Non believers will come into a church meeting and expect believers to pray to God and for each other, but what is not expected by the unbelieving visitor is people being overwhelmed with loud outbursts of emotion, doing the carpet worm, shaking and laughing out loud and acting drunk, people praying loudly in other tongues , people lining up to walk through a fire tunnel, this is one of the reasons non believers don’t feel safe in a modern day charismatic meeting., it doesn’t feel safe or make any sense.
Years and years ago way before I was a believer, a co-worker (who I had the hots for) invited me to her church. I went to church some as a child but this was my first time being in a charismatic church. The entire congregation was speaking in tongues and falling out and honestly it freaked me out. This poor girl was so disappointed that I wasn't slain in the Spirit. And so was I actually. I didn't go to church again for over 20 years.
Why do you feel as though you speak for unbelievers? Just because you feel ashamed of the movement of the spirit doesn’t mean an unbeliever will feel “unsafe”.
I agree man, I used to wrestle with inviting my family to my old church because what is outright displayed is just pure madness. Definitely a sense of cultic behavior.
I grew up in an IPHC church. The direction the charismatic movement has gone since then is why I now attend a Presbyterian church. I believe in Biblical gifts (prophesy, tongues, healings), but the actions of the charismatic movement make me feel uneasy.
Personally, for me, although I’ve been Charismatic for 40 years, I would never ever let a bunch of people (especially if I did not know them extremely well) lay hands on me. It seems difficult to discern what needs to be prayed, whether they need deliverance, just prayer, or healing. Laying on of hands is too special and too sacred to make that kind noisome spectacle.
I came to that same conclusion after I witnessed the demonic take a hold of some in my first fellowship after they indulged themselves in Todd Bentley's transferable anointing. Years later I was a guest in a small gathering and the leader asked everybody to place a hand on the shoulder of the person next to them and pray a blessing. I knew instantly that I was not to get involved and said so to the group. A few weeks after my visit, the leader came to me and told me that it had since transpired that the woman who was to lay a hand on me had confessed to being a witch. She wasn't there to cause trouble and did indeed want deliverance, but the discernment God gave me was an encouragement to that leader to seek discernment himself.
I am so glad you had the discernment to resist that! I love joyful praise but “my Father’s house shall be a house of prayer” seems to require a little more serious holiness before Him.
@@daniell9268 Holy Spirit does not need anyone else to tell me things. I never reject Holy Spirit! He can talk to me any time any place. I don’t have to get worked up emotionally to hear him. I already have relationship with him and he speaks to me in that still, small voice, through the Word of God, and through the wisdom of a multitude of counselors. I hear his voice and seek him early while he may be found. I think of church as Jesus did: “My Father’s house shall be a house of prayer.” I am a big proponent of the idea “do things decently and in order.”
@@daniell9268 we need discernment. Derek Princes book Protection against deception is good on discerning the Holy Spirit. He was on stage with William Branham and discerned that he moved in a demonic spirit... Bethel /bill johnson are a continuation of William Branham thro the kansas city prophets. All sorts of manifestations can come through the Holy Spirit but I dont believe he takes people over, pinning them to the floor etc... The HS produces self control, He is holy so nothing flippant or vulgar comes from Him. He convicts of sin... Much of what you see is coming out of dominion theology (william branham), now and now of the kingdom before Jesus returns. the emphasis is on more power now that typically goes beyond scripture and rails against Jesus beattitudes and sermon on the mount (eg love your enemies, dont curse them). In the end it produces a counterfeit kingdom... which our flesh is very at home with, power and wealth...
it is more advantageous for the enemy to infiltrate the church through “good” intentions than through blatant lies. “Try the spirits whether they be of God.” “Bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.”
There are a lot of complex issues here and you guys to do a great job of parsing out some of these. Part of the problem from my perspective is that there is too great a division between "flesh" and the "spirit" vis a vis manifestation is being asserted here. I fell under the power of the Spirit in Charismatic style meetings many times. After a while I began to question if I was cooperating with it in some way. I would feel an "anointing" and a gentle pressure and would fall down and rest in the Spirit. I started to experiment if I could resist the urge to fall and found that I could often. My conclusion was that in many cases (not all) the falling down (being "slayed") was a ritualized response to some degree to a heightened influx of divine energies--the Holy Spirit, anointing etc. It is a participation of our body in our experience of these divine energies. It is a bit psychosomatic. But rather than thinking this or was a bad thing I came to realize that this is a ritualized communal form of participation in God not unlike receiving Sacraments or participating in Worship. Our flesh becoming plastic to the influx of the Holy Spirit seems to me a harbinger of the Resurrection. It is allowing God greater purchase on us.
I went to a pentecostal Bible where they liked to do prayer tunnels. I really disliked them. Most of it was people with sweaty hands smacking me on the head, messing up my hair while yelling phrases like 'more, touch, fire!' It seems to me that Biblical laying on of hands was for a purpose or commissioning. I'd rather thoughtful and specific prayer than a smack on the head while yelling clichés.
LOL !! 😀 - well the smack on the end obviously knocked some sense into you !! LOL !! God works in mysterious ways. 🙂 ..the problem is where it all comes from, Toronto blessing, Rodney Howard-Brown (is the Holy Spirit) and closely associated with Bethel and their dominion theology and bringing new age into the church through their book The Physics of Heaven.. - I dont think calling for more fire is from God. Even in Acts 4 they prayed for boldness to witness, they didnt order God around by calling more fire down !! - who is responding I ask myself !!
Lol! Hearing a theological discussion about fire tunnels gives me so much joy. 😂 “Holy Ghost car wash” “I prayed for you and you did the worm, what happened?” 😂 From my experience all manifestations should be discerned yet not over dictated. Some things people call the Holy Spirit and say “more” to is really demonic manifestation. Some people really want attention (maybe subconsciously). I will say laying on of hands and impartation is very real and I have experienced that. I received tongues and then prayed for my dads back that evening (then agnostic). His back was immediately healed and I got to baptize him 3 years ago. 🙌 We can’t fear experiencing God and our Father will not give us a stone when we ask for bread. If we are seeking Jesus, the Holy Spirit will come meet with us and increase our boldness to be witnesses. Doing the worm shouldn’t be the pursuit, Jesus should be. 😂
Loved your commentary on experiencing God in our mind and physically. Expectation for being touched by God to bless Him and the body of Christ. Not just to week after week flop around with no fruit.
That was refreshing. I grew up in a Pentecostal context and was pressured unto faking that experience on more than one occasion. And similar to Josh, I couldn't understand those manifesting ecstatic experiences who were living in sin. Two serious issues that should be addressed.
You guys did a great job balancing it out. These kind of topics can be so lop sided. Great point Josh about God giving us emotions, and I'd say even given us opportunity to experience pleasurable sensations in our physical body, for the ultimate purpose of worshiping God, not serve the flesh.
As humans, we tend to stick with the familiar or stick with what worked before. For example, someone might have yelled “fire“ under the unction of the Holy Spirit, and it worked then, and then we assume we can formulaically on demand make it work again and again. One thing we know about God is that He does things differently all the time, does things that seem non sequitor to us, and shakes things up: religious, presumptious, and habitual practices are no bueno with God, no matter what form they take.
..where do the apostles command power to come down.. in acts 4 they pray to God for boldness and supernatural power to witness & heal and he responds.. but they dont command it... ..that is to be little Gods in our own right, not submitting to God but using his power (or the other side) independently of Him... that was the first sin in the garden...
It’s foolishness, an emotional display to make the participants feel better and go home with a bit of a spiritual buzz. At best it’s part of the contemporary western playing at church…it’s deeper roots are demonic deception. Pastor/minister/elder: “ l feel the Lord say let’s do a fire tunnel this morning..” Church: “ yea, I love these…I hope I feel something” Pastor/minister/elder. We need to clean house, individually and corporately, look deeply into our own hearts and at our relationships and allow The Holy Spirit in to convict us of sin.” Church: (muttering) This guy needs to lighten up, maybe wave a flag or something, I like the other guy better he’s so kind and has funny stories.
Ive never done or seen fire tunnels before but from what i hear I think fire tunnels are just a nice visual demonstration of your community showing their spiritual support for people. Its a creative way to pray which i think in that creativity show an earnest want to pray. Yes the hype itself could be vain during prayer, but if you see many people excited about praying for you and doing so with a creative expression that feels honest to them, than i see it as a way to uplift other members of a church community and while the “hype” may feel unnecessary, being excited for people may uplift other members and help them feel confident in carrying their daily crosses reminded that theyre not alone. Do i see potential for fire tunnels to breed vain “charismatic” intentions? ABSOLUTELY. But do i also think its reasonable to want to do a fun community-building activity involving prayer and showing support for other brothers/sisters in Christ? Also yes! Any chance for more prayer and fellowship is great in my opinion
all this said yet you’ve never seen or been involved with fire tuneless practice but you think it might be a nice visual. I would suggest you seek spiritual discernment before you make unqualified statements like this one.
@@markshaneh i dont claim to be qualified i’ve simply listed the pros and cons that I see for this type of prayer. I see no definitive necessity for a prayer tunnel and I listed some cons as to why it could lead to something else. Although, im optimistic that the overall idea behind them is meant with intention to give glory to God which i think could lead to a positive attitude to the body of Christ. I posted my opinion to invite discussion from people that may actually be qualified to weigh in on the position. I do not claim that they are good or bad, but i do not see them as inherently bad. If you’re suggesting that they are or are not objectively bad then id love to hear why you’d think so. In the meantime, while i do have a perspective on the matter i do not claim with certainty on the matter which is why I do not personally involve myself with these prayer tunnels. But i don’t think i need to have a qualification to post what i /think/ a prayer circle might entail because that is how we can get discussion going to learn in the first place. If someone who has been involved in prayer tunnels has objections to what I’ve commented, I’d love to invite them to go ahead and explain why so that I may learn, but I never claimed authority over people with such experience, so I apologize if that was an inference that could be communicated from my previous comment.
..the problem is they come from the Toronto blessing which came through Rodney howard brown in the 1990's. I dont believe he moves in the HS but something else... It is not normal prayer, people falling down out of control is not how the HS operates as the fruit of the HS is self control, he convicts of sin... rolling around the floor out of control in fits of uncontrolled luaghter... is God luaghing at the state of the church.. I beleive the HS can manifest in all sorts of ways but He doesnt take people over against their will. God sends drunkeness (without alchohol) on people as judgement. At pentecost they were not incompacitated, Peter got up and gave an eloquent sermon... The HS moves Gods kingdom forward, people cannot participate in that if they are incompacitated.. Rodney Howard-Brown describes his experience of the HS as electricity that sends him out of control. Bill Johnson does the same in their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven (ch14 whole lot of shakin going on). I think the HS can manifest in all sorts of ways, even as electricity (for healing) but not if you are out of control (He doesnt do that).
I like how you guys say it: pastor the moment. There's a lot of people who think that the spiritual part of christianity is something that cannot be discerned or understood, but just screaming "fireeee" and letting go. But I believe Paul teaches that we can study spiritual gifts, learn and grow.
Thoughts: (1) Why judge the value or effectiveness of prayer by seeing people fall over or shake…is this fruit ? (2) There are demonic influences bought to church (some deliberately) that are in need of real discernment and prayer (or protection) from mature members of the body who have a level of sanctification in their own lives. (3) Do due diligence on occult practices and manifestations or gnostic beliefs. “Test the spirits” (4) Ask why western Christianity needs a charismatic “show” when God seeks a “broken spirit and a contrite heart.”
Holy Spirit can do whatever He wants, but when leadership brings hype so someone has an experience, that is sin. Reliance on experiences in the Church is why so many Christians deconstruct\fall away. That shallow faith is not built on relationship with Jesus. I appreciate what you gents said about taking some sort of pause to defuse the emotional stimulus.
..yes the HS can do whatever he wants. Are they going to the HS though... even the disciples prayed to God for more power to witness in Acts 4, they did not call fire down..
Fire tunnels !!! Seriously !! Our hearts need to be made flesh through contrition and honest prayerful repentance, producing not casual regret but godly sorrow. A fire tunnel is more likely to induce a group display of emotionalism than lasting and effective change. Others running round “praying for them ” How do you know who’s doing that is suitable or commissioned to do it ? 1 Timothy 5: 22. “ Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.”
Laying on of hands isn't the issue, though. The conservative Presbyterian churches I attended installed elders in such prayer. Fire tunnels feel more like sensation and spectacle.
You talk about the Gifts of the Spirit but that needs to be balanced with the Fruit of the Spirit. I don't find anywhere in the Bible talking about twitching, falling out, yelling etc. as being any gift or fruit of the Spirit. And being prayed for using an efficient "fire tunnel" is so impersonal. Just how I want to be prayed for. "Let's see how quick we can get through this".
If ppl could just understand. When the Holy Spirit is touching you… you know it’s “of God”. It’s so different for those that are experiencing the many diff manifestations that may occur. Yet Believers know that growth is long term… I always learned Miracles are instant.. healing often takes time. That includes healing our lives, minds, bodies etc
When you see people yelling , rolling , on the floor, it's something that Christians should be avoiding. I think that when you see the bizarre behaviors in a church then you see the rotton fruits.
Our elderly ladies would perform the "Pyramid of Propitiation". Phylis fell off and dislocated her plastic hip AGAIN. We had to limit them to 7 people high after that. 7 is a good number.
I have gone ahead and deleted my prior comment. This is a reminder that social media and the like are no place for conversation since it is too easy for there to be misunderstanding, and it is 10 times harder to clear things up online than it is in person. Perhaps it was the way I stated my thoughts that was the issue since I agreed with most everything that was said in the video. I love listening to Remnant Radio and will continue to do so and encourage others to do the same, but I will refrain from commenting going forward. If we were talking face to face, I think we would find we are far more in agreement than the “No, not true” comment would indicate but as I said online is a horrible way to communicate. Keep up the great work you are doing!
I have had two intense encounters with the Holy Spirit / the presence of God and can understand why someone may fall under the weight of that glory, but something that always comes to mind in the “slain in the Spirit” conversation is: how can uncontrollable shaking, or falling be from God’s Spirit when self control is fruit of the Spirit?
I saw one a few years ago in OKC at a conference... It was confusing what was happening...it seemed people were yelling, laughing...anyway I opted out! 😂 At the same conference I had someone pray for me & I was healed from fits of hiccups. So I believe they meant well, but it definitely wasn't my cup of tea! 💁🏼♀️😂
Hey Josh! This is Rudia, from S.Korea, remember me right? Just wanna say thank you so much for making this episode. I felt like you're speaking from my heart hahaha.
Is the Church so bored they need to come up with new ways to pray? I'm sure God is more than willing to give them stuff to do. Regardless, pretty soon, the Church won't have time for silly things like "Fire Tunnels".
@@healingthroughchrist1988 - with the HS moving, were people convicted of sin, was the gospel preached... was Jesus elevated, any idea what the fruit in peoples lives was after that.... ...was there an emphasis on power rather than character there... did it end up producing the opposite to Jesus upside down kingdom, the beattitudes and the sermon on the mount... ..did it produce the lamb nature... or was it power and wealth grabbing..
@@JuliexSteadman The ones I've been to was at the end of the service after preaching. And you could feel the manifest presence of God and it was very strong. Personal discomfort is not discernment. Sometimes personal discomfort is caused by our own bias and false assumptions. The Bible tells us to test the spirit, not see if there's any personal discomfort. Even if there's been spiritual abuse with fire tunnels, that don't make fire tunnels inherently bad. Any authentic move of God always brings glory to God. A fire tunnel is nothing more than a prayer change. Those who criticize it associate fire with judgment. That's why they feel discomfort in their spirit. But fire can also represent the Holy Spirit as we see in Acts 2:1-4. And John the baptist said Jesus will baptize with fire but I don't remember the exact verse off the top of my head. It's in the same area where John the baptist is about to baptize Jesus. Fire purifies.
The Bible says you must have an interpreter. I had some experiences in this environment with no interpretation or interpreter. Not good practice right?
I don't see that Elijah reference the same way, to me, that was full on hype. That was Elijah being like, "watch what my God's gonna do! Its soaking wet, everyone knows wet stuff doesn't burn, but guess what? My God isn't limited by the laws of nature or the common sense of man, my God can do anything!" Then bam! God does it. Radical faith does hype people up. I'm generally not a huge hype person, but Elijah on mount Carmel is one of my fave stories. His mockery of the prophets of Baal and his unwavering faith in that moment should make every Christian stand up and yell "that's the God is serve!" Lol
I have been in many services, especially at conferences, where there were fire tunnels where people go through the fire tunnel and then stand up at the end and pray for others behind them that go through. I was concerned about people getting un-Godly transfers. This is even a concern where the pastor tells everyone to pray for others around them and most people are laying hands on each other. I agree with you that the prayer should by vetted people. The prayer tunnels usually just have people getting prayer for a very short time. I could be good if a speaker wants to get a chance to pray for everyone. But often more in depth prayer is very beneficial also. And yes, the pastor who put on one of the conferences had a witch sitting next to her whispering in her ear some threatening things. I have heard it is common for witches to visit church services to infiltrate them. Sometimes they manage to get leadership positions such as head of the prayer teams or a member of the worship team. Pastors need to be aware, have discernment, and have the courage to confront. Great topic, as usual! Thank you!
This is also my concern I think this can work if all the people praying are of God and clean living a life of purity but it scares me if there are witches or Christian's that still need to get right with God in certain areas of there life. 💯TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT.
Fire tunnels is the most charismaniacal (not charismatic) thing. I wouldn't let people who I don't know touch me in a spiritual experience (transfers, occult practitioners that join the meeting, etc.).
Would you shake hands with someone you didn't know well? I am guessing you would without concern. What is the difference (not arguing but trying to understand what makes one dangerous and not the other - is it the attitude of approaching a fire tunnel to receive spiritually? )
@@gareth2736 It's the context of the interaction that is the point; shaking hands is something you might do in meeting someone. I was in a church where we had hundreds hit the altar after the message and it was out of order; people walking around laying hands on anyone, people you did not know nor did you know their maturity in the LORD. I think they covered this in the video. I worked at a ministry (very small 4-5 of us) and one morning I grabbed the hand of a co-worker during our daily prayer circle and when I grabbed her hand, it felt like something ran down my arm and up hers and she flinched and looked at me in shock. It wasn't static electricity neither.
@@Michael-dt9lo yes thats interesting... Rodney howard-brown describes his experience of the HS as electricity which makes him go out of control.. So does Bill Johnson in ch14 of their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven. My experience of the HS has been complete overwhelming joy (not luaghing) that lifted me out of my circumstances (it was like being on drugs !! but i completely had all my faculties). It lasted for a couple of months until i sinned in a certain way... then got into a wacky church (long time ago in the UK) and got totally confused... I think the HS can manifest as electricity but I dont believe He takes you over.... Terry Virgo (founder of New Frontiers church in the UK) records in his book 'No well worn paths' his experience of the HS when the Arnots (Toronto blessing /Today Catch the fire) prayed for him. He was completely out of it for 2 hours, could not get off the floor to even go to the toilet, everyone left him there - you can hear the question mark in his voice - was that the HS?
@@gareth2736 - if someone is into the other side, and they are praying for you to receive as they shake your hand, things can transfer... If i was concerned about someone i was shaking hands with i would be inwardly praying for protection.. Or if something had got me, I would command it to leave... as in Christ I have that authority....
This is related to the laying on hands. I'm ok with walking up to someone or a line of people to get praid for. I've also experienced more effective ways but also less scary looking. "Everyone who wants to pray line up and people line up not to go thru a tunnel but to one of the individuals praying and then receive the prayer. No drama. Let's just pray like normal human beings is my take-away hehe from this. Excellent. When it comes to laying on hands however I have the last year been very skeptical. Sometimes this almost stopped me from going to church sometimes even. People just invading with laying hands on and praying when I dont want that. You see there is another aspect of this you guys should be aware of. The last year I've been having to use either walking aids or a wheelchair when going out due to illness. And a wheelchair is not a normal sight in our little church. So - some few people find it their right to just go up to you and pray. I've had people ambush me from behind even. Hands heavily on the shoulders. Then praying for an eternity. Now - I am not a weak person. And I don't like to shame or offend people - so if there is a possibility that might happen I just let them do their thing. After all the prayer is a prayer - u know... maybe something good can come out of it hehe. The only problem with this is - yes I can handle it but others might not - the only problem is that the illness makes the slightest touch in the wrong place - like my shoulders- so painful. For those who suffer from the same they know what I'm talking about. You cannot see it on me. But I'm more or less in constant pain. Now that can be managed by tolerating it as long as I have control over people around me not come touching me when they feel like. A lot of talking now. Sorry. My point is - it is hard to hide that you are sick when u sit in a wheelchair. Why would I hide it? To avoid people come lay hands on me and make it worse. But problem is "everyone" wants to pray for the guy in the wheelchair. And thats not ok. They haven't heard from the spirit either many times. They just want an easy miracle. So what do I do when I hurt too much for people to touch my shoulders which is the common place to lay hands on in my church, and I need the wheelchair to sit there for a couple of hours? That's when I say many times I considered just staying home. To this day I didn't do it because I need to he with my people. And I love the church and people. But they don't always know what to do and don't do. I only say all this to REALLY underline what was discussed in the end - that it is common sense to respect people enough to ask if its ok to lay hands on - and why it is so important. Because- one might have the best intentions in the world and it still can feel like such a violation that a person might not come. Not because they were scared away but because as in my case - afraid for their condition to get worse. I've even had people being offended when I out of reflex deflect people's hands on their way to my shoulders. 😆 So guys. Remember when praying for others- it is not all about you or the setting and atmosphere - there are ten thousand different reasons to not surprise people with praying for them and laying hands on them before u asked. And if you are in a more one on one situation maybe ask if its and also ask if they have any questions related to why hands on- because their issue might be that they don't understand it or know why - then quickly explain it. Just some tips and sharing of personal experiences, in a way too long post. So if u read it to the end and think its useful info - comment under and give your opinion or whatever. I dont need people to read what I write in that way- but I think this is very useful tips and it would be cool to know if I'm the only one thinking about this in that way or if you others have same or different opinion. 😁
You talk about fire tunnels as a Pentecostal thing. I've been part of a Pentecostal denomination for about 15 years now. Never heard the term "fire tunnel" until this episode. Do people go forward for prayer? Yes. Are there several staff pastors and board members/elders standing in a line up front to pray for people? Yes. The prayer ends, the people return to their seats. Can we please stop using Pentecostal as a curse word? Some of us can be quite normal.
..fire tunnels came out of the toronto blessing i believe, the toronto church is called 'Catch the Fire' these days... the Arnots mix with Bethel etc and their dominion theology and their further teachings can be seen in their book The Physics of Heaven.. I dont believe these fire tunnels are from God. THere is a tendencey to call down fire as Rodney Howard-Brown does and when people roll out of control, I dont think thats the HS... Protection against deception by Derek Prince is an interesting book... he was on stage with William Branham in the 1950's and discerned an evil spirit operating in him... Branham brought in dominion theology (now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns, formerly known as latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation The New Apostolic Reformation - Bethel, Bill Johnson), continued on by the Kansas City Prophets to the NAR today). They have all gone beyond scripture to get power, see Bethel's book, The Physics of Heaven.
One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control and Paul called for things to be done decently and in order. That has never been fire tunnels that's for sure. And if you change the nature of what fire tunnels have always been then it's not "fire tunnels" anymore. Demons are attracted to chaos so it's not surprising to me that they would take over such a practice.
This stuff is off the wall and not biblical. Full of hype and the flesh. Didn't Paul say with regard to church service that 1 Corinthians 14:40 [40]Let all things be done decently and in order. These types of services defend into utter chaos
If you want to confirm experiences are Holy Spirit, there should be observable change and production of fruit, holiness, etc. in the individual. It's one thing to interview a person in what they are 'feeling,experiencing,' but quite another to see if this experience draws them into deeper commitment into fellowship, growth and maturity in Jesus Christ. I've witnessed a lot of charismania and it seems a lot of people are just trying to get a 'fix' or 'high' or even worse attention. Elders/leadership should investigate behaviors during an altar call, fire tunnel, etc. to discern whether a participant is in the the flesh and needs correction or is genuinely experiencing a touchstone towards more transformational growth in Christ. Personally, I'm very careful when it comes to others praying for me, especially if they want to lay hands. In a spiritual context I've been in a prayer circle, holding hands and felt something crawl down my arm and up a person's arm next to me she even shivered and thought it was a static electricity, but I think it was spiritual.
@@joshuamitchell5481 unfortunately he got hi-jacked by the kansas city prophets who are a continuation of William Branham and his dominion theology (now and now of the kingdom before Jesus returns, formerly known as latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation The New Apostolic Reforamtion). They all go beyond scripture to get more power... Fortunately Wimber threw them out but it gave them a high profile and helped their false teaching to become main stream in the church...
I love the comment about anti-hype. I listen to different teachers and pastors about the theology of worship, some from Reformed cessationist circles, and it does seem that they are allergic to emotion.
Just listened a second time through. Many Charismatic practices/phenomena are so often automatically perceived as, or descend into, unbiblical silliness and abuse. This video talks through many of those practices (focusing on "fire tunnels" obviously) and shows some of the actual biblical and theological reasoning behind these practices and phenomena.
I have never experienced a fire tunnel, never been in a church that has done one, never witnessed one in person. All that said, it looks like what may have been created as a way of praying for lots of people quickly, has now in some, maybe the majority of cases, become something designed to illicit a response, particularly a physical response. The potential issue I see with a "fire tunnel" is that has taken on a cultural expectation that "when we do this" the Holy Spirit moves because people fall down/respond physically. It that is true, then a) its an issue with discernment over seeing something physical and always equating it to the Spirit moving and b) it's bordering on seeking to manipulate the Holy Spirit through our behaviour.
I very reluctantly entered a fire tunnel and a person, outside the tunnel, touched my head with his finger. I was slammed to the ground, it hurt, and then the room disappered. The voice said, "I did not sexually abuse you." What? As a teen I walked away from God because a priest, among others, sexually abused me and I blamed God. I wanted to be a priest but that abuse changed my mind. I ended up apologizing to God because I was too young to know that God will let us suffer as he did with Paul. I became a pastor and counselor to the abused. Sadly we will never be able to filter out all the 'hype,' but it should not stop our prayer tunnels. We can't let fear stop a move of God.
I had to luagh even though I shouldnt.. I should be crying... fire tunnels came in through the Toronto Blessing in the 1990s' which came in through Rodney Howard-Brown !! What is that power that transfers from him to other people leaving them 'out of control'...
I experienced the fire tunnel at a missionary “school” in Africa and I also witnessed the convulsing and shaking from people around me. Why do folks think they have to create their own belligerent/crazy processes? I’m a continuationist but fully understand why some folks are either cessationists or “open but cautious” when they hear/see things like that. I just don’t understand…
It's not of God. The fruit of the spirit is self control . So that cancels all the uncontrollable laughter, shaking ECT. Most of what we see today is fake or demonic.
@@daniell9268 your an apostate. The Bible says(not you or me) fruit of the Holy spirit is self control. So your Holy spirit is most likely Kundalini or something else. The word is the final authority. not your experience. 2thess talks about the apostasy your a part of.
@@daniell9268 experiencing the HS fully brings indescribable joy into your heart that has nothing to do with circumstances. I would say this is not that though... Rodney howard brown describes his experience of the HS as being electricity and he is completely out of control. Bill Johnson describes the same in their 'new age' book The PHysics of heaven (ch14 a whole lot of shakin going on). Bill Johnson is into Dominion theology which came in through William Branham. Its the now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns (formerly called latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation, the new apostolic reformation).... It produces a counterfeit kingdom because it says we can have the wealth and power now, this is the opposite to the beattitudes and Jesus sermon on the mount which says to love your enemies, not curse them... Holly Pivecs book - Counterfeit kingdom is an interesting read. Well researched but slightly muddies the water as she is a cessationist. I believe we can have the 5 fold ministry if we have small 'a' apostles (missionaries in old money) rather than big A apostles as Bill Johnson and Co believe they are, with more power than the original 12 !! And i definitely beleive in the supernatural gifts - all this stuff is the enemies attempt to hi-jack the gifts which are necessary for church growth...
Spiritual gifts are for the edifying of the church into a holy temple in the Lord. That's it. I didn't see Paul listing fire tunnels as a legitimate manifestation and if you think they glorify the Lord you need to get some reverence.
There is hype but to go on about that too much obscures what the source is. It has to be more than hype, you can see the power coming out of people like Rodney Howard-Browne (who i would say thats where fire tunnels come from). If we are commanding power, we are not submitting to God - who is answering? is that God or the other side... WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DO THE APOSTLES COMMAND POWER TO COME DOWN.
Yet the Lord May very well decide you need to shake or shout bc it’s not about you. It’s about Him. When you’ve submitted totally to Him, you’ll just go with Him. Not to please man but to submit to the Lord. God bless
@@andreab1144 the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. The Bible is truth. When the Holy Spirit has you “go with Him”, he will not go outside of Biblical standards in what he prompts/asks you to do. This is why the charismatic church needs to return to serious exploration of Biblical, *contextual* doctrine.
so i've seen & been part of "fire tunnels" - initially i was offended by them, same as some people in comments seem to be - too much "emotional excess" for church. And there have been times (& still are) when I would resist being part of them, if it does feel like its all about the hype, or trying to "work up faith" etc by the people doing it, imitating the power of God with psychosomatic pressure & emotional manipulation. That said however - if you're offended by people being physically & emotionally touched by God in a way that looks strange, you'd probably be against anything apart from quiet prayer (except for some reason most people offended by emotion in church are totally okay with emotion at a football game etc - and why? isn't God more exciting than men chasing a ball around?). And if you're okay with your kids playing in your back garden, why would God not be okay with His kids playing in His House? So discernment is probably more about individuals - and that's in any context: you could even discern that the person being all quiet on the back pew is actually hiding tons of things behind a façade of "I'm all fine"... And in a fire tunnel, i've been so touched by the power of God that i cannot walk, and in the same tunnel had someone try push me to the floor (which I was able to resist - we can resist man, but sometimes its not easy to resist God - I think of Gamaliel's warning in Acts..). So the Holy Spirit was very present, and human imitation likewise - but that didn't stop my very-much-needed experience of God in that.
I mean. To bless someone like that is ok. But some people dramaticize a lot tho.. there will always be individuals that does weird stuff "manifistation" haha.. what is real or not, only God knows :D
Those who never came across different religious practices, for them new experiences from other religions are very amusing. But those who never came across such things are highly likely to adopt different practices within their own religion. Come to India and see, all the expenses things Charismatic Penticostel are doing are not unique and already performed by some religion with different idea.
Bethel & Bill johnson completely made them popular and authorized them as being suitable for ministry.. exactly like he did w/ Todd bentley after he left his first disabled wife and kids
I would say they came in through the Toronto Blessing which came in through Rodney Howard-Brown, Randy Clark and the Arnots, 1990's (Arnots church is called Catch the fire these days). The Arnots move in close circles with Bethel etc... First video i watched of Todd Bentley (2008) he said the same angel that started William Branhams ministry started his, I immediately knew he was off. I managed to get his theology off of his web site (the few days it was up there), he was into serpent seed theology and he had some theologian justifying that it was ok to pray to angels using The Angel of the Lord from the OT (who has to be the pre-incarnate Jesus as people worship Him). And how was it that Bill Johnson etc were inaugurating Todd Bentley into a top posiiton in their organisation without knowing his theology. Either they dont care or they believe it too... Bill Johnson does want William Branhams mantle... And John Andrew Collins who was born into the Branham cult and left it about 10 years ago (aged 37) does historical research on Branham, his book, Preacher to the white hoods just about says it all... Branhams deception was breath taking, different personas and different theologies (trinity, not trinity) depending on who he was talking to and he was a preacher to the Klu Klux Klan. Derek prince who was on stage with Branham went public in his book 'protection against deception' in the 1990s to say that Branham moved in the demonic....
Fire tunnels = glorifying self You can’t justify a fire tunnel when what it deals with is experience and oddities. This show should be removed as they are opportunities for weirdness and groping. I don’t see anything in scripture that justifies this off-bible practice. And I was saved in a Pentecostal church myself. I do pray for you guys. Your upholding of John Wimber really concerns me.
..what are your concerns about John Wimber... fire tunnels come out of the toronto blessing which came out of Rodney Howard-Browne (who i think is moving in the demonic). Wimber threw the Arnots out when the weird stuff started happening as he did with the kansas city prophets...
I had lots of genuine Godly experiences walking through firetunnels or praying for people in them in the Toronto blessing and different charismatic churches. The manifestations of the Spirit can be offensive, they were in Acts 10 and with a culture thats desensitized to the offense of the cross and communion it’s interesting to see the Spirit reintroduce offenses where we get to look foolish to some while genuinely experiencing the Lord. I do think there can be problems. An example is using them on the missionfield, had a team of people do this to get prayed up in front of a group of muslims and they see any manifestation as demonic and proceeded to try and stone us. Not a great context. Also have seen dysfunctional people try and use the opportunity of a firetunnel to pray for people inappropriately where they would otherwise stand out more - but good church leadership will have oversight in place to shut this behaviour down.
Non believers will come into a church meeting and expect believers to pray to God and for each other, but what is not expected by the unbelieving visitor is people being overwhelmed with loud outbursts of emotion, doing the carpet worm, shaking and laughing out loud and acting drunk, people praying loudly in other tongues , people lining up to walk through a fire tunnel, this is one of the reasons non believers don’t feel safe in a modern day charismatic meeting., it doesn’t feel safe or make any sense.
Years and years ago way before I was a believer, a co-worker (who I had the hots for) invited me to her church. I went to church some as a child but this was my first time being in a charismatic church. The entire congregation was speaking in tongues and falling out and honestly it freaked me out. This poor girl was so disappointed that I wasn't slain in the Spirit. And so was I actually. I didn't go to church again for over 20 years.
Why do you feel as though you speak for unbelievers? Just because you feel ashamed of the movement of the spirit doesn’t mean an unbeliever will feel “unsafe”.
I agree man, I used to wrestle with inviting my family to my old church because what is outright displayed is just pure madness. Definitely a sense of cultic behavior.
That's why they are some of the fastest-growing churches
Most people that don't go to church do not attend because they are bored rather than not attending because of fire tunnels
I grew up in an IPHC church. The direction the charismatic movement has gone since then is why I now attend a Presbyterian church. I believe in Biblical gifts (prophesy, tongues, healings), but the actions of the charismatic movement make me feel uneasy.
Personally, for me, although I’ve been Charismatic for 40 years, I would never ever let a bunch of people (especially if I did not know them extremely well) lay hands on me. It seems difficult to discern what needs to be prayed, whether they need deliverance, just prayer, or healing. Laying on of hands is too special and too sacred to make that kind noisome spectacle.
I came to that same conclusion after I witnessed the demonic take a hold of some in my first fellowship after they indulged themselves in Todd Bentley's transferable anointing.
Years later I was a guest in a small gathering and the leader asked everybody to place a hand on the shoulder of the person next to them and pray a blessing. I knew instantly that I was not to get involved and said so to the group. A few weeks after my visit, the leader came to me and told me that it had since transpired that the woman who was to lay a hand on me had confessed to being a witch. She wasn't there to cause trouble and did indeed want deliverance, but the discernment God gave me was an encouragement to that leader to seek discernment himself.
I am so glad you had the discernment to resist that! I love joyful praise but “my Father’s house shall be a house of prayer” seems to require a little more serious holiness before Him.
So you would reject the Holy Spirit if it was him?
@@daniell9268 Holy Spirit does not need anyone else to tell me things. I never reject Holy Spirit! He can talk to me any time any place. I don’t have to get worked up emotionally to hear him. I already have relationship with him and he speaks to me in that still, small voice, through the Word of God, and through the wisdom of a multitude of counselors. I hear his voice and seek him early while he may be found. I think of church as Jesus did: “My Father’s house shall be a house of prayer.” I am a big proponent of the idea “do things decently and in order.”
@@daniell9268 we need discernment. Derek Princes book Protection against deception is good on discerning the Holy Spirit. He was on stage with William Branham and discerned that he moved in a demonic spirit...
Bethel /bill johnson are a continuation of William Branham thro the kansas city prophets.
All sorts of manifestations can come through the Holy Spirit but I dont believe he takes people over, pinning them to the floor etc...
The HS produces self control, He is holy so nothing flippant or vulgar comes from Him. He convicts of sin...
Much of what you see is coming out of dominion theology (william branham), now and now of the kingdom before Jesus returns. the emphasis is on more power now that typically goes beyond scripture and rails against Jesus beattitudes and sermon on the mount (eg love your enemies, dont curse them).
In the end it produces a counterfeit kingdom... which our flesh is very at home with, power and wealth...
it is more advantageous for the enemy to infiltrate the church through “good” intentions than through blatant lies.
“Try the spirits whether they be of God.”
“Bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.”
There are a lot of complex issues here and you guys to do a great job of parsing out some of these. Part of the problem from my perspective is that there is too great a division between "flesh" and the "spirit" vis a vis manifestation is being asserted here. I fell under the power of the Spirit in Charismatic style meetings many times. After a while I began to question if I was cooperating with it in some way. I would feel an "anointing" and a gentle pressure and would fall down and rest in the Spirit. I started to experiment if I could resist the urge to fall and found that I could often. My conclusion was that in many cases (not all) the falling down (being "slayed") was a ritualized response to some degree to a heightened influx of divine energies--the Holy Spirit, anointing etc. It is a participation of our body in our experience of these divine energies. It is a bit psychosomatic. But rather than thinking this or was a bad thing I came to realize that this is a ritualized communal form of participation in God not unlike receiving Sacraments or participating in Worship. Our flesh becoming plastic to the influx of the Holy Spirit seems to me a harbinger of the Resurrection. It is allowing God greater purchase on us.
I went to a pentecostal Bible where they liked to do prayer tunnels. I really disliked them. Most of it was people with sweaty hands smacking me on the head, messing up my hair while yelling phrases like 'more, touch, fire!'
It seems to me that Biblical laying on of hands was for a purpose or commissioning. I'd rather thoughtful and specific prayer than a smack on the head while yelling clichés.
LOL !! 😀 - well the smack on the end obviously knocked some sense into you !! LOL !! God works in mysterious ways. 🙂
..the problem is where it all comes from, Toronto blessing, Rodney Howard-Brown (is the Holy Spirit) and closely associated with Bethel and their dominion theology and bringing new age into the church through their book The Physics of Heaven..
- I dont think calling for more fire is from God. Even in Acts 4 they prayed for boldness to witness, they didnt order God around by calling more fire down !! - who is responding I ask myself !!
Lol! Hearing a theological discussion about fire tunnels gives me so much joy. 😂
“Holy Ghost car wash”
“I prayed for you and you did the worm, what happened?” 😂
From my experience all manifestations should be discerned yet not over dictated. Some things people call the Holy Spirit and say “more” to is really demonic manifestation. Some people really want attention (maybe subconsciously).
I will say laying on of hands and impartation is very real and I have experienced that. I received tongues and then prayed for my dads back that evening (then agnostic). His back was immediately healed and I got to baptize him 3 years ago. 🙌
We can’t fear experiencing God and our Father will not give us a stone when we ask for bread. If we are seeking Jesus, the Holy Spirit will come meet with us and increase our boldness to be witnesses.
Doing the worm shouldn’t be the pursuit, Jesus should be. 😂
Loved your commentary on experiencing God in our mind and physically. Expectation for being touched by God to bless Him and the body of Christ. Not just to week after week flop around with no fruit.
Thank you Michaël for sharing your experience with faking it. Great lesson, we can all learn from it.
That was refreshing. I grew up in a Pentecostal context and was pressured unto faking that experience on more than one occasion. And similar to Josh, I couldn't understand those manifesting ecstatic experiences who were living in sin. Two serious issues that should be addressed.
Yup ✌🏼
You guys did a great job balancing it out. These kind of topics can be so lop sided. Great point Josh about God giving us emotions, and I'd say even given us opportunity to experience pleasurable sensations in our physical body, for the ultimate purpose of worshiping God, not serve the flesh.
Great talk guys!✝️❤
As humans, we tend to stick with the familiar or stick with what worked before. For example, someone might have yelled “fire“ under the unction of the Holy Spirit, and it worked then, and then we assume we can formulaically on demand make it work again and again. One thing we know about God is that He does things differently all the time, does things that seem non sequitor to us, and shakes things up: religious, presumptious, and habitual practices are no bueno with God, no matter what form they take.
..where do the apostles command power to come down.. in acts 4 they pray to God for boldness and supernatural power to witness & heal and he responds.. but they dont command it...
..that is to be little Gods in our own right, not submitting to God but using his power (or the other side) independently of Him... that was the first sin in the garden...
Bethel be loving some witchcraft
Been a Christian 63 years and never heard of fire tunnels! You guys are strange!
Great episode, encouraging ending!
Great discussion!
My church does fire tunnels. I just thought it was a way to do a quick efficient prayer line while letting more people get involved in praying.
It’s foolishness, an emotional display to make the participants feel better and go home with a bit of a spiritual buzz. At best it’s part of the contemporary western playing at church…it’s deeper roots are demonic deception.
Pastor/minister/elder:
“ l feel the Lord say let’s do a fire tunnel this morning..”
Church: “ yea, I love these…I hope I feel something”
Pastor/minister/elder.
We need to clean house, individually and corporately, look deeply into our own hearts and at our relationships and allow The Holy Spirit in to convict us of sin.”
Church: (muttering) This guy needs to lighten up, maybe wave a flag or something, I like the other guy better he’s so kind and has funny stories.
Love you guys!! I have been spirit filled 20 years. I never claim to be charismatic
Ive never done or seen fire tunnels before but from what i hear I think fire tunnels are just a nice visual demonstration of your community showing their spiritual support for people. Its a creative way to pray which i think in that creativity show an earnest want to pray. Yes the hype itself could be vain during prayer, but if you see many people excited about praying for you and doing so with a creative expression that feels honest to them, than i see it as a way to uplift other members of a church community and while the “hype” may feel unnecessary, being excited for people may uplift other members and help them feel confident in carrying their daily crosses reminded that theyre not alone. Do i see potential for fire tunnels to breed vain “charismatic” intentions? ABSOLUTELY. But do i also think its reasonable to want to do a fun community-building activity involving prayer and showing support for other brothers/sisters in Christ? Also yes! Any chance for more prayer and fellowship is great in my opinion
all this said yet you’ve never seen or been involved with fire tuneless practice but you think it might be a nice visual.
I would suggest you seek spiritual discernment before you make unqualified statements like this one.
@@markshaneh i dont claim to be qualified i’ve simply listed the pros and cons that I see for this type of prayer. I see no definitive necessity for a prayer tunnel and I listed some cons as to why it could lead to something else. Although, im optimistic that the overall idea behind them is meant with intention to give glory to God which i think could lead to a positive attitude to the body of Christ. I posted my opinion to invite discussion from people that may actually be qualified to weigh in on the position. I do not claim that they are good or bad, but i do not see them as inherently bad. If you’re suggesting that they are or are not objectively bad then id love to hear why you’d think so. In the meantime, while i do have a perspective on the matter i do not claim with certainty on the matter which is why I do not personally involve myself with these prayer tunnels. But i don’t think i need to have a qualification to post what i /think/ a prayer circle might entail because that is how we can get discussion going to learn in the first place. If someone who has been involved in prayer tunnels has objections to what I’ve commented, I’d love to invite them to go ahead and explain why so that I may learn, but I never claimed authority over people with such experience, so I apologize if that was an inference that could be communicated from my previous comment.
..the problem is they come from the Toronto blessing which came through Rodney howard brown in the 1990's. I dont believe he moves in the HS but something else...
It is not normal prayer, people falling down out of control is not how the HS operates as the fruit of the HS is self control, he convicts of sin...
rolling around the floor out of control in fits of uncontrolled luaghter... is God luaghing at the state of the church.. I beleive the HS can manifest in all sorts of ways but He doesnt take people over against their will.
God sends drunkeness (without alchohol) on people as judgement. At pentecost they were not incompacitated, Peter got up and gave an eloquent sermon...
The HS moves Gods kingdom forward, people cannot participate in that if they are incompacitated..
Rodney Howard-Brown describes his experience of the HS as electricity that sends him out of control. Bill Johnson does the same in their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven (ch14 whole lot of shakin going on).
I think the HS can manifest in all sorts of ways, even as electricity (for healing) but not if you are out of control (He doesnt do that).
Spot on with “no need to hype up the work or presence of Holy Spirit …”
"Sam Storms will shout 'fire' over you" 😂 glad I stayed to the end 👌
I like how you guys say it: pastor the moment. There's a lot of people who think that the spiritual part of christianity is something that cannot be discerned or understood, but just screaming "fireeee" and letting go. But I believe Paul teaches that we can study spiritual gifts, learn and grow.
Thoughts:
(1) Why judge the value or effectiveness of prayer by seeing people fall over or shake…is this fruit ?
(2) There are demonic influences bought to church (some deliberately) that are in need of real discernment and prayer (or protection) from mature members of the body who have a level of sanctification in their own lives.
(3) Do due diligence on occult practices and manifestations or gnostic beliefs. “Test the spirits”
(4) Ask why western Christianity needs a charismatic “show” when God seeks a “broken spirit and a contrite heart.”
“Holy Ghost car wash” 😂😂😂
Holy Spirit can do whatever He wants, but when leadership brings hype so someone has an experience, that is sin. Reliance on experiences in the Church is why so many Christians deconstruct\fall away. That shallow faith is not built on relationship with Jesus. I appreciate what you gents said about taking some sort of pause to defuse the emotional stimulus.
..yes the HS can do whatever he wants. Are they going to the HS though... even the disciples prayed to God for more power to witness in Acts 4, they did not call fire down..
Fire tunnels !!! Seriously !!
Our hearts need to be made flesh through contrition and honest prayerful repentance, producing not casual regret but godly sorrow.
A fire tunnel is more likely to induce a group display of emotionalism than lasting and effective change. Others running round “praying for them ” How do you know who’s doing that is suitable or commissioned to do it ?
1 Timothy 5: 22.
“ Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.”
Laying on of hands isn't the issue, though. The conservative Presbyterian churches I attended installed elders in such prayer. Fire tunnels feel more like sensation and spectacle.
You talk about the Gifts of the Spirit but that needs to be balanced with the Fruit of the Spirit. I don't find anywhere in the Bible talking about twitching, falling out, yelling etc. as being any gift or fruit of the Spirit.
And being prayed for using an efficient "fire tunnel" is so impersonal. Just how I want to be prayed for. "Let's see how quick we can get through this".
..yes, may The Force be with You... 🙂
If ppl could just understand. When the Holy Spirit is touching you… you know it’s “of God”. It’s so different for those that are experiencing the many diff manifestations that may occur. Yet Believers know that growth is long term… I always learned Miracles are instant.. healing often takes time. That includes healing our lives, minds, bodies etc
When you see people yelling , rolling , on the floor, it's something that Christians should be avoiding. I think that when you see the bizarre behaviors in a church then you see the rotton fruits.
Not biblical.
Our elderly ladies would perform the "Pyramid of Propitiation". Phylis fell off and dislocated her plastic hip AGAIN. We had to limit them to 7 people high after that. 7 is a good number.
Holy shit I love this comment so much
..this comment is too deep for me.. 🙂
I think twitching is a general spiritual side-effect. I don't think it's necessarily demonic. But it does happen when you have demons in your body.
Especially when confronted with the power of the Holy Spirit. That’s when the enemy and his cronies really start to freak out.
I have gone ahead and deleted my prior comment. This is a reminder that social media and the like are no place for conversation since it is too easy for there to be misunderstanding, and it is 10 times harder to clear things up online than it is in person. Perhaps it was the way I stated my thoughts that was the issue since I agreed with most everything that was said in the video. I love listening to Remnant Radio and will continue to do so and encourage others to do the same, but I will refrain from commenting going forward. If we were talking face to face, I think we would find we are far more in agreement than the “No, not true” comment would indicate but as I said online is a horrible way to communicate. Keep up the great work you are doing!
I have had two intense encounters with the Holy Spirit / the presence of God and can understand why someone may fall under the weight of that glory, but something that always comes to mind in the “slain in the Spirit” conversation is: how can uncontrollable shaking, or falling be from God’s Spirit when self control is fruit of the Spirit?
btw, during Covid, my church did do drive-though prayer lines.
Im smiling at that... did your cars get washed at the same time.. 🙂
I saw one a few years ago in OKC at a conference... It was confusing what was happening...it seemed people were yelling, laughing...anyway I opted out! 😂 At the same conference I had someone pray for me & I was healed from fits of hiccups. So I believe they meant well, but it definitely wasn't my cup of tea! 💁🏼♀️😂
Hey Josh! This is Rudia, from S.Korea, remember me right? Just wanna say thank you so much for making this episode. I felt like you're speaking from my heart hahaha.
You guys crack me up 😂😂😂
Is the Church so bored they need to come up with new ways to pray? I'm sure God is more than willing to give them stuff to do. Regardless, pretty soon, the Church won't have time for silly things like "Fire Tunnels".
I've been in churches that did fire tunnels. The presence of God was strong and the Holy Spirit was moving.
@@healingthroughchrist1988 - with the HS moving, were people convicted of sin, was the gospel preached... was Jesus elevated, any idea what the fruit in peoples lives was after that....
...was there an emphasis on power rather than character there... did it end up producing the opposite to Jesus upside down kingdom, the beattitudes and the sermon on the mount...
..did it produce the lamb nature... or was it power and wealth grabbing..
@@JuliexSteadman The ones I've been to was at the end of the service after preaching. And you could feel the manifest presence of God and it was very strong. Personal discomfort is not discernment. Sometimes personal discomfort is caused by our own bias and false assumptions. The Bible tells us to test the spirit, not see if there's any personal discomfort. Even if there's been spiritual abuse with fire tunnels, that don't make fire tunnels inherently bad. Any authentic move of God always brings glory to God. A fire tunnel is nothing more than a prayer change. Those who criticize it associate fire with judgment. That's why they feel discomfort in their spirit. But fire can also represent the Holy Spirit as we see in Acts 2:1-4. And John the baptist said Jesus will baptize with fire but I don't remember the exact verse off the top of my head. It's in the same area where John the baptist is about to baptize Jesus. Fire purifies.
You guys should do a show on how to have fellowship/ communion/ friendship with Holy Spirit. :)
The Bible says you must have an interpreter. I had some experiences in this environment with no interpretation or interpreter. Not good practice right?
..i think its far worse than that....
I don't see that Elijah reference the same way, to me, that was full on hype. That was Elijah being like, "watch what my God's gonna do! Its soaking wet, everyone knows wet stuff doesn't burn, but guess what? My God isn't limited by the laws of nature or the common sense of man, my God can do anything!" Then bam! God does it. Radical faith does hype people up. I'm generally not a huge hype person, but Elijah on mount Carmel is one of my fave stories. His mockery of the prophets of Baal and his unwavering faith in that moment should make every Christian stand up and yell "that's the God is serve!" Lol
I have been in many services, especially at conferences, where there were fire tunnels where people go through the fire tunnel and then stand up at the end and pray for others behind them that go through. I was concerned about people getting un-Godly transfers. This is even a concern where the pastor tells everyone to pray for others around them and most people are laying hands on each other. I agree with you that the prayer should by vetted people. The prayer tunnels usually just have people getting prayer for a very short time. I could be good if a speaker wants to get a chance to pray for everyone. But often more in depth prayer is very beneficial also.
And yes, the pastor who put on one of the conferences had a witch sitting next to her whispering in her ear some threatening things. I have heard it is common for witches to visit church services to infiltrate them. Sometimes they manage to get leadership positions such as head of the prayer teams or a member of the worship team. Pastors need to be aware, have discernment, and have the courage to confront.
Great topic, as usual! Thank you!
"Lathering oil"?
A demon?
This is also my concern I think this can work if all the people praying are of God and clean living a life of purity but it scares me if there are witches or Christian's that still need to get right with God in certain areas of there life.
💯TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT.
Michael, are you saying we won't have a fire tunnel team at Bridgeway?
🤣😅 LOLOLOLOL!
Fire tunnels is the most charismaniacal (not charismatic) thing. I wouldn't let people who I don't know touch me in a spiritual experience (transfers, occult practitioners that join the meeting, etc.).
Would you shake hands with someone you didn't know well? I am guessing you would without concern. What is the difference (not arguing but trying to understand what makes one dangerous and not the other - is it the attitude of approaching a fire tunnel to receive spiritually? )
@@gareth2736 It's the context of the interaction that is the point; shaking hands is something you might do in meeting someone. I was in a church where we had hundreds hit the altar after the message and it was out of order; people walking around laying hands on anyone, people you did not know nor did you know their maturity in the LORD. I think they covered this in the video. I worked at a ministry (very small 4-5 of us) and one morning I grabbed the hand of a co-worker during our daily prayer circle and when I grabbed her hand, it felt like something ran down my arm and up hers and she flinched and looked at me in shock. It wasn't static electricity neither.
@@Michael-dt9lo yes thats interesting... Rodney howard-brown describes his experience of the HS as electricity which makes him go out of control..
So does Bill Johnson in ch14 of their dasterly book The Physics of Heaven.
My experience of the HS has been complete overwhelming joy (not luaghing) that lifted me out of my circumstances (it was like being on drugs !! but i completely had all my faculties).
It lasted for a couple of months until i sinned in a certain way... then got into a wacky church (long time ago in the UK) and got totally confused...
I think the HS can manifest as electricity but I dont believe He takes you over....
Terry Virgo (founder of New Frontiers church in the UK) records in his book 'No well worn paths' his experience of the HS when the Arnots (Toronto blessing /Today Catch the fire) prayed for him. He was completely out of it for 2 hours, could not get off the floor to even go to the toilet, everyone left him there - you can hear the question mark in his voice - was that the HS?
@@gareth2736 - if someone is into the other side, and they are praying for you to receive as they shake your hand, things can transfer...
If i was concerned about someone i was shaking hands with i would be inwardly praying for protection..
Or if something had got me, I would command it to leave... as in Christ I have that authority....
@@JuliexSteadman by "the other side" does that mean you would be cautious about shaking hands with Hindus, Jews or Muslims?
This is related to the laying on hands. I'm ok with walking up to someone or a line of people to get praid for.
I've also experienced more effective ways but also less scary looking.
"Everyone who wants to pray line up and people line up not to go thru a tunnel but to one of the individuals praying and then receive the prayer. No drama.
Let's just pray like normal human beings is my take-away hehe from this. Excellent.
When it comes to laying on hands however I have the last year been very skeptical. Sometimes this almost stopped me from going to church sometimes even. People just invading with laying hands on and praying when I dont want that.
You see there is another aspect of this you guys should be aware of. The last year I've been having to use either walking aids or a wheelchair when going out due to illness. And a wheelchair is not a normal sight in our little church.
So - some few people find it their right to just go up to you and pray.
I've had people ambush me from behind even.
Hands heavily on the shoulders.
Then praying for an eternity.
Now - I am not a weak person. And I don't like to shame or offend people - so if there is a possibility that might happen I just let them do their thing. After all the prayer is a prayer - u know... maybe something good can come out of it hehe.
The only problem with this is - yes I can handle it but others might not - the only problem is that the illness makes the slightest touch in the wrong place - like my shoulders- so painful. For those who suffer from the same they know what I'm talking about.
You cannot see it on me. But I'm more or less in constant pain. Now that can be managed by tolerating it as long as I have control over people around me not come touching me when they feel like.
A lot of talking now. Sorry.
My point is - it is hard to hide that you are sick when u sit in a wheelchair. Why would I hide it? To avoid people come lay hands on me and make it worse. But problem is "everyone" wants to pray for the guy in the wheelchair.
And thats not ok. They haven't heard from the spirit either many times. They just want an easy miracle.
So what do I do when I hurt too much for people to touch my shoulders which is the common place to lay hands on in my church, and I need the wheelchair to sit there for a couple of hours?
That's when I say many times I considered just staying home.
To this day I didn't do it because I need to he with my people. And I love the church and people.
But they don't always know what to do and don't do.
I only say all this to REALLY underline what was discussed in the end - that it is common sense to respect people enough to ask if its ok to lay hands on - and why it is so important.
Because- one might have the best intentions in the world and it still can feel like such a violation that a person might not come. Not because they were scared away but because as in my case - afraid for their condition to get worse.
I've even had people being offended when I out of reflex deflect people's hands on their way to my shoulders. 😆
So guys. Remember when praying for others- it is not all about you or the setting and atmosphere - there are ten thousand different reasons to not surprise people with praying for them and laying hands on them before u asked.
And if you are in a more one on one situation maybe ask if its and also ask if they have any questions related to why hands on- because their issue might be that they don't understand it or know why - then quickly explain it.
Just some tips and sharing of personal experiences, in a way too long post. So if u read it to the end and think its useful info - comment under and give your opinion or whatever. I dont need people to read what I write in that way- but I think this is very useful tips and it would be cool to know if I'm the only one thinking about this in that way or if you others have same or different opinion. 😁
Finally!!
I first experienced one at H ROCK church Pasadena &;Laguna Nigel Vineyard
Thank you for your point of view. It helps explain what goes on. I myself will not participate in anything like this if there is crazy manifestation.
Could you imagine the apostles doing this? No. Never.
You talk about fire tunnels as a Pentecostal thing. I've been part of a Pentecostal denomination for about 15 years now. Never heard the term "fire tunnel" until this episode. Do people go forward for prayer? Yes. Are there several staff pastors and board members/elders standing in a line up front to pray for people? Yes. The prayer ends, the people return to their seats. Can we please stop using Pentecostal as a curse word? Some of us can be quite normal.
..fire tunnels came out of the toronto blessing i believe, the toronto church is called 'Catch the Fire' these days... the Arnots mix with Bethel etc and their dominion theology and their further teachings can be seen in their book The Physics of Heaven..
I dont believe these fire tunnels are from God. THere is a tendencey to call down fire as Rodney Howard-Brown does and when people roll out of control, I dont think thats the HS...
Protection against deception by Derek Prince is an interesting book... he was on stage with William Branham in the 1950's and discerned an evil spirit operating in him... Branham brought in dominion theology (now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns, formerly known as latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation The New Apostolic Reformation - Bethel, Bill Johnson), continued on by the Kansas City Prophets to the NAR today).
They have all gone beyond scripture to get power, see Bethel's book, The Physics of Heaven.
Roundtree totally cut off by bumper music. So awesome.
When are y’all gonna have D. A. Carson on? Just finished reading Showing the Spirit. Such a balanced and edifying book about everything charismatic.
I might look into that book because of your comment!
Me too!
I'm so mad I missed this one live xD
👍
Are there any examples in the Bible of believers manifesting the Holy Spirit with shaking, making strange noises or jerking?
One of the fruits of the Spirit is self control and Paul called for things to be done decently and in order. That has never been fire tunnels that's for sure. And if you change the nature of what fire tunnels have always been then it's not "fire tunnels" anymore. Demons are attracted to chaos so it's not surprising to me that they would take over such a practice.
This stuff is off the wall and not biblical. Full of hype and the flesh.
Didn't Paul say with regard to church service that
1 Corinthians 14:40
[40]Let all things be done decently and in order.
These types of services defend into utter chaos
If you want to confirm experiences are Holy Spirit, there should be observable change and production of fruit, holiness, etc. in the individual. It's one thing to interview a person in what they are 'feeling,experiencing,' but quite another to see if this experience draws them into deeper commitment into fellowship, growth and maturity in Jesus Christ. I've witnessed a lot of charismania and it seems a lot of people are just trying to get a 'fix' or 'high' or even worse attention. Elders/leadership should investigate behaviors during an altar call, fire tunnel, etc. to discern whether a participant is in the the flesh and needs correction or is genuinely experiencing a touchstone towards more transformational growth in Christ. Personally, I'm very careful when it comes to others praying for me, especially if they want to lay hands. In a spiritual context I've been in a prayer circle, holding hands and felt something crawl down my arm and up a person's arm next to me she even shivered and thought it was a static electricity, but I think it was spiritual.
Prayer lines. Same thing with a charismatic spin.
I encountered Salvation through Anaheim Vineyard in the early 90s, under J Wimber
Wish we had another million John Wimber's
Hard to find a church that practices what Jesus told us to do.
There’s still hope then that you could get saved then ✌🏼
@@markshaneh LOL !!
@@joshuamitchell5481 unfortunately he got hi-jacked by the kansas city prophets who are a continuation of William Branham and his dominion theology (now and now of the kingdom before Jesus returns, formerly known as latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation The New Apostolic Reforamtion).
They all go beyond scripture to get more power...
Fortunately Wimber threw them out but it gave them a high profile and helped their false teaching to become main stream in the church...
Please pray for Lee he is on a cocaine benge. Help please
The name “fire” pretty much defines the expectations. You can’t really compare to prayer line. Discernment is needed
I love the comment about anti-hype. I listen to different teachers and pastors about the theology of worship, some from Reformed cessationist circles, and it does seem that they are allergic to emotion.
Have we made”experience” an idol?
Just listened a second time through.
Many Charismatic practices/phenomena are so often automatically perceived as, or descend into, unbiblical silliness and abuse. This video talks through many of those practices (focusing on "fire tunnels" obviously) and shows some of the actual biblical and theological reasoning behind these practices and phenomena.
Can you a clip in of Beavis and Butthead saying “Fire” at the beginning please? 😆
Never seen a "fire tunnel" before, but not a fan due to the lack of self control in body movements and hype discussed.
Wouldn’t scripture that admonishes us not to seek after a sign apply here? Great discussion, fellas!
Gauntlet of Grace
As someone who has authentic ally fallen out in the Spirit… yeah pushing is super lame and phony and I don’t understand why people do.
I have never experienced a fire tunnel, never been in a church that has done one, never witnessed one in person. All that said, it looks like what may have been created as a way of praying for lots of people quickly, has now in some, maybe the majority of cases, become something designed to illicit a response, particularly a physical response. The potential issue I see with a "fire tunnel" is that has taken on a cultural expectation that "when we do this" the Holy Spirit moves because people fall down/respond physically. It that is true, then a) its an issue with discernment over seeing something physical and always equating it to the Spirit moving and b) it's bordering on seeking to manipulate the Holy Spirit through our behaviour.
This is why many (most?) churches have altar training.
The danger in all this, when it gets visually cooky.. and weird... its gives all kinds of ammo to guys like Peters and MacArthur.
I very reluctantly entered a fire tunnel and a person, outside the tunnel, touched my head with his finger. I was slammed to the ground, it hurt, and then the room disappered. The voice said, "I did not sexually abuse you." What? As a teen I walked away from God because a priest, among others, sexually abused me and I blamed God. I wanted to be a priest but that abuse changed my mind. I ended up apologizing to God because I was too young to know that God will let us suffer as he did with Paul. I became a pastor and counselor to the abused. Sadly we will never be able to filter out all the 'hype,' but it should not stop our prayer tunnels. We can't let fear stop a move of God.
I’ve been in churches where they referred to it as the “Holy Ghost car wash” lol
Holy Ghost spanking machine?
I had to luagh even though I shouldnt.. I should be crying... fire tunnels came in through the Toronto Blessing in the 1990s' which came in through Rodney Howard-Brown !! What is that power that transfers from him to other people leaving them 'out of control'...
I experienced the fire tunnel at a missionary “school” in Africa and I also witnessed the convulsing and shaking from people around me. Why do folks think they have to create their own belligerent/crazy processes? I’m a continuationist but fully understand why some folks are either cessationists or “open but cautious” when they hear/see things like that. I just don’t understand…
It's not of God. The fruit of the spirit is self control . So that cancels all the uncontrollable laughter, shaking ECT. Most of what we see today is fake or demonic.
Jacob I’m sorry you haven’t experienced the Holy Spirit fully and the joy of the Lord.
@@daniell9268 your an apostate. The Bible says(not you or me) fruit of the Holy spirit is self control. So your Holy spirit is most likely Kundalini or something else. The word is the final authority. not your experience. 2thess talks about the apostasy your a part of.
@@daniell9268 experiencing the HS fully brings indescribable joy into your heart that has nothing to do with circumstances.
I would say this is not that though...
Rodney howard brown describes his experience of the HS as being electricity and he is completely out of control.
Bill Johnson describes the same in their 'new age' book The PHysics of heaven (ch14 a whole lot of shakin going on).
Bill Johnson is into Dominion theology which came in through William Branham. Its the now and now of the kingdom BEFORE Jesus returns (formerly called latter rain, manifest sons of God, todays incarnation, the new apostolic reformation)....
It produces a counterfeit kingdom because it says we can have the wealth and power now, this is the opposite to the beattitudes and Jesus sermon on the mount which says to love your enemies, not curse them...
Holly Pivecs book - Counterfeit kingdom is an interesting read. Well researched but slightly muddies the water as she is a cessationist. I believe we can have the 5 fold ministry if we have small 'a' apostles (missionaries in old money) rather than big A apostles as Bill Johnson and Co believe they are, with more power than the original 12 !!
And i definitely beleive in the supernatural gifts - all this stuff is the enemies attempt to hi-jack the gifts which are necessary for church growth...
Spiritual gifts are for the edifying of the church into a holy temple in the Lord. That's it. I didn't see Paul listing fire tunnels as a legitimate manifestation and if you think they glorify the Lord you need to get some reverence.
What is a fire tunnel
Man now I see. When do we stop with the games and “innovations”? I’m embarrassed for everyone who does this.
It is things like this why I'd never be a part of a charismatic church. Weird and unbiblical.
There is hype but to go on about that too much obscures what the source is. It has to be more than hype, you can see the power coming out of people like Rodney Howard-Browne (who i would say thats where fire tunnels come from).
If we are commanding power, we are not submitting to God - who is answering? is that God or the other side...
WHERE IN SCRIPTURE DO THE APOSTLES COMMAND POWER TO COME DOWN.
Man! There’s a bunch of whacky stuff out there!!! Decently and in order…decently and in order!!!
Yet the Lord May very well decide you need to shake or shout bc it’s not about you. It’s about Him. When you’ve submitted totally to Him, you’ll just go with Him. Not to please man but to submit to the Lord. God bless
@@andreab1144 but will God deny Himself and His own word?
@@andreab1144 the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth. The Bible is truth. When the Holy Spirit has you “go with Him”, he will not go outside of Biblical standards in what he prompts/asks you to do. This is why the charismatic church needs to return to serious exploration of Biblical, *contextual* doctrine.
so i've seen & been part of "fire tunnels" - initially i was offended by them, same as some people in comments seem to be - too much "emotional excess" for church. And there have been times (& still are) when I would resist being part of them, if it does feel like its all about the hype, or trying to "work up faith" etc by the people doing it, imitating the power of God with psychosomatic pressure & emotional manipulation. That said however - if you're offended by people being physically & emotionally touched by God in a way that looks strange, you'd probably be against anything apart from quiet prayer (except for some reason most people offended by emotion in church are totally okay with emotion at a football game etc - and why? isn't God more exciting than men chasing a ball around?). And if you're okay with your kids playing in your back garden, why would God not be okay with His kids playing in His House? So discernment is probably more about individuals - and that's in any context: you could even discern that the person being all quiet on the back pew is actually hiding tons of things behind a façade of "I'm all fine"... And in a fire tunnel, i've been so touched by the power of God that i cannot walk, and in the same tunnel had someone try push me to the floor (which I was able to resist - we can resist man, but sometimes its not easy to resist God - I think of Gamaliel's warning in Acts..). So the Holy Spirit was very present, and human imitation likewise - but that didn't stop my very-much-needed experience of God in that.
Fire tunnels... to prepare people for entering through the gates of Hell. Yup, fits their narrative.
LOL !! probably true though.. I shouldnt luagh...
🔥🤣🔥😂🔥🤣🔥😂🔥😎👍👍
Holy Ghost car wash 😂
I mean. To bless someone like that is ok. But some people dramaticize a lot tho.. there will always be individuals that does weird stuff "manifistation" haha.. what is real or not, only God knows :D
I can understand why the Apostle Paul said it's not good to have young pastors..just look at you both.. disgraceful. !!
It's not in the word
Is the Hebrew god Yahweh and his son taking an interest in this activity or is it just human sharing of feelings?
"Discernment tunnel" 😂🤣😅
Best comment of the week 😅
Is it strange that I don’t think about fire tunnels?
there were no Holy Spirit on these "church activities"
No Animals Were Harmed from a fire tunnell
..LOL !! Brilliant comment !!
Slanket. LoL.
Those who never came across different religious practices, for them new experiences from other religions are very amusing. But those who never came across such things are highly likely to adopt different practices within their own religion.
Come to India and see, all the expenses things Charismatic Penticostel are doing are not unique and already performed by some religion with different idea.
1tim5:22-Bethel totally invented fire tunnels; show us the video of a fire tunnel from the 50's or from brownsville bc it doesn't exist
Can I ask how you are an authority on that topic? I mean they have eye witnesses.
Yeah, no. They didn't. They might have made them popular with certain groups but they were around before Bethel.
Bethel & Bill johnson completely made them popular and authorized them as being suitable for ministry.. exactly like he did w/ Todd bentley after he left his first disabled wife and kids
I would say they came in through the Toronto Blessing which came in through Rodney Howard-Brown, Randy Clark and the Arnots, 1990's (Arnots church is called Catch the fire these days).
The Arnots move in close circles with Bethel etc...
First video i watched of Todd Bentley (2008) he said the same angel that started William Branhams ministry started his, I immediately knew he was off.
I managed to get his theology off of his web site (the few days it was up there), he was into serpent seed theology and he had some theologian justifying that it was ok to pray to angels using The Angel of the Lord from the OT (who has to be the pre-incarnate Jesus as people worship Him).
And how was it that Bill Johnson etc were inaugurating Todd Bentley into a top posiiton in their organisation without knowing his theology. Either they dont care or they believe it too...
Bill Johnson does want William Branhams mantle...
And John Andrew Collins who was born into the Branham cult and left it about 10 years ago (aged 37) does historical research on Branham, his book, Preacher to the white hoods just about says it all... Branhams deception was breath taking, different personas and different theologies (trinity, not trinity) depending on who he was talking to and he was a preacher to the Klu Klux Klan.
Derek prince who was on stage with Branham went public in his book 'protection against deception' in the 1990s to say that Branham moved in the demonic....
Fire tunnels = glorifying self
You can’t justify a fire tunnel when what it deals with is experience and oddities. This show should be removed as they are opportunities for weirdness and groping. I don’t see anything in scripture that justifies this off-bible practice. And I was saved in a Pentecostal church myself. I do pray for you guys. Your upholding of John Wimber really concerns me.
..what are your concerns about John Wimber... fire tunnels come out of the toronto blessing which came out of Rodney Howard-Browne (who i think is moving in the demonic).
Wimber threw the Arnots out when the weird stuff started happening as he did with the kansas city prophets...
I had lots of genuine Godly experiences walking through firetunnels or praying for people in them in the Toronto blessing and different charismatic churches. The manifestations of the Spirit can be offensive, they were in Acts 10 and with a culture thats desensitized to the offense of the cross and communion it’s interesting to see the Spirit reintroduce offenses where we get to look foolish to some while genuinely experiencing the Lord. I do think there can be problems. An example is using them on the missionfield, had a team of people do this to get prayed up in front of a group of muslims and they see any manifestation as demonic and proceeded to try and stone us. Not a great context. Also have seen dysfunctional people try and use the opportunity of a firetunnel to pray for people inappropriately where they would otherwise stand out more - but good church leadership will have oversight in place to shut this behaviour down.