Why is Orthodox Worship so Fancy?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 พ.ค. 2024
- Jesus was a plain, simple carpenter, and so that means that Christian worship should be plain and simple -- right?
Some Christians say that money spent on ornate vestments, music, iconography and architecture would be better spent on the poor. They say that all that "stuff" in church is a distraction or even gets between you and God. They say that Jesus came to do away with all that ornateness.
But do those criticisms actually align with the Bible? With the early Church?
And what is the real purpose of all that ornateness to begin with?
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An Eastern priest once told me, "God is not cheap with us, so we are not cheap with God".
also protestants spend an awful lot of money on music equipment, display technology, and multimedia. most of the money 'saved' does not go to the poor.
You Orthodox sure spend a lot of time hating Protestants. That's not very Christian. You either don't know Protestant's or you are incredibly dumb.
💯 the evanglicals building giant multimillion dollar megachurches that are eyesores for everyone as if that’s some kind of progress or virtue. It’s also pretty funny to me how Protestants will not bat an eye at spending $300 on a bible for themselves but the same people will look at a decorated Catholic or Orthodox liturgic gospel and call it extravagant. It’s so dishonest.
My parents Baptist church pay the pastor's dad 75k a year to be the music director. Their music isn't even good and his "work" is maybe two or three hours a week. Then they wonder how their budget is 28k in the hole and they can't afford to do charity work.
@@govols1995 75k?! thats a lot for a job that is part time. far too much. my local anglican church has a professional organist organise the choir and music for free. the only money he gets is towards repairing the organ
@@HenryLeslieGraham Not only does he get 75k, but he gets to live in the parsonage for free. The pastor himself bought a different house to live in and they give him extra money for those mortgage payments.
Christ is Risen ☦️
Truly He is Risen!
After seeing this video, I am so excited to go to heaven Sunday!
are you born again?
Isn't that the same argument Judas used protesting about the expensive myrrh the woman used to wash the feet of the Lord?
He does point that out, yes
Maybe you should actually listen, lol
I still can’t understand how everything I had been looking for was in the Orthodox Church.
Not in some self-seeking way, because Orthodoxy is anything but “convenient”.
I think of my soul as having this amalgamation of different “compartments” to it. As my soul was moving along seeking God in different “churches” some things get put in the wrong compartments, and you just get along. Experiences, teachings, personal sins all affected what went where. You always sense something is just off, but you can’t figure it out.
When I stepped into a Divine Liturgy for the first time, all the alarms started ringing, and everything was put in the correct compartment of my soul.
I love Christ and his Church more than I ever thought possible. (Much more to go of course)
Lord help me, forgive me, and save us.
Thank you for this video! I am a confessional Lutheran and we have a traditional and contemporary service. I object to the contemporary service because of exactly what you are saying. When we enter the church, we should leave the world behind. I am considering Orthodoxy because I don’t think our worship is reverent enough. My husband is Orthodox and we were married in the Orthodox Church in Amman, Jordan. It was a very special experience.
So glad you were considering orthodoxy, however, there are many more reasons it is the true church besides just comparing the level of reverence.
God bless you.
@@GuitarJesse7 Yes, you are correct. I’ve been reading a lot and studying. I know it’s the true church from the disciples and apostles and early church fathers. It is just a shame that the church split off. Wish we could all (Catholics and the zillions of Protestant groups) get back to the Orthodox Church. That is how Christ wants us to be - one body.
@@gloriakattouah8153 That's awesome that you're studying and coming to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church! Indeed he wants us to be one, but all we can do is be faithful to the conviction and calling that we've received. And pray for the Lord to have mercy on our friends and family, and also pray that they come to the same conclusion.
I was Lutheran and converted to Orthodoxy and love the worship, I'm home.
We (Confessional Lutherans) actually do acknowledge that we believe in one Holy, Catholic (universal) and Apostolic Church, we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins, etc…. When we say the Nicene Creed. Our biblical doctrine does not differ from Orthodox, it’s the worship service itself that I do not find very spiritual. Our belief is acknowledged through the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.
It's not fancy. It's glorious!
I am drawn to Eastern Orthodoxy lately. Was Catholic in my youth and have been evangelical most of my long life. This was very helpful to me. Thank you, Father Andrew.
Attended the Divine Liturgy today and was blessed to venerate a relic of St Justin !
Wow! You just slipped in that explanation of, 'in remembrance of me,' and it made so much sense. I've read that scripture so many times and couldn't understand why it was said. We are so behind on the literal history of the church. I love learning things like this because it brings me closer to His Word.
Yes, my wife loves it when I take her to McDonald's for our anniversary. She's doesn't want the linen table clothes, the china, the stemware and expensive food to get in the way of our love. 🙄
Hey man QPC is not a bad burger! 😅
I hope your wedding ring is made of fake gold too.
Fr. Damick is obviously right in this video, but America is at its core a fast-food nation, so we will have to be contending with these critics for a long time into the future.
@s.kreusler5081 and where are you from, sir?
surely since even i as a protestant know, that other evangelicals and protestants must know that the things themselves aren't being worshipped, but the reality behind the thing.
You Orthodox sure spend a lot of time hating Protestants. That's not very Christian. You either don't know Protestant's or you are incredibly dumb.
the bleakness and austerity of protestant worship is not more godly, in fact it strips worship of its power.
You Orthodox sure spend a lot of time hating Protestants. That's not very Christian. You either don't know Protestant's or you are incredibly dumb.
I don't know, I have once been to a Lutheran funeral involving a music band. It was fancy, they really tried. I don't want mine to be anything like that.
Thank you Father. 😊❤☦️
I am a catechumen in Canada. My priest has included some of your work in my catechism. Thank you so much.
Thank you Father. I’m loving your videos.
Great discussion, Fr Andrew!!! Thanks & God Bless you!!! 🌹CHRIST IS RISEN!!!🌹
This was so helpful. Thank you Father Damick.
the form of address in normal Orthodox practice would be Fr Andrew
Fancy pants liturgy 😆
Can’t BELIEVE people would make the place where they believe they are meeting God any thing more than a storage unit
Love the Middle Earth tapestry. Great video Father.
I have really been enjoying your channel.
We are all "paying for" the excesses of the RC church.
None of these ideas were raised seriously prior to the rise of Protestantism .
Христос Воскресе
It is mans way of trying to put what they see as important and give it to God. Yet it really comes down to the heart, which is unseen.
I absolutely love your Tolkien map! Can you let me know where you got it? I'd love to drop it as my backdrop in all my online meetings. 😂
I bought it on Amazon 4 years ago, as I recall.
Something like this is SUPER important for Orthodox college kids to know who might attend a Protestant college - especially if there is required chapel attendance! There's no doubt they will be questioned by their peers.
Great video!
Awesome video! Loving these topics. Please keep them coming 🙏
Great video
This was very helpful. Thank you!
That a carpenter had a simple cup makes sense, BUT His followers would do everything possible to praise, protect and proclaim The Chalice of Salvation.
Out of the Catacombs and into the Basilicas!
Idolatry is a great Sin, But so is Iconaclasm.
We love the Material, without falling into Material-ism.
Most people: I need more books in my background so people think I'm smart.
Fr. Andrew: Fewer books, more Middle-earth!
Very thoughtful and concise on such an important topic. Thank you Father!
Thank you Fr. Stephen.
Excellent video.
An excellent explanation, Father. BLESS!
Thank you so much for making this so succinct and organized!! I finally have all the answers on this subject in one spot!!
The Peasantry had simple homes and Beautiful Churches.
The Bourgeoisie had simple Churches and Beautiful homes.
Where is your Treasure?
There your Heart will be.
The background of yours is fancy father.. 😅
Exactly. Fantastic even. Whimsical, one may say.
Thank you for the spoiler about Indiana jones movie, now i have to go and watch😃☦️
Right to target. Beautiful.
FYI. It seems I have to resubscribe every time Fr. Posts a new video. In response to wasting money on ornate Churches. How many more people would be poor and hungry without the economics of the Church which I trust, typically. Government taking over the role to care for the poor, God Forgive Me, always makes me hesitate but doesn’t always prevent me from assisting the stranger who seems in need because I don’t know if I’ll help or provide that person with the means to purchase that fatal overdose of whatever. Fr. Bless.
Whenever someone flippantly quips, "that should be sold and the money given to the poor", I always think - why not just say that directly to the every person you would have sold it to?
I have the opposite complaint against protestantism. Protestant churches look like corridors and I keep hearing I love Jesus and I love Mary, as if they were your friends. This seems to me too little for God and in fact disrespectful. When an Orthodox speaks of Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Mary we always say Jesus Christ or Christ, and Allsaint (Panagía) or Godbearer (Theotókos), never just Jesus and Mary.
Amen not a rock and roll concert. i keep saying when people are looking for God as far as my experience has taught me they want to see something different than the world
As a Catholic I obviously side with the ornate view, but it seems to me to be a question of mindset. A Protestant could use the maxim “if it was good enough for Jesus it it’s good enough for me” and view all the gold and incense as excessive. After all, the Lord had donations to live and give to the poor, perhaps He could have given less and saved up more for ornaments. At the same time, if our maxim is “give your best to God” then we should make things ornate and perhaps we aren’t doing enough for God. For example, the secular buildings shouldn’t outshine the beauty of the city’s cathedral
Art is an expression of the holy, of God. Artists are inspired by God and are vessels for beauty. That's why it's so personal.
Speaking along those lines, I have a stylistic question about Orthodox iconography continuing the two-dimentional style, even today. My husband, who was raised in the Roman Catholic tradition, loves the art it encourages. Michelangelo, Caravaggio, Rubens, Vermeer, Mexican Retablo folk art... such a variety and individual. The art in the Orthodox Churches I've seen seem to choose that 2D style. Just curious about that, thank you.
I won’t try to answer because it’s very involved but I see no one has responded. I’m a trained musician both in & out of church and know a bit about the history & development of the arts. Let me just say that art as such came to have a very different role in iconography. There are many books, journals and podcast dealing with this to address your question deeply. You might begin with Jonathan Pageau’s work (mainly podcasts & lectures) and the Orthodox Arts Journal. These will lead you to relevant books. Also, time spent in liturgical worship in an Orthodox Church will answer questions experientially. Suffice it to say that icons are not merely portraits or decoration.
@@traceyedson9652 Thank you, Tracey. Yes, I'll have to look into it more. Icons are not merely portraits or decoration in the Catholic church, either. It's something they have in common but differ stylistically. Nothing wrong with that. :-) Cheers.
Middle Earth....!
I haven't been inside, but the local Orthodox church is a building an out building , a trailer type building. I guess you have to start somewhere
It’s a mission church and I’m sure it’s very cozy and beautiful inside. No matter what the outside looks like, it will have all the right elements. Come and see.
I am also Orthodox because my religion is mixed with our culture that keeps us tigether and I like it compared to the new relugions like pentecostal followers which are destructive
There is a big difference between consumption and worship. The Protestant predicate is on consumption, not worship.
Although ornate worship is not inherently bad or idolatrous, is it necessary? Weren’t the commands that ancient Israel received included with commands for sacrifice that we no longer do because it’s accepted that all that was pointing to the cross? After all, the curtain in the tabernacle was torn at the moment of Jesus’ death signifying that there was no longer any separation between God and man as Jesus paid the price and was our intercessor. If this is true, does God still place the utmost
Importance on creating the most elaborate worship ceremony possible when it mimics pre-crucifixion ceremony?
The curtain being torn in two doesn't mean we stop worshiping God as He commanded. It's about what's in the Holy of Holies now being available to all by coming out. Now all can participate in the sacrifice which most people could only ever hear about while they stood outside the tabernacle or temple. Early Christians understood that, which is why they didn't stop worshiping with ritual.
Also, the epistle to the Hebrews interprets the curtain for us and says it’s the Lord’s flesh, His Body, which is our means to God. The ripping of it indicates His death and by it the purification of the world so communion is restored, earth can again be in-dwelt by God. Heaven remains Heaven and earth remains earth. But communion between the two is fulfilled in Christ. In Orthodox liturgy this curtain is open & closed and the priest (who represents God to the people & the people to God, in imitation of Christ), the Gospel (the verbal presence of Christ) and the Eucharist (Christ in the Bread & Wine as food) go in & out freely between heaven & earth. After the resurrection, heaven & earth will be one, earth & every person in Christ will be heaven for Christ will be all in all. That’s how I understand it.
What about the big change of no instruments? The Psalms is full of instructions to praise Him with cymbals, strings, etc., but Orthodox do not use instruments. Shouldn't that have been stated in the New Testament that God doesn't want instruments to be used anymore?
A lot of that stuff was actually happening outside the worship space, so it wasn't part of worship to begin with. What happens in the early Church, though, is that the human voice was regarded as the highest possible instrument and therefore most worthy for Christian worship.
Does that mean we should not ever use instruments even outside of the church?
@@sallylafaille7688 No. Christians throughout history have used instruments outside church but traditionally not inside.
So, Catholics added the organ after the Schism?
@@sallylafaille7688
No. Organs were added as Rome was on the road to Schism, the 8th Century is the earliest record of a Church Organ in the West.
The Schism wasn't just one event in 1054. It was almost 400 years of back and forth between Papal Supremacists and Orthodox in the West culminating in the 1054 Schism between Rome and Constantinople, and then when Rome Dogmatised the Hypostatic Procession of the Holy Spirit from the Son in the 13th Century it was formalised.
No volume here today...
Never a good look to be sounding like Judas!
I protest the choice of the word in the title. "Fancy" is a profanation when applied to worship. The substance of the sermon I wholeheartedly agree with.
@@Lma832 Elaborate or ornate are fine. Extravagant rubs me the wrong way too.
Etymologically, it originates from "fantasy"; in the context of prayer it's a no-no in Orthodox ascetics. Other synonyms are: fantastic, capricious, whimsy; none fitting to worship.
It's akin to people saying "I am proud of my Church"; isn't pride the cardinal sin?
Fancy like Applebees?
Exactly. What's fancy about Orthodox worship? Marvelous - yes, magnificent - sure, elaborate - one can say so, but fancy?
The man fumed with rage as he observed the Orthodox parish, with its beauty, its icons, its sophisticated liturgy. "What's with all the idolatry here?! We could sell these and give the money we raise to the poor!" Now he said this not because he had any great love for the poor, but because he was Scots-Irish from rural Tennessee, and he resented and envied the high culture because his people were terrible at creating high culture.
i am an Appalachian Scot from East Tennessee and an Orthodox Christian.
who are you?
@@thedreadtyger Someone who's very happy that you're Orthodox
I hear a lot of what you're saying on this but one thing I don't see the best argument for is why we switched to Sunday sabbath instead of Saturday without a commandment from Christ- I know he came back that day but why change to that day?
From Father Lawrence Farley, on his blog "No Other Foundation":
"The eighth day is the day of eternity, the day out of time. Regardless of the Beatles’ song about eight days a week, there are not eight days in a week, but only seven. After the seventh day, we start counting again at one. There is no eighth day of the week. Except that in Christ, there is. Sunday is not only the first day of the week, but (if you do keep counting), the eighth day. Sunday is the day when eternity intersects with time, when the Kingdom breaks into this age. When we stand before Christ on Sunday at the Eucharist as part of His Body, we experience the Kingdom of God, and a foretaste of the age to come. That is why the early Christians called that day not “Sunday”, but “the Lord’s Day”."
(Acts 20, 7) "Now ON THE FIRST DAY of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread..."
(1 Cor 16, 2) "ON THE FIRST DAY of the week let each one of you lay something aside..."
We did not. Saturday still is, and always was, celebrated in the Orthodox Church in a special way. Fasting is canonically prohibited on a Saturday, save for the Great Saturday before Pascha.
I was told (by a RC priest of all things - though an Orthodox sympathizer) that celebration of the Eucharist - which is a thanksgiving sacrifice - on a Sunday rather than Saturday originated with the very first Christians, who were predominantly observant Jews and followers of the Mosaic law; which sacrifice would not be proper during the day of rest. (That part has changed since, we do celebrate Eucharist any day of the week - mostly Sundays, but Saturdays are quite common.)
Love Men MORE than God.
The Father of Social Justice: Judas?
You justifing golden palaces and lavish spending by bring up Judas is a false argument and you know it.
For everything in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life-comes not from the Father but from the world.
Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, “Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.”
Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.
“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
Who are you to judge sins and say that every Christian in the world who has ornate worship is greedy and lustful? Learn humility for without it one cannot pick up their cross and follow Christ. Also did you listen to the whole video or comment once he spoke about Judas?
The grandeur of God should be expressed in the Churches by its architecture and furnishings. When I enter my Byzantine Church, with its Iconastas, all around me, I can not help but feel the beauty and wonder of my God.
People have not read the old Testament to find out how rich in gold and silver, etc. was the temple of God. Lack of knowledge is the greatest reason for people to protest, condemn and complain. So, we must pray for our brothers and sisters to know the truth. And pray for them to read their Bibles, especially starting with the Old Testament in order to understand the New Testament.
God bless and thank you ☦️☦️
In America in particular, great many Orthodox churches were built by poor immigrants. Many Orthodox priests to this day do not get any salary whatsoever and live in poverty (shame on us the Orthodox lay people.) I recall collection in our church for a surgery for a bishop who fell from a ladder and hurt his back; he had no medical insurance.
You must have never seen that poor widow who brought her last two mites to church treasury. I am sorry for you.