Brazing Aluminium - Successes & Failures
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Brazing a simple aluminium joint is easy enough but the rest didn't quite go to plan!
I am going to build a tool case and thought it might be interesting to experiment with aluminium as a material.
Aluminium Brazing rods
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Looked like you didn't clean the joints at all before soldering . Try stainless steel brush.
De-oxidizing the material as you go is critical with this type of rod. If you don't do this, with either flux or s/s wire brush you will end up with a joint full of impurities and be like a cold joint as with soldering. The result is low strength.
yeah that's what I thought.
Can you use a wire brush type disc on an angle grinder? How about steel wool?
I was wondering if flux would’ve helped these all looked like cold solder joints to me haha
Especially when he said solder sits on top. Flux is what ya need to suck solder in!1!!
If you clean all the surfaces thoroughly as mentioned many times already and add a small angle piece on the inside to give more surface area for the pieces to bond to each other, it might work a lot better.
The comments on this video are very helpful. Thanks everyone!
Braze (solder) joints preferably need an overlap to work properly and have strength.
With most materials, but especially with aluminium, they need the oxide cleaned off before brazing/soldering.
Aluminium is a heat sink, therefore heat will dissipate quickly to other areas resulting in the melting of previous brazes/solders.The other result is that the material cools quickly when heat is removed, meaning that the braze/solder doesn't pass into the joint as well.
However, for the project that you were trying, the lack of overlap between the materials is the reason for the utter failure. Look at bicycles... all brazed bicycle tubes are fitted into lugs because brazing needs overlaps to gain joint strength. Welds, on the other hand, do not have this requirement and the parts are butted together. In your project, you were trying to create an object with structural integrity by joining the thinest edge to the thinest edge with braze/solder - not going to work or not going to work well. Just planning to cut your pieces longer and have the vertical piece seated within the horizontal piece would have resulted in a stronger brazed/soldered joint.
Aluminum brazing produces a strong joint as long as you know enough to first clean the weld zone and use flux
What’s flux
@@xero3965 Its a chemical cleaning agent (usually a thick paste or gel) that will also keep the metal your working on from oxidizing while brazing/soldering it. Additionally it also enhances the flow-ability of the braze or solder material. After you physically clean your joint from grease and oxidation you apply it to the area you are going to braze or solder.
Cpt Adama is there a video I can find to watch this process? I have an aluminum skid plate that is pretty thick and has a crack in it. I want to make sure I do it correct before I ride my ATV again. Thank you!
You must prep the aluminum with a brand new stainless wire brush (one never used with any other material than aluminum). I like to use stainless wire brushes with a Dremel, much quicker and efficient than doing it by hand. I think also if you were to make a jig to hold the pieces together, they wouldn't have fallen apart.
A clean with acetone goes well too.
ive only brazed steel and it held well, i wonder if you didn't get things hot enough to fuse properly
Question, could you use Heatsinks to protect joints that are say an inch apart? Going to try and make an aluminium rod rc car frame!
Thanks for sharing. Not technically brazing as that involves brass, it's much more like (if not actually) soldering. And as others have said, you need to clean the oxide layer off (wire brush or abrasive paper), and some kind of flux to stop the metal oxidizing as you heat it.
Thanks. I ran into the exact same issues. For small fixes it's great but for something more complex (I was doing something very similar to you) it's very frustrating.
I know it can be done. But it's almost an art. Actual brazing is used on steel to build bikes. But it takes good equipment, prep, and technique. I found the problem with lower temp propane setups take too long and run the risk of oxidizing the surface and desoldering parts close by.
This is why many jump to straight up welding if they have the equipment and this process not being that popular. With the investment required it's easier to just whip put a welder and end up with a stronger bond anyway.
Try mapp gas of you haven't yet and look into a flux. And spend a min preheating the surrounding metal so heat gets sucked away from your desired spot slower and the desired spot gets to temp quicker. Many will brush the surface a second time after heating it up. Also a lot more practice.
OK I watched a guy last night he used firstly sandpaper then a good going over. witha a good stainless steel brush then acetone to clean up. He then proceeded to braze to thickish pieces of aluminium at right angles to each other and then he beat on it with a 2 pound hammer for quite some time before it eventually gave way. You need to clean all surface thoroughly before brazing.
Thanks for vid. I am studying this because I hope to build and aluminum petrol tanks for my motorbike using just brazing. Just from my initial impression based on a few vids, it seems to be essential that you 1) de-oxidize the area first by wiping it down or using a steel brush and, 2) use flux first and then the brazing rod. Do you think it would be worth another go?
I am going to give this another go sometime soon, as a number of people have pointed out cleaning the area is essential so it's quite likely I could have done a better job with this.
Arthur Guy you done a good job you made a attempt which is more than some do. If you give up to easy you will never succeed at anything you do. Anything new you do is always something that you got to learn. A person that has been brazing for 30 years is going to know a lot more about brazing than someone that hasn’t done it a day in his life but the 30 year man had to start somewhere because he didn’t wake up on day and say hey I know how to braze he had to learn as well and if he has been doing it for 30 years I’m sure he didn’t up when something didn’t go the way he planned it. Good friend of mine once told me there is never any problems but only solutions I live by that every day now after he told me that about six years ago it makes since. Something goes wrong always got to find a solution to fix what is wrong. Keep up the videos and keep them coming.
Aluminium has a natural top layer of oxidation and if not removed it takes ages to preheat or create fusion both sides. Bad call for ruling it out but you can always buy a $600 tig welder i guess...
I think you are probably correct in your conclusions.. but I think also your joints are not as thoroughly heated as they should be.. applying heat after the "solder" has flowed on.. should allow it to be a smooth clean joint, that adheres better.. at least I see that in other videos.. where they pre-heat the metal.. and also leave heat on longer.
Very useful... thanks ... subbed ;-)
Fantastic insight! Thank you!
I like I would like to lern some thing like that
I am thinking this is simply a weakness of light aluminum, if you braze steel it is extremely strong, maybe not as strong as a weld but very strong, so it is a material "thing".
Why not just learn to weld
The only thing that is a failure is this guy lol.... He didn't do anything to prepare the aluminum for brazing. Plus you don't braze a 3way joint like he did.
Perhaps you also could have brazed three corner junctions at the same time since you know doing it later will melt the previous connection. Make a jig to hold 3 sections together...oh and de-oxidize.
Interesting.
Perhaps your lack of strength/penetration was because you didn't seem to do any de-oxydising to the surfaces/edges to be brazed.
Having made thousands of brass/steel brazes in a commercial environment I knew what I meant, but perhaps did not express it well, To spell it out to the nth degree, when I said penetration I did not mean into the parent metal as in welding, I meant into the joint as in capillary action.... drawn between the pieces of metal. If the edges were not clean they might help to keep the rod from flowing into the joint.
I did a similar thing a few years back, oxidation was a real problem but I came across some rods from ebay that contained flux and they worked fine, but they are not available now, also the amount of buckling and expansion was greater than I expected. This video makes it look easier than it really is
Certainly a flux would aid the process, and reduce the need for much of the cleaning. I can't remember the basic components, a little research should provide a suitable solution. Until one develops the "skill" of dealing with a new material it is always going to be more down to luck whether the end result is good. Practice makes perfect. In many cases by the time one completes a project one has learned the skill that was evading you at the start. Example, I used to mig weld 22 guage galvanised steel in a host of different and difficult locations on a production line. Because the men I worked along side were very practised at the work they had the amps and wire speed set up to ridiculous levels so any new worker really struggled. Usually running a weld about a foot long only to see it drop to the floor below. Very quickly I learned the technique and picked up the pace of my work to match theirs, running perfect beads at break neck speed.
Capn Pugwash Thanks for your clarification regarding this method of brazing. Im gonna try this at some point.
There are a lot of crappy aluminum brazing/welding ros on the market. There is a technique to make them work well though.
The AlO2 layer keeps the cheap rods from bonding. But. If you scrub the rod on the metal while it is hot, it will dig below the oxide layer and start to wet out the aluminum. Joints formed this way can be quite strong.
There is a quite narrow temperature window that these rods work at. Unlike steel, when having trouble with complex joints, the answer is not more heat.
Watch some of the better video's to get better instruction. I like MuggyWeld #5 and Blue Demon 3 Way rods and their videos are quite good.
Very important to sand off the anodizing otherwise you are wasting your time. If you don't clean the anodizing it would be equivalent to expecting glue to stick to wax.
with the information i have i can tell you you probably need to scratch the aluminium under the added metal with a sharp (also hot) object , so some of the oxidation is removed under there (can't grow back since it's covered) for a more descent bonding
you didn't prep the corners...your suppose to sand the corners.
and clean them with acetone
A live and learn vid. With the help of the comments this was a great vid to get to know some do's and don't s
Looks like you didn't thoroughly clean everything or get the aluminum hot enough to fuse the rods to the base metal.
Don’t get me wrong on this but you took time to demonstrate how to braze and post it on TH-cam which I have respect for you in doing that. With that being said I would like to a suggestion on brazing a butt joint or two pieces of aluminum together instead of filling a gap where you cut it to make a 90° bend. On the two pieces you cut off and now wanting to make a butt point by brazing the two together. Try chamfering ends of the aluminum to allow a channel for the brazing material. Also try to scuff up all surfaces that you are going to be brazing to and remove any oxidization and oils that are on the aluminum. See if you get a better bond and stronger joints. I saw in your video that you never scuffed and surface on the frame you brazed or the butt joints you tried to do. Just use a good stainless steel wire brush to scuff up the brazing areas and you should get a better bond. Again I’m not trying to down you in anyway on what you are doing. I’m simply trying to help you. So good job and the videos you have posted. People like you do make a difference. God bless.
I'm almost glad he made the mistakes/errors because of all the useful comments - I wonder if more videos shouldn't be made like this ??
you could have used a metal brush or sand paper first to deoxydize the surfaces then heat it..joining more than 2 parts is easier if you would have melted some alum rod on joining surfaces then clamp them prior to heating and brazing..
Did you clean the surfaces using a wire brush and acetone ???
Get a TIG welder.. scrap the brazing rod..
That a good method, the problem is you. You are not a welder.
You need to clean the joint area with an abrasive!
@5:02 Unlike what? Welds? I can't make out what you said.
I have been trying to do the same but I still haven't found an easy way to make structures from angle aluminum (besides riveting them together or course). The corners never line up neatly no matter how careful I am with the hacksaw, there is always a gap due to the radius of the bend and bending the corner a couple of times fatigues the aluminum so fast it often cracks or breaks. I haven't tried butt joints because I don't like sharp corners.
Those look like some weak joints. According to the manufacturer the weld should be stronger than the surrounding material but it looks like this isn't the case. Did you use flux?
+papalevies that's right, a weld.
Brazing isn't welding which is why the joints were so weak.
Brazing has its place but this isn't it!
what grade aluminium did you use
Road case....
what is the rod you are using?
Didn't really test the strength
Wow do I need help! I need to solder an aluminum bar that is very thin, if it helps you understand, I'm soldering one of those Halloween animated figures that use the black aluminum
poles to keep the costume upright. I cracked the pole at a "T" junction. I tried solder but it's just too thin and falls right through (the kind used for electrical soldering) but the
bar in your video will be far too thick to work with. What can I heat up to fill the crack and repair the break once it cools? Thanks so much
I didn't see any preparation. You brazed over whatever God knows was on that aluminum. Key to success is preparation. Gives the brazing technique a bad rap, or, was that your goal? No brushing, no chemical cleaners, not even scouring. Go do it right, then come back.. Not making fun, just stating the obvious
ALUMINIUM
Granted that the type of joints you tried to braze are not the most suitable for brazing, based on what I have seen on other youtube videos you are not doing it correctly. The strength achieved in other videos are incredible, I have these comments/questions/thoughts: 1. you didn't clean the metal properly, you at least didn't show the cleaning in the video, since aluminium forms an oxide layer with a ridiculously speed proper cleaning of the surface to be brazed is critical. 2. I think the proper way of doing this is first wetting both/all surfaces that is going to be joined and then when all parts are properly wet then put them together and apply heat and possibly more brazing rod, this depends on what actual product you are using, cheap brazing rods are obviously not reliable. 3. What brazing rod did you use? because all brazing rods are not created equal(that's a huge understatement), using high-quality brazing rods might actually allow you to do what you tried to do(although, as said the but joints you tried are not the ideal joints for brazing but with proper rods and proper procedure I believe it could have been done successfully, successfully doesn't mean creating an impressive amount of structural strength compared to a weld or a solid construction of the base materiel, if you did re-think your design a little to create overlapping of the surfaces then you would be able to braze a construction which would display some structural strength). Please note that I have no experience brazing but I am doing my research preparing to use aluminium brazing rods for an upcoming project and these thoughts just jumped out from what I have learned so far. Regards
There are high- temperature resistant epoxy glues, which are sold in Amazon, that bond metal to metal. Have you ever tried those glues?
Are flux cored rods better than using separate flux with non flux cored rods
It doesn't look like you cleaned your pieces. No way solder is going to bond to aluminum oxide or oils. Clean with acetone, then sand (hard), then clean again with acetone. Oh, and clean your rods.
Because you don't prepare your material before brazing you get bad results... Please re-do this video properly rather than putting others off using this method.
I would have overlapped the raising joints. This way I get more welding points per joint and finally I wud not spare much except be more solder per joint
when ripping apart the part at 5:05 you had the end of it properly brazed that the metal ripped before the braze, you have to chemically clean the surface, tin it then add your tube and use your rod, aluminum gets a bad rep because of its fast oxidizing properties when in reality its almost always user error
Those rods in the Amazon link are a rip off and don't look genuine. You get that proper make on eBay for much less.
Beveling the joints and smaller gaps should help in addition the cleaning others mentioned.
bro you are a noob with this stuff, clean your parts thats why its not sticking
Can I use butane instead of propane 🙄
Lol that's anodized aluminum. You have to clean it first.
Still fail.. im not sure why.. not to hot maybe
Great intro, I have brazed steel and brass with decent results. I want to develop some aluminum brazing skills. I can see temperature is everything. I've learned the hard way that Mapp gas will melt brass fittings. Thanks.
You did not use Flux, nor did you thoroughly clean the Aluminium before attempting the brazing. Get yourself some Flux (around £5 a jar) and a brass or stainless steel wire brush, it's all in the prep. the more you put in, the better the results-Good Luck!
What kind of flux? Just general flux or is there aluminium specific flux?
Low temperature is key to success for brazing aluminium, I will be trying Uniweld's Uni4300 soon as it claims a temperature of only 500 Farenheit, as the melting point of aluminium is over 1200 F this should be suitable for small or thin aluminium parts
Hi, thanks for the video - very informative. I am building something simular, except plan to use sheet aluminum for the panel instead of wood, for durable suitcase. Probably need a 3-way jig to handle those joints, maybe more practice. Nice to see the problems and what to look out for.
Can I use er 4043 or er 4047 for the rods ?
Nice job. THANKS FOR SHARING.
Good job mujhe bhi rakh lo bhai indiy me nahi hota
All the below.
No finishing
nice to see u again arthur
Will have to try it out.
Thank you for your willingness to share. I learned.
Thanks enjoy thanksgiving Sheckote
Enjoy what?
Maybe dont do videos on things you havent a clue about
Agreed, don't comment when you didn't follow that correct process. Disappointed video😲😲
Really enjoy your videos. You have a ton of knowledge. Plenty of used welders out there. Learn how to TIG weld and you'll have another skill for life.
I have been tempted by a tig welder for a while now, I have used mig welders quite a bit but I think a tig welder would be a great tool to have for its flexibility with materials.
Never thought about a second hand one before though, very tempting!
Slop joints because they weren’t cleaned. Cleaning is critical!
Stainless steel brush (& don’t touch them with your oily fingers), & flux to prevent oxidization on the surface and to get a good “wetting” action