IBM 5150 PC testing huge old IBM & Seagate hard drives
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2014
- Using my original IBM PC to test two old full-height 5¼" MFM hard drives: a rusty IBM WD25 20 MB drive that proved to be a dud, and a Seagate ST-4096 80 MB drive that works perfectly.
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Thanks for sharing this. I'm now 53 and remember my first PC I bought when I graduated from college in 1987. It was a 286 type with a Seagate 4096 HD and a monochrome monitor. It set me back $2000 which was a lot of $$$ in 1987.
About 2 years later that hard drive failed.... But I did send a lot of resumes out from the computer which yielded my my
first job as an Electrical Engineer. Later I bought a 386, then a 486 and then a Pentium, etc.
Love the sound of those old drives spinning up.
Those are some big hard drives. I love how far we have come with technology
Had the ST-4096 for years in my PC. Love the startup sound at 5:32 of it - brings back memories. :)
That is why I like these older drives so much, the unique sounds that they make when they power up.
1988: An 80MB HARD DRIVE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WOW!! SO MANY FILES I COULD PUT ON IT
2016: Only a 120 GB Hard drive?! Bullshit!!!
:( i have 1 pc and he have 111 gb and another with 148 gb :P
So true!
Heck, it only took until Windows 3.1 for 80 MB to go from a luxury to a necessity, which was only, like...3 years after that.
funny enough, my friend nowadays has a 60GB 5400RPM hard drive in his MacBook. Im like ??? how are you not out of storage yet?
I've got a 9GB HDD from 1993.
Oh, wow! That brings back bad memories. LOL I remember going through all that to set up a 20 MB drive in a Tandy 1000. We thought we'd never run out of space... :)
Imagine how much memory you could get on a hard drive that size, using modern technology!
I suppose it'd be the equivalent size of four SSDs if you're talking NAND.
Doesn't a 1701 error mean it's actually a 23rd-century starship and therefore incompatible with 1980s technology?
Only 80 mb! Love how big it is but how little storage it had. But at the time that was plenty I guess
It's a bit of a far cry from the IBM 305 ramac though that thing was the size of two refrigerators and only had five Meg storage
That is more than a lot of storage you could fit massive programs on that may be even windows 1.0
The IBM 305 RAMAC, the first hard drive in the world, held 5 MB and was the size of a large cafeteria fridge, and even the first consumer drive held only 5 MB at the size of the drives in this video. 80 MB was actually a pretty large capacity for an old PC or PC-XT, 8 times what you'd have found standard, because they usually had 10 MB drives.
Listen closely and you can hear the crickets.
I remember the days when those drives were huge money; although at that time I was only in the 5th grade - we had a really good librarian who also dubbed as the computer science "teacher". Cool demo.
awesome videos....i love seeing how far we have come in computers...things we take advantage of these days when building computers or replacing parts....now drives are just plug-n-play really....no configuration
I really like the sound of those 1980s era hard drives, they are much easier to listen to than those pesky ball bearing drives from the late 90s and early 2000s.
I spy a Dell Optiplex hiding under the desk.
I miss the sounds of the MFM drives. They had such hi-tech sounding tunes.
This brings back memories. The first hard drives I ever had for the first PC I built were two 40meg hard drives. I had almost forgotten about all the information you needed to know about these to get them formatted. Still, I miss those days, there was more hardware, you needed to know more and to me, it was more enjoyable. :)
Your voice is amazing. +1 subscriber here. Keep up the good work!
Congratulation on that hard drive find, with the Seagate.
i'm still trying to find one of those in working condition for a decent price, but no luck so far.
Don't give up on that 20MB drive. Some were RLL drives, and won't necessarily work properly on MFM. I had a bunch of Type 17 40MB drives back in the day, even including some very early IDE drives that were still type 17.
There was also an old MFM-style drive I had, that interestingly enough was a 3.5" format, but refused to work on a PC, until I tried it on an AT with an RLL controller, and then it worked fine (performance sucked and it was stepper-motor (and slow stepper-motor at that (80ms ring a bell))).
Love how the volume label of the 80MB was ST-4096, as if there was possibly any other volume label for it!
Some drives just refuse to work with particular controllers. When the AT came around, and IDE had just come on the scene, (as you likely remember) we used to use drive overlay software to trick the machine into handling drives much larger than the standard 46 types in the CMOS. I remember buying a Maxtor 8.4GB drive, IDE, that GUARANTEED AT compatibility (and was touted as such on the box). Of course, your standard out-of-the-box AT didn't have IDE, so it was a moot point unless you had the right interface, but IDE was a good standard across the board (and served us very well (and some of us still today)) over the years. MFM/RLL drives never guaranteed such compatibility.
I'm not going to even get into re-low-level formatting your old MFM/RLL drives winter and summer to adjust for temperature swings (as much as an old wives' tale as it sounds, it was true in a lot of cases.)
Lastly, to any of those (who have gotten this far in this long, drawn-out comment) who have commented on the sounds of the old hard drives, and how pleasant/how they miss them, I am in full agreement altogether. You used to be able to sit down at your old IBM and listen to that drive hum, and it would get your mind syntaxing correctly and writing programs. Then those ball bearing drives came out and were super noisy (after a few years), and all you could help but hearing was the drone of those drives.
The WD25 is an MFM drive. And even if it was an RLL drive, it would still work fine with an MFM controller (if it was working). RLL drives were simply certified by the manufacturer to be able to handle the higher data density of the RLL format (26 sectors per track instead of 17). Some people would buy RLL drives and then use them with MFM controllers, just to have that extra measure of data security. The ST-225 that normally is in this IBM PC was last formatted in 1998 and still works perfectly, with no errors.
vwestlife ST-225s were bulletproof, and not just in the pejorative term, they practically were.
I never heard of buying RLL over MFM for data security; not doubting you at all, I just never heard of it. Wish we could still do stuff like that today; HDDs fail left and right, and there's nothing like putting "all your eggs in one basket" with a 3 TB hard drive (try reading this comment in a few years and see how much sense it makes).
***** I've experienced that with some old hard drives, but others are much more reliable, such as the ST-225 that I normally have in this IBM PC, which was last formatted in 1998 and still works perfectly. It's probably a very low-mileage drive because its spindle motor is among the quietest I've ever heard from a ST-225.
***** ***** Yes on both counts. I've seen ones that need periodic LL reformatting (hey, it's only 56 5¼" floppies to back up), and other ones that just run forever. In general, it is probably a good idea to follow that old wives' tale of reformatting when the hot and cold weather hits to avoid seek errors.
I think the "mileage" on the drive really does mean everything here. If you've ever opened an old ST-225 and inspected the platters, you can see the wear marks where the heads would normally end up at (for example, just booting to DOS and leaving the machine). You'd also see tracks where the head would end up after loading your favorite program (provided it didn't have much other disk access to do). (Of course, drives then didn't become as fragmented, so data generally stayed put, and there was no auto-defrag like we have in Windows Vista, 7 and 8).
If the heads stay in one spot for too long of a time, they definitely can wear the surface in time. Of course those drives are pushing many many years, and if they were running for a lot of those years it makes sense. Nowadays, Windows thrashes the drive almost constantly so you might never see those marks.
This guy joins TH-cam less than a month ago, has 1 video up, no subscribers, and he's trolling already. They're teaching them too young nowadays!
Holy fuck. 4 AMPS at 12 V?
Cool! I like the sound of that Seagate when it starts up.
This makes me want to dig out my Epson again. I'd be a happy camper if I could get the darn hard drive working without getting parity errors. Last thing I can think to do is try another VGA card.
Parity errors. That reminds me of Dr. Sbaitso.
Alex Helton Ah man, I've had some great times unleashing my anger at Dr. Sbaitso.
***** Some cards are just not meant to be...
My IBM XT is used for one thing, Programming old 2-way radios, namely the Motorola Saber & System Saber model radios. The PC was bought brand new by my dad in 1982 i think it was with a 20Mb HDD... he bought a printer and the dust covers for the whole thing, a couple years later we got a 1200 baud external modem for it. I still have all the bits to it but I just use the PC and its needed parts now.. The printer has long run out of ribbon and the modem is stored away in the parts room with the printer.
The only reason I havent junked it yet is the fact I still have customers who have Saber radios
Just imagine 400 ST-4096 drives in a 48 hour huge burn in oven whizzing away??? The power supplies were huge
Cool video, thanks for sharing these!
WD25 is not Western Digital but rather Winchester Drive or Winchester Disk.
5150 = involuntary psychiatric hold
Your camera mic captures the noise of that old monitor quite well. :)
Love these old PCs lol
Remember to park your drive heads before moving the machine :P
Spinrite will generally find and mark the bad sectors. Its worth giving it an overnight run on that drive.
The WD25 is too far gone to even respond to a park command, and the ST-4096 is auto-park.
vwestlife
I can't think of any voice-coil drives which aren't auto-parking.
vwestlife
Nice job. But I have to admit I would have been curious to see what was on this 30 year old drive before formatting it.
IBM 5150 is the computer i grew up with. it was so awesome! it's crazy how big pirating games was back then, we used to have boxes of floppy disks lol.
its even bigger now lol
really good tutorial. Very informative.
i am planning to buy a IBM 5150 and i was wondering how to install a "new" hard drive.
What I like to do with drives like these is tune them up with Norton Calibrate and use its very extensive verification feature to map out the bad sectors. Don't be surprised, though, if the verification function takes a few days to complete on that 80MB drive. It will automatically write the controller defect table after the process is complete.
Super video from 1981... :)
it's cool how you know all that stuff :)
I hated both Tandy computers I owned, but the CM-11 was such a solid monitor. I miss it.
my first pc was a 286 XT also. It brought back memories...and terrors...Tore it apart then put it back together. My 1st PC where I liked messing with PCs. Back then you had to know alot more than stick it in and turn it on which will sometimes cause bald spots on ur head....from pulling out ur hair...
I have the 44mb version of the Seagate drive. It came from a server and I used it in my 286 until it died and replaced it with a Priam 60mb that was repaired with parts from another dead drive.
My first 8088 PC hard drive was a boxy 5MB unit, can't recall the brand but mos likely it was a Seagate. There was a thumb dial on the drive that one was supposed to spin to park the drive before moving it around; how things have changed.
Cool video! I would LOVE to to get IBM 5150. But they are too expensive on ebay, and I can't find any on Craigslist Denver.
I am LMAO..!! I used to work at Seagate and use dead ST-4096 drives to hold doors open in the engineering and tech labs.. Alan Shugart RIP (CEO) told me he did not like it. So I wrapped the drives up in red foil.. A PERFECT Brick..!!
What a headache to setup but nice to see.
Just got my IBM 5150 working today. Turned out the ROM's were suffering from bit rot. Still a RAM error but it now boots.
I had that exact seagate 80mb drive for a number of years back in the day. It used to be doublespaced to 140mb and have windows 311 on it. When I did tests that involved seeking the head back and forth it would litterly shake the whole computer and floor.. LOL. Memories
old memories long gone .
You probably need a 'matched set' for that IBM XT drive. MFM stuff is picky about controllers.
Watchng this vid.
I really grateful on how data storage technology progressed.
USD 3000 in 1988 would be USD 6778 today. I can actually build perhaps a very good rig with that with maybe tens of Terabytes of storage with that amount.
1701 Error.
The data has gone on an enterprising trek through the stars, where no cluster has gone before...
WOW. My first PC was an IBM8088
with a 10mb HDD,with 650k mem,
running at a blazing 3khz
Seagate ST-4038 (30 MB) is another, presumably earlier, drive which uses a voice coil, but instead of having an actuator arm it uses an actuator carriage (terminology according to a Seagate patent that I can't currently locate) that moves in a straight line across the platters (like the ST-412 and ST-506 do- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST-506#mediaviewer/File:Winchester-Festplatte.jpg).
Thanks for the Upload! Always wanted to hear that Seagate spinup! I bought a Seagate ST4096, it was sold with a broken Resistor, the Seller said it still spun up, but it does not, I think it blew up by the Startup. Do you have a Schematic of the PCB or maybe a Picture of the rear Part of the PCB? As far as I know do these Resistors have a Color Code for the different Types.
Shame about the WD25, but at least the ST-4096 you rescued is good. An 80MB drive is quite decent for one of those old systems - as you said, it was a massive drive for its time.
I have a Seagate ST11 controller and a Seagate ST-238R hard disk.
I can use it under MS-DOS, Windows 3.11, 95, 98 and ME without problems.
But under Windows 2000, XP and 7 it doesn't work, also the controller is not specified in the device manager.
Is there any way to use the RLL controller and hdd under Windows 2000, XP and 7?
I have an ST-4096 (a newer one with black enamel) in my 5150. They have a huge linear actuator and will shake the whole computer during random seek. One hint: If you have one of these and the heads will not unlock, just keep power-cycling it; it will eventually unlock, and should not give you any more trouble as long as it is spun up regularly.
Radical
very cool
Many IBM drives were built by Seagate because IBM had a 35% failure rate right off the production line in Vermont back in 1987
I believe you are referring to the CMI drives that were used in the IBM AT initially. They had a very high initial failure rate.
@@vwestlife CMI..did they put IBM stickers and markings on these drives?? I think they were IBM 0669 drives
Crazy to think about how quickly file sizes increased, eh? Went from 600MB for XP to 4GB for Win7 in a matter of less than a decade! :O
Very nice. Like other folks have said, I like the sound of these old drives as well. I have a 10 MB HDD somewhere around here. The last time I did anything with it, it would spin up but that was it. The only reliable controller I have is RLL, I specified 17 SPT but still got nothing as far as I remember.
On another note, do you have anything running OS/2? I've got 2.1 and Warp but not currently installed on anything. I used OS/2 2.1 for quite a while back in the day but had to abandon it when games became Windows only.
DimensionDude I tried OS/2 years ago, but I don't currently have it installed on anything. Somewhere I have a copy of Microsoft OS/2 1.3 -- that was before Microsoft and IBM "broke up" and MS turned their version of OS/2 into Windows NT.
Hello, do you happen to have a old ide hard drive laying around for a desktop you'd like to part with?
Time to install some old games on the drive. :D
I'm amazed, this seagate hard drive Actually lasted more than a month!
[WHIRRING INTENSIFIES]
I have the exact same drive in my attic :)
I think format only looked for bad sectors in a few critical places, and you had to run scandisk or chkdsk to populate FAT's bad sector map properly. But hey, it was a loooooong time ago, I could be remembering it wrong.
Google doesn't seems to know about "john poole software operating system/5 desktop".
That mfm reminds me of my scsi drives. Loud... very loud...
I think he was talking about warp os at the end. Not sure.
How did You get a HDD Controller working on the 5150?I cant get any to work on my 5160...I got it now since over five Years...
You need an 8-bit ISA card. 16-bit cards won't work.
Also, very early 5150's did not support hard drives in the BIOS (they came with floppies). You may need to update/change your BIOS on the motherboard.
You may be able to store 2 or 3 full songs in WAV format at best.
What's that one the left of the monitor!!...a JVC KD-25, though it does look different a little bit but i have it and i love it xD
It is a Panasonic RS-608D.
Well, i've seen someone mess with some settings and get his 44mb drive working after a 20 error.
I always use old hard drives, never ide to compact flash
You found an ST4096 at the *dump*? Man, the closest I can find around here is the occasional WDx00 series in a Pentium 4 or early Core2 Duo systems. Wish I could get ahold of more MFM disks like these myself.
The IBM disk was probably made by IBM either way. They made disks in Rochester for a good while before it was sold off to Fujitsu I believe.
A good rule of thumb for MFM disks is that they almost always use 17 sectors per track.
SpeedStor 6.03 works well for low-level formatting disks with MS-DOS. It works as early as PC-DOS 2.0 and will automagically fix the occasional bad sector by pure luck. I've got an IBM disk a bit newer than that one (shipped with an AT I think) with 3 defects from the factory, but only one is unusable when formatting with SpeedStor. Using the standard LLF program built into my controller card (DTC 5150XL), it shows up with 4 defects.
MFM disks are "dumb," as in they don't have much (if any) control logic on them. Everything is done through the controller, including detecting track 0 and even stepping the heads.
The controller card was asking if you wanted to attempt to repair the bad sectors it's detected. Mine doesn't ask if you want to repair them, but it does tell you where the errors are.
Does these MFM type drives run self tests on startup or will they stay "silent" until one tries to access them ? My reason for asking is that i have two Seagate ST-412 that spins up just fine and the stepper motor does not seem stuck however i am not able to access them, not even a flash on the LED's
Most drives will do a seek test upon powerup. But some only do a home to track 0. So if they're already at track 0, the drive won't do anything.
i thought you had to enter the drives peramiters into the bios on these old drives?.
Try opening the HDD up to see if it is normal on the inside or damage.
LOL at the end…
I'd put that 80MB drive in a 386SX 16MHz or 20MHz.
operating system 5? john poole software? not heard of either of those? Can't find info on either.
You can download it here: cd.textfiles.com/psl/pslv4nv04/DOS/UT_SYSTM/DESKTOP.ZIP
Seems this goes back to when Seagate was actually a better brand to have around.
Today, you can buy a 12 TB hard drive for about $1800-2000, which is about the same as possibly an 8 TB hard drive for 1300, that being said, the storage space per dollar spent has increased ten million percent (100,000 times) in the last 30 years.
How does one test the data on one of these without an old computer to put it in? surely they make some weird adapter for this?
Not for MFM or RLL. You need to get a controller card for it and a PC that's at least old enough to have ISA expansion slots.
not many dos games on that mount of space
Did you show them (the old HDD) your 128GB micro SD card yet?
That's just cruel, to the drives.
The Dollar Guy ooh or the 256 gb micro SD or a 512 gb SD card
As of 11-30-15 you caould get 40TB of storage for about $1300, compared to 80MB back in the day. Interesting
I shouldn't have watched this, it's making me regret getting rid of my old IBM XT 286 :(
I only got rid of it last year, the hard drive had failed after sitting in the shed for ten years but I could probably have done something with it... oh well.
Dat hdd sound as loude as a airplane
debug c800:5 I think or disk manager for back in the day. Yea mfm or rll and entering in bad sectors.
had 2 flopies and a 10 mhz hd . once i installed the os into the hd , was easioer to run apps .
what drive was that second one, and what controller card did you use? looks like a good setup. Are you running the 63W power supply?
No, it's an aftermarket 200 watt power supply.
1300 USD, ouch
What kind of computer would use ESDI for the hard drive interface?
Some of the early IBM PS/2 systems did.
@@vwestlife Thanks, I have a MiniScribe 9380E, that's why I was wondering. These full height drives are huge!
An 8088 nice I'm still learning about old CPUs but is that made by Intel or Zylog
The 8088 was designed by Intel. AMD and NEC also made them under license from Intel.
In what video did the capacitor blow up?
I didn't have a video camera when it happened. I only talked about it later.
vwestlife Ok, just wondering. Thanks.
I just found my ST-4096 from my 286 when I was a little boy. What can I buy to access this?
An MFM hard drive controller card.
In the most cases you have to get EXACTLY THE SAME controller card which the hard drive was connected to before, because the chance of cooperation between two different low-level-format systems is very, very low.
I seriously think your amazing and will subscribe, but I need help finding a 20mb (10mb at least) hard drive that can work with DOS 1.1, on a possibly 1981 IBM 5150 PC. A lot of what I have seen says that the power supply is too small, and you need to upgrade the bios (and need DOS 2.0), but you are somehow doing it?
Before seeing this I actually saw the WD25, but it says it is for the XT and the 5160.
And I of course saw some Controllers.
If it has the 1982 BIOS revision then it can support a hard drive controller. Have you considered an XT-IDE or XT-CF card? It won't have the cool noises that an old hard drive makes, but will be a lot faster, makes data transfer to and from a modern computer a lot easier, and won't require upgrading to a more powerful power supply.
Would you be willing to sell any of your drives?
have you got an sharp vz 3000 stereo system
No.
I couldn't watch the whole video because i almost fall asleep. :/
You were either watching after a long, hard day, or you have no passion for old computer hardware :)
What happend, will there be a follow-up - or is there a link ?
nice format, now the pc will fly
there is a neat trick that will make it even faster
using vdisk.sys - ramdrive.sys will not work
due to missing ems-xms memory
but you can make a ramdrive with vdisk - like 128k
# config.sys
device=vdisk.sys 128
# add to autoexec.bat
copy c:\command.com d:\ > nul
if exist d:\command.com set comspec=d:\command.com
i donno where is mine gone, i use to have 20mb hard drive lol