Stop wasting money on Phono Cartridges: An Overview
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- How much did you spend for the Turntable? How much did you pay for a Cartridge? More is better right? Here's the easy lesson on how to continue doing wrong, and how you can quickly get it right and help others who continue to easily get it wrong. We see this over and over, every day.
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#turntable #cartridge #phonograph #phono #turntables #audiophile #hifi #hifiaudio #homeaudio #audioreview #stereophile #vinylcommunity #vinyl #vinylrecords #phono-cartridge
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When I first met you nearly 20 years ago now, that is about the first lesson you gave me. Then, I bought a Rega P2 with a $98 Grado Red cartridge. I then upgraded to the Nottingham Horizon SE which you had a Benz Silver cartridge on that was about 1/3 the cost of the table, a little more than the 5 to one ratio of the Rega but sounded excellent. You know the table and cart that I just bought. The cart is about 1/5 the cost of the table. Everyone who has heard the combination has absolutely raved about the cartridge. I think it proves your point that they believe the cartridge sounds as good as it does because the table and arm help it to sound the best that it can sound. Thanks for the CLEs in Turntableology.
Glad to hear from you and remembrances of past efforts. A lot of folks have given me crap over the years about my views on turntables and yet, I have yet to have anyone demonstrate to me otherwise. Then, there are the whispers I get to read that I enjoy reading. I am rather reminded of a quote from George Burns in the 1980s. "If you hang around long enough, you become new again."
This has been very helpful ❤
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to the channel. There are over 180 other videos to enjoy as well. Please tell others about this site and maybe they too will find something useful.
What an eye-opening video! Everything you say makes perfect sense. If you don't have the proper foundation everything spent will default to the lowest component.
The other difficult part when heritage dealers face the flood gates of distribution is that the quality of their demonstrations are often poor leading customers to think lowly of the product itself. Then, if I try to present it, I am shut down almost immediately. I have had that experience too many times.
Thank you for taking the time to add you comment to this video and my channel. Enjoy looking through my other 175 videos and tell others about them. Always delighted to get more subscribers.
I bought a new tonearms for my fully KAB upgraded and modified SL1200 M3D. The bearings were shot on my old one. Before installing the new one, I rewired it with Cardas wires. It wasn’t a bid deal.
I run either my DL103r or Nagaoka MP-200 cart, with a Tavish phono stage, but have a cartridge collection of around 30 of em all mounted to headshells. Besides records, carts are a fun hobby to me. Nothing over $1,000 or so. The headshell is of course removable.
I don’t believe I am an idiot for doing any of this, but you apparently think differently….
I am merely explaining the risks. If you want to experiment and enjoy the hobby, then it's your money and records. You are always free to whatever you wish.
@@audibleeleganceinc Yeah, I know, man. I was just being a bit snarky and joking around. That’s the problem with comments sometimes, is that the inflection is unfortunately lost. I enjoy hearing your point of view.
@@NickP333 Yes, that is really the problem with text type messages. Not only are the inflections lost but you can not see the face of the person. Both delivery messages. That's why so many youngsters get into trouble with the internet. A 58 year old guy would never net a young girl. Then, on some, even with videos, humor is lost as well. I try to spice my videos with a bit of that here and there.
By the way, the videos are shot 50's style. There are no scripts, teleprompters, or retakes unless I catch myself saying something either unclear or, once in a while, simply stupid. So, my early ones which are being repeated right now show how awkward I was at doing them with all the UMMMMs which I caught hell for and rightly so.
We are doing a lot of reissues right now as all my attention is towards my wife who now has been in the Cleveland Clinic Cardiac ICU for 115 days hoping for a 2nd heart transplant as the first heart is now failing after 4 very difficult years. I spend much of my time traveling from Virginia where I live to there while also maintaining her horse farm. So, when you hear UMMMs, well, those are early ones.
@@audibleeleganceincHey, Lou. I unfortunately missed seeing this comment of yours. Audio is of course mostly a hobby, and it’s family and friends that truly matter. I am so sorry to hear about your wife, Lou. I mean that. Truly. What a terrible situation to be in. I very sincerely hope she receives the care she needs. I will say a prayer for her, which I already did, but will do more. I’ve seen the power of prayer work. In fact, I’ve witnessed and experienced some unexplainable things throughout my life that I don’t really share with anyone in fear of people thinking I’m nuts and getting locked up. God bless, Lou. 🙏🎶💜
@@NickP333 She received her second heart. Please see my observations on our website under Blog for September. She just got moved out of ICU and into a step-down unit where she will be for a couple more weeks, I suspect. Hopefully, nothing goes astray.
Yeah you're definitely right on this one and this really needs to be said more often!
Especially with all the quality issues of new records these days, that "bad details retrieval" can definitely be an issue... the more revealing a cartridge is, the more you come to the conclusion that record pressing quality has gone massively downhill since the vinyl revival started!
I think the best price ratio is somewhere around 2/3 for turntable/arm and 1/3 cartridge, so the cartridge about half the price of the complete turntable with arm included.
Unless you're running an aftermarket tonearm that's purchased during or post-covid, because those have skyrocketed in price and have even outpaced the price increases of anything else in HiFi.
So those aftermarket tonearms are overpriced and because of that, their price can't be reliably used as a guideline.
I mounted a $700 Ortofon 2M Black shibata stylus cart on a Rega P6, they work fabulously together and my vinyl-to-computer rips underscore the clarity and musicality I'm getting.
BUT this turntable is only twice the cost of the cartridge, and I would do it all over again too.
Thomas, it was a fine choice. Keep in mind that I have to consider the world market and there's lots of folks who put $300 to $400 cartridges (and even more) on tables not worth $150. The Rega P6 is a quality turntable and it can support your purchase.
Thanks for the time to write your comment. Rest assured, you are quite fine. Now a $600 cartridge on a P1 would be an entirely different matter. See the picture?
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the thumbs up but I did not need outside validation on this upgrade, LOL!
Ha, you got another thumbs up!@@thomosburn8740
I agree with everything I thought while watching this. Soundsmith.
Thank you for your comment and understanding. It is a miracle in its own right but still not an easy path.
She has now has been in the Cleveland Clinic for over 100 days, most of which has been in the Cardiac ICU. There have been repeated issues from infections to the loss of access to her veins for medication. We have been waiting 3 weeks for a special surgeon to do a procedure (he had a family emergency in India and we completely understand). He is, in short, he's the A squad. They did not want to risk her to others who were not as skilled. That is now scheduled for Wednesday. I have a farm with livestock to prepare so I can be there as it is not without substantial risks. As for the transplant itself with all the limitations due to anti-bodies, we wait. It is, in a nutshell, a race against time between heart failure and transplant.
Excellent video; it clearly explains what I recently told (in a comment) to someone who "advises" on the opposite of what you say here...
Cheers!
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to the video. I really do appreciate the effort.
Very sensible advice. Although I have a modern Linn Sondek I only use the Adikt MM cartridge on it because as you said it needs the stylus replacing every year due to wear and the cost does build up over time. On my other turntables I use MM as well but something not as expensive such as a Linn K9 which takes ATVM95 stylus’s which are very adequate for the table/arm combination.
Thank you for taking the time to contribute to our channel. I do try to be sensible about things in a pretty non-sensible world of which this is a very small part.
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Thank you, again.
It’s not so much about matching price ratios, it’s more about about synergy between devices.
First off, thank you for a simple yet well considered comment. I appreciate the effort to comment.
Well, certainly having the right mechanical match between arm and cartridge is essential. This often comes into play with tonearms that are separately purchased. That said, most cartridges that are purchased are going on some OEM mass produced tonearm on a similarly produced turntable and usually with a removeable headshell. For example, a $600 phono cartridge on a 50 year old Technics SL-1500 is a terrible waste of money. Sadly, some hot review comes out on a cartridge and suddenly everyone has to have one regardless of the facts. I've seen this time and time again.
@@audibleeleganceinc Thanks for the awesome response. I don’t know a lot about turntables. Logically thinking, I would think that the main bearing needs to have very smooth operation in order to not transmit vibrations, the platter would need to be relatively heavy in order to maintain a proper and exact rpm with a great motor behind it, the vinyl would need to be isolated from the platter with a rubber or cork mat to stop transferring of vibrations.
After that is all done, I’m thinking the tonearm would need to dampen vibrations quickly, the wiring should be top grade , and the cartridge should be of highest quality.
Lastly, the electrical and magnetic fields should not interfere from the motor and signal from the cartridge.
Is that what makes for a great sounding vinyl rig?
In many ways, you are correct. However, I have seen some very clever ways around various issues. Take, for example, the use of a magnetically lifted platter system where there is no contact between the main bearing and what is called a thrust plate. Then it is reduced to side wall friction which traditional designs also have.
As for tonearms, some tables follow the damping approach while others redirect that vibration energy away to another spot.
You are spot on about magnetic interference as for years we could not mount cartridges like Grado on Technics direct drive tables without it gloriously humming along as you got near the motor.
You also have variations between suspended tables and those of solid plinths with the traditional thinking that sprung was better. Well, maybe is my answer and my two best turntables have no suspension at all. Most that do have suspension are a mess or have "pretend" suspensions. Linn is quite correct about tuning and to my horror, I have come to realize that older Thorens turntables are not "turn-key at all" but also must be tuned. But nobody pays attention to that with them.
So, you have a good basic understanding of tables but there are also different approaches. The best thing to do is to listen to it and decide whether or not it actually plays music musically correct. I have done videos on that as well as I will pick fights with audiophiles who look for tonal qualities and pay no attention to the music itself.
@@audibleeleganceincThank you so very much for your interesting information. I appreciate you taking the time to share your wisdom and knowledge and experience with me.
You are correct, the best way to determine what piece of equipment to purchase, is by listening and trusting our ears.
In theory, sometimes a piece of gear might ( on paper ), be better or even have better specifications, but I’ve learned that over the years, sometimes in practice, real world listening experiences tell me something different. 😊
I’ve been advising many folks in the hi-fi group I belong to on their journey into spinning records. “Records” ought to give you some idea of my age!
I agree with Lou here, it’s about understanding the design philosophy being pursued by the manufacturer. Some go the route of mass loading, making everything extremely heavy in order to make it hard for vibrations to agitate the system. Others, like Rega, go in exactly the opposite direction, with each successive model using more exotic materials to reduce weight, increase rigidity and increase natural resonance damping properties.
Finally, there is the closed loop suspended sub-chassis designs, such as Linn. The point in these is to isolate the external vibrations through the tuned suspension, but then ensure that any vibration that is present in one part of the suspended sub-chassis, is present throughout, meaning zero relative movement between the cartridge and the record surface. In this instance, the bearings in the platter and arm are not in fact insulating the system from vibration but transmitting it to ensure it is consistent throughout.
Many people buy modifications to their turntables from companies that take no account of the design philosophy that the original manufacturer was pursuing. Virtually every so called upgrade I’ve seen for a Rega turntable falls into this category, from alternative sub-platters with spindles made of soft metal, to great lumps of steel plonked on the record to ‘clamp’ it down.
I met Roy Gandy in Bristol last weekend and he is a man who knows exactly what he is doing. My choice is a Linn, however I also have a Rega with a MM cartridge which I use to test the phono stages of the amps I restore.
Anyway, to the point of your video, I couldn’t agree more. I’ve just landed a new Goldring E3 for my son-in-law and it will make a fantastic upgrade for the Rega Carbon cartridge on his P1. But that’s as far as he should go in my view. I’ve already sourced a genuine P3 glass platter, which made a big difference to the already fine standard platter.
Im of the same opinion that
The table and tonearm are
Are more important then the cartridge
I use a at95e on my rega planer 2
And feel no desire upgrade the cartridge
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So if you have $1500 turntable whatbus reasonable range for price of cartridge,?
Adrian, please tell me about your turntable. The brand and if the arm was purchased separately, the brand of it. That will allow me to google your turntable and read about it. Otherwise, I am only guessing which is not the way to do things. It is likely that you have a better table than many of the budget ones offered today. So, let's start with that information. Thank you for taking the time to ask an important question for others to follow.
Nice video. What do you think about putting a Ortofon Cadenza Blue MC on a P6 or a Project Classic Evo? Right now they are equipped with an Exact MM and Quintet Red MC, respectively. Thank you.
An honest and sincere question. As I have no experience with the Project Classic Evo, I honestly can not comment. The Rega P6 can be purchased with an Ania moving coil so it is suitable for such cartridges. The cartridge you have suggested is, here in the states, more expensive than the table itself and that throws up a flag to me. The cartridge will work most likely although I have not done it myself. I don't know the exact results.
The reason for the hesitation is that the P6 is simply outclassed by the P8 and both turntables represent long term investments. Cartridges, on the other hand, are not. Their useful life is between 400 to 600 hours (if we are talking peak performance and no record damage) and an out of the box life of 3 to 4 years (if we are talking peak performance, again.) So, if we are talking a new turntable purchase, I would be more inclined to a P8 and a lesser cartridge. The net is greater. If you are talking about replacing an older cartridge on an existing turntable, then Ortofon may well be a good choice but how far up their line also becomes a function of the quality of the phono preamp. Keep in mind that a change over to an Ortofon from a Rega cartridge is going to require a bit of adjustment to the cartridge tags as the male pins on Ortofon cartridges are a different diameter than those on Regas.
Hopefully this gives you some guidance and some thoughts about what you might do.
Does this go in the opposite direction too? Can you put a very expensive cartridge onto an inexpensive table and not expect better results?
Well, very expensive tires will likely improve the performance of a heap of trash car. However, you will not get the total benefit out of the cost of those tires. They are limited by the heap of trash. Same basic principal. It's about getting the maximum performance for the least amount of dollars, really.
So what IS a reasonable amount of money to spend these days? What is the markup? What cartridges are well made what are less well made. What manufacturers represent value for money? lots of unanswered questions. Who can you trust for advice as noone offers demo's obviously. Those in the position to shed light never ever do, all the consumer gets is 'don't do this' or 'buy this jewel at £daft, it's better than your last. Shelter were cheap in Japan before the marketing markup machine sank their claws in. Now they are _literally_ 3 to 4 times the price.
Thank you for giving me another idea for a video to everyone around the world. I hope to do it very quickly as I travel north shortly from Virginia through my store in Cincinnati to Cleveland where I will meet up with my wife who just received her 2nd heart transplant after 4 difficult years with the first one. But let me answer your question as best I can which, quite honestly, is not much.
Let me address one thing very quickly. Markup. If that changes what you buy, you are already on the wrong track. So, do you ask anyone how much money they make for everything you buy? Rather rude, actually. I guess I should start asking my customers how much money they make in order to decide what they can afford. That would send customers out the door very quickly and properly so.
As for how much to spend, well that depends upon the quality of the turntable and condition. If it is a nice turntable with a tonearm that has been ruined, then certainly nothing over $100 US. That leads to another problem as I have viewers all over the world so I have no idea what is available to them or the market prices in their country. Who can you trust? Well, I am certainly not going to vouch for anyone that I do not personally know. That includes mail order houses who has who knows what answering questions. Just press the keyboard button, make your payment, and wait at home for it to be delivered for someone to mount it without the proper guides or tools. I see those messes all the time. It's this keyboard madness which has resulted in far fewer specialists who do know what they are doing because they can not make a decent living and are tired of giving service to people who have no intention of buying it from them anyway. See my video on how to steal from a brick and mortar store.
You raise an interesting one in the concept of "value." The best answer I can give you for that one is to think about tires for your car. Some might be good value but are they appropriate? Similarly, depending upon how the cartridge is to be used or the conditions under which it will be used, the manufacturer might change. So, if one back-cues, Stanton comes to mind for their incredible durability. Others would be destroyed. You see, I have no idea how they intend to use a cartridge, what table, what condition, or even if their kids are going to use the turntable too. I have seen several great cartridges destroyed by young innocent hands.
As for demos, we offer demos on some of the cartridges we sell but not all. There are multiple reasons for this. One, it would take a lot of turntables and as a retailer, would we be rewarded with the sale or would they simply haul off and mail order it? We stopped selling multiple brands of headphones for that very reason. Two, most people recognize that how a cartridge "sounds" on one table combination might not be exactly true on another. Similar, yes, exact, likely not because the turntable and tonearm themselves contribute to what is heard. Then, simply reality is that there are far more different models of turntables out there over 50 years than there are cartridges. There are simply too many permutations and combinations. We do our best to use our knowledge and experience accumulated over time to advise on cartridge purchases AND make sure they are properly mounted with special guides and tools.
So, please understand that I am not bothered by your real frustration but I did want to take the opportunity to lay out for everyone why it is impossible to address specific needs for everyone everywhere. Oh, and let the specialist make his or her living so they will be there to answer your specific needs in the future. It's that simple. Those who offer the most knowledge and the most skill don't work for minimum wage or less.
Im a newbie, need to replace my cartridge on my Technics SL-220, any recommendations?
You have a pleasant enough belt drive table. I would not go to far in price for the cartridge and generally recommend an AudioTechnica for them. I think the Ortofons would be a bit too much for the table. Make sure you check that arm as I showed in other videos. If it is loose in the vertical or horizontal plane, the bearings are toast. In that case, you should keep the cartridge price under $50us. While we also sell Grado, I would shy away from those as you do not have the ability to adjust the Vertical Tracking Angle of the tonearm for proper set-up. Grado cartridges are fairly tall resulting in a slope towards the gimbal assembly.
Thanks for asking a fun question as I have seen many many tables over the years. Please do subscribe and tell others about this channel. We have 175 videos up currently with many more planned.
I believe I see that you are a Rega dealer... so how do you feel about the Exact MM vs the Ania Pro MC on the P6?
The P6 can, in fact, support the Ania Pro quite nicely. Given that the next step up for a better table, the P8 is quite a bit more, the Ania would be a suitable choice. Otherwise, we are stretching the budget to get to a P8 with a Exact, if we follow the hierachy. The only other element that comes into play, then, is the quality of the phono stage where some folks do not have a moving coil input.
I am not sure where you are but we do have the P6 on display with the Ania Pro
@@audibleeleganceinc Thank you for the response. That's how I landed on my P6 in the first place. I was only going to buy the P3 but once I added the outboard power/speed control and the Exact cartridge, it was only a few hundred more to get the superior plinth & subplatter on the P6. I only wish I'd known about your store before I purchased. Columbus doesn't seem to have a Rega dealer any more and I thought the closest to me was in Toledo.
Edit: You posted your second response as I was typing this. I would certainly love to hear the Ania Pro when I do come down for a visit. My Exact is only about a year old at this point but when it comes time to replace it, I'd prefer to buy local.
You are most welcome to visit anytime. If you come on a Saturday, I might be there. Otherwise, talk to Chris. @@davidtraube7921