Thanks! Great wisdom from the front line battle trenches. Now I am thinking about heat pump window units for a rental. We did heat pump water and air for our home in San Francisco. At work I have been involved with permit required facility renovation, mold, and water intrusion. Your guest nailed the critical lessons learned and the dont freak out advice was beyond words valuable.
I enjoyed the podcast and agree with Tom’s down to earth approach! It’s great that you are able to tap into such leadership. I also enjoyed the car model collection on the shelves in the background; Gullwing 300SL to early 50s Chevy, Packard? etc. to slightly later Edsel, Thunderbird, VW Van, Cadillac , Studebaker Avanti, Mustang, Mini and more!
Looking forward to seeing similar heat pumps available to the general market. NYC housing has a very tough nut to crack and are taking a great approach that could help many others! ... Now to get these units available at Home Depot and Lowe's for the 'rest of us'.
The specific products that seem to match the discussion could come from Midea or "Gradient Comfort". I've heard numerous podcast episodes from a representative of the latter. I think Midea is pretty established, and just rolling out this type of product, calling them: Packaged Window Heat Pump (PWHP). You can see clunkier form factor Mideas sold at Home Depot labelled "Air Conditioner with Heat", but I don't know if that's just their idea for marketing something that is a heat pump or what? Gradient Comfort is more of a start-up, and I think these are the only products they are offering. There might just be one or two products available, the first being for warmer climates, and second they dub as "All Weather".
Matt, could you do research to see if these in-window heat pumps come in an in-wall version? I live in a townhouse with in-wall AC units that I would like to switch over to in-wall, inverter heat pumps. This would be a boon to me and many people who live in similar units. Thanks!
So your "In Wall" unit, is that a PTAC? Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner? I worked with 75 Amana heat pumps in a retirement center in Lake Oswego Oregon. So lowest possible temperature is normally about 20F. They used only heat pumps in each unit, no AC only units. They all had a 3 KW electric heater that will run when it is below 38F outside. This is because they did not have a defrost system, and would not allow the fan to run if the outdoor coil built up any ice on it. The Midea units are not that type of heat pump that switches to electric heaters at a 38F temperature. The Midea units actually work well at 5F in the heat pump mode. Check with Midea, they might be making a PTAC unit now. For those who do not know, a PTAC is a standard size through the wall unit, about 42" wide and 16" tall. So many manufactures make a PTAC unit the same size, so they can all use the same size wall opening. Carrier, LG, Amana, and a couple other makers build these units, that are very popular in lower cost hotels. It is very easy for the maintenance staff to change out a PTAC with a working unit with minimal time - about 15 minutes from knocking on the door to walking away with the not working unit.
I just don't get the resistance to heat pumps. I've run one in my personal house since 2008. It coveres the heating requirements to about 18F. From there the backup heat comes on. We needed equipment for cooling anyway. There's not a whole lot of additional parts to make an ac a hp. As a side note on steam heating control... Individual steam control is not that complicated. If a building has issues, it's from a lack of effort on the owners part. I've personally installed the automation systems to manage individual steam fan coil units in hospital rooms with individual thermostats. It just a steam rated modulating valve like you would do for controlling hot water flow in a hydronic system.
Thanks for another great podcast. I'm in Sydney, Australia, and in a 12 unit (apartment) block, built in the 1970's. Our central gas hot water system was reaching end of life. The quote to replace this was over AU$30k. We ended up replacing this with a dual (Japanese compressor) Reclaim brand CO2 refrigerant system (400 litre storage tank on each, and a 50 litre mixer tank), with a COP up to 6. The cost was AU$16k and with state and federal rebates, about $AU11k. After four months the running cost per week (at 34c per kWh) is average AU$35 (divided . Each of the 12 units were paying AU$40 - 70 per month to gas retailer previously, which involved a hot water meter on each unit, measuring litres, and the gas distributor magic conversion factors. Cheers.
The main problem we face in getting more people to switch to heat pumps is that there is no good economic argument for doing so. Typically the cost of burning fossil fuel in a furnace is fairly similar to the cost of the electricity consumed by the heat pump. Even though we are consuming less "energy", that does not necessarily translate to lower utility costs. So to really make this work, electricity has to be made significantly cheaper. This is true across the board, whether you live in a state with high electricity prices (will tend to also have high fossil fuel costs), or a state with low electricity prices (will tend to also have low fossil fuel costs). Theoretically as electricity consumption goes up, the cost per $/kWh goes down. In most places in the U.S., in fact, what you are mostly paying for is the infrastructure transporting the power to your home, which is why electricity bills are so similar even when one state is charging $0.50/kWh (whos population doesn't consume much electricity) and another might only be charging $0.09/kWh (whos population does). The generation of the electricity itself is only a small part of that cost. However, the political structures associated with electricity in America make it difficult to ensure that this dynamic will hold across a major expansion. Tax credits and government rebates on equipment got us to where we are now, but they can't really overcome the lack of an economic argument to make people really want to switch. If electrification is the goal, then the real focus has to be on making electricity cheaper. -Matt
New technologies never appear fully formed with the best performance and lowest price they eventually achieve. If everyone were to wait for that there would be no economic reason to invest in the technology. You have to start somewhere. Some people say they’re waiting for an EV with 500 miles of range that costs under $20K. I am waiting for a gas car that gets 100 mpg and that I can refuel at home.
As for complexity on the heat pumps, the temperature difference ("lift") for the compressor is significantly higher when heating which does add cost (not to mention operating more efficiently than a traditional window AC unit).
Good question. I live in Manhattan in a multi-unit building. Currently, tenants buy their own A/C units. Put them in their windows, plug them in and they can cool their apartment from May through September. This may or may not answer your question? In buildings w/o in-wall A/C units installed at the time of construction or a central, ducted HVAC system, it is individual A/Cs installed in a window by the individual party.
I'm in Albuquerque, and the HVAC businesses here are marketing refrigerated air conditioning to replace your stinky swamp cooler that doesn't work during the monsoon. AND!!! - they'll throw in a free gas furnace!!! 😍 Low-moderate income people in small homes could probably get two or three of these units and get by just fine. Use the savings to buy a big battery and or a little solar array.
My understanding is the the steam heat buildings in NYC were originally DESIGNED to be heated with the windows open, because there was a big push at the time to allow fresh air into the apartment rooms. I think a lot of this was a recognition that the combustion products from cooking were bad to breathe, and a kind of general health from nature POV at the time. I suspect this is less of an issue with many modern apartments that use electricity for heating, but even then there can be an issue with respiratory CO2 buildup that has to be dealt with. Do these new heat pump units address these issues?
I wanted to know about the noise level compared to the traditional model and what kind of noise pollution to expect from a large array of these window units running simultaneously.
In post-communist EU, city steam central heating, each radiator got upgradet with thermostat valve years ago. Yet another example how Europe is more into energy conservation in comparison with USA :D
I have no problem with heat pumps. I installed 21 solar panels and fully electrified my AZ house heating and cooling, and my pool heating way back in 2015 before it was fashionable. They do save money and energy. I do have a problem however, with blaming hurricanes and sea level rise on climate change. Per the IPCC itself, there is zero evidence that hurricanes are getting more frequent or more intense, and we have good data going back to 1900. Regarding sea level, it started rising when the glaciers started retreatingand we have data going back to the early 1800s. when the first tide gauges were installed in rivers to help ships navigate. The rate of rise fluctuates between 2 and 3 mm/y and there is no evidence it is getting worse. Let's follow the real science and quit the scaremongering. Heat pumps can be justified with real data.
Thanks! Great wisdom from the front line battle trenches. Now I am thinking about heat pump window units for a rental. We did heat pump water and air for our home in San Francisco. At work I have been involved with permit required facility renovation, mold, and water intrusion. Your guest nailed the critical lessons learned and the dont freak out advice was beyond words valuable.
So glad you found the interview useful. Thanks for the support!
When discussing heat pumps, let's hear more about those that use CO2 as a refrigerant and atain a COP as high as 5, I belive.
I enjoyed the podcast and agree with Tom’s down to earth approach! It’s great that you are able to tap into such leadership. I also enjoyed the car model collection on the shelves in the background; Gullwing 300SL to early 50s Chevy, Packard? etc. to slightly later Edsel, Thunderbird, VW Van, Cadillac , Studebaker Avanti, Mustang, Mini and more!
Looking forward to seeing similar heat pumps available to the general market. NYC housing has a very tough nut to crack and are taking a great approach that could help many others! ... Now to get these units available at Home Depot and Lowe's for the 'rest of us'.
The specific products that seem to match the discussion could come from Midea or "Gradient Comfort". I've heard numerous podcast episodes from a representative of the latter.
I think Midea is pretty established, and just rolling out this type of product, calling them: Packaged Window Heat Pump (PWHP). You can see clunkier form factor Mideas sold at Home Depot labelled "Air Conditioner with Heat", but I don't know if that's just their idea for marketing something that is a heat pump or what?
Gradient Comfort is more of a start-up, and I think these are the only products they are offering. There might just be one or two products available, the first being for warmer climates, and second they dub as "All Weather".
Matt, could you do research to see if these in-window heat pumps come in an in-wall version? I live in a townhouse with in-wall AC units that I would like to switch over to in-wall, inverter heat pumps. This would be a boon to me and many people who live in similar units. Thanks!
So your "In Wall" unit, is that a PTAC? Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner? I worked with 75 Amana heat pumps in a retirement center in Lake Oswego Oregon. So lowest possible temperature is normally about 20F. They used only heat pumps in each unit, no AC only units. They all had a 3 KW electric heater that will run when it is below 38F outside. This is because they did not have a defrost system, and would not allow the fan to run if the outdoor coil built up any ice on it.
The Midea units are not that type of heat pump that switches to electric heaters at a 38F temperature. The Midea units actually work well at 5F in the heat pump mode. Check with Midea, they might be making a PTAC unit now.
For those who do not know, a PTAC is a standard size through the wall unit, about 42" wide and 16" tall. So many manufactures make a PTAC unit the same size, so they can all use the same size wall opening. Carrier, LG, Amana, and a couple other makers build these units, that are very popular in lower cost hotels. It is very easy for the maintenance staff to change out a PTAC with a working unit with minimal time - about 15 minutes from knocking on the door to walking away with the not working unit.
I just don't get the resistance to heat pumps. I've run one in my personal house since 2008. It coveres the heating requirements to about 18F. From there the backup heat comes on. We needed equipment for cooling anyway. There's not a whole lot of additional parts to make an ac a hp.
As a side note on steam heating control...
Individual steam control is not that complicated. If a building has issues, it's from a lack of effort on the owners part. I've personally installed the automation systems to manage individual steam fan coil units in hospital rooms with individual thermostats. It just a steam rated modulating valve like you would do for controlling hot water flow in a hydronic system.
Thanks for another great podcast. I'm in Sydney, Australia, and in a 12 unit (apartment) block, built in the 1970's. Our central gas hot water system was reaching end of life. The quote to replace this was over AU$30k. We ended up replacing this with a dual (Japanese compressor) Reclaim brand CO2 refrigerant system (400 litre storage tank on each, and a 50 litre mixer tank), with a COP up to 6. The cost was AU$16k and with state and federal rebates, about $AU11k. After four months the running cost per week (at 34c per kWh) is average AU$35 (divided . Each of the 12 units were paying AU$40 - 70 per month to gas retailer previously, which involved a hot water meter on each unit, measuring litres, and the gas distributor magic conversion factors. Cheers.
The main problem we face in getting more people to switch to heat pumps is that there is no good economic argument for doing so. Typically the cost of burning fossil fuel in a furnace is fairly similar to the cost of the electricity consumed by the heat pump. Even though we are consuming less "energy", that does not necessarily translate to lower utility costs. So to really make this work, electricity has to be made significantly cheaper. This is true across the board, whether you live in a state with high electricity prices (will tend to also have high fossil fuel costs), or a state with low electricity prices (will tend to also have low fossil fuel costs).
Theoretically as electricity consumption goes up, the cost per $/kWh goes down. In most places in the U.S., in fact, what you are mostly paying for is the infrastructure transporting the power to your home, which is why electricity bills are so similar even when one state is charging $0.50/kWh (whos population doesn't consume much electricity) and another might only be charging $0.09/kWh (whos population does).
The generation of the electricity itself is only a small part of that cost. However, the political structures associated with electricity in America make it difficult to ensure that this dynamic will hold across a major expansion.
Tax credits and government rebates on equipment got us to where we are now, but they can't really overcome the lack of an economic argument to make people really want to switch. If electrification is the goal, then the real focus has to be on making electricity cheaper.
-Matt
New technologies never appear fully formed with the best performance and lowest price they eventually achieve. If everyone were to wait for that there would be no economic reason to invest in the technology. You have to start somewhere. Some people say they’re waiting for an EV with 500 miles of range that costs under $20K. I am waiting for a gas car that gets 100 mpg and that I can refuel at home.
As for complexity on the heat pumps, the temperature difference ("lift") for the compressor is significantly higher when heating which does add cost (not to mention operating more efficiently than a traditional window AC unit).
The thing about heat pumps is that they are, besides heating units, also the airconditioner. How are these NYC housing units being cooled?
Good question. I live in Manhattan in a multi-unit building. Currently, tenants buy their own A/C units. Put them in their windows, plug them in and they can cool their apartment from May through September. This may or may not answer your question? In buildings w/o in-wall A/C units installed at the time of construction or a central, ducted HVAC system, it is individual A/Cs installed in a window by the individual party.
I'm in Albuquerque, and the HVAC businesses here are marketing refrigerated air conditioning to replace your stinky swamp cooler that doesn't work during the monsoon. AND!!! - they'll throw in a free gas furnace!!! 😍
Low-moderate income people in small homes could probably get two or three of these units and get by just fine. Use the savings to buy a big battery and or a little solar array.
Thank you for a good positive talk, we have a hot water heat pump drop our power bill by a third
My understanding is the the steam heat buildings in NYC were originally DESIGNED to be heated with the windows open, because there was a big push at the time to allow fresh air into the apartment rooms. I think a lot of this was a recognition that the combustion products from cooking were bad to breathe, and a kind of general health from nature POV at the time.
I suspect this is less of an issue with many modern apartments that use electricity for heating, but even then there can be an issue with respiratory CO2 buildup that has to be dealt with.
Do these new heat pump units address these issues?
Octovalve Heat pump for moving heat/cold between up to 4 areas. 1) inside 2) outside 3) storage 4) other like roof or another inside room
I wanted to know about the noise level compared to the traditional model and what kind of noise pollution to expect from a large array of these window units running simultaneously.
The cost shift to renters is a nonstarter.
I was curious what the solution is for a room without a window, most likely on the inside of a house or building.
Afaik most states won't allow such a space to be rented out as living space.
If you're in such a situation, your options are certainly more limited.
@@priestesslucy I'm not in that situation. I was just wondering how they would tackle a situation with no window being present or convenient to use.
Florida didnt seem to concerned about climate :\
Here in San Francisco we are renters in section 8 housing so can’t modify the window with a heat pump
I would like a Kensa style heat but air to air
The exhaust hose replaced the screen in a window that opens from the side
How much it is each
In post-communist EU, city steam central heating, each radiator got upgradet with thermostat valve years ago.
Yet another example how Europe is more into energy conservation in comparison with USA :D
Pitty you couldn't put up some pictures sketches, circuits of the system you were talking about
Why can’t they just make a retrofit for your home furnace and AC?
I have no problem with heat pumps. I installed 21 solar panels and fully electrified my AZ house heating and cooling, and my pool heating way back in 2015 before it was fashionable. They do save money and energy. I do have a problem however, with blaming hurricanes and sea level rise on climate change. Per the IPCC itself, there is zero evidence that hurricanes are getting more frequent or more intense, and we have good data going back to 1900. Regarding sea level, it started rising when the glaciers started retreatingand we have data going back to the early 1800s. when the first tide gauges were installed in rivers to help ships navigate. The rate of rise fluctuates between 2 and 3 mm/y and there is no evidence it is getting worse. Let's follow the real science and quit the scaremongering. Heat pumps can be justified with real data.
Here Here!!
Was a great presentation, but I fear he was “Preaching to the choir” when talking to this audience.
Global warming lost the election, big business and politicians say there's no such thing as global warming
so why worry.