Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps: 00:00 The Uniqueness of the New Generation 01:10 What Does a Good Childhood Look Like? 07:06 Changes in Parenting Styles 10:59 Lack of Discipline in Modern Parenting 15:16 The Importance of Risk in Play 20:47 Is the Education System Ruining Kids? 27:16 The Problem With Ideological Academia 30:45 Latest Data on Social Media’s Impact 38:47 Primary Harms of Technology on Kids 46:12 Is Social Media Use Addiction or Compulsion? 49:48 How Boys & Girls Use Technology Differently 56:46 The Male Sedation Hypothesis 1:02:37 Are Gen-Z Bothered About Status? 1:12:34 Latest Data on Female Mental Health 1:17:31 Why is Anxiety the Most Prevalent Feeling? 1:21:11 How We Solve the Teen Mental Health Crisis 1:28:04 Where to Find Jonathan
Thank you.I'm truly enjoying this simplified breakdown of the devouring mother, and why the parent must necessarily fail.. as if they succeed In protecting them from everything, they failed their child In being able to deal with anything... oxymoronical As it is it is the truth. And I appreciate it put in terms that more people will be able to digest❤
kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids........ why is everyone always talking about the friggin kids? why is it ALWAYS all about the kids!?! Geez, not everyone is a parent, or even wants to be one, but noooooo, we are all steamrolled by all the parents and wanna be parents completely OBSESSED with the kids. I'm tired of it. I don't about your kids.
@@peterbelanger4094 So there's a very important reason Everybody's talking about kids.Whether you want one or not you're economic prosperity or lack of will be in their hands in your elderly age( And this extends to possibly the very salvation of your life/health. the question becomes, do you care about yourself? It is self-serving In your particular case to know what is going on with these kids, EVEN if you don't ever have children, as you will be reaping the benefits of other people's children or detriments for that matter( And you didn't have to do any of the work, all you had to do was listen to us Try making them the best We could, so they're able to manage your situation). Remember when you're in the retirement home MY children are the ones that will be taking care of you, So again the question is, do you care about yourself and would you like to have a competent person taking care of YOU When YOU Are unable to? Another plausible thought, but less directly linked To your immediate surroundings, is if these kids have no idea how this economic system we have works, they step in and destroy the economic and political structures Your life falls apart as well. Would you like your retirement to disappear everything you worked Your life to save, gone in the blink of an eye?.Whether you like kids, whether you want kids, whether you have kids doesn't matter, they will dictate the end of your life, at least the last 15 to 20 years of it. These two reasons alone are pretty good evidence of why you should want to know what's going on with these kids...
My school board is looking to ban cellphones. I listened to this podcast, shared it with my teacher; my teacher shared it with the principal; the principal shared it with the entire staff within our school. They loved it! And the solution that Jonathan Haidt presented is exactly the thing our education board needs!
It's not enough to ban phones. I didn't know this until I worked as a substitute teacher a few years back, but they now start kids on "chrome books" in kindergarten. Instead of engaging with each other and the teacher, kids are now with headphones, isolated from each other as they play computer games that are supposedly intended to teach academic skills, but really just teaching immediate gratification, as if we need more of that. I'm not sure who's more at fault, the lobbyists of Microsoft and all of the software companies, or the gullible, lazy parents who have allowed this. I've wanted to go to the school board to complain, but I know it would be fruitless. When I've brought this issue up with other parents they basically shrug their shoulders or even defend it. My fellow "conservatives" need to realize that transgenderism and women's sports is just a diversion for the real atrocities going on in schools.
Do check out the schools in the news recently in Ireland, I believe it is -- they removed all phones and saw a huge turn around and benefit (kids are much happier!). Their approach was to bring parents on board.
I love this! I am born in 1972! I was not surveilled after school, I always got out after lunch just to crack my head open by climbing on a tree. I was much more careful the next time. We did stunts, climbed on trees, jumped from high walls and sometimes someone broke something or had a bleeding face. It was pretty normal. This was waaaayy before Internet and especially before Smartphones. I am over the top grateful for this fantastic youth I had!
1962 here. I am grateful every day for my parent’s benign neglect. Lived in the country, worked hard, played in the mud, rode the horses ( when we were suppose to stick to our ponies) and learned about the seasons, where food came from and that there are trade offs, not utopia. A bubble is an unhealthy place to grow up.
@@tammys8711 Even better than me, but we speak the same language! My dad was a fisherman and where ever he went, me and a friend were with him. We played in a creek and got our asses kicked by slippery stones :) Knowing your limits is so important, a lot of youngsters never make that experience nowadays, no wonder they cannot navigate in the world.
@@jakesaul9895Spot on! I left social media altogether in 2016 and find it quite disturbing that *anyone* is still on Facepalm, Instacrap, Twatter or whatever, especially knowing what we do about these dopaminergic demons that hijack our limbic systems, mine our data, and destroy civil society and childhood. It’s a predator’s dream, basically. Hard pass on all but TH-cam, where I carefully curate what I take in (mostly old concert footage) and limit time spent.
Haidt is a legend. As a 33yr who didn't understand Gen Z culture, The Coddling of the American Mind gave me insight on why the generational changes happened. His new book was sold out at every Barnes & Nobles in the DC area this weekend! Looks like many others are realizing how informative his literature is.
Fellow DC area fan here! Just wanted to say it is nice to be reminded not everyone in the DMV is a captured anti-meritocracy layabout. There is a big difference between the population of DC proper & the more affluent suburbs. As a friend's dad once said "I didn't become a conservative until I had something worth conserving." I haven't changed much since I registered as a Democrat at 18, but they have moved so far to the authoritarian left quadrant that I am practically a republican myself now. I consider myself a pragmatic, small "l" libertarian. Anyway, greetings from Fairfax!!
Unfortunately, people being glued to tech is needed, as we’re destined to become cyborgs. I’m not joking, that will happen. Implants. I don’t like this, but it’s been our theory for a long time now.
I was waiting for you to have a conversation with Haidt for the past 2 years. I'm halfway through the Anxious Generation and looking forward to listening to this podcast. Thank you Chris for platforming this legend of a man.
@@ChrisWillx I'm a huge Haidt fan, you brought out more from him than any other interviewer I've seen. I'd watched a few episodes of yours before, but this was the one that really impressed me, you were smart enough for his academic bantor, and candid enough that he opened up on a few extra areas than usual. Well done!!
When you give your child a phone, you're not just giving them access to the internet and the whole world. You're giving the internet and the whole world access to your child.
It is called propaganda. I see parents tell children: I used to do this as a child instead now kids are taught through phones what's right and wrong and most parents would start agreeing to this!! What happened to maturely talking to kids about importance of other people and relationships, no they'll learn it from social media or bad parenting as I might say
My daughter's middle school does not allow phones to be used during the day. They have to be off and in lockers. The principal changed the whole atmosphere of the school 2 years ago with just that one rule. We don't allow social media until after high school. My now 21 year old son thanked me for keeping him off it. He only missed out on some slang words but those changed quickly so he didn't care. I'm sharing this with my friends and hoping they spend the time watching. Excellent interview! Thank you!
As a former teacher, I can confirm that this is true. I didn't let kids do risky play because it wasn't worth the bashing I'd get from irate parents or my administrators.
tomorrow i will delete my facebook account. Insta's been done already. Im done with this shit. I was one of these who didn't have a phone until 2016 and my mates said I was notoriously hard to get hold of. Im going back to those times.
I downloaded OLauncher. It's an app that makes your phone look like a dumb phone. Paired it with a greyscale background. Helps a lot! And indeed, remove instagram and facebook.
@@cinnamondan4984Does it really seem true that people need to be on social media to thrive in the modern world? He just said he’s deleting FB; he didn’t say he’s moving to the woods.
13:21 I tell my kids about once a week that life is not fair, has never been fair, and won't ever be fair, focus on what you have control of and do your best
Attention fragmentation undermines our ability to focus, our productivity, and our performance. It's not just teens who are prone to this; adults are switching (aka multitasking) and constantly getting distracted by pings from Slack DMs in order to "be on top of everything" at work. This ironically leads to spreading oneself thin and compromising quality in the name of agility and speed in the current Zeitgeist of hustle culture running on sympathetic nervous system with chronic dysregulation.
Dude, many MANY people early on thought it was a really bad idea to give your young child a tablet or phone. I think this is rewriting the past by parents with regrets, to say we thought it was a good thing. Like, maybe you have a small group of friends that thought that, but the science was skeptical very early.
The conservatives were worried, the liberals were excited, it's just the classic cycle of two types of contrary overreactions until cultural shifts hard enough that only the extreme naysayers are remembered.
This is now my favourite episode of MW. (Watched all of them) ❤️ Chris asked so many interesting questions and Jonathan was so comfortable. What a precious and important conversation.
Kids need structure. I grew up in a liberal household in the 1960's - 1970's and there were rules but not enough. Several don't (somewhat inconsistent) but no do's. So, my brother and I flew by the seat of our pants and adopted rules from other families. It left me feeling rudderless. I needed more structure.
It was TV that occupied them when at home, even back then parents were attentive. Parenting, or the lack of, is a much bigger issue than is admitted because its an uncomfortable truth. Today it is worse because the modern type of technology is at a much faster pace so there's more impact, more information but still the lack of guidance so its even easier to get lost in it all...
OMG - 15 minutes in... and I have been nodding my head in agreement for the majority of the time. I see the result of gentle-coddling parenting in my now 19-year-old stepdaughter... it's horrible. I see how her mother and father have really stunted her and any accountability for being tardy, sleeping late, wrecking her car, doing CHORES, being respectful etc. is overlooked by them. I stand back in absolute horror... smh. But, for my sanity - I've disengaged because I was viewed as old-fashioned (mind you, I'm 12 years younger than her parents). My role before disengaging was in developing her into a responsible young adult who understood the importance of volunteering, service-before-self, being accountable, learning, being curious, having manners, chores etc - this was frowned upon by her momma... so...yeah - now they have an entitled young lady who is incapable of being an adult...good luck!
I have a similar experience with my niece - we used to get along, but when she hit maturity, she started behaving in a way that is extremely entitled and bratty. I've also had to disengage because the only way I could see to serve her, was to call out her bad behavior, and that was not appreciated.
A friend of mine is a single parent of a daughter. He was really into sports and had her play hockey and soccer since she was young. I chatted with her briefly when she was 15-16. She was remarkably mature for her age.
Kids and adults are anxious today because no one spends time outside, no one learns actual skills anymore and living in concrete with traffic every where is stressful. Let’s get back to basics: animal husbandry, growing your food, kids spending the day outdoors until dinner time.
The fact that few people realize that diet has a direct correlation to our mental health astounds me. Feed us garbage foods and that's what you get....
That's a failing of parents, mainly. I always do activities and make things with my child, whereas the mother has the TV on all of the time, and is happy if my child is surfing the Internet. It's a constant battle. She's destroying our child. We're separated so I only have influence half of the time.
@@seanfrank4158😂I'll answer you too. I've taught my child to cook and enjoy good, healthy food but the mother hates cooking and often orders pizzas and kebabs. There, I've got that off my chest. 😊
Absolutely, if you can tell me how to financially survive, I say this all the time. Tried moving this way and lost my family because they love the world more than truth and peace. People think it’s crazy but I tell them, God didn’t build these cities and subdivisions, man did. The workplace is a mirror image of what these are talking about the children and why the adults are as bad shape as the kiddos. Plus the kiddos watch us more than they and we know. Someone Leads the sheep to the slaughter. Nature and things of are Gods, societies are humans and humans are stupid and proud. Been proven for thousands of years through all times and all societies.
I agree but not fully. There is good to be had in what we got. But i agree, we need skills and ways to be self sufficient, but why should I be? Thibk about it, how mich effort do i want to put in to making/growing food when I could be doing nothing? This speaks to a larger issue with tech in general. You hear about since the advent of at home devices (tvs radios) people stop going to clubs. They stop going to fairs. They stop going to community centers. People isolate *themselves* from theit communities. To top this off, the communities, instead of being diverse with thoughts and people, become homogeneous. Instead of meeting people of different walks of life and getting to know them, you only meet for a shared interest/hobby. The shared interest of the and for the "community" at large is gone. People often dont k ow or wosh to speak to their neighbors.
The vicissitudes of life include indignity, misfortune, and injustice. The more we are able to regulate our nervous system, radically accept unfairness when it's outside our sphere of influence and let go and move on, the more resilient, content and self-assured we become.
I did my own experiment snd stayed off social media for 2 weeks and my anxiety was decreased dramatically. I see the same in my child. Now, we stay away from screens with the exception of intentional use for necessity. As a parent the hardest part is being more present and creating activities and family play. People are so distracted and not living in the present. Great conversation.
Just listening to Jonathan’s book The Righteous Mind - read by him. I used to think he was somewhat mainstream but I did not appreciate how much he is top of his field. He links some of the most significant thinking of our times. I got interested in Autism, then The Red Pill idea, then Ian McGilchrist on left/right brain and the modern world, the whole woke thing, Robert Sapolsky on free will and they have common threads with Jonathan’s work. For me Jonathan nails the key concerns most clearly of those I have listened to. He has a wonderful clarity and perceptual reach and he sees the dangers of our current experiment. I really recommend people to follow his thinking.
For myself and my friends growing up “Teen” movies and shows about drama and about toxic social dynamics (ie Laguna Beach, Mean Girls, the OC etc) had a MASSIVE impact. Then magazines like Girlfriend and Dolly that on one page would talk about fashion and makeup then on the next page would be full of celebrity weight stats and “fashion faux pas” gave us another layer. THEN msn chat, MySpace and tumblr gave us access to conversation with people who benefited from our vulnerability in a way our parents had no idea about. I remember chatting in random chat rooms with men when I would have been 12 years old. My parents had no idea that was a thing let alone what I was able to hide. My ability to behave older and more mature meant my parents trusted me instead of guiding me but they didn’t realise how little an idea I had about what damage I was doing to myself. On the home computer with dial up internet.
Enjoyed listening, thank you. This is so important and needs more attention than it gets… I’m 46 and struggled with the beginning of all this anxiety of depression in my teens, the 90s, and still do. I’m also a very sensitive person… I always think how much I feel for the youth today, can just imagine growing up with the internet and social media to boot, how politics have infiltrated everything... Our rush-rush consumer society is sick, and out of tune with nature, our true nature. It’s no wonder we’re all screwed up… And unless a disaster happens, it isn’t gonna change any time soon. It’s all about Big Business, at the expense of everything else… We all just have to do the best we can, considering. It starts with us.
Wow, Chris! This dude is really interesting. I completely agree with basically all his points. I thought this was just going to be another boring Thursday. Thanks, Chris, you made my day brighter!
One of my favorite pod casters hosting one of my favorite modern intellectuals. Thank you for this stimulating conversation, Chris. Excellent questions. You did a great job making Prof. Haidt feel comfortable to expand on his opinions more deeply than I have seen in other places he's given talks. Bravo, and congratulations on your Austin shoot and your 2M sub milestone!
@@greyfoxice I think someone said that sarcasm is the reflexive emotion for when someone disagrees or doesn't like you but they can't articulate anything positive from their own to counter.
22:30 it's validating to hear this because I feel like being made to take tough classes having to do with complex math at 4yrs old in South Korea in 1994 was just not the move my parents should have made. My earliest memories are chronic stress from failing those classes, esp. with my difficulty focusing on academic studies. There were a lot of tears, sadly. Also didn't get to play a lot with kids my age.
Many young people are not learning social skills needed for interacting face to face with other humans. Interacting thru a screen is not the same as in real life.
It’s great hearing Johnathon speak, no emotional biases, with many references to real data. I like his concept of “phone-based” society. Makes a lot of sense.
My daughter turned 14 today. She doesn't have a phone, just a tablet, and we don't plan on getting her a phone for another year, most likely. It gets easier to say "No" if you make a practice of it and incentivize the phone as a privilege that must be earned with maturity and behavior expectations. Almost all her friends have phones so she does feel left out, but not to the extent that it causes her serious distress. I love Joe Rogan but he didn't think that Haidt's list of restrictions would be adopted by parents and I disagree. It is definitely possible and more parents are coming around to the dangers of letting their kids have social media. I am white-pilled on this issue. We can do it!
That's great parenting, and your daughter will thank you for it later... probably not now though, and I'll be doing the exact same thing with my own daughter
@@alexdavila1356 Good question. I have found that while she does complain about it she is not overly obsessive or distraught by her lack of a cell phone. She uses her tablet to communicate with her friends on Kids' Messenger or Roblox chats so she isn't isolated from the virtual world completely. It isn't something she fights about with us and she doesn't seem to be too emotionally distressed about it 97% of the time. Her interactions with friends at school and through chats on her tablet are already filled with enough drama (which she hates) so I think she understands that we are protecting her and are not being unfair or unreasonable. It is also pretty rough in schools now and she sees the behaviour of her peers and is turned off by it all. She is into art and making animated videos for TH-cam so we have encouraged her in this area and I think it has been enough of a distraction to keep her content for now.
Finding that point in rough playing and throwing around where my son and daughter were delirious with laughter and terror simultaneously is one of the best experiences of my life, laughing beyond the abdominal and chest pain.
I've played a lot of video games. My biggest mistake was not persevering in games I wasn't good at, save scumming until I got the perfect play, not pushing the difficulty to the highest I could try. I got used to playing it easy, and restarting anytime I wanted, which didn't help me in real life when something went sideways and I had to salvage what I can. Instead of doing my best I just crashed.
One of the best gaming experiences I ever had was playing the original Half Life for the first time on the hardest difficulty. It forced me to master the mechanics to a level I never would have otherwise, using every weapon to its max potential and memorizing enemy attacks and behavior. The sense of satisfaction when I finally made it through the whole thing was incredible, and to this day I cherish the experience. If I had just picked medium, it would have been good but just another game I think. What a terrible loss that would have been.
"Have you read a book for pleasure" They have SOOOOOOOOOO much more homework. Even if they don't have social media or are on the phone like my kid. It's all busy work when they get home. They are exhausted! I'm too exhausted because I'm having to help a tired frustrated child with the dumbest busywork you could imagine. This isn't normal.
Exercise through out the day helps with ADHD so your kids can focus better 😊 exercise in the morning is best, gets oxygen to their brains and gets the excess energy out like they would be in nature before man made school were we have to sit
I work in a high-pressure private school where we push kids hard. They have a lot of homework. And yet when you ask them to answer honestly, they will tell you they STILL spend several hours a day on their phone. Without that there'd be plenty of time for sleep and R&R.
The homework level is way out of balance. Kids need time for other responsibilities and learning beyond academic subjects. Screen time should be limited. More parents need to take charge of their children’s development instead of outsourcing it.
We didnt get dial-up internet until I was 13. My life was awseome when I lived in the world, wind in my hair flying around on my bmx bike enjoying life with good friends. My 20s was a mess, drugs, depression and self worth issues. My early 30's, I went back to being the boy that took one of the prettiest girls in school to senior prom many years ago. Old habits die hard. Preserve and foster the good things inside you, people. Ask God for forgivness and guidance. There are real God-fearing local churches around, same as 100 years ago.
Completely agree with Jonathan Haidt (as usual). Another great person to chat with on the subject of mental health in the young would be Georgia Ede, a psychiatrist. She’s easy to find on TH-cam and has recently published ‘Change your Diet, Change your Mind’.
Jonathan talks about more play.... backing off on homework in kindergarten and first grade. I went to school from 1974-1987... I never had homework at all, until I was in the FIFTH GRADE.
It’s so sad that humans have devolved to a point of not being able to face social anxiety, so much so that they are unwilling to experience normal feelings of rejection. As part of gen x, I feel so so sad for the younger generations who find normal human experience something they should avoid at all costs. You learn through your failures. Success, even in dating, is born from learning from the success and failures you have through real life interactions. So, so sad.
I've been saying this stuff about myself for years. That I didn't have a lot of friends, that I wasn't allowed outside to ride my bike around with other kids, most of my time was spent alone in my back yard or playing video games. I remember being little and going outside on my own to explore and my mom freaking out that I was gone. My dad worked 12-16 hours a day, my mom really didn't like her life at home because my dad was very verbally abusive, and I think the lack of a male role model or man she could trust in the house made her much more cautious and fearful. I remember trying to go do things on my own many times and my mom telling me no because I didn't have someone to go with me (I didn't have siblings). I'm now 28, I've constantly felt there was something wrong my whole life, I never made all that many friends, never took any risks, never had a girlfriend, never been out of my parents' house. And as I'm nearing 30, the suicidal thoughts just keep getting stronger. And I'm constantly remembering all the things I've missed, all the developmental milestones that passed me by. I terrified that I'll never recover now, especially after watching this video and Jonathan's work. I don't know what to do anymore, I don't want to live the rest of my life this way.
I’m sorry you’ve had it so rough. Sounds like you missed out on a lot. It’s never too late to grow and develop. Put yourself out there. Take the risks even though it’s uncomfortable. Show up. Try new things that are social. There’s lots of women your age who are struggling to connect as well who would welcome the chance. Take care
When I had my children, mid 80s to mid 90s, almost all women worked outside the home. I was the odd duck as a stay at home mom. So these mothers enrolled their children in all kinds of after-school activities because there was no one home for them. My children had to make dates to play with someone. There was no spontaneity. There was no, "Hey, you want to come to my house after school?" I feel bad for my kids, they had a completely different childhood than their parents, when our goal was to give them the same (or better) childhood. I see more young parents today wanting to be stay at home moms and I am glad for it.
Thank you Johnathan Haidt for your work. Great interview. Children need to spend more time outdoors in nature with other kids. Worked great for me as a child.
Chris ….thankyou and just to let you know I jumped on when you were at 250,000 subscribers as I thought you had an insightful manner and you hit upon super important themes around the health of young men and I also have a 21 year old son who is dealing with all these issues that you talk about …. In the vein of this current guest I suggest a fantastic guest is Christopher hedges to me one of the most knowledgable individuals out there over many years ..if you want to get a very educated and insightful take on many of our societal issues that you are currently delving into… we would definitely tune in as many of your audience would and individuals who may not know him would benefit hugely, I imagine….👌
I agree with pretty much everything I just listened to. One other factor that I think has played into the issues of children and teens not socializing is the cost. Everything costs way too much and there's nowhere to go for free. I think of the malls my buddies and I hung out in back in high school. They are all closed now. There's no place I can think of that kids can go and just hang out that doesn't require them to spend lots of money to be there. Think of how much more gas, car insurance, and even used cars cost now than they did a decade or two ago. So not only have we limited where these kids can go, we made it far more expensive to get there. Early on, you mentioned hobbies, which are increasingly expensive and exclusive. My dad and I were big into model trains when I was growing up (he still is) and he's repeatedly commented, showing off stuff he has now at its incredible quality and detail, but also that a single freight car now costs more than the full starter sets you used to get at Toys R Us and how if we were starting out now, we'd never have gotten into it, as it costs too much. Same with the tabletop wargaming I still do. It's an adult hobby that requires a full time income even though its ultimately playing with plastic army men. The same goes for sports. How much does it cost for a kid to play most sports now? I wonder if that also is factoring into parental risk aversion- who can afford the ER bill when your kids breaks something? Plus the fear of getting sued by other parents because your little King Arthur bonked their little Mordred over the dome a little hard with their stick sword. Or that State taking your children away for the same reason. By today's standards, I would have been deemed far too free range and DSS/DYS would have definitely been contacting my parents if not taking me away entirely.
An hour in, will definitely be sharing with my family and friends with kids. Its a must watch to help the parents (especially if they're older) understand the dynamics between social media and children.
Chris has been a better podcaster for 2+ years now. Joe was great for a long time and he’s a great man, but Chris is smarter, more clever, more self aware, much funnier in real-time conversation, brings on far more non-famous scientists, and he dedicates a ton of time to reading psych literature.
This reminds me a lot of some of Bo Burnhams ideas that he tries to communicate like one of his quotes where he says “if you can live your life without an audience, you should do it.” And also reminds me of a video essay about him titled “Bo Burnham tried to warn us”
My 13 year old daughter has a smart phone but has certain restrictions such as not being allowed to use TikTok and not being allowed to put herself online. She also reads a lot of books and is on pace to read over 50 books for pleasure this year, plus being involved in theater at her school. Additionally, she exercises via bike riding, plays board games often, and goes to church regularly. There is a way to allow certain online interactions while balancing it with other things.
So you've got all of these wonderful activities in place for your 13 year old yet are willing to risk undoing all of that great work by introducing an anxiety inducing phone?
@@bakedbeans9546Stop looking at things in back and white. If your child has a robust enough social life with plenty of activities, a phone isn’t going to destroy them especially if social media is somewhat regulated
Eight years ago, I chose New Zealand and relocated from my home country with two young children. I didn't know it was the only country in the English speaking realm that allowed kids to climb trees. Furthermore, students now are not allowed to use their mobiles at school. I am even happier with my choice.
Awhile back I made the direct connection between parents that don't let your kids struggle with anything/experience discomfort/fail and anxiety about minor little things in life. The reparenting around that one has been a long slog. It's also interesting to consider that we stop kids from climbing onto 'dangerous' places and hold their hands as they take their very first steps. What if we allowed kids to take 'dangerous' climbs but asked them along the way 'what's your plan' and 'what will you do next' instead of scolding them or telling them 'be careful' (which is meaningless direction to a child).
Even my daughter is 22 year old is affected by this. And she came from Columbia 8 years ago and did not have a smartphone until she arrived in the states. The only thing I can do that has any meaning is give her books and share a podcast like this with her.
Can you do a vid on the sharp business practices you have experienced? Trying to find online more on the 'crank-on confirmation' and can't see anything. Lots of viewers have had to face these, no doubt, so it will be useful for lots of us.
I got unrestricted internet access around age 12, if you are a parent reading this: DON’T DO THAT! I’m 24 now and expecting my first child with my husband, and we agree, no screens!
Glad your guest mentioned correlation vs cause. Many of the claims he makes are correlations. That being said…good points. 1 statement he makes is off. The military and police lean right??? Wrong!
As the famous experiment showed: the kids who chose to give up a small pleasure (one marshmallow/chocolate/etc) for a bigger one later (two marshmallows 15 min after) tended to be better off in life. One takeaway is that parents need to be cognizant of how their choices affect their kids now vs later. You may want to give the child a moment of pleasure now, or you could refrain and allow them to gain much greater rewards later down the line. It's complex, for sure, but the point is to have the ability to judge when it is best to have less happy kids now in exchange for more sustained happier and better people in the future. "What's wrong with kids these days? Why can't they forgo instant gratification?" needs to be superseded by the same question but replacing "the kids" with "the parents".
I only keep my social media to share my art and paintings but no longer feel the need to share my personal life and craving for the instant gratification of likes. It took a while for me to get that balance and discipline. It’s liberating to be the one in control.
As a GenX I don’t remember anyone complaining about us or is complaining about anyone else. It was the 90s and we had a hell of a great time. Maybe too much booze but still had a great time.
to Jonathan Haidt: Some video games do have that level of disagreements; usually MMOs or games where you spend alot of time with the same subset of people which is I believe the point you were trying to make about around 42:11. Edit: Also, amazing discussion - gained so much from it.
@@SpecterVonBarenI was thinking the same, but there's much less incentive to actually resolve the issue (if its a random person). It's usually just player A saying player B is shit and player B insulting back. Its rarely constructive, and you're still missing out on other important social aspects like body language, eye contact etc. I think his analogy of only eating rice is pretty accurate
I live in New York City. People here don't look at each other, don't talk to each other, nothing. Like robots. I'm a child of the 1970s, and this is totally the opposite of ANYTHING I grew up learning about humanity. In fact, this is EXACTLY what the government wanted back then: they got a taste of the 60s, and they made damn sure it would never, EVER be repeated; not if they could help it. What better to do that but a techno-society, or a technological blight, as I call it.
Spend time feeling your body (not with your hands... with your attention). You'll realize that anxiety is actually the feeling of fear, expressing itself in your body as muscles and tissues in specific spots, tightening and tensing. The feeling of fear is a kind of pain, though it's never as bad as you think, and the solution is to face it. What do I mean by that? I mean a) realizing that your anxiety is a physical thing (clenching) that is expressing itself, in that moment, in some spot on your body (around the heart, behind the eyes, in the voicebox, in the abdomen), and that b) you can create a habit in which you dare yourself to put your mind on that icky feeling, over and over and over. It's as if the muscles/tissues (the fear) need to be noticed in their clenched state, and then they'll relax. It's a kind of a faith, because you don't know when or why you're going to feel anxiety. And you can't talk yourself out of it. And yet when it comes, you've learned that the only thing to do is look straight at it, with your mental attention, on the physical feeling of discomfort. And then it relents, and in those moments you begin to act with a grace you never had. And then the anxiety comes back (you get lost in narrative, dramatic thought, forgetting to feel your body) and you feel anxiety again. It's a cycle. It's a game (not trivial). It's you willingly feeling what your body shows you, over and over and over, in as many moments as you can. Again, it's faith - since you don't get to choose what you feel. You just dare yourself to feel it. It's a different kind of courage. And you become, in those moments in which you've accepted the sensation of anxiety - you become a better version of yourself because you stop, in big ways or in little ways, lashing out at the world. You're no longer thinking "I've had it up to here," because you've taught yourself to feel a lot more. That doesn't justify any given feeling, nor any given reaction. Simply, it lets you act more calmly, more fluidly, more gracefully. All from they payment of what I see as a penance: the willingness to feel the icky feeling of anxiety in as many moments as you can remember to. I realized this a couple years ago through singing, and you can hear it on my channel - the improvement of my voice, because of this practice, over the last few years. But it's much bigger than that. It'll change your life.
I agree this is crucial, essentially meditation practice. For those who do not like that aesthetic due to the spiritual connotation, think of it this way: It is like pressing stop on an alarm. Your body is telling you something, and only by the conscious mind saying "yes, I hear you, I am capable of dealing with it" does the "alarm" stop. If you distract yourself from fear, how can your body be sure you got the message?
I have climbed high trees when I was a child. These were important experiences: I knew I had to assess the risk, I had to decide whether I would be able to climb back the way I selected, and I had to control my fear. The trees were so high that I was aware of the fact that an error could end my life. Actually, the problem is that I wouldn't like my kids to do the same. I have photographs of mine showing me smiling on a roller coaster, while others were screaming. Actually, I wonder, if I developed a tendency towards high risks because I took chances more often than would be adequate and helpful.
A few weeks ago we went out to dinner. A group of 4, younger people walked in and were seated next to us. Obviously a double date thing. From the time they placed their order, to the time the food arrived, no one said a word. All four were on their phones. It was so stunning we couldn't help but watch and wait to see who spoke first. The food showed up and the guys started eating but the girls were a little slower putting down their phones. I couldn't help but think how depressing it must be. No interaction, no conversation, nothing. And they don't even realize it. Go into any gym now. There are people sitting around on benches and machines just staring at their phones. Some forget that others are waiting for them to finish up and move on. I've seen people sitting and mesmerized with their phones upwards to 10 minutes between sets.
Every century has its own challenges and difficult times. Just that in the past, there was no social media to spread out the pain to the world. It is just how each individual can cope with the rock bottom and pick oneself up again.
What an amazing episode. Just to comment on the video game mediation. There are many scenarios where kids will argue about a decision that was made and whether it was the correct one or not. EX: a team members goes into a house to fight someone without notifying his teammate and gets eliminated. They could argue about why he was alone, why he went in the house in the first place, why they weren’t communicating, etc. There are rules in the game, but the strategy is dictated by the players.
Great interview. The effects of beauty, and selfcare, face creams etc with 10 year olds is not just in social media, it is in the classroom and is spread by only a few girls who have access to social media, or from their mothers. The stuff my girl comes home with is ridiculous, and I'm constantly rectifying what other girls tell my daughter. My daughters school ban phones, which is great. I do limit the apps my daughter has access to, and she has a limited time on apps she can contact her friends on, and her sim card is removed every night to reduce emf and allows her to sleep without being pinged at 3am. You can make a smart phone just for communication. Whenever she wants to have a friend round, I all up for that, come round for tea.
Hello you savages. Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - chriswillx.com/books/ Here's the timestamps:
00:00 The Uniqueness of the New Generation
01:10 What Does a Good Childhood Look Like?
07:06 Changes in Parenting Styles
10:59 Lack of Discipline in Modern Parenting
15:16 The Importance of Risk in Play
20:47 Is the Education System Ruining Kids?
27:16 The Problem With Ideological Academia
30:45 Latest Data on Social Media’s Impact
38:47 Primary Harms of Technology on Kids
46:12 Is Social Media Use Addiction or Compulsion?
49:48 How Boys & Girls Use Technology Differently
56:46 The Male Sedation Hypothesis
1:02:37 Are Gen-Z Bothered About Status?
1:12:34 Latest Data on Female Mental Health
1:17:31 Why is Anxiety the Most Prevalent Feeling?
1:21:11 How We Solve the Teen Mental Health Crisis
1:28:04 Where to Find Jonathan
Thank you.I'm truly enjoying this simplified breakdown of the devouring mother, and why the parent must necessarily fail.. as if they succeed In protecting them from everything, they failed their child In being able to deal with anything... oxymoronical As it is it is the truth. And I appreciate it put in terms that more people will be able to digest❤
Oooo. A 'free' reading list! Sweet, Chris. I'll get right on that.
See it all, but from around 5 mins in
kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids, kids........ why is everyone always talking about the friggin kids? why is it ALWAYS all about the kids!?! Geez, not everyone is a parent, or even wants to be one, but noooooo, we are all steamrolled by all the parents and wanna be parents completely OBSESSED with the kids.
I'm tired of it. I don't about your kids.
@@peterbelanger4094 So there's a very important reason Everybody's talking about kids.Whether you want one or not you're economic prosperity or lack of will be in their hands in your elderly age( And this extends to possibly the very salvation of your life/health. the question becomes, do you care about yourself? It is self-serving In your particular case to know what is going on with these kids, EVEN if you don't ever have children, as you will be reaping the benefits of other people's children or detriments for that matter( And you didn't have to do any of the work, all you had to do was listen to us Try making them the best We could, so they're able to manage your situation). Remember when you're in the retirement home MY children are the ones that will be taking care of you, So again the question is, do you care about yourself and would you like to have a competent person taking care of YOU When YOU Are unable to? Another plausible thought, but less directly linked To your immediate surroundings, is if these kids have no idea how this economic system we have works, they step in and destroy the economic and political structures Your life falls apart as well. Would you like your retirement to disappear everything you worked Your life to save, gone in the blink of an eye?.Whether you like kids, whether you want kids, whether you have kids doesn't matter, they will dictate the end of your life, at least the last 15 to 20 years of it. These two reasons alone are pretty good evidence of why you should want to know what's going on with these kids...
My school board is looking to ban cellphones. I listened to this podcast, shared it with my teacher; my teacher shared it with the principal; the principal shared it with the entire staff within our school. They loved it! And the solution that Jonathan Haidt presented is exactly the thing our education board needs!
That sounds insane, nice
Excellent, that sounds like the line of school I want my future children to go to.
It's not enough to ban phones. I didn't know this until I worked as a substitute teacher a few years back, but they now start kids on "chrome books" in kindergarten. Instead of engaging with each other and the teacher, kids are now with headphones, isolated from each other as they play computer games that are supposedly intended to teach academic skills, but really just teaching immediate gratification, as if we need more of that. I'm not sure who's more at fault, the lobbyists of Microsoft and all of the software companies, or the gullible, lazy parents who have allowed this. I've wanted to go to the school board to complain, but I know it would be fruitless. When I've brought this issue up with other parents they basically shrug their shoulders or even defend it. My fellow "conservatives" need to realize that transgenderism and women's sports is just a diversion for the real atrocities going on in schools.
Do check out the schools in the news recently in Ireland, I believe it is -- they removed all phones and saw a huge turn around and benefit (kids are much happier!). Their approach was to bring parents on board.
Look up the strictest principal in London
I love this! I am born in 1972! I was not surveilled after school, I always got out after lunch just to crack my head open by climbing on a tree. I was much more careful the next time. We did stunts, climbed on trees, jumped from high walls and sometimes someone broke something or had a bleeding face. It was pretty normal. This was waaaayy before Internet and especially before Smartphones. I am over the top grateful for this fantastic youth I had!
1962 here. I am grateful every day for my parent’s benign neglect. Lived in the country, worked hard, played in the mud, rode the horses ( when we were suppose to stick to our ponies) and learned about the seasons, where food came from and that there are trade offs, not utopia. A bubble is an unhealthy place to grow up.
@@tammys8711 Even better than me, but we speak the same language! My dad was a fisherman and where ever he went, me and a friend were with him. We played in a creek and got our asses kicked by slippery stones :) Knowing your limits is so important, a lot of youngsters never make that experience nowadays, no wonder they cannot navigate in the world.
The do day ignorance is bliss so this tracks that you're this ignorant
I deactivated my Facebook over a month ago. And i actually don't wanna go back. I feel much better without it.
@@jakesaul9895Spot on! I left social media altogether in 2016 and find it quite disturbing that *anyone* is still on Facepalm, Instacrap, Twatter or whatever, especially knowing what we do about these dopaminergic demons that hijack our limbic systems, mine our data, and destroy civil society and childhood. It’s a predator’s dream, basically. Hard pass on all but TH-cam, where I carefully curate what I take in (mostly old concert footage) and limit time spent.
@@jakesaul9895 this ^. Thank you for putting it into words
After a while after you delete it, you start to see how it really was lame the whole time
Been off for 2.5 years now. Best decision ever.
You are filling gap with youtube and other "better platforms"
Haidt is a legend. As a 33yr who didn't understand Gen Z culture, The Coddling of the American Mind gave me insight on why the generational changes happened.
His new book was sold out at every Barnes & Nobles in the DC area this weekend!
Looks like many others are realizing how informative his literature is.
Chris scored big this time!
His book Righteous Mind also changed my outlook on life/politics. Top 10 books I'd recommend
Fellow DC area fan here! Just wanted to say it is nice to be reminded not everyone in the DMV is a captured anti-meritocracy layabout. There is a big difference between the population of DC proper & the more affluent suburbs. As a friend's dad once said "I didn't become a conservative until I had something worth conserving." I haven't changed much since I registered as a Democrat at 18, but they have moved so far to the authoritarian left quadrant that I am practically a republican myself now. I consider myself a pragmatic, small "l" libertarian.
Anyway, greetings from Fairfax!!
Unfortunately, people being glued to tech is needed, as we’re destined to become cyborgs. I’m not joking, that will happen. Implants. I don’t like this, but it’s been our theory for a long time now.
He misses the mark blaming social media instead of parents though
I was waiting for you to have a conversation with Haidt for the past 2 years. I'm halfway through the Anxious Generation and looking forward to listening to this podcast. Thank you Chris for platforming this legend of a man.
Thank you!!
@@ChrisWillx I'm a huge Haidt fan, you brought out more from him than any other interviewer I've seen. I'd watched a few episodes of yours before, but this was the one that really impressed me, you were smart enough for his academic bantor, and candid enough that he opened up on a few extra areas than usual. Well done!!
Now just Dr. Warren Farrell, "the Father of the Red Pill" as they call him.
Mate, your ability to mix bro-speak with articulateness is unmatched!
Another brick in the wall
When you give your child a phone, you're not just giving them access to the internet and the whole world. You're giving the internet and the whole world access to your child.
It is called propaganda. I see parents tell children: I used to do this as a child instead now kids are taught through phones what's right and wrong and most parents would start agreeing to this!! What happened to maturely talking to kids about importance of other people and relationships, no they'll learn it from social media or bad parenting as I might say
@@brianmeen2158homeschool and flip phone until 18 years old just like my folks did for all their kids
And artificial blue light that acts-not like-but as a drug on the human brain.
Be a parent! They don't have a right to a phone
@@Xairos84it’s a privilege. Mine has to earn it and it can be taken if abused.
My daughter's middle school does not allow phones to be used during the day. They have to be off and in lockers. The principal changed the whole atmosphere of the school 2 years ago with just that one rule. We don't allow social media until after high school. My now 21 year old son thanked me for keeping him off it. He only missed out on some slang words but those changed quickly so he didn't care. I'm sharing this with my friends and hoping they spend the time watching. Excellent interview! Thank you!
Ugggh I think a big reason the risky play is no longer allowed in schools is honestly liability issues, which is so sad and just a disservice to kids.
As a former teacher, I can confirm that this is true. I didn't let kids do risky play because it wasn't worth the bashing I'd get from irate parents or my administrators.
USA lawyer liability society
@@daveyvane so much gets ruined by this, especially for kids. I grew up with a civil litigator for a dad and it was eye opening
Our school used to organize yearly (optional) hiking trips to Switzerland for at least 15 years. Then suddenly it was deemed unsafe and it stopped.
Right, fear based decisions
My 11yr old son starting a phone free high school in Sept. Something I'm pleased about!
tomorrow i will delete my facebook account. Insta's been done already. Im done with this shit. I was one of these who didn't have a phone until 2016 and my mates said I was notoriously hard to get hold of. Im going back to those times.
😂
Not sure that will aid you in your quest to thrive in the modern world or maybe that is not your quest.
I downloaded OLauncher. It's an app that makes your phone look like a dumb phone. Paired it with a greyscale background. Helps a lot! And indeed, remove instagram and facebook.
@@cinnamondan4984Does it really seem true that people need to be on social media to thrive in the modern world? He just said he’s deleting FB; he didn’t say he’s moving to the woods.
The modern world is a fancy machine stuck in the mud, might as well get out and walk
13:21 I tell my kids about once a week that life is not fair, has never been fair, and won't ever be fair, focus on what you have control of and do your best
Attention fragmentation undermines our ability to focus, our productivity, and our performance. It's not just teens who are prone to this; adults are switching (aka multitasking) and constantly getting distracted by pings from Slack DMs in order to "be on top of everything" at work. This ironically leads to spreading oneself thin and compromising quality in the name of agility and speed in the current Zeitgeist of hustle culture running on sympathetic nervous system with chronic dysregulation.
Dude, many MANY people early on thought it was a really bad idea to give your young child a tablet or phone. I think this is rewriting the past by parents with regrets, to say we thought it was a good thing. Like, maybe you have a small group of friends that thought that, but the science was skeptical very early.
This
Yeah. A lot of things I see academics saying when they come onto the show are things conservatives were saying a long time ago.
Lol.
The conservatives were worried, the liberals were excited, it's just the classic cycle of two types of contrary overreactions until cultural shifts hard enough that only the extreme naysayers are remembered.
@@hhoi8225 I’m gonna need to see some evidence to ascribe concern over this issue to either side
This is now my favourite episode of MW. (Watched all of them)
❤️
Chris asked so many interesting questions and Jonathan was so comfortable. What a precious and important conversation.
Kids need structure. I grew up in a liberal household in the 1960's - 1970's and there were rules but not enough. Several don't (somewhat inconsistent) but no do's. So, my brother and I flew by the seat of our pants and adopted rules from other families. It left me feeling rudderless. I needed more structure.
Very well said. I see what happens with friends' kids without structure and rules.
Exactly!!!!
How were kids being raised prior to the internet and smart phones?
It was TV that occupied them when at home, even back then parents were attentive. Parenting, or the lack of, is a much bigger issue than is admitted because its an uncomfortable truth. Today it is worse because the modern type of technology is at a much faster pace so there's more impact, more information but still the lack of guidance so its even easier to get lost in it all...
OMG - 15 minutes in... and I have been nodding my head in agreement for the majority of the time. I see the result of gentle-coddling parenting in my now 19-year-old stepdaughter... it's horrible. I see how her mother and father have really stunted her and any accountability for being tardy, sleeping late, wrecking her car, doing CHORES, being respectful etc. is overlooked by them. I stand back in absolute horror... smh. But, for my sanity - I've disengaged because I was viewed as old-fashioned (mind you, I'm 12 years younger than her parents). My role before disengaging was in developing her into a responsible young adult who understood the importance of volunteering, service-before-self, being accountable, learning, being curious, having manners, chores etc - this was frowned upon by her momma... so...yeah - now they have an entitled young lady who is incapable of being an adult...good luck!
I have a similar experience with my niece - we used to get along, but when she hit maturity, she started behaving in a way that is extremely entitled and bratty. I've also had to disengage because the only way I could see to serve her, was to call out her bad behavior, and that was not appreciated.
A friend of mine is a single parent of a daughter. He was really into sports and had her play hockey and soccer since she was young. I chatted with her briefly when she was 15-16. She was remarkably mature for her age.
As a teacher...PHONE FREE needs to be it. I work in SEN and good heavens...this is an ISSUE.
Kids and adults are anxious today because no one spends time outside, no one learns actual skills anymore and living in concrete with traffic every where is stressful. Let’s get back to basics: animal husbandry, growing your food, kids spending the day outdoors until dinner time.
The fact that few people realize that diet has a direct correlation to our mental health astounds me. Feed us garbage foods and that's what you get....
That's a failing of parents, mainly. I always do activities and make things with my child, whereas the mother has the TV on all of the time, and is happy if my child is surfing the Internet. It's a constant battle. She's destroying our child.
We're separated so I only have influence half of the time.
@@seanfrank4158😂I'll answer you too. I've taught my child to cook and enjoy good, healthy food but the mother hates cooking and often orders pizzas and kebabs.
There, I've got that off my chest. 😊
Absolutely, if you can tell me how to financially survive, I say this all the time. Tried moving this way and lost my family because they love the world more than truth and peace. People think it’s crazy but I tell them, God didn’t build these cities and subdivisions, man did. The workplace is a mirror image of what these are talking about the children and why the adults are as bad shape as the kiddos. Plus the kiddos watch us more than they and we know. Someone Leads the sheep to the slaughter. Nature and things of are Gods, societies are humans and humans are stupid and proud. Been proven for thousands of years through all times and all societies.
I agree but not fully. There is good to be had in what we got. But i agree, we need skills and ways to be self sufficient, but why should I be? Thibk about it, how mich effort do i want to put in to making/growing food when I could be doing nothing?
This speaks to a larger issue with tech in general. You hear about since the advent of at home devices (tvs radios) people stop going to clubs. They stop going to fairs. They stop going to community centers. People isolate *themselves* from theit communities.
To top this off, the communities, instead of being diverse with thoughts and people, become homogeneous. Instead of meeting people of different walks of life and getting to know them, you only meet for a shared interest/hobby. The shared interest of the and for the "community" at large is gone. People often dont k ow or wosh to speak to their neighbors.
The vicissitudes of life include indignity, misfortune, and injustice. The more we are able to regulate our nervous system, radically accept unfairness when it's outside our sphere of influence and let go and move on, the more resilient, content and self-assured we become.
34:21 "In what ways can you be wrong?" Love the style of thought.
I did my own experiment snd stayed off social media for 2 weeks and my anxiety was decreased dramatically. I see the same in my child. Now, we stay away from screens with the exception of intentional use for necessity. As a parent the hardest part is being more present and creating activities and family play. People are so distracted and not living in the present.
Great conversation.
How do you deal with YT?
Just listening to Jonathan’s book The Righteous Mind - read by him. I used to think he was somewhat mainstream but I did not appreciate how much he is top of his field. He links some of the most significant thinking of our times. I got interested in Autism, then The Red Pill idea, then Ian McGilchrist on left/right brain and the modern world, the whole woke thing, Robert Sapolsky on free will and they have common threads with Jonathan’s work. For me Jonathan nails the key concerns most clearly of those I have listened to. He has a wonderful clarity and perceptual reach and he sees the dangers of our current experiment. I really recommend people to follow his thinking.
I'm going to be sharing this so widely! All parents should watch
For myself and my friends growing up “Teen” movies and shows about drama and about toxic social dynamics (ie Laguna Beach, Mean Girls, the OC etc) had a MASSIVE impact. Then magazines like Girlfriend and Dolly that on one page would talk about fashion and makeup then on the next page would be full of celebrity weight stats and “fashion faux pas” gave us another layer. THEN msn chat, MySpace and tumblr gave us access to conversation with people who benefited from our vulnerability in a way our parents had no idea about.
I remember chatting in random chat rooms with men when I would have been 12 years old. My parents had no idea that was a thing let alone what I was able to hide.
My ability to behave older and more mature meant my parents trusted me instead of guiding me but they didn’t realise how little an idea I had about what damage I was doing to myself. On the home computer with dial up internet.
Tumblr really fed my eating disorder - I’m sure I’m not alone
I lived this exact experience, but on the male side.
Enjoyed listening, thank you. This is so important and needs more attention than it gets… I’m 46 and struggled with the beginning of all this anxiety of depression in my teens, the 90s, and still do. I’m also a very sensitive person… I always think how much I feel for the youth today, can just imagine growing up with the internet and social media to boot, how politics have infiltrated everything... Our rush-rush consumer society is sick, and out of tune with nature, our true nature. It’s no wonder we’re all screwed up… And unless a disaster happens, it isn’t gonna change any time soon. It’s all about Big Business, at the expense of everything else… We all just have to do the best we can, considering. It starts with us.
Agree.
I have two kids below 3 and I am terrified of how social media will effect them..
Don't let them on it
I do too. It is terrifying, I imagine in the future more adults will realize the danger at least.
Wow, Chris! This dude is really interesting.
I completely agree with basically all his points.
I thought this was just going to be another boring Thursday.
Thanks, Chris, you made my day brighter!
You must read/watch The Coddling Of The American Mind.
One of my favorite pod casters hosting one of my favorite modern intellectuals. Thank you for this stimulating conversation, Chris. Excellent questions. You did a great job making Prof. Haidt feel comfortable to expand on his opinions more deeply than I have seen in other places he's given talks. Bravo, and congratulations on your Austin shoot and your 2M sub milestone!
I've been calling this out for 10+ years
Omg you’re so smart
@@NN-qj4sk why the sarcasm?
@@greyfoxice I think someone said that sarcasm is the reflexive emotion for when someone disagrees or doesn't like you but they can't articulate anything positive from their own to counter.
@@Rellikansarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
22:30 it's validating to hear this because I feel like being made to take tough classes having to do with complex math at 4yrs old in South Korea in 1994 was just not the move my parents should have made. My earliest memories are chronic stress from failing those classes, esp. with my difficulty focusing on academic studies. There were a lot of tears, sadly. Also didn't get to play a lot with kids my age.
8:12 Best of both worlds. Strict boundaries but lots of freedom within those boundaries. Kids thrive :-)
Many young people are not learning social skills needed for interacting face to face with other humans. Interacting thru a screen is not the same as in real life.
It’s great hearing Johnathon speak, no emotional biases, with many references to real data. I like his concept of “phone-based” society. Makes a lot of sense.
My daughter turned 14 today. She doesn't have a phone, just a tablet, and we don't plan on getting her a phone for another year, most likely. It gets easier to say "No" if you make a practice of it and incentivize the phone as a privilege that must be earned with maturity and behavior expectations. Almost all her friends have phones so she does feel left out, but not to the extent that it causes her serious distress.
I love Joe Rogan but he didn't think that Haidt's list of restrictions would be adopted by parents and I disagree. It is definitely possible and more parents are coming around to the dangers of letting their kids have social media. I am white-pilled on this issue. We can do it!
That's great parenting, and your daughter will thank you for it later... probably not now though, and I'll be doing the exact same thing with my own daughter
How do you measure "serious distress" from being left out?
@@alexdavila1356 Good question. I have found that while she does complain about it she is not overly obsessive or distraught by her lack of a cell phone. She uses her tablet to communicate with her friends on Kids' Messenger or Roblox chats so she isn't isolated from the virtual world completely. It isn't something she fights about with us and she doesn't seem to be too emotionally distressed about it 97% of the time. Her interactions with friends at school and through chats on her tablet are already filled with enough drama (which she hates) so I think she understands that we are protecting her and are not being unfair or unreasonable. It is also pretty rough in schools now and she sees the behaviour of her peers and is turned off by it all. She is into art and making animated videos for TH-cam so we have encouraged her in this area and I think it has been enough of a distraction to keep her content for now.
My son got his first phone this year, 10th grade, 16.
He is never on it.
Great job. Your descendants will thank you.
Finding that point in rough playing and throwing around where my son and daughter were delirious with laughter and terror simultaneously is one of the best experiences of my life, laughing beyond the abdominal and chest pain.
Wow! "What ways can you be wrong about this evidence" 34:25
I have never heard any interviewer ask this question. They all should ask this! Bravo!
Chris is possibly the best interviewer I know of. The quality of his questions are second to none.
Haidt is the man! Looking forward to this one.
I've played a lot of video games. My biggest mistake was not persevering in games I wasn't good at, save scumming until I got the perfect play, not pushing the difficulty to the highest I could try.
I got used to playing it easy, and restarting anytime I wanted, which didn't help me in real life when something went sideways and I had to salvage what I can. Instead of doing my best I just crashed.
They say that success is 90% perseverance. I think it's a difficult quality to learn.
One of the best gaming experiences I ever had was playing the original Half Life for the first time on the hardest difficulty.
It forced me to master the mechanics to a level I never would have otherwise, using every weapon to its max potential and memorizing enemy attacks and behavior.
The sense of satisfaction when I finally made it through the whole thing was incredible, and to this day I cherish the experience.
If I had just picked medium, it would have been good but just another game I think. What a terrible loss that would have been.
Protect and provide. Both are important! ❤
"Have you read a book for pleasure" They have SOOOOOOOOOO much more homework. Even if they don't have social media or are on the phone like my kid. It's all busy work when they get home. They are exhausted! I'm too exhausted because I'm having to help a tired frustrated child with the dumbest busywork you could imagine. This isn't normal.
Exercise through out the day helps with ADHD so your kids can focus better 😊 exercise in the morning is best, gets oxygen to their brains and gets the excess energy out like they would be in nature before man made school were we have to sit
I work in a high-pressure private school where we push kids hard. They have a lot of homework. And yet when you ask them to answer honestly, they will tell you they STILL spend several hours a day on their phone. Without that there'd be plenty of time for sleep and R&R.
I always found homework to be unfair - they keep you at school for 8 hours, why do they get to use the rest of your day, too?
Check the average teens screen time it's 12 hours a day or more. We have time if we make time
The homework level is way out of balance. Kids need time for other responsibilities and learning beyond academic subjects. Screen time should be limited. More parents need to take charge of their children’s development instead of outsourcing it.
We didnt get dial-up internet until I was 13. My life was awseome when I lived in the world, wind in my hair flying around on my bmx bike enjoying life with good friends. My 20s was a mess, drugs, depression and self worth issues. My early 30's, I went back to being the boy that took one of the prettiest girls in school to senior prom many years ago. Old habits die hard. Preserve and foster the good things inside you, people. Ask God for forgivness and guidance. There are real God-fearing local churches around, same as 100 years ago.
Completely agree with Jonathan Haidt (as usual). Another great person to chat with on the subject of mental health in the young would be Georgia Ede, a psychiatrist. She’s easy to find on TH-cam and has recently published ‘Change your Diet, Change your Mind’.
Anxiety is the fear of what could potentially happen, the internet provides a vast library of things that could potentially happen
Humanity is an organism that some times goes through illness, but I am confident that it heals itself in the end, always.
Jonathan talks about more play.... backing off on homework in kindergarten and first grade. I went to school from 1974-1987... I never had homework at all, until I was in the FIFTH GRADE.
It’s so sad that humans have devolved to a point of not being able to face social anxiety, so much so that they are unwilling to experience normal feelings of rejection. As part of gen x, I feel so so sad for the younger generations who find normal human experience something they should avoid at all costs. You learn through your failures. Success, even in dating, is born from learning from the success and failures you have through real life interactions. So, so sad.
I can absolutely relate to the unstructured time in childhood, freedom to play and take risks, and reading actual books. Gen Xer, here.
Love Jonathan Haidt. It's Brilliant that had him on the show.
I've been saying this stuff about myself for years. That I didn't have a lot of friends, that I wasn't allowed outside to ride my bike around with other kids, most of my time was spent alone in my back yard or playing video games. I remember being little and going outside on my own to explore and my mom freaking out that I was gone. My dad worked 12-16 hours a day, my mom really didn't like her life at home because my dad was very verbally abusive, and I think the lack of a male role model or man she could trust in the house made her much more cautious and fearful. I remember trying to go do things on my own many times and my mom telling me no because I didn't have someone to go with me (I didn't have siblings). I'm now 28, I've constantly felt there was something wrong my whole life, I never made all that many friends, never took any risks, never had a girlfriend, never been out of my parents' house. And as I'm nearing 30, the suicidal thoughts just keep getting stronger. And I'm constantly remembering all the things I've missed, all the developmental milestones that passed me by. I terrified that I'll never recover now, especially after watching this video and Jonathan's work. I don't know what to do anymore, I don't want to live the rest of my life this way.
you’re worth it! things can always change.
I’m sorry you’ve had it so rough. Sounds like you missed out on a lot. It’s never too late to grow and develop. Put yourself out there. Take the risks even though it’s uncomfortable. Show up. Try new things that are social. There’s lots of women your age who are struggling to connect as well who would welcome the chance. Take care
When I had my children, mid 80s to mid 90s, almost all women worked outside the home. I was the odd duck as a stay at home mom. So these mothers enrolled their children in all kinds of after-school activities because there was no one home for them. My children had to make dates to play with someone. There was no spontaneity. There was no, "Hey, you want to come to my house after school?" I feel bad for my kids, they had a completely different childhood than their parents, when our goal was to give them the same (or better) childhood. I see more young parents today wanting to be stay at home moms and I am glad for it.
Thank you Johnathan Haidt for your work. Great interview. Children need to spend more time outdoors in nature with other kids. Worked great for me as a child.
Chris ….thankyou and just to let you know I jumped on when you were at 250,000 subscribers as I thought you had an insightful manner and you hit upon super important themes around the health of young men
and I also have a 21 year old son who is dealing with all these issues that you talk about ….
In the vein of this current guest I suggest a fantastic guest is Christopher hedges
to me one of the most knowledgable individuals out there over many years ..if you want to get a very educated and insightful take on many of our societal issues that you are currently delving into…
we would definitely tune in as many of your audience would and individuals who may not know him would benefit hugely, I imagine….👌
This one has been one of the best conversations on this channel. Please bring more people to speak on these specific topics. Kudos on your work, Chris
I agree with pretty much everything I just listened to.
One other factor that I think has played into the issues of children and teens not socializing is the cost. Everything costs way too much and there's nowhere to go for free. I think of the malls my buddies and I hung out in back in high school. They are all closed now. There's no place I can think of that kids can go and just hang out that doesn't require them to spend lots of money to be there. Think of how much more gas, car insurance, and even used cars cost now than they did a decade or two ago. So not only have we limited where these kids can go, we made it far more expensive to get there. Early on, you mentioned hobbies, which are increasingly expensive and exclusive. My dad and I were big into model trains when I was growing up (he still is) and he's repeatedly commented, showing off stuff he has now at its incredible quality and detail, but also that a single freight car now costs more than the full starter sets you used to get at Toys R Us and how if we were starting out now, we'd never have gotten into it, as it costs too much. Same with the tabletop wargaming I still do. It's an adult hobby that requires a full time income even though its ultimately playing with plastic army men. The same goes for sports. How much does it cost for a kid to play most sports now?
I wonder if that also is factoring into parental risk aversion- who can afford the ER bill when your kids breaks something? Plus the fear of getting sued by other parents because your little King Arthur bonked their little Mordred over the dome a little hard with their stick sword. Or that State taking your children away for the same reason. By today's standards, I would have been deemed far too free range and DSS/DYS would have definitely been contacting my parents if not taking me away entirely.
An hour in, will definitely be sharing with my family and friends with kids. Its a must watch to help the parents (especially if they're older) understand the dynamics between social media and children.
Thank you. I teach college and really appreciate the issues raised in this conversation.
how amazing with all the education and knowledge we have these days that we find out kids were better off growing up in the 1970's and climbing trees.
Chris is on the grind pumping these good casts out 💪🏾. Upward and onwards my friend, nice work!
Chris is PASSING ROGAN on great podcasts🎉🎉🎉
Rogan literally had this guy on a few weeks ago
@@Entombs yup... I've watched over 2k of Joe's podcast.. very aware. Be Awesome!
Chris has been a better podcaster for 2+ years now. Joe was great for a long time and he’s a great man, but Chris is smarter, more clever, more self aware, much funnier in real-time conversation, brings on far more non-famous scientists, and he dedicates a ton of time to reading psych literature.
Can't compare the two. Chris is on another level.
This reminds me a lot of some of Bo Burnhams ideas that he tries to communicate like one of his quotes where he says “if you can live your life without an audience, you should do it.” And also reminds me of a video essay about him titled “Bo Burnham tried to warn us”
My 13 year old daughter has a smart phone but has certain restrictions such as not being allowed to use TikTok and not being allowed to put herself online. She also reads a lot of books and is on pace to read over 50 books for pleasure this year, plus being involved in theater at her school. Additionally, she exercises via bike riding, plays board games often, and goes to church regularly. There is a way to allow certain online interactions while balancing it with other things.
So you've got all of these wonderful activities in place for your 13 year old yet are willing to risk undoing all of that great work by introducing an anxiety inducing phone?
@@bakedbeans9546Stop looking at things in back and white. If your child has a robust enough social life with plenty of activities, a phone isn’t going to destroy them especially if social media is somewhat regulated
Eight years ago, I chose New Zealand and relocated from my home country with two young children. I didn't know it was the only country in the English speaking realm that allowed kids to climb trees.
Furthermore, students now are not allowed to use their mobiles at school.
I am even happier with my choice.
Thank you both for spreading this vital information!
Thank you for covering this topic! So important 🙏🏼
Excellent work. 6 month old boy at home, don’t know if I can’t get my wife to watch this but topic has def been top of mind.
This is the best episode of this podcast I've yet seen, and I'm only halfway through.
I suffer from social anxiety. I would have loved to have been able to practice virtual . It sounds like another way to help .
Awhile back I made the direct connection between parents that don't let your kids struggle with anything/experience discomfort/fail and anxiety about minor little things in life. The reparenting around that one has been a long slog. It's also interesting to consider that we stop kids from climbing onto 'dangerous' places and hold their hands as they take their very first steps. What if we allowed kids to take 'dangerous' climbs but asked them along the way 'what's your plan' and 'what will you do next' instead of scolding them or telling them 'be careful' (which is meaningless direction to a child).
Pretty much how my family raised me. Let me get into problems and then ask how I'm gonna fix it..
Even my daughter is 22 year old is affected by this. And she came from Columbia 8 years ago and did not have a smartphone until she arrived in the states. The only thing I can do that has any meaning is give her books and share a podcast like this with her.
The conversation on male withdrawal is very interesting. I would like to further explore more on this topic.
Can you do a vid on the sharp business practices you have experienced? Trying to find online more on the 'crank-on confirmation' and can't see anything. Lots of viewers have had to face these, no doubt, so it will be useful for lots of us.
God forbid should we decide to actually parent and inculcate strong values for our children to enable them to navigate their environment as they grow.
I got unrestricted internet access around age 12, if you are a parent reading this: DON’T DO THAT! I’m 24 now and expecting my first child with my husband, and we agree, no screens!
Glad your guest mentioned correlation vs cause. Many of the claims he makes are correlations. That being said…good points. 1 statement he makes is off. The military and police lean right??? Wrong!
Amazing conversation. I love Haidt.
As the famous experiment showed: the kids who chose to give up a small pleasure (one marshmallow/chocolate/etc) for a bigger one later (two marshmallows 15 min after) tended to be better off in life. One takeaway is that parents need to be cognizant of how their choices affect their kids now vs later. You may want to give the child a moment of pleasure now, or you could refrain and allow them to gain much greater rewards later down the line. It's complex, for sure, but the point is to have the ability to judge when it is best to have less happy kids now in exchange for more sustained happier and better people in the future.
"What's wrong with kids these days? Why can't they forgo instant gratification?" needs to be superseded by the same question but replacing "the kids" with "the parents".
43:20 Watching this video is taking so much of my time. But I can't stop. This is so interesting and informational. Much appreciated!
Great episode. I love the eclectic assortment of guests. Thanks Chris
I only keep my social media to share my art and paintings but no longer feel the need to share my personal life and craving for the instant gratification of likes. It took a while for me to get that balance and discipline. It’s liberating to be the one in control.
As a GenX I don’t remember anyone complaining about us or is complaining about anyone else. It was the 90s and we had a hell of a great time. Maybe too much booze but still had a great time.
You guys turned out to be awful parents tho
GenXer here. It seems to me that back then we were not hostile toward others on the basis of age groups, like many genZers and some millenials
Jonathan u r a gift !!
to Jonathan Haidt: Some video games do have that level of disagreements; usually MMOs or games where you spend alot of time with the same subset of people which is I believe the point you were trying to make about around 42:11. Edit: Also, amazing discussion - gained so much from it.
Yeah, I wanted to point that out too. There are tons of disagreements in online competitive games like he was describing
@@SpecterVonBarenI was thinking the same, but there's much less incentive to actually resolve the issue (if its a random person). It's usually just player A saying player B is shit and player B insulting back. Its rarely constructive, and you're still missing out on other important social aspects like body language, eye contact etc. I think his analogy of only eating rice is pretty accurate
Amazing chat guys. The issues you discussed need massive amplification because you have your fingers on the pulse of the problems.
I’m bummed but I’m also patient. Also, anticipation is a good thing! See you manana!!
I live in New York City. People here don't look at each other, don't talk to each other, nothing. Like robots. I'm a child of the 1970s, and this is totally the opposite of ANYTHING I grew up learning about humanity. In fact, this is EXACTLY what the government wanted back then: they got a taste of the 60s, and they made damn sure it would never, EVER be repeated; not if they could help it. What better to do that but a techno-society, or a technological blight, as I call it.
Spend time feeling your body (not with your hands... with your attention). You'll realize that anxiety is actually the feeling of fear, expressing itself in your body as muscles and tissues in specific spots, tightening and tensing. The feeling of fear is a kind of pain, though it's never as bad as you think, and the solution is to face it. What do I mean by that? I mean a) realizing that your anxiety is a physical thing (clenching) that is expressing itself, in that moment, in some spot on your body (around the heart, behind the eyes, in the voicebox, in the abdomen), and that b) you can create a habit in which you dare yourself to put your mind on that icky feeling, over and over and over. It's as if the muscles/tissues (the fear) need to be noticed in their clenched state, and then they'll relax. It's a kind of a faith, because you don't know when or why you're going to feel anxiety. And you can't talk yourself out of it. And yet when it comes, you've learned that the only thing to do is look straight at it, with your mental attention, on the physical feeling of discomfort. And then it relents, and in those moments you begin to act with a grace you never had. And then the anxiety comes back (you get lost in narrative, dramatic thought, forgetting to feel your body) and you feel anxiety again. It's a cycle. It's a game (not trivial). It's you willingly feeling what your body shows you, over and over and over, in as many moments as you can. Again, it's faith - since you don't get to choose what you feel. You just dare yourself to feel it. It's a different kind of courage. And you become, in those moments in which you've accepted the sensation of anxiety - you become a better version of yourself because you stop, in big ways or in little ways, lashing out at the world. You're no longer thinking "I've had it up to here," because you've taught yourself to feel a lot more. That doesn't justify any given feeling, nor any given reaction. Simply, it lets you act more calmly, more fluidly, more gracefully. All from they payment of what I see as a penance: the willingness to feel the icky feeling of anxiety in as many moments as you can remember to. I realized this a couple years ago through singing, and you can hear it on my channel - the improvement of my voice, because of this practice, over the last few years. But it's much bigger than that. It'll change your life.
I agree this is crucial, essentially meditation practice. For those who do not like that aesthetic due to the spiritual connotation, think of it this way: It is like pressing stop on an alarm. Your body is telling you something, and only by the conscious mind saying "yes, I hear you, I am capable of dealing with it" does the "alarm" stop. If you distract yourself from fear, how can your body be sure you got the message?
Great interview. The variety of topics covered was truly amazing.
I have climbed high trees when I was a child. These were important experiences: I knew I had to assess the risk, I had to decide whether I would be able to climb back the way I selected, and I had to control my fear. The trees were so high that I was aware of the fact that an error could end my life. Actually, the problem is that I wouldn't like my kids to do the same. I have photographs of mine showing me smiling on a roller coaster, while others were screaming. Actually, I wonder, if I developed a tendency towards high risks because I took chances more often than would be adequate and helpful.
A few weeks ago we went out to dinner. A group of 4, younger people walked in and were seated next to us. Obviously a double date thing. From the time they placed their order, to the time the food arrived, no one said a word. All four were on their phones. It was so stunning we couldn't help but watch and wait to see who spoke first. The food showed up and the guys started eating but the girls were a little slower putting down their phones. I couldn't help but think how depressing it must be. No interaction, no conversation, nothing. And they don't even realize it.
Go into any gym now. There are people sitting around on benches and machines just staring at their phones. Some forget that others are waiting for them to finish up and move on. I've seen people sitting and mesmerized with their phones upwards to 10 minutes between sets.
Every century has its own challenges and difficult times. Just that in the past, there was no social media to spread out the pain to the world. It is just how each individual can cope with the rock bottom and pick oneself up again.
What an amazing episode. Just to comment on the video game mediation. There are many scenarios where kids will argue about a decision that was made and whether it was the correct one or not. EX: a team members goes into a house to fight someone without notifying his teammate and gets eliminated. They could argue about why he was alone, why he went in the house in the first place, why they weren’t communicating, etc. There are rules in the game, but the strategy is dictated by the players.
Love Haidt! Phones and social media has ruined the world.
Too short! Y’all are great together
Your the first podcast I religiously watch. Great chats :)
Thank you for this Chris and Jonathan! ❤
Great interview. The effects of beauty, and selfcare, face creams etc with 10 year olds is not just in social media, it is in the classroom and is spread by only a few girls who have access to social media, or from their mothers. The stuff my girl comes home with is ridiculous, and I'm constantly rectifying what other girls tell my daughter. My daughters school ban phones, which is great. I do limit the apps my daughter has access to, and she has a limited time on apps she can contact her friends on, and her sim card is removed every night to reduce emf and allows her to sleep without being pinged at 3am. You can make a smart phone just for communication. Whenever she wants to have a friend round, I all up for that, come round for tea.
Excellent conversation