic people having these interactions? is this warm feeling about feeling as though you or the show have "done something good"? or does it come from a sort of compersion? is this feeling similar to when seeing children do something sweet and kind, while "inept" and learning? or is this feeling more similar to seeing adults be deliberately kind and funny, etc?
and perhaps key:
would you feel comfortable, like a whole, respected person, if someone had that kind of reaction to your own dating life?
to reiterate, i haven't seen the show. i have NO OPINION about the show itself. so i am not, at any point here, referring to the show or what happens in it or anything. merely the feelings it inspires in the viewers that were discussed here.
and much like "explore your gender!" conversations where "it's super cool if you still decide you're cis! at least you did the thinking!", this is a situation where if you examine those feelings and come out the other side still feeling that way, all good.
if the answers to the example questions i left above are like "yeah, for sure, everything's chill. i enjoyed the show bc i liked the ppl on it and thought their relationships were really fun to watch, and i liked their stories and hearing about and seeing their life experiences which are different from mine. and also, bc sharing is learning, i also learned some stuff. seeing budding relationships warms my heart bc i like seeing human connection."--
then hell yeah! cool!
i'm also not here to judge or say who should or shouldn't do something or how anyone should feel! i just think it's really worth examining how we feel abt stuff and *why*/where that comes from.
i've been doing that a lot more recently with a lot of stuff in life, and just doing it casually and with a little bit of thought applied has made me kinder and more considering in my actions.
(take w a grain of salt, but i do have ocd and sometimes get in morality spirals, and this has actually kind of helped a bit. it may make things worse for others, who knows, so y'know, ymmv)
the reason i want this, specifically, examined is because that is the same kind of feeling that inspiration porn is meant to cause in viewers. or "happy" stories about disabled kids getting pity parties and undue amounts of attention that they might not really want, but that are meant to be positive, and it makes other people feel good in a condescending charity case sort of way.
it can sometimes be difficult to tell representations/treatments apart. are these disabled people being treated with full consideration and accommodations for their different lived experiences and needs? or are they being treated as "exceptional" and "other" in a way that makes their entire existence About That?
i think that's why discussion around this show has been very complicated. and i want to encourage us to not just accept the side we instinctively agree with. i think there is not Definitive Statement to be made abt the show, based on the discussions around it. but i also think those discussions, nuance, and complicated feelings should be the takeaway, and not necessarily "welp, then this show was 100% fine and perfect, and i can enjoy it without thinking abt it any further" OR "this show was unequivocally bad and nothing like this should ever be done again"
again, reiterating: i am making no claims about the show. AND ALSO! plenty of perfectly innocent and not-shitty things ALSO inspire warm fuzzy feelings! so i'm not saying anything that makes you feel good is immediately suspect. lol
i'm saying THIS thing MIGHT be suspect, because of the cultural context around how disability is featured, situated, thought of, treated, represented, etc.
//sigh
will i ever stop being so fucking longwinded? who can say?
(me, i can, and the answer is, unfortunately, no. apologies.)
that's a really good point and suggestion!
agreed, people should always look and consider both sides of the story! That's how we learn!
excellent comment! never change, being longwinded is great
I really liked watching love on the spectrum, but after reading some of the discourse, the biggest problem for me is that a lot of the advice/coaching comes down to masking your autism as much as possible in order to be more deserving of love... There is no attention toward looking for a partner willing to accomodate your needs like you try to accomodate theirs, nor the fact that communication styles tend to differ a lot between autistics and allistics, but that communication between two autistics is much less likely to lead to misunderstanding especially if they aren't attempting to mask.
Also, for those of us with high masking ability (sometimes still called "high functioning") it would have been nice to have some more representation on that end of the spectrum as well. Perhaps also paying attention to the fact that we *can* do all of these things to seem "normal", but it eats up a lot of energy, so it's good to look for a partner who you can safely unmask around.
+
I ❤ Mak. Mak's effortlessly wholesome!
I'm actually so grateful for your conversations.
The whole intent vs impact thing made me think about the rather tumultuous relationship I had with my therapist. Had a good cry think about it. Every tear heals, thanks y'all :)
"Every tear heals" aw...wait., that's beautiful
Starting my Wednesday off with Chosen Family makes it so ok with me to wake up an hour earlier than nessecairy for no reason.
Becoming a parent really helped me understand that my parents did the best they could in raising me, considering the upbringing they had and the information they had at the time (the 80’s). That doesn’t mean that I wasn’t harmed by things they did or said (and I’m still working through that in my 40’s), but I definitely have more empathy for them now. As parents, the majority of us do the best we can and hope to fuck our kids up as little as possible.
This was the best pod that you guys have ever given!!!! Loved it!
Wow. GREAT question, and even greater insights! This one really resonated with me. Ashley and Alayna have not only done the work but I mean come on, they’re geniuses and gurus when it comes to mental health/therapy and IM SO HERE FOR IT. So inspiring (not even joking) ❤
Man, I love y’all 🤟🏼
Thanks for the trauma talk, I never heard anyone else mention what I’ve been going through, and what I will continue to go through. This episode meant a lot to me.
Don’t forget to hydrate! 🧃
Intent vs impact is something I think about day in & day out, constantly all of the time.
It can get very metaphysical/philosophical really quick ❤
First Dates is a really popular show (uk & ireland versions are the best) that has a very similar style and uses similar music. People of all ages and walks of life are matched up and go on blind dates in the Blind Dates restaurant. It really celebrates the weird in us all and matches people up in such a gorgeous way. Obviously there are disasters too but it's Not overly sexualised or exploitative in any way. It's light and fluffy and a very similar tone to Love on the Spectrum.
Highly recommend, it's been my comfort show for years. Little baby Ashley will love it ❤
The talk about parents and trauma makes me just want to give the queer community just the biggest biggest hug ❤
33:18 the raised finger bit is one of my favorite things from this show
Just as i woke up wooohoooo. Having breakfast with the chosen family
Per narcissism - I highly recommend a book I've been reading called "Rethinking Narcissism," which proposes a 1-10 spectrum of narcissism that everyone lies somewhere on. The author (who is a mental health clinician) suggests that there is a healthy level of narcissism in the middle of the scale (4-6). Below 4, with too little narcissism you can get various degrees of "echoism" - low self-regard, lacking a sense of self, putting others first to a fault. Above 6, you can get into unhealthy levels of narcissistic traits such as entitlement, exploitation, and disdain of vulnerability. This can obviously harm themselves and others. Plenty of people are higher on the scale but don't necessarily have NPD, and many people with some unhealthy traits *can* change if motivated (even those with NPD can change). I've literally seen it happen. IMHO there can be value in learning narcissistic trait patterns to prevent or recover from narcissistic abuse, if that is what someone is truly experiencing, without having to diagnose others. And we should all accept that we are somewhere along the spectrum of narcissism and that narcissistic traits are actually quite healthy in moderation. Just like we can all probably accept that everyone is on the spectrum of anxiety or anger and that there are healthy levels of each of those things.
To weigh in on the question as someone going through this, understanding their side is great for accepting them and moving forward. The actual trauma in the brain still needs to be processed. Emdr has helped me do that and when the trauma is healed I can focus on who they are now but regardless of who's to blame the trauma still has to be healed. Just holding people accountable has not helped me. Focusing on healing myself has.
This truly was Ashley's episode 💚. Loved your point of view :)
Sometimes you just don’t want to see it and feel it. Any time anything happened with my mom i would cry till i forgot what happened. I would do everything possible to carry on cause i just wanted to live my life. It wasn’t till recently that i realized thats not healthy. I learned to see it, live it, feel it, and continue. I look at it and understand thats just what my mother is. So moral of the story, trauma is trauma folks, if its there its there and you can understand it and then learn from it!
i loved this episode! maybe the best one yet
Yayyyyyy for this podcast life is really difficult right now and this is the only thing that is cheering me up love u guys thank u ❤️
20:30 time. Song is “Then” by Brad Paisley
The end of this episode really hit home today as I'm currently testing out some slightly more vunerable boundaries with a parent who's caused me harm and it's pretty continually a shitty situ (for lack of a better term :) but it is just something you have to figure out and then keep figuring out- thanks for sharing mak x
20:10 The song is Then by Brad Paisley. I was also thinking of it just before Alayna said it.
thank you ♡
I didn’t love how when Alayna brought up that people in the Autism community have criticized Love on the Spectrum, Ashley immediately went into defending the show and had a retort for each point Alayna made (points that were originally made by people in the Autism community) , rather than listening to this new point of view. If someone in a community doesn’t like the way members of their community are being portrayed, listen to them!! Just surprised by how much push-back Ashley gave.
"Then" - Brad Paisley
It's a really nice song, actually. I used to listen to country music more when I was growing up & he was an artist I liked. Even if you're not into honky-tonk country music, it's more like a ballad & it's really quite sweet.
@MissFenderr Subwoofer fix: You need a capacitor aka power cap. You can wire it into the positive red wire line and negative or ground in-between the amp and your car battery. It will not only save ur battery but also your alternator. Your welcome. Have a great day 😘
Ashley the title got me! Wonderful discussion of the question about parents! So much insight for this old guy, who has had a lot of therapy, dealing with parent issues myself. Also, some insight into my sister-in-law and her relationship with her gay daughter whom I love greatly. I've always hated how her mother treats her- also a burn-in-hell person. Hard to see her viewpoint, but will work on it.
i’m autistic and not gonna lie, my haunches were up at the beginning of the episode. i haven’t watched love on the spectrum but i do want to say that other people don’t get to decide if they have or haven’t infantilized a disabled person. that was one thing i took issue with here. the defensiveness that often shows up when examining how one thinks about/interacts with autistic people never feels great. but i also know your hearts are in the right place and it’s really important to be having these conversations! i appreciate that y’all didn’t shy away from it
idk why but this episode might be my favorite it was such a learning and healing experience for me ty guy so so much🫶
These episodes just keep getting better and better
I love both of those shows. I will be working with children that are on the spectrum in my new day job and I'm super excited!
Congrats on landing the job!
The question in this episode was so good! Very important concept, and the conversation around it was excellent.
I always listen to this before work, puts me in the best mood.
Each time Ashley pronounces Amélie "Amahlee" my French heart dies a bit more
I get you.
I am autistic, I have not seen the show as a whole but the criticism I've seen and what has largely been reflective in trailers and clips I've seen is that the show feels very edited by neurotypical people FOR neurotypical people. Some scenes are edited to make the autistic people seem weird or odd. A lot of long pauses or no music when people do stuff, which feels like it's trying to show how "not normal" the autistic people are, even if the things said aren't even that weird. This is also visible in that thing you mentioned about "This is so and so, they like trains and hate loud noise". It's just weird to edit and add those things JUST because someone is autistic. It also does add to the whole infantilisation thing, which isn't great.
Edit to clarify: A lot of the show still seems really good, the relationships are so cute I wan't to die and all the people on it seem really cool. It just feels very made by neurotypicals for neurotypicals, as autistic shows tend to be.
@@graceh4670 Oh yeah 100%. I don't at all have a problem with the people on the show talking about their passions (or whatever else), go off! The parts of the show that aren't the autistic people though seem a bit off sometimes. Like I said, the edits and how the narrator talks about autistic people can be a bit strange or patronizing at times. Like usual this is probably because producers and higherups are not autistic so the edits are through a very neurotypical lens.
few minutes in, wanted to explain--
(please consider this sharing information, and not an "angry correction"--genuinely so many people don't know, and as i explain below, there are reasons that some ideas about language are more common/expected outside of the community. so this is just a lengthy [hi, i'm autistic] explanation of the situation around language. which, as with any group, may change or shift slightly over the years! but just to keep on the up and up with what's going on, etc. this is meant to be informative, not critical.)
saying 'autistic' is the preferred language. "on the spectrum" has mostly fallen out of use within the community, but isn't terrible. just sort of awkward, bc most people misunderstand what spectrum actually means (it's not linear, it's like a massive 3D color wheel--even 4D, as you can be in multiple places at once, like with many different sliders).
but saying "autistic", referred to as "identity first language", is heavily preferred by autistic people. this is, of course, not an across the board thing, bc some people have different preferences. but when referring to us holistically as a group, saying "autistic" is way more likely to be what anyone you're speaking with is going to prefer. you're gonna have a higher success rate.
the explanation is generally as follows: person-first language (person with autism, having autism) is what's taught to non-autistic people in order to remind them that we are Also Humans Who Deserve Respect. bc of this blatant dehumanized starting point, it generally does the opposite by othering us intensely. this language/phrasing also is said to serve the purpose of reminding us that "autism isn't all of who [we] are", as though it's an extra limb that we carry around and "shouldn't have", as if it's bad and could possibly be removed, and there would be a Good, Better, Non-Autistic Person left in its absence.
identity-first language (autistic, autistic person) acknowledges that autism isn't A Disease or Disorder, it's a way of existing that is intensely different from what is considered the norm, and itself is extremely broad in its experience. it acknowledges that it's deeply ingrained as part of us--without being autistic, we quite literally would not be the same person, if we would exist at all. autistic is merely a descriptor of our lived experience and who we are, the same as queer or trans or black or latinx is. same with disabled--we disabled people generally prefer that phrasing rather than "with a disability", though again, there's variation among individuals.
there are also going to be people who say they wish they weren't autistic, and as with any disability/disabled experience, that totally makes sense. sometimes there's intense pain and discomfort, and sometimes it comes from our brains/bodies and a lot of the time it comes from society & the world around us.
but it is also generally accepted that we don't know what a non-traumatized autistic person looks like. all of the "calling cards" of autism are really just how we cope with trauma, or how we mask (or "fail" to mask, etc.)--or otherwise, the "extremes" of autistic folks with high support needs or who are "low functioning", whichever phrases they prefer to use for themselves. as any trans person can tell you, more visibility does not automatically equal more understanding or support. : /
so bc of this variety and complexity and nuance, saying "autistic" as a descriptor allows for that room the same way any descriptor would. you get an idea of the realm of experience, but you don't know what someone's life has been like or will continue to be like.
saying "with autism" flattens that and implies that it is extraneous and detrimental to us in our entirety, that without it we would be a Fixed And Normal Person, and that's deeply fucked up.
final note-- all respect to people who prefer "with autism" phrasing for themselves for whatever reasons y'all have, 100%. however you conceive of yourselves, your life experiences, etc., are only yours to define. everything i've said above is how it gets conceived of/used by others who *aren't* autistic, and thus why it's generally safer/preferred to say autistic instead. but that doesn't make your preference, choice, experience, etc. any less important or true.
👏👏👏
EXCELLENT, BASED COMMENT TY
Thank you for showing some love to St Pete Mak! It’s my hometown and never felt like it fit with how FL is portrayed in the other states. Glad to see you agree and feeling accepted while you’re here. I should have realized with the Skyway Bridge and Dali on the wall behind you 🤦♀️ I just didn’t connect the dots!
I really feel like a lot of people have trouble separating the idea of 'fault' from 'cause'. Like, my parents are substantially at the cause of a lot of my issues, but that's a very different thing from it being their fault. They weren't doing these things to me, but being around the things they did was a huge influence on the way I became broken.
Love whatever you three post, thanks for brightening my Wednesdays ❤
Oh my god, Ashley & Alayna being disappointed parents at Mak not getting her passport at 26:00.
Most favouretist podcast in the entire podcast world. Yes, that is a word.
I enjoyed love on the spectrum. My son is on spectrum but much too young to date. However the show did help me along as he was being diagnosed around the time I watched it!
equally exciting and disappointing when it’s still early morning and i’ve already finished this weeks episode. amazing
Not me refreshing until I get the notification that it's been uploaded
About intent, I say, if I thought the intent was to hurt me I wouldn’t be reaching out to heal the impact. Basically, if I thought your intent was to hurt me I wouldn’t want you to hurt me again or worse. If I think it wasn’t your intention I’m going to reach out and let you know how it impacted me for a chance to repair things.
Completely off topic. But i went to Ashley's show in Sacramento. It was a 10 outta 10. Even her opener was super funny. And I will be at the show in SF. Veryy happy for my first comedy show it was a gay woman lmaooo
Thank you so much! I'm so glad you could make it.
19:50 @Alayna: The only song that immediately came to my mind with that line was „Then“ by Brad Paisley. Could this be the song you are referring to?
Here are the chorus lyrics:
And now you're my whole life
Now you're my whole world
I just can't believe the way I feel about you, girl
Like a river meets the sea
Stronger than it's ever been
We've come so far since that day
And I thought I loved you then
26:56 😂 You better apologize to your parents Mak.
I must know what "grimy" music Alayna plays on her subwoofer 😂😂😂 Imagining her listening to Benny and Conway is my favorite Chosen Family lore ever
love you guys💞
Yooo!!! Mak just got so deep with the letting go of the woof!!
Mak inspired me to get my own carrot juice.
Same😂
@@floraframes me too, it was very carroty lol
Same!
& i was subsequently sad it didn't transform my life
@@allyson-- Give it another go!
I feel for you with your relationship with your dad. I completely understand growing up in a strict religious household :,)
It hurts genuinely it pains to know the homophobia and the way my parental relationship is forever changed
The question and conversation hits hard today. ❤️🩹💜
I so badly want a short that's just a montage of every time Ashley and Alayna flinch and look around with zero context
Lol
I agree with Alayna… I honestly only “watch” those thirst trap reaction videos to support her channel but I don’t actually watch them myself because those young peoples all babies to me. So are the 3 of you. You’re babies to me. If I was part of the chosen family I’d be grandpappy. No one wants grandpappy to sexualize the babies.
This one hit different man. I've been going through this process and still am struggling with it, even though I understand everything now
this, THIS!!! is the first podcast I watch of you guys 😂 well I know where the rest of weekend is going 🥳🥰❤️🌈