Ironically when a dish becomes a national or regional tradition it's because everyone in the area copied the original creator so many times that no one knows who the hell made it originally.
Thing is there's usually never an "original creator". Everything is a remix. In the culinary arts we accept that. Even if a novel, signature dish is attributed to a single person everybody knows that is derived from what came before.
@@lordgarion514 Just because everyone has their take on something doesn't mean someone didn't come up with the idea originally. Every airplane company has a take on how to make a airplane, but we can clearly trace back to a handful of people who came up with the idea. As with any invention once the knowledge is out there people tweak and adjust it.
I misread the title as "Who (ethnically) owns recipes" and thought Adam was going to talk about food gatekeeping culture. (i.e. Italians against "alternative" pizzas and pastas (NY Style, Filipino spaghetti), Mexicans against Tex-Mex food, etc.) That would make a very interesting video, though.
Italians really are the strongest responders to what is "wrong" with food. Just because no one orders a cappuccino after 11am in Italy, doesn't mean that it's the right call. So many rules.
That's a good question since a lot of food is "fusion" because of the movement of people, either by force or by economic choice. Mexican food is a major example of this because even foods that have become national dishes are results of colonization.
@@SlavicCelery Italians have "their" food adopted or corporatized by every ethnicity on the planet and don't complain at all about it - or at least, they won't racialize that adoption. If an Italian opened up a Mexican or Arabic food place, they'd never hear the end of it.
All recipes can be traced back to someone's grandmother, so she gets all the credit. I also just told my mom about the concept of the video, and she said the same thing: a grandma, of course!!
Its your serious journalistic integrity, your consistency in making sure to questions like the ones in this video, that keeps me coming back to your channel.
Yeah some of the sponsors he's done have very very seriously reduced the respect I have for him. The vitamins especially, such awful and uncritical blind support for what's ultimately lies
As a musician/educator, I truly felt Adam's frustration in this video. This stuff is TEDIOUS, to say the least. But it's also IMPORTANT as well. Thank you for your diligent thought, research, time, etc. on the ownership of ideas. Too many creators don't give enough thought to this subject and if they do, it very often becomes a strictly legal discussion. I'm glad that Ragusea dug deeper and didn't shy away from the ethical issues. Great video as always!
@@moomoocowsly I never said anything to contradict what you're saying here. I merely said it's important to have discourse on a very complicated subject and that I appreciate Ragusea taking the time and effort to distill that conversation into an easily consumed video. I don't want cooks/chefs to be able to copyright recipes, but I do think a musician has every right to own their songs. Ownership of ideas, and also how we go about crediting who and where we got those ideas from is an IMPORTANT conversation to be had.
Something I appreciate about Adam is that he brings in important academic considerations/questions to a lay public through the use of food and food vlogging. I could get a recipe for a dish from so many different sources but what I have grown to appreciate more and more from Adam is that he also brings in important thought provoking questions and ideas. As someone trained in the social sciences, I think this is an important step in curtailing the escalation of anti intellectualism that has become more and more pervasive. Something else I appreciate, he doesn't talk down to his audience.
Also his recipe videos include WHY and aren't just commands. I've learned so much about cooking just from things he mentions in passing during a recipe.
It's a nice first world problem worrying about the origins food preparation. Let's pray that we remain a first world nation being able to afford such luxuries.
I honestly used to think he was some food scientist when I first saw a few of his videos. But it appears with a journalism background you need to do the same attribution as we do with our research papers.
Wonderful talk on giving credit for source material. I’m often cited as an exception to this. People are shocked and sometimes delighted that I spend video time crediting my sources.
You've made your reputation, to me at least, as a competent and trustworthy historian. It's obvious that you work hard to find the true origins of the technologies you discuss, and your documentaries shine as a result.
The one question I have is this then. What do you do if you happen to come up with something on a convergent thought process but didn't do your appropriate research to confirm no one else did it? Also, saying before I continue, just asking and don't want it coming off as interrogative towards you. Just figured I'd message here rather than plain comments cause at least one person might respond. Moving on... Of course, everyone is going to call your bluff that you plagiarized or stole, which is a fair enough assumption, plenty have profited from doing that, so it's natural to suspect. I guess this would imply that appropriate research need be done in advance to stave off the chance of any such instances occurring. Of course, only the poster knows if they're being honest in saying they didn't get it from anyone. So I guess what then is there to do on emergence of similar ideas created by people never having crossed paths in a mental sharing sort of way (no exchange I guess I mean)? Idk, question I have had before. More so goes to writing stories that I'm asking this but this is about as valid in any other realm that deals with intellectual creations. If you read this and respond, thank you in advance.
Thanks for asking this good question. It helps to look at this from the bottom up. "Ingredients" are not all the same. So, a recipe is only as good as the ingredients it knew at the time of the writing of the recipe. Let me explain: I was a lucky member of a cooking class in the home of Marion Cunningham ("Fannie Farmer Cookbook") which ran for over three years. We met every other Saturday and every other Thursday Marion would get current ingredients for that recipe, which she might have made thousands of times before. When we asked why she had to "test" a recipe she probably knew "by heart", she said: "I need to know it's current and that it still works with any ingredients I can find today." Marion wrote for a vast audience, so she could not suggest hard-to-get items and she'd always say "ingredients change" ... our job in the class, besides eating what we cooked (!!) , was to read the recipes for coherence as a neophyte cook. She chose us for our lack of cooking experience because her book was for beginning cooks.
Hey Adam, as a fellow journalist, I wanted to say that one one of the things that first drew me to your channel was that I found out you had a journalism background. I don't work as a journalist anymore, but one of the defining skills of journalists is their record keeping and ethics. Keep up the great work, I'm happy to see that you've continued to use your journalism background to make the world a better place, even if it's not strictly "journalism."
@@diasahgasparias5991 Depends on who or what organization the Journalist is prepared to work for, also a lot of the worst journalists are all about entertainment, while pretending to be journalists, and then calling themselves entertainers when they get sued. There are a lot of excellent journists out there. Some of whom literally put their life on the line. Others not so much.
It's interesting to realize that Adam's description of how he researches and iterates on recipes kinda matches what I do at home when I'm trying something new.
This reminds me of CGP Greg's Tiffany source video. In it, he follows a poem, going through book after book, then to hundred year old tome to tome trying to find the primary source. It's interesting following rabbit holes like this, credited papers can seem to be monolithic in their certainty, but humans are humans, and who knows maybe some guy in the 14th century wrote it down wrong and we've all been copying some guys shitty homework ever since. Great video!!
I believe it was either that CGP Grey video or the one on the Staten Island ownership that complained about the issue of "circular citation". Which in short is when 10 different sources cite eachother in such a way that it forms a complete circle and is unachored from any actual primary source. Especially problematic today with the internet and the very low effort barrier to finding a "valid source" just google and whatever is in the box at the top is clearly the indisputable truth. (Despite being an exerpt from one of its top results, which could easily be a baseless article self perpetuating a lie) Very similar to how hard it is to legally resurrect yourself if you are falsely emtered as dead in a database and if you get fixed in 1 database it will likely see that you are dead in another and update itself to match. (Becomimg a very frustrating game a wack a mole that probably ends with just becoming a new person legally rather than getting removed from one of these databases)
Really cool of you to cover this topic. I think this is one of those things that helps everyone when we talk about it more. That being said, I know this is a vulnerable thing to cover, so props to you for putting yourself out there with it.
Shared recipes are literally directions/instructions, thus meant to be copied by others. Acknowledgement ethically should be given if you’re copying a huge percentage of a highly specific published recipe you sought out but you shouldn’t feel pressured to compensate anyone. This is just my opinion
I agree. A recipe seems like the sort of thing to be in the public domain. To play devils advocate the only thing I can think of that wouldn't fit into the idea of public domain would be if you had a novel method of preparation or presentation. As an example, no one owns the recipe for an Ice Cream Sundae, but you might make a "Platt & Colt's "Sunday"". It might be frowned upon to mass produce and sell a product specifically copying another persons business idea, but making one for yourself or your friends, or building upon the existing idea would be okay.
@@Hyraethian if the *method* is novel there is probably some kind of specific device being used; in which case there’s definitely a way of getting patent protection for awhile. If someone creates a very novel recipe that has never been done before but no special device is used to make it then you’re allowed to keep some of recipe’s ingredients private _(as long as you disclose that priority allergens are in the product and the nutrition facts are relatively accurate)_ - these are referred to as “trade secrets”. It’s why some foods and beverages just have vague terms like “spice blend” or “natural and artificial flavors” or “emulsifiers” listed in the ingredient section; they created something unique they don’t want others unfairly profiting off of. So yeah, I definitely agree people & businesses with novel methods of preparation and unique secret formulas should have the rights to their inventions protected but once they intentionally decide to *share* all that information with the public _(like explaining the full secret recipe & how to perform unique preparation methods in a published cookbook or posting it on a company website)_ then at that point they kind of surrender the right to want compensation or expect people to not be copying it & selling it
I think we can drawn an analogy to music, and later in my comment to software. A song is generally made through great effort, and then is played kn the radio where many people learn the lyrics and some could even play by ear. (Mozart famously needed only 2 listenings to steal a song from the Vatican). And many artists will sell sheet music so their fans can learn exactly how to play at home for firemds and family, this is nearly identical to how recipies are shared so people can make a dish at home. What is important to realize about intellectual property laws are that everyone fundamentally just wants to provide for themselves and their family so all professional artists have a profit motive. (Its litterally how they feed themselves and their children). Now if someone took that song that a band published sheet music for and expressly tried to claim it as their own with 0 credit that is full theft because it is maliciously taking away someone else's means of providing for their family. (Note, the music industry has a history of covers and remasters but all of this normally involves full credit being given and has been agreed to by all as how anyone starts in the industry, as a cover band learning to make good music) As for my software analogy, all code has copyright and licensing associated with it. Some code is expressly open source so you can use it but you must obey the license's terms and conditions. And some code isn't exactly copyrightable because there are only so many ways to right a basic algorithm to multiply 2 matrices. (Although comments, names, formatting, and bugs will still reveal stollen code of this nature) I think of these snippets as being analogous to "cultural recipes" like spaghetti and meatballs or hamburgers, something that fundamentally can't be copyrighted (the same way code for multiplying matrices cant, the algorithm is public knowledge) but the exact method used for preparation can arguably be considered unique to a given person. (Like your grandma's cake recipe) personally i think these should be attributed to the person who's recipe you used or slightly modified. (If modified say you modified "insert person's name"'s recipe) If someone has a signature dish like making icecream the looks like fried chicken then that full recipe should definitely count as their intellectual property the same way a song fully belongs to the artist, and even if shared so home cooks can try their hand at it, anybody who wants to make money off of it should pay royalties (and need permission) to sell either the recipe via cookbook or the finished product. Tldr: just because a recipe is being shared for home imitation/use doesn't mean its ok to use it commercially, ethically and realistically it shouldn't be ok legally either. IP laws are very important and possibly messy to figure out where the ethical lines are and where the legal lines should be drawn.
I love the wide variety of videos you make. Not only do I learn new recipes, but also the science behind it. And then I also get to learn thing about ethics and philosophy and some random, but interesting topics. Thank you so much for this 💕
Everybody uses recipes from elsewhere. The difference is, exactly how your demonstrated you do it in the beginning of the video. I think in Gordon Ramsay's autobiography, boiling point, he says every good chef should have as many cookbooks as he can. I think he states he has thousands. Start with a rough idea, take the meat from one, the sauce from another, etc etc each time adding your own element. Or mixing it up. If we didn't recreate in some way other's works, no progress would truly be made. I also make music, and sometimes I have difficulty coming up with original drums etc, so I'll use an old break. Just like every hip hop producer and all the edm producers during then jungle/prodigy days. The point is, you dont just use the break as is, you have to put your own twist on it. In all honesty, doing otherwise just isn't really that satisfying.
Your description of how you research and develop a recipe is exactly like my own. I always consult multiple sources, consider novel or unique interpretations or techniques, adjust to my own sensibilities and tastes, and go with it. I rarely am disappointed. I enjoy your channel Adam!
An interesting parallel I realised a while ago was that recipes and scientific discoveries are very similar - publications building on each others' descriptions of reproducible experimental results. A lot of the same questions apply to both and it's interesting that the answers seem to have come out about the same - citing is conventional but money rarely changes hands
Yeah, as a scientist I agree that citing recipes seems to make the most sense. It's not just experimental results that are cited, though: depending on the science, you also get theories, calculations, experimental techniques, etc. Honestly I'd say the last two are probably closer to "recipes".
Adam, Great presentation of an important issue amongst all TH-cam contributors and viewers, and, for any social media platform. Thank you. I hope it has an impact. Thanks also for showing the devotional candle of St. Anthony. Now our home would be incomplete without one!
I always just say if you’re copying a recipe verbatim, just come out and say it, and also if you get inspiration from a particular recipe it’s courteous to mention it by name. Anything else to me is a bit shady and not entirely fair
Yeah if you're heavily drawing something unique or exact measurements from a recipe just shout it out. otherwise who cares recipes for the same dish can be extremely similar.
yeah a diet cookbook author in my country has been under fire lately for this actually, a lot of the content of the books was copied word-for-word from people's blogs and instagrams, without any credit. I think even some of the photos were taken and her books are really famous here, so she was making a lot of money off other people's work! The bloggers/instagrammers got rightfully mad
Thank you for exploring the ethical quandaries of citing our sources via the internet, the importance of acknowledging the source creator in your works and also, thank you for the shout out to our beloved Anthony Bourdain. May he Rest In Peace 🕯
And of course, there are excellent reasons why this is true, having to do with not letting one realm of intellectual property protection leak over into another one. The canonical example of this, of course, is Harley-Davidson trying to get a trademark for the potato potato exhaust note of the V-twin engine. Their patent on the design of the engine has long since worn out, but if they were granted a trademark on the sound, nobody else would be able to produce a V-twin engine, since they all make the same noise. Luckily, the government intellectual-property apparatus realized this and turned them down flat on the trademark claim.
Sort of true. Not all V-twins make the same noise, as the noise depends on a mix of the bank angle / crankpin angle / firing interval. If Harley had been successful in that patent, it wouldn't have applied to other V-twins. I think it'd have also set a confusing precedent, since in theory, an inline 4 with a crossplane crankshaft could make the same noise as a 90 degree V4 - but they are, engineering wise, very different layouts.
I remember watching your talk last year, I remember the event as a whole being more pedantic than I was ready for but overall very insightful! Glad to see an updated video here with more accessible terminology for me to understand better 🙂
@@iliketostayhome Too funny. I live in a country where they don't sell molasses. You'll find some (barely) brown sugar in stores and then white sugar obvs. I'll have to find one of the two or three sugar companies in the country and ask them what they use the molasses for.
An interesting topic I've never considered before! I'm loving these new topics you're branching off to, Adam, they kinda remind me of the lessons I get from Ann Reardon/HowtoCookThat 🥰
Always appreciate insight into your creative process, not to mention it's great being able to hear the material you've prepared for events I'll never be able to attend. Keep up the good work!
I’m a bread maker and look up several recipes to make one. I get the idea, ingredients I want to use, and make my own recipe up. It’s now my recipe. If you take an exact recipe, share it to make profits from it, that’s different. So as long as you change a recipe that’s posted on the Internet, it’s not proprietary. I don’t share recipes from a bread book, by screen shot. I tell where they can find it.
This reminds me of what a history professor explained to me about citations. I had cited practically every line of an essay because I was so afraid of getting knocked for plagiarism. He explained to me that “if a majority of the populous knows or should know it, you don’t have to cite it. However, if it’s something more specific, cite that stuff.”
This reminds me of the tricky logistics in thr world of what I do- dance choreography. There's so much debate over ownership of movement and I was totally drawn into this topic because so much of this reflects how we as choreographers think on our own work. I credit teachers, especially when their method for education or specific practices have helped develop my own. Arguably , everything I create is in part borrowing from others. But it's my presentation of the work that makes it mine. When others steal exact choreography or when it's debated whether or not a studio I work for owns my choreography often becomes a moral question. So this gave me so many parallels to think on. Thanks so much for this!!! I'd love to discuss this topic much more!
'I got this information from this source,' is part of how the peer review citation system works. Booth mentions Suits mentions Caillois mentions Huizinga mentions Wittgenstein and the sequence lets you track backwards through the whole lineage.
I genuinely appreciate how Wes from high falutin low carb handles it when demonstrating someone else's recipe. Credit where the recipe comes from and direct people to the creator's website if they want measurements.
a story you might be interested in is Paseo in Seattle. A family owned restaurant went bankrupt and was bought by an investor. The recipes were not included in the transaction, so former employees recreated the recipe from memory. The two sons of the former owners started a new restaurant Un Bien with the original recipe 3 miles away. Trying both places it's easy to see how similar they are and it is a complicated ethical issue.
This conundrum you’re examining is very similar to the trope that successful artists steal. Artists can’t list their references or influences for a sculpture or painting because often times there are tens or hundreds of artworks from various media that provide inspiration for the piece. I hadn’t thought about this with cooking before, so I’m glad you made a video about it.
On your office scenario, I had done just that. Made rainbow cookies and brought them into work. Someone asked for the recipe and I told them that I would need a day to write down everything. So I printed the original recipe and then wrote up all the adjustments I had made to that original recipe separate and handed them both to them. And I explained that this is what mine is based on, here is everything I have changed to make it into what you just consumed. And I didn't change a ton but it was enough to make a significant difference in what everyone just experienced. But all my bases are covered, can't use one without the other and full credit is still given to the author.
This is one of the best videos I've seen. There is a nice separation between the domain of food, ethics, and attribution. Diving into the epistemological part of the problem was something that's not often considered. Shame on me for rolling my eyes when you said the U.S. Copyright Office invited you for a talk. Your foundation in critical thinking and presentation skills are inspiring.
Based on what you said your workflow is- that sounds like a reasonable version of “i came up with this” maybe with some “i was inspired by some recipes online” with a “and here are those if you want to look at them” But if you take a recipe, or maybe two, and make minor changes to them to where its still recognizable- then i would say offering credit with a “this recipe was inspired by/a tweak of these i found online:...” would be reasonable and expected
i would love if you did more vids where you showed the entire process of making a recipe, like each step you tested and what you changed for the next version and why.
Adam's workflow is the same -or at least similar enough- as a literature review in academia. I think in terms of ethics, a scholarly work has the implications that a third party may read your synthesis and want or need to follow your sources to theirs, to theirs, and so on. I think the central question is, does some one need to know how the recipe was derived? I don't think so. We all stand on the shoulders of giants in any trade we choose.
What about 'third parties'' interested in tweaking Adam's recipe to their own interests? Considering Adam's overall theme always involves adjusting things to his own taste, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in adjusting things to my own taste
Since nobody can really prove that nobody has ever combined ingredients and cooking steps in the exact same way in the past, I don’t think someone can “own” a recipe like rights to songs or other intellectual property. That’s why famous recipes like Classic Coke, and Kentucky Fried Chicken are kept secret. So you are not really stealing a recipe but courtesy would dictate that you give credit to where you got it unless you actually invented it.
The legal standard is just codified ethics so its good to pay attention to this even if you just want to know the legal standards. Professionally I managed to get myself into the ethics of AI which naturally leads to which ones of those are going to be legal standards like GDPR or laws California or New York are considering and I even talk to my company about it in presentations and bring up why those laws may be good.
I mean you'd think it's kinda moronic to copyright human culture but here we are... Good thing fire was invented a loooong time ago, before rules at best inspired by ethics governed all
I really like the questions/challenges you bring about the ownership of ideas. Is it ethical to claim ownership of something a team of workers you hired developed? Beyond that, what gave you the idea to attempt development? A lot of good questions to ask, especially in the context of food - something in proximity of everyone.
You can't "own" ideas. They're infinitely replicable and cannot be stolen, because the copying of such doesn't deprive the person you copied from of anything.
This is your most academic video to date (which is saying something based on your excellent and “casual” - and I mean that in the most positive way - inclusion of linguistic and peer-reviewed sources). Thank you, Adam!
I agree that recipe development is similar to scientific research, and think it would be great for you to include more references/citations in the video descriptions. It could be as simple as copying and pasting a link for each recipe you find in your initial search into a blank document, then you can just paste those in the description. It might not be used by everyone, but I'm sure some (like me) would love the opportunity to scan the references and decide for ourselves which techniques/ingredients are most suitable to our tastes. You're in a great position to start changing acknowledgment practices on 'cooking youtube' because you're a professed home cook without restaurant experience; you don't have as many ingrained practices stemming from training under a chef, therefore you can more easily provide a reference to the website/book you used. Something you might find useful in this kind of ethical dilemma is the concept of authorship guidelines used in many fields of science. Every field has its own variations but essentially they take into account every step of the scientific process and who contributed to them. Typically someone has to contribute in more than one area to be considered a coauthor on the final manuscript. If not, their names are often just placed in an 'acknowledgments' section to give them some credit.
Firstly, your hair is amazing. Second, the only time I had ever "owned" a recipe is working for hotels etc. But that basically came down to working on recipes during company time for the new menus. The recipes, per contract, were "owned" by the hotel. I didn't mean you couldn't recreate it...
Fun fact - Sqirl in Los Angeles had a controversy where the owner was telling employees to scrape the mold off of their jam preserves before serving it to customers. So yet another sketchy undertaking by this business.
@@kenmore01 Most foods called preserves aren't really preserves. They're basically cheap knock offs of preserves meant to taste better but spoil much quicker.
@@kenmore01 You clearly haven't had much jam my guy xd. It could literally cristalize from the sugar content and still spoil given the right conditions.
My Family owns a small restaurant and for decades we had a woman from our family baking a cake for us until she retired from it and we had to buy it from a bakery. Soon we noticed the cake was exactly the same. We did some research and about 4 generations back we are related and it was the same old family recipe.
This video is a really interesting examination of the ethics, details, and legalities behind attribution of authorship/ownership. Thanks for sharing it.
My rule of thumb is that I'll credit someone if I find a recipe/technique that I find particularly novel. Otherwise, _all_ recipes are a result of countless generations of aunties and uncles tinkering with amounts and techniques to achieve their desired effects. One example I take is my own recipe for roast duck. It's a combination of a huge amount of techniques and recipes from all over, and there's so many ways to roast a duck that there's no single right or authentic way, just as long as you don't burn it or undercook it, It'll probably be great. I don't call my recipe my own because it's nothing special, but in a way it kinda is; I just don't care.
Your thought processes are helping me to understand good practice when developing my own content which is totally unrelated to food but nonetheless involves many of the same research-like processes. The internet is both fantastic and frustrating. Far too many content developers are satisfied by simply repeating what they heard from others instead of investigating more deeply to be sure they aren't repeating incorrecthoods or outright falsehoods.
Recipes cannot be stolen. At the end of the day we're all sharing. That's the point of the culinary art. Food was made to bring people together. If you want to "own" a recipe have fun eating by yourself. That must be fun
@@chashubokchoy8999 Good comparison but I'd disagree. Technique is what separates 1 chef from another, less so the actual recipe. It's funny though bc I remember watching on the News years ago that a woman was selling KFC chicken or sumthin like that at her own restaurant claiming she cooked it. That 🤦♂️🤦♂️ that's where the line is clear. This is more a moral grey area
I lived in Germany, half a lifetime ago. Ice cream made to look like meals were really, really common. Ice cream would be piped into thin strands to resemble spaghetti, strawberry sauce would replace tomatoes and meatballs and white chocolate sprinkled on top for parmigana cheese. Children loved it. I think there was also a hot dog type of thing. This was in the 1980s. they didn't look as superb as Ms Wong work (she's an artist) but I think she could also have been on a sticky wicket to claim originality I used to work as an aerialist. when I first started I was lucky enough to have an amazing teacher/performer. he taught me a part of his choreography. I asked him 'aren't you worried I'll just use this in a piece of my own?' His response was "no, not really, you'll never do it quite like me" and of course he was right P.s I love chef John too. What a voice. What an inspiration p.p.s as are you. You should be a national treasure
This reminds me of Guga Foods, who copies recipes from various people and then says things like: "I like to put X and Y in my version, because it gives it it's unique taste."
ok? like if he says he prefers American cheese with his burger, does that mean that he stole the cheese burger recipe? because a lot of what he adds to his food is either very common or actually personal preference, sooo yeah.
@@BiggusNickus Not just dry aging but a massive fascination with Wagyu. They did it so much I unsubscribed and started calling them "Wagyu Everything" since sous vide was clearly no longer their focus as much as getting free/cheap Wagyu to promote on the channel.
@@ehrichweiss To be fair, it's their main channel that does most of the wagyu, not the sous vide channel. But it's true he's not been using sous vide in a lot of that channel's videos nowadays.
Interesting and sometimes thorny topic. When I make one of your recipes I do give you credit and tell people to check out your other recipe videos. I do make sever of your creations on a regular basis. Just tried the New York style pizza dough. May have become my new pizza dough. Probable added more flour than you did but it was very easy to handle and cooked up great in my brick oven.
Making the development references publicly available is good. Echoing first sources claims effects public opinion in association with the creditability of the repeater with little possibility of retraction. I'm an advocate of zero intellectual property for creative freedom. We should put funds where we want to see more development.
Intellectual property doesn't have the same economic justification (i.e. scarcity) that physical property does for exclusion and enforcement. If I "take" an idea from you, it doesn't prevent you from having that original idea. While I think this can be an issue, or at least really scummy, when profiteering gets involved, I wholeheartedly support people just sharing information for information's sake. It really doesn't bother me that my grandma didn't write down where she got her cornbread recipe from in the rolodex she uses to keep all her recipes in. Also, software patents are evil, and if you are actively enforcing one, then I hate you.
if you don't like IP how do you propose to incentivize people to create novel and productive ideas? To use your software example, why should I pay a team of programmers 120k a year to develop something if someone can just take the source code and start putting it out there for pennies on the dollar.
@@michaellhoover94 I said I don't like software patents, not (necessarily) intellectual property. And that's hardly an uncommon opinion among software developers. And the traditional proprietary software model you talk about, at least in the systems world that I live in, hasn't even been relevant for a few years now. Companies like Red Hat have been profiting from free software for decades. Look at all the MIT-licensed code released by giants like Google, Facebook, and Microsoft, and tell me how they're all losing billions of dollars by not selling their software.
@@MarkStoddard you know trade secret law is also an integral part of Ip law. What does it matter if you have an agreement with the software engineer who designs something if they're effectively judgment-proof after it gets leaked.
@@michaellhoover94 As an artist I can say IP law is unjust for the reasons that Myconic stated. All of it. Ideas are infinitely replicable, do not deprive anything from the person being copied from, and above all else they say that the state will forcibly take your property and give it to the IP-holder if they don't give you express permission. You can keep people from spreading trade secrets (casual usage of the term, not the IP Law version) via NDAs - contract law - if you prefer. That way people can voluntarily agree to your terms or not, but people not subject to those contracts are not prevented from copying, modifying and remixing.
Very thoughtful video. Even beyond the direct topic and expanding to "What do/can we know?" Very reassuring reminder that other people don't know what's known any more than me.
TH-cam cooking videos, just like on television, are first and foremost entertainment. The vast majority will never actually make the recipe and many people, such as college students, don't even have a kitchen. Many of us watched Chef John's Demi-Glace video and still watched your video, despite knowing it was an identical recipe. The fact that the creator essentially endorses the recipe as "good" is what drives traffic. Stealing recipes is much more meaningful in the context of a restaurant. For example a Portland Burrito shop flaunted their theft of recipes/techniques from other restaurants and was forced to shutdown after an outcry. The quality of food in a traditional restaurant significantly impacts its business. If you want to sell the novel recipe/technique then you should be the person who developed it or have permission from the creator. People deserve credit for their innovations if it is clear they did it.
I very much like the final conclusion you made. I do appreciate those who educate and spread useful information like you. I suppose the best thing for everyone is to do their best citing their sources down one or two levels
Imagine, if you will, a world where Reverend Sylvester Graham wholely owned the idea of the graham cracker. By all means attribute where you can and support the innovators when and where possible, but we are better off for being able to innovate when it comes to pure ideas... and that is mostly what a recipe is.
I love philosophy! This video is so interesting on many levels and i like the fact you do those videos more often now. When i watched your videos for the first time it wasn’t the recipe that made me like and subscribe; It was your way of talking and how you put it together. Imo those educational semi-philosophical videos are your thing and not cooking. The cooking is only one method that you expressed yourself in and “applied your perspective upon” (I couldn’t find a better way to phrase it). So what i mean to say here is keep at it Adam.
haven't watched the video yet, but just from the title, I'm going to say that making a meal is like playing a song. If you're just doing it in your own home, with your own tools, or for friends and family, etc, then fine. But if you start making money because of a recipe/song someone else gave you, morally you should at least cut them in. But the laws are going to be different wherever you go. So, since you qualify 'ethically' in your title, I would say the person/entity who actually write the recipes should get some form of credit or compensation. Just my opinion, I could be wrong! Now to watch the video! LOL! Cheers!
I'm reminded of ideas explored in Kirby Ferguson's "Everything is a Remix" series: creativity is far more derivative and borrowed than we think it is ... and that's fine. That's how culture works. To pinpoint when a novel idea came along is kind of a fool's errand.
As a computer scientist I immediately started thinking about the intellectual property of algorithms, which is essentially the exact same thing. After all algorithms are essentially recipes for computational results, and cooking recipes are essentially algorithms for creating food. Soon I found that everything in this video can be applied to computer science and software engineering as well, including the ethical and research part. I always enjoy when finding connection between seemingly unrelated topics. Just thought this was a fun observation
Even if every human lived in a vacuum from every other human, with the sheer number of people cooking from the same limited ingredients of the world, millions of people would eventually stumble across the same recipes. Something about monkeys locked in somewhere with typewriters and all…
@@shellyt556 well by nature of humans, 100% of humans will deal with recipes because 100% of humans need to eat to survive, but no human needs music to survive. If even 1% of humans needed music to survive, you could bet there would be more types of music than we have, but would never reach the diversity of recipes unless 100% of humans also needed music to live.
Ironically when a dish becomes a national or regional tradition it's because everyone in the area copied the original creator so many times that no one knows who the hell made it originally.
Well, yes, but actually I would call this a traditional Hungarian cake, even though we know the original creator: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobos_torte
Not usually no.
The people of a country typically make their "national dish" about as many ways as there are people that cook it.
And some of those recipes are simply practices that are literally older than modern humans being codified.
Thing is there's usually never an "original creator". Everything is a remix. In the culinary arts we accept that. Even if a novel, signature dish is attributed to a single person everybody knows that is derived from what came before.
@@lordgarion514 Just because everyone has their take on something doesn't mean someone didn't come up with the idea originally. Every airplane company has a take on how to make a airplane, but we can clearly trace back to a handful of people who came up with the idea.
As with any invention once the knowledge is out there people tweak and adjust it.
I misread the title as "Who (ethnically) owns recipes" and thought Adam was going to talk about food gatekeeping culture. (i.e. Italians against "alternative" pizzas and pastas (NY Style, Filipino spaghetti), Mexicans against Tex-Mex food, etc.)
That would make a very interesting video, though.
Italians really are the strongest responders to what is "wrong" with food. Just because no one orders a cappuccino after 11am in Italy, doesn't mean that it's the right call. So many rules.
@@SlavicCelery I just had an oat juice cappuccino at 2100 and probably caused some ones head in Italy to explode for the sheer audacity of it :)=
That's a good question since a lot of food is "fusion" because of the movement of people, either by force or by economic choice. Mexican food is a major example of this because even foods that have become national dishes are results of colonization.
@@SlavicCelery Italians have "their" food adopted or corporatized by every ethnicity on the planet and don't complain at all about it - or at least, they won't racialize that adoption. If an Italian opened up a Mexican or Arabic food place, they'd never hear the end of it.
I misread it as well, and was thinking of cases where people complain about "misappropriation" of ethnic foods. 🙄
I own all of the recipes.
Damn, I guess you defeated copyright
This the culinary lore guardian
We have no way to dispute this
Damn.
You mean we?
All recipes can be traced back to someone's grandmother, so she gets all the credit.
I also just told my mom about the concept of the video, and she said the same thing: a grandma, of course!!
Honest to goodness, yeah. That's the truth. Lol.
Its your serious journalistic integrity, your consistency in making sure to questions like the ones in this video, that keeps me coming back to your channel.
I only return to find out what to season instead of my steak.
@@jdavis37378 man. this was squarespace. chill out. also you are absolutely wrong but whatever.
You've fallen hard, likewise though ☺️
Yeah some of the sponsors he's done have very very seriously reduced the respect I have for him. The vitamins especially, such awful and uncritical blind support for what's ultimately lies
@@Thecilveks so can you point out any "unjust" sponsorships? please do come back when you have a half decent answer.
I feel that this is an extended attempt to entice Chef John into a collaboration video with you.
I mean, that'd be my food wish.
Nice
And a pinch of cayenne…
I mean you are after all the Dr. Seussia of your collab with Ragusea!
I mean you are after all, the reason for which part of the dish you season.
I don't think Adam does collabs with other youtubers.
In the culinary world, everyone steals from everyone, period.
I wouldn’t call it stealing I’d call it inspiration tbh cooking is creative if you think about it
and in every time we create something, we are the ghosts of the past
Same thing with music
what if your recipe uses a man-made element on the periodic table of elements?
@@tylerrose4416 Ha, I almost said "sampling," but that's not completely legal.
As a musician/educator, I truly felt Adam's frustration in this video. This stuff is TEDIOUS, to say the least. But it's also IMPORTANT as well. Thank you for your diligent thought, research, time, etc. on the ownership of ideas. Too many creators don't give enough thought to this subject and if they do, it very often becomes a strictly legal discussion. I'm glad that Ragusea dug deeper and didn't shy away from the ethical issues. Great video as always!
@@moomoocowsly I never said anything to contradict what you're saying here. I merely said it's important to have discourse on a very complicated subject and that I appreciate Ragusea taking the time and effort to distill that conversation into an easily consumed video. I don't want cooks/chefs to be able to copyright recipes, but I do think a musician has every right to own their songs. Ownership of ideas, and also how we go about crediting who and where we got those ideas from is an IMPORTANT conversation to be had.
Something I appreciate about Adam is that he brings in important academic considerations/questions to a lay public through the use of food and food vlogging. I could get a recipe for a dish from so many different sources but what I have grown to appreciate more and more from Adam is that he also brings in important thought provoking questions and ideas. As someone trained in the social sciences, I think this is an important step in curtailing the escalation of anti intellectualism that has become more and more pervasive. Something else I appreciate, he doesn't talk down to his audience.
Couldnt agree more 🙂
Also his recipe videos include WHY and aren't just commands. I've learned so much about cooking just from things he mentions in passing during a recipe.
He is a great teacher.
It's a nice first world problem worrying about the origins food preparation. Let's pray that we remain a first world nation being able to afford such luxuries.
I honestly used to think he was some food scientist when I first saw a few of his videos. But it appears with a journalism background you need to do the same attribution as we do with our research papers.
Wonderful talk on giving credit for source material. I’m often cited as an exception to this. People are shocked and sometimes delighted that I spend video time crediting my sources.
You've made your reputation, to me at least, as a competent and trustworthy historian. It's obvious that you work hard to find the true origins of the technologies you discuss, and your documentaries shine as a result.
i love five watt world
Love your channel!
It’s refreshing to see a TH-camr who cares about the ethics of what they do, and puts actual thought into it
The one question I have is this then. What do you do if you happen to come up with something on a convergent thought process but didn't do your appropriate research to confirm no one else did it? Also, saying before I continue, just asking and don't want it coming off as interrogative towards you. Just figured I'd message here rather than plain comments cause at least one person might respond. Moving on... Of course, everyone is going to call your bluff that you plagiarized or stole, which is a fair enough assumption, plenty have profited from doing that, so it's natural to suspect. I guess this would imply that appropriate research need be done in advance to stave off the chance of any such instances occurring. Of course, only the poster knows if they're being honest in saying they didn't get it from anyone. So I guess what then is there to do on emergence of similar ideas created by people never having crossed paths in a mental sharing sort of way (no exchange I guess I mean)? Idk, question I have had before. More so goes to writing stories that I'm asking this but this is about as valid in any other realm that deals with intellectual creations. If you read this and respond, thank you in advance.
Thanks for asking this good question. It helps to look at this from the bottom up. "Ingredients" are not all the same. So, a recipe is only as good as the ingredients it knew at the time of the writing of the recipe. Let me explain: I was a lucky member of a cooking class in the home of Marion Cunningham ("Fannie Farmer Cookbook") which ran for over three years. We met every other Saturday and every other Thursday Marion would get current ingredients for that recipe, which she might have made thousands of times before. When we asked why she had to "test" a recipe she probably knew "by heart", she said: "I need to know it's current and that it still works with any ingredients I can find today." Marion wrote for a vast audience, so she could not suggest hard-to-get items and she'd always say "ingredients change" ... our job in the class, besides eating what we cooked (!!) , was to read the recipes for coherence as a neophyte cook. She chose us for our lack of cooking experience because her book was for beginning cooks.
Hey Adam, as a fellow journalist, I wanted to say that one one of the things that first drew me to your channel was that I found out you had a journalism background. I don't work as a journalist anymore, but one of the defining skills of journalists is their record keeping and ethics. Keep up the great work, I'm happy to see that you've continued to use your journalism background to make the world a better place, even if it's not strictly "journalism."
@@diasahgasparias5991 Depends on who or what organization the Journalist is prepared to work for, also a lot of the worst journalists are all about entertainment, while pretending to be journalists, and then calling themselves entertainers when they get sued. There are a lot of excellent journists out there. Some of whom literally put their life on the line. Others not so much.
Your channel goes way beyond just cooking for me thanks to the amount of work and research you put into every video
"Great artists steal, or whatever." - Me (after ripping off some guy)
"I am a great art thief." -- James K (paraphrased from memory)
"Great artists steal, or whatever." - Me (after ripping off some guy)
@@unarmedduck "Great artists steal, or whatever." - Me (after ripping off some guy)
@@unarmedduck That's an amazing quote you came up with there.
@@jakimoretti7771 "Great artists steal, or whatever." - Me ('copy and paste'ing somthing im pretending i leaned but will not remember tomorrow)
It's interesting to realize that Adam's description of how he researches and iterates on recipes kinda matches what I do at home when I'm trying something new.
I love introspective videos like these. Such a complex question and a fascinating exploration of possible answers. Thank you Adam.
This reminds me of CGP Greg's Tiffany source video. In it, he follows a poem, going through book after book, then to hundred year old tome to tome trying to find the primary source. It's interesting following rabbit holes like this, credited papers can seem to be monolithic in their certainty, but humans are humans, and who knows maybe some guy in the 14th century wrote it down wrong and we've all been copying some guys shitty homework ever since. Great video!!
"Hexagons are the bestigons"
…CGP Grey perhaps?
@@jamescanjuggle that will never get old
If you listen closely, you can still hear him swearing at tumbles.
I believe it was either that CGP Grey video or the one on the Staten Island ownership that complained about the issue of "circular citation".
Which in short is when 10 different sources cite eachother in such a way that it forms a complete circle and is unachored from any actual primary source. Especially problematic today with the internet and the very low effort barrier to finding a "valid source" just google and whatever is in the box at the top is clearly the indisputable truth. (Despite being an exerpt from one of its top results, which could easily be a baseless article self perpetuating a lie)
Very similar to how hard it is to legally resurrect yourself if you are falsely emtered as dead in a database and if you get fixed in 1 database it will likely see that you are dead in another and update itself to match. (Becomimg a very frustrating game a wack a mole that probably ends with just becoming a new person legally rather than getting removed from one of these databases)
Really cool of you to cover this topic. I think this is one of those things that helps everyone when we talk about it more. That being said, I know this is a vulnerable thing to cover, so props to you for putting yourself out there with it.
Shared recipes are literally directions/instructions, thus meant to be copied by others. Acknowledgement ethically should be given if you’re copying a huge percentage of a highly specific published recipe you sought out but you shouldn’t feel pressured to compensate anyone.
This is just my opinion
I agree. A recipe seems like the sort of thing to be in the public domain.
To play devils advocate the only thing I can think of that wouldn't fit into the idea of public domain would be if you had a novel method of preparation or presentation. As an example, no one owns the recipe for an Ice Cream Sundae, but you might make a "Platt & Colt's "Sunday"". It might be frowned upon to mass produce and sell a product specifically copying another persons business idea, but making one for yourself or your friends, or building upon the existing idea would be okay.
@@Hyraethian if the *method* is novel there is probably some kind of specific device being used; in which case there’s definitely a way of getting patent protection for awhile.
If someone creates a very novel recipe that has never been done before but no special device is used to make it then you’re allowed to keep some of recipe’s ingredients private _(as long as you disclose that priority allergens are in the product and the nutrition facts are relatively accurate)_ - these are referred to as “trade secrets”. It’s why some foods and beverages just have vague terms like “spice blend” or “natural and artificial flavors” or “emulsifiers” listed in the ingredient section; they created something unique they don’t want others unfairly profiting off of.
So yeah, I definitely agree people & businesses with novel methods of preparation and unique secret formulas should have the rights to their inventions protected but once they intentionally decide to *share* all that information with the public _(like explaining the full secret recipe & how to perform unique preparation methods in a published cookbook or posting it on a company website)_ then at that point they kind of surrender the right to want compensation or expect people to not be copying it & selling it
@@maenad1231 That is a comprehensive comment that I both learned from and agree with.
I think we can drawn an analogy to music, and later in my comment to software. A song is generally made through great effort, and then is played kn the radio where many people learn the lyrics and some could even play by ear. (Mozart famously needed only 2 listenings to steal a song from the Vatican). And many artists will sell sheet music so their fans can learn exactly how to play at home for firemds and family, this is nearly identical to how recipies are shared so people can make a dish at home.
What is important to realize about intellectual property laws are that everyone fundamentally just wants to provide for themselves and their family so all professional artists have a profit motive. (Its litterally how they feed themselves and their children). Now if someone took that song that a band published sheet music for and expressly tried to claim it as their own with 0 credit that is full theft because it is maliciously taking away someone else's means of providing for their family. (Note, the music industry has a history of covers and remasters but all of this normally involves full credit being given and has been agreed to by all as how anyone starts in the industry, as a cover band learning to make good music)
As for my software analogy, all code has copyright and licensing associated with it. Some code is expressly open source so you can use it but you must obey the license's terms and conditions. And some code isn't exactly copyrightable because there are only so many ways to right a basic algorithm to multiply 2 matrices. (Although comments, names, formatting, and bugs will still reveal stollen code of this nature) I think of these snippets as being analogous to "cultural recipes" like spaghetti and meatballs or hamburgers, something that fundamentally can't be copyrighted (the same way code for multiplying matrices cant, the algorithm is public knowledge) but the exact method used for preparation can arguably be considered unique to a given person. (Like your grandma's cake recipe) personally i think these should be attributed to the person who's recipe you used or slightly modified. (If modified say you modified "insert person's name"'s recipe)
If someone has a signature dish like making icecream the looks like fried chicken then that full recipe should definitely count as their intellectual property the same way a song fully belongs to the artist, and even if shared so home cooks can try their hand at it, anybody who wants to make money off of it should pay royalties (and need permission) to sell either the recipe via cookbook or the finished product.
Tldr: just because a recipe is being shared for home imitation/use doesn't mean its ok to use it commercially, ethically and realistically it shouldn't be ok legally either.
IP laws are very important and possibly messy to figure out where the ethical lines are and where the legal lines should be drawn.
I love the wide variety of videos you make. Not only do I learn new recipes, but also the science behind it. And then I also get to learn thing about ethics and philosophy and some random, but interesting topics. Thank you so much for this 💕
It amazes me how much work and thought goes into Adams videos, keep up the good work!
Everybody uses recipes from elsewhere. The difference is, exactly how your demonstrated you do it in the beginning of the video. I think in Gordon Ramsay's autobiography, boiling point, he says every good chef should have as many cookbooks as he can. I think he states he has thousands. Start with a rough idea, take the meat from one, the sauce from another, etc etc each time adding your own element. Or mixing it up. If we didn't recreate in some way other's works, no progress would truly be made. I also make music, and sometimes I have difficulty coming up with original drums etc, so I'll use an old break. Just like every hip hop producer and all the edm producers during then jungle/prodigy days. The point is, you dont just use the break as is, you have to put your own twist on it. In all honesty, doing otherwise just isn't really that satisfying.
Your description of how you research and develop a recipe is exactly like my own. I always consult multiple sources, consider novel or unique interpretations or techniques, adjust to my own sensibilities and tastes, and go with it. I rarely am disappointed. I enjoy your channel Adam!
An interesting parallel I realised a while ago was that recipes and scientific discoveries are very similar - publications building on each others' descriptions of reproducible experimental results. A lot of the same questions apply to both and it's interesting that the answers seem to have come out about the same - citing is conventional but money rarely changes hands
Well cooking is just tasty chemistry
Unless you're using patented tech
Yeah, as a scientist I agree that citing recipes seems to make the most sense. It's not just experimental results that are cited, though: depending on the science, you also get theories, calculations, experimental techniques, etc. Honestly I'd say the last two are probably closer to "recipes".
Chemistry is cooking science
As a wise mine once said:"Shout out to all the early humans who perished figuring out what was save to eat"
Were you startled when the mine started to talk?
A wise mine!
Save?
Mind-boggling.
@@silverplug I would be.
If stealing recipes becomes a crime then we're all gonna be in trouble every night lol
Not really. This was just about creating commercial media products based on some one else's recipes, not just cooking it.
@@simstar6557 you're going to jail
@@LTPottenger I plead guilty to my crockpot crimes your honour.
That's why that'll never e the case ^^
But Adam didn't talk just about legal questions, but also ethical, the two are not always the same thing ^^
Adam, Great presentation of an important issue amongst all TH-cam contributors and viewers, and, for any social media platform. Thank you. I hope it has an impact.
Thanks also for showing the devotional candle of St. Anthony. Now our home would be incomplete without one!
I always just say if you’re copying a recipe verbatim, just come out and say it, and also if you get inspiration from a particular recipe it’s courteous to mention it by name. Anything else to me is a bit shady and not entirely fair
Pretty reasonable imo
no
Yeah if you're heavily drawing something unique or exact measurements from a recipe just shout it out. otherwise who cares recipes for the same dish can be extremely similar.
@@howdareyouexist you showed them
yeah a diet cookbook author in my country has been under fire lately for this actually, a lot of the content of the books was copied word-for-word from people's blogs and instagrams, without any credit. I think even some of the photos were taken and her books are really famous here, so she was making a lot of money off other people's work! The bloggers/instagrammers got rightfully mad
This was such an interesting topic. Thanks Adam for always going into these topics that no one else covers!
Thank you for exploring the ethical quandaries of citing our sources via the internet, the importance of acknowledging the source creator in your works and also, thank you for the shout out to our beloved Anthony Bourdain. May he Rest In Peace 🕯
@Clara yikes...
I love the candle :)
Great video. I really enjoy insights into your processes and struggles. That's part of what makes your content so special.
And of course, there are excellent reasons why this is true, having to do with not letting one realm of intellectual property protection leak over into another one.
The canonical example of this, of course, is Harley-Davidson trying to get a trademark for the potato potato exhaust note of the V-twin engine.
Their patent on the design of the engine has long since worn out, but if they were granted a trademark on the sound, nobody else would be able to produce a V-twin engine, since they all make the same noise. Luckily, the government intellectual-property apparatus realized this and turned them down flat on the trademark claim.
Sort of true. Not all V-twins make the same noise, as the noise depends on a mix of the bank angle / crankpin angle / firing interval. If Harley had been successful in that patent, it wouldn't have applied to other V-twins. I think it'd have also set a confusing precedent, since in theory, an inline 4 with a crossplane crankshaft could make the same noise as a 90 degree V4 - but they are, engineering wise, very different layouts.
I remember watching your talk last year, I remember the event as a whole being more pedantic than I was ready for but overall very insightful! Glad to see an updated video here with more accessible terminology for me to understand better 🙂
is it online?
@@jhonshephard921 yup, check the video description
Next episode: Adam (ethically) breaks into your house and destroys your brown sugar
@꧁Christopher꧂ then you're racist
@꧁Christopher꧂ he will pour molasses into it, mix it, and then later destroy it
@sweet girls 2 if I wanted to see spoiled girls, I'd watch gordon Ramsay's hotel hell episode Calumet Inn!
@@iliketostayhome Too funny. I live in a country where they don't sell molasses. You'll find some (barely) brown sugar in stores and then white sugar obvs.
I'll have to find one of the two or three sugar companies in the country and ask them what they use the molasses for.
Honestly, of all the things Adam posts, that episode has provided the most use in my daily cooking. I haven't bought brown sugar in ages.
Your videos are always extremely interesting and educational. I love watching them. Keep up the great content!
An interesting topic I've never considered before! I'm loving these new topics you're branching off to, Adam, they kinda remind me of the lessons I get from Ann Reardon/HowtoCookThat 🥰
This video, specifically the dialogue, is just fantastic from start to finish.
I really love these videos. Wasn't expecting to question ethics from my favourite cooking youtuber!
Always appreciate insight into your creative process, not to mention it's great being able to hear the material you've prepared for events I'll never be able to attend. Keep up the good work!
I’m a bread maker and look up several recipes to make one. I get the idea, ingredients I want to use, and make my own recipe up. It’s now my recipe. If you take an exact recipe, share it to make profits from it, that’s different. So as long as you change a recipe that’s posted on the Internet, it’s not proprietary. I don’t share recipes from a bread book, by screen shot. I tell where they can find it.
Major props for that sponsorship. It served as an analogy, and as a secondary money maker.
This reminds me of what a history professor explained to me about citations. I had cited practically every line of an essay because I was so afraid of getting knocked for plagiarism. He explained to me that “if a majority of the populous knows or should know it, you don’t have to cite it. However, if it’s something more specific, cite that stuff.”
This reminds me of the tricky logistics in thr world of what I do- dance choreography. There's so much debate over ownership of movement and I was totally drawn into this topic because so much of this reflects how we as choreographers think on our own work.
I credit teachers, especially when their method for education or specific practices have helped develop my own. Arguably , everything I create is in part borrowing from others. But it's my presentation of the work that makes it mine. When others steal exact choreography or when it's debated whether or not a studio I work for owns my choreography often becomes a moral question. So this gave me so many parallels to think on. Thanks so much for this!!! I'd love to discuss this topic much more!
'I got this information from this source,' is part of how the peer review citation system works. Booth mentions Suits mentions Caillois mentions Huizinga mentions Wittgenstein and the sequence lets you track backwards through the whole lineage.
This is why I love your videos. At one moment intellectual and deep into a complex issue, and then the next just food shots. Love it.
IT ALWAYS COMES BACK TO CHEF JOHN, THE GOAT
I genuinely appreciate how Wes from high falutin low carb handles it when demonstrating someone else's recipe. Credit where the recipe comes from and direct people to the creator's website if they want measurements.
a story you might be interested in is Paseo in Seattle. A family owned restaurant went bankrupt and was bought by an investor. The recipes were not included in the transaction, so former employees recreated the recipe from memory. The two sons of the former owners started a new restaurant Un Bien with the original recipe 3 miles away. Trying both places it's easy to see how similar they are and it is a complicated ethical issue.
How can a recipe for a food item in a restaurant be property of that restaurant? It isn't like this legally, right?
I find it all kinda stupid... but as they say "play stupid games, win stupid prizes",
This conundrum you’re examining is very similar to the trope that successful artists steal. Artists can’t list their references or influences for a sculpture or painting because often times there are tens or hundreds of artworks from various media that provide inspiration for the piece. I hadn’t thought about this with cooking before, so I’m glad you made a video about it.
If you haven't seen it, check the video "Everything is a Remix."
On your office scenario, I had done just that. Made rainbow cookies and brought them into work. Someone asked for the recipe and I told them that I would need a day to write down everything. So I printed the original recipe and then wrote up all the adjustments I had made to that original recipe separate and handed them both to them. And I explained that this is what mine is based on, here is everything I have changed to make it into what you just consumed. And I didn't change a ton but it was enough to make a significant difference in what everyone just experienced. But all my bases are covered, can't use one without the other and full credit is still given to the author.
This is one of the best videos I've seen. There is a nice separation between the domain of food, ethics, and attribution. Diving into the epistemological part of the problem was something that's not often considered. Shame on me for rolling my eyes when you said the U.S. Copyright Office invited you for a talk. Your foundation in critical thinking and presentation skills are inspiring.
Based on what you said your workflow is- that sounds like a reasonable version of “i came up with this” maybe with some “i was inspired by some recipes online” with a “and here are those if you want to look at them”
But if you take a recipe, or maybe two, and make minor changes to them to where its still recognizable- then i would say offering credit with a “this recipe was inspired by/a tweak of these i found online:...” would be reasonable and expected
Adam your critical thinking on seemingly benign topics is fascinating and something I definitely relate with. Thanks for the awesome content as always
i would love if you did more vids where you showed the entire process of making a recipe, like each step you tested and what you changed for the next version and why.
This channel has answers to questions I didn't know I had.
Adam's workflow is the same -or at least similar enough- as a literature review in academia. I think in terms of ethics, a scholarly work has the implications that a third party may read your synthesis and want or need to follow your sources to theirs, to theirs, and so on. I think the central question is, does some one need to know how the recipe was derived? I don't think so. We all stand on the shoulders of giants in any trade we choose.
What about 'third parties'' interested in tweaking Adam's recipe to their own interests? Considering Adam's overall theme always involves adjusting things to his own taste, I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in adjusting things to my own taste
I didn't know you used to be a journalist, but that makes a lot of sense. Your videos are always well researched and communicated. :)
Since nobody can really prove that nobody has ever combined ingredients and cooking steps in the exact same way in the past, I don’t think someone can “own” a recipe like rights to songs or other intellectual property. That’s why famous recipes like Classic Coke, and Kentucky Fried Chicken are kept secret. So you are not really stealing a recipe but courtesy would dictate that you give credit to where you got it unless you actually invented it.
The legal standard is just codified ethics so its good to pay attention to this even if you just want to know the legal standards. Professionally I managed to get myself into the ethics of AI which naturally leads to which ones of those are going to be legal standards like GDPR or laws California or New York are considering and I even talk to my company about it in presentations and bring up why those laws may be good.
I mean you'd think it's kinda moronic to copyright human culture but here we are... Good thing fire was invented a loooong time ago, before rules at best inspired by ethics governed all
I watched your Copyright Office video first before I started this. Didn't know it was a repeat in a better format 😭
I really like the questions/challenges you bring about the ownership of ideas. Is it ethical to claim ownership of something a team of workers you hired developed? Beyond that, what gave you the idea to attempt development?
A lot of good questions to ask, especially in the context of food - something in proximity of everyone.
Now that's a cool philosophical rabbit hole!
Hope more people go down it :D
You can't "own" ideas. They're infinitely replicable and cannot be stolen, because the copying of such doesn't deprive the person you copied from of anything.
This is your most academic video to date (which is saying something based on your excellent and “casual” - and I mean that in the most positive way - inclusion of linguistic and peer-reviewed sources). Thank you, Adam!
I agree that recipe development is similar to scientific research, and think it would be great for you to include more references/citations in the video descriptions. It could be as simple as copying and pasting a link for each recipe you find in your initial search into a blank document, then you can just paste those in the description. It might not be used by everyone, but I'm sure some (like me) would love the opportunity to scan the references and decide for ourselves which techniques/ingredients are most suitable to our tastes. You're in a great position to start changing acknowledgment practices on 'cooking youtube' because you're a professed home cook without restaurant experience; you don't have as many ingrained practices stemming from training under a chef, therefore you can more easily provide a reference to the website/book you used.
Something you might find useful in this kind of ethical dilemma is the concept of authorship guidelines used in many fields of science. Every field has its own variations but essentially they take into account every step of the scientific process and who contributed to them. Typically someone has to contribute in more than one area to be considered a coauthor on the final manuscript. If not, their names are often just placed in an 'acknowledgments' section to give them some credit.
Love the video. As a librarian, educator, and fellow Adam, this is something that is always on my mind.
Firstly, your hair is amazing.
Second, the only time I had ever "owned" a recipe is working for hotels etc. But that basically came down to working on recipes during company time for the new menus. The recipes, per contract, were "owned" by the hotel. I didn't mean you couldn't recreate it...
This was the video I needed to see! I struggle with this on the daily when thinking of who to credit. Thanks a lot Adam
Fun fact - Sqirl in Los Angeles had a controversy where the owner was telling employees to scrape the mold off of their jam preserves before serving it to customers. So yet another sketchy undertaking by this business.
While I believe you are correct and there was a controversy, I don't believe that happened. Preserves are notoriously mold free. Thus the name.
@@kenmore01 even jams and preserves can get moldy once the jar has been opened
@@kenmore01 Most foods called preserves aren't really preserves. They're basically cheap knock offs of preserves meant to taste better but spoil much quicker.
That wasn’t a fun fact :(
@@kenmore01 You clearly haven't had much jam my guy xd.
It could literally cristalize from the sugar content and still spoil given the right conditions.
asking the real questions. and giving your version of the answer as well. Thanks Adam!
My Family owns a small restaurant and for decades we had a woman from our family baking a cake for us until she retired from it and we had to buy it from a bakery.
Soon we noticed the cake was exactly the same. We did some research and about 4 generations back we are related and it was the same old family recipe.
A great synthesis of ideas and questions, Adam! I'll definitely be taking these forward with me, and I'll be sure to give you credit XD
This video is a really interesting examination of the ethics, details, and legalities behind attribution of authorship/ownership. Thanks for sharing it.
Your lighting + white balance is spot on. Looks good, Adam! ;)
My rule of thumb is that I'll credit someone if I find a recipe/technique that I find particularly novel. Otherwise, _all_ recipes are a result of countless generations of aunties and uncles tinkering with amounts and techniques to achieve their desired effects. One example I take is my own recipe for roast duck. It's a combination of a huge amount of techniques and recipes from all over, and there's so many ways to roast a duck that there's no single right or authentic way, just as long as you don't burn it or undercook it, It'll probably be great. I don't call my recipe my own because it's nothing special, but in a way it kinda is; I just don't care.
Your thought processes are helping me to understand good practice when developing my own content which is totally unrelated to food but nonetheless involves many of the same research-like processes. The internet is both fantastic and frustrating. Far too many content developers are satisfied by simply repeating what they heard from others instead of investigating more deeply to be sure they aren't repeating incorrecthoods or outright falsehoods.
Recipes cannot be stolen. At the end of the day we're all sharing. That's the point of the culinary art. Food was made to bring people together. If you want to "own" a recipe have fun eating by yourself. That must be fun
can art be stolen? is it not the same concept, especially when you’re profiting off of it?
@@chashubokchoy8999 Good comparison but I'd disagree. Technique is what separates 1 chef from another, less so the actual recipe. It's funny though bc I remember watching on the News years ago that a woman was selling KFC chicken or sumthin like that at her own restaurant claiming she cooked it. That 🤦♂️🤦♂️ that's where the line is clear. This is more a moral grey area
I lived in Germany, half a lifetime ago. Ice cream made to look like meals were really, really common. Ice cream would be piped into thin strands to resemble spaghetti, strawberry sauce would replace tomatoes and meatballs and white chocolate sprinkled on top for parmigana cheese. Children loved it. I think there was also a hot dog type of thing. This was in the 1980s. they didn't look as superb as Ms Wong work (she's an artist) but I think she could also have been on a sticky wicket to claim originality
I used to work as an aerialist. when I first started I was lucky enough to have an amazing teacher/performer. he taught me a part of his choreography. I asked him 'aren't you worried I'll just use this in a piece of my own?' His response was "no, not really, you'll never do it quite like me" and of course he was right
P.s I love chef John too. What a voice. What an inspiration
p.p.s as are you. You should be a national treasure
This reminds me of Guga Foods, who copies recipes from various people and then says things like: "I like to put X and Y in my version, because it gives it it's unique taste."
hahaha that guy oh geez.
Oh is that the guy with the clickbaity titles and an obsession with dry aging stuff? Hate that channel.
ok? like if he says he prefers American cheese with his burger, does that mean that he stole the cheese burger recipe? because a lot of what he adds to his food is either very common or actually personal preference, sooo yeah.
@@BiggusNickus Not just dry aging but a massive fascination with Wagyu. They did it so much I unsubscribed and started calling them "Wagyu Everything" since sous vide was clearly no longer their focus as much as getting free/cheap Wagyu to promote on the channel.
@@ehrichweiss To be fair, it's their main channel that does most of the wagyu, not the sous vide channel. But it's true he's not been using sous vide in a lot of that channel's videos nowadays.
I love love that you don't put music behind your videos!! ♥️♥️♥️
For the love of food (and humanity), just share recipes and be happy that others get to try the food.
Interesting and sometimes thorny topic.
When I make one of your recipes I do give you credit and tell people to check out your other recipe videos. I do make sever of your creations on a regular basis. Just tried the New York style pizza dough. May have become my new pizza dough. Probable added more flour than you did but it was very easy to handle and cooked up great in my brick oven.
Making the development references publicly available is good.
Echoing first sources claims effects public opinion in association with the creditability of the repeater with little possibility of retraction.
I'm an advocate of zero intellectual property for creative freedom.
We should put funds where we want to see more development.
It was Shmuzzels that brought me here, and content like this that keeps me here. You're my Chef John.
Intellectual property doesn't have the same economic justification (i.e. scarcity) that physical property does for exclusion and enforcement. If I "take" an idea from you, it doesn't prevent you from having that original idea. While I think this can be an issue, or at least really scummy, when profiteering gets involved, I wholeheartedly support people just sharing information for information's sake. It really doesn't bother me that my grandma didn't write down where she got her cornbread recipe from in the rolodex she uses to keep all her recipes in.
Also, software patents are evil, and if you are actively enforcing one, then I hate you.
if you don't like IP how do you propose to incentivize people to create novel and productive ideas? To use your software example, why should I pay a team of programmers 120k a year to develop something if someone can just take the source code and start putting it out there for pennies on the dollar.
@@michaellhoover94 I said I don't like software patents, not (necessarily) intellectual property. And that's hardly an uncommon opinion among software developers.
And the traditional proprietary software model you talk about, at least in the systems world that I live in, hasn't even been relevant for a few years now. Companies like Red Hat have been profiting from free software for decades. Look at all the MIT-licensed code released by giants like Google, Facebook, and Microsoft, and tell me how they're all losing billions of dollars by not selling their software.
@@MarkStoddard you know trade secret law is also an integral part of Ip law. What does it matter if you have an agreement with the software engineer who designs something if they're effectively judgment-proof after it gets leaked.
@@DJstarrfish cope
@@michaellhoover94 As an artist I can say IP law is unjust for the reasons that Myconic stated. All of it. Ideas are infinitely replicable, do not deprive anything from the person being copied from, and above all else they say that the state will forcibly take your property and give it to the IP-holder if they don't give you express permission.
You can keep people from spreading trade secrets (casual usage of the term, not the IP Law version) via NDAs - contract law - if you prefer. That way people can voluntarily agree to your terms or not, but people not subject to those contracts are not prevented from copying, modifying and remixing.
Very thoughtful video. Even beyond the direct topic and expanding to "What do/can we know?" Very reassuring reminder that other people don't know what's known any more than me.
TH-cam cooking videos, just like on television, are first and foremost entertainment. The vast majority will never actually make the recipe and many people, such as college students, don't even have a kitchen. Many of us watched Chef John's Demi-Glace video and still watched your video, despite knowing it was an identical recipe. The fact that the creator essentially endorses the recipe as "good" is what drives traffic. Stealing recipes is much more meaningful in the context of a restaurant. For example a Portland Burrito shop flaunted their theft of recipes/techniques from other restaurants and was forced to shutdown after an outcry. The quality of food in a traditional restaurant significantly impacts its business. If you want to sell the novel recipe/technique then you should be the person who developed it or have permission from the creator. People deserve credit for their innovations if it is clear they did it.
I very much like the final conclusion you made. I do appreciate those who educate and spread useful information like you. I suppose the best thing for everyone is to do their best citing their sources down one or two levels
Footnotes help avoid these problems. It's good to give credit to your sources when appropriate.
When I saw the thumbnail I mistook adam's pen for a knife and thought he was just approaching to steal my recipes
"Your recipes or your life"
Why I copyright my images and NOT my recipes
Great episode; I love the transparency, as it's only fair! Thanks for doing what you do.
Imagine, if you will, a world where Reverend Sylvester Graham wholely owned the idea of the graham cracker.
By all means attribute where you can and support the innovators when and where possible, but we are better off for being able to innovate when it comes to pure ideas... and that is mostly what a recipe is.
Congrats for 1.8 Million Subscribers Adam.
I'm here before getting my youtube notification.
I love philosophy! This video is so interesting on many levels and i like the fact you do those videos more often now. When i watched your videos for the first time it wasn’t the recipe that made me like and subscribe; It was your way of talking and how you put it together. Imo those educational semi-philosophical videos are your thing and not cooking. The cooking is only one method that you expressed yourself in and “applied your perspective upon” (I couldn’t find a better way to phrase it). So what i mean to say here is keep at it Adam.
haven't watched the video yet, but just from the title, I'm going to say that making a meal is like playing a song. If you're just doing it in your own home, with your own tools, or for friends and family, etc, then fine. But if you start making money because of a recipe/song someone else gave you, morally you should at least cut them in. But the laws are going to be different wherever you go. So, since you qualify 'ethically' in your title, I would say the person/entity who actually write the recipes should get some form of credit or compensation. Just my opinion, I could be wrong! Now to watch the video! LOL! Cheers!
I'm reminded of ideas explored in Kirby Ferguson's "Everything is a Remix" series: creativity is far more derivative and borrowed than we think it is ... and that's fine. That's how culture works. To pinpoint when a novel idea came along is kind of a fool's errand.
It is kinda funny to me how I watch a ton of foodtubers, and 90% of their recipes are adaptations from ATK or Kenji
As a computer scientist I immediately started thinking about the intellectual property of algorithms, which is essentially the exact same thing. After all algorithms are essentially recipes for computational results, and cooking recipes are essentially algorithms for creating food. Soon I found that everything in this video can be applied to computer science and software engineering as well, including the ethical and research part. I always enjoy when finding connection between seemingly unrelated topics. Just thought this was a fun observation
Even if every human lived in a vacuum from every other human, with the sheer number of people cooking from the same limited ingredients of the world, millions of people would eventually stumble across the same recipes.
Something about monkeys locked in somewhere with typewriters and all…
I find there is more variety with cooking recipes than music.
@@shellyt556 well by nature of humans, 100% of humans will deal with recipes because 100% of humans need to eat to survive, but no human needs music to survive. If even 1% of humans needed music to survive, you could bet there would be more types of music than we have, but would never reach the diversity of recipes unless 100% of humans also needed music to live.
My children were conceived to the soothing background noise that is chef John. No regrets.