Haydn was probably the greatest symphonic composer of all time, simply because he lived long enough to write 104 of them, the majority of which are unbelievable masterpieces...
This is my favorite of his Paris symphonies, its only flaw being the overly repetitive 2nd movement which Marie Antoinette liked, giving this symphony its name. It is one of my 10 favorites among all 104 of Haydn's symphonies. What is so wonderful is that it revives his earlier Stürm & Drang drama but now decorated here in his most elegant manner. If I were only permitted to listen to symphonies by only one composer, that composer would be Joseph Haydn.
La Reine preferred this Paris Symphony...I would have to pick others ahead of it (apologies to her Majesty) ones, as it turns out , without names (which always skews their popularity!) Nos 84, 86 and (especially for me) 87!
@@ArsLyricaHouston I doubt that simplicity is it's main quality, joy, wit and tenderness ( which is one aspect you captured well ) are the main reason why this is still popular.85 and it's mates are the biggest Haydn symphonies and seem to exist in at least 3 versions. As written for Paris with about 70/80 players, "London" size for about 40,and this version which was presumably to play it back home with the formidable force of about 20+. It shouldn't work but it does. The transactions which led to the writing of these were all conducted by post, Haydn didn't visit Paris at all but they were an immediate success. He even got a letter from the King of Prussia asking for the scores, don't know about you but I have never had a letter from the King of anywhere.But as to the point you asked about, my favourite versions of these are the Kurt Sanderling ones, Haydn certainly knew how to use 10 double basses. Even these have their critics, too fast, too slow. For the size of performance you have chosen I would say Mannheim concert 2018. For sheer enthusiasm I would take a look at the first symphony 82 by Norwegian Chamber Orchestra. Yes, the music is over 200 years old but it won't break like a precious antique, this guy taught Beethoven.
@@petercrosland5502 Thank you so much for sharing this insight and context! Your curator here enjoys Norrington's take on Haydn because of the wit and humor with which he approaches the works. Thanks for the recommends and great information.
@@petercrosland5502 Some interesting points, but the following might be helpful. i) You’re quite right to challenge the use of the word ‘simplicity’; anyone suggesting that is a key characteristic of any of the ‘Paris’ symphonies is missing more than they are hearing. ii) Marc Vignal - who is absolutely the last word on music in Paris during this period and on the Concert spirituel and Haydn in particular - states that the total maximum complement of players was 67 (some of whom would not have been used, most obviously the clarinets). The orchestra of the Concert de La Loge Olympique would have been about 60 when performing Haydn’s symphonies 82-87 in Paris. (Never seen your larger number quoted anywhere; source ?). The size of the orchestra in London during Haydn’s first visit - the 1791 and 1792 seasons - was 40; during the second visit - for the 1794 and 1795 seasons - it had crept over 60. If Haydn had performed any of these symphonies at Esztehaza, his own orchestra would have numbered 24. There are not three - or any other number - of ‘versions’ of this or any other symphony; symphonies all across Europe were played with the number of musicians available locally, and these numbers could vary enormously, ranging from one or two violins per part, up to the large number of basses you mentioned in your post. iii) Frederick William II of Prussia was an important musical patron of the time, Haydn’s Opus 50 string quartets are dedicated to him, and he received similar dedications most notably from Mozart and Boccherini. iv) Agree completely about the fine performance of Symphony 82 you mention, I like very much; well worth seeking out. v) ‘…this guy taught Beethoven’; suggesting that Haydn was Beethoven’s teacher really is misleading. Haydn taught Beethoven counterpoint - a strict musical grammar* - not free composition (though they undoubtedly discussed this); these lessons lasted - on and off - just 14 months from Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna in November 1792 until Haydn’s departure for his second trip to England in January 1794. The lessons were not successful: Beethoven famously declared the he ‘…learned nothing from Haydn’ and pointedly refused Haydn’s request to add ‘Pupil of Haydn’ to the dedication to his former *counterpoint* teacher of the piano sonatas Opus 2 published in 1796. (Similar care needs to be taken when referring to Salieri as ‘Beethoven’s teacher’ as those lessons too were focussed entirely on a single area - Italian vocal music ie opera). Otherwise, an interesting post - hope there’s something of value in my reply. * In strict English grammar, the student would be taught that the split infinitive is a breach of the rules; probably the best-known example of all is Captain Kirk in the opening of the original Star Trek series declaring that his mission was ‘…to boldly go…’, he should of course - correcting the grammatical faux pas - have said ‘to go boldly’ and corrected the most infamous split infinitive in the English language. Another example would be the proscription on ending a sentence with a preposition: That’s the sort of language I won’t put up *with;* Correctly it should be: That’s the sort of language up with which I will not put. This however neatly illustrates the nonsense of some rules sometimes and was something which Haydn did teach Beethoven, Haydn determined that he was as well qualified to determine the validity of rules as anyone, and said that music should not be fettered by them. This chat about English grammar puts into perspective Haydn’s role in teaching Beethoven musical grammar ie the rules of counterpoint. In musical terms, this is what Haydn was teaching Beethoven, so for example, rules about split infinitives or prepositions would become rules about consecutive fifths or parallel fifths/octaves.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Hello Elaine, nice to hear from you again. I have thought about this since I made the original comment. After another couple of views I think that the main problem is that they have managed to suck most of the joy out of the piece, not sure how they managed that. I was wondering how he composed this, from what you said it seems he composed it for small orchestra and posted an upscaled version to Paris - and as you said, left everybody else.to used the forces at their disposal.
Haydn was probably the greatest symphonic composer of all time, simply because he lived long enough to write 104 of them, the majority of which are unbelievable masterpieces...
❤поекрасная симфонтя❤браво Гайдн и оркестр❤
Brilliant! So much better with 18th-century instrumentation, wonderful intimate sound, with great clarity...
Very Good performance!!! ❤
This is my favorite of his Paris symphonies, its only flaw being the overly repetitive 2nd movement which Marie Antoinette liked, giving this symphony its name. It is one of my 10 favorites among all 104 of Haydn's symphonies. What is so wonderful is that it revives his earlier Stürm & Drang drama but now decorated here in his most elegant manner. If I were only permitted to listen to symphonies by only one composer, that composer would be Joseph Haydn.
The second movement is by design "repetitive" because it is a set of theme and variations.
Congratulations
What a brilliant performance! They honor the wit and joy of Haydn’s musical soul. Bravissimo!
Quite Brilliant and Beautiful!!! Haydn Rules!!! YES!!! May God Bless y'all Richly and Jesus Peace!!! Merry Christmas yall!!! ❤😮😂🎉
Joyful!!! YES!!! ❤🎉
Great enjoyable performance!
Played this at my orchestra
La Reine preferred this Paris Symphony...I would have to pick others ahead of it (apologies to her Majesty) ones, as it turns out , without names (which always skews their popularity!) Nos 84, 86 and (especially for me) 87!
Haydn no. 85 in b flat was one of Marie Antoinette’s favorite songs
Ah, that is so interesting!
I am like a poor man who has found a golden coin.it's golden coin
bookmarks:
24:29
25:39
C'est quoi cette mode de jouer debout ? Visuellement on perd l'unité de l'orchestre.
Oui, Vous avez raison!
Listen out for 22.10- someone's loudly eating an apple! :)
It looks more like a coughing, no ?
Well, it's one way of looking at it...
Haydn can be tricky in its simplicity. Do you have favorite recordings of this piece?
@@ArsLyricaHouston
I doubt that simplicity is it's main quality, joy, wit and tenderness ( which is one aspect you captured well ) are the main reason why this is still popular.85 and it's mates are the biggest Haydn symphonies and seem to exist in at least 3 versions. As written for Paris with about 70/80 players, "London" size for about 40,and this version which was presumably to play it back home with the formidable force of about 20+. It shouldn't work but it does. The transactions which led to the writing of these were all conducted by post, Haydn didn't visit Paris at all but they were an immediate success. He even got a letter from the King of Prussia asking for the scores, don't know about you but I have never had a letter from the King of anywhere.But as to the point you asked about, my favourite versions of these are the Kurt Sanderling ones, Haydn certainly knew how to use 10 double basses. Even these have their critics, too fast, too slow. For the size of performance you have chosen I would say Mannheim concert 2018. For sheer enthusiasm I would take a look at the first symphony 82 by Norwegian Chamber Orchestra.
Yes, the music is over 200 years old but it won't break like a precious antique, this guy taught Beethoven.
@@petercrosland5502 Thank you so much for sharing this insight and context! Your curator here enjoys Norrington's take on Haydn because of the wit and humor with which he approaches the works. Thanks for the recommends and great information.
@@petercrosland5502
Some interesting points, but the following might be helpful.
i) You’re quite right to challenge the use of the word ‘simplicity’; anyone suggesting that is a key characteristic of any of the ‘Paris’ symphonies is missing more than they are hearing.
ii) Marc Vignal - who is absolutely the last word on music in Paris during this period and on the Concert spirituel and Haydn in particular - states that the total maximum complement of players was 67 (some of whom would not have been used, most obviously the clarinets).
The orchestra of the Concert de La Loge Olympique would have been about 60 when performing Haydn’s symphonies 82-87 in Paris.
(Never seen your larger number quoted anywhere; source ?).
The size of the orchestra in London during Haydn’s first visit - the 1791 and 1792 seasons - was 40; during the second visit - for the 1794 and 1795 seasons - it had crept over 60.
If Haydn had performed any of these symphonies at Esztehaza, his own orchestra would have numbered 24.
There are not three - or any other number - of ‘versions’ of this or any other symphony; symphonies all across Europe were played with the number of musicians available locally, and these numbers could vary enormously, ranging from one or two violins per part, up to the large number of basses you mentioned in your post.
iii) Frederick William II of Prussia was an important musical patron of the time, Haydn’s Opus 50 string quartets are dedicated to him, and he received similar dedications most notably from Mozart and Boccherini.
iv) Agree completely about the fine performance of Symphony 82 you mention, I like very much; well worth seeking out.
v) ‘…this guy taught Beethoven’; suggesting that Haydn was Beethoven’s teacher really is misleading.
Haydn taught Beethoven counterpoint - a strict musical grammar* - not free composition (though they undoubtedly discussed this); these lessons lasted - on and off - just 14 months from Beethoven’s arrival in Vienna in November 1792 until Haydn’s departure for his second trip to England in January 1794.
The lessons were not successful: Beethoven famously declared the he ‘…learned nothing from Haydn’ and pointedly refused Haydn’s request to add ‘Pupil of Haydn’ to the dedication to his former *counterpoint* teacher of the piano sonatas Opus 2 published in 1796.
(Similar care needs to be taken when referring to Salieri as ‘Beethoven’s teacher’ as those lessons too were focussed entirely on a single area - Italian vocal music ie opera).
Otherwise, an interesting post - hope there’s something of value in my reply.
* In strict English grammar, the student would be taught that the split infinitive is a breach of the rules; probably the best-known example of all is Captain Kirk in the opening of the original Star Trek series declaring that his mission was ‘…to boldly go…’, he should of course - correcting the grammatical faux pas - have said ‘to go boldly’ and corrected the most infamous split infinitive in the English language.
Another example would be the proscription on ending a sentence with a preposition:
That’s the sort of language I won’t put up *with;*
Correctly it should be:
That’s the sort of language up with which I will not put.
This however neatly illustrates the nonsense of some rules sometimes and was something which Haydn did teach Beethoven, Haydn determined that he was as well qualified to determine the validity of rules as anyone, and said that music should not be fettered by them.
This chat about English grammar puts into perspective Haydn’s role in teaching Beethoven musical grammar ie the rules of counterpoint.
In musical terms, this is what Haydn was teaching Beethoven, so for example, rules about split infinitives or prepositions would become rules about consecutive fifths or parallel fifths/octaves.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Hello Elaine, nice to hear from you again. I have thought about this since I made the original comment. After another couple of views I think that the main problem is that they have managed to suck most of the joy out of the piece, not sure how they managed that. I was wondering how he composed this, from what you said it seems he composed it for small orchestra and posted an upscaled version to Paris - and as you said, left everybody else.to used the forces at their disposal.