What about when Saruman took it and imprisoned him on top of the tower of Orthanc? It's obvious that the staff is a "power focus" that Gandalf CAN make a new version of at will. This can also be surmised from the fact that his staff was destroyed by Saron in Gal Dalgur yet he had another one later at the battle of the five armies.
I feel like the Valar had nothing to do with Gandalfs spirit more so he was reborn by Illuvatar directly, it states he passed out of space and time which kind of hints at him completly being removed from the entire world.
Yes he was send back by Eru. I just speculated if he maybe went to the halls of Mandos before Eru called him. I think there you can argue, that he did not enter the halls of Mandos too.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yea I am also willing to bet his new powers, white staff and raiment were personally granted to him by Eru as well. So maybe this time he became an emissary of Eru as opposed to the Valar since Eru brought him back?
Gandalf staffs 1. His own (burned by Sauron) 2. He Gets radagast (Saruman steals it) 3. He gets it from Elrond and Galadriel in Rivendell (schatterd when he Fall in moria) 4. Gandalf the white (destroyed by witch king) 5. Gets from galadriel and elrond Again (goes to undieng lands) 4.
That is all from the films and none of it actually happened except the Moria bit. In the books they barely mention his staff. The same one he presumably had throughout The Hobbit he has when Saruman imprisons him and he escapes Orthanc with it. It breaks on the Bridge of Khazad Dum when he breaks the bridge. When next we meet him it just states he has a staff, presumably given to him by Galadriel when he is clothed in white after being sent back. The Witch-king doesn't destroy it at all and presumably this is the one that he takes to the Undying Lands at the end of the books.
The staff is a tool. It has no power of its own, but helps the wizard focus his power, in much the same way as a wrench helps a mechanic turn a bolt, or a brush helps an artist paint a canvas. Sure, in theory one could do the same job without it, but it would be far more difficult.
I feel the same, but I think they also use the staff to disguise the use of power. People believe the staff has some magic power, but it is really them using more of their actual power with an “excuse” on why they can do it.
i always wondered if the reborn Gandalf found Glamdring and Narya at hand and grasped them when he was retrieved by Gwaihir. One can only deduce so... but maybe best to not overthink those details.
As a wizard I feel like weighing in on this. A staff is a useful tool for many reasons. In the movies it is mostly used as a weapon but it is much more accurate to think of it as a tool, even if it is great for clobbering. The thing it gets used the most for is a portable place to hang herbs while they dry, Gandalf had tobacco, and other things that were likely dried for use hanging from his staff. As far as for support, besides walking a staff is great for stabilization while bathing in a current, guiding a raft in shallow water, or as a balancing weight on a narrow passage. Some staffs are crafted incorporating items that energy, luck, or other things can be stored in like a trickle charger for a battery, only to be released when it is needed. To make your own staff: Choose a wood that has the properties you would like to see in your self on your travels. Find the tree, select and remove a branch, then strip the bark. On ariverside, dig a trench large enough to bed the branch in the shallows, and anchor it with rocks, leave it for one moon cycle then retrieve it. Build a fire and add dry leaves form the tree the branch originated from. Turn the branch in the smoke until it dries, focussing the energy you wish it to embody, being patient and grounded. Once dry, find as salt rich soil as possable, and bury it for one moon cycle. Retrieve it, clean it, decorate it using only metals, plant matter, animal products, or other natural items. Nothing store bought, no adhesive that you didn't make your self from items you collect from nature. Tie knots instead it's easier. Last step: give it a name, one you have never heard attached to any other thing is best.
@@merlin4real I'm a born again Christian prophet so I tend to stick bible based practices like hoodoo and southern conjure folk magic. But recently I've begun practicing primitive shamanism. Nice to meet another practitioner.
Yes this was a question I got a lot and I thought it was a fun topic to cover. I should have mentioned that in the books Gandalf only loses his staff once though, while in the films he loses it all the time.
I share your interpretation on the Istari and their staves: a symbol of authority from the west, not necessarily needed to perform "magic" but used nonetheless as a statement that the power used is in accordance to their mission. A statement so powerful that when it's clearly misused, like Saruman did, the staff needs to be broken and the member expelled. And furthermore, again as we see with Saruman, a total rejection from the powers in Aman in case of death. Great video, as always. Thank you!
@@ThePhilosophersGames hey the dark prophet of youtube also has a staff. Hes gonna do a real life lord of the rings movie soon. Click me to see some of his older writing
Lets clear one thing Gandalf when he slayed the balrog he died, and he never went to aman, he went to the hall of illuvatar, becasue only hes got the power over life and death. and illuvatar him self sent him back to middle earth. not the valar.
Yes he definitely was sent back by Eru. I worded that very carefully, because I speculated that he might have entered the Halls of Mandos first and then "to" Eru, but after further looking into the texts, I would agree, he almost certain did not go there.
yet, we know the Valar could do something about death, since Luthien "died" and was sent back by them, albeit with Iluvatar's permission, though I don't think it was explicit.
I honestly was beginning to really wonder this myself recently, and I find it awesome that this video popped up on my notifications just in time!!!! I find it quite interesting (and quite brilliant) that the staffs of The Istari were more symbolic among other small things then actually being objects to practice Magic through (though they of course can still do that if the Istari wanted their own staffs to of course as shown in this video). It really beings an interesting dynamic to them imo, and is one of the main reasons why the "Wizards" of Middle-Earth are my most favorite out of all of Fantasy Fiction! :)
Yes, I think it's an interesting topic too. I maybe could have went through all scenes, when Gandalf uses his staff, but it would not change my point I guess (I also plan to make that for another video about magic, that I will make at some point). I really like how Tolkien handles magic in general in his works. It's quite subtle and well implemented into his world. It has some thought behind it, but also offers enough mystery.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I couldn't agree more! Tolkien's use of magic really is quite unique and subtle and is brilliantly implemented into his world, cannot wait to see your video on it! :)
This one was a bit rushed, but I had some technical difficulties and voice recording wasn't really smooth. I hope you still enjoy it :) Please post new lore questions, if you like ^^ Also I sometimes use the British pronunciation of "staff" and sometimes the US one, sadly I noticed too late =/ To be fair this stuff is also confusing for a not native speaker :P
Since you encourage asking lore questions, I would like to take advantage of it and propose a topic which has been bothering me for quite sometime: Why do the elves in Middle Earth have so few children? We all know about seven sons of Feanor but apart from that it has been one to three sons or daughters at the most. Isn't there simply not enough souls in the halls of Mandos or do the elves wish to be reborn in Aman instead of Middle Earth? Or do they have fertility problems? :) Thanks for your time and effort which you put in making videos for this channel. I really enjoy them and your philosophical approach to Tolkien's work.
No problem and thank you for watching. According to the History of Middle-earth books (mainly Morgoth's Ring if I recall correctly) the elves have something like different life cycles. In their first they marry and get children at some point and then this desire to have children goes away and they enter their second where they probably focus on greater things and third where they are getting "old", e.g. male elves can have a beard like Círdan. Usually they have like 2-5 children in this first cycle and 7 with Finwë (who took a new wife, after his first wife "died" when she gave birth to his first son Fëanor (her spirit was weary and a bit after giving birth left her body)) was quite an exception among elves. This is also debated at length in Morgoth's Ring. Another component could be, that they had no health issues, well developed societies and were basically immortal. We see a comparable phenomenon in our world too. The more developed a country is and the older people get on average there, the smaller is the birthrate. There might be some cultural differences too, but Japan or e.g. Germany have very low birthrates. People become parents quite late compared too 50-70 years ago. I think this phenomenon could apply to elves too. They have all the time and focus on all kind of other things of self fulfillment, so that having children is not a priority (e.g. for their species to survive). And probably when they get close to their second life cycle, it's too late. And they only have few or no children. They probably also don't need that many children, because elves are around for some time ^^ At some point Aman would be over populated.
That is ofc correct, but Glorfindel is also on a mission coming from Aman (like Gandalf) and he is not established in Middle-earth too. In a sense he is just a "lone ranger" or a "guest" in Middle-earth too. Galadriel had her own realm and he knew where to find her and that she could help him, giving him cloth and a new staff.
I found the discussion of Gandalf and his sojourn in Lothlorien very inspiring and insightful. Related to the knowledge of the Wise...how did Galadriel know that she must send Gwaihir to find him? The last she had heard that we read, he had fallen into darkness. She must have gotten word somehow from Aman? What was her relationship to Aman now that she renounced the Ring? It might be a good video to trace Galadriel and her relationship to the Valar...her childhood, her names, her betrayal by Feanor, her desire for her own kingdom...and her restoration to the Blessed Realm. It might be a longer video, but so worth it!! I agree with what you say about the staves as symbols of authority. And I believe they are conduits of that authority, used to conduct and direct the power of their owner...whether in small ways, like the light, or greater, as in conflict. I’m only halfway through this video so maybe you have made this point by the time I am through.
Im a bit rusty on Tolkien, so apologies if im stupid. The Mirror of Galadriel shows many things, though it wouldn't tell her directly she must have been able to divine that Gandalf went into a dark place from which he did not return. She knew of Gandalf's purpose, of Saruman's corruption, and what might happen. I've always been confused by Saruman the White maintaining his position after Sauron corrupted him.
WeedyistFlame420 Great point about the Mirror. It may have shown her that he had returned and perhaps even where he was so she could send Gwaihir after him. What do you mean about Saruman retaining his position after being corrupted?
This makes sense and answers the first question I had when watching The Fellowship of the Ring on film: when Gandalf escapes the roof of Orthanc astride Gwaihir, "How did he get another staff if Saruman took his at the end of their wizard duel?". A friend said "he probably just had a bunch of spares lying around" but a better answer is: "Doesn't matter, staff doesn't do anything". In fact, across the films Gandalf loses his staff more often than Jedi lose their lightsabers. Sauron disintegrates his staff in the 3rd Hobbit film, as does the Witch King of Angmar in Return of the King. After each encounter he appears again with a new staff. Sometimes a tree branch is just a branch?
Yes maybe should have included it, but in the book he only loses his staff once in Moria (it shatters when he hits the bridge with it, which funnily enough does not happen in the film ^^). After that he gets a new one. But e.g. in Orthanc he is imprisoned by Saruman and his guards, but Gandalf keeps his staff. In the films he loses them constantly (as you said). So he seems to have some spare staffs there, but I have no lore explanation for it ^^ He only gets one new staff in Lothlórien, when Gwaihir flies him there after he awakes as Gandalf the White.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Well if Saruman lets him keep it in the book it's another indication that it's not actually a threat. Does Wormtongue insist they "get the Wizard's staff!" in the book?
I certainly wasn't expecting to see my name called out when I clicked this video XD very nicely put video too. I really like your take on it and I agree on your points too. This is what I really love about the Middle Earth series, as even though so much is explained, it still allows for so much personal interpretation on certain parts
Thank you, happy you liked it :) It also was a good question and even before I started the vote for the topics, I knew that I would combine those questions. A perfect fit. Yes agreed. It generates some mystery, which is interesting for the reader and fits into the field of "mythology", but also encourages to make your own thoughts (it's also interesting that I answered something quite similar to another comment just a few minutes ago ^^).
in the book Saruman did not take it. In Frodo's vision at Tom Bombadils's house of Gandalf escaping from Isengard, he sees his staff. For the film we don't know.
I enjoyed your video...I even Subscribed... I wanted to add that I look at the Staffs as a 'Lens'. A object in order to 'Focus' the Wizards Power. They still have power with out them but the Staff helps them concentrate their power better...
Thank you, happy you liked it and that you even subbed ^^ Much appreciated :) Yes this theory I got a few times here in the comments. It could be like a lens. Definitely a valid theory.
You mentioned how the staffs are symbol of authority. Also notice how the Kings of Numenor are always described as inheriting or taking control of a sceptre, never a crown.
Another fantastic video. I love the passion and quality of analysis. The interesting, friendly conversations that are sparked are also great to read. Once I'm on summer holiday, I am absolutely 100% going to read the books XD. Thank you so much for these videos ThePhilosophersGames. All the best man! Can anyone suggest where to start? I am assuming The Silmarillion?
Thank you for you kind words :) I'm always happy, when people enjoy my videos. The Silmarillion can be a tough read. I would say starting with The Lord of the Ring and The Hobbit is the best way. You will notice that The Hobbit feels a bit different compared to LotR, because originally it was not part of the LotR universe, but Tolkien changed this with the Second Edition (some small changes here and there). So that's something to keep in mind. After those I think it's the LotR Appendices (at least the lore ones) and then the Silmarillion and then maybe Unfinished Tales. I originally used the Silmarillion as some kind of Compendium to understand the lore of LotR and to find answers for my lore questions. It looks like a short book, but the information is so condensed in it, it's like a history book. After all of this you can also check the 12 History of Middle-earth books if you still hadn't enough ^^ They are about the creation process of the books (esp. the Silmarillion) and discuss Tolkien's later notes and ideas + special cases. It's imo difficult to define what's canon and what's not with them. I hope that helps ^^
What is most commonly thought of as "magic" in fantasy to most other things like harry potter or D&D is very different in Tolkien's Legendarium, which makes it all the better in my opinion. Thank you for this great video, I will show my buddies so they can learn more.
Agreed magic in Tolkien's work is really different, which I like a lot. It's quite interesting, that while all the great works you listed are definitely inspired by Tolkien to some degree, none of them took too much inspiration in the nature of magic (maybe in terminology). No problem, thank you too for watching, commenting and recommending my content ^^
my general take on the staffs are that they are more props than useful, if you pay close attention it is the crystal Gandalf attaches to the staff that grants light not the staff itself
I think the staff's maybe help them to channel their powers while in their current form. Because if it was just a symbol then it wouldnt look like they were using the staff to perform magic like expelling saruman from theoden, shaft of light against nazgul, light etc. At least in the film's anyway and saruman was powerless magically speaking in the books during the scouring of the shire after his staff had beem broken...
He still had some power after Gandalf broke his staff. I think it was Eru who gave Gandalf the White the authority to "break his staff". In this Saruman lost his authority, visible for all. All could see how his staff broke. How can he be powerful if Gandalf just breaks what is in his hands by speaking some words. I think the staffs were more like tools. Maybe they also helped the Istari to channel some power or express their authority over parts of the world, but as explained Gandalf was still able to fight a Balrog for several days without it. The fight between Gandalf and Saruman is also not not in the books, but I think it works better visually esp. with the staffs.
Loth Lorien was supposed to be the place where the fey realm met the material world. At least, this was the case for Titania, and the Queen of Air and Darkness were concerned. The wizard's staff is typically used as a magical focus. Much like the wands in the Potter series.
Great video as usual! I'm looking forward to your top gaming list video if you choose to make it. There have been so many great games that came out this past year, and I would be fascinated to get your take on them. Lore question for you: We know that the Ishtari and Balrogs (and Eagles) are Maiar. Are there other Maiar on Middle Earth as well? Can we assume that lesser spirits are also from Aman?
Thank you :) Yes, this year was insane and sadly I didn't play too many games (I also play on PC only), still happy to hear that some people enjoy my gaming content, too! Also great question. I wrote it down into my notes ^^
Actually, when Gandalf gets in the first fight with Saruman he already loses his staff. When he is hold captive on top of Isengard he does not have the staff, neither does he when he flies of on his eagle, but then when they are having the council in Rivendell his staff is suddenly back in his arms...
Yes. He has probably multiple of them (they also look different in some scenes). Can't remember how it was in the books. There Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Possible that Saruman still took it away from him.
Good video my dude. What about a video concerning the mortal beings who depart for Valinor at the end of the third age? I'd like to know your thoughts on whether Bilbo/Frodo/Samwise/Gimli have a fate apart from the rest of their kin? Do they live forever, or eventually pass to the Halls of Mandos?
Thank you :) I have a somewhat related video: th-cam.com/video/bI7AZbwkjvE/w-d-xo.html No I don't think that they have a different fate or become immortal. They will die at some point and follow the fate of their people. (Hobbits are counted towards Men). It's just a special honour for them to go to Aman and heal from their burdens. Gimli is an interesting case, because Dwarves are probably not banned from Aman (which is different for Men).
As I recall, Gandalf lost four staffs in the Peter Jackson movies...3 in the LOTR and one destroyed by Sauron in The Hobbit part 2. I don't think these power staffs got warranties,right?
I know he loses his staff in Fellowship, and then again against the Witch King in Return of the King, so that's twice...but when was the third time he lost it in the LOTR trilogy?
@@ThePhilosophersGames in my mind the eagle took him directly to Galadriel and she knew he was coming anyway because she the Lady of the Wood and she had some robes ready lol
I think the staff was simlar to a wand a wand isnt the source of power but its a object that allows them to use their powers it isnt the source of their magic ,it just helps them cast spells and use their powers
The staves were tools to focus the will of Illuvatar. Surprised you didn’t mention Wyrmtongues disdain when discovering the House guards of Rohan let Gandalf in the throne room with his staff.
I think that's a weird one, because the books imply that Théoden was poisoned by Gríma too. Ofc th staff is mentioned, but it still represents his authority and is a useful tool.
Gandalf was allowed entrance like the others but without their weapons. Clearly Wyrmtongue considered the staff as dangerous as the rest of the company’s arsenal
How did Gandalf get his staff back when he escaped Orthanc? Saruman took it from him before he was imprisoned on top of the tower. His new one was literally an exact replica or the same staff somehow. Seems like Gandalf has a few backups lying around.
I sadly don't have a very interensting answer. In the book Saruman does not take Gandalf's staff away. So he does not lose it here. In the films - as you say - he seems to have several backup staffs ^^
I always believed Gandalf got a new staff made for him by elves since they may have been able to help strengthen the magic but also because it greatly resembled Elvin structures (like the white and rounded roves or canopies in Rivendell).
Regardless of how much power it has, it is something that had to be crafted. The most knowedgeable person in every art/knowledge of the valar, by lore, is Galadriel. This would include crafting of powerful items including her mirror. So whether it was an artifact of great power, or an item to channel power through, Galadriel would be one of the few people in all of middle earth, if not the only one, who could craft such an item.
I don't recall the staff being used at all in Gondor -- the rescue of Faramir scene told of light stabbing upward from his upraised hand and during the confrontation with the Witch King at the gate no weapon was indicated. I think he had grown beyond these props by then.
Yes good point. The staff is definitely mentioned less. Here's the passage again from the Siege of Gondor: "One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away"
I can't imagine Gandalf jumping from Isengards summit, turning back and asking Saruman, "Before I go, I'm going to need my shit back so...?" This was what I wanted answered.
Great Video :D! I for one would like to see some video game videos from you. I usually find you have a nice perspective on them. I did remember Gandalf losing his staff but it never crossed my mind to question how he got it back. He's my favorite character next to Faramir so I chalked it up to him just being (for lack of a better term) a general bad ass. Also I don't expect a video on this because it's honestly far too silly but do you think since the giant eagle mentioned that Gandalf felt weightless, that he can wal on top of the snow without falling through it like Legolas?
Thank you :) Also happy you enjoy my gaming related videos, I like making them too. Agreed I would have not thought about the question, but when I red it, I thought not a bad topic at all, so i made the video ^^ That also an interesting question. I would say yes. Gwaihir also says, that the sun shines through him: ‘‘A burden you have been,’’ he answered, ‘‘but not so now. Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.’’
You would be incorrect I’m assuming that the staff is only a symbol. After Saruman’s staff is broken, he can no longer use his magical powers. He still retained his persuasive nature but not his magic. Because if this I think it is clear that the staves, whole perhaps not magical, must be at least conduits of their power. Gandalf defeats the Balrog without his, but doing so essentially burns out his body
Isn't this a contradiction? > After Saruman’s staff is broken, he can no longer use his magical powers. > Gandalf defeats the Balrog without his, but doing so essentially burns out his body Why should there be other rules for Gandalf? "Burns out his body" is also your interpretation of what happens. Quote from LotR: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell." This is all we know. But if the staff is needed, why can he defeat a Balrog? We can even read: Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. So Gandalf not having power without his staff makes no sense. It's factually wrong. So what's with Saruman? How about Saruman can't use his power because he was officially expelled from the order by Gandalf the White who was sent back by Eru himself? The staff was for sure convenient. Maybe even to "channel" power, but it was definitely not necessary for at least Gandalf. There is no greater magical deed than fighting a Balrog for 10 days and killing it (without his staff).
@@ThePhilosophersGames The point concerning a lack of supporting textual evidence for Gandalf burning himself out without his staff is firmly conceded. But bear in mind that Saruman losing his power because he was cast from the order also has no textual evidence. The one correlating factor is the loss of his staff. As a counter point, however, Gandalf DID possess the Ring of Fire, Narya. This could explain why he was able to call upon lightning to strike the Balrog. After all, Gandalf was known for his affinity with fire and lights. His possession of Narya could have influenced this and even allowed him greater control. I know that Elrond said The Three "were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power" but that may not mean they cannot be used to enhance the wearer's power in that regard.
The question isn't how he got his staff after Moria, the question is (in the movie) how he gets it back after his imprisonment on Orthanc, because Saruman has taken it away from him. In the book it's not an issue, because he never loses it in the first place. After Moria, the Elves in Lothlorien make him a new staff, so that's never even a question.
Yes, in the books, Saruman does not take away Gandalf's staff, when he is imprisoned on the top of Orthanc. In the films he has (I think) 2 different staffs as Gandalf the Grey. One with his pipe on it (but no crystal) and then the one with the crystal (which also appears in the Hobbit if I recall correctly).
losthor1zon he has two different staffs in FOTR. The one he loses to Saruman and the one he replaces the previous one with. They’re very similar looking but if you look closely you can see they’re two different objects. You’re right though, he does place the crystal in the staff to illuminate the mines of Moria.
"There i lay, staring upward. While the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a lifeage of the earth." Gimli: [spits on the ground] I'd say that you were gone for a month, give or take a couple of days. Did you bring me a shiny axe? 😂😂😂
However, (at least in the movies) Grima gets upset in The Two Towers when they did not take Gandalf's staff, making it appear that he needs to use it as a catalyst for his power... Gandalf and Saruman fought and when he lost his staff to Saruman, he was no longer able to fight back... Saurman did not attack once his staff was broken... when the Witch King broke the new staff, Gandalf only used his sword from that point and no magic..... not once did they show an actual power being performed without his staff - in the movies... have not read all of the books
That is true, but what does Wormtongue know? He may know it has some use, but I think Gandalf without it defeating a Balrog, a being so powerful that it could end the most powerful Dwarf Kingdom in History alone, is a pretty good argument ^^
Am I the only one that was picturing the Witch King moment from the movies when reading the title?(I know, it was a movie goof and not a 'canon' moment)
In the extended Return of the King, Gandalf's staff was destroyed by the Witch King in the battle of Minas Tirith. Later, he had it back. I don't recall if this happened in the book.
Yes it's only in the extended version and also one of the few changes I don't really understand. It's not in the book (the Witchking hears Rohan's army arriving and leaves Gandalf be). Gandalf actually only loses his staff once in the book and that is in Moria, where it shatters, when he destroys the bridge with the Balrog on it. Interestingly the staff does not shatter in the film ^^
The answer is pretty boring ^^ In the books he did not lose it in Orthanc and Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Saruman and I assume his guards (it's just stated "they") took Gandalf to the top of Orthanc over a narrow stair, where he was imprisoned. The vision/dream Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house indicates, that Gandalf had indeed still his staff on top of Orthanc (it's described in the vision/dream). How he gets it back in the film nobody knows though ^^
ThePhilosophersGames he didn’t get his staff back in the film, he just got a new one. They look kinda similar but if you look closely you can see they’re very different.
But in some video it was said that the balrog did not die. Not sure if that was referring to the undying lands also, but the balrog just wont get back from there or something.
In the book, Gandalf’s staff shatters not long before he dies, in the movie Saroman’s staff shatters not long before he dies. I personally think their staves are tied to their life force in some way.
I think you are most likely right about the wizards' staves being symbols of their Istari status and not actual sources of power, but I can't help but notice a few contradictions to that theory in the books, ignoring movie/game depictions. Gandalf does use his staff while breaking the Bridge of Khazad-dum, which is possibly his greatest display of magical power throughout the series. And if he did need his staff to wield his full power he could still have defeated the Balrog; Gandalf states in The White Rider that the Balrog's fire was extinguished by the water they fell in. This sounds metaphorical but it could be that being submerged in water does physically weaken Balrogs. Gandalf without his staff and a Balrog without access to its power over fire may be on roughly equal terms. Later on, Saruman does seem rather powerless after losing his staff; he still has the power of his voice, but that isn't explicitly magical (more like a synergy between his magic and persuasive personality) and even that power seems diminished. On the other hand, what I would consider Gandalf's greatest or second-greatest display of magic would be when he drives multiple Nazgul away from Minas Tirith. He does so by blasting them with beams of white light; the movie shows this beam emanating from his staff, but the book says that the beam came from the palm of his raised hand. I think this is one of those things that Tolkien left intentionally ambiguous in order to leave us free to wonder about it.
Yes agreed. I could imagine too that the staffs are just there to create mystery (so we can spin our own imagination around this) and the feeling of mythology. Also thank you for your detailed comment :)
haha no problem :) Happy you found your way to my channel ^^ I'm actually surprised that I get a lot of attention right now. Subscriber rate has liked doubled this month
interestingly it seems in the book Saruman did not take his staff, when he imprisoned Gandalf. There's a hint in a dream/vision of Frodo (I think in Tom Bombadil's house), where Frodo sees Gandalf escape, but here he has his staff. The films seem not explain how he got it back though, but Gandalf seems to have some spare staffs ^^
Tolkien was a Catholic and if anyone grew up as a traditional Catholic they would understand all these symbols throughout the books probably a little better than others. Gandolf is like a Bishop, the staff his crozier. If you notice he mimics a Bishop in soo many ways. Giving advice to guide, and like a Bishop, he crowns the King. Also leading the requiem ( funeral ) of Thorin the dwarf king, etc.
Yes good point. Ofc Gandalf also has many similarities to e.g. Odin (and Tolkien was very familiar with the mythology too). He definitely had multiple inspirations.
Why do you presume that Gandalf went to Aman after he died atop Celebdil? Tolkien talks about this in Letter #156 and says the Valar had nothing to do with his return. "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'." Passing out of thought and time indicates that he left Eä completely, where Eru then enhanced and returned him to the the World.
Good question, difficult to answer :D Quote from LotR, The White Rider: Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority (because he is the only one who could have done this), but usually Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in other examples of "re-embodiment". Esp. since in this description his "task" is explicitly mentioned, which he received from the Valar (as stated in the letter). The Valar were ofc close to Eru and his will, so why should he not have returned to Aman? The latter talks more about the authority. When Saruman dies, we can read in LotR: For a moment it wavered, looking *to the West* ; but out of *the West* came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. He was a Maia and Istar too and here we have Aman directly referenced (I also would argue, that Eru's authority was involved here too). But what is interesting: he looked to the west, so wanted to return, but was denied. And it seems the Istari actually wanted to return (Unfinished Tales, The Istari): For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they *yearned* exceedingly. So why should it be different with Gandalf? Ofc it could be (no question), but in my opinion this has some room interpretation. In addition Bilbo refers to Manwë's and Varda's halls as "timeless halls" in LotR too: He came unto the *timeless halls* where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the *Elder King* in *Ilmarin* on Mountain sheer In this context the phrase "strayed out of thought and time" can be interpreted this way. Maybe just passing by to enter Eru's halls/Timeless Halls. However that is my reasoning and why I said "I assume" (I said: "probably went to Aman" but that#s what i meant. i also don't say, that he was sent back by the Valar). I tried to word this carefully, because you can for sure argue differently.
@@ThePhilosophersGames The task indeed was put in place by the Valar, but the first sentence of that quote distinctly frames it that the Valar were no longer the ones running the show; Eru took over and superceded them. The Valar of course are involved in the reembodiment of the Elves, but concerning other Ainur, they embodied themselves, as is suggested the Istari did ("For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh..."). The problem Gandalf faced at that time, if the task were ever to continue, is the time it takes for killed incarnate Ainur to rebuild their power after death to hope to reincarnate again (see Sauron). Gandalf returns within 10 days, so presumably Eru has interfered, not only to spiritually enhance Gandalf, but to speed up his reembodiment. But more importantly do also note that Gandalf isn't actually given a new body anyway. When Gandalf dies, his fallen body remains atop Celebdil while his spirit leaves Eä, and Eru then puts him back into the same body. This is why Gandalf is naked, having been burned from the flames of Durin's Bane, and why he then went to Lothlórien for "physical healing and refreshment" (Letter #156).
I think we have a small misunderstanding (I agree with you). You interpret things into my answer, I haven't wrote :) To quote my self: I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority So we agree on this point -> Eru took over I also never said (not even in the video, I worded it careful there), that the Valar re-embodied him/sent him back or that they re-embody Ainur (I know, that Ainur can take a new physical form again by themeselves, when they are not diminished to "nothingness", see my video about Death in LotR). quote from my last answer: Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in *other* examples of "re-embodiment" My point is not, that the Valar re-embody Gandalf, but that Aman is a place where a "faithful" Ainur could *probably* return after he "died" and we find at least evidence for their desire to return: "[...] Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. + Saruman's death, who looks into the west And that's basically the answer your original question ("Why do you presume that Gandalf went to Aman after he died atop Celebdil?"): I see that as one *possibility*. So basically: Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru But ofc, it could also be Celebdil -> Eru I think both are possible, and both have arguments, I'm also not sure, what is more likely. There is room for interpretation and in my opinion this little detail does not make a big difference. I personally like Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru a bit more.
A way of showing Sauron he was cast from the order/disgraced... Also notice Gandalf's new staff clerely was the same color as his new garb... while Saruman's staff was always a color dfferent from his own garbs.. almost like to show that Gandalf was higher than him now.
This just struck me, if the staffs are sort of the Istari's symbol of office, I wonder if Gandalf broke his staff as a way to symbolize that he was unable to maintain the guidelines of the Istari and still oppose the Balrog? It's just striking that he does that right before he goes into an all out confrontation with a being of comparable raw power to Sauron himself.
That's a very nice theory. I like it. How likely it is is hard to say though. I think not getting away was not Gandalf's plan, but maybe he saw it coming. I guess it was his fate. Maybe with this his fate was sealed, who knows.
This is not the part I would think. Saruman took Gandalfs staff in the movie and and he somehow got it back despite jumping on to Gwaihyr’s back and flying to Rivendel
Gandalf did not go to the Undying Lands when he met his end. Tolkein confirms it----"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'."
That's a very good point. I always assumed this means: he did not go to the Valar (or council with them), but to Eru. So it was not the power of the Valar that sent him back. Imo he could have gone to Eru through the Halls of Mandos too (like Men do in a sense), so I assumed he would go there first and then to e.g. the Timeless Halls. But you are probably right. Another detail is ofc that this is from a draft letter, that seems not to be sent.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I sometimes wonder if the Valar would have even bothered to send Gandalf back if they could; given that their emissaries up till that point weren't doing such a bang up job. I don't think they would have the power to create such a drastic change in Gandalf as seen in Gandalf the white. There was something different about Gandalf than a mere increase in power. Merry and Pippin noted a sort of shift in his personality.
I fully agree imo it's really important that Eru brings Gandalf back. I don't think the Valar would have the power to "change" Gandalf in this way. And who knows, the story could have taken a different end, if the Valar would have sent him back. In addition Gollum's fate of tripping and falling down into the fiery pits of Mount Doom was also Eru's work. So Eru intervened in the events of The Lord of the Rings quite massively.
I think that as in folk lore and legend, magical staffs or wands are not a symbol of magic or power, but are used to focus and direct power. You can see this in the way they use the staffs in confrontations in the movies and the book ( the Balrog on the bridge where he physically strikes the bridge and it collapses, suggesting it was the staff that focused Gandalfs power). Most notably I would ask you to watch Sauraman taking Gandalfs staff during their battle. The staffs, lets say they do actually focus power from the Wizard that wields them. What supports this notion? Sauraman fights Gandalf until he has Gandalfs staff, so this would seem pointless and odd if it was not being used as a weapon. You can see during this fight that they use the staffs to focus magical energy quite clearly culminating in Gandalf being spun around and levitated in the air by Sauramans movement of his staff...
You have to consider that the books are in parts a bit different and I focus on the books in my videos. E.g. the fight between Saruman and Gandalf never happens in the books. How Gandalf gets imprisoned by Saruman on the top of Orthanc is not really known, but a fight is not mentioned. Ofc Gandalf uses his staff, e.g. to break the bridge in Moria and the staff breaks doing this in the books. He can definitely do "magic with it" (in their Istari form it probably also helps to focus their power, who knows. so I wouldn't disasgree with you here), but from a lore perspective he is an angelic entity, that doesn't even need a physical form to begin with. And they often use word, that have power and authority (e.g. in song). So Gandalf also doesn't need a staff to manifest his powers. In addition Gandalf rarely uses magic, his true power is to connect and guide people and form powerful alliances to fight Sauron. He gives the ways of fate little nudges to lead it there, where it needs to be. Definitely his greatest power and it's based on his wisdom and foresight.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yes I agree there are differences between the books and movies. One point that occurred to me just now, is where the staff is vital to performing magic when the guards mistakenly allow gandalf to take his staff into the hall of Theoden of Rohan, against the wishes of Grima..
You said something to the effect that there were only two elves in Middle-earth that had seen the light of Aman. I assume you meant Galadriel & Glorfindel. I would suggest that they are the only two we know of. What about Gildor Inglorion, that the hobbits met in the Shire? He was of the house of Finarfin (Galadriel's father) & made pilgrimages to the Tower Hills to look in the palantir that was kept there to gaze at Tol Eressea. The fate of Maglor, son of Feanor is not known. After casting the Silmaril in the sea, some tales say he still wanders the coasts of Middle-earth, endlessly singing and lamenting. I would also assume that other Noldor that fled Valinor were still living in Rivendell, Lothlorien, and at the Havens with Cirdan at the end of the Third Age. I doubt that all the Noldor of Celebrimbor in Eregion were completely annihilated. I think you could make a great video about this.....just my humble opinion...but you make really great videos about things like this....
Agreed, you are right. I worded it like this: "She is one of two known elves in Middle-earth in the Third Age, who have seen Aman, the Undying Lands, with their own eyes." We only know about Galadriel and Glorfindel. Gildor could be. I think he was intended once intended to be the son of Finrod. In this case it depends on when he was born. Galadriel's child was born probably early Second Age, so one could argue it could be a similar time for him (but it was changed by Tolkien anyway). The idea, that he want to Elbereth could mean both. That he never has seen Aman and wants to see it or that he misses it. There could be some evidence that he is an Exile, but i would need to look deeper into it. Would be indeed an interesting topic for a video ^^ When it comes to other elves: my argument would be, that they probably left Middle-earth by now. Galadriel also has this exile story (Tolkien changed his mind several times here) going on, which indicates a bit, that an Elf of her age would have left Middle-earth already. In this sense maybe only the "First Age of the Years of the Sun Elves" are left. Still there could be other. E.g. it is indicated, that the White Council maybe had other members. So ofc there could be more Elvish lords of old, but we don't know about them.
Ah. You say twice in your reply that Tolkien changed his mind. I think that's what I love about Tolkien most: his ever-changing mythos & the contradictions he left for us to ponder. Perhaps you're correct & Gildor was once supposed to be the son of Finrod. But what Tolkien left for us was that Finrod never married & that's what he turned Nargathrond over to his brother Orodreth. And since Finrod died to protect Beren in the First Age, he couldn't have possibly fathered a son in the Second Age. And yes, I've always wondered about the White Council members. The movies lead us to believe that it consisted of Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond. But the books include Cirdan & Glorfindel. I've always wondered about Erestor, Radagast, Celeborn, Thranduil & others. I guess I'll always have to wonder...LOL!
@@hotmale5221 well isn't that the sign of a true mythology. It is actually a shame the Tolkien estate guards what is considered canon so closely as it goes completely against the idea of mythology. Mythology are origin stories that change over time and are different for everyone who knows them, people give them their own spin when retelling. People nowadays seem too obsessed with 'the true story' to get the magic of a mythology. It has to be covered in mystery and shrouded in the unknown; after all it's mythology, not history. The two usually overlap but descerning the history from mythology is difficult and usually imprecise. Look, for example, at all the effort historians have gone through to find the real city of Troy.
Why tom bombadil wasn't more usefull? I know his like nature and he dont fight but why he dont help the istari and others with his knowlage of the world? Great video Stay awsome!
Tom Bombadil did render aid in his own way when he aided the hobbits. But as a possible Maier, I believe he was forbidden to act directly by the Valar. The use of his abilities would have seriously upset the balance of natural life in Middle Earth. Especially seeing he had more power and dominance of will than the One Ring.
Wizard/shaman staff's are upside down little trees. The roots are connected to the upper realm and the wizard/shaman brings the power and wisdom down to the rest of us. The fancy staff's in the movies are obviously designed to look more magical instead of based on real mystical tools.
I think part of the reason they are old men is so they won't be tempted to use their physical might but only use it in defense. Saruman gets around this by growing an army to fight for him.
They also took the form of old men to fit in better and appear as Wise to mortal men in MIddle-Earth. If they arrived in their angelic form they'd scare off a majority of the peoples.
@@Reisboy_PhD In the Silmarillian? I found this passage "...they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shapes of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand."
Did I quote a line wrong? For LotR Quotes sometimes the lines are slightly different in the book (I usually go with the book quote). I guess when you haven't seen scene for a long time you mind changes it a bit in it's memory and in social media other people have this too and quite it wrong, so the effect gets amplified because you read the wrong quote a lot. PS: I'm also bad a memorizing quotes precisely.
ThePhilosophersGames no no not you! i was wondering aloud simply bc ppl often forget “you shall not pass” was the second line from gandalf (therefore not the only), and “i am your father, luke” is the line i believe; not the one most quote as “luke, i am your father”. nothing at all to do w you, your vids are fantastic!
Gandalf's new white staff was destroyed by the Witch King in battle for Minas Tirith in Return of the King, yet when he was leaving for the undying lands with Bilbo, Frodo and the Elves he has it back somehow. Was it this way in the book?
This does not happen in the books. The Witchking has to shift his focus and just flies away. What is also interesting to to note: this scene (staff gets destroyed) is as far as I know only in the extended cut. Also as explained in the video, Gandalf can get or make a new staff as long as he stays true to his mission too.
Mr Herridge if saruman could have used his full power/potential he would defeat sauron easily but then he would be the dark lord. The valar/eru didn’t wanted a next dark lord to rise so they became advisors and guiders. There was a rule that the istari only could use there power on the level of the opponent to some extend. Thats why you see gandalf uses magic against the balrog and the nazgul and fighting with sword against orcs.
What about when Gandalf borrows Radagasts staff and Radagast tells him "It works, you just have to fiddle with the top." Then later when going into battle he tries to do what he did against the balrog and bangs the staff on the ground, twice, and it won't work because Radagasts staff isn't working properly?
Yes, Radagast is only mentioned by Bëorn once in the Hobbit book and the Dol Guldur story is actually from the LotR Appendices, but Radagast does not appear in it. Interestingly Radagast actually appears in the LotR main story very shortly (he gives Gandalf message from Saruman to meet with the White Wizard in Isengard). But not mention of Radagast's staff.
Ahh ok so basically it's a case of the Movie straying away from the truth, possibly misrepresenting the nature of the Staffs for what ever reason. Of course I would always side with the books and Tolkens original vision. Ty
How did he get it back from Saruman after being rescued by the eagle from the top of Orphanc? At that time, he was still Gandalf the Grey and at the council at Rivendell, he's got his staff (at least in the movie)...
Thank you, happy you like it :) The answer is probably very unspectacular, but in the book Gandalf simply does not lose his staff. He is led by "them" (I assume Saruman and some guards) up to the tower over a narrow stair and has to stay there. In a dream/vision Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house he sees how Gandalf is picked up by a Great Eagle at night and he also his staff is mentioned in this dream/vision. Then Gwaihir flew him to Edoras (Rohan), where Gandalf took Shadowfax and rode back to the Shire from there. I think the next mention of his staff is in Rivendell during the council. But it seems he never lost his staff there and the films just porreyed it very differently. I think I mention it in my LotR films and books references and differences series, if you are interested. But I dont know what episode. I think it's in episode 12 or 13: th-cam.com/play/PLvqIed90tYZoiZZ-mAGxp6NnUrdURe0Uq.html
Noted it. In case you can't wait, I have a bit of it in my SoW lore comparison video: th-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/w-d-xo.html (there should be times in the description)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 90 | คู่เอก "ก้องไกล vs แอนตาร์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VugIvOstzRI/mqdefault.jpg)
His new staff was a loot drop off the balrog he slew.
haha that's probably the best explanation I heard so far ^^
HAHAHA
What about when Saruman took it and imprisoned him on top of the tower of Orthanc?
It's obvious that the staff is a "power focus" that Gandalf CAN make a new version of at will.
This can also be surmised from the fact that his staff was destroyed by Saron in Gal Dalgur yet he had another one later at the battle of the five armies.
His hat has +%50 magic find
My dumb brain first read this as “Balrog Stew”, which sounds pretty good actually.
I feel like the Valar had nothing to do with Gandalfs spirit more so he was reborn by Illuvatar directly, it states he passed out of space and time which kind of hints at him completly being removed from the entire world.
Yes he was send back by Eru. I just speculated if he maybe went to the halls of Mandos before Eru called him. I think there you can argue, that he did not enter the halls of Mandos too.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yea I am also willing to bet his new powers, white staff and raiment were personally granted to him by Eru as well. So maybe this time he became an emissary of Eru as opposed to the Valar since Eru brought him back?
@@CharlesCowart-x2w He got the clothes in Lothlorien. That's said in LotR.
@@vexaris1890 So did he still have his grey clothes when he came back, or did he show up there naked? xD
@@CharlesCowart-x2w Apparently he showed up naked, at least that's what we have to assume. Gwaihir picked him up naked and brought him to Lothlorien.
i can imagine Gandalf going to Galadriel and just being "So I died can I get a staff"
while being naked :D
Gandalf: "Iv fallen and I cannot get up! Galadriel! GALADRIEL! Are you there?!"
Galadriel: "Here, have a stick."
True story.
"Please tell me we don't eat lembas again..."
Despite Gandalf being way superior to Galadriel
Imagine being some random hiker or something while Gandalf was just laying there naked after he was reborn. “I need some of that pipe weed” 🤣🤣
:D
Gandalf staffs
1. His own (burned by Sauron)
2. He Gets radagast (Saruman steals it)
3. He gets it from Elrond and Galadriel in Rivendell (schatterd when he Fall in moria)
4. Gandalf the white (destroyed by witch king)
5. Gets from galadriel and elrond Again (goes to undieng lands)
4.
That is all from the films and none of it actually happened except the Moria bit. In the books they barely mention his staff. The same one he presumably had throughout The Hobbit he has when Saruman imprisons him and he escapes Orthanc with it. It breaks on the Bridge of Khazad Dum when he breaks the bridge. When next we meet him it just states he has a staff, presumably given to him by Galadriel when he is clothed in white after being sent back. The Witch-king doesn't destroy it at all and presumably this is the one that he takes to the Undying Lands at the end of the books.
5 staffs
5 wizards
But how does he get it back from Saruman in order to fight the Balrog? Sure the book version is different but im talking about the film version
The staff is a tool. It has no power of its own, but helps the wizard focus his power, in much the same way as a wrench helps a mechanic turn a bolt, or a brush helps an artist paint a canvas. Sure, in theory one could do the same job without it, but it would be far more difficult.
Yes! Just like you say, I have always seen the wizard's staff as an extension of his own body.
Kinda like a finger up the butt hole
I like this explanation :)
I feel the same, but I think they also use the staff to disguise the use of power. People believe the staff has some magic power, but it is really them using more of their actual power with an “excuse” on why they can do it.
i always wondered if the reborn Gandalf found Glamdring and Narya at hand and grasped them when he was retrieved by Gwaihir. One can only deduce so... but maybe best to not overthink those details.
As a wizard I feel like weighing in on this.
A staff is a useful tool for many reasons. In the movies it is mostly used as a weapon but it is much more accurate to think of it as a tool, even if it is great for clobbering. The thing it gets used the most for is a portable place to hang herbs while they dry, Gandalf had tobacco, and other things that were likely dried for use hanging from his staff.
As far as for support, besides walking a staff is great for stabilization while bathing in a current, guiding a raft in shallow water, or as a balancing weight on a narrow passage.
Some staffs are crafted incorporating items that energy, luck, or other things can be stored in like a trickle charger for a battery, only to be released when it is needed.
To make your own staff:
Choose a wood that has the properties you would like to see in your self on your travels. Find the tree, select and remove a branch, then strip the bark. On ariverside, dig a trench large enough to bed the branch in the shallows, and anchor it with rocks, leave it for one moon cycle then retrieve it. Build a fire and add dry leaves form the tree the branch originated from. Turn the branch in the smoke until it dries, focussing the energy you wish it to embody, being patient and grounded. Once dry, find as salt rich soil as possable, and bury it for one moon cycle. Retrieve it, clean it, decorate it using only metals, plant matter, animal products, or other natural items. Nothing store bought, no adhesive that you didn't make your self from items you collect from nature. Tie knots instead it's easier. Last step: give it a name, one you have never heard attached to any other thing is best.
I practice magic too. Whst about you?
@@joeyschuchardt8695 define magic
@@joeyschuchardt8695 I practice wizardry, which includes a wide range of skills. Some of it could be called magic.
@@merlin4real I'm a born again Christian prophet so I tend to stick bible based practices like hoodoo and southern conjure folk magic. But recently I've begun practicing primitive shamanism. Nice to meet another practitioner.
This is amazing
I love that you made a video of this. I’ve always wondered how tf did he always get his staff back??
Yes this was a question I got a lot and I thought it was a fun topic to cover. I should have mentioned that in the books Gandalf only loses his staff once though, while in the films he loses it all the time.
I share your interpretation on the Istari and their staves: a symbol of authority from the west, not necessarily needed to perform "magic" but used nonetheless as a statement that the power used is in accordance to their mission. A statement so powerful that when it's clearly misused, like Saruman did, the staff needs to be broken and the member expelled. And furthermore, again as we see with Saruman, a total rejection from the powers in Aman in case of death. Great video, as always. Thank you!
That was well worded!
Thank you :)
@@ThePhilosophersGames hey the dark prophet of youtube also has a staff. Hes gonna do a real life lord of the rings movie soon. Click me to see some of his older writing
I agree, there are also scepters some leaders use, Manwe, Numenor kings, etc...
Lets clear one thing Gandalf when he slayed the balrog he died, and he never went to aman, he went to the hall of illuvatar, becasue only hes got the power over life and death. and illuvatar him self sent him back to middle earth. not the valar.
Yes he definitely was sent back by Eru. I worded that very carefully, because I speculated that he might have entered the Halls of Mandos first and then "to" Eru, but after further looking into the texts, I would agree, he almost certain did not go there.
yet, we know the Valar could do something about death, since Luthien "died" and was sent back by them, albeit with Iluvatar's permission, though I don't think it was explicit.
I wonder if Eru represents true neutral.
I honestly was beginning to really wonder this myself recently, and I find it awesome that this video popped up on my notifications just in time!!!! I find it quite interesting (and quite brilliant) that the staffs of The Istari were more symbolic among other small things then actually being objects to practice Magic through (though they of course can still do that if the Istari wanted their own staffs to of course as shown in this video). It really beings an interesting dynamic to them imo, and is one of the main reasons why the "Wizards" of Middle-Earth are my most favorite out of all of Fantasy Fiction! :)
Yes, I think it's an interesting topic too. I maybe could have went through all scenes, when Gandalf uses his staff, but it would not change my point I guess (I also plan to make that for another video about magic, that I will make at some point). I really like how Tolkien handles magic in general in his works. It's quite subtle and well implemented into his world. It has some thought behind it, but also offers enough mystery.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I couldn't agree more! Tolkien's use of magic really is quite unique and subtle and is brilliantly implemented into his world, cannot wait to see your video on it! :)
This one was a bit rushed, but I had some technical difficulties and voice recording wasn't really smooth. I hope you still enjoy it :) Please post new lore questions, if you like ^^ Also I sometimes use the British pronunciation of "staff" and sometimes the US one, sadly I noticed too late =/ To be fair this stuff is also confusing for a not native speaker :P
Since you encourage asking lore questions, I would like to take advantage of it and propose a topic which has been bothering me for quite sometime: Why do the elves in Middle Earth have so few children? We all know about seven sons of Feanor but apart from that it has been one to three sons or daughters at the most. Isn't there simply not enough souls in the halls of Mandos or do the elves wish to be reborn in Aman instead of Middle Earth? Or do they have fertility problems? :)
Thanks for your time and effort which you put in making videos for this channel. I really enjoy them and your philosophical approach to Tolkien's work.
No problem and thank you for watching. According to the History of Middle-earth books (mainly Morgoth's Ring if I recall correctly) the elves have something like different life cycles. In their first they marry and get children at some point and then this desire to have children goes away and they enter their second where they probably focus on greater things and third where they are getting "old", e.g. male elves can have a beard like Círdan.
Usually they have like 2-5 children in this first cycle and 7 with Finwë (who took a new wife, after his first wife "died" when she gave birth to his first son Fëanor (her spirit was weary and a bit after giving birth left her body)) was quite an exception among elves. This is also debated at length in Morgoth's Ring.
Another component could be, that they had no health issues, well developed societies and were basically immortal. We see a comparable phenomenon in our world too. The more developed a country is and the older people get on average there, the smaller is the birthrate. There might be some cultural differences too, but Japan or e.g. Germany have very low birthrates. People become parents quite late compared too 50-70 years ago. I think this phenomenon could apply to elves too. They have all the time and focus on all kind of other things of self fulfillment, so that having children is not a priority (e.g. for their species to survive). And probably when they get close to their second life cycle, it's too late. And they only have few or no children. They probably also don't need that many children, because elves are around for some time ^^ At some point Aman would be over populated.
I still can't get enough of your content over the years.
Thank you :) happy you enjoyed my videos for so long. Can't believe how fast the time went ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames same here
His first staff was a quarter-staff. After killing the Balrog, he upgraded to a buck-and-a-quarter-quarter-staff.
Ho! Ha-ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
@@wizardsuth I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that you're the real Gandalf.
Don't bother. I'll join you. Just call me Friar Duck.
Wouldn't Glorfifindel be the elf that best understands his journey, I mean, he even died fighting a balrog!
That is ofc correct, but Glorfindel is also on a mission coming from Aman (like Gandalf) and he is not established in Middle-earth too. In a sense he is just a "lone ranger" or a "guest" in Middle-earth too. Galadriel had her own realm and he knew where to find her and that she could help him, giving him cloth and a new staff.
Such amazing content! Thank you for the fascinating lore!
Thank you, happy you enjoyed my videos :)
ThePhilosophersGames have you ever played “the third age total war”? It would be epic if you eventually make a review of the game if you have. :)
Not yet. I plan to do a War in the North Review, maybe after that ^^
ThePhilosophersGames Sounds awesome I’ll stay tuned! 😊
I found the discussion of Gandalf and his sojourn in Lothlorien very inspiring and insightful. Related to the knowledge of the Wise...how did Galadriel know that she must send Gwaihir to find him? The last she had heard that we read, he had fallen into darkness. She must have gotten word somehow from Aman? What was her relationship to Aman now that she renounced the Ring? It might be a good video to trace Galadriel and her relationship to the Valar...her childhood, her names, her betrayal by Feanor, her desire for her own kingdom...and her restoration to the Blessed Realm. It might be a longer video, but so worth it!!
I agree with what you say about the staves as symbols of authority. And I believe they are conduits of that authority, used to conduct and direct the power of their owner...whether in small ways, like the light, or greater, as in conflict. I’m only halfway through this video so maybe you have made this point by the time I am through.
Im a bit rusty on Tolkien, so apologies if im stupid. The Mirror of Galadriel shows many things, though it wouldn't tell her directly she must have been able to divine that Gandalf went into a dark place from which he did not return. She knew of Gandalf's purpose, of Saruman's corruption, and what might happen. I've always been confused by Saruman the White maintaining his position after Sauron corrupted him.
WeedyistFlame420 Great point about the Mirror. It may have shown her that he had returned and perhaps even where he was so she could send Gwaihir after him. What do you mean about Saruman retaining his position after being corrupted?
@@thestraightroad305 might be why wasn't he expelled or something. If so, the answer is simple: the others did not know.
This makes sense and answers the first question I had when watching The Fellowship of the Ring on film: when Gandalf escapes the roof of Orthanc astride Gwaihir, "How did he get another staff if Saruman took his at the end of their wizard duel?". A friend said "he probably just had a bunch of spares lying around" but a better answer is: "Doesn't matter, staff doesn't do anything".
In fact, across the films Gandalf loses his staff more often than Jedi lose their lightsabers. Sauron disintegrates his staff in the 3rd Hobbit film, as does the Witch King of Angmar in Return of the King. After each encounter he appears again with a new staff. Sometimes a tree branch is just a branch?
Yes maybe should have included it, but in the book he only loses his staff once in Moria (it shatters when he hits the bridge with it, which funnily enough does not happen in the film ^^). After that he gets a new one. But e.g. in Orthanc he is imprisoned by Saruman and his guards, but Gandalf keeps his staff.
In the films he loses them constantly (as you said). So he seems to have some spare staffs there, but I have no lore explanation for it ^^ He only gets one new staff in Lothlórien, when Gwaihir flies him there after he awakes as Gandalf the White.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Well if Saruman lets him keep it in the book it's another indication that it's not actually a threat. Does Wormtongue insist they "get the Wizard's staff!" in the book?
Yes that is in the book too. There are some slight differences in the film I guess, but that is basically what happens.
I certainly wasn't expecting to see my name called out when I clicked this video XD very nicely put video too. I really like your take on it and I agree on your points too. This is what I really love about the Middle Earth series, as even though so much is explained, it still allows for so much personal interpretation on certain parts
Thank you, happy you liked it :) It also was a good question and even before I started the vote for the topics, I knew that I would combine those questions. A perfect fit.
Yes agreed. It generates some mystery, which is interesting for the reader and fits into the field of "mythology", but also encourages to make your own thoughts (it's also interesting that I answered something quite similar to another comment just a few minutes ago ^^).
The real question is how did he get a staff after held captive in isengard....
in the book Saruman did not take it. In Frodo's vision at Tom Bombadils's house of Gandalf escaping from Isengard, he sees his staff. For the film we don't know.
I enjoyed your video...I even Subscribed...
I wanted to add that I look at the Staffs as a 'Lens'. A object in order to 'Focus' the Wizards Power.
They still have power with out them but the Staff helps them concentrate their power better...
Thank you, happy you liked it and that you even subbed ^^ Much appreciated :)
Yes this theory I got a few times here in the comments. It could be like a lens. Definitely a valid theory.
You mentioned how the staffs are symbol of authority. Also notice how the Kings of Numenor are always described as inheriting or taking control of a sceptre, never a crown.
yes good point
Another fantastic video. I love the passion and quality of analysis. The interesting, friendly conversations that are sparked are also great to read. Once I'm on summer holiday, I am absolutely 100% going to read the books XD. Thank you so much for these videos ThePhilosophersGames. All the best man!
Can anyone suggest where to start? I am assuming The Silmarillion?
Thank you for you kind words :) I'm always happy, when people enjoy my videos.
The Silmarillion can be a tough read. I would say starting with The Lord of the Ring and The Hobbit is the best way. You will notice that The Hobbit feels a bit different compared to LotR, because originally it was not part of the LotR universe, but Tolkien changed this with the Second Edition (some small changes here and there). So that's something to keep in mind.
After those I think it's the LotR Appendices (at least the lore ones) and then the Silmarillion and then maybe Unfinished Tales. I originally used the Silmarillion as some kind of Compendium to understand the lore of LotR and to find answers for my lore questions. It looks like a short book, but the information is so condensed in it, it's like a history book.
After all of this you can also check the 12 History of Middle-earth books if you still hadn't enough ^^ They are about the creation process of the books (esp. the Silmarillion) and discuss Tolkien's later notes and ideas + special cases. It's imo difficult to define what's canon and what's not with them.
I hope that helps ^^
@@ThePhilosophersGames thanks man, really appreciate the thorough advice. I'm very glad I asked! The Hobbit is where I'll start then, thanks again
What is most commonly thought of as "magic" in fantasy to most other things like harry potter or D&D is very different in Tolkien's Legendarium, which makes it all the better in my opinion. Thank you for this great video, I will show my buddies so they can learn more.
Agreed magic in Tolkien's work is really different, which I like a lot. It's quite interesting, that while all the great works you listed are definitely inspired by Tolkien to some degree, none of them took too much inspiration in the nature of magic (maybe in terminology).
No problem, thank you too for watching, commenting and recommending my content ^^
my general take on the staffs are that they are more props than useful, if you pay close attention it is the crystal Gandalf attaches to the staff that grants light not the staff itself
I think the staff's maybe help them to channel their powers while in their current form. Because if it was just a symbol then it wouldnt look like they were using the staff to perform magic like expelling saruman from theoden, shaft of light against nazgul, light etc. At least in the film's anyway and saruman was powerless magically speaking in the books during the scouring of the shire after his staff had beem broken...
He still had some power after Gandalf broke his staff. I think it was Eru who gave Gandalf the White the authority to "break his staff". In this Saruman lost his authority, visible for all. All could see how his staff broke. How can he be powerful if Gandalf just breaks what is in his hands by speaking some words. I think the staffs were more like tools. Maybe they also helped the Istari to channel some power or express their authority over parts of the world, but as explained Gandalf was still able to fight a Balrog for several days without it. The fight between Gandalf and Saruman is also not not in the books, but I think it works better visually esp. with the staffs.
Loth Lorien was supposed to be the place where the fey realm met the material world. At least, this was the case for Titania, and the Queen of Air and Darkness were concerned.
The wizard's staff is typically used as a magical focus. Much like the wands in the Potter series.
Great video as usual! I'm looking forward to your top gaming list video if you choose to make it. There have been so many great games that came out this past year, and I would be fascinated to get your take on them. Lore question for you: We know that the Ishtari and Balrogs (and Eagles) are Maiar. Are there other Maiar on Middle Earth as well? Can we assume that lesser spirits are also from Aman?
Thank you :) Yes, this year was insane and sadly I didn't play too many games (I also play on PC only), still happy to hear that some people enjoy my gaming content, too! Also great question. I wrote it down into my notes ^^
Actually, when Gandalf gets in the first fight with Saruman he already loses his staff. When he is hold captive on top of Isengard he does not have the staff, neither does he when he flies of on his eagle, but then when they are having the council in Rivendell his staff is suddenly back in his arms...
Yes. He has probably multiple of them (they also look different in some scenes). Can't remember how it was in the books. There Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Possible that Saruman still took it away from him.
Very informative and fun, as always. Thank you so much for the effort you put into these videos! Wishing you happy holidays!
Thank you :) Also happy holidays to you ^^
I suspect that the wizards made their own staffs, binding the tools to them.
Good video my dude. What about a video concerning the mortal beings who depart for Valinor at the end of the third age? I'd like to know your thoughts on whether Bilbo/Frodo/Samwise/Gimli have a fate apart from the rest of their kin? Do they live forever, or eventually pass to the Halls of Mandos?
Thank you :) I have a somewhat related video: th-cam.com/video/bI7AZbwkjvE/w-d-xo.html
No I don't think that they have a different fate or become immortal. They will die at some point and follow the fate of their people. (Hobbits are counted towards Men). It's just a special honour for them to go to Aman and heal from their burdens. Gimli is an interesting case, because Dwarves are probably not banned from Aman (which is different for Men).
As I recall, Gandalf lost four staffs in the Peter Jackson movies...3 in the LOTR and one destroyed by Sauron in The Hobbit part 2. I don't think these power staffs got warranties,right?
Yes he "loses" a lot of them ^^ haha good question. Does he have warranty on the staffs or maybe an insurance?
I know he loses his staff in Fellowship, and then again against the Witch King in Return of the King, so that's twice...but when was the third time he lost it in the LOTR trilogy?
GanonGhidorah doesn’t he lose it during his fight vs Saruman at Isengard?
@Captain Caveman That was the Harbor Freight staff?
Haha naked Gandalf flying through the sky on a giant eagle.
Imagine you're travelling near the mountains, and see a naked man with white hair running around towards the forest
haha :D
Lol he flew with an eagle he didn't wander naked
@@Prince_the_One haha yes, but he flew on it naked 😅 And he had to land in Lothlórien to get new clothes
@@ThePhilosophersGames in my mind the eagle took him directly to Galadriel and she knew he was coming anyway because she the Lady of the Wood and she had some robes ready lol
"How Gandalf Got His Staff Back" is the Spike Lee joint every LOTR fan wants to see
It dropped on his head from the sky while wandering around in a forest. Where could it have come from? It's a miracle I tell you!!
I think the staff was simlar to a wand a wand isnt the source of power but its a object that allows them to use their powers it isnt the source of their magic ,it just helps them cast spells and use their powers
A staff is a conduit through which powers may be channeled by those with power who reside in a physical body.
Good video!
Thank you :)
In the bible Moses carried a powerful staff.
Ron Delby actually his staff wasn’t strong it was a base so Gods power could go through it to do all the miracles that Moses showed through his staff
It was a snake disguised, possibly by a polymorph spell, into a Staff. There's a difference.... >.
Would it be powerful had someone else picked it up? Like a Sorcerer's Apprentice situation? My guess is no.
Moses was a wizard confirmed
@@willyg2k10 hahaha yeah
The staves were tools to focus the will of Illuvatar.
Surprised you didn’t mention Wyrmtongues disdain when discovering the House guards of Rohan let Gandalf in the throne room with his staff.
I think that's a weird one, because the books imply that Théoden was poisoned by Gríma too. Ofc th staff is mentioned, but it still represents his authority and is a useful tool.
Gandalf was allowed entrance like the others but without their weapons. Clearly Wyrmtongue considered the staff as dangerous as the rest of the company’s arsenal
Robert Vecchiarello He would know that from his service to Saruman. I agree.
Perhaps Gandalf's Staff is like Normy's Sword. It's not so much 'need' as a simple "I like it".
Yes that's a possibility too ^^
How did Gandalf get his staff back when he escaped Orthanc? Saruman took it from him before he was imprisoned on top of the tower. His new one was literally an exact replica or the same staff somehow.
Seems like Gandalf has a few backups lying around.
I sadly don't have a very interensting answer. In the book Saruman does not take Gandalf's staff away. So he does not lose it here. In the films - as you say - he seems to have several backup staffs ^^
ThePhilosophersGames Doesn’t it seem weird that he would allow him to keep his staff?
I always believed Gandalf got a new staff made for him by elves since they may have been able to help strengthen the magic but also because it greatly resembled Elvin structures (like the white and rounded roves or canopies in Rivendell).
Regardless of how much power it has, it is something that had to be crafted. The most knowedgeable person in every art/knowledge of the valar, by lore, is Galadriel. This would include crafting of powerful items including her mirror. So whether it was an artifact of great power, or an item to channel power through, Galadriel would be one of the few people in all of middle earth, if not the only one, who could craft such an item.
I don't recall the staff being used at all in Gondor -- the rescue of Faramir scene told of light stabbing upward from his upraised hand and during the confrontation with the Witch King at the gate no weapon was indicated. I think he had grown beyond these props by then.
Yes good point. The staff is definitely mentioned less. Here's the passage again from the Siege of Gondor:
"One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away"
I can't imagine Gandalf jumping from Isengards summit, turning back and asking Saruman, "Before I go, I'm going to need my shit back so...?" This was what I wanted answered.
Great Video :D! I for one would like to see some video game videos from you. I usually find you have a nice perspective on them. I did remember Gandalf losing his staff but it never crossed my mind to question how he got it back. He's my favorite character next to Faramir so I chalked it up to him just being (for lack of a better term) a general bad ass. Also I don't expect a video on this because it's honestly far too silly but do you think since the giant eagle mentioned that Gandalf felt weightless, that he can wal on top of the snow without falling through it like Legolas?
Thank you :) Also happy you enjoy my gaming related videos, I like making them too.
Agreed I would have not thought about the question, but when I red it, I thought not a bad topic at all, so i made the video ^^
That also an interesting question. I would say yes. Gwaihir also says, that the sun shines through him:
‘‘A burden you have been,’’ he answered, ‘‘but not so now. Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.’’
You would be incorrect I’m assuming that the staff is only a symbol. After Saruman’s staff is broken, he can no longer use his magical powers. He still retained his persuasive nature but not his magic. Because if this I think it is clear that the staves, whole perhaps not magical, must be at least conduits of their power. Gandalf defeats the Balrog without his, but doing so essentially burns out his body
Isn't this a contradiction?
> After Saruman’s staff is broken, he can no longer use his magical powers.
> Gandalf defeats the Balrog without his, but doing so essentially burns out his body
Why should there be other rules for Gandalf?
"Burns out his body" is also your interpretation of what happens.
Quote from LotR: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell."
This is all we know.
But if the staff is needed, why can he defeat a Balrog? We can even read:
Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire.
So Gandalf not having power without his staff makes no sense. It's factually wrong.
So what's with Saruman?
How about Saruman can't use his power because he was officially expelled from the order by Gandalf the White who was sent back by Eru himself?
The staff was for sure convenient. Maybe even to "channel" power, but it was definitely not necessary for at least Gandalf. There is no greater magical deed than fighting a Balrog for 10 days and killing it (without his staff).
@@ThePhilosophersGames
Yea I am going to agree with ThePhilosopherGames on this one
@@ThePhilosophersGames The point concerning a lack of supporting textual evidence for Gandalf burning himself out without his staff is firmly conceded. But bear in mind that Saruman losing his power because he was cast from the order also has no textual evidence. The one correlating factor is the loss of his staff.
As a counter point, however, Gandalf DID possess the Ring of Fire, Narya. This could explain why he was able to call upon lightning to strike the Balrog. After all, Gandalf was known for his affinity with fire and lights. His possession of Narya could have influenced this and even allowed him greater control. I know that Elrond said The Three "were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power" but that may not mean they cannot be used to enhance the wearer's power in that regard.
I think the staff is just a focusing device for their magic.
The question isn't how he got his staff after Moria, the question is (in the movie) how he gets it back after his imprisonment on Orthanc, because Saruman has taken it away from him.
In the book it's not an issue, because he never loses it in the first place.
After Moria, the Elves in Lothlorien make him a new staff, so that's never even a question.
Yes, in the books, Saruman does not take away Gandalf's staff, when he is imprisoned on the top of Orthanc. In the films he has (I think) 2 different staffs as Gandalf the Grey. One with his pipe on it (but no crystal) and then the one with the crystal (which also appears in the Hobbit if I recall correctly).
@@ThePhilosophersGames Hmm... maybe. I thought he put the crystal in place as they entered Moria, for illumination.
yes, that's possible too, have to re-watch this scene at some point ^^
losthor1zon he has two different staffs in FOTR. The one he loses to Saruman and the one he replaces the previous one with. They’re very similar looking but if you look closely you can see they’re two different objects. You’re right though, he does place the crystal in the staff to illuminate the mines of Moria.
ThePhilosophersGames the staff Gandalf has in The Hobbit is a different one from the two that appear in FOTR.
Another nice one.
Thank you :)
Great video.
Fun fact, in the Hobbit Gandalf is described as using a wand for a large amount of the book.
"There i lay, staring upward. While the stars wheeled over, and each day was as long as a lifeage of the earth."
Gimli: [spits on the ground] I'd say that you were gone for a month, give or take a couple of days. Did you bring me a shiny axe? 😂😂😂
haha ^^
This whole time i thought Gandalf bought his replacement staff from eBay.
lol you mean MeBay? :P
IKEA.
Not eBay, Amazon.
However, (at least in the movies) Grima gets upset in The Two Towers when they did not take Gandalf's staff, making it appear that he needs to use it as a catalyst for his power... Gandalf and Saruman fought and when he lost his staff to Saruman, he was no longer able to fight back... Saurman did not attack once his staff was broken... when the Witch King broke the new staff, Gandalf only used his sword from that point and no magic..... not once did they show an actual power being performed without his staff - in the movies... have not read all of the books
Don't forget Wormtounge was worried about his staff and told the guards not to admit him with it on his person.
That is true, but what does Wormtongue know? He may know it has some use, but I think Gandalf without it defeating a Balrog, a being so powerful that it could end the most powerful Dwarf Kingdom in History alone, is a pretty good argument ^^
Am I the only one that was picturing the Witch King moment from the movies when reading the title?(I know, it was a movie goof and not a 'canon' moment)
In the extended Return of the King, Gandalf's staff was destroyed by the Witch King in the battle of Minas Tirith. Later, he had it back. I don't recall if this happened in the book.
Yes it's only in the extended version and also one of the few changes I don't really understand. It's not in the book (the Witchking hears Rohan's army arriving and leaves Gandalf be). Gandalf actually only loses his staff once in the book and that is in Moria, where it shatters, when he destroys the bridge with the Balrog on it. Interestingly the staff does not shatter in the film ^^
Galadriel was just a good friend in the way and had information. All the others were there before as well after Moria
How did Gandalf the Grey get his staff back after being rescued from Orthanc...?
The answer is pretty boring ^^ In the books he did not lose it in Orthanc and Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Saruman and I assume his guards (it's just stated "they") took Gandalf to the top of Orthanc over a narrow stair, where he was imprisoned. The vision/dream Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house indicates, that Gandalf had indeed still his staff on top of Orthanc (it's described in the vision/dream).
How he gets it back in the film nobody knows though ^^
ThePhilosophersGames he didn’t get his staff back in the film, he just got a new one. They look kinda similar but if you look closely you can see they’re very different.
After the Balrog was defeated Gandalf obviously went to Diagon Alley behind the Leaky Cauldron's Prancing Pony.
Galadriel is knowledgable in all things the velar taught the elves. Perhaps staff crafting?
That's a good point.
Walmart. He got it at a discount.
lol
Bulk discount maybe
In the movies they definitely have the staff as powerful magic. Either with innate power or as a channeling device.
Yes in the movies for sure, esp. the fight between Saruman and Gandalf indicates this. In the books it seems a bit different though.
But in some video it was said that the balrog did not die. Not sure if that was referring to the undying lands also, but the balrog just wont get back from there or something.
His new staff was the last attacking bonus :))
In the book, Gandalf’s staff shatters not long before he dies, in the movie Saroman’s staff shatters not long before he dies. I personally think their staves are tied to their life force in some way.
That's an interesting thought.
I think you are most likely right about the wizards' staves being symbols of their Istari status and not actual sources of power, but I can't help but notice a few contradictions to that theory in the books, ignoring movie/game depictions.
Gandalf does use his staff while breaking the Bridge of Khazad-dum, which is possibly his greatest display of magical power throughout the series. And if he did need his staff to wield his full power he could still have defeated the Balrog; Gandalf states in The White Rider that the Balrog's fire was extinguished by the water they fell in. This sounds metaphorical but it could be that being submerged in water does physically weaken Balrogs. Gandalf without his staff and a Balrog without access to its power over fire may be on roughly equal terms.
Later on, Saruman does seem rather powerless after losing his staff; he still has the power of his voice, but that isn't explicitly magical (more like a synergy between his magic and persuasive personality) and even that power seems diminished.
On the other hand, what I would consider Gandalf's greatest or second-greatest display of magic would be when he drives multiple Nazgul away from Minas Tirith. He does so by blasting them with beams of white light; the movie shows this beam emanating from his staff, but the book says that the beam came from the palm of his raised hand. I think this is one of those things that Tolkien left intentionally ambiguous in order to leave us free to wonder about it.
Yes agreed. I could imagine too that the staffs are just there to create mystery (so we can spin our own imagination around this) and the feeling of mythology.
Also thank you for your detailed comment :)
And thank *you* for the video! I love this kind of stuff and just discovered your channel.
haha no problem :) Happy you found your way to my channel ^^ I'm actually surprised that I get a lot of attention right now. Subscriber rate has liked doubled this month
Saruman took his staff when he was trapped in orthanc in the movies. Always wondered how he got it back
interestingly it seems in the book Saruman did not take his staff, when he imprisoned Gandalf. There's a hint in a dream/vision of Frodo (I think in Tom Bombadil's house), where Frodo sees Gandalf escape, but here he has his staff. The films seem not explain how he got it back though, but Gandalf seems to have some spare staffs ^^
Tolkien was a Catholic and if anyone grew up as a traditional Catholic they would understand all these symbols throughout the books probably a little better than others. Gandolf is like a Bishop, the staff his crozier. If you notice he mimics a Bishop in soo many ways. Giving advice to guide, and like a Bishop, he crowns the King. Also leading the requiem ( funeral ) of Thorin the dwarf king, etc.
Yes good point. Ofc Gandalf also has many similarities to e.g. Odin (and Tolkien was very familiar with the mythology too). He definitely had multiple inspirations.
Why do you presume that Gandalf went to Aman after he died atop Celebdil? Tolkien talks about this in Letter #156 and says the Valar had nothing to do with his return.
"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'."
Passing out of thought and time indicates that he left Eä completely, where Eru then enhanced and returned him to the the World.
Good question, difficult to answer :D
Quote from LotR, The White Rider:
Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority (because he is the only one who could have done this), but usually Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in other examples of "re-embodiment". Esp. since in this description his "task" is explicitly mentioned, which he received from the Valar (as stated in the letter). The Valar were ofc close to Eru and his will, so why should he not have returned to Aman? The latter talks more about the authority. When Saruman dies, we can read in LotR:
For a moment it wavered, looking *to the West* ; but out of *the West* came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing.
He was a Maia and Istar too and here we have Aman directly referenced (I also would argue, that Eru's authority was involved here too). But what is interesting: he looked to the west, so wanted to return, but was denied. And it seems the Istari actually wanted to return (Unfinished Tales, The Istari):
For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they *yearned* exceedingly.
So why should it be different with Gandalf? Ofc it could be (no question), but in my opinion this has some room interpretation.
In addition Bilbo refers to Manwë's and Varda's halls as "timeless halls" in LotR too:
He came unto the *timeless halls*
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the *Elder King*
in *Ilmarin* on Mountain sheer
In this context the phrase "strayed out of thought and time" can be interpreted this way. Maybe just passing by to enter Eru's halls/Timeless Halls.
However that is my reasoning and why I said "I assume" (I said: "probably went to Aman" but that#s what i meant. i also don't say, that he was sent back by the Valar). I tried to word this carefully, because you can for sure argue differently.
@@ThePhilosophersGames The task indeed was put in place by the Valar, but the first sentence of that quote distinctly frames it that the Valar were no longer the ones running the show; Eru took over and superceded them. The Valar of course are involved in the reembodiment of the Elves, but concerning other Ainur, they embodied themselves, as is suggested the Istari did ("For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh...").
The problem Gandalf faced at that time, if the task were ever to continue, is the time it takes for killed incarnate Ainur to rebuild their power after death to hope to reincarnate again (see Sauron). Gandalf returns within 10 days, so presumably Eru has interfered, not only to spiritually enhance Gandalf, but to speed up his reembodiment. But more importantly do also note that Gandalf isn't actually given a new body anyway. When Gandalf dies, his fallen body remains atop Celebdil while his spirit leaves Eä, and Eru then puts him back into the same body. This is why Gandalf is naked, having been burned from the flames of Durin's Bane, and why he then went to Lothlórien for "physical healing and refreshment" (Letter #156).
I think we have a small misunderstanding (I agree with you). You interpret things into my answer, I haven't wrote :)
To quote my self:
I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority
So we agree on this point -> Eru took over
I also never said (not even in the video, I worded it careful there), that the Valar re-embodied him/sent him back or that they re-embody Ainur (I know, that Ainur can take a new physical form again by themeselves, when they are not diminished to "nothingness", see my video about Death in LotR).
quote from my last answer:
Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in *other* examples of "re-embodiment"
My point is not, that the Valar re-embody Gandalf, but that Aman is a place where a "faithful" Ainur could *probably* return after he "died" and we find at least evidence for their desire to return:
"[...] Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly.
+ Saruman's death, who looks into the west
And that's basically the answer your original question ("Why do you presume that Gandalf went to Aman after he died atop Celebdil?"):
I see that as one *possibility*. So basically: Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru
But ofc, it could also be Celebdil -> Eru
I think both are possible, and both have arguments, I'm also not sure, what is more likely. There is room for interpretation and in my opinion this little detail does not make a big difference. I personally like Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru a bit more.
A way of showing Sauron he was cast from the order/disgraced... Also notice Gandalf's new staff clerely was the same color as his new garb... while Saruman's staff was always a color dfferent from his own garbs.. almost like to show that Gandalf was higher than him now.
and idk if its true but there are theries like the staff of saruman gives him a enchant on his power of words and stuff
This just struck me, if the staffs are sort of the Istari's symbol of office, I wonder if Gandalf broke his staff as a way to symbolize that he was unable to maintain the guidelines of the Istari and still oppose the Balrog? It's just striking that he does that right before he goes into an all out confrontation with a being of comparable raw power to Sauron himself.
That's a very nice theory. I like it. How likely it is is hard to say though. I think not getting away was not Gandalf's plan, but maybe he saw it coming. I guess it was his fate. Maybe with this his fate was sealed, who knows.
This is not the part I would think. Saruman took Gandalfs staff in the movie and and he somehow got it back despite jumping on to Gwaihyr’s back and flying to Rivendel
Yes that is sadly not explained in the films. In the books he interestingly (most likely) keeps the staff on top of Orthanc though.
@ the only explanation I can think of is that Elrond gives him a new one
I ENJOYED THIS
Love that durins bane took down so many. Until he met gandalf :D
Yes that's a good point. He destroyed everyone he met until he met Gandalf.
Gandalf did not go to the Undying Lands when he met his end. Tolkein confirms it----"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back - for a time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'."
That's a very good point. I always assumed this means: he did not go to the Valar (or council with them), but to Eru. So it was not the power of the Valar that sent him back.
Imo he could have gone to Eru through the Halls of Mandos too (like Men do in a sense), so I assumed he would go there first and then to e.g. the Timeless Halls.
But you are probably right. Another detail is ofc that this is from a draft letter, that seems not to be sent.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I sometimes wonder if the Valar would have even bothered to send Gandalf back if they could; given that their emissaries up till that point weren't doing such a bang up job. I don't think they would have the power to create such a drastic change in Gandalf as seen in Gandalf the white. There was something different about Gandalf than a mere increase in power. Merry and Pippin noted a sort of shift in his personality.
I fully agree imo it's really important that Eru brings Gandalf back. I don't think the Valar would have the power to "change" Gandalf in this way. And who knows, the story could have taken a different end, if the Valar would have sent him back. In addition Gollum's fate of tripping and falling down into the fiery pits of Mount Doom was also Eru's work. So Eru intervened in the events of The Lord of the Rings quite massively.
I think that as in folk lore and legend, magical staffs or wands are not a symbol of magic or power, but are used to focus and direct power. You can see this in the way they use the staffs in confrontations in the movies and the book ( the Balrog on the bridge where he physically strikes the bridge and it collapses, suggesting it was the staff that focused Gandalfs power).
Most notably I would ask you to watch Sauraman taking Gandalfs staff during their battle.
The staffs, lets say they do actually focus power from the Wizard that wields them.
What supports this notion?
Sauraman fights Gandalf until he has Gandalfs staff, so this would seem pointless and odd if it was not being used as a weapon.
You can see during this fight that they use the staffs to focus magical energy quite clearly culminating in Gandalf being spun around and levitated in the air by Sauramans movement of his staff...
You have to consider that the books are in parts a bit different and I focus on the books in my videos. E.g. the fight between Saruman and Gandalf never happens in the books. How Gandalf gets imprisoned by Saruman on the top of Orthanc is not really known, but a fight is not mentioned.
Ofc Gandalf uses his staff, e.g. to break the bridge in Moria and the staff breaks doing this in the books. He can definitely do "magic with it" (in their Istari form it probably also helps to focus their power, who knows. so I wouldn't disasgree with you here), but from a lore perspective he is an angelic entity, that doesn't even need a physical form to begin with. And they often use word, that have power and authority (e.g. in song). So Gandalf also doesn't need a staff to manifest his powers. In addition Gandalf rarely uses magic, his true power is to connect and guide people and form powerful alliances to fight Sauron. He gives the ways of fate little nudges to lead it there, where it needs to be. Definitely his greatest power and it's based on his wisdom and foresight.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yes I agree there are differences between the books and movies. One point that occurred to me just now, is where the staff is vital to performing magic when the guards mistakenly allow gandalf to take his staff into the hall of Theoden of Rohan, against the wishes of Grima..
Yes that's a good example.
When Gandalf dies he respawns back at home base without his gear
lol
You said something to the effect that there were only two elves in Middle-earth that had seen the light of Aman. I assume you meant Galadriel & Glorfindel. I would suggest that they are the only two we know of. What about Gildor Inglorion, that the hobbits met in the Shire? He was of the house of Finarfin (Galadriel's father) & made pilgrimages to the Tower Hills to look in the palantir that was kept there to gaze at Tol Eressea. The fate of Maglor, son of Feanor is not known. After casting the Silmaril in the sea, some tales say he still wanders the coasts of Middle-earth, endlessly singing and lamenting. I would also assume that other Noldor that fled Valinor were still living in Rivendell, Lothlorien, and at the Havens with Cirdan at the end of the Third Age. I doubt that all the Noldor of Celebrimbor in Eregion were completely annihilated. I think you could make a great video about this.....just my humble opinion...but you make really great videos about things like this....
Agreed, you are right. I worded it like this: "She is one of two known elves in Middle-earth in the Third Age, who have seen Aman, the Undying Lands, with their own eyes."
We only know about Galadriel and Glorfindel. Gildor could be. I think he was intended once intended to be the son of Finrod. In this case it depends on when he was born. Galadriel's child was born probably early Second Age, so one could argue it could be a similar time for him (but it was changed by Tolkien anyway). The idea, that he want to Elbereth could mean both. That he never has seen Aman and wants to see it or that he misses it. There could be some evidence that he is an Exile, but i would need to look deeper into it. Would be indeed an interesting topic for a video ^^
When it comes to other elves: my argument would be, that they probably left Middle-earth by now. Galadriel also has this exile story (Tolkien changed his mind several times here) going on, which indicates a bit, that an Elf of her age would have left Middle-earth already. In this sense maybe only the "First Age of the Years of the Sun Elves" are left. Still there could be other. E.g. it is indicated, that the White Council maybe had other members. So ofc there could be more Elvish lords of old, but we don't know about them.
Ah. You say twice in your reply that Tolkien changed his mind. I think that's what I love about Tolkien most: his ever-changing mythos & the contradictions he left for us to ponder. Perhaps you're correct & Gildor was once supposed to be the son of Finrod. But what Tolkien left for us was that Finrod never married & that's what he turned Nargathrond over to his brother Orodreth. And since Finrod died to protect Beren in the First Age, he couldn't have possibly fathered a son in the Second Age. And yes, I've always wondered about the White Council members. The movies lead us to believe that it consisted of Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond. But the books include Cirdan & Glorfindel. I've always wondered about Erestor, Radagast, Celeborn, Thranduil & others. I guess I'll always have to wonder...LOL!
@@hotmale5221 well isn't that the sign of a true mythology. It is actually a shame the Tolkien estate guards what is considered canon so closely as it goes completely against the idea of mythology.
Mythology are origin stories that change over time and are different for everyone who knows them, people give them their own spin when retelling. People nowadays seem too obsessed with 'the true story' to get the magic of a mythology. It has to be covered in mystery and shrouded in the unknown; after all it's mythology, not history. The two usually overlap but descerning the history from mythology is difficult and usually imprecise. Look, for example, at all the effort historians have gone through to find the real city of Troy.
I didn't know Wolfgang Puck was such a LOTR fan
Why tom bombadil wasn't more usefull? I know his like nature and he dont fight but why he dont help the istari and others with his knowlage of the world?
Great video Stay awsome!
I write the question down. It's also Difficult question, but I plan on doing a video about him in the near future anyway.
PS: Thank you, I'll try :)
Tom Bombadil did render aid in his own way when he aided the hobbits. But as a possible Maier, I believe he was forbidden to act directly by the Valar. The use of his abilities would have seriously upset the balance of natural life in Middle Earth. Especially seeing he had more power and dominance of will than the One Ring.
Tom IMO was lord of his manor and old reflection of Tolkien's time; A man's rule ends at his property.
It was a tree limb....the Istair did not need a magic stick. …….Can we ask where did he get his magic pointy hat back ?
Wizard/shaman staff's are upside down little trees. The roots are connected to the upper realm and the wizard/shaman brings the power and wisdom down to the rest of us. The fancy staff's in the movies are obviously designed to look more magical instead of based on real mystical tools.
oh pretty interesting point 👍
Gandalf has been around for a long time if he doesn't know how to make a new staff by now than he's not a very good wizard
I think part of the reason they are old men is so they won't be tempted to use their physical might but only use it in defense. Saruman gets around this by growing an army to fight for him.
They also took the form of old men to fit in better and appear as Wise to mortal men in MIddle-Earth. If they arrived in their angelic form they'd scare off a majority of the peoples.
in the book it says they took the form of old men, not weak, but strong
@@Reisboy_PhD In the Silmarillian? I found this passage "...they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. They came therefore in the shapes of Men, though they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand."
why is it that such iconic lines are always remembered incorrectly (vader to luke, gandalf to the balrog)
Did I quote a line wrong? For LotR Quotes sometimes the lines are slightly different in the book (I usually go with the book quote). I guess when you haven't seen scene for a long time you mind changes it a bit in it's memory and in social media other people have this too and quite it wrong, so the effect gets amplified because you read the wrong quote a lot.
PS: I'm also bad a memorizing quotes precisely.
ThePhilosophersGames no no not you! i was wondering aloud simply bc ppl often forget “you shall not pass” was the second line from gandalf (therefore not the only), and “i am your father, luke” is the line i believe; not the one most quote as “luke, i am your father”. nothing at all to do w you, your vids are fantastic!
Gandalf's new white staff was destroyed by the Witch King in battle for Minas Tirith in Return of the King, yet when he was leaving for the undying lands with Bilbo, Frodo and the Elves he has it back somehow. Was it this way in the book?
This does not happen in the books. The Witchking has to shift his focus and just flies away. What is also interesting to to note: this scene (staff gets destroyed) is as far as I know only in the extended cut. Also as explained in the video, Gandalf can get or make a new staff as long as he stays true to his mission too.
Thank you!
his staff did brake in the movie when he slammed it down it brock at the bottom
In Khazad-dûm/Moria? No it was still intact after slamming it on the ground.
th-cam.com/video/mJZZNHekEQw/w-d-xo.html
Gandalf actually went up to her an was like, " you kno everytime you die and resurect you gain 5 inches and I was no slouch before I died 😏😎😈
wow ^^'
It seems a bit unfair as to why they aren't allowed to use their full power when enemies like Sauron and Saruman clearly don't hesitate in doing so.
Mr Herridge if saruman could have used his full power/potential he would defeat sauron easily but then he would be the dark lord. The valar/eru didn’t wanted a next dark lord to rise so they became advisors and guiders.
There was a rule that the istari only could use there power on the level of the opponent to some extend. Thats why you see gandalf uses magic against the balrog and the nazgul and fighting with sword against orcs.
What about when Gandalf borrows Radagasts staff and Radagast tells him "It works, you just have to fiddle with the top." Then later when going into battle he tries to do what he did against the balrog and bangs the staff on the ground, twice, and it won't work because Radagasts staff isn't working properly?
I don't think that they would borrow staffs ^^
Was this just a liberty taken by the film makers then? I just rewatched the hobbit trilogy extended cut and Radagast loans his staff to Gandalf
Yes, Radagast is only mentioned by Bëorn once in the Hobbit book and the Dol Guldur story is actually from the LotR Appendices, but Radagast does not appear in it. Interestingly Radagast actually appears in the LotR main story very shortly (he gives Gandalf message from Saruman to meet with the White Wizard in Isengard). But not mention of Radagast's staff.
Ahh ok so basically it's a case of the Movie straying away from the truth, possibly misrepresenting the nature of the Staffs for what ever reason. Of course I would always side with the books and Tolkens original vision. Ty
How did he get it back from Saruman after being rescued by the eagle from the top of Orphanc? At that time, he was still Gandalf the Grey and at the council at Rivendell, he's got his staff (at least in the movie)...
Great channel btw - very informative and entertaining 👌
Thank you, happy you like it :) The answer is probably very unspectacular, but in the book Gandalf simply does not lose his staff. He is led by "them" (I assume Saruman and some guards) up to the tower over a narrow stair and has to stay there. In a dream/vision Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house he sees how Gandalf is picked up by a Great Eagle at night and he also his staff is mentioned in this dream/vision. Then Gwaihir flew him to Edoras (Rohan), where Gandalf took Shadowfax and rode back to the Shire from there. I think the next mention of his staff is in Rivendell during the council. But it seems he never lost his staff there and the films just porreyed it very differently.
I think I mention it in my LotR films and books references and differences series, if you are interested. But I dont know what episode. I think it's in episode 12 or 13:
th-cam.com/play/PLvqIed90tYZoiZZ-mAGxp6NnUrdURe0Uq.html
i have tried to make it through the silmarillion so many times. perhaps i’ll try again to better understand this all
can you analyze shelob's connection to sauron in the books, movies and games?
Noted it. In case you can't wait, I have a bit of it in my SoW lore comparison video: th-cam.com/video/Y-gvR7ioJjA/w-d-xo.html (there should be times in the description)
this is why the 2 blue wizards are gandalf and radagast
Lady Galadriel, more beautiful than Arwen could ever hope to be.