Maybe the commander product will have that, where the adventure half is to venture into the dungeon and the creature will somehow have a different ETB effect based on how far you are into the dungeon (maybe it’s +1/+1 counters to represent their adventuring experience, maybe it’s life gain like they’re bringing you provisions, maybe it’s extra scry so you have a better idea of what’s coming up within the dungeon, or maybe it’s a “if you complete a dungeon, copy the last effect” like they are increasing your reward).
Nadaar + Worldgorger Combo is a cool one. Probably nowhere near good enough for Legacy, but killing your opponent with literally Dungeons and a Dragon is going to make for the best beats story when that one player does it at that one FNM that one time.
I just find it amusing how either Nadeem is consider either too trash for standard or is gonna see infinite standard play for the next 2 years. People have no fucking idea how to evaluate these things
I see it like adventures, if we get a cheap artifact or enchantment that gives you an upside every time you Venture or a top end that makes venture trigger twice, then yeah, for sure these are going to see play, but if Nadeer is the best venture card in the set than, lol… I’m betting on a land that ventures for 4 like Karn’s Bastion and it would be a solid mana sink for control shells and maybe even see play in lands elsewhere.
@@impendio I could imagine some absurdity like a creature with protection from everything as long as you’ve either completed a dungeon or even something similar to what aetherworks marvel was for energy
@Doom Posterior I ain't heard of em either. Hope it was fun. I have a deck of EVERY planeschase card and use it in commander any chance they will let me xD I also have Bolas Archenemy cards, and been trying to hunt down the rest of the archenemy set... Just really expensive to dig up. Those are fun... Now prepare for, Commander Planeschase Archenemy Vanguard Explorers of Ixalan with Dungeons. Each turn takes an hour.
@Doom Posterior only with my Kenrith deck or my First Sliver deck >.> And ah, makes more sense. You'd think they would learn from that and not make companions but whoops.
This mechanic seems like it could be really fun in silver border now that you mention it. Could template it "venture into the un-geon" to keep the dungeon choices separate from black border.
Dungeons are a flavor win, but because you have to actively use slots in your decks with cards that are only good with the dungeon mechanic, I don't think they will be very powerful. Companions were good because you can play them with any other card you wanted. But when a mechanic is self referential and therefore limits you to playing a tiny pool of cards from one set then it's just not as likely to be broken (see Lesson/Learn mechanic).
@@impendio but Adventures were good in isolation. Brazen Borrower by itself is a good card with no other synergies needed. Lucky clover and Innkeeper just were gravy on top that made them dominating. So far, we have not seen a dungeon card that in isolation is very good.
I mean they are a flavour fail in the context of Magic. It's literally just "wink wink, D&D go through teh Dungeon by attacking your opponent". Adventure is broko and Party is shit, but Level Up would have been good to see. The problem with Adventure is it's just absurd card advantage, no one likes playing against it because you feel (quite rightly) that Bonecrusher and Brazen Borrower will just answer anything you have, and get a decent creature to boot.
Thanks you for a reasonable assessment of dungeons. I have seen way to many people complaining how they are the most powerful thing that has ever been printed.
my evaluation atm is that depending on how easy it is to trigger it will either be absolutely broken and half and be the next eldraine, or will be a fair underplayed mechanic that will see fringe play at best... but will ultimately depend on the amount of support from the rest of the set around it... im honestly excited for the mechanic i think it is a cool idea and if properly supported, will bring some much needed spice back to mtg...
You have to remember Mr. Kenobi, some people’s brains combust upon looking at Chains of Mephistopholes, which is literally just “If you would draw except for your first draw in the draw step, discard then draw. If you’re empty handed, mill 1 instead.”
I run Chains in my Cedh deck and my playgroup always has to take a min to read it like four times each even though they've seen it a bunch of games. Always gives me a chuckle.
Wizards is literally printing cards faster than i can buy them. I've yet to buy cards in 2021 because of it. This is starting to feel like its getting out of hand
its like movies and tv shows.. there isnt enough time in the multiverse to watch all of them. everyone will have their own unique experience.. dabble around and find something that works and focus on being the most effective you can without needing to own every card.
The monopoly board game dungeon idea sounds hilarious. I hope you get some credit for coming up with it when it's released in 2022. Maybe it will be your #freepreview
The actual effects on the dungeons seem really tame, but we don't yet know the cost of accessing the effect. Like, if there's a combo that lets you access the effect for U each time or when a creature etbs, then it's obviously very good (in the context of tokens). Even for 1U each, I think it would probably be fair. That would be 7UUUUUUU, for gain 1 life, scry 6, create a treasure token, exile 2 cards from the top of your deck and you can play them forever. Draw 3 and you can play 1 for free. Which seems pretty tame. The rate really matters here.
What I'm looking forward to doing is mass blinking venture effects to clear dungeons in rapid succession. the effects are small individually but if you trigger several a turn it's going to add up fast
They could have a reward system, whereas when you complete the dungeon. You get to flip the dungeon card and reveal a powerful creature, artifact, enchantment, or sorcery and it comes to play without mana cost. (For example, Let's say I complete the dungeon. I get to flip my dungeon card and it becomes a powerful creature.) or I complete another dungeon and flip the dungeon card to reveal a strong artifact or equipment and it comes to play when I complete the dungeon, with no casting cost.
Very flavorful, seems cool. Will definitely need to get my hands on them before I can actually judge tho, just like everyone else. They'll def be fun in limited, I will have to agree there. That's just obvious from a glance.
I like these cards a lot. The only (potential) problem i see for them is down the road if they become very popular. There will be the inevitable power creep. That's for the future though. As they are now though: 5 stars, great idea, good fun, and spot on flavor.
I feel like we can only truly know how impactful these dungeon cards will be when we learn what other cards in the set have the venture mechanic and if those cards can be 'abused' to venture through dungeons quickly. If so, you can get so much value in a small amount of time. Venturing through a dungeon at a rate of one or two rooms per turn seems pretty balanced and fair. Venturing through entire dungeons in a single turn? We'll see...
To piggy back off the monopoly board. Every time you venture, you roll 2d6 and if you roll doubles you venture again, and if you roll 3 doubles in a row your opponent gets a time walk.
tomb of annihilation is so good for black.. unfortunately i dont know how to use it.. and while im watching this video i still dont know how to use it.. i need a separate card with enter the dungeon every time i progress through the dungeon or i can move one step each turn?
I’m betting on a land with “(4), T: Ventures into the Dungeon”, would be pretty good in hard control and lands, but if there’s like a red mythic with haste that ventures on hit then I can see dungeons to be very very good, even a single playable “ETB, Ventures” that gets played at 4 gives you a _lot_ of options out of the three available dungeons and first few rooms, scrys, life, blockers, treasures, etc…
I would say the last effect of Dungeon of the Mad Mage is not low power at all, but you have to do so much to get there. Also, one of the Commander Decks is called Dungeons of Death. Willling to bet we will be getting more Dungeons in that. (I know they said only 3 in this set, but commander precons are considered outside of the set.)
This seems like a fun set to draft, and maybe play 2 headed giant? I hope they push the mechanic a bit more, it might be nice to store some packs to play this 'mode' in the years to come.
Dungeon/Venture is definitely a wait and see mechanic. If it gets enough good enablers and payoffs, it could be just as parasitic to Standard that Energy was. However, it could also be just another good limited mechanic that really doesn't see play in Standard. I unfortunately don't really see any middle ground on this mechanic, but I could be wrong. However, it's still far too early to judge one way or another about it being good in Standard or not.
venture should trigger multiple times equal to number of creatures in your party :D (I still wonder why druid, monk and knight are not counted as members of party)
My Guess is she's a god, and if powerful enough they can traverse the few different planes of the forgotten realms. I expect we see other DnD gods in this set as planeswalkers.
Because they wanted the set to have planeswalkers, but they didn't want to connect it to the rest of MtG lore, so they decided to just make some cooler creatures into planeswalkers. (even though DnD already has several canonical planeswalkers, including Mordenkainen, Tasha, and EVERY mind flayer.)
@@sagecolvard9644 you right, and it is early enough in spoilers that I wouldn’t be surprised to see them both in the set, but I think only one of the many plane traveling mages are going to be made a walker. Honestly, only other gods I genuinely think will show up is Tyr or Paelor as the white one.
You just mentioned in passing Oublietting your opponent when talking about Thespian's Stage. Unfortunately you have to Oubilette yourself, cant hit opponents with it
If they had to make a silver border dungeon secret lair, it would 100% be monopoly and I'm laughing. I would so buy it, even if everyone else hates it.
Dungeons are cute in terms of flavor, but unless we see something that really helps to push them along (like a card that allows you to advance multiple times in a turn), I think they're a bit too clunky to be practical. A cute little inclusion for the Timmy in all of us, but not something you really want to base a deck around. Good to see Gloomstalker continuing the trend of Wizards abusing the common slot for the purposes of draft. A creature that fails the vanilla test because it would be too good if it passed, and you managed to actually jump through the hoops of the set's mechanic is exactly what I expect from wizards. Most of the time it's going to be a feel bad 2/3 vanilla for 3 mana. I see we've already got the 2 mana black removal spell that can't hit half the creatures in this set, and I look forward to seeing the 5 mana burn spell that does a game-breaking 3 damage. Wowie kazowie! Anyone else remember when common cards were actually playable in constructed?
Interestingly, I wonder if dungeons might see play in pauper. If there's an ok payoff, I'd probably want to build it just for the payoff you might be able to get out of Mad Mage...
Given that the three dungeon cards have red, green, and black in the design, I'm going to hazard a guess and say there will be at least five dungeons total. Why would they color them in such a specific way, and NOT complete the color pie? On another point, I was expecting Dungeon to just be a special kind of land card, that some cards would play off of. Kind of like how Gates were a thing in Ravnica. I'm bemused that they went even more off the beaten track with it than that. You could almost call it... _adventurous._ ;)
As someone who refuses to play humans in D&D, I felt mildly called at the end of this video. But why would I be a human when I could be literally anything else.
I still think dungeons would have worked as a land type. Have them tap for colorless/1 color, then have a “Quest” you need need to complete to flip it into its complete version with extra mana like more colors or extra mana, then an effect for completing the dungeon
This is how Dungeons work in my Zelda set. They have a mechanic (also called venture, go figure) where creatures can tap to add a counter to them, then you can activate an ability and remove counters for some benefit. Representing exploring a place and bringing out treasure or items. I think the downside is the Dungeons feel less like an ordeal, but the upside is there are a lot more you can represent, and some fun interactions with creatures. I didn't think about using DFCs, but it's probably a good idea since people don't like counters on lands.
I wish they had added Party mech to the set and dungeon card interaction to the effect that if you venture with a party, the dungeon effect is enhanced. or something.
Zones that opponents cant interact with, thats just a recipe for feelbads. As soon as someone finds a way to venture infinitely its "choose your wincon from your sideboard". Obviously we dont know the potential of venture cards yet, but mechanics that exist in non-interactable zones are *very* easy to break. Companion was (hopefully) more extreme, but I understand the comparison. I usually have to think about yugioh, which invented new zones for cards that dont have to be in your deck and practically are always available once you need them - which is akin to this.
Well, if you take a step back it's just a triggered ability that's modal and the dungeons are used to reference what effect you get. They're no less interactable than any other creature with an ETB or activated ability etc, and Magic is already filled with a bazillion ways to win the game once you can repeat an effect infinitely. I don't think there's much to be worried about tbh.
@@Hitzel You are completely right, consider my rant to be a critique of the problematic that can be caused by new zones rather than me saying "Venture is defnitely broken".
I just want to know what happens when you build an Adventure deck in day 1 Limited. You won't have cards for all three, I guarantee it, unless they are all automatically included in the Prerelease pack. But you have access to all three regardless, according to the Mechanics article on the site. My biggest annoyance is mechanics like this and Lessons and Party that are made and specifically slated for Limited... and then have Mythics associated with them, when Mythics are specifically made to not be seen in Limited. They are rarely good enough to put in anything, including commander, especially when the majority of the cards are just garbage and there will likely never be another card with the mechanic (not even in Modern Horizons).
I feel like you're VASTLY underestimating how these Dungeon cards will work. We're likely to see 4 of them in the 4 commander deck products, probably three of these 4, and every pack will have a Dungeon card slot so it takes up a rather small meaningful chunk of what you open for the set. I was kind of hoping that they'd have mentioned if we're getting more Zendikar Returns Again (Yes I forgot the name of the set) Party mechanics, since it would be pretty fun to have a party mechanic that cares about venturing through the dungeon(s) you might have. I think that it'll end up being about as relevant to now as the Energy Mechanic from Kaladesh, where it seems like it's a way to push cards a bit further but unfortunately doesn't really exist outside of standard rotation.
We're NOT going to see any more of these in the Commander decks accompanying AFR, MaRo has explicitly confirmed that these 3 are all that they're making.
The main/only thing that bothers me about dungeons is the... Not sure how to phrase it, mechanical ubiquity? As far as I understand it you can choose any of the three Dungeons to venture into. They exist independently from any deck building. They're complex effects but it feels bad that no other set would be able to introduce more dungeons without totally ruining the balance.
(Also unsure of what to do with the Dungeon + venture mechanic in my custom Zelda set that's like 4 years in progress, but it was gonna happen sooner or later)
Mechanics don't need to have room to expand. It's a myth. "Parasitic design" is the buzz word your looking for. People keep saying it, but no one seems to be able to explain what the problem is. Instead of adding more Dungeons, they could instead have a variant of this, like assembling contraptions. That was they don't risk breaking these wide open sometime in the future by accident.
@@PleasantKenobi So do you think the variants would have the same type, "Dungeon?" Idk I know it doesn't really matter, I just think it would be cool to have a bunch of different dungeons for flavor reasons. That's really all that bothers me tbh.
Unfortunately, as someone who was hype as hell for dungeons, I'm super down on these cause as I looked them over, I thought of several different ways I would make this mechanic more fun and flavorful over timid choices they made, and so in their current state they leave me cold.
@@PleasantKenobi To be fair, fun and flavorful is my opinion, but I can see how that statement would read. I pondered on either tying progression to the party mechanic/composition (When X type of creature enters the battlefield, advance to the next chamber) and/or having them be a subset of sagas which would allow for some form of interaction. If I was designing these things, and I knew I was only getting 3 (Personally, I think they could've done at least double that, if not more), I'd likely do the Demonweb Pits (With Elf and Spider anthem paths) which ties to old school D&D stuff and Lolth, Castle Ravenloft (Undead support with a side path to snag/create a Sword or like, board wipe black cards or something) since Curse of Strahd is the most popular 5e module, and I unno, Crenshenibon the Crystal Shard or something (Blue effects centering around mind control) for that distinctly Forgotten Realms dungeon and then you set it up so that progression not only produces different effects, but leads to nicer rewards, and successful completion also like produces a treasure every turn (Because you should get some loot for completing a dungeon) or it makes an emblem that produces a unique thematic effect for the dungeon's successful finish. I also would've been interested in dungeons as curses that inflict conditions on your opponent and how they built their deck affects how they progress through, with them receiving a reward at the end for successfully completing the dungeon you've imposed on them. Now granted, these could be set in a way to be broken, but I think if the cards actually took up deck space and/or could be interacted with, that would balance that a bit. As it is, I feel like they played it too safe with the design on this one.
The main difference between lessons and these is that with lessons you had to still cast the card, when you enter a dungeon you just start getting free vaule right away. Every deck will run these, even if you don't play the cards that get the dungeons. You can bluff that you do, since they don't take up sideboard slots. It's basically the snow situation before we had some hate. And if any of the eneblers are good R.I.P old formats Small advantage is still a advantage. There is literally NO reason not to run these.
Three _that have been revealed so far._ Note also there three shown here had Red, Green, and Black colors in them, respectively. It seems unlikely there wouldn't be White and Blue colored dungeons, to complete the color pie.
@@Eric_The_Cleric Unfortunately they announced alongside the mechanic announcement that these will be the only 3 dungeons at least from this set, and you will have all 3 dungeons available at all times. the all 3 kinda cuts off opportunity for it- but there's no doubt we'll see some strahd characters and maybe a Barovia land or something.
@@TheTunaSaladin well then that's a bit of BS ngl. Beggars can't be choosers though, I guess. I'm just excited to see how the dungeons we are getting play ngl. Theyre flavorful and seem pretty fun, even if there are only three max.
@@TheTunaSaladin *looks at DnD set pt. 2 electric boogaloo* this is getting out of hand, now there are two of them! Joking aside, though, I think I am going to design myself up a few dungeons to play alongside decks for full flavor value. Maybe I'll be able to just outright create a full dungeon delving deck for the memes and have plenty of dungeons to choose from. Of course they're not going to be allowed in constructed competitive play, but 1. I don't think dungeons are meant for that and 2. the mechanic is too flavorful not to have that kind of fun with. More official dungeons would totally be dope.
Feel free to take my hot take Vince, Three (snow, lesson, dungeon) parasitic sets in a row. All purposely low power level. That is the smoke they put the FIRE design phase out with; an entire rotation under power. Eldraine takes all power with it when it goes. FIRE design to punch power down through the formats straight into legacy, horizons to rotate every formats top tier of decks, feeling out which levers to pull and what lines to cross. Then, back-to-back tribal sets in Innistrad, the playerbase's all time favorite tribal plane, and the delicious smell of phyrexian oil lingering in the air the whole time. After FIRE power designs and 5-color-nonsense, and after the parasitic neato whizbang cool down period; we get color-identity focused tribalism in innistrad as it mends only to be invaded by phyrexia and its no-color-designs. Be hype.
Just think the ban of Lurrus was out if place in vintage. Good, but not in the degenerate way in legacy, just in "fair decks". Too easy too use for use, but I think it was fine there tbh even pre errata
It was basically used to recur seals for example, not the wild LED play patterns in legacy. I get it, lotus Lurrus lotus. Strong, but you d it didn't get 90% storm, but fair decks. The fact that now no one plays it says it all. 3 extra mana is not much to combo out with it, while for fair decks it is indeed
It's literally just a saga emblem. We've always had complicated mechanics that are super confusing. The phasing & banding of yesteryears to the mutate & companions of today.
These are going to be too confusing to keep track of on both player's sides. They remind me too much of contraptions from the unset, With all the dungeon abilities, the planeswalker reminds me of Urza, also from the unset. This really isn't going to be something I like
I feel like wotc should have gone with this reminder text instead of a token card: www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/o7v7am/for_the_dungeon_venturing_mechanics_i_thought/
Tbh, buying mh2 singles completely stripped my MtG budget. Edit: well, maybe I'll buy 2-3 of the most standout Forgotten Relams singles? 😅 Edit 2: Please have a low powered set, for the mercy of my wallet 😭
Look everyone will like different things and that’s fine I’m happy for those who like it personally not a fan of it in mtg but then again I’m just sick of having to have a new mechanic every set it’s so unnecessary just reuse some of the old ones
I’m guessing you will also only be able to venture into the same dungeon once per game otherwise tomb of annihilation could end up being a little pushed
Nope, you can go back into the same dungeon an infinite number of times per game of Magic, if your deck can generate infinite venture triggers - the only upper bounds is the number of "different" dungeons you can complete (because there's only these 3).
![Are Dungeons Worth Playing in EDH? [MTG | Adventures in the Forgotten Realms Commander Application]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ja7EJCHmPxQ/mqdefault.jpg)
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
God damn I laughed at that into
Baldurs gate...aaw yeah
Nostalgia overwhelming.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Praying for a creature with an adventure effect of venturing in to a dungeon. it's too perfect
I'm just hoping they bring back party in some capacity
Maybe the commander product will have that, where the adventure half is to venture into the dungeon and the creature will somehow have a different ETB effect based on how far you are into the dungeon (maybe it’s +1/+1 counters to represent their adventuring experience, maybe it’s life gain like they’re bringing you provisions, maybe it’s extra scry so you have a better idea of what’s coming up within the dungeon, or maybe it’s a “if you complete a dungeon, copy the last effect” like they are increasing your reward).
Can't wait for the Warhammer 40k MTG set with cards like Boltgun Volley where you throw 50+ die with 5+ for 1dmg each to any target.
Yes please
Dungeons and Taxes. What a name, even better than the holy machine
Nadaar + Worldgorger Combo is a cool one. Probably nowhere near good enough for Legacy, but killing your opponent with literally Dungeons and a Dragon is going to make for the best beats story when that one player does it at that one FNM that one time.
I just find it amusing how either Nadeem is consider either too trash for standard or is gonna see infinite standard play for the next 2 years. People have no fucking idea how to evaluate these things
I see it like adventures, if we get a cheap artifact or enchantment that gives you an upside every time you Venture or a top end that makes venture trigger twice, then yeah, for sure these are going to see play, but if Nadeer is the best venture card in the set than, lol…
I’m betting on a land that ventures for 4 like Karn’s Bastion and it would be a solid mana sink for control shells and maybe even see play in lands elsewhere.
@@impendio I could imagine some absurdity like a creature with protection from everything as long as you’ve either completed a dungeon or even something similar to what aetherworks marvel was for energy
I kinda would be all about a Scheherazade that is just “play a D & D game” but your character is a creature from your opening hand
I like dungeons. They remind me of Planechase.
They are legal in planeschase >.>.... Idk how you shift planes and remain in the same dungeon but yeah.
I like plainchase too, but it wasnt legal in any other format... dungeons are legal in every format (citation needed)
Well nothing's stopping you from dropping a deck of planeschase and a planar die into a commander game if everyone agrees ;)
@Doom Posterior I ain't heard of em either. Hope it was fun. I have a deck of EVERY planeschase card and use it in commander any chance they will let me xD
I also have Bolas Archenemy cards, and been trying to hunt down the rest of the archenemy set... Just really expensive to dig up. Those are fun...
Now prepare for, Commander Planeschase Archenemy Vanguard Explorers of Ixalan with Dungeons. Each turn takes an hour.
@Doom Posterior only with my Kenrith deck or my First Sliver deck >.>
And ah, makes more sense. You'd think they would learn from that and not make companions but whoops.
This mechanic seems like it could be really fun in silver border now that you mention it. Could template it "venture into the un-geon" to keep the dungeon choices separate from black border.
The new Planeswalker sounds like she was an extra in Cats, who never got a chance to sing her song.
Dungeons are a flavor win, but because you have to actively use slots in your decks with cards that are only good with the dungeon mechanic, I don't think they will be very powerful.
Companions were good because you can play them with any other card you wanted. But when a mechanic is self referential and therefore limits you to playing a tiny pool of cards from one set then it's just not as likely to be broken (see Lesson/Learn mechanic).
didn’t adventures ended up dominating standard for over years or something? if we get anything innkeeper or lucky clover they will for sure see play.
That's a good thing.
@@impendio but Adventures were good in isolation. Brazen Borrower by itself is a good card with no other synergies needed. Lucky clover and Innkeeper just were gravy on top that made them dominating. So far, we have not seen a dungeon card that in isolation is very good.
@@malmasterson3890 agreed, I'd rather have a fun mechanic than a format warping one.
I mean they are a flavour fail in the context of Magic. It's literally just "wink wink, D&D go through teh Dungeon by attacking your opponent". Adventure is broko and Party is shit, but Level Up would have been good to see. The problem with Adventure is it's just absurd card advantage, no one likes playing against it because you feel (quite rightly) that Bonecrusher and Brazen Borrower will just answer anything you have, and get a decent creature to boot.
that opening brought me back to the late 90's like nothing else! i always wondered why sarevok was telling me to gather my party lol.
Thanks you for a reasonable assessment of dungeons. I have seen way to many people complaining how they are the most powerful thing that has ever been printed.
Oubliette is just you. Only you discard and sack. It's to power out the dungeon completion.
my evaluation atm is that depending on how easy it is to trigger it will either be absolutely broken and half and be the next eldraine, or will be a fair underplayed mechanic that will see fringe play at best... but will ultimately depend on the amount of support from the rest of the set around it... im honestly excited for the mechanic i think it is a cool idea and if properly supported, will bring some much needed spice back to mtg...
I still it's early to fully judge them, even with a few cards interacting with Dungeons it seems a sidekick at best - so far.
You have to remember Mr. Kenobi, some people’s brains combust upon looking at Chains of Mephistopholes, which is literally just “If you would draw except for your first draw in the draw step, discard then draw. If you’re empty handed, mill 1 instead.”
I run Chains in my Cedh deck and my playgroup always has to take a min to read it like four times each even though they've seen it a bunch of games. Always gives me a chuckle.
Wizards is literally printing cards faster than i can buy them. I've yet to buy cards in 2021 because of it. This is starting to feel like its getting out of hand
its like movies and tv shows.. there isnt enough time in the multiverse to watch all of them. everyone will have their own unique experience.. dabble around and find something that works and focus on being the most effective you can without needing to own every card.
I will no longer judge mechanics until I know what interacts with them.
This reminds me of something Bart would have to write on the chalkboard
@@benhensley3621 It is admittedly, the mother of hindsight built by personally experiencing MTG hype season over and over.
This is a why attitude to have.
MaRo said that the there dungeons are going to be the only ones, including the precons
The monopoly board game dungeon idea sounds hilarious. I hope you get some credit for coming up with it when it's released in 2022. Maybe it will be your #freepreview
The actual effects on the dungeons seem really tame, but we don't yet know the cost of accessing the effect. Like, if there's a combo that lets you access the effect for U each time or when a creature etbs, then it's obviously very good (in the context of tokens). Even for 1U each, I think it would probably be fair. That would be 7UUUUUUU, for gain 1 life, scry 6, create a treasure token, exile 2 cards from the top of your deck and you can play them forever. Draw 3 and you can play 1 for free. Which seems pretty tame. The rate really matters here.
Hey, does anyone know the name of the song playing at the start of the video(from start until around 3mins)?
What I'm looking forward to doing is mass blinking venture effects to clear dungeons in rapid succession. the effects are small individually but if you trigger several a turn it's going to add up fast
They could have a reward system, whereas when you complete the dungeon. You get to flip the dungeon card and reveal a powerful creature, artifact, enchantment, or sorcery and it comes to play without mana cost. (For example, Let's say I complete the dungeon. I get to flip my dungeon card and it becomes a powerful creature.) or I complete another dungeon and flip the dungeon card to reveal a strong artifact or equipment and it comes to play when I complete the dungeon, with no casting cost.
Very flavorful, seems cool. Will definitely need to get my hands on them before I can actually judge tho, just like everyone else. They'll def be fun in limited, I will have to agree there. That's just obvious from a glance.
they don't take up side board slots for the same reason planeswalker emblems don't.
Looks really cool... Maybe I'll pick up a box for drafting.... or maybe even go draft in a store :D
I like these cards a lot.
The only (potential) problem i see for them is down the road if they become very popular.
There will be the inevitable power creep. That's for the future though.
As they are now though: 5 stars, great idea, good fun, and spot on flavor.
I feel like we can only truly know how impactful these dungeon cards will be when we learn what other cards in the set have the venture mechanic and if those cards can be 'abused' to venture through dungeons quickly. If so, you can get so much value in a small amount of time. Venturing through a dungeon at a rate of one or two rooms per turn seems pretty balanced and fair. Venturing through entire dungeons in a single turn? We'll see...
My Sylvia & Khorvath EDH is drooling over Nadar...
To piggy back off the monopoly board. Every time you venture, you roll 2d6 and if you roll doubles you venture again, and if you roll 3 doubles in a row your opponent gets a time walk.
tomb of annihilation is so good for black.. unfortunately i dont know how to use it.. and while im watching this video i still dont know how to use it.. i need a separate card with enter the dungeon every time i progress through the dungeon or i can move one step each turn?
I’m betting on a land with “(4), T: Ventures into the Dungeon”, would be pretty good in hard control and lands, but if there’s like a red mythic with haste that ventures on hit then I can see dungeons to be very very good, even a single playable “ETB, Ventures” that gets played at 4 gives you a _lot_ of options out of the three available dungeons and first few rooms, scrys, life, blockers, treasures, etc…
Dungeons are just non automatic, uninteractable, multiple choice sagas
Which makes them kinda like a saga/story you are writing yourself. So I'd say the flavor is on point.
I would say the last effect of Dungeon of the Mad Mage is not low power at all, but you have to do so much to get there.
Also, one of the Commander Decks is called Dungeons of Death. Willling to bet we will be getting more Dungeons in that. (I know they said only 3 in this set, but commander precons are considered outside of the set.)
Maro confirmed precons will not add any dungeons. There will never ever ever be any more dungeons than these three
@@grantpolley never ever is a long time, but appreciate the precon info. ;)
This seems like a fun set to draft, and maybe play 2 headed giant? I hope they push the mechanic a bit more, it might be nice to store some packs to play this 'mode' in the years to come.
Dungeon/Venture is definitely a wait and see mechanic. If it gets enough good enablers and payoffs, it could be just as parasitic to Standard that Energy was. However, it could also be just another good limited mechanic that really doesn't see play in Standard.
I unfortunately don't really see any middle ground on this mechanic, but I could be wrong. However, it's still far too early to judge one way or another about it being good in Standard or not.
venture should trigger multiple times equal to number of creatures in your party :D (I still wonder why druid, monk and knight are not counted as members of party)
OMG BALDUR'S GATE DROPS
I love the dungeons. There are already videos of infinite single turn loops through dungeons
What song did you use for the outro?
Okay but why is the Scary Spider Slavery Goddess a planeswalker?
My Guess is she's a god, and if powerful enough they can traverse the few different planes of the forgotten realms. I expect we see other DnD gods in this set as planeswalkers.
They needed planeswalkers and they said they chose to use extra planar characters, as in characters that show up on various planes.
They wanted to make some of the really cool ones into Planeswalkers so they felt extra special
Because they wanted the set to have planeswalkers, but they didn't want to connect it to the rest of MtG lore, so they decided to just make some cooler creatures into planeswalkers. (even though DnD already has several canonical planeswalkers, including Mordenkainen, Tasha, and EVERY mind flayer.)
@@sagecolvard9644 you right, and it is early enough in spoilers that I wouldn’t be surprised to see them both in the set, but I think only one of the many plane traveling mages are going to be made a walker. Honestly, only other gods I genuinely think will show up is Tyr or Paelor as the white one.
These look like a cool play on sagas.
You just mentioned in passing Oublietting your opponent when talking about Thespian's Stage. Unfortunately you have to Oubilette yourself, cant hit opponents with it
Oh shit. That makes that plan very bad. I thought it was both players. :(
@@PleasantKenobi pretty sure a large percentage of the internet did as well mate
Baldur's Gate... This is how I know this man fucks, right there. That's the OG shit.
...I do hope we have more than 3 Dungeons to chose from.
I think/feel 5 would be ideal.
MaRo explicitly confirmed there are just those 3.
Perpetual HYPE!
If they had to make a silver border dungeon secret lair, it would 100% be monopoly and I'm laughing. I would so buy it, even if everyone else hates it.
Dungeons are cute in terms of flavor, but unless we see something that really helps to push them along (like a card that allows you to advance multiple times in a turn), I think they're a bit too clunky to be practical. A cute little inclusion for the Timmy in all of us, but not something you really want to base a deck around.
Good to see Gloomstalker continuing the trend of Wizards abusing the common slot for the purposes of draft. A creature that fails the vanilla test because it would be too good if it passed, and you managed to actually jump through the hoops of the set's mechanic is exactly what I expect from wizards. Most of the time it's going to be a feel bad 2/3 vanilla for 3 mana. I see we've already got the 2 mana black removal spell that can't hit half the creatures in this set, and I look forward to seeing the 5 mana burn spell that does a game-breaking 3 damage. Wowie kazowie!
Anyone else remember when common cards were actually playable in constructed?
Holy shit I haven't even gotten my hands on any modern horizons 2 cards yet, wtf wotc.
Interestingly, I wonder if dungeons might see play in pauper. If there's an ok payoff, I'd probably want to build it just for the payoff you might be able to get out of Mad Mage...
Monopoly set you say?
5/5 Thimble secret-lair card incoming.
Given that the three dungeon cards have red, green, and black in the design, I'm going to hazard a guess and say there will be at least five dungeons total. Why would they color them in such a specific way, and NOT complete the color pie?
On another point, I was expecting Dungeon to just be a special kind of land card, that some cards would play off of. Kind of like how Gates were a thing in Ravnica. I'm bemused that they went even more off the beaten track with it than that. You could almost call it... _adventurous._ ;)
Magic the Gathering: first designed as a quick game to play between D&D sessions, now you can get in your D&D session *during* the game.
As someone who refuses to play humans in D&D, I felt mildly called at the end of this video. But why would I be a human when I could be literally anything else.
I think an Emblem giving all my dudes +6/+6 Trample and Haste isn't bad. Garruk only does +3/+3 and his doesn't stick around.
I’ve actually played D&T with MH2 at two FNM yet
I still think dungeons would have worked as a land type. Have them tap for colorless/1 color, then have a “Quest” you need need to complete to flip it into its complete version with extra mana like more colors or extra mana, then an effect for completing the dungeon
This is how Dungeons work in my Zelda set. They have a mechanic (also called venture, go figure) where creatures can tap to add a counter to them, then you can activate an ability and remove counters for some benefit. Representing exploring a place and bringing out treasure or items. I think the downside is the Dungeons feel less like an ordeal, but the upside is there are a lot more you can represent, and some fun interactions with creatures.
I didn't think about using DFCs, but it's probably a good idea since people don't like counters on lands.
I wish they had added Party mech to the set and dungeon card interaction to the effect that if you venture with a party, the dungeon effect is enhanced. or something.
They have. It's going to be in the set. Just because there are dungeons, it doesn't mean there are not Parties.
@@PleasantKenobi Unfortunately they said on Thursday stream that there are no party related mechanics in this set.
www.twitch.tv/videos/1066493726?t=00h48m56s
@@pytawidmo From what I heard, the dev team for this set got offered the chance to use the party mechanic, and turned it down.
@@PleasantKenobi Hopes Up...
I mean...clearly there's like 22 dungeons from the number on the bottom, if not more
The dungeons are token cards (as indicated by the T right of the number), so the first 19 will probably be normal token cards and emblems
as a standard player i dont care about horizons anways so JAEH FINALY new set so long since last :)
Zones that opponents cant interact with, thats just a recipe for feelbads. As soon as someone finds a way to venture infinitely its "choose your wincon from your sideboard". Obviously we dont know the potential of venture cards yet, but mechanics that exist in non-interactable zones are *very* easy to break. Companion was (hopefully) more extreme, but I understand the comparison. I usually have to think about yugioh, which invented new zones for cards that dont have to be in your deck and practically are always available once you need them - which is akin to this.
Well, if you take a step back it's just a triggered ability that's modal and the dungeons are used to reference what effect you get. They're no less interactable than any other creature with an ETB or activated ability etc, and Magic is already filled with a bazillion ways to win the game once you can repeat an effect infinitely. I don't think there's much to be worried about tbh.
@@Hitzel You are completely right, consider my rant to be a critique of the problematic that can be caused by new zones rather than me saying "Venture is defnitely broken".
@@SWAT6809 Ah gotcha, that makes sense. Future exploration in this kind of direction can definitely be problematic.
I just want to know what happens when you build an Adventure deck in day 1 Limited. You won't have cards for all three, I guarantee it, unless they are all automatically included in the Prerelease pack. But you have access to all three regardless, according to the Mechanics article on the site.
My biggest annoyance is mechanics like this and Lessons and Party that are made and specifically slated for Limited... and then have Mythics associated with them, when Mythics are specifically made to not be seen in Limited. They are rarely good enough to put in anything, including commander, especially when the majority of the cards are just garbage and there will likely never be another card with the mechanic (not even in Modern Horizons).
BG riff yessssss
I feel like you're VASTLY underestimating how these Dungeon cards will work. We're likely to see 4 of them in the 4 commander deck products, probably three of these 4, and every pack will have a Dungeon card slot so it takes up a rather small meaningful chunk of what you open for the set. I was kind of hoping that they'd have mentioned if we're getting more Zendikar Returns Again (Yes I forgot the name of the set) Party mechanics, since it would be pretty fun to have a party mechanic that cares about venturing through the dungeon(s) you might have. I think that it'll end up being about as relevant to now as the Energy Mechanic from Kaladesh, where it seems like it's a way to push cards a bit further but unfortunately doesn't really exist outside of standard rotation.
We're NOT going to see any more of these in the Commander decks accompanying AFR, MaRo has explicitly confirmed that these 3 are all that they're making.
@@matthewyoho5422 Wow, what a fuck-up and a bloody waste of a mechanic then. This is Meld all over again.
The main/only thing that bothers me about dungeons is the... Not sure how to phrase it, mechanical ubiquity? As far as I understand it you can choose any of the three Dungeons to venture into. They exist independently from any deck building. They're complex effects but it feels bad that no other set would be able to introduce more dungeons without totally ruining the balance.
(Also unsure of what to do with the Dungeon + venture mechanic in my custom Zelda set that's like 4 years in progress, but it was gonna happen sooner or later)
Mechanics don't need to have room to expand. It's a myth. "Parasitic design" is the buzz word your looking for. People keep saying it, but no one seems to be able to explain what the problem is.
Instead of adding more Dungeons, they could instead have a variant of this, like assembling contraptions. That was they don't risk breaking these wide open sometime in the future by accident.
@@PleasantKenobi So do you think the variants would have the same type, "Dungeon?" Idk I know it doesn't really matter, I just think it would be cool to have a bunch of different dungeons for flavor reasons. That's really all that bothers me tbh.
Just consume product, then get excited for next product!
Looks like a cute gimmick that everyone will have forgotten about in 6 months
Unfortunately, as someone who was hype as hell for dungeons, I'm super down on these cause as I looked them over, I thought of several different ways I would make this mechanic more fun and flavorful over timid choices they made, and so in their current state they leave me cold.
I dont want to come across as too harsh here, but your statement comes across a little arrogant. I am interested though, how wpuld you improve it?
@@PleasantKenobi To be fair, fun and flavorful is my opinion, but I can see how that statement would read.
I pondered on either tying progression to the party mechanic/composition (When X type of creature enters the battlefield, advance to the next chamber) and/or having them be a subset of sagas which would allow for some form of interaction.
If I was designing these things, and I knew I was only getting 3 (Personally, I think they could've done at least double that, if not more), I'd likely do the Demonweb Pits (With Elf and Spider anthem paths) which ties to old school D&D stuff and Lolth, Castle Ravenloft (Undead support with a side path to snag/create a Sword or like, board wipe black cards or something) since Curse of Strahd is the most popular 5e module, and I unno, Crenshenibon the Crystal Shard or something (Blue effects centering around mind control) for that distinctly Forgotten Realms dungeon and then you set it up so that progression not only produces different effects, but leads to nicer rewards, and successful completion also like produces a treasure every turn (Because you should get some loot for completing a dungeon) or it makes an emblem that produces a unique thematic effect for the dungeon's successful finish. I also would've been interested in dungeons as curses that inflict conditions on your opponent and how they built their deck affects how they progress through, with them receiving a reward at the end for successfully completing the dungeon you've imposed on them.
Now granted, these could be set in a way to be broken, but I think if the cards actually took up deck space and/or could be interacted with, that would balance that a bit.
As it is, I feel like they played it too safe with the design on this one.
Yay. Using the command zone in 60 card. Because every format MUST be commander....
Dungeons AND dragons? In THIS economy?
not gonna lie... I want a creature that lets you venture with a landfall trigger.
I've been playing a boros learn deck.
I dunno! It seems cool, but it could be especially broken if there *are* those extremely pushed cards
The main difference between lessons and these is that with lessons you had to still cast the card, when you enter a dungeon you just start getting free vaule right away. Every deck will run these, even if you don't play the cards that get the dungeons. You can bluff that you do, since they don't take up sideboard slots. It's basically the snow situation before we had some hate.
And if any of the eneblers are good R.I.P old formats Small advantage is still a advantage. There is literally NO reason not to run these.
I dunno Vince, my subscribe button can’t take much more smashing
Wait there's only 3 dungeons??? I figured there would be at least a few more :(
Three _that have been revealed so far._ Note also there three shown here had Red, Green, and Black colors in them, respectively. It seems unlikely there wouldn't be White and Blue colored dungeons, to complete the color pie.
Tazri desires more party enjoyers to recruit. Maybe more anti-tribal support.
Very upset The Death House of Barovia did not get a dungeon.
We're barely into spoiler season, my guess is that we will.
@@Eric_The_Cleric Unfortunately they announced alongside the mechanic announcement that these will be the only 3 dungeons at least from this set, and you will have all 3 dungeons available at all times. the all 3 kinda cuts off opportunity for it- but there's no doubt we'll see some strahd characters and maybe a Barovia land or something.
@@TheTunaSaladin well then that's a bit of BS ngl. Beggars can't be choosers though, I guess. I'm just excited to see how the dungeons we are getting play ngl. Theyre flavorful and seem pretty fun, even if there are only three max.
@@Eric_The_Cleric Oh hard agree, insanely hyped for the dungeons, just unfortunate- maybe in dndset 2: this time it's personal
@@TheTunaSaladin *looks at DnD set pt. 2 electric boogaloo* this is getting out of hand, now there are two of them!
Joking aside, though, I think I am going to design myself up a few dungeons to play alongside decks for full flavor value. Maybe I'll be able to just outright create a full dungeon delving deck for the memes and have plenty of dungeons to choose from. Of course they're not going to be allowed in constructed competitive play, but 1. I don't think dungeons are meant for that and 2. the mechanic is too flavorful not to have that kind of fun with. More official dungeons would totally be dope.
Three cards that everyone will need? *cough* secret lair fodder *cough*
These will be oversized cards which will be in EVERY single prerelease kit, if i recall correctly
@@gabrieljalbert6026 Three foil double-sided Dungeon cards in the Prerelease Pack, the Bundle Box gets the three oversized cards...
They are token cards, so I think it would be fine to just print them yourself. Or print them on a playmat if you want.
@@robinp40 tbh we should all just proxy secret lairs
Feel free to take my hot take Vince,
Three (snow, lesson, dungeon) parasitic sets in a row. All purposely low power level.
That is the smoke they put the FIRE design phase out with; an entire rotation under power. Eldraine takes all power with it when it goes.
FIRE design to punch power down through the formats straight into legacy, horizons to rotate every formats top tier of decks, feeling out which levers to pull and what lines to cross.
Then, back-to-back tribal sets in Innistrad, the playerbase's all time favorite tribal plane, and the delicious smell of phyrexian oil lingering in the air the whole time.
After FIRE power designs and 5-color-nonsense, and after the parasitic neato whizbang cool down period; we get color-identity focused tribalism in innistrad as it mends only to be invaded by phyrexia and its no-color-designs.
Be hype.
Boulders Gate, thé nistolgia
Just think the ban of Lurrus was out if place in vintage. Good, but not in the degenerate way in legacy, just in "fair decks". Too easy too use for use, but I think it was fine there tbh even pre errata
For sure*
It was basically used to recur seals for example, not the wild LED play patterns in legacy. I get it, lotus Lurrus lotus. Strong, but you d it didn't get 90% storm, but fair decks.
The fact that now no one plays it says it all. 3 extra mana is not much to combo out with it, while for fair decks it is indeed
please, wizards, add complicated rules for every new set. it will be so much fun to see how nobody knows how to play modern in 2040
It's literally just a saga emblem. We've always had complicated mechanics that are super confusing. The phasing & banding of yesteryears to the mutate & companions of today.
Iirc Hasbro does own Monopoly....
Omg the most annoying aspect of BG lol getting stuck in a doorway lol.
These are going to be too confusing to keep track of on both player's sides. They remind me too much of contraptions from the unset, With all the dungeon abilities, the planeswalker reminds me of Urza, also from the unset. This really isn't going to be something I like
Dungeons? is that some sort of goblin slayer reference?
I feel like wotc should have gone with this reminder text instead of a token card: www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/o7v7am/for_the_dungeon_venturing_mechanics_i_thought/
I need more F bombs, Vince! It’s just that simple...
Tbh, buying mh2 singles completely stripped my MtG budget.
Edit: well, maybe I'll buy 2-3 of the most standout Forgotten Relams singles? 😅
Edit 2: Please have a low powered set, for the mercy of my wallet 😭
d&d monopoly, isn't that just playing culdcept?
Gauntlet
Look everyone will like different things and that’s fine I’m happy for those who like it personally not a fan of it in mtg but then again I’m just sick of having to have a new mechanic every set it’s so unnecessary just reuse some of the old ones
I’m guessing you will also only be able to venture into the same dungeon once per game otherwise tomb of annihilation could end up being a little pushed
Why? Triggering it three times to get the effects doesn't seem easy, and taking the "shortcut" costs a lor
Nope, you can go back into the same dungeon an infinite number of times per game of Magic, if your deck can generate infinite venture triggers - the only upper bounds is the number of "different" dungeons you can complete (because there's only these 3).
I would fucking LOVE a Monopoly dungeon. It'd give me an excuse to use my 11 copies of Monopoly that no one will play with me.
that damn dreamworks-looking beholder is really bothering me!
like your video, do not like this path Hasbro has gone down.
Dungeon mecanic: stupid
Wotc for taking mtg outside the feel of mtg: idiotic
PK obscuring into dust like a dry fart on the beach: priceless 😂🤣