Fremer still doesn’t understand Esposito’s point on the ERC records- being that a $500 record should not have the defects that a $20 GZ Pressing has. Analogue Productions sells these extremely high quality records for $40-100, and I’ve never gotten quality defects from them. Never had a seam split, warp. As a matter of fact, their covers are some of the highest quality jackets I’ve ever seen, and definitely the highest quality I own. Their records sound incredible, and they charge under $100 for them. Mike E. got seam splits and a bubble on his first try with ERC, and that was $500. How is that fair to charge 7x the amount but have more defects than an Analogue Productions or Mobile Fidelity release?
Well your extremely lucky or haven’t bought many records….lol. I’ve been collecting records since the late 70s into the 80s then stopped. My 2nd go around was in the late 90s, I have had quite a large collection, I’ve bought quite many audiophile records from Classic Records, Analog productions and even records RTI pressed that there were defective; warped, off centre, and damaged covers. My funniest one was from Blue Note, Charles Lloyd: 8 Kindred Spirits, 3LP set with the last LP, last side not pressed and was just rough vinyl!
I have 6 AP albums purchased new and 2 have seam splits. One was obvious when I received it, the other was tiny but is slowly coming further apart with time. In comparison, I have about 20 OJCs and not a split in the bunch. Yes, most of my AP albums sound great (the 45s are particularly stellar), but my AP copy of *Chet* has a level of surface noise that is no better than the Blue Note Classic series albums that are available for about $20. Records are subject to imperfections and mistakes in handling when shipped, and I think Fremer's viewpoint is correct and backed by Chad. Anyway, ERC will replace a flawed record with a proper copy if you have issues, so it really doesn't matter. IMO, the bottom line with regards to the main topic of discussion is these lacquers and ERC releases are for the wealthy or extreme collectors that have everything else and want something different. I'm glad they exist, but they are for the Chateau Lafite drinkers or McLaren drivers more than they are for the rest of us.
@@BreakfastInEurope nothing "lasts" the issue was and still is how long they last. As far as the arguments go Fremer brought real evidence to the debate. Mike E brought anecdotal evidence. Mike E's biggest problem in this debate IMO were his initial claims which were absurd. "two plays and then they implode" "Life span of a cassette tape from Mission Impossible" etc etc. And it's not like ANYONE has claimed lacquer is a robust medium. The company selling them is very transparent about their wear. IMO it's one thing to express an opinion that this is not a good product. It's another to misrepresent the facts about their fragility and life span. I have no interest in taking sides other then taking the side of accurate factual information.
Great you had that experience. I recently exchanged a UHQR KoB because it was very noisy, and there's video of another person who has one that is wildly off-center. The first is hard to detect in QC, even at $100/copy; the second not so much; for that price someone should be able to put a stack on a spindle and have a tool flag eccentric ones.
Between Analog Planet, Acoustic Sounds, and the In Groove, 7,000 people watched this in the first 3 hrs. during and since this discussion occurred. Now, that says something. Thank you, Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem. Great talk, great points, and great passion. The fact that so many people were interested in hearing you guys talk about everything vinyl is an excellent sign that vinyl is here to stay.
I agree with Mike Esposito that lacquers are not a viable long term solution for owning and playing music - I own several dozen lacquers, some dating to the 70's, and aging effects are clearly evident on the older ones. To the point that I would not drop my expensive stylus on many of them at this point. If you want a trophy to hang on a wall, and are willing to pay the money to acquire a lacquer, got for it. If you want a record you can play hundreds of times over the rest of your life, buy a vinyl record. Second, I believe that Mr Fremer should NOT be advocating for or championing a particular manufacturer (ERC in this case) if he is beholden to them in any way. If you accept tens of thousands of dollars of free merchandise from someone, you have a conflict of interest that is likely to color your judgement, irrespective of whether you believe that to be true or not. Here's an easy way to get rid of the conflict of interest so you are free to speak your mind with a clear conscience, and be considered credible: Return the records to the manufacturer once you have reviewed them, or Give the records away to your channel subscribers, or Destroy them if the first two options are not possible. Accepting free merchandise from a manufacturer, and then stepping up to publicly attack someone with valid criticisms of said manufacturer's products is unprofessional at best.
This is by far the most entertaining and educating exchange on anything related to vinyl I have seen in years. Appreciate and respect the passion all three of you brought to the table.
First I no longer consider myself an "audiophile" but just a musicphile. I have two comments. I managed a mid to high end audio store in the late 70's to early 90's and the store and myself received a lot of free merchandise over the years. Second, I still have over 5000 albums in my collection including many half-speed, 150, 180, 200 and D2D. Personally I would never pay $500.00 for a lacquer and if I did I sure would not expect any and I mean any defects in a limited 300 release. For that matter I would not expect any defects in a $35.00 album.
VideoArchiveGuy Chad has raised the price to $40.00 for single albums and $60.00 for double albums. I might have been very lucky but I first started buying Sheffield Lab, Mobile Fidelity, Nautilus, SuperDiscs and all the fabulous Japanese OBI'S in the 80's I never got a bad pressing. Some of those OBI'S were $7.99.
my .02 as a semi-serious collector, low budget audiophile, and small record store owner... Mike is right in his criticism of lacquers as a long-term media solution. Yes, Michael might have some that have been played many times that he swears still sound good, and maybe they do, but a huge majority of buyers, collectors, and players have reported substantial degradation in sound quality, especially in the higher frequencies after as few as 5-10 plays. Maybe Mike was a bit harsh in his criticism of Michael directly, but no matter how differential Michael claims to be, there's no way he would find ANY defects acceptable in a $575 record if he was paying his actually hard earned money for said record. Any company that sells just 300 a month of ANYTHING, should have a strict, no defects QC policy, period. I don't buy or sell $500+ records, so maybe I shouldn't even care or comment, but some things just feel like common sense, regardless.
Yes, These two great analog audiophiles are just looking at this from very different perspectives. This happens all the time in written discussions. Nothing like face to face conversations. We are passionate, yet more alike than different in the Audio World.
Since the begining of recorded music it seemed the goal was two fold: 1.create a format that sounds like the real thing and 2. create a format that allows more continuous listening time...with cds it seemed we had moved forward towards that goal quite a bit. I assumed that 35 years later we would have a format that gave us unlimited music with the fidelity of vinyl at a reasonable price.but we haven't.. The record industry now seems to have moved away from getting as many records to as many people as possible, and focused more on a Beanie Babies marketing system. Creating collectors markets just by sheer supply manipulating. Sad.
Mike Esposito is right on this point (among others): If you are going to pay $575 for an extremely limited edition record, don't you think the manufacturer should pay a couple of people to visually check every record that comes out of the machine, for flaws such as bubbles? For $15/hr I'd pay 2 guys: one to look at it first, and another to double check it, before it goes into the sleeve. If this is a pressed album (as opposed to a lacquer cut in a lathe), I'd also play one for off center and warping issues. I own a lot of albums pressed in the 1970s and 1980s and almost zero have off center pressing problems, as compared to about 40% of what has been coming out for the past 12-15 years from American factories.
Are all lacquers the same? I ask because elsewhere in his Analog Corner #60 Mr. Fremer says, "Of course, a lacquer is only good for a small number of plays before it wears out. More troubling is lacquer's extreme flammability-great for a disco, where everyone's smokin' and tokin'." Is this referring to the same thing as here?
Only the TH-cam channels of both Mikes have been able to get sit down for hour-plus discussions on music and records .. thank you both for all you done .. 👍
As usual, Chat promoting sh$t load of his products every chance he gets. My opinion on lacquers is this: I really don’t give a sh$t. Just press quality records at reasonable price. That’s where I’m at.
That was great. Clearly y'all are good guys. I almost feel bad for some of the comments I've made recently about Mike from Phoenix. Yeah, I do feel bad. Love the passion. I can't knock any of you guys. Chad is cool as hell, but we all knew that. GREAT STUFF GUYS! Thanks.
Glad to see this! Often online disagreements are misinterpreted. Michael has an unusual sense of humor that sometimes does not translate well online. Personally, I love his offbeat style. I hope to see collaborations with these two pillars in the Analog World!
I have to say I think that is a part of it yeah. People don’t quite get his dry sense of humor because he can also switch on a very obvious laughable sense of humor. Lol both guys are right and both guys were wrong at points here. But I truly feel in groove has an axe to grind with someone who he views as an “elite” simply because Fremer has been in the business for so long.
Mike bought a record from me and was very nice in our conversations. I’ve also bought several records from Mike and he was a very nice guy when I went to his store, and he has one of the top record stores in the country. Thank you both for continuing to spread the love of all analogue mediums with a focus on quality mastering! It would be more productive to the community for less contentious and more good-humored discussions.
Great debate. Both individuals are very passionate about records, but Mike E. came way on top, not even close. Brought up his points in a better manner (cool and collected). Mike F. on the other hand looked and felt frantic.
I didn't question his ethics or integrity. He repeatedly questioned mine. He got frantic too at times but you just like him better. I'm fine with that and obviously you're fine when he would not watch the link I provided proving that after 100 plays the lacquer has not lost anything. He faults the organization that posted it for being HONEST. That's just absurd....
@@AnalogPlanet My dude. you started the whole exchange with a 12 yo "we know why you dont like ERC. You dont know what youre talking about Nyah nyah nyah nyah". THATS all that anyone needs to know about the whole exchange. THATs who you are. And the the fact that he blew your 50 years of experience out of the water IN HIS OPENING response -- with quotes from nearly everyone who actually knows about laquers -- is almost besides the point. And please Michael, your WHOLE THING is being frantic.
I’m still listening/watching. Regarding ERC. If you’re gonna sell records for $500 there should be no defects of any kind whatsoever. Pressing or packaging. Another thing that caught my attention was Michael talked about there being an A/B listening session with an ERC pressing and another (sorry forget which one) and he mentioned some preferred one and others the other. The ERC should have been unanimous
I think these meetings should be a "thing" and next time y'all should include Ken Micallef and German Michael! Only good things could come from these conversations. Everyone's passion and love for the topic keeps things civil and educational. Civil conversation in 2021 and acceptance of other's views is certainly a RARE thing. Best to all of you guys.
I am convinced that you could blindfold certain individuals for a lacquer & vinyl blind test and they'd argue while listening, pointing out audio imperfections. Then they'd remove their blindfold to find out that there never was any record on the TT, it was Coltrane playing live all along. Then, 1 or 2 of them would start arguing with John that he sounds better on lacquer or vinyl.
I always thought that Chad Kassem is a pretty amazing human being, on top of his professionalism, but this just proves it undeniably. What a great result of a great idea -- very enjoyable video!
Items are actually "loaned" for review ...nod, nod wink, wink. And I should add professional recognition among peers is quite intoxicating...that "lunch" is much more than a "lunch"...for anyone, not just Mikey...and this is the way every industry works. Biased...absolutely...it is what it is...hard not to be...but you are right Mike...ERC should be meticulous! The best stuff today on vinyl considering everything is Chad's standard LP reissues and Blue Note Tone Poets..super simple based on sound and outstanding pressing quality. Also Chad ships in bombproof packaging...never ever got a spit seam from his company. Just sayin'!
I'm holding off for the format that has been taken to space by Elon. I want my copy of Dark Side of the Moon to be from the side of the moon with all the alien hotels. Fremer has become the ultimate insider when it comes to records and the record business. He gets trips to Europe paid for. For the purpose of talking about analog recordings. Sometimes during these expensive trips he pulls out high quality, rare pieces of physical media and plays them. This is his past and future - hopefully. He is a very fortunate person and he knows it. He effing earned every bit of it through his desire to live a life sharing music. I love his content and want to thank him for showing us common folk the men behind the curtains. This current scuffle over a new expensive format is the same as the arguments over cables. The rich man gets the best while us common folk, through arrogance are forced to believe our gear is just as good or that the high end stuff is not worth it. Our own mind wants to tell each of us we are the best at something, and when a rich guy walks up and gets better stuff we feel slighted somehow.
enjoyed the discussion, shout out to my local boy Mike at In Groove who gets all my business, hope that Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem stay close pals
Interesting debate. I have to say that I have watched both of your shows. I came prepared to agree with AP. However, IG had some powerful points. $500 per a record is so far outside the mainstream that it is turning people off records. The vinyl revival will kill itself with this type of greed.
No one is forcing anyone to buy the ERC records, all of which immediately sell out because people like them. There are many other alternatives. I just don't see it as "greedy". It's a hand made product made with great care and it serves a specific audience especially the classical collectors who crave the rich tube sound of records that in their original pressings cost thousands of dollars. Here they can get them for $500 instead. Much less costly.
I don't think mainstream listeners are going to encounter these super-premium releases that often. They're something you order from a specialist vendor or directly from the label, and unlikely to be available through traditional retail channels
@@AnalogPlanet The Classic Records Everest reissues have a wonderful tube sound too and are dead quiet. Why did I get many of them for under 30 Euro in NM condition if 500 dollars is considered cheap? Are collectors idiots? Of course not, I am the idiot because those Classic Records reissues have pretty much no resale value and the ERC reissues triple in value immediately. But I'm not into this hobby to make money but to enjoy great music no matter what people think a record is worth. I hate that the vinyl boom makes vinyl collecting a rich man's sports. It becomes more and more exclusive like the wine world a couple of decades ago turning off the real enthusiasts. I have no problem with ERC in particular but with the trend of exclusivity. Maybe in 10 years from now we won't even see AAA releases from dead artists anymore for under 100 dollars because record companies can't press more but figured out they could charge more.
@@AnalogPlanet "Its a hand made product made with great care" until it comes to quality control. Youre telling me that at no point does it occur to Hutchinson to say "hey Ted, this guy from Wisconsin just paid $500 for this. Wanna make sure it doesnt have a seam split?". THATS "great care".
Seam splits in cover are absolutely the fault of the record label and how they deliver packaging to protect for that, especially if you are spending hundreds.
Not quite related, but those 30 ips tapes- the frequency response of machines at that speed are generally rated as 40 hz upwards, so people often drop to 15 ips or lower to capture the bass frequencies. I'm pretty sure that countless albums have been recorded at 30 ips with frequencies lower than 40hz. Any chance of a test?
Both of these guys are great and i love their channels. I just hope the folks that pay $500 for these laquers make a 192/24 digital recording on the first play, preferably using a Nagra…
I think there was hyperbole on both sides. They are both firey characters that are passionate about vinyl and also come from different perspectives. One a reviewer and one a seller. One problem, though, is when you call out someone for exaggeration yet are guilty for the same "crime", you dont really have a leg to stand on to blow up at someone. Also, calling them an angry person in their critique video while your yelling in a subsequent video is also kind of a case of a pot calling the kettle black now isnt it? Throw around Mr In Groove digs and such and youre proooobably going to get a bit back. It smacks of "Im a professional journalist and you..youre just...one of those lowly record dealers that make "youtube videos" Thus the statements about free records and bias. Tit for tat. Im not one of those who judge Mike F and his motivation for reviews. I dont know his heart and dont judge his integrity based upon "freebies". I have my issues with his reviews many times but its not based upon "He is a biased journalist because he got free records". Maybe he is, maye he isnt. He says he aint. Ill leave it at that and give him the respect that he is being honest. But as far as disrespect? Well, get disrespectful and call people stupid or look down on them, youre probably not going to get much respect back. As far as "proof", in the video Chad, the lacquer guy and the turntable guy (sorry cant recall the last two fellas names) all three agreed that lacquers are not exactly ideal and in fact degrade and/or have transformation of the groove shape over time and with plays. In other words..not good. The guy who does lacquers seems to lean more not on the lacquer being "shaved off" or whatever by the needle as much as time being a factor in which chemical changed take place. Either way, they back up the statement and longstanding understanding by other industry pros that lacquer is simply an inferior and unstable medium. Especially compared to your standard vinyl lp. To me it boils down to this: The big elephant in the room isnt all the flexing and hyperbole or yelling ir name calling. It isnt about something turning to dust or I have played this many times and its still fine. Its the fact we do not know for certain the stability of these expensive lacquers and when compared to the tried and true vinyl lp, its not exactly the smartest risk. Its a load full of money to spend on a relativly risky medium. And hyperbole aside, I got that is what Mike E was saying in his initial video. There are high percentage risks and lower. Id say lacquers fall in the later category. So Im not sure how Mike F really proved anything. No one in the video agreed with him concerning longevity, durability or practicality of lacquers as a medium to have music recorded. Chad simply conceded that "life is a risk" lol Diplomatic to say the least. I agree though that an independent study would be interesting. Though it still would not tell us what these lacquer reissues will be like in 10-20 years or even less. But yeah, somebody have a spectral analysis machine handy? 😁 In the end if someone wants to purchase a $1,000,000 edison cylinder because they think its the bees knees.. I dont care. But I also think that someone has the right to critique that choice with logic thats been proven and backed up by professionals. And someone has the right to be pissed and express it to his customers and viewers if they see by their experience a company isnt holding high enough standards for the price they pay. Long live vinyl records! Right on🤙🏻
16:55. Fremer months ago talking about MOFI records that didn’t sound good and why. So Espo and his fans going on now about Fremer being offside on his interview with MOFI makes no sense
I certainly know more now than before this video, the catfight worked to our advantage, my take is that the guys selling the lacquers should mention the difference with vinyl.
Hearing that the Kind of Blue 33.33 UHQR is nearly "sold out", im hoping that the 45 UHQR isnt too far behind. I skipped the 33.33 in favour of the 45 release however you didnt mention it in the vid.......AP are still looking to release the KOB 45 UHQR right?
The 33 UHQR KOB promised the world but delivered short for many customers. Poor pressings and ingrained noise in abundance depending on which pressing run each copy fell in to. Luckily I got a good pressing. Hopefully, the 45 will be much improved.
@@scottwheeler2679 well they said there were 500 left...anyway that wasn't my point. They didn't mention the 45 UHQR KOB so was wondering if it's still going to be released
@@TheChromeTree No worries. Beware of artificial scarcity. I haven't heard one way or the other but if I were a betting person I would bet the 45rpm won't come out until they sell out or nearly sell out the 33. Which I don't think will be anytime soon. I know everyone loves Chad and I think he has been a real power house in the audiophile world. But as a businessman he has done a few things over the years that I consider kind of unethical. Watch for it. Price increase on the 33 KOBs due to "low stock" then boom, the 45 rpm at a new established higher price.
@@scottwheeler2679 I'm not too worried as to when, just hope they do. I bypassed the 33 in favour of the 45. Will be a pissed if they decide not to release it on 45
I purchased a new vinyl record last week.Took it out of its jacket to clean it and both were scratched.i went back to the store and the manager opened x12 double lps to get X2 unscratched records.oh and it was £29.99
I wish i had 50 to 100 thousand on free records. And conflict of interest, everyone has that. Not only in this business. By the way: sound is something different from used material. But i agree that you expect a perfect record if you buy one for 500$ . If you dont get this, refund or ask for another one. That should be the law.
I'd like to see the reviews of the MOFI's because I bought that Simon and Garfunkel assuming it would be better than my original. The most I ever paid for a record was $200 and that was for a RCA shaded dog Witches Brew. Which I bought because a friend needed money.
I agree to Mike. Man if your producing limited edition with a high price tag, should be perfect, should be quality controlled. doenst matter if got change or not the point is we paying to get this thing in perfect condition. Practice makes perfect but nobodies perfect, so why practice? - source unknown.
I just love you all my main bitch about records is people buying all kinds of main stream records and big sellers back in the day. It’s people like disccogs and some other company’s. Which is now driving records thru the roof. Now people like me who are retired living on a Budjet now cannot afford.. I feel these companies there are alot of people want too get into vinyl but simply can not afford too get into the gig.. is so unfair that theynjack the -prices through roof and drive us out of the market. Please companies give us a chance too enjoy our hobby I know your trying too build your company’s and make a living but we want too be able too enjoy our hobby too. What a interesting show that was, I love you all!!!
Been waiting for that Quiet Kenny repress a while now. Get it done, Chad!! As for the lacquer debate, the Korf Blog is a very interesting read. It's very carefully done and honestly sheds more light on longevity than anecdotal evidence. I don't understand Mike Esposito's reluctance to read or consider duplicating their results except for the fact that it would show he's incorrect. Sounded like Mike Fremer even would have gone in on getting a third party unaffiliated with Supersense to verify the results. Between that and the video plays of the two older lacquers, I'm not sure what more anyone could ask of Michael Fremer to prove he is correct.
Interesting discussion on all sides. I don't appreciate Michael F swatting away Mike's point by saying "that's anecdotal evidence," when Michael F was the one saying "I've listened to this one lacquer"... to "make" his point. Having said that... The amount of knowledge in this room is mind-blowing. Frankly, after listening to this discussion, I'm regretting my choice to get Coltrane's "Love Supreme" on K-Tel Records. Carry on, gents!!
I mean Fremer literally started the whole thing by providing actual graphs. Which are not anecdotal evidence… He even said to Mike “if you don’t believe the graphs there’s nothing I can do about that but here they are”
I wouldn't care if my Camry was delivered with some light scratches on the hood, but I sure as hell would say something if it were a Porsche. It's also such a pain in the ass to exchange a record and part of the $500 should be the peace of mind knowing that you won't be dealing with any of that bullshit. Also $500 is a ridiculous pricing for a record and normalizing that is part of the problem - unless we're talking about a vintage record which has appreciated in value because of rarity
The ultimate message should be that each buyer is free to waste his or her money as he or she sees fit, and no one has any business telling that buyer what to do.
Relating to the comments about the poor sounding "Bridge Over Troubled Water" One Step, do the original multi track tapes exist? If so, couldn't they just make a new remixed master tape, as Giles Martin has been doing with the Beatles catalogue? And perhaps do the same for the first Doors album?
@@BubblesBubbles well, I don't know Paul's thoughts, but would guess he wouldn't mind his music to be heard at it's best, by someone who has an interest in that sort of thing.
An Esposito vs Fremer battle - In my opinion, Esposito had the better argument. I agree if they want to charge such insane prices, the records should be flawless. Mistakes happen in mass production, but on very expensive limited high-end runs, nothing inferior should make it out the door.
As an old school dj, its clear that vinyl sound better! cd's have ruin the dj competence...i have listen very old vinyl more than 60 years and they are still good! With cd aluminium get oxidation and don't work after 20 years...thats a fact! cd and numerisation have killed the work of real dj's...the price of vinyl must stay reasonable...I was collecting rare vinyl when everybody go to cd and download and it was cheep, not anymore... for mixing nothing can compare with the touch of vinyl...Analogue for ever! Also i think mastering of vinyl is not as good as it was in the past...So mixing right is very important...Great respect for the people that keep the vinyl alive! Acetate degrade pretty fast but still collectible and special when you play it, also picture disk and colored vinyl are nice but don't last in time as good vinyl! Great respect for Michael Fremer great passion and thanks for the reviews and your honesty!
Why is Esposito making his case as if he’s sticking up for the “average” consumer? What “average” consumer is spending $500 on a single record? That is not an average vinyl enthusiast nor an average customer in his store. If those guys with the money want to buy these records so what? Let the guys with the money spend it how they want. If it’s defective they can Send it back and get a replacement. Also, how is the guy who is “moderating” this a direct competitor to ERC and admits he’s never listened to one of their records……wtf?
This is an honest question. I’m not trying to be harsh but Fremer is 75 and won’t live forever and can’t take them all with him. What’s his plan for the thousands of records he owns. Let’s hope Scrooge McDuck of vinyl Mike Esposito doesn’t buy them. He always charges an arm and a leg because his records and only his are always the most “cherry.”
(I know this is old) If there are lacquers that are degraded, then surely, just show these old things how they are damaged and people can see the issue.
Very good comment. I’m sure they exist, but let’s see them and see how old and how many plays. Fremer produced his and even played them for us. They sound great. I believe it’s like he said. Take care of them. You may have to take extra steps that you wouldn’t with regular vinyl. And also like he said, if you don’t want them don’t buy them. In Groove is trying to white knight for the “average” consumer. Average consumers aren’t buying $500 records. Period. Go pick on the thousands of $30 records with defects that average consumers ARE buying.
One time at an audio show Fremer came into one of the rooms and played one of his prized records with reported excellent sound quality. The people who set up the system in that room treated him like a god. I heard his record and thought Fremer lost his hearing. Guys, I don’t trust this guy with anything he reviews.
I agree with Mike E., for 575 I shouldn't be able to detect any flaws. Whether or not the record is actually "perfect" in some Platonic sense, that's a different point and I don't think Mike E. is arguing that
It's about them at this point. 3 days ago Michael Fremer wrote his "final comment" They can't let it go. At this point the discussion has extended for several hours. It's narcissistic supply for the both of them. Cluster B rock'em sock'em.
At end of the day I do think this has been able to get the education out there which was I believe was In Groove Mikes’s intention from the start…. 2022 sounds like it will be a great year…
Cool debate guys, I love all these guys but man, who buy those 500$ records? The most money I can put on a record is 100-120$ max. And at that price I expect perfection. On that I’m with Mike, if my 500$ record is not perfect when I received it I would go completely crazy!!!! But most people don’t put that kind of money on a record. The debate is interesting but it really talk to a really small amount of people. Thanks guys 😁
Right? Oh, and Michael's response is well, they'll take it back and make it right. Ok, fine, but why defend the company's practice of letting shit like that out of the factory in the first place? They make and ship just 300 records a month!
I agree. I'd pay over $100 for something out of print that I absolutely love. I'm not the type to collect multiple pressings of something unless I'm buying an upgrade. As for new records, I just bought Aaron Neville's Warm Your Heart for $60 (expensive for me for a record, though it is a double) from Acoustic Sounds and wow- that is one of the best sounding records in my collection and I've got some great sounding stuff.
After all is said and done, Mike E said some slightly hyperbolic shit about lacquer in a casual setting not trying to be scientific and Fremer came at him multiple times and was unable to prove anything besides that he sort of looks down on Mike E and that he hates being wrong. I don't care that he likes ERC. I think he's wrong on both the count that their business model is terrible and that lacquer seems to be provably pretty bad. I never would have known he was so annoying on this subject if he hadn't brought the fight to Mike E several times. And hey I don't really even know who Mike E is. I found this stupid beef through Fremer's channel. Very funny that since this happened Mike E received and unboxed really bad ERC. I think the point that is lost in forgetting that this all started because Fremer decided to turn this into a Thing is how much less negative ERC/laquer content there would probably be from Mike's end if Fremer hadn't forced him to defend himself. He would have talked shit on them once or twice and moved on.
I had to stop watching because I started getting frustrated but here's my view: I think most all media degrades over time. I would never buy a record for $500. If I did, I wouldn't play it 100 times ever.... but if someone does, it's thier business. In the audiophile biz, there's alot of things I would never buy, but if it makes someone happy and they can afford it who cares.
@@ScottTice1971 Absolutely! But no one is arguing that. From what I can tell is one person is implying that nothing should ever leave with any defects (because of the price), and the other person thinks that sometimes mistakes are made. Either way, you should be able to send it back and replace it. I mean I sort of demand all records be defect free, but it's not always the case.
@@bhob666 The point Mike is trying to make is that for $500, and only 300 being made, the lacquer should be perfect (barring any shipping damage). If there are scratches or bubbles in the lacquer that probably did NOT happen during shipping and should never have left the factory. It's a waste of time for both the seller and the buyer... as well as bad PR for the company obviously. These pressings should be inspected thoroughly BEFORE going out the door. If Mike has received multiple copies with issues then there is a QC problem that needs to be addressed.
@@ScottTice1971 I know the point he was trying to make, but people aren't perfect and they make mistakes. If he feels the quality control isn't good, then don't sell or recommend it. If someone else wants to buy it anyways, they should be able to.
Fremer comes off as big bully in this… he can’t take any constructive criticism or can’t see the validation of someone else’s point. Just typical of older record collectors , they come off as very condescending with this know it all attitude .. and they look down on people that don’t know as much as them.. no longer a Fremer fan ..
Fremer still doesn’t understand Esposito’s point on the ERC records- being that a $500 record should not have the defects that a $20 GZ Pressing has. Analogue Productions sells these extremely high quality records for $40-100, and I’ve never gotten quality defects from them. Never had a seam split, warp. As a matter of fact, their covers are some of the highest quality jackets I’ve ever seen, and definitely the highest quality I own. Their records sound incredible, and they charge under $100 for them. Mike E. got seam splits and a bubble on his first try with ERC, and that was $500. How is that fair to charge 7x the amount but have more defects than an Analogue Productions or Mobile Fidelity release?
Well your extremely lucky or haven’t bought many records….lol. I’ve been collecting records since the late 70s into the 80s then stopped. My 2nd go around was in the late 90s, I have had quite a large collection, I’ve bought quite many audiophile records from Classic Records, Analog productions and even records RTI pressed that there were defective; warped, off centre, and damaged covers. My funniest one was from Blue Note, Charles Lloyd: 8 Kindred Spirits, 3LP set with the last LP, last side not pressed and was just rough vinyl!
The crux of his argument in his original video though was that lacquers don't last...
I have 6 AP albums purchased new and 2 have seam splits. One was obvious when I received it, the other was tiny but is slowly coming further apart with time. In comparison, I have about 20 OJCs and not a split in the bunch. Yes, most of my AP albums sound great (the 45s are particularly stellar), but my AP copy of *Chet* has a level of surface noise that is no better than the Blue Note Classic series albums that are available for about $20. Records are subject to imperfections and mistakes in handling when shipped, and I think Fremer's viewpoint is correct and backed by Chad. Anyway, ERC will replace a flawed record with a proper copy if you have issues, so it really doesn't matter.
IMO, the bottom line with regards to the main topic of discussion is these lacquers and ERC releases are for the wealthy or extreme collectors that have everything else and want something different. I'm glad they exist, but they are for the Chateau Lafite drinkers or McLaren drivers more than they are for the rest of us.
@@BreakfastInEurope nothing "lasts" the issue was and still is how long they last. As far as the arguments go Fremer brought real evidence to the debate. Mike E brought anecdotal evidence. Mike E's biggest problem in this debate IMO were his initial claims which were absurd. "two plays and then they implode" "Life span of a cassette tape from Mission Impossible" etc etc. And it's not like ANYONE has claimed lacquer is a robust medium. The company selling them is very transparent about their wear. IMO it's one thing to express an opinion that this is not a good product. It's another to misrepresent the facts about their fragility and life span. I have no interest in taking sides other then taking the side of accurate factual information.
Great you had that experience.
I recently exchanged a UHQR KoB because it was very noisy, and there's video of another person who has one that is wildly off-center.
The first is hard to detect in QC, even at $100/copy; the second not so much; for that price someone should be able to put a stack on a spindle and have a tool flag eccentric ones.
Between Analog Planet, Acoustic Sounds, and the In Groove, 7,000 people watched this in the first 3 hrs. during and since this discussion occurred. Now, that says something.
Thank you, Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem. Great talk, great points, and great passion. The fact that so many people were interested in hearing you guys talk about everything vinyl is an excellent sign that vinyl is here to stay.
I agree with Mike Esposito that lacquers are not a viable long term solution for owning and playing music - I own several dozen lacquers, some dating to the 70's, and aging effects are clearly evident on the older ones. To the point that I would not drop my expensive stylus on many of them at this point. If you want a trophy to hang on a wall, and are willing to pay the money to acquire a lacquer, got for it. If you want a record you can play hundreds of times over the rest of your life, buy a vinyl record.
Second, I believe that Mr Fremer should NOT be advocating for or championing a particular manufacturer (ERC in this case) if he is beholden to them in any way. If you accept tens of thousands of dollars of free merchandise from someone, you have a conflict of interest that is likely to color your judgement, irrespective of whether you believe that to be true or not. Here's an easy way to get rid of the conflict of interest so you are free to speak your mind with a clear conscience, and be considered credible:
Return the records to the manufacturer once you have reviewed them, or
Give the records away to your channel subscribers, or
Destroy them if the first two options are not possible.
Accepting free merchandise from a manufacturer, and then stepping up to publicly attack someone with valid criticisms of said manufacturer's products is unprofessional at best.
agreed!
This is by far the most entertaining and educating exchange on anything related to vinyl I have seen in years. Appreciate and respect the passion all three of you brought to the table.
Mike Esposito, man. Integrity personified. Dude will never steer you wrong.
I’ve met Mike at his store, and is a very nice man. He’s very knowledgeable and was able to answer several questions that I asked him.
My appreciation for Mike E. has really grown after watching this.
First I no longer consider myself an "audiophile" but just a musicphile. I have two comments. I managed a mid to high end audio store in the late 70's to early 90's and the store and myself received a lot of free merchandise over the years. Second, I still have over 5000 albums in my collection including many half-speed, 150, 180, 200 and D2D. Personally I would never pay $500.00 for a lacquer and if I did I sure would not expect any and I mean any defects in a limited 300 release. For that matter I would not expect any defects in a $35.00 album.
Amen
That's insane, at least for the album.
QC would raise the price of the $35 album over $35 just to have someone check them.
VideoArchiveGuy Chad has raised the price to $40.00 for single albums and $60.00 for double albums. I might have been very lucky but I first started buying Sheffield Lab, Mobile Fidelity, Nautilus, SuperDiscs and all the fabulous Japanese OBI'S in the 80's I never got a bad pressing. Some of those OBI'S were $7.99.
my .02 as a semi-serious collector, low budget audiophile, and small record store owner...
Mike is right in his criticism of lacquers as a long-term media solution. Yes, Michael might have some that have been played many times that he swears still sound good, and maybe they do, but a huge majority of buyers, collectors, and players have reported substantial degradation in sound quality, especially in the higher frequencies after as few as 5-10 plays. Maybe Mike was a bit harsh in his criticism of Michael directly, but no matter how differential Michael claims to be, there's no way he would find ANY defects acceptable in a $575 record if he was paying his actually hard earned money for said record. Any company that sells just 300 a month of ANYTHING, should have a strict, no defects QC policy, period.
I don't buy or sell $500+ records, so maybe I shouldn't even care or comment, but some things just feel like common sense, regardless.
Yes, These two great analog audiophiles are just looking at this from very different perspectives. This happens all the time in written discussions. Nothing like face to face conversations. We are passionate, yet more alike than different in the Audio World.
Since the begining of recorded music it seemed the goal was two fold: 1.create a format that sounds like the real thing and 2. create a format that allows more continuous listening time...with cds it seemed we had moved forward towards that goal quite a bit. I assumed that 35 years later we would have a format that gave us unlimited music with the fidelity of vinyl at a reasonable price.but we haven't.. The record industry now seems to have moved away from getting as many records to as many people as possible, and focused more on a Beanie Babies marketing system. Creating collectors markets just by sheer supply manipulating. Sad.
This is a very intelligent post and should be pinned at the top of the comments ✌🏻
Just when you thought record collecting couldn't get any nerdier. OMG!
Mike Esposito is right on this point (among others): If you are going to pay $575 for an extremely limited edition record, don't you think the manufacturer should pay a couple of people to visually check every record that comes out of the machine, for flaws such as bubbles? For $15/hr I'd pay 2 guys: one to look at it first, and another to double check it, before it goes into the sleeve. If this is a pressed album (as opposed to a lacquer cut in a lathe), I'd also play one for off center and warping issues. I own a lot of albums pressed in the 1970s and 1980s and almost zero have off center pressing problems, as compared to about 40% of what has been coming out for the past 12-15 years from American factories.
correct
Are all lacquers the same? I ask because elsewhere in his Analog Corner #60 Mr. Fremer says, "Of course, a lacquer is only good for a small number of plays before it wears out. More troubling is lacquer's extreme flammability-great for a disco, where everyone's smokin' and tokin'." Is this referring to the same thing as here?
Only the TH-cam channels of both Mikes have been able to get sit down for hour-plus discussions on music and records .. thank you both for all you done .. 👍
As usual, Chat promoting sh$t load of his products every chance he gets.
My opinion on lacquers is this: I really don’t give a sh$t. Just press quality records at reasonable price. That’s where I’m at.
That was great. Clearly y'all are good guys. I almost feel bad for some of the comments I've made recently about Mike from Phoenix. Yeah, I do feel bad. Love the passion. I can't knock any of you guys. Chad is cool as hell, but we all knew that. GREAT STUFF GUYS! Thanks.
Mike Esposito crushed it.....I feel he truly has the best interest of those he serves
I watched the whole debate and I concluded that the whole thing was a storm in a teacup or like we say in french " Une tempête dans un verre d'eau ".
In this video Fremer (one of my heroes) sounds so fragjle.. sad.. way to go Mike Esposito!
Glad to see this! Often online disagreements are misinterpreted. Michael has an unusual sense of humor that sometimes does not translate well online. Personally, I love his offbeat style. I hope to see collaborations with these two pillars in the Analog World!
I have to say I think that is a part of it yeah. People don’t quite get his dry sense of humor because he can also switch on a very obvious laughable sense of humor. Lol both guys are right and both guys were wrong at points here. But I truly feel in groove has an axe to grind with someone who he views as an “elite” simply because Fremer has been in the business for so long.
Mike bought a record from me and was very nice in our conversations. I’ve also bought several records from Mike and he was a very nice guy when I went to his store, and he has one of the top record stores in the country. Thank you both for continuing to spread the love of all analogue mediums with a focus on quality mastering! It would be more productive to the community for less contentious and more good-humored discussions.
Thank you Chad, Fremer and Mike you all are making this vinyl hobby fun! Fremer's magazine articles is how I got back into vinyl in the 90's!! 😉✌
Great debate. Both individuals are very passionate about records, but Mike E. came way on top, not even close. Brought up his points in a better manner (cool and collected). Mike F. on the other hand looked and felt frantic.
Fremer sounded frantic, and a little manic, think his heart is in the right place, but Attacking In Groove Mike was bad form.
I didn't question his ethics or integrity. He repeatedly questioned mine. He got frantic too at times but you just like him better. I'm fine with that and obviously you're fine when he would not watch the link I provided proving that after 100 plays the lacquer has not lost anything. He faults the organization that posted it for being HONEST. That's just absurd....
@@AnalogPlanet bang on Frem
@@AnalogPlanet My dude. you started the whole exchange with a 12 yo "we know why you dont like ERC. You dont know what youre talking about Nyah nyah nyah nyah". THATS all that anyone needs to know about the whole exchange. THATs who you are. And the the fact that he blew your 50 years of experience out of the water IN HIS OPENING response -- with quotes from nearly everyone who actually knows about laquers -- is almost besides the point. And please Michael, your WHOLE THING is being frantic.
The passion these men have is great. They all have good points and respect them all.
Learned a lot from this about the industry, marketing, markets and consumer behaviors.
The best 102 minutes of VC discussion ever!
I’m still listening/watching. Regarding ERC. If you’re gonna sell records for $500 there should be no defects of any kind whatsoever. Pressing or packaging. Another thing that caught my attention was Michael talked about there being an A/B listening session with an ERC pressing and another (sorry forget which one) and he mentioned some preferred one and others the other. The ERC should have been unanimous
I think these meetings should be a "thing" and next time y'all should include Ken Micallef and German Michael! Only good things could come from these conversations. Everyone's passion and love for the topic keeps things civil and educational. Civil conversation in 2021 and acceptance of other's views is certainly a RARE thing. Best to all of you guys.
Michael nd Mike. You are both knowledgeable nd this has been a great debate. Much respect to both of you....
Do you think John Coltrane would have cared about any of this lol
I am convinced that you could blindfold certain individuals for a lacquer & vinyl blind test and they'd argue while listening, pointing out audio imperfections. Then they'd remove their blindfold to find out that there never was any record on the TT, it was Coltrane playing live all along. Then, 1 or 2 of them would start arguing with John that he sounds better on lacquer or vinyl.
I always thought that Chad Kassem is a pretty amazing human being, on top of his professionalism, but this just proves it undeniably. What a great result of a great idea -- very enjoyable video!
Items are actually "loaned" for review ...nod, nod wink, wink. And I should add professional recognition among peers is quite intoxicating...that "lunch" is much more than a "lunch"...for anyone, not just Mikey...and this is the way every industry works. Biased...absolutely...it is what it is...hard not to be...but you are right Mike...ERC should be meticulous! The best stuff today on vinyl considering everything is Chad's standard LP reissues and Blue Note Tone Poets..super simple based on sound and outstanding pressing quality. Also Chad ships in bombproof packaging...never ever got a spit seam from his company. Just sayin'!
for the price it should be flawless.
I'm holding off for the format that has been taken to space by Elon. I want my copy of Dark Side of the Moon to be from the side of the moon with all the alien hotels.
Fremer has become the ultimate insider when it comes to records and the record business. He gets trips to Europe paid for. For the purpose of talking about analog recordings. Sometimes during these expensive trips he pulls out high quality, rare pieces of physical media and plays them. This is his past and future - hopefully. He is a very fortunate person and he knows it. He effing earned every bit of it through his desire to live a life sharing music. I love his content and want to thank him for showing us common folk the men behind the curtains.
This current scuffle over a new expensive format is the same as the arguments over cables. The rich man gets the best while us common folk, through arrogance are forced to believe our gear is just as good or that the high end stuff is not worth it. Our own mind wants to tell each of us we are the best at something, and when a rich guy walks up and gets better stuff we feel slighted somehow.
I love Florian Kaps and I love Michael Fremer, but I have to lean towards Esposito's point.
enjoyed the discussion, shout out to my local boy Mike at In Groove who gets all my business, hope that Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem stay close pals
All is well that ends well. Great future for vinyl and those who patronize great sounding records.
It's shocking that Fremer doesn't get it regarding ERC. Complete lack of reason.
Interesting debate. I have to say that I have watched both of your shows. I came prepared to agree with AP. However, IG had some powerful points. $500 per a record
is so far outside the mainstream that it is turning people off records. The vinyl revival will kill itself with this type of greed.
No one is forcing anyone to buy the ERC records, all of which immediately sell out because people like them. There are many other alternatives. I just don't see it as "greedy". It's a hand made product made with great care and it serves a specific audience especially the classical collectors who crave the rich tube sound of records that in their original pressings cost thousands of dollars. Here they can get them for $500 instead. Much less costly.
I don't think mainstream listeners are going to encounter these super-premium releases that often. They're something you order from a specialist vendor or directly from the label, and unlikely to be available through traditional retail channels
@@AnalogPlanet The Classic Records Everest reissues have a wonderful tube sound too and are dead quiet. Why did I get many of them for under 30 Euro in NM condition if 500 dollars is considered cheap? Are collectors idiots? Of course not, I am the idiot because those Classic Records reissues have pretty much no resale value and the ERC reissues triple in value immediately. But I'm not into this hobby to make money but to enjoy great music no matter what people think a record is worth. I hate that the vinyl boom makes vinyl collecting a rich man's sports. It becomes more and more exclusive like the wine world a couple of decades ago turning off the real enthusiasts. I have no problem with ERC in particular but with the trend of exclusivity. Maybe in 10 years from now we won't even see AAA releases from dead artists anymore for under 100 dollars because record companies can't press more but figured out they could charge more.
@@AnalogPlanet "Its a hand made product made with great care" until it comes to quality control. Youre telling me that at no point does it occur to Hutchinson to say "hey Ted, this guy from Wisconsin just paid $500 for this. Wanna make sure it doesnt have a seam split?". THATS "great care".
anybody who walks away from the hobby because ERC exists wasn't really in it to begin with.
Seam splits in cover are absolutely the fault of the record label and how they deliver packaging to protect for that, especially if you are spending hundreds.
Not quite related, but those 30 ips tapes- the frequency response of machines at that speed are generally rated as 40 hz upwards, so people often drop to 15 ips or lower to capture the bass frequencies. I'm pretty sure that countless albums have been recorded at 30 ips with frequencies lower than 40hz. Any chance of a test?
Both of these guys are great and i love their channels. I just hope the folks that pay $500 for these laquers make a 192/24 digital recording on the first play, preferably using a Nagra…
I think there was hyperbole on both sides.
They are both firey characters that are passionate about vinyl and also come from different perspectives. One a reviewer and one a seller.
One problem, though, is when you call out someone for exaggeration yet are guilty for the same "crime", you dont really have a leg to stand on to blow up at someone.
Also, calling them an angry person in their critique video while your yelling in a subsequent video is also kind of a case of a pot calling the kettle black now isnt it?
Throw around Mr In Groove digs and such and youre proooobably going to get a bit back. It smacks of "Im a professional journalist and you..youre just...one of those lowly record dealers that make "youtube videos"
Thus the statements about free records and bias. Tit for tat.
Im not one of those who judge Mike F and his motivation for reviews. I dont know his heart and dont judge his integrity based upon "freebies". I have my issues with his reviews many times but its not based upon "He is a biased journalist because he got free records". Maybe he is, maye he isnt. He says he aint. Ill leave it at that and give him the respect that he is being honest.
But as far as disrespect?
Well, get disrespectful and call people stupid or look down on them, youre probably not going to get much respect back.
As far as "proof", in the video Chad, the lacquer guy and the turntable guy (sorry cant recall the last two fellas names) all three agreed that lacquers are not exactly ideal and in fact degrade and/or have transformation of the groove shape over time and with plays. In other words..not good.
The guy who does lacquers seems to lean more not on the lacquer being "shaved off" or whatever by the needle as much as time being a factor in which chemical changed take place.
Either way, they back up the statement and longstanding understanding by other industry pros that lacquer is simply an inferior and unstable medium. Especially compared to your standard vinyl lp.
To me it boils down to this:
The big elephant in the room isnt all the flexing and hyperbole or yelling ir name calling. It isnt about something turning to dust or I have played this many times and its still fine.
Its the fact we do not know for certain the stability of these expensive lacquers and when compared to the tried and true vinyl lp, its not exactly the smartest risk.
Its a load full of money to spend on a relativly risky medium. And hyperbole aside, I got that is what Mike E was saying in his initial video.
There are high percentage risks and lower. Id say lacquers fall in the later category.
So Im not sure how Mike F really proved anything. No one in the video agreed with him concerning longevity, durability or practicality of lacquers as a medium to have music recorded. Chad simply conceded that "life is a risk" lol Diplomatic to say the least.
I agree though that an independent study would be interesting. Though it still would not tell us what these lacquer reissues will be like in 10-20 years or even less.
But yeah, somebody have a spectral analysis machine handy? 😁
In the end if someone wants to purchase a $1,000,000 edison cylinder because they think its the bees knees.. I dont care. But I also think that someone has the right to critique that choice with logic thats been proven and backed up by professionals. And someone has the right to be pissed and express it to his customers and viewers if they see by their experience a company isnt holding high enough standards for the price they pay.
Long live vinyl records! Right on🤙🏻
You are a great reviewer one of the very best .Keep on being you .I subscribe to you both .Blessed are the peacemakers.
I have a lot of respect for Mike after this video. Props brother.
I kind of think Chad is involved mostly to promote his business/ offerings.
Yes there’s a bit of that here.
Who is being talked about at 36:30??
You.
I have now finished looking around, and I could not find another video on the ultranet where the word "lacquer" is mentioned more often.
Great stuff. I hope the vinyl train keeps going full steam ahead!!!!
THE VC NEEDS ALL THREE OF YOU . ALL THREE OF YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO US .
Interesting what Gary said about pre echo. I hear pre-echo on many albums.
Thanks guys, that was awesome and very helpful.
Hello Michael. When can we listen to your recorded system directly through an iphone? Thank you.
16:55. Fremer months ago talking about MOFI records that didn’t sound good and why. So Espo and his fans going on now about Fremer being offside on his interview with MOFI makes no sense
Mike Esposito is one honest guy!
I certainly know more now than before this video, the catfight worked to our advantage, my take is that the guys selling the lacquers should mention the difference with vinyl.
I notice that it's harder as a reviewer to get promo LPs. Not a problem since I end up buying things I'm interested in covering.
I just bought a MCA Impulse pressing of Coltrane Live at the Village Vanguard for 12 bucks. Sounds great
Hearing that the Kind of Blue 33.33 UHQR is nearly "sold out", im hoping that the 45 UHQR isnt too far behind. I skipped the 33.33 in favour of the 45 release however you didnt mention it in the vid.......AP are still looking to release the KOB 45 UHQR right?
The 33 UHQR KOB promised the world but delivered short for many customers. Poor pressings and ingrained noise in abundance depending on which pressing run each copy fell in to. Luckily I got a good pressing.
Hopefully, the 45 will be much improved.
It's not nearly sold out. It's back ordered. The run is 25,000. The last shipment the numbers on the LPs were 7,000+
@@scottwheeler2679 well they said there were 500 left...anyway that wasn't my point. They didn't mention the 45 UHQR KOB so was wondering if it's still going to be released
@@TheChromeTree No worries. Beware of artificial scarcity. I haven't heard one way or the other but if I were a betting person I would bet the 45rpm won't come out until they sell out or nearly sell out the 33. Which I don't think will be anytime soon. I know everyone loves Chad and I think he has been a real power house in the audiophile world. But as a businessman he has done a few things over the years that I consider kind of unethical. Watch for it. Price increase on the 33 KOBs due to "low stock" then boom, the 45 rpm at a new established higher price.
@@scottwheeler2679 I'm not too worried as to when, just hope they do. I bypassed the 33 in favour of the 45. Will be a pissed if they decide not to release it on 45
I purchased a new vinyl record last week.Took it out of its jacket to clean it and both were scratched.i went back to the store and the manager opened x12 double lps to get X2 unscratched records.oh and it was £29.99
Evidence should be shown to each other before this program
Loved this so much!
in grove is correct PERIOD
I heard there's this new technology coming called... Compact disc? ~My friend just got one in his car!
I wish i had 50 to 100 thousand on free records. And conflict of interest, everyone has that. Not only in this business. By the way: sound is something different from used material.
But i agree that you expect a perfect record if you buy one for 500$ . If you dont get this, refund or ask for another one. That should be the law.
Always good to speak the truth.
So help me out here are we saying that the lacquer sounds better than the original pressing if it was in mint condition 🤔
I'd like to see the reviews of the MOFI's because I bought that Simon and Garfunkel assuming it would be better than my original.
The most I ever paid for a record was $200 and that was for a RCA shaded dog Witches Brew. Which I bought because a friend needed money.
I agree to Mike. Man if your producing limited edition with a high price tag, should be perfect, should be quality controlled. doenst matter if got change or not the point is we paying to get this thing in perfect condition.
Practice makes perfect but nobodies perfect, so why practice? - source unknown.
Is Chad baked?
No real winners here, but respect for showing up particularly Mike E. Tough Gnarl
3 Hours worthwhile, Thank You All!
I just love you all my main bitch about records is people buying all kinds of main stream records and big sellers back in the day. It’s people like disccogs and some other company’s. Which is now driving records thru the roof. Now people like me who are retired living on a Budjet now cannot afford.. I feel these companies there are alot of people want too get into vinyl but simply can not afford too get into the gig.. is so unfair that theynjack the -prices through roof and drive us out of the market. Please companies give us a chance too enjoy our hobby I know your trying too build your company’s and make a living but we want too be able too enjoy our hobby too. What a interesting show that was, I love you all!!!
Been waiting for that Quiet Kenny repress a while now. Get it done, Chad!! As for the lacquer debate, the Korf Blog is a very interesting read. It's very carefully done and honestly sheds more light on longevity than anecdotal evidence. I don't understand Mike Esposito's reluctance to read or consider duplicating their results except for the fact that it would show he's incorrect. Sounded like Mike Fremer even would have gone in on getting a third party unaffiliated with Supersense to verify the results. Between that and the video plays of the two older lacquers, I'm not sure what more anyone could ask of Michael Fremer to prove he is correct.
Interesting discussion on all sides. I don't appreciate Michael F swatting away Mike's point by saying "that's anecdotal evidence," when Michael F was the one saying "I've listened to this one lacquer"... to "make" his point. Having said that... The amount of knowledge in this room is mind-blowing. Frankly, after listening to this discussion, I'm regretting my choice to get Coltrane's "Love Supreme" on K-Tel Records.
Carry on, gents!!
I mean Fremer literally started the whole thing by providing actual graphs.
Which are not anecdotal evidence… He even said to Mike “if you don’t believe the graphs there’s nothing I can do about that but here they are”
I wouldn't care if my Camry was delivered with some light scratches on the hood, but I sure as hell would say something if it were a Porsche. It's also such a pain in the ass to exchange a record and part of the $500 should be the peace of mind knowing that you won't be dealing with any of that bullshit. Also $500 is a ridiculous pricing for a record and normalizing that is part of the problem - unless we're talking about a vintage record which has appreciated in value because of rarity
The ultimate message should be that each buyer is free to waste his or her money as he or she sees fit,
and no one has any business telling that buyer what to do.
Chad takes his time formulating his thoughts, but I think he's really cool!
Relating to the comments about the poor sounding "Bridge Over Troubled Water" One Step, do the original multi track tapes exist?
If so, couldn't they just make a new remixed master tape, as Giles Martin has been doing with the Beatles catalogue?
And perhaps do the same for the first Doors album?
If Paul thinks its necessary, and why would he?
@@BubblesBubbles well, I don't know Paul's thoughts, but would guess he wouldn't mind his music to be heard at it's best, by someone who has an interest in that sort of thing.
An Esposito vs Fremer battle - In my opinion, Esposito had the better argument. I agree if they want to charge such insane prices, the records should be flawless. Mistakes happen in mass production, but on very expensive limited high-end runs, nothing inferior should make it out the door.
Love both these guys and vinyl is the s***!
As an old school dj, its clear that vinyl sound better! cd's have ruin the dj competence...i have listen very old vinyl more than 60 years and they are still good! With cd aluminium get oxidation and don't work after 20 years...thats a fact! cd and numerisation have killed the work of real dj's...the price of vinyl must stay reasonable...I was collecting rare vinyl when everybody go to cd and download and it was cheep, not anymore... for mixing nothing can compare with the touch of vinyl...Analogue for ever! Also i think mastering of vinyl is not as good as it was in the past...So mixing right is very important...Great respect for the people that keep the vinyl alive!
Acetate degrade pretty fast but still collectible and special when you play it, also picture disk and colored vinyl are nice but don't last in time as good vinyl!
Great respect for Michael Fremer great passion and thanks for the reviews and your honesty!
Why is Esposito making his case as if he’s sticking up for the “average” consumer? What “average” consumer is spending $500 on a single record? That is not an average vinyl enthusiast nor an average customer in his store. If those guys with the money want to buy these records so what? Let the guys with the money spend it how they want. If it’s defective they can Send it back and get a replacement. Also, how is the guy who is “moderating” this a direct competitor to ERC and admits he’s never listened to one of their records……wtf?
And how does a cutter head - amplifier sounds like? Probably opposite equivalent to the 120lbs class A Monoblocks beside your Wilsons... :-)
This is an honest question. I’m not trying to be harsh but Fremer is 75 and won’t live forever and can’t take them all with him. What’s his plan for the thousands of records he owns. Let’s hope Scrooge McDuck of vinyl Mike Esposito doesn’t buy them. He always charges an arm and a leg because his records and only his are always the most “cherry.”
(I know this is old) If there are lacquers that are degraded, then surely, just show these old things how they are damaged and people can see the issue.
Very good comment. I’m sure they exist, but let’s see them and see how old and how many plays. Fremer produced his and even played them for us. They sound great. I believe it’s like he said. Take care of them. You may have to take extra steps that you wouldn’t with regular vinyl. And also like he said, if you don’t want them don’t buy them. In Groove is trying to white knight for the “average” consumer. Average consumers aren’t buying $500 records. Period. Go pick on the thousands of $30 records with defects that average consumers ARE buying.
16:15. Espo really is offside (I don’t know what’s in your heart)
Yeah I agree that was a garbage comment to make.
One time at an audio show Fremer came into one of the rooms and played one of his prized records with reported excellent sound quality. The people who set up the system in that room treated him like a god. I heard his record and thought Fremer lost his hearing. Guys, I don’t trust this guy with anything he reviews.
I agree with Mike E., for 575 I shouldn't be able to detect any flaws. Whether or not the record is actually "perfect" in some Platonic sense, that's a different point and I don't think Mike E. is arguing that
It's about them at this point. 3 days ago Michael Fremer wrote his "final comment" They can't let it go. At this point the discussion has extended for several hours. It's narcissistic supply for the both of them. Cluster B rock'em sock'em.
At end of the day I do think this has been able to get the education out there which was I believe was In Groove Mikes’s intention from the start…. 2022 sounds like it will be a great year…
I love passionate nerd fights!
Fremer Bob said it the best. In the times are changing
These supersense lacquers are not for joe blow vinyl fan. I think most of the people buying these know what they are getting into...
Cool debate guys, I love all these guys but man, who buy those 500$ records? The most money I can put on a record is 100-120$ max. And at that price I expect perfection. On that I’m with Mike, if my 500$ record is not perfect when I received it I would go completely crazy!!!! But most people don’t put that kind of money on a record. The debate is interesting but it really talk to a really small amount of people. Thanks guys 😁
Right? Oh, and Michael's response is well, they'll take it back and make it right. Ok, fine, but why defend the company's practice of letting shit like that out of the factory in the first place? They make and ship just 300 records a month!
I agree. I'd pay over $100 for something out of print that I absolutely love. I'm not the type to collect multiple pressings of something unless I'm buying an upgrade. As for new records, I just bought Aaron Neville's Warm Your Heart for $60 (expensive for me for a record, though it is a double) from Acoustic Sounds and wow- that is one of the best sounding records in my collection and I've got some great sounding stuff.
After all is said and done, Mike E said some slightly hyperbolic shit about lacquer in a casual setting not trying to be scientific and Fremer came at him multiple times and was unable to prove anything besides that he sort of looks down on Mike E and that he hates being wrong. I don't care that he likes ERC. I think he's wrong on both the count that their business model is terrible and that lacquer seems to be provably pretty bad. I never would have known he was so annoying on this subject if he hadn't brought the fight to Mike E several times. And hey I don't really even know who Mike E is. I found this stupid beef through Fremer's channel. Very funny that since this happened Mike E received and unboxed really bad ERC.
I think the point that is lost in forgetting that this all started because Fremer decided to turn this into a Thing is how much less negative ERC/laquer content there would probably be from Mike's end if Fremer hadn't forced him to defend himself. He would have talked shit on them once or twice and moved on.
I had to stop watching because I started getting frustrated but here's my view: I think most all media degrades over time. I would never buy a record for $500. If I did, I wouldn't play it 100 times ever.... but if someone does, it's thier business. In the audiophile biz, there's alot of things I would never buy, but if it makes someone happy and they can afford it who cares.
Agreed. But IF you did buy a $500 record wouldn’t you demand that it had no defects of any kind?
@@ScottTice1971 Absolutely! But no one is arguing that. From what I can tell is one person is implying that nothing should ever leave with any defects (because of the price), and the other person thinks that sometimes mistakes are made. Either way, you should be able to send it back and replace it. I mean I sort of demand all records be defect free, but it's not always the case.
@@bhob666 The point Mike is trying to make is that for $500, and only 300 being made, the lacquer should be perfect (barring any shipping damage). If there are scratches or bubbles in the lacquer that probably did NOT happen during shipping and should never have left the factory. It's a waste of time for both the seller and the buyer... as well as bad PR for the company obviously. These pressings should be inspected thoroughly BEFORE going out the door. If Mike has received multiple copies with issues then there is a QC problem that needs to be addressed.
@@ScottTice1971 I know the point he was trying to make, but people aren't perfect and they make mistakes. If he feels the quality control isn't good, then don't sell or recommend it. If someone else wants to buy it anyways, they should be able to.
It seems like Fremer just don´t WANT to get it! Tiresome.
Fremer comes off as big bully in this… he can’t take any constructive criticism or can’t see the validation of someone else’s point. Just typical of older record collectors , they come off as very condescending with this know it all attitude .. and they look down on people that don’t know as much as them.. no longer a Fremer fan ..