Greatswords around the World Part 01: The Schlachtschwert (Zweihander)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 ส.ค. 2024
- Let’s talk about the Schlachtschwert!
0:00 Introduction
0:12 Area of Usage
0:20 Origin of Name
1:00 Average Measures
2:09 Anatomy of a Schlachtschwert
2:15 Pommel
2:43 Hilt
2:24 Crossguard
4:02 Early German Crossguard
4:45 Normal German Crossguard
5:49 Swiss Crossguard
6:30 Austrian Crossguard
7:05 Ricasso/ Fehlschärfe
8:27 Parrying Lugs/Horns
9:34 Blade Shapes
11:53 Written Sources
13:40 Iconographic Sources
14:18 Battlefield Use
15:09 Schlachtschwert against Pikes
16:18 Tactical purposes
18:15 Battlesword vs. Gunner
19:33 Parade/Bearingswords
20:08 Conclusion
Check out these videos I took some footage from:
Björn Rüther:
The Pretzel - an early 16. cent. german Battlesword
• The Pretzel - an early...
JYF Museums
Primed and Loaded | Matchlock Arquebus Rate of Fire
• Primed and Loaded | Ma...
Arms & Armor Inc.
Cutting the heads off of pikes? Testing a Two-Handed Sword.
• Cutting the heads off ... - บันเทิง
![[ไฮไลต์] มวยสากลฯหญิง รุ่น 66kg จันทร์แจ่ม สุวรรณเพ็ง ไทย vs แอลจีเรีย รอบรองชนะเลิศ | โอลิมปิก 2024](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nt71uhZjn6Y/mqdefault.jpg)
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Great video 😊 now I want my own Zweihänder
It would be an honor to help you achieving this aim!
Great video. Extra points for the cat
Great video
Very kind, thank you
honestly, using cats a unit of weight measurement for swords is the only way to go, going forward 🤣🤣
This is a very great detailed explanation. You have explained many of the things I was unsure about and taught me many new things as well regarding these big swords.
Great video. Lots of great information, well presented and I will always support anyone who furthers the cause of promoting the correct historical term "schlachtschwert"! Looking forward to future videos maybe on montante, spadone and o-tachi/nodachi!
Next video will be about Montante and/or Spadones but Nodachis are on my list, like Nagamakis and Zhanmadaos
🗿👍
I want to build on with hands on the cross guard. It is a zweihander, it has zwei hands
This sounds great
I would like to see this in person one day XD
Well done
Thank you very much
I am making a document about these swords and during my research I learned that 'Flamberge' is an incorrect term for 'flame shaped greatswords'. Flamberges were later renaissance rapiers it would seem. Flammard or Flambard would be better wordings for the greatswords. Take this with a pinch of salt, it's very contradictive when searching online...
But a great informative video nonetheless. Learned something new about the Danish pretzel swords, very nice!
Yes, There is so much contradictive informations in the Internet, in Books and even in Museums. I however did some errors in this video I am going to correct these in an upcoming video about the early Schlachtschwert I mentioned here.
But the next video will be about the Montante that will hopefully be better 👍
I've always heard/read the following :
1) flamberge was just a term to describe flame blades but was not referring to a particular sword type.
2) Flammard/flambard are non-peroid terms invented by later museum curators to describe flame blades rapiers.
Does your research show different? I'd love knowing what you have found out.
Yes, the Flamberge is a type of Bladeform. I haven't heard of Flammard or Flambard so thank you for teaching me something new. May I ask where you got this information?
Oh yes, researching online is a pain in the ass. So many wrong informations and some bits of truth here and there
very informative video. I already have a montante and war sword but where did you get that awesome shirt?
I found it on amazon by HEMA Lovers
Uff-Da! Those Scandinavian swords didn't have pretzel guards they had krungla guards 😂
*Scandinavian humor
**im from the US & about 1/4 Norwegian so my joke might be less humerous as a result 😂 jk
Regarding the cross guards imo thats only partially the case. There are many early and later Schlachtschwerter that have normal straight quillions and some countries copieds others or simply imported the full deal. The S-8 Shapes were probably for the most part simply fashionable and offering bit more protection and the cross guard of the earlier ones seeem to have been as long as later ones sometimes longer. Do you have the local styles from Neil Mevilles book? Because he suggested something similar but for example for the swiss and spanish style i did found german equivalents as well. And Meville's book has some problems regarding it's sources and personally i heavily disagree with some of his theories and statements of said book.
Im still not convinced by the ricasso and parry hooks being for half swording. For example the styrian ones prevent it. i know of almost no evidence of it being done. Many swords also have the hooks really close to the guard making half swording with the ricasso impossible. Furthermore i remember a painting where the greatsword was hold in reverse like a polearm but it was still hold with both hands on the sword grip.
Only marozzo shows one picture but his sword is a not really a Schlachtschwert(as far as i can see) and he used the word spada. Theres paladini as well but he does not relaly half sword either rather using fabris rapier vs polearm approach and does not use the ricasso for this.
So in my opinion they're only for protection/deflection similar to the Schilt.
The Schlachtschwerter attacking musketeers do you know the source for it? I heard and read it a few times but couldn't find a source for it would be interested if you know.
As far as i remember the Spadone and Montante weren't really considered civilian weapons as well. Fabris also states that he didn't want to write about the Spadone and other weapons because they're not a weapon for gentlemen and almost never used in encounters and therefore belong to military campaign.
This is not intended as criticism rather my personal opinion, the rest was pretty good. Liked that you pointed out the misconcenption about the term zweihaender and Bidenhander etc.
Hi, Thank you for this comment, I really appreciate good dialogs on this topic👍
Yes, I used "The twohanded Sword" from Neil Meville for some chapters and tried also to find more sources but I could only find pictures from Museums from different countries that undermine his claims, but no "scientific esay" on this topic. I approached it with the thought of what kind of crossguards were predominant in these countries. Overlapping styles especially by neighbours are always possible and remember that making more and more categories between Swords is a modern thing but a funny one which I wanted to add. Doesn't work 100% of the time but style mixes are common in many things. May I ask you what other sources to read when you disagree heavily on Neils Book? I'm always open for new input.
Regarding the halfswording I might add that I meant to say that the ricasso and parrying lugs gives you an option you can resort to if the need arises. The styrian kind of crossguards prevent it which I also said in the video which can be because those who chose this kind of Crossguard were either not thinking about it or didn't see any worth of halfswording (maybe regional styles of fighting with it or dismissing halfswording with it alltogether).
The picture where you hold the Greatsword like a polearm with both hands on the grip is known to me from Ken Mondscheins "The art of the twohanded sword".
It does work, but I found this stance very energy consuming and although my sword has a long Grip, I didn't feel very stable holding it that way. But as soon as the crossguard went between my arms and the hand held the sword on the ricasso I had more reliable structure to work. Maybe thats just my anatomy but I really prefer this kind of grip since it is also in longsword fencing and Spadone fighting.
Overall It is less tireing when you shift the balancepoint of the weapon this way.
I still agree on the deflection/protection value, I like to catch weapons with the horns in the bind. Forgot to mention It in the video.
Schlachtschwert on musketeers: My source for this was a german podcast of "Schwertgeflüster" where they had Jan Gosewinkel as a guest. He is a great name for greatswords in germany and talked about this matter. I read it also perpetuing around in the internet but To my shame I have no insight of a manuscript saying or depicting this.
Schlachtschwerter do get mentioned in battlefield context more than in a civilian context, but I found it to be reversed in the Montante and Spadone. Reading Godinho and Figueyredo, I get more the impression of them as a civillian weapon and a fast declining in military use but I am researching this topic right now so I don't pretend to know better and I am going to read more about it.
Thank you for your opinion, I really like this exchange and looking forward for your answers and insights!
Stay healthy and fency👍⚔️
Yeah the whole topic of that is quite complicated. The problem is that some styles seem to be from different regions and some museums just have big batches of said style from a foreign country probably through trade or something like this and weren't native to the land.Some were certainly dominant in some regions of the HRE but some styles im kinda sceptic about. Have to agree modern categories can be helpful but also worsen things at the same time and that can escalate quickly.
I mostly try to find primary sources, archives etc since imo many books aren't really good on this topic. Boeheim for example is also someone i strongly disagree with.
Meville cites some good sources but comes to the wrong conclusion. For example he concludes that swords that cannot be grasped by their ricasso are bearing swords which is weird because inventories often show them as being bought for war. For example the ones in Graz where apparently bought because of the immenient threat of the ottoman empire. He also quotes Adam junghans von Olnitz's Kriegsordnung where he wants to point out that there were only 10 Schlachtschwerter, however i read an earlier Version and a later Version from 1611 of said book and there are 14 Schlachtschwerter again. He also quotes the Rolls of fifteen Towns in Baden Wuerttemberg to show that they did not have many Greatswords anymore. However the problem with this is that those rolls are inteneded to show what the citizens already have according to their income and they're ,for the most part, not rolls that are showing companies ready to march. Thats why there are often few Greatswords but the lacking weaponry was often supplied by the City or the Obrist and given out. I also think that he should have differentiated between longswords and greatsword more strongly. One source he mentions about two brothers fighting off thai pirates, i couldn't find the source for and have seen several versions of that event partially contradicting each other. Someone pointed out iirc that he had read the source and it was kind of shaky because it was second or third hand. At least its not easily traceable. But despite all of that i do like his book becaues it does quote some arsenals, inventories and primary sources and there is quite a bit of work put into it. And it has quite a few useful pictures for references etc.
Yeah good point and if it works it works it's just that i couln't find any reliable sources on this aside from Marozzo where i couldn't find out what kind of sword it is supposed to be. Since he talks of spada instead of spadone or spadone due a mani. My reasoning is just that this was probably not the reason for the ricasso or the hooks to be added or at least not the prime reason for them being added. Protection which you mentioned in the video is what i think the main reason was. Many pictorial sources also show swords with no lugs at all. I assume thats because the munition grade Swords did not or rarely survived therefore we only have the more expensive or "state owned" swords surviving. Personally i find grabbing it near the lugs to be quite awkward because there aren't many possibilities when grabbing it like this.Not to say it never happened it's just hard to prove.
An example is that if enemies come too close one could simply draw his sword and against pikes weirdly enough the fencing manuals all seem to have somewhat different approaches.
Forgot that Alfieri does show it as well in the context of duelling. For this purpose it could work quite well. You are basically in prima so you can parry most hews from above and thrust. May look very awkward but is probably quite efficient. Kinda like di Grassi's one shot trick. But there is also a copper engraving showing something similar being done against ottoman soldiers(iirc).
Personally while at first the stance is quite weird it's also kinda funny but it seems to be surprisingly effective for duels.
Ah yeah think i listened to that podcast too but been a while. I know that there were tactics of baiting muskets into firing by skirmishers but greatswords are not specifically mentioned but would have been likely included beside halberds,pikes and arquebuses. I know one picture that could indicate such tactic but it's hard to say since they would technically need to fight the pikes at that point. But
The whole civlian vs military thing is a bit confusing there seems to have been a perception of them being military weapons. Not to say they weren't used by civlians but in this context it seems to have been kind of illegal. The sources also are often directed toward a certain audience and not the normal civilian so its hard to say. But often they seem to assume either nobility or Soldiers/certain types of citizen. Figo wrote his Manual for the Crown Prince iirc so it's rather personal. Not much known for Godinho as far as i know.
But some tidbits seem to make a differentiation between Soldiers and Military and citizens regarding rights etc.
Anyways great to see your takes on it. Important to note is that i do not dismiss things entirely it's just that some seem more unlikely according to my research but who knows maybe sources will appear that will confirm them.
@@superrobotmonkeyhyperteamf3194 Hello, sorry for keeping you waiting.
With the styles of the crossguards it is like shoes: I can buy Cowboy-boots in germany and wear them although I am neither Texan nor had the boots been manufactured there since they are more likely from China.
There is also a possibility of People seing those styles and saying "I want that swiss/Styrian style for my Schlachtschwert" and the german Smithie followed that demand. Primary sources are of course the best sources you can find to interpret them yourself. Victorian scholars read them too, but like always people can read the same thing and come to different conclusions; so an updated view would be very appropiate and good to do. I think someone with more insight like you come to other coclusions than a scholar who had now obsolete informations. May I ask you where you find those old sources? I am thrilled to read more on these topics.
Ah yes just now I read your argument about wrong conclusions (I read each paragraph, answer to it and continue) so yes I agree you on that matter. I am a sliiiiiight bit dependend on these kind of books that get mentioned somewhere or that pop up in my google search (Yes I know, the Internet is full with informations of various Qualities and a huge lack of it) and still have to sort out misinformation or unlikely true claims.
So yes, always be sceptic about sources like the Book of Meville when the informations collide with your own knowledge. Especially when you understand more in the texts as the author.
Halfswording with a Greatsword:
It just seems a bit strange for me that there had been Longswords for many years without parrying horns to help halfswording (Except for duelswords with a blunt handle in the middle of the blade) but after the earlier Schlachtschwerter evolved into a different form, the parrying lugs were there. Also on Montantes and Spadoni ( A Spadone is a bit special because they tend to be more like longer longswords than real greatswords in my humble opinion). Then again you are right on the matter that many swords didn`t survive their usage through war. I also saw fewer sources for the more elaborated swords used by landsknechte, but I found the iconographic sources of military units after the Landsknechte difficult to find when it comes to Battleswords. Maybe one day I find some, that would be cool.
I still disagree which grip on the Schlachtschwert while halfswording is better/worse, but my opinion doesn`t matter because you should always do what works best for you. Why trying to adapt to something that somehow works against you if you can achieve the exact same outcome with a different grip. Go for it :)
When it comes to Enemies closing too much to use the Schlachtschwert I agree with you. Throw it away and draw your backup. Like in my video "Can you use a twohanded sword onehanded?" it is more adviceable to resort to your sidearm in this situation.
Manuscripts being made for certain audiences or as gifts for certain people make it difficult since most of them weren`t meant to be educational. Gladly we still read them to get a slight impression to work and expand on them. Experimenting with these sources is a cool delight but nothing scientific with absolute, measurable outcomes so this field will always be good for debates.I think it is completely free for interpreting the context of them or weather they had been written with the intend to be serious or not. I agree there with you.
Hey, no problem I like a good mannered debate with a knowledgeable person like you, so don`t take something personal I write because I don't do it as well. May I ask you from which country you are coming from?
@@A_Medieval_Shadow
Agree on this there is a similar case with halberds from italy that copied german halberds and had the name " german halberds" with the same ornaments etc. Nürnberg and other big cities even copied Passau stuff or northern german stuff, while Braunschweig copied from southern germany sometimes. Nürnberg while ironically being one of the biggest also had the harshest punishments for copying ther armourers and blade marks. There are definitely some ornaments going on that can hint at a certain region or part of a land but some armouries seem to have just bought what they liked.
Really hard to say some older victorian researchers had some absolute worse interpretations of the primary sources but they do quote them sometimes which allows for your own. Sometimes it really surprises me how they overlook clear evidence for some tactics or armour. However i think much more important is they did often not want to go against the common consensus or had an collectively agreed upon idea of the middle age and renaissance and therefore tried to force everything into their theories no matter how much evidence speaks against it. Iirc there is one guy that did surprisingly early on already suggested that firearms were not the decline of knights and armour. But politics are often an important key factor like "our ancestors were barbarians we are civilized".
Also going to archives can help and some less known books sometimes quote interesting parts. Sometimes i had to read 600-900 pages books in old german to only find one sentence that helped. But over the years and because its one of my hobbies i gathered quite a bit. Fencing books also give some hints direct or indirect. Ofc there are pictorial sources as well and researching how battles were actually fought and how tactics etc were created is important too because that helps interpreting the pictorial sources.
Neil Mevilles Book is pretty much a good start just his conclusions are partially something i would disagree with. Like for example bidenhänder describing Greatswords for war while Schlachtschwert describes the later mostly parade swords. I really like his book it has some very good references to draw from. google can help or it can get you stomach
ache. I think one problem is that some of the tactics and strategies of armies using greatswords are not clear or are often missinterpreted. Verlorene Haufen is a very good example for this. Some take the Trewe Rath as a source for commong tactics however the author clearly states that his tactics were not common. Once i organised all the sources i intend to publish a colletion and my interpretation/suggestions for hema enthusiasts but no clue when or where.
Technically you could say the horns come from the Schilt of training longswords. At least one interpretation. It could be needed when fighting bigger weapons and the crossguard itself does not protect you as reliable anymore. On the other side there are often examples depicted without the horns. Maybe too expensive for a bit of extra protection/binding power. Are the longer longswords called spadone? i remember that most of them were called spada due a mani iirc. But agree they're more longsword than a proper warsword.
The i know some pictures that show the elaborate ones but they are more rare. Probably more expensive so they do not appear as often in war. And sometimes artists are lazy thats one important point. To draw them or to put them on copper plates/woodcuts would be really expensive and unecessary work. Rembrandt has some iirc.
There are some wild things with grips, di Grassis one shot trick or alfieris 1vs1 posture and others. But i always say if it works it works though sometimes it depends on the context if war or civilian life. Really need to properly test alfieris posture but sadly dont have a trainingsgreatsword (one with a rolled tip i mean).
simply mentioning the sidearm topic because some say the halfswording should be done when opponents are too close.
They still help us understand the weapon but they often take some knowlegde for granted. And they are definitely fun to use but i think that it is important to keep in mind that the manuals are often written with certain context and we cant say that this and that is set in stone with few exceptions. And even contemporaries did in some form criticise the reglas because the "possibilities are infinite so why reduce them with the reglas".
Glad to hear some people take offense though then again somewhat understandable because in the internet there are all kinds of people. Coming from Germany.
Paladini uses the ricass grip, but has no lugs (I show this on my own youtube chanel).
th-cam.com/play/PLqSy3t3AEwv9SV9mdtXkCVb8SQher8sOl.html&si=eqDmaqPuCvuz4ThZ
Spadone and Montante have been used in military AND civilian context. In civialian, mostly for "self defence street fighting", but sometimes also duels of honor and other 1 vs 1 fighting(Lovino & DiGrassi for the Spadone). While for the Schlachtschwert, I have foundly exclusefly military context - besides some funny Turnierbücher...^^