EV = "information is more important than whether I am good at this or not" ----> BRILLIANT. Send me a link how to build this thing. This is the BEST vlog on TH-cam!!!
Thanks Eric! This helps me win my argument. I sum through an API "The BOX", and I hear an immense difference in the sonic expressions, wider panning, smoother top, controlled low end, more cohesive stereo mix, etc... I love your channel!! It's great to have a pro like you!! Thanks man!
I’ve watched this again and it really clarified the Sonics around the analog summing for me. It seems to me that analog takes away some transient peaks reducing some amount of clarity but it sounds so good that it seems ‘right’ but technically is distortion- it’s changing the information. Also I thought that the 20 digital conversions had some element of this too, like the transients were slightly diminished and that was good but I would am not 100% sure of this
Awesome video as always Eric!!! I just built the DIYRE 16 into 2 passive summing mixer and even with only 2 inexpensive 500 series neve clones, the difference was incredible. It was more for me than the difference that this video showed, which speaks to the incredible work you do no matter what the system is that you’re working on. But I will definitely be using the summing mixer from now on.
That Pedal Show needs your UTA vari-cap cable. I think they are doing a more in-depth show on capacitance soon and your cable would be such a great demonstration tool. It has changed my life! Haha. Such a brilliant idea. Just found your show recently...wow! Great content Eric! Thank you!
I feel like we're just hanging out chatting about this or that (be it production dives or summing mixer breakdowns) when Im watching your videos, and I gotta say... its honestly bad ass. Most channels on YT are gearing towards editing their videos so that things are fast paced and have the vibe of being specifically a "YT video" and I don't hate those videos I watch plenty of YT channels. The thing Im getting at is that you're just doing your thing, being yourself and saying fuck all that nonsense which is really fucking cool man. Much love and respect my man! Thank you for the informative and relaxed vibe of your videos. Keep doing your thing EV! BTW its hella appreciated. \m/ - King
Just thanking you again for doing this. Yesterday All American Rejects was on the radio, and I totally forgot that you did that too! It just jumped out of the car speakers! So great sounding.
Wow! That was amazing! Especially the 1:4:20 conversions bit. And the insight about digital adding nothing and analog absolutely adding color. Thanks, Eric!
The potential degradation in quality that happens with AD/DA conversion mostly comes into play during the 1st conversion. The converter has it’s boundaries in terms of frequency response / reproduction that sets the “tone” (no pun :)) for what that audio can possibly be further on after one passage of conversion. If you continue to do passes of that very same audio it seems like it also stays within those boundaries and doesn’t degrade more. But if you compare the same non-converted audio but through 2 different converters in just 1 pass, the difference is massive! So conversion might not be degrading audio from one reference point onwards, but it sure can be either better or worse depending on the converter during the first pass through it.
Eric, thanks for sharing your knowledge! Your mixes and arrangements sound so musical and deep, it’s a treat to hear you explain your choices and thoughtproces. I’m learning a lot!
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brilliant ! 20x! that was a very positive surprise, if the analog insert provides your sound with more mojo and more in-accurate abstractions that create joy, then don't ever be afraid of leaving the DAW and returning with the goods :)
Very very awesome video with great information, I’m in the process of building a Summing mixer using vintage api 325 cards, the reason I stopped using a Summing mixer and purchased a console is I could Not stand my Automation rides effecting my compression. The Summing mixer I’m having made now is going to be mostly used as additional returns to my console and for when I want to mix totally ITB to use it as stand alone mixer. I agree the beautiful thing about a console is you are going through multiple amplifier stages that equals the sound that most of us love. Great video thanks!
Really cool to show this entire process - love your channel! Also, it shows how small the differences are in the bigger picture: both mixes perfectly bring the song across in my view. Thank you!
This was awesome. I really want to do this but I have a lot of gear to get first like the preamps but man in a year or so when I do I'm gonna do this. thank you for geeking out and showing us how you did this. so cool
Eric great show! aAfter your series of informative videos, this geeky tutorial clarifies some of my thoughts on building my summing mixers. Now I am going to try mixing though different summing stages as well.
Super cool of you to do these videos and give us amateurs a peek behind the current. Also, you a super nice guy. I met you and Geoff Tyson when T-Ride opened for Joe Satriani way back when. Killer show.
That bit where you did 20 conversions was a fascinating way to end this video. I've always wondered about this but never thought to actually try it. I don't have an Orion, but a similar priced converter so I'm assuming mine will be the same too. Nice work Eric!
That's brilliant Eric! Also your YT channel is full of quality and real info. I did a lot of testing between ITB vs OTB summing and to my surprise, with Protools 11 (it's when Avid built the mixing engine from the ground up and also went to 64 bit) the difference was minimum, not to say none. So for summing I'm pretty pleased with Protools, but still use lots of hardware inserts, plugins are still far from analog processing. As always, IMO
This is a level of technical prowess along with engineering/mixing artistry/creativity that is almost beyond my comprehension. But, I will keep watching.....wow. Listening on decent headphone I could barely tell the difference between OTB and ITB.
Wow wowo wow the 20 conversation sounds the same to me, that's a big eyes opener as I use an Orion 32 as well, also was great meeting an chatting with you at the event "An evening with Eric valentine" at the SX Pro UK
Hey Eric, this is great! I'm very interested in building the mixer. Would love to check out the link you mentioned. Thank you so much for giving us all the opportunity to see you work. Great channel!
Thanks for doing this videos Eric, just amazing! I can see things like the Bettermaker and WesAudio units working good for the inserts on this setup... with a total recall version of the Unfairchild !! :)
Awesome! Thanks so much for doing these and sharing your knowledge. Your drum sounds are so incredible in these tracks. I'd kill to be able to get the kick sound in this song. I'd love to see a video where you go in depth about your drum tuning, treatment, and mic placement for a track like this. Thanks again!!
That mix / production is so good. Very subtle ITB vs OTB. Love the information on summing mixers, I built my own but it's not nearly as advanced as your complete rig.
I don't think summing makes any or much difference, but running stems through preamplifiers with transformers definitely change the sound, it's probably all we can hear here
You are great. I love your channel, and how much you nerd out on stuff. I'm slightly disappointed you didn't do an inverted polarity null test right at the end there with your conversions you did. -.- :-D. I *thought* I heard a slight loss of high end, but, maybe it was just placebo, especially since between 4 and 20, if 4 was audible, you'd expect 20 to be easy to hear. But it would be interesting to see more sort of scientifically what amount of difference there may or may not have been. Look forward to more content. Your channel kicks ass!
Highly informative video! I've spent so much time last year screwing around with passive summing, building different amounts of channels, using different pres, etc. I ultimately abandoned it completely because it changed my work-flow too much. I also didn't really find that the preamps making up the gain had really that dramatic effect. So it's interesting to me that that is still the case using 8 of them in all the various points. I mean, I could definitely hear the difference but for someone like me who doesn't really have a way to deal with automation with in-line dynamics, etc the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze. Thanks for making these videos!
Well this was a joy! The difference is there from the summing OTB, you can surely describe the thickness of the low end also I think the image is wider??!! I would be really interested in building something similar.. Cheers
TH-cam probably won't allow the sonic differences to shine through. Very good to see and probably a lot more fun to mix OTB-apart from all the extra time needed for hardware inserts and printing stems etc etc. If you have the budget go for it. Sonically the end listener would not be able to tell the difference even when pointed out. : ) Personally I like to use my external reverbs and sometimes taking extra time doing things clears your mind for a second. So as for a mixing process I believe it's a good thing.
Bass on the left wigged me out at first but I love how a lot of those old records are often panned like that. I was just talking a few hours ago about how the song "Express Yourself" by Charles Wright has the drums panned hard left. Love the panning on your stuff which leads me to a question... When you're arranging a production, do you put much thought into how the eventual mix will collapse to mono? The main reason I ask is because I've been listening to the Grace Potter "Midnight" album a bunch since your video featuring "I'd Rather Go Blind" and had forgotten I had set my phones output to Mono so when I was listening in the car it was mono for the first 3 or 4 listens. I was amazed how little it losses when played back mono. If i'm honest it actually took two more listens before I liked it better in stereo haha.
Hey brother.. As always such great information and often just fun insight in how us nerds try to solve creative problems. I've been in the box for years now and still miss analog for many reasons but also don't at all for so many others! Hope to see you soon. J-
I think you're right about the conversions Eric, maybe it lost some mids perhaps? but I'm starting to think maybe my mind wants to hear a difference after so many conversions, very interesting, can't wait for the next vid.
Hi Eric, super funny, when the part on your diy mixer showed up, I was actually building busses for a full size 80 series class A console that I'm building to original Neve specs (don't know that anybody did that before haha). It was real fun to see how you did your stuff, can't see why there aren't any multibuss summing mixers available:) ! Hit me up if you wanna know more about that crazy console project of mine, I know you've been there, it'd be nice to chat!
Mr. Valentine, big fan! So glad you started a channel. Question for you... Can you recommend a book or a guide for getting started on DIY audio electronics? I'm an electrically proficient guy, but I have trouble finding info short of just copying other's designs.
That is tricky. I didn't get very far with books because audio circuit design seems to be so subjective. There are so many ways to achieve a similar technical result on paper but the beauty of the sound is the subjective part and from what I've seen, It takes decades of experience to really know how to do that. That is why I have Larry Jasper involved. My best recommendation is to find a mentor who's design taste you respect. That is the fastest path to designing audio circuits you love the sound of and then ultimately taking them in your own direction.
Hey. Love all the videos you do.! Appreciate taking the time. Very helpful. I had a suck-ass drum mix on one of my tunes and I used your mixing drums vid to save the day. Anyway, I have had a Shadow Hills Equinox and now work with 3 Rupert Neve 5059s and a 5060. I find myself riding the faders a lot (too much). I would love a product that can automate after outboard. I have about 25 outboard units. I find a lot of time I will print stems back into computer and then automate. Boy, it would be nice not to have to commit to a stem that way--in addition to wrestling with timing issues after printing back in. Keep up the nerd videos. Maybe you can do one that addresses how you print back ITB and not have to deal with timing issues, phase, etc. I use Logic and haven't found a way to compensate printing outboard gear. THANKS!!
Hi Eric I sold my big Yamaha Pm2000 console today, The same one I grew up on Lots of Iron and Japanese hardy M1 Op Amps, Now I am freaking out that I will not get the mixes and sounds I am used to having, I started watching you on u tune an d some others looking at summing, I still have tones of gear and a few cool consoles I might try to used in the new smaller set up so that I can fit a mix set up in my house, my other console a massive live console I toured with a Soundcraft Series 4 will not clear doors into my house and weighs a half ton , So I am very keen on your new set up and building a mix summing set up, In the past my in the box mixing experiences sucked, I HATE in the box sound and miss all the vibe of my analog gear m depth texture etc, So I am considering something like you are doing or a new smaller ( Maybe an Amek console slight smaller, The idea of un loading some more gear and up grading a few things is exciting, I might add a fair child and keep a dozen cool pieces to use in the new rig, I also live the idea of the new way with recall a smaller power bill ,less AC and compact foot print I am soldering compliant , electronics is not complexity un familiar, and I have had plenty of bad gain and impedance weirdness over the year with gear,, The idea of re using many of my pres for color and vibe is cool , Love the idea of trying this, Pass on any info you can to build a summing mixer,I realy need to find a copy of the summing software and don.t want to buy an SSL , although it is very cool, Is there anywhere to find the summation software? I got to re watch this video a few times to understand the summing mixer wiring , excuse typos
This is amazing thank you very much Eric! I wonder if another reason the ITB Hardware inserts don't sound quite as solid or spatially consistent as the OTB summing could be because the delay compensation of the hardware plugin inserts causes different tracks to be played ever so slightly out of time, and therefore the kick is just out of time with the OH etc. The hardware insert plugins are changing the phase relationships of the audio tracks ever so slightly and therefore it spreads it all out a bit... idk just a thought.
Great Videos, love the entire series. Would please deconstruct the mix of that song? Would be fantastic to share a List of material for building the summing mixer 😊 Thanks Eric !
Very nice exploration here. A few questions sprang to mind and at the end with the multi conversion experiment: percussion may not reveal as much as content with overtones--violin or voice for example--and there is no mix context with drums soloed: would it be probable that some stems or aux sends may get converted more times than others in the ITB/break-out technique? some latency smearing kind of thing could happen... Thanks for breaking this down for me, I have been challenged wrapping my mind around the patchbay/routing to build something similar.
Please post a link for the formula and documents to wire the summing mixer. Love this video series and please continue with tech stuff like explaining the circuits in the Undertone products!!
so, you need 8 mic pre's, 8x VCA controller, and a passive mixer(plus outboard gear) to get it "a little more glued together"? I'm curious how sending a buss out of protools (to outboard gear and pre's)and printing back into pro tools, then summing in the box(out to unfairchild) would compare? Also, if you inserted your I/O in pro tools to outboard gear wouldn't you be able to have control over output volume to summing mixer without changing your send level to outboard processing? I understand your trying to avoid going in and out of the converters, but it would only add one round trip.
Your point is totally valid. Even this somewhat modest setup (compared to a full blown console) is still difficult to justify. In my opinion, The passive summing itself doesn't have a sound. It is all of the color from the mic pres and outboard gear that is important. I could conceivably create the bussing in pro tools, use H/W inserts to add the preamp color/outboard processing and get the exact same result. The only difference would be the additional convertions and phase related latency issues. I will probably do that test at some point along the way :)
A great video again. Thank you so much for sharing! Maybe you could mention one detail in one of the next videos. You said you have a music and a vocal bus. In wich of these two buses do all the effects go, that you use on vocals and also instruments? Thanks again and sorry for my bad English. :-))
The more ITB experience I make the more I learn that the drastic differences are most often not the gear, they are simple and easy mistakes in level matching which also old dogs do - everyday. I assume that it is extremely difficult to reproduce the exact setup ITB. Going and mixing from scratch using the advantages of ITB may create a more interesting sounding mix. Btw a hint Sonnox inflator on your ITB mixbus will ad the right amount of harmonics to get the same coherence of your hybrid mix...last but not least the ITB mix wouldn’t break the beautiful Song.
Inspiring and amazing Eric. You should definitely consider developing it further to commercial product. Do you have an electronics background or how on earth do you know how to go about this? Also, the string arrangement is so cool. I’d love you to break down how you came up with it and what overdubs that single player did to make it sound like that.
I never went to school for electrical engineering. My father was an aerospace engineer so I grew up around it. Most everything I know about electrical engineering I have learned from Larry Jasper. He designs the circuitry for Undertone Audio. He is an unbelievably brilliant human being. I consulted with him on this summing mixer project. I will at some point go through the string layering recording thing, I did a bunch of it on this most recent record and got the best results yet. I may wait till the fall so I can show one of those songs :)
I'm not so sure. I hear the 'out of the box' mix as having slightly greater depth or feeling of 3D-ness, which is what I always tend to find working on an analogue desk versus ITB. That seems less likely to be about what "analogue adds", although one theory goes that we are hearing some randomizing phase shift (or other random differences between inevitably non-identical analogue channels) that adds to that feeling of depth or clarity .
Wish you would have flipped the phase between the 20th conversion with the original drum buss to really hear if there was a difference. Love your videos!! Can you put the resistor excel sheet in a shared file and put it in the description?
Hey! Hope you enjoy the Pyra-sum as much as I am! There are two options for reverb/delay stuff. It can either be sent to the same output that the instrument or vocal is being sent to OR if you want to do the more traditional send/return style, there are extra inputs called "Direct To Buss" that can be used for that purpose. Example: if you have a collection of vocal tracks that are all being sent to the same reverb, the vocal tracks themselves would be sent to the vocal inputs and then the reverb return would be sent to the "Direct to Vocal" buss. This is especially useful if you have a mono lead vocal that is sending to a stereo reverb. You can then process the mono vocal with mono outboard gear and have the stereo reverb be blended with it in the overall vocal buss. Good question! Hope that all makes sense :)
@@mrwev Thanks, that makes sense! I'll probably go the route of sending direct to bus since compressing a signal with reverb in it will bring up the effect level too much.
Question: if we can't afford the SSL box or build your summing mixer, would it be possible to get the same effect by mixing each subgroup out (drums, then vocals, then etc) to external hw and printing to stereo tracks back in the box and automating those stereo pair submixes during a final mixdown in the box?
The short answer is yes. The summing itself is not what is sonically beneficial about the external summing system. It is really the color of the mic preamps and any other outboard hardware you might be using. If you setup the sam summing system of busses and auxes in Pro Tools and simply inserted mic pres and other outboard processing via H/W inserts you would probably get the same result.
@@mrwev Thank you very much! Many moons ago (before there were better reverb plugins in the box) this is what I would do to print Lexicon reverb onto effected tracks, and then blend those into the final mix, in the box. :-)
What's really crazy is I did this through various pieces of outboard gear and it really starts to fall apart quick. Went through a RND 551 EQ, and various API pieces. So it's definitely safe to say analog gear degrades the sound far more than digital conversion.
I think the eternal ITB and OTB ( and digital /analog tape) debate is somehow a good metaphor or analogy to the current lifestyle / culture we live in. Doing things that are fast and comfortable and give immediate satisfaction but we don’t really know if they are what make us happy..things like that..We are just used to ITB and Digital because it’s there, fast and easy, but in my experience it is way less fun.
EV = "information is more important than whether I am good at this or not" ----> BRILLIANT. Send me a link how to build this thing. This is the BEST vlog on TH-cam!!!
sooo true!
It takes a very special circumstance for me to leave a comment. This is one! You have no idea how useful your video series is!!!
This is the best mental stimulation I’ve ever gotten from TH-cam. Sheer brilliance! Thank you for sharing this information!
I can't get enough of these. Thank you Eric!
grampageoff666 it’s so crazy, but these differences make the differences in the record. This is awesome!
Thanks Eric! This helps me win my argument. I sum through an API "The BOX", and I hear an immense difference in the sonic expressions, wider panning, smoother top, controlled low end, more cohesive stereo mix, etc... I love your channel!! It's great to have a pro like you!! Thanks man!
investment bias 😢
I’ve watched this again and it really clarified the Sonics around the analog summing for me. It seems to me that analog takes away some transient peaks reducing some amount of clarity but it sounds so good that it seems ‘right’ but technically is distortion- it’s changing the information. Also I thought that the 20 digital conversions had some element of this too, like the transients were slightly diminished and that was good but I would am not 100% sure of this
Awesome video as always Eric!!! I just built the DIYRE 16 into 2 passive summing mixer and even with only 2 inexpensive 500 series neve clones, the difference was incredible. It was more for me than the difference that this video showed, which speaks to the incredible work you do no matter what the system is that you’re working on. But I will definitely be using the summing mixer from now on.
That Pedal Show needs your UTA vari-cap cable. I think they are doing a more in-depth show on capacitance soon and your cable would be such a great demonstration tool. It has changed my life! Haha. Such a brilliant idea.
Just found your show recently...wow! Great content Eric! Thank you!
Loving this series, and one of my absolute favorite folks, keep 'em coming!
The level of detail is great Eric! This one is a real gift!!
I feel like we're just hanging out chatting about this or that (be it production dives or summing mixer breakdowns) when Im watching your videos, and I gotta say... its honestly bad ass. Most channels on YT are gearing towards editing their videos so that things are fast paced and have the vibe of being specifically a "YT video" and I don't hate those videos I watch plenty of YT channels. The thing Im getting at is that you're just doing your thing, being yourself and saying fuck all that nonsense which is really fucking cool man. Much love and respect my man! Thank you for the informative and relaxed vibe of your videos. Keep doing your thing EV! BTW its hella appreciated. \m/
- King
Just thanking you again for doing this. Yesterday All American Rejects was on the radio, and I totally forgot that you did that too! It just jumped out of the car speakers! So great sounding.
Wow! That was amazing! Especially the 1:4:20 conversions bit. And the insight about digital adding nothing and analog absolutely adding color. Thanks, Eric!
The potential degradation in quality that happens with AD/DA conversion mostly comes into play during the 1st conversion. The converter has it’s boundaries in terms of frequency response / reproduction that sets the “tone” (no pun :)) for what that audio can possibly be further on after one passage of conversion. If you continue to do passes of that very same audio it seems like it also stays within those boundaries and doesn’t degrade more. But if you compare the same non-converted audio but through 2 different converters in just 1 pass, the difference is massive! So conversion might not be degrading audio from one reference point onwards, but it sure can be either better or worse depending on the converter during the first pass through it.
Eric, thanks for sharing your knowledge! Your mixes and arrangements sound so musical and deep, it’s a treat to hear you explain your choices and thoughtproces. I’m learning a lot!
brilliant ! 20x! that was a very positive surprise, if the analog insert provides your sound with more mojo and more in-accurate abstractions that create joy, then don't ever be afraid of leaving the DAW and returning with the goods :)
Very very awesome video with great information, I’m in the process of building a Summing mixer using vintage api 325 cards, the reason I stopped using a Summing mixer and purchased a console is I could Not stand my Automation rides effecting my compression. The Summing mixer I’m having made now is going to be mostly used as additional returns to my console and for when I want to mix totally ITB to use it as stand alone mixer. I agree the beautiful thing about a console is you are going through multiple amplifier stages that equals the sound that most of us love.
Great video thanks!
Really cool to show this entire process - love your channel! Also, it shows how small the differences are in the bigger picture: both mixes perfectly bring the song across in my view. Thank you!
Amazing. Keep doing this forever, we'll appreciate it.
Love this! Please do more videos on electronics for audio engineers!
These are all great videos ! keep em coming Eric ,Thank you
This video ruled! Thanks for taking the extra time to get into real detail on the entire signal flow!
Dude, this is so inspiring! I’m inspired to get my soldering iron out and make something! Keep up the great work!
This was awesome. I really want to do this but I have a lot of gear to get first like the preamps but man in a year or so when I do I'm gonna do this. thank you for geeking out and showing us how you did this. so cool
This is far beyond everything out there. Thank you so much Eric!
Can you explain at some point why you've got the Lynx, Antelope and Apollo all in the same setup?
WORDS OF GOLD...or maybe worth DIAMONDS!!! Thank you SENSEI for your knowledge, and the formula spreadsheet!!!
Eric your videos are BRILLIANT. An army of noobs really appreciate this material. Thanks Eric, really, really thanks...
Wow... the ITB mix has more low end but sounds smeared. The OTB mix has great definition and clarity. Love it.
Thanks Eric. Again, you are a voice of reason in an audio world of hype.
this is awesome ! so many experience shared to us. Thank you very much for that Eric
Eric great show! aAfter your series of informative videos, this geeky tutorial clarifies some of my thoughts on building my summing mixers. Now I am going to try mixing though different summing stages as well.
Many Many thanks for these highly informative videos man! Not a bore at all, this is top quality education from a professional!
Super cool of you to do these videos and give us amateurs a peek behind the current. Also, you a super nice guy. I met you and Geoff Tyson when T-Ride opened for Joe Satriani way back when. Killer show.
Reminds me of the Altair, an early computer... You are truly a wizard Eric! Thanks for the inspiration!
That bit where you did 20 conversions was a fascinating way to end this video. I've always wondered about this but never thought to actually try it. I don't have an Orion, but a similar priced converter so I'm assuming mine will be the same too. Nice work Eric!
That's brilliant Eric! Also your YT channel is full of quality and real info. I did a lot of testing between ITB vs OTB summing and to my surprise, with Protools 11 (it's when Avid built the mixing engine from the ground up and also went to 64 bit) the difference was minimum, not to say none. So for summing I'm pretty pleased with Protools, but still use lots of hardware inserts, plugins are still far from analog processing. As always, IMO
Love your videos! Thanks so much for taking the time to do these Eric. =)
This is a level of technical prowess along with engineering/mixing artistry/creativity that is almost beyond my comprehension. But, I will keep watching.....wow. Listening on decent headphone I could barely tell the difference between OTB and ITB.
Wow wowo wow the 20 conversation sounds the same to me, that's a big eyes opener as I use an Orion 32 as well, also was great meeting an chatting with you at the event "An evening with Eric valentine" at the SX Pro UK
Brilliant dude. These videos are amazing. Love the conversion test at the end.
Hey Eric, this is great! I'm very interested in building the mixer. Would love to check out the link you mentioned. Thank you so much for giving us all the opportunity to see you work. Great channel!
This is great man, I’d love a BOM of this unit...
Seriously thanks for this.
This is my new favourite channel. Thank you!
Thanks for doing this videos Eric, just amazing! I can see things like the Bettermaker and WesAudio units working good for the inserts on this setup... with a total recall version of the Unfairchild !! :)
Awesome! Thanks so much for doing these and sharing your knowledge. Your drum sounds are so incredible in these tracks. I'd kill to be able to get the kick sound in this song. I'd love to see a video where you go in depth about your drum tuning, treatment, and mic placement for a track like this. Thanks again!!
Thanks for doing this Eric🙏 And man that is one funky tune!
That mix / production is so good. Very subtle ITB vs OTB. Love the information on summing mixers, I built my own but it's not nearly as advanced as your complete rig.
I don't think summing makes any or much difference, but running stems through preamplifiers with transformers definitely change the sound, it's probably all we can hear here
Really cool, Eric! I enjoy the science mixed in with the art.
You are great. I love your channel, and how much you nerd out on stuff. I'm slightly disappointed you didn't do an inverted polarity null test right at the end there with your conversions you did. -.- :-D. I *thought* I heard a slight loss of high end, but, maybe it was just placebo, especially since between 4 and 20, if 4 was audible, you'd expect 20 to be easy to hear. But it would be interesting to see more sort of scientifically what amount of difference there may or may not have been. Look forward to more content. Your channel kicks ass!
These videos are amazing! Thanks Eric!
I look forward to these so much!!!!
Highly informative video! I've spent so much time last year screwing around with passive summing, building different amounts of channels, using different pres, etc. I ultimately abandoned it completely because it changed my work-flow too much. I also didn't really find that the preamps making up the gain had really that dramatic effect. So it's interesting to me that that is still the case using 8 of them in all the various points. I mean, I could definitely hear the difference but for someone like me who doesn't really have a way to deal with automation with in-line dynamics, etc the juice just wasn't worth the squeeze. Thanks for making these videos!
Wow man.. it's awsome what one can do with the right knowledge.
Loved your drums too, Steve Gadd is the man.
Thank you Eric. Humble and genius. all the right things being said!!!
I'd love to see a full episode on this song or something else from that record!
Astucieux , ingénieux Bravo et merci pour le partage !! all the best from Paris !!
Sounds amazing! Great job Eric!
Well this was a joy! The difference is there from the summing OTB, you can surely describe the thickness of the low end also I think the image is wider??!! I would be really interested in building something similar.. Cheers
It would be interesting to hear a replication of the bussing architecture and gear, ITB, to hear the differences. Great work!
TH-cam probably won't allow the sonic differences to shine through.
Very good to see and probably a lot more fun to mix OTB-apart from all the extra time needed for hardware inserts and printing stems etc etc. If you have the budget go for it. Sonically the end listener would not be able to tell the difference even when pointed out. : )
Personally I like to use my external reverbs and sometimes taking extra time doing things clears your mind for a second. So as for a mixing process I believe it's a good thing.
interesting experiment Eric, thanks for sharing it and yourself genuinely.... cool .... peace...Mathew
Bass on the left wigged me out at first but I love how a lot of those old records are often panned like that. I was just talking a few hours ago about how the song "Express Yourself" by Charles Wright has the drums panned hard left. Love the panning on your stuff which leads me to a question...
When you're arranging a production, do you put much thought into how the eventual mix will collapse to mono? The main reason I ask is because I've been listening to the Grace Potter "Midnight" album a bunch since your video featuring "I'd Rather Go Blind" and had forgotten I had set my phones output to Mono so when I was listening in the car it was mono for the first 3 or 4 listens. I was amazed how little it losses when played back mono. If i'm honest it actually took two more listens before I liked it better in stereo haha.
Just the best videos. Nice one Eric.
Hey brother.. As always such great information and often just fun insight in how us nerds try to solve creative problems. I've been in the box for years now and still miss analog for many reasons but also don't at all for so many others! Hope to see you soon. J-
I think you're right about the conversions Eric, maybe it lost some mids perhaps? but I'm starting to think maybe my mind wants to hear a difference after so many conversions, very interesting, can't wait for the next vid.
Hi Eric, super funny, when the part on your diy mixer showed up, I was actually building busses for a full size 80 series class A console that I'm building to original Neve specs (don't know that anybody did that before haha). It was real fun to see how you did your stuff, can't see why there aren't any multibuss summing mixers available:) ! Hit me up if you wanna know more about that crazy console project of mine, I know you've been there, it'd be nice to chat!
Mr. Valentine, big fan! So glad you started a channel. Question for you...
Can you recommend a book or a guide for getting started on DIY audio electronics? I'm an electrically proficient guy, but I have trouble finding info short of just copying other's designs.
That is tricky. I didn't get very far with books because audio circuit design seems to be so subjective. There are so many ways to achieve a similar technical result on paper but the beauty of the sound is the subjective part and from what I've seen, It takes decades of experience to really know how to do that. That is why I have Larry Jasper involved. My best recommendation is to find a mentor who's design taste you respect. That is the fastest path to designing audio circuits you love the sound of and then ultimately taking them in your own direction.
Hey. Love all the videos you do.! Appreciate taking the time. Very helpful. I had a suck-ass drum mix on one of my tunes and I used your mixing drums vid to save the day. Anyway, I have had a Shadow Hills Equinox and now work with 3 Rupert Neve 5059s and a 5060. I find myself riding the faders a lot (too much). I would love a product that can automate after outboard. I have about 25 outboard units. I find a lot of time I will print stems back into computer and then automate. Boy, it would be nice not to have to commit to a stem that way--in addition to wrestling with timing issues after printing back in. Keep up the nerd videos. Maybe you can do one that addresses how you print back ITB and not have to deal with timing issues, phase, etc. I use Logic and haven't found a way to compensate printing outboard gear. THANKS!!
Hi Eric I sold my big Yamaha Pm2000 console today, The same one I grew up on Lots of Iron and Japanese hardy M1 Op Amps, Now I am freaking out that I will not get the mixes and sounds I am used to having, I started watching you on u tune an d some others looking at summing, I still have tones of gear and a few cool consoles I might try to used in the new smaller set up so that I can fit a mix set up in my house, my other console a massive live console I toured with a Soundcraft Series 4 will not clear doors into my house and weighs a half ton , So I am very keen on your new set up and building a mix summing set up, In the past my in the box mixing experiences sucked, I HATE in the box sound and miss all the vibe of my analog gear m depth texture etc, So I am considering something like you are doing or a new smaller ( Maybe an Amek console slight smaller, The idea of un loading some more gear and up grading a few things is exciting, I might add a fair child and keep a dozen cool pieces to use in the new rig, I also live the idea of the new way with recall a smaller power bill ,less AC and compact foot print
I am soldering compliant , electronics is not complexity un familiar, and I have had plenty of bad gain and impedance weirdness over the year with gear,, The idea of re using many of my pres for color and vibe is cool , Love the idea of trying this, Pass on any info you can to build a summing mixer,I realy need to find a copy of the summing software and don.t want to buy an SSL , although it is very cool, Is there anywhere to find the summation software? I got to re watch this video a few times to understand the summing mixer wiring , excuse typos
You’re the man! Thank you for all these amazing videos :)
This is amazing thank you very much Eric! I wonder if another reason the ITB Hardware inserts don't sound quite as solid or spatially consistent as the OTB summing could be because the delay compensation of the hardware plugin inserts causes different tracks to be played ever so slightly out of time, and therefore the kick is just out of time with the OH etc. The hardware insert plugins are changing the phase relationships of the audio tracks ever so slightly and therefore it spreads it all out a bit... idk just a thought.
Your layers are awesome! like to know more about your summer when it come out.
Great Videos, love the entire series. Would please deconstruct the mix of that song? Would be fantastic to share a List of material for building the summing mixer 😊
Thanks Eric !
Very nice exploration here. A few questions sprang to mind and at the end with the multi conversion experiment: percussion may not reveal as much as content with overtones--violin or voice for example--and there is no mix context with drums soloed: would it be probable that some stems or aux sends may get converted more times than others in the ITB/break-out technique? some latency smearing kind of thing could happen...
Thanks for breaking this down for me, I have been challenged wrapping my mind around the patchbay/routing to build something similar.
Please post a link for the formula and documents to wire the summing mixer. Love this video series and please continue with tech stuff like explaining the circuits in the Undertone products!!
Done!
so, you need 8 mic pre's, 8x VCA controller, and a passive mixer(plus outboard gear) to get it "a little more glued together"? I'm curious how sending a buss out of protools (to outboard gear and pre's)and printing back into pro tools, then summing in the box(out to unfairchild) would compare? Also, if you inserted your I/O in pro tools to outboard gear wouldn't you be able to have control over output volume to summing mixer without changing your send level to outboard processing? I understand your trying to avoid going in and out of the converters, but it would only add one round trip.
Your point is totally valid. Even this somewhat modest setup (compared to a full blown console) is still difficult to justify. In my opinion, The passive summing itself doesn't have a sound. It is all of the color from the mic pres and outboard gear that is important. I could conceivably create the bussing in pro tools, use H/W inserts to add the preamp color/outboard processing and get the exact same result. The only difference would be the additional convertions and phase related latency issues. I will probably do that test at some point along the way :)
Answered a lot of questions, cheers Eric
A great video again. Thank you so much for sharing! Maybe you could mention one detail in one of the next videos. You said you have a music and a vocal bus. In wich of these two buses do all the effects go, that you use on vocals and also instruments? Thanks again and sorry for my bad English. :-))
The more ITB experience I make the more I learn that the drastic differences are most often not the gear, they are simple and easy mistakes in level matching which also old dogs do - everyday. I assume that it is extremely difficult to reproduce the exact setup ITB. Going and mixing from scratch using the advantages of ITB may create a more interesting sounding mix. Btw a hint Sonnox inflator on your ITB mixbus will ad the right amount of harmonics to get the same coherence of your hybrid mix...last but not least the ITB mix wouldn’t break the beautiful Song.
Wow pretty impressive stuff. Thanks for sharing.
The titles of these episodes drastically under-sells the content. Amazing stuff.
you are a very intelligent man Love this channel!!!! Good Stuff great mixes!!!!Loved the SLASH ALBUM!
Thank you, Eric, this is going to be the best thing to happen online this year. Bit like Dave king's Rational Funk series but not as iconoclastic
EtcEtcAndEtc Definitely not as iconoclastic 😂
@@markv2360 impossible, right? Love that series, wish he'd do another. Very useful shows, in a different way
Inspiring and amazing Eric. You should definitely consider developing it further to commercial product. Do you have an electronics background or how on earth do you know how to go about this?
Also, the string arrangement is so cool. I’d love you to break down how you came up with it and what overdubs that single player did to make it sound like that.
I never went to school for electrical engineering. My father was an aerospace engineer so I grew up around it. Most everything I know about electrical engineering I have learned from Larry Jasper. He designs the circuitry for Undertone Audio. He is an unbelievably brilliant human being. I consulted with him on this summing mixer project. I will at some point go through the string layering recording thing, I did a bunch of it on this most recent record and got the best results yet. I may wait till the fall so I can show one of those songs :)
These videos are great!, thanks for sharing your wisdom! Any chance you could share a little knowledge on your old Mic Bot??!
Wow! That was super cool stuff!
And hands down impressive.
Serious dedication!
Btw, did you do a degradation comparison with your converters?
Great! Simply great! If you ever consider to make a diy Neve style pre with eq, that'll be great. Either way, great content.
I'm not so sure. I hear the 'out of the box' mix as having slightly greater depth or feeling of 3D-ness, which is what I always tend to find working on an analogue desk versus ITB. That seems less likely to be about what "analogue adds", although one theory goes that we are hearing some randomizing phase shift (or other random differences between inevitably non-identical analogue channels) that adds to that feeling of depth or clarity .
Wish you would have flipped the phase between the 20th conversion with the original drum buss to really hear if there was a difference. Love your videos!! Can you put the resistor excel sheet in a shared file and put it in the description?
The difference is quite evident, no nulling necessary
So good. Thanks for sharing. Would love to hear about that hefty drum sound.
So dope E! Thanks for imparting your science, fonk and soul. Ode to kissin my love, through distressors :)
Really enjoying your "super nerdy".
I love this. Would it be possible to get a link to the schematics?
Hi Eric, I just ordered the UTA Pyra-sum summing mixer. Question, how do you deal with reverb or delay sends in a passive summing mixer set-up?
Hey! Hope you enjoy the Pyra-sum as much as I am! There are two options for reverb/delay stuff. It can either be sent to the same output that the instrument or vocal is being sent to OR if you want to do the more traditional send/return style, there are extra inputs called "Direct To Buss" that can be used for that purpose. Example: if you have a collection of vocal tracks that are all being sent to the same reverb, the vocal tracks themselves would be sent to the vocal inputs and then the reverb return would be sent to the "Direct to Vocal" buss. This is especially useful if you have a mono lead vocal that is sending to a stereo reverb. You can then process the mono vocal with mono outboard gear and have the stereo reverb be blended with it in the overall vocal buss. Good question! Hope that all makes sense :)
@@mrwev Thanks, that makes sense! I'll probably go the route of sending direct to bus since compressing a signal with reverb in it will bring up the effect level too much.
Question: if we can't afford the SSL box or build your summing mixer, would it be possible to get the same effect by mixing each subgroup out (drums, then vocals, then etc) to external hw and printing to stereo tracks back in the box and automating those stereo pair submixes during a final mixdown in the box?
The short answer is yes. The summing itself is not what is sonically beneficial about the external summing system. It is really the color of the mic preamps and any other outboard hardware you might be using. If you setup the sam summing system of busses and auxes in Pro Tools and simply inserted mic pres and other outboard processing via H/W inserts you would probably get the same result.
@@mrwev Thank you very much! Many moons ago (before there were better reverb plugins in the box) this is what I would do to print Lexicon reverb onto effected tracks, and then blend those into the final mix, in the box. :-)
What's really crazy is I did this through various pieces of outboard gear and it really starts to fall apart quick. Went through a RND 551 EQ, and various API pieces. So it's definitely safe to say analog gear degrades the sound far more than digital conversion.
Brilliant!!! awesome work!
I think the eternal ITB and OTB ( and digital /analog tape) debate is somehow a good metaphor or analogy to the current lifestyle / culture we live in. Doing things that are fast and comfortable and give immediate satisfaction but we don’t really know if they are what make us happy..things like that..We are just used to ITB and Digital because it’s there, fast and easy, but in my experience it is way less fun.