In other words, Eowyn's character arc isn't demonstrating that Tolkien thinks women should be healers and gardeners. It's demonstrating that Tolkien thinks *people* should be healers and gardeners.
Faramir and Eowyn are even an inversion of a popular, if unfortunate, romance trope: bitter, jaded warrior meets sensitive idealist who teaches them how to hope and love at the same time... except our bitter jaded warrior is Eowyn and Faramir is the bookish sweetheart.
I’ll admit I had the hardest time with Eowyn as my favorite character growing up. At age 14 I couldn’t understand why my beloved Shieldmaiden who finally won her place among the Riders would give it all up because she met some guy. Then coming back to Tolkien in my 30s with some more life experience things started to make more sense. A few of the Discworld novels actually helped as well believe it or not. In one of his book Sir Terry Pratchett takes that phrase of what you want vs what you need and adds what you think you ought to want. Eowyn, and myself for that matter, I think were very much stuck in that ‘what I think I ought to want’ because culture, life circumstance, and mental health. Eowyn’s pain and trauma had gone hugely unnoticed by her family and those closest to her for a long time so by the time of Pelanor Fields a glorious death is the only way out she sees, Aragorn was just the last straw in my opinion. So when she comes to the Houses of Healing and Faramir is first person to really ask her ‘what do *you* want?’ And she’s finally able to think about that without any outside pressure. Myself when I turned 18 wanted to join the army but was talked out of it by my godfather (he was a Vietnam veteran) who knew I would get myself killed trying to be GI Jane, then ending up in a bad spot with a group of people and I thought it was what I was hard fighting and hard drinking etc but it was a worse place than any I had been in my life. Then a man comes along and asks me those same questions while I am healing away from all that and here I am now a carpenter building things with my husband and son. To say I think that calling Eowyn a feminist character dumbed down a sexist author is more than skewed is an understatement to say the least.
Tolkien is the measure of how not to be sexist: - Eowyn is strong and goes against the norms - Arwen is respected and admired - Galadriel is one of the oldest and strongest characters - Luthien is a great character who has even more power than her love Beren
@@pianogang2273 yeah and I am really bothered about this. For Tolkien was all about strong female characters (even if they are fewer in numbers than men, but who cares? He wrote from a WWI perspective after all)
@@laura-bianca3130 Yeah! And what about Idril and Elwing (I am reading the HoME series so the names might not be correct)?! Idril helped many hundreds by devising the Secret Tunnel, and Elwing brought the Silmaril to Eärendil which helped him defeat Ancalagon! : )
Ugh! This nonsense idea that women must be identical to men simply must stop! You did an excellent job of correcting this misguided criticism. How can anyone see the self-destructive path she was on and think that it was sexist for her character to heal from that deep depression? I've said this about Arwen, but it holds true for Eowyn as well: the real sexism is that anyone actually believes that the only way a woman can be strong, courageous, a leader, or a valuable person is if she turns her back on all things feminine and becomes a warrior. Hogwash! Strong women can have the ability to fight and the willingness to fight if circumstances necessitate it. But, there is unbelievable strength is nurturing, healing, growing, and (in the case of Arwen) crafting. Tolkien didn't write many female characters, but just look at the ones he did give us! They were amazing! Not a one if them was treated like she was ignorant. Not one of them was treated as if she was little more than an incubator. Even minor female characters show hope, wisdom, strength of character, a strong sense of self. The whole argument that Tolkien must be sexist because his medeval-esque story isn't full of battled-hardened, war-hungry females is itself ignorant, sexist poppycock. (And one of these days, I may go back to the Arwen video and rewrite my rant there that glitched when I tried to post it. It was much the same as this, but with specifics about her private crafting of the King's standard, and what that means about her. As a hand-crafter, I have personal insight into things non-crafting readers miss.)
Wonderfully said. As a woman, this forcing of the “strong female character” (who is actually flat and annoying) drives me nuts! Write complex characters with character arcs. Period. Full stop. An agenda that creates cookie-cutter characters isn’t really satisfying to anyone if one goes to fiction for awesome characters that feel real instead of flat token characters. Ugh. I’m repeating myself. You said it so much better than I! 👍
If a woman character is written to embody more masculine traits though it should be just as accepted as your own ideals of what makes a well written female character. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Nothing is being forced; you just have your own ideals like other people and are unwilling to see it objectively. You say you’re tired of cookie cutter string female characters but would have every female character be a damsel in distress with all of the most traditionally feminine traits of the western canon. We can have both.
That's it? Flip a coin and choose your woman! Will she be Warrior Woman, indistinguishable from men or will she be a damsel in distress? Eowyn is a much more complex character. I don't have "ideals" that I am adhering to. I simply grasp the several dozen nuances of her character and believe that Tolkien gave her character the healing she needed. He didn't box her up and send her back to Rohan to be nothing more than some wife. And let's be clear: she was definitely seeking a husband when she crushed on Aragorn. She wanted to be a wife. But since he chose madness over reason with the Paths of the Dead, she chose to run towards death for herself. Then, she woke up from dark dreams to find him alive and still not interested in her as anything more than a patient. She was still crushing on him and he was still going off on a hopeless task which left her full of melancholy. Tolkien could easily have left her character as a loose end or just given her a little afterthought mention. No. This hurting woman who had grown up surrounded by death and caught in a position with no power to change her situation had chosen a suicide mission and lived. But her head-space hadn't changed. Then Sauron was defeated and it's like the last lingering memory of her dark dreams went with him and her head cleared. Marrying Faramir and being the wife of the Steward of the High King of Gondor, releasing the pain of her past, being cleansed of her suicidal urge to dare fate in battle, THAT is her "Undying Lands" healing. She wasn't out there on the fields of Pelenor because she loved a good bloodbath. She wasn't a warrior woman to start with. And trying to make her one is just forcing her to be something she wasn't. She was a woman driven to war. That is a very different thing. I stand by my original post. I'm not the one who has "ideals." I'm the one who has read the whole book dozens of times for decades and sees a complete picture of Eowyn as a character. She wasn't a warrior. She wasn't a damsel in distress. She was neither. She was so much more.
Healing is more a feminine strength than is fight/war, but the true king/queen must have all the strengths: the masculine (to rule and protect) and feminine (to heal and grow). Yet, it is the ability to heal that reveals a righful ruler.
Eowyn's arc is an obvious progression, I like her story, because it moves from one stance that many have of the misunderstanding of over glorifying war and adventure, to a more grounded reality, with Faramir. Faramir, if you remember did not seek conflict, or glory, but only took the call to arms because it was his duty. Like Eowyns love of Aragorn, she loves a shadow of a thought, she does not truly love Aragorn, but what in her mind represents a great warrior, he seeks death and glory, but what Aragorn, and Faramir show her is that, love and glory is not only in death and destruction, but a greater more lasting love is in life, and creation.
Eowyn was on a death wish and if anything Tolkien was going against the tropes: her desire for Aragorn almost drove her to madness and death. She was being mentally crushed by the expectations of being a shield-maiden of Rohan and through her interactions with Faramir discovered a better way of living: she and Faramir will help restore the troubled lands of Ithelian and pave the way for the future. Also, all the important female characters in Tolkien's works were able, brave and smart women: Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, Luthien, Melian, Yavanna. They were treated with a dignity that you would rarely see in today's works of fiction, plus they had story arcs just as complicated as any of the male characters in Tolkien's books, especially Galadriel and Melian.
Tolkien Geek, well done! I think you're absolutely right about Eowyn and about the supposed "sexism" in Tolkien's works. Like Tolkien himself, I think Eowyn was suffering from PTSD due to the harrowing years of watching Theoden decline and being unable to do anything about it. What she needed was therapy--enough understanding and fruitful conversation to allow her heart to be healed. She couldn't get this from Aragorn due to circumstances. When she and Merry fulfilled the prophecy about the Witch King, then she was forced to heal in body, which also put her in the right time and place to heal in soul. She finally was able to open up with Faramir, as you rightly point out. She was able to heal and to want to turn her talents to healing and growing things (family with her new husband may also be implied). Excellent argument as usual, my friend. Namarie.
25:10 - This is how I assumed most read Éowyn's "change of heart" in The Houses of Healing. Instead of yearning for battle, there's a shift to the better things as you say. Though, I've rarely engaged with the Tolkien's work is sexist crowd... While I think the Houses of Healing chapter perhaps provides this shift with a bit of haste, I do agree with you when you say that it elevates her character. We aren't meant to lament the fact she no longer wants to ride into battle..,
Well said. Tolkien always seemed to cherish the simple things in life over any sort of grand excitement or glory (although there was always room for a little adventure!). I always found it interesting how Eowyn sought glory like Boromir did and both suffered for it. It makes me wonder if, had Boromir lived, Faramir might have been able to show his brother what's really important in life like he did for Eowyn. While the threat of Sauron existed I don't really see Boromir being swayed, but in peaceful times under Aragorns rule he might have been more receptive.
I LOVE this! Eowyn seemed more concerned with “glory” and not so concerned with defending her country. The 8 surviving members of the Fellowship were all concentrating on helping Middle Earth, not on obtaining individual glory. She always seemed selfish and spoiled to me. Wanting to die because her pretend boyfriend wasn’t interested made me wonder why the people of Rohan trusted her so much. And, when she snuck into battle, who was left to rule? Also, in the books, I believe she and Aragorn only had one conversation. She was lucky that she found her calling and found Faramir.
@@kayfairchild5005 I can understand to some extent what brought Eowyn to that way of thinking, she was forced to wait on an increasingly feeble old man all her life and had no outlet for her own wishes. So I'm not surprised she'd cling to any chance at fulfillment through glory. It's just that according to Tolkien (and I'm inclined to agree), you won't find fulfillment in glory.
Thank you for this video. My change of heart regarding Eowyn (having not thought about this in quite some time) changed and healed my own heart, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this. I still find it funny that I once thought her ending was defeat, despite gaining someone who loved her for herself and had a garden kingdom, but never thought it a shame that Sam put aside his sword for his own smaller garden kingdom. And in such things, your own poison of Saruman can be leeched from your system.
Very interesting video, Tolkien Lore. I never realised the connection between farameir and Tolkien, the numinorians and the theme of healing and nurturing. The message that war is an ugly necessity and it would be wise not to glorify it. I love that message, personally. Your talk also made me realise the similarity between elves and numinorians is reflected in their more nurturing and wise nature. This is in contrast to other men, who are more war-like and destructive. Even if, as you said, the Gondorians have deviated from this wisdom in later days, in characters such as Farameir and Aragon, it is still there
The real problem with men is that the Valar sat around twiddling their thumbs in Valinor, giving Morgoth free rein to corrupt them as they first awoke.
I don't think Eowyn is a feminist even in her conversation with Aragorn. She says she should not have to stay with the women because she is from the House of Eorl and not a serving woman.
If you look at the history of feminist movements, you will find them rife with snobbery and often racism. Eowyn's entitlement here is actually very indicative of the English suffragettes who didn't want common men to have the vote before they did (even though those men were subject to conscription) or American suffragettes who didn't want to lack the vote when they saw black men would get it.
@@waltonsmith7210 if her uncle and brother would have been slain, it would have been on Eowyn to lead the eored. And she feared that. She had lost her parents, was sexually harrassed by Grima, had to see how her cousin died slowly. And during that time, her brother was banished and her uncle under a curse. She was fearing what would come. So during the Battle of the Hornburg, she wanted to fight, because she feared to witness to loose her last relatives. She wanted to die. The same thing with the ride of the Rohirim. It is from her perspective a suicide attack and that is the reason, why she joins the attack. She believed that the war was lost. And she feared what would happen to her, when the armies would be slain. So she wanted to ride out, fight and die. As that would be the better end, than slavery in the black lands.
We are observing an individuation process in the case of Eowyn and shows the extend of Tolkien’s comprehension of human kind. Of course this is way beyond the comprehension of ideological pawns that price their narcissist views over actual enlightenment. As a woman that deeply relates to Eowyn (I have been in the exact situation of feeling caged, having really high aspirations and rejecting being told what to do from as long as I have memory) also going through a phase desiring death, maybe is the process of aging and learning and confronting your delusions but now even though I have accomplished a lot as a woman in the stem world, my deepest desire is to build a homestead and retire to a garden and animals, something I would have never thought I would enjoy, ever. The end take here is that, a simple life should be what we praise and desire above all else and see it as a glorious end.
Thank you for pulling out the thread about gardeners in LOTR. How much was Eowyn's state of mind related to her likelihood of being handed over to Grima? This was a situation she was in because she was a woman in Rohan. It wasn't wasn't the only thing making her want to die because it continued even after Mordor's defeat. However, it's possible she couldn't want to live until she was sure she would be in a benevolent situation.
While Tolkien has very few incidental female characters that's sort of the point. There are few incidental characters at all, most people that are named are involved in battles. The Silmarillion is much richer with powerful female characters and gives context to Galadriel. As a modern woman I appreciate that Eowyn was ultimately able to accept love and acceptance for who she is with Faramir.
primary characters: Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippen. are introduced in the beginning- Gandalf comes back from Hobbit book. L. Sackvielle Baggins and Odo (male and Female) antagonists (tons of hobbits introduced in party) (both male and female) Ham Gamgee. Galdor Inglorian Elf guide Old man Willow (a Tree) Tom & GoldBerry (Male and Female) Black Ridders (9) Buterbur, (also Nob& Bob) Strider/Aragorn Glorfindal Elrond Gloin Boromir, Legolas, Gimli. Haldir, Galadrial, Celeborn (elf scout, Elf Queen and King) Two Towers Eomer and his Erod (men) Theoden (King), Hama (not so good gate guard) Grima (antagonist) Eowyen Ugluge&Grishnaka (male orcs) Treebeard, Quickbeam and Co. Saruman (primary antagonist) (Gollum/Smeagol) Primary antagonist (Faramir) capt. Shelob (female Spider)
I think you covered it very well. In fact, I hadn't considered before the Sam angle, that Faramir regards highly such a person, REGARDLESS of race or gender. I think you were very thorough and quite correct in your evaluation of the matter.
There’s an interesting essay I once read called “Tolkien’s Heathen Feminist” by Karl E.H. Siegfried which goes into detail about how Eowyn was most likely inspired by female figures in Norse mythology such as the valkyrie Brunhild, which in turn serves as a reflection of pre-Christian Nordic views towards women.
@@4279becca except that's simply not true, there were some clear and well defined gender roles for men and women, and intruding on the other gender's role was seen a big no-no. Not only that but Eowyn's lust for battle and honor ultimately wasn't presented as a desirable thing, quite on the contrary it came from arrogance, selfishness and neglect, which is the point of her having to overcome it. Analysis like that are surface level at best and grossly incorrect at worst.
@@leonardomarquesbellini Having different roles in society does not negate the idea of the genders being equal though. Lets say you have a society where only men can be millers and only women can be blacksmiths and the idea of anyone doing the other role is so unthinkable that attempting to do so is likely to get you banished at best. Does that mean that one group is lesser than the other? No, of course not. Both can be valued equally. Of course, this doesn't necessarily apply to the Norse cultures, I'm simply pointing out that 'rigid gender roles' does not translate to 'men and women are not societal equals'.
That sounds interesting, thank you for suggesting it. I always took her role in terms of the deeds of war (as well as Theoden's) as a bit of Tolkien rewriting The Battle of Maldon (as he had strong opinions of it, clearly) but certainly very much in the vein of the Germanic warrior.
@erindunn6689 bleh 🤮🤮🤮 “heathen feminism” lmao. I always came & went as I pleased. It was great cuz I went away to college and saw these ppl who were finally released from being policed who failed out lol.
Hi. Great video, which covered most the topic as comprehensive as I could imagine. I'd like to add it could be useful to quickly weed out the relevant Jackson differences: •. Firstly at Dunharrow, I don't remember anyone schooling Eowyn about 'the nature of war is for men' in the books. I felt like book Eowyn and Aragorn were speaking past each other, however. The Eomer movie scene appeared to be about the pretentious finger wagging down to Eowyn - fuel for her feminist furnace. After being caged by Grima and dumped by Chad Aragorn, this is her new justification to show the men how it's done. Lol. •. Secondly. It's my impression that the presence of Jackson's Gandalf¹, Faramir², and Merry³ were mitigated, for various reasons. This had the effect that it put Eowyn in a uniquely authoritative position. This lead her overall role to over-compensate. Thus, she dramatically rose and fell, as opposed to having a redemptive character development. Movie Eowyn: 1.) Sexual abuse victim and sexism. 2.) Rise into singlehandedly³ killing a demi god. More powerful¹ than a Balrog-Killing, White Wizard. 3.) Descendt. Eowyn is now the wife of the former steward's second son². No development of love². Faramir is partially an insecure, violent jerk². They conveniently² hold hands and smile. Her ending feels a bit hollow, like a cage. Jackson's version explicitly tell the heroine not to fight, because a seemingly nonsense reason and unwanted sexual advances. Additionally, by the mitigation of other relevant characters, it makes sense why a misguided audience might misjudge Tolkien for breaking a feminist hero. In sum: I like the video, so this is misc. It could be worth to quickly dispel a few more alterations, relevant to Eowyn, by Jackson. Changes that didn't exist in Tolkien's books. Thank you.
I absolutely loved this video! You're one of the, if not the best Tolkien channel(s) on TH-cam. That being said, I kinda wish you'd have added a word about the White Tree on the topic of Minas Tirith being revegetalized after the War of the Ring ;) . Actually, we could expand that to how Minas Tirith in its entirety is basically a diminished, more austere and military-oriented version of the Minas Anor of old, which plays along your words on the decay of Gondor.
Being a woman these days I have the notion that it isn't acceptable anymore to do anything that is considered feminine in a traditional sense, when you are a woman yourself. It is quite sad and disturbing to see, that it is more important what sex/gender you are than what kind of person you are and want to be.
Nyuchannokawaii, AGREED. Feminist women (specifically) are quick to bash other women who enjoy living under “traditional feminine” roles or doing “traditionally feminine” things, whatever that really means. They think it’s in opposition to their feminist agenda/movement. I could care less what these feminist think. I enjoy being a “feminine” woman. Lmbo. I do me. “Traditionally” or not.
@@waltonsmith7210 No one. But your answer shows the problem: You cannot define (and be proud) as something that is considered "traditional feminine" as a woman anymore, because there is always someone saying "What is feminine anyway?" There are still some people who like the traditional roles of man and woman without bashing those people who do not like these old role models. It would be nice if people could voice their opinion without any comments about how these people are part of a problem. The problem are those people who actively and aggressively work against any people that consider themselves as "different". And different doesn't mean in any term bad or ugly. It just means different.
@@nyuchannokawaii traditional? Sounds an awful lot like sexism. You mean the traditional roles of women when they couldn’t vote, hold down a job, or contribute to society without the approval of men. No one is stopping you from being a stay at home mom/housewife. Plenty of women still do it. You and people like you however seem dead set on perpetuating your own absurd ideas that any notion of “traditional femininity” is being attacked. Nope...in fact women in the western world have it the best they’ve ever had it. You’re just insecure. Be feminine, be masculine. No one gives a shit. Just live your life and let other women live there’s. They don’t have any obligation to be held up at home, or wear make up, or cook, or marry or have kids.
All of which is to say, well done sir. The world needs more Faramirs and Eowyns. Tolkien was a far sighted genius with a deep intyitive understanding of human nature. I'm pleased to know that i loved Faramir most of all the characters in LotR long before I knew that it was Faramir Tolkien most identified with. Still looking for my Eowyn.
I find this interesting, in the sense that to the ancient Germanic and Celtic peoples, war and creation were on the same level, both the bard and the chief warrior flanked the king's sides. The smith was as great as the soldier, and even their protector gods were often associated with art and creation as much as war and destruction.
When you take into consideration that Tolkien's personal social conventions were developed during the Victorian Era, his novel was mostly written by a middle age professor right before and during the 2nd World War, Eowyn's raw courage, more than most, against the Witch King is a shining example of women's empowerment.
This is a very good evaluation of her situation. She cannot see the truth that the people have chosen her, she only sees that the role was not one of the warrior. Her healing was in her spirit so she realized that there is glory in her people’s love for her.
Consider Tolkien's personal experiences from World War I. "Dorothy Lawrence was an English journalist who posed as a male soldier in order to report from the front line during World War I. She was the only known British woman soldier on the frontline during World War I."
'He thought before the war Of conflicts, heroism, enemies Who had to be crushed; Causes that had to be fought for. He had no time before the war For bright skies, fields, the warm sun, his woman - only Causes that had to be fought for. I see him now after the war In my lifetime. I notice his love Of the sun, bright skies, fields, his woman: Causes that have to be fought for.'
About the Elves are bringing & planting trees thing: Last year I saw a documentary about trees in which they re-enacted and told about how America and Great Britain actually DID this for Germany after World War 2 in 1948; especially for Berlin! 😊 They delivered oak trees and such via plane! Edit: I found the link, it's German of course, but right at the beginning: th-cam.com/video/wXgvxooJaPE/w-d-xo.html
Feminism is all about women's free and uncensored self determination - and that is exactly what is shown in the books. We are what we want to be at the time right for us. Warriors, healers, immortal or not etc. I really don't see the conflict. Forcing Eowyn to join the army when she wants to be a healer or keeping her from changing when she has decided to change ... that's not feminism.
P.S. And keeping up with the status quo of what feminism is, just to look feminist at the price of your self-determination is oh so sad and is not feminist as well.
A woman killed the either the third or fourth most potent enemy of the third age and likely on of the top 30 or so of the entire history of Middle Earth, and some of those self-destructed (Ungoilant), were killed at the cost of one's own death (every balrog seen killed, i.e. Gothmog, the Balrog in the pass that killed Glorfindel, and the Balrog of Moria), were killed through subtle or overwhelming force though at great cost of lives (Glaurong, Scatha, Smaug, Ancalagon,) were defeated by "divine" intervention (Morgoth,) or by means of being weakened in an explicable or inexplicable means (Sauron and Saruman). Second oldest to Sauron was the threat of the Witch King, and second only to him was the destruction that he perpetrated. She did what no man, dwarf, or elf had ever hoped to accomplish. She cut the head of his beast straight off with one strike!! Come on, the fact that she later decides that these things are enough and it is time to settle down and raise a family is not demeaning at all!! Did she need to wear the Ring, cast down the Dark Lord in his tower, belch the remaining Eight out of existence, kick down the Towers of the Teeth, wad up the Black Gate, and extinguish the fires of Mount Doom itself before feminists are satisfied that she is woman? Do we not think that a mere look from her would get people moving or send children to bed quietly? "If you do not behave, we will go talk to the Steward's wife. You remember what she did to the Witch King when he crossed her don't you? Think of what she will do to naughty little children who get in the way of her more important tasks!!" Poor woman likely had people building shines and images to her all over Mordor, Gondor, and Arnor. Talk about being excruciatingly careful to never forget an anniversary or birthday, not to mention never straying too far from her side, Faramír was likely the perfect husband!! Why? She was likely his equal in combat and strength!! He has no feat that is comparable to hers!! Let that poor woman raise her family and realm in peace!! 😁
Thank you for recomending this video, im glad tolkein understood that war is no place for women, and had eowyn agnowlage that after turning from her mistakes of riding into battle.
Just a couple of comments. I am definitely impressed with Faramir being personality-wise more of a Healer and definitely having great insight. Somewhere around 15 minutes you knocked it not only out of the park but out of our galaxy. And 2 comments I guess about Sam and gardening perhaps his love of gardening and nurture was what allowed him to we resist the ring better than Boromir could have. Perhaps that was also why Frodo had some resistance to the ring as well. And wasn't Adam as the first man a nurturer and gardener.? Tolkien Lore Channel you get bonus points if you know the answer to this one without looking it up do you know who Edwin Starr was? It's pertinent to one of your comments.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You almost quoted Edward's star when you said War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Likely you did not intend that but the song War was one of his number one hits.
16:36 _"for the great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad, for all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad"_ Tolkien : that's Anglo-Saxons, not Gaels, your philology is off, Chesterton! Faramir : mad indeed
Everything in Middle Earth is constantly fading. Heroes may emerge and win victories against the fading of their lands' glory and the rise of evil, but they are the least important thing. The strength of good is the unsung folks who cooperate to care for each other and have no urge to greatness. They just want to do their part, and their part is what keeps things running and fends off evil in the long term Eowyn's not a hero. She knows she isn't the physical equal of men, and isn't expecting to win anything. She just won't stand by if she can contribute in any way. She's a kindred spirit to Merry, who feels exactly the same way. When her part in great deeds is no longer needed, she no longer has any need to fight and becomes two of the things Tolkien considered the highest callings - healing others and being connected to the world by collaborating with the earth itself to produce food that helps others. She's not suddenly being repressed and giving up her individuality. She's living the best life Tolkien could give her. She's not a flash in the pan that flares bright and then disappears. She's one of us.
Excuse me for being off topic. I wonder if you have ever made a movie about Frodo's dreams and/or the visions he has in the mirror of Galadriel? What are the meaning of them? What are they saying to him? It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts and analyzes of all his visions. And why did they come to him when they did?
7:02 I would not pronounce it e-ORL. I would pronounce it E-orl. Why? Bc Rohirric = basically = Anglo-Saxon (spec. Old Mercian). Now, in AS, eo is a falling diphthong, basically like Greek eu, but ending closer to -o than to -w.
Aragorn is the greatest healer of all the humans, Sam is the most wonderful character, and he spends a chapter more or less healin and sowing in the lands of Shire. I imagine Eowyn and Faramir spent the rest of their lives doing what must be done after war and ockupation: healing, replanting and rebuilding the lands of Ithilien. Also after reading about Edith Bratt I realised she was as much an inspiration for Eowyn as for Luthien.
Why are "healing powers" associated to women?. All the museums I've visited that have an exhibition associated to different Latin American indigenous cultures always have a male chaman. Also, Elrond heals Frodo, right?. To be honest, I simply think it's a cool power and that's all that matters.
I read other feminists who on the contrary praised the book version of Eowyn. First for telling Aragorn how women are essentially treated in general (Even though you said that Aragorn also says that he would like to be somewhere else, it's a fact that men in her situation do decide of the fate of the world and "tell women to keep the house and if the men die, they have leave to burn with the house". She's right on that point. BUT thanks to Faramir, she also have the opportunity to grow as a person and chose a way to gain power over her life that isn't just the traditionnaly masculine way of doing thing, finding value in what is typically seen as "feminine". This is a profound feminist message here and many of my feminists friends tend to agree with that interpretation, wich does tie in nicely with your point about "higher men" and "middle men", the later of wich aren't able to value the typically feminine aspects of life and only rely on war and physical strenght. This is a nice demonstration in Tolkien of a critique of what is today called "toxic masculinity". Of course I'm not saying Tolkien had these very concept in mind while writing, but the concept serves to illustrate a reality that Tolkien was himself also able to see and name in a different way.
It is most certainly a feminist speech, right down to the myopia and lack of empathy. While some men probably worked up the bravado to sing on the way to war, dying alone, thirsty, bleeding, and smothered in the mud was/is not a 'male privilege'. It would be even worse mentally (and according to some creeds, spiritually) if the man was certain that he had failed to protect his children and womenfolk. Some individual male elites have made stupid decisions regarding warfare, but other men, women, and children alike paid for it (that's leaving aside the horrible track record that queens have for causing conflict). Also, while the outcome of war could be Hell for the non-combatants of the losing side, this depended on the situation. Those going to war would get Hell no matter what. Eowyn didn't have a happy early life. Most people in the world don't. She had an opportunity for greatness in civic leadership, as Aragorn points out, but like most feminists, she was actually upset that she had never been cherished as a princess. She wants to end it all, and duty be damned. I'll readily agree that her early sentiments are very feminist, and her idea of war is reflective of that poorly defined 'toxic masculinity'.
27:59 CSL and Tolkien would have been a bit like Cor and Corin. CSL felt excited at the whistling of a bullet, and he took a few Germans captive (Germans who would have felt a bit like Tolkien did), but he was never a man for a "kerfuffle" (fistfight) Tolkien was a rugby player, but glad to be taken out of WW-I.
I hate to break it to people, but reality is "sexist". We've evolved to do different things than men. There's a lot of things men are better at and anybody who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves. But we create and nurture life in ways that men simply can't. That's what I always read Eowyn's story to be about: stopping chasing other people's glory, and embracing her own.
I agree with you and that's why I have a problem with all this woke movement. Why do we have to be narrowed down to be powerful in strength or just not needing anyone else to do everything? (A way in which toxic masculinity is taught) they're just pretending that we just become... men. We can't be equal but there are things that can be worked on. There are things that should not be removed from us and we should fight for it, we have to nurture and watch what kids see more than ever. I'm glad I got to hear from my little niece that LOTR is one of her favorite movies, I guess I'm making my job right.
Listening to this has been reassuring with how I'm handling some of the female characters in my stories. I'm trying to put my own spin on some of the classic fantasy races, including Orcs. (My rule is with the exception of Lovecraftian entities, no race can be 100% ugly/beautiful or good/evil.) Orcish women are physically strong but they're "Mama Bear" types of women - very nurturing but highly and ferociously protective of their children. While they do train to fight, they do so for the purpose of keeping their offspring safe, not out of a desire for glory in battle. And they are very talented gardeners. Orcish nutritional demands necessitate an agrarian lifestyle, so they're experts on cultivating both plants and animals. (Armies march on the stomach, after all.) So, even though I do have some pretty tough Orcish women in my cast, none of them are fighters exclusively and most would rather be doing other things, like gardening or raising their children.
Not formally, but I’ve spent enormous amounts of time reading Tolkien and read other people’s analysis of him so I’ve gotten a better understanding of literary analysis over time.
Eowyn wanted the chance to gain renown as a warrior. Well, she surely got that - in the league of Eorl the Young and Helm Hammerhand. I think the lord of the Nazgul easily equals a dragon. And then having achieve it, turned to other things.
I think the notion of Eowyn 'settling down' as I've seen a lot of people put it being oppressive or sexist or whatever is so superficial. I think it's far more about Tolkien's appreciation and value for creating and building and then preserving positive things, it's a much slower and less glorified process and requires a lot of self-sacrifices, but it's a much more moral and positive thing. In comparison, it's easy to destroy things, but it doesn't really put any good out into the world. It seems to be why so many of the noblest characters in the story (Galadriel, Sam, etc) are gardeners and why the white tree is a symbol of the King and the royal house, it's a positive, constructive force in the world.
Faramir has always been my hero, not Aragorn, admirable though he was, but ultimately unobtainable. And like Faramir, I loved Eowyn. For her strength, but even more for her "feminine" love. It was trapped in her because she was so f
Sorry. She was so frustrated at how low her house had fallen and felt powerless as a woman to rectify it. She was high and noble and mighty and a wonderful woman with gentle qualities trapped in her justifiable frustration and despair. When Faramir won her heart it gave me hope for humanity. A love affair second only to Beren and Lutihien in it's majesty.
@@Cathartesaurea Yeah, as a kid I had a big crush on Legolas, and admired Aragorn and Galadriel. But from teen hood and now; I gravitated toward Eowyn and deeply admire Faramir and Boromir, because they're so 'Human.' I too feel trapped because of duty to family, work, and collage. I dream of writing books, working in a library, having a husband and kids... But in this small corner, I can't find any of that. Thus, trapped till I get my degree and set out to risk failing and getting hurt again. (I had a dream job, but it fell apart in front of me fast. And I was betrayed, denied, and had to get a job I never wanted). I feel for Eowyn, including the conflicting experiences of the mainstream powerful woman, and the traditional woman. I'm stuck in the middle of them and feel doomed by both.
You do know that Eowyn is likely based on Aethelfled, eldest daughter of Alfred the Great, who ruled Mercia from 911 to 918 and was effectively regent during her husband's long illness before his death in 911. It seems to me that Faramir corresponds to Aethelred, who married Aethelfled around 882. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethelfled
Yes Tolkien probably did think healing was a feminine activity, because well...for much of history and across many cultures it is viewed that way. But that opinion would only be sexist, if one also assumed that men can't be feminine and women can't be masculine. Which Tolkien VERY CLEARLY does not do. The healing powers that Aragorn, Elrond and Elrond's sons have *are* cast as distinctly feminine: they got these powers from a woman and through female ancestors. However, their embrace of and use of these powers is represented as a strength of these characters rather than a weakness. None of them are portrayed as unmanly due to embracing their feminine side. Nor is Arwen unfeminine for NOT embracing and using these powers. Faramir's and Éowyn's virtues are both characterized as similar to their opposite sex parent: Faramir is said to get his contemplative nature from his mother Finduilas, and Éowyn's bravery is supposedly reminiscent of her father. At no point do any of the heroes consider this a bad thing. The only person who does is blatantly portrayed as ridiculous: Denethor. Oh, and did they miss the bit about how Sam is a gardener? In addition, those who interpret Éowyn's statement to mean that she is hanging up her sword for good are not reading the text carefully enough. She actually states what is changing plainly: she no longer desires battle *for the sake of glory*. That is not to say she won't fight again if it's necessary, which it almost assuredly will be. Aragorn gave Faramir the title "Prince of Ithilien", but it was an empty title in that moment. Faramir and Éowyn are going to have to besiege Minas Ithil. Now think about it: that means fighting Shelob and her brood, in addition to whatever orcs are still hanging around. Sauron and the Ringwraiths may be gone, but there's plenty of battles left to fight. When she says she will be a healer and a gardener, what Éowyn means is that she will plan for the future: that she will prioritize building something new, over destroying her enemies. This is an overall much healthier attitude towards life in general, and certainly towards warfare: for anyone, male or female.
Just a small but important distinction, the criticism you're addressing is just one voice in feminism, it's not representative of anyone but themselves. And for the commentors, while it's easy to roll our eyes at a misreading of the text, if we admire Tolkien and what he stands for, we should be above shitting on people and educate them with patience good will. There's nothing like a comment section full of hate to break the heart of a Tolkien fan.
Basicallly Faramir and through him Tolkien says that people should focus on and commit to cherishing life (healing and growing) rather than death (killing and being killed). Why should Eowin look for glory in war when she can do things much superior, things that are a sign of greats, of kings - to give and protect life, make it grow and be fruitful?
"that's historical truth"... Wonder how fast it will be before somebody comes out with the "this one culture had this one brief moment in history where it did happen" because exceptions to the rules make it super common.
Historical truth? Women were horribly oppressed for thousands of years and couldn’t vote until early last century. That’s historical truth for you bub.
I just wanna say quick A feminist is just someone who believes men and women should have equal rights - that neither sex is inherently superior or inferior than the other, and should be treated as such. There are other branches of feminism, as with all belief systems and ideologies, with more specific ideals, but this is the core of it all. So I think Eowyn not wanting to be feminine, doing what she wants is fine. It's normal. She's got duty she didn't ask for that chains her to a feminine role. - But she isn't a feminist, as a character. She clearly looks down on other women "i am not a dry nurse" she sees herself as Other - she wants to be treated like a man. She isn't crying for the right of other women to seek glory and fight, she fights for herself. As Tolkien Geek rightfully puts, the main reason Eowyn can't have what she wants - and other characters like Aragon can't either - is that she has responsibilities to others that she needs to fulfil, not sexism explicitly. I think she's an interesting character. Is it concerning that Tolkien's main female character clearly looks down on other women, and is made out to be irrational and ungrateful for the magnitude of her position and responsibilities? A little. But I think writing a female character like this, in that time, in this genre was a pretty bold move, and making her something other than a beautiful maiden or a haggard peasant woman, with depth and humanity, is feminist. He made her human. She's not just The Woman, the Princess (is she a princess? She's in line for the throne of rohan right?) The love interest - She's Eowyn. TLDR: She is a feminist icon for her humanity, for being able to be angry and unreasonable but still be treated with sympathy and not punished, as male characters often are, But the character herself isn't a feminist. And there might be traces of sexism, but I don't think it negatively impacts Eowyn.
Hmm… well, Eowyn grew up w/o a mom and surrounded by men/brothers/male cousins etc. She turned out normal…as one would expect. She’s not just “seeking glory.” This is what she grew up around.. Re: Aragorn…she loved him. Can’t get over that right away. Took time. Tolkien’s works deal with fate a lot. Glorifindel prophesied the witch king falling by her hand, like, back during Arnor’s chaos. If she wanted to die, she coulda just stood there. At any point. Including the Witch King encounter. Stand there and let an elephant crush you, etc. She certainly didn’t act like one seeking death. Tolkien’s letter 43 or something is disgusting re: women and sex 🤮
in other words, as a modern feminist would say: Faramir a guy, mansplained to Eowyn that gardening and healing good (which she never inclined to before) and war and fighting bad (for a woman) and Eowyn a good and obedient woman agreed and listened to the man and adopted his values (just kidding)
18:18 French and English kings were miraculously marked out by God as legitimate by their power to _heal_ scrofles. A relative of Dr. Johnson (his father?) had been healed from scrofles by James II and VII or James III and VIII, and that was one of the reasons to support "the king across the sea". And the healing was done by laying on off hands.
I mean, war and healing are both solutions to problems. It's unfortunate we have to engage in war, as it is also unfortunate people become ill. You could claim that illness is inevitable, and conflict isn't, but from where I'm sitting, there will always be conflict - and always be war.
True. Someone once said something like, a good thing done too extreme is no longer a good thing. It's easy to point to when aggression goes too far. Can you point to when compassion goes too far? It's not that easy to draw that line.
Can anyone imagine men getting all weepy because Jane Austen doesn't have any scenes with men alone? I'm an egalitarian and don't believe women need to be spoon fed self-esteem.
Tolkien's Eowyn is one of the most anti-feminist characters/character arcs in literary history. Jackson's Eowyn isn't really Tolkien's, but it also isn't really Jackson's - it belongs to the two feminist white female co-writers, as does Arwen. These two women did what they could to sneak in feminism - which includes misandry, hatred of men, putting down of men. When Galadriel says "were gifted to the race of men, who above all else, desire power" and Elrond says "Men? Men are weak" those are meant to be cheer lines for anti-male feminists. You can see some on YT reacting to it and enthusiastically YES GIRL!ing at those lines. Similarly, while everyone has come to take it for granted, Arwen's action scene if you actually think about is frankly bizarre. It makes no sense with the character or anything else we ever see from her or hear about her. As far as we can tell she sits around in Renaissance paintings all day dreaming about love. But then apparently she randomly becomes a great action warrior and horse rider. In the books scene, the flight to the ford, is given to a male warrior elf like Legolas, named Glorfindel iirc. And I think the spell on the river is either there automatically or Elrond does it from Rivendell. But anyway, Eowyn. Tolkien was not a feminist. His Eowyn arc is - this daughter/niece of a warrior culture has taken in/taken on warrior culture values. She is a shieldmaiden with warrior values. Tolkien, medievalist scholar, understands shieldmaidenry and its place in history, and imo uses LOTR and Eowyn to reconcile it with his civilized Christian worldview. This is really what much of the entire project of LOTR is, and that is what Eowyn is about. She's a shieldmaiden w those values but she is still a woman. So she is depicted w Aragorn demonstrating hyper-hypergamy. She sees the greatest/highest male warrior and immediately wants him. Bases her whole self-value on getting him. This in the films confuses modern viewers, esp women. "You just met him, you're in love w him?" Yes, she covets him immediately, bc he is the top guy, mr A+ number 1 in the world warrior, and she is a female w warrior culture values. She wants THAT guy. Immediately. He doesn't want her, he's spoken for (by a female who is nothing like her, btw - nor anything like film-Arwen; book Arwen is no warrior woman; and the Arwen-Aragorn breakup stuff isn't in the books at all). So after her hypergamy move of getting Aragorn fails, she becomes immediately despondent and suicidal. That hypergamy try for Aragorn was her only way to win as a woman while having her warrior values. She was trying to serve two masters there. Get a man, but he's the greatest warrior man. Well, he rejects her, and so she goes fully into warrior mode - she wants to die gloriously in battle. Immediately. This in the books is why she goes into the Pelennor fields battle. To die in battle and salvage SOMETHING from this life at least, after failing w Aragorn. And that is the real meaning of her scenes after the battle, in the Houses of Healing. That's what she's sick with - despair. And this despair sickens her even after Aragorn heals her injuries. Then the key scenes, she meets and falls in love with Faramir. And Tolkien is very clear in his language here - he has her, in the language he uses, basically put away 'warrior' or masculine things forever, and enthusiastically embrace the feminine. And then she lives happily ever after w Faramir in Ithilien, as Queen or Princess of Ithilien, I forget which. The films anyway meanwhile are full of non-book scenes recasting her entire meaning and motive, trying to pump up the sexism w absurd dialogue from people like Eomer, w Eowyn always trying to be in the battle and always being told by the men she can't bc she's a girl. It is just lame. Tolkien's Eowyn is a much more realistic, nuanced, thoughtful version of the character, and much more instructive. And much more inspiring to good women.
So, this is my thing with Eowyn: As I recall, no other person besides her uses the term "Shield maiden," and no other woman in all of Tolkien's writing that I'm aware of fights as one, and when Eowyn fights, she fights disguised as a man. She made up the role of a woman warrior, everyone tells her there's no such thing (and there isn't), and when she does fight she has to take a masculine persona to do it. It seems like a very clear gender divide. She steps out of her place, has to become masculine to do it, and returns to being feminine. Your arguments about gardeners are ok, but only from Faramir's perspective. I'm not sure gardeners are in fact held in high honor in the Shire, at least before Sam came home. Bilbo and Frodo treat Sam and the Gaffer well, but they are clearly lower class. They pay rent on Bagshot Row, right? Faramir just doesn't understand how the Shire really works. And then you have characters like Denethor and Boromir who have a completely different opinion about war. Boromir has to blow the stupid horn at the start of a secret journey. He's all in for fighting. I don't know why you would privilege Faramir's opinions as authorial intention over other characters.
The point isn’t how the Shire actually operates but Faramir’s opinion, based on limited information though it be, because it shows us his own priorities. And Faramir’s opinion is relevant because Tolkien explicitly said Faramir was the character most like him.
I think it's pretty clear that Tolkien regards Faramir as having a healthier attitude than his brother or father. They fail the test of the ring - he passed it. It's not that Faramir's attitude is universal - it's uncommon, but it's right. Sam is not held in high honour in the Shire because the Shire is not perfect. The Sackville-Baggins bring Mirror to the Shire, and defeating Mordor brings Sam to the leadership.
Was Tolkien sexist? Probably. He was also born before women suffrage was a thing in Britain. That being said, I dont quite get where people come from when it comes to showing sexism in the LotR. True, there arent many female characters, but all of the ones that do have large roles are, to put it bluntly, complete badasses. True, not many of them swing a sword, but I maintain that martial strength is the absolutely last element a strong character needs, a cherry on top if you will. OK, so I can sort of see where those people are coming from...exept for the fact that thats literally also what the Hobbits do. And Faramir. Besides which, I'd argue that you need far more strength of character to be a healer than anything else. Anyone can pick up a sword, its easy to go and fight, but the healer has to wait, left behind until the fighters return. I personally believe that the people who dont fight, who have to wait alone, are far stronger than the ones who do the fighting. No shade on the fighters obviously, they are more than worthy of respect, but the people who stay? Who have to wait and not know if their loved ones are alive or dead? They are just as strong. I dont think that she ever 'realized her place as a woman' or anything stupid like that, it was more that she had her perspective shifted. Much like a warlord who sought nothing but voilence being taught that peace and healing is a better option really. We see it in other stories all the time, the only difference is that the character is a woman. I actually think in much the same way. A warriors role should be temporary, a necessity, not something to strive for.
I imagine Galadriel would swing a mean sword, although it wasn't her focus. IIRC, she was described as being man-tall and man-strong - and, of course, she had eight thousand years to practice.
There's a lot of sexism in this world, but I don't think Eowyn changing her mind on what she wants is sexism. Yes, and I don't like her (in the books and in the film), she is annyoing, almost as annoying as Denethor.
Eowyn's portrayal is so non sexist that if you put her dialogue word for word in an adaptation, Id bet there are some very stupid people who would call it "feminist propaganda" or "woke" or (insert reactionary buzzword here).lol. She has way more psychological depth and theres so much more going on with her than any superficial narrative about her. Shes depicted as a three dimensional human being, which to me is true feminism: treating women like actual people.
I mean... that person called YOU a sexist, not Tolkien, those are some deflecting abilities there XD Jokes apart, I think Tolkien was PROBABLY sexist, just because of his culture, but he wasn't more sexist than most of his contemporaries. In fact he made a lot of effort to empower women in the books. Look, most male are very bad when it comes to write female characters. They draw fantasized women, rarely real people. Good writers usually KNOW IT, and they are very careful when writing female characters. I think that's mainly why Tolkien had so few women in his stories: He understood his own weaknesses and reacted by writing less women, but those he wrote, he really put an effort to make them really cool. I mean, Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel, even the elderly women in the healing houses in Gondor, I liked her a lot even if she plays a very stereotyped character.
I don’t think even that’s an example. We all know women and even men like that, so she’s just a type of character. But she is also given the line about the hands of a king being the hands of a healer, which shows that even a shallow sort of person can have their own wisdom.
Why? Because he puts all kinds of characters in his world? There are silly, grumpy, mean people of all races and sexes in Middle-earth, just as we have today.
In other words, Eowyn's character arc isn't demonstrating that Tolkien thinks women should be healers and gardeners. It's demonstrating that Tolkien thinks *people* should be healers and gardeners.
That is a pretty good summary
My conclusion in life pretty much.
Exactly!
Based Tolkien
Also, that a warrior needs plans for peacetime.
Faramir and Eowyn are even an inversion of a popular, if unfortunate, romance trope: bitter, jaded warrior meets sensitive idealist who teaches them how to hope and love at the same time... except our bitter jaded warrior is Eowyn and Faramir is the bookish sweetheart.
Good point!
Spot on
I’ll admit I had the hardest time with Eowyn as my favorite character growing up. At age 14 I couldn’t understand why my beloved Shieldmaiden who finally won her place among the Riders would give it all up because she met some guy. Then coming back to Tolkien in my 30s with some more life experience things started to make more sense. A few of the Discworld novels actually helped as well believe it or not. In one of his book Sir Terry Pratchett takes that phrase of what you want vs what you need and adds what you think you ought to want. Eowyn, and myself for that matter, I think were very much stuck in that ‘what I think I ought to want’ because culture, life circumstance, and mental health. Eowyn’s pain and trauma had gone hugely unnoticed by her family and those closest to her for a long time so by the time of Pelanor Fields a glorious death is the only way out she sees, Aragorn was just the last straw in my opinion. So when she comes to the Houses of Healing and Faramir is first person to really ask her ‘what do *you* want?’ And she’s finally able to think about that without any outside pressure. Myself when I turned 18 wanted to join the army but was talked out of it by my godfather (he was a Vietnam veteran) who knew I would get myself killed trying to be GI Jane, then ending up in a bad spot with a group of people and I thought it was what I was hard fighting and hard drinking etc but it was a worse place than any I had been in my life. Then a man comes along and asks me those same questions while I am healing away from all that and here I am now a carpenter building things with my husband and son. To say I think that calling Eowyn a feminist character dumbed down a sexist author is more than skewed is an understatement to say the least.
tolkien was more enlightened on these matters than most are today
Tolkien is the measure of how not to be sexist:
- Eowyn is strong and goes against the norms
- Arwen is respected and admired
- Galadriel is one of the oldest and strongest characters
- Luthien is a great character who has even more power than her love Beren
I know right?! People just want to have reasons (even if they're false) to argue.
@@pianogang2273 yeah and I am really bothered about this. For Tolkien was all about strong female characters (even if they are fewer in numbers than men, but who cares? He wrote from a WWI perspective after all)
@@laura-bianca3130 Yeah! And what about Idril and Elwing (I am reading the HoME series so the names might not be correct)?! Idril helped many hundreds by devising the Secret Tunnel, and Elwing brought the Silmaril to Eärendil which helped him defeat Ancalagon! : )
@@pontiuspilate7631 true as well, but he DID write it like this, which is why he is loved by both men and women and eternally great 😉
@@pianogang2273 so true, I just picked the most famous, but there are more
Ugh! This nonsense idea that women must be identical to men simply must stop! You did an excellent job of correcting this misguided criticism.
How can anyone see the self-destructive path she was on and think that it was sexist for her character to heal from that deep depression? I've said this about Arwen, but it holds true for Eowyn as well: the real sexism is that anyone actually believes that the only way a woman can be strong, courageous, a leader, or a valuable person is if she turns her back on all things feminine and becomes a warrior. Hogwash! Strong women can have the ability to fight and the willingness to fight if circumstances necessitate it. But, there is unbelievable strength is nurturing, healing, growing, and (in the case of Arwen) crafting.
Tolkien didn't write many female characters, but just look at the ones he did give us! They were amazing! Not a one if them was treated like she was ignorant. Not one of them was treated as if she was little more than an incubator. Even minor female characters show hope, wisdom, strength of character, a strong sense of self. The whole argument that Tolkien must be sexist because his medeval-esque story isn't full of battled-hardened, war-hungry females is itself ignorant, sexist poppycock.
(And one of these days, I may go back to the Arwen video and rewrite my rant there that glitched when I tried to post it. It was much the same as this, but with specifics about her private crafting of the King's standard, and what that means about her. As a hand-crafter, I have personal insight into things non-crafting readers miss.)
Wonderfully said. As a woman, this forcing of the “strong female character” (who is actually flat and annoying) drives me nuts! Write complex characters with character arcs. Period. Full stop.
An agenda that creates cookie-cutter characters isn’t really satisfying to anyone if one goes to fiction for awesome characters that feel real instead of flat token characters.
Ugh. I’m repeating myself. You said it so much better than I! 👍
"Tolkien didn't write many female characters, but just look at the ones he did give us!"
Ungoliant and Shelob? Sorry ;)
@@tominiowa2513 You can't deny that they both had a strong sense of self! ROFL!
If a woman character is written to embody more masculine traits though it should be just as accepted as your own ideals of what makes a well written female character. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Nothing is being forced; you just have your own ideals like other people and are unwilling to see it objectively. You say you’re tired of cookie cutter string female characters but would have every female character be a damsel in distress with all of the most traditionally feminine traits of the western canon. We can have both.
That's it? Flip a coin and choose your woman! Will she be Warrior Woman, indistinguishable from men or will she be a damsel in distress? Eowyn is a much more complex character.
I don't have "ideals" that I am adhering to. I simply grasp the several dozen nuances of her character and believe that Tolkien gave her character the healing she needed. He didn't box her up and send her back to Rohan to be nothing more than some wife. And let's be clear: she was definitely seeking a husband when she crushed on Aragorn. She wanted to be a wife. But since he chose madness over reason with the Paths of the Dead, she chose to run towards death for herself. Then, she woke up from dark dreams to find him alive and still not interested in her as anything more than a patient. She was still crushing on him and he was still going off on a hopeless task which left her full of melancholy. Tolkien could easily have left her character as a loose end or just given her a little afterthought mention. No. This hurting woman who had grown up surrounded by death and caught in a position with no power to change her situation had chosen a suicide mission and lived. But her head-space hadn't changed. Then Sauron was defeated and it's like the last lingering memory of her dark dreams went with him and her head cleared. Marrying Faramir and being the wife of the Steward of the High King of Gondor, releasing the pain of her past, being cleansed of her suicidal urge to dare fate in battle, THAT is her "Undying Lands" healing. She wasn't out there on the fields of Pelenor because she loved a good bloodbath. She wasn't a warrior woman to start with. And trying to make her one is just forcing her to be something she wasn't. She was a woman driven to war. That is a very different thing. I stand by my original post. I'm not the one who has "ideals." I'm the one who has read the whole book dozens of times for decades and sees a complete picture of Eowyn as a character. She wasn't a warrior. She wasn't a damsel in distress. She was neither. She was so much more.
Healing is feminine? “The hands of the king are the hands of a healer, and so shall the rightful king be known.”
Yes healing is femenine
Healing is more a feminine strength than is fight/war, but the true king/queen must have all the strengths: the masculine (to rule and protect) and feminine (to heal and grow). Yet, it is the ability to heal that reveals a righful ruler.
Eowyn's arc is an obvious progression, I like her story, because it moves from one stance that many have of the misunderstanding of over glorifying war and adventure, to a more grounded reality, with Faramir. Faramir, if you remember did not seek conflict, or glory, but only took the call to arms because it was his duty.
Like Eowyns love of Aragorn, she loves a shadow of a thought, she does not truly love Aragorn, but what in her mind represents a great warrior, he seeks death and glory, but what Aragorn, and Faramir show her is that, love and glory is not only in death and destruction, but a greater more lasting love is in life, and creation.
Eowyn was on a death wish and if anything Tolkien was going against the tropes: her desire for Aragorn almost drove her to madness and death. She was being mentally crushed by the expectations of being a shield-maiden of Rohan and through her interactions with Faramir discovered a better way of living: she and Faramir will help restore the troubled lands of Ithelian and pave the way for the future.
Also, all the important female characters in Tolkien's works were able, brave and smart women: Galadriel, Eowyn, Arwen, Luthien, Melian, Yavanna. They were treated with a dignity that you would rarely see in today's works of fiction, plus they had story arcs just as complicated as any of the male characters in Tolkien's books, especially Galadriel and Melian.
Tolkien Geek, well done! I think you're absolutely right about Eowyn and about the supposed "sexism" in Tolkien's works. Like Tolkien himself, I think Eowyn was suffering from PTSD due to the harrowing years of watching Theoden decline and being unable to do anything about it. What she needed was therapy--enough understanding and fruitful conversation to allow her heart to be healed. She couldn't get this from Aragorn due to circumstances. When she and Merry fulfilled the prophecy about the Witch King, then she was forced to heal in body, which also put her in the right time and place to heal in soul. She finally was able to open up with Faramir, as you rightly point out. She was able to heal and to want to turn her talents to healing and growing things (family with her new husband may also be implied). Excellent argument as usual, my friend. Namarie.
This was a very well thought out and presented video. In the future whenever someone talks about Tolkien and sexism I’m going to show them this
Eowyn is my hero for having the courage to change. The most assured way of getting old fast is refusing to try new things and grow.
25:10 - This is how I assumed most read Éowyn's "change of heart" in The Houses of Healing. Instead of yearning for battle, there's a shift to the better things as you say. Though, I've rarely engaged with the Tolkien's work is sexist crowd...
While I think the Houses of Healing chapter perhaps provides this shift with a bit of haste, I do agree with you when you say that it elevates her character. We aren't meant to lament the fact she no longer wants to ride into battle..,
Well said. Tolkien always seemed to cherish the simple things in life over any sort of grand excitement or glory (although there was always room for a little adventure!).
I always found it interesting how Eowyn sought glory like Boromir did and both suffered for it. It makes me wonder if, had Boromir lived, Faramir might have been able to show his brother what's really important in life like he did for Eowyn. While the threat of Sauron existed I don't really see Boromir being swayed, but in peaceful times under Aragorns rule he might have been more receptive.
An excellent point, I think.
I LOVE this! Eowyn seemed more concerned with “glory” and not so concerned with defending her country. The 8 surviving members of the Fellowship were all concentrating on helping Middle Earth, not on obtaining individual glory. She always seemed selfish and spoiled to me. Wanting to die because her pretend boyfriend wasn’t interested made me wonder why the people of Rohan trusted her so much. And, when she snuck into battle, who was left to rule? Also, in the books, I believe she and Aragorn only had one conversation. She was lucky that she found her calling and found Faramir.
@@kayfairchild5005 I can understand to some extent what brought Eowyn to that way of thinking, she was forced to wait on an increasingly feeble old man all her life and had no outlet for her own wishes. So I'm not surprised she'd cling to any chance at fulfillment through glory. It's just that according to Tolkien (and I'm inclined to agree), you won't find fulfillment in glory.
@@Vladislak - Not to mention potentially being forced to marry Grima Wormtongue hanging over Éowyn's head (until Gandalf sent the latter packing).
Thank you for this video. My change of heart regarding Eowyn (having not thought about this in quite some time) changed and healed my own heart, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this. I still find it funny that I once thought her ending was defeat, despite gaining someone who loved her for herself and had a garden kingdom, but never thought it a shame that Sam put aside his sword for his own smaller garden kingdom. And in such things, your own poison of Saruman can be leeched from your system.
Very interesting video, Tolkien Lore.
I never realised the connection between farameir and Tolkien, the numinorians and the theme of healing and nurturing. The message that war is an ugly necessity and it would be wise not to glorify it. I love that message, personally.
Your talk also made me realise the similarity between elves and numinorians is reflected in their more nurturing and wise nature. This is in contrast to other men, who are more war-like and destructive. Even if, as you said, the Gondorians have deviated from this wisdom in later days, in characters such as Farameir and Aragon, it is still there
The real problem with men is that the Valar sat around twiddling their thumbs in Valinor, giving Morgoth free rein to corrupt them as they first awoke.
I don't think Eowyn is a feminist even in her conversation with Aragorn. She says she should not have to stay with the women because she is from the House of Eorl and not a serving woman.
Well thats more to do with social class rather than gender
If you look at the history of feminist movements, you will find them rife with snobbery and often racism. Eowyn's entitlement here is actually very indicative of the English suffragettes who didn't want common men to have the vote before they did (even though those men were subject to conscription) or American suffragettes who didn't want to lack the vote when they saw black men would get it.
@@waltonsmith7210 if her uncle and brother would have been slain, it would have been on Eowyn to lead the eored.
And she feared that. She had lost her parents, was sexually harrassed by Grima, had to see how her cousin died slowly. And during that time, her brother was banished and her uncle under a curse.
She was fearing what would come.
So during the Battle of the Hornburg, she wanted to fight, because she feared to witness to loose her last relatives. She wanted to die.
The same thing with the ride of the Rohirim. It is from her perspective a suicide attack and that is the reason, why she joins the attack.
She believed that the war was lost. And she feared what would happen to her, when the armies would be slain.
So she wanted to ride out, fight and die. As that would be the better end, than slavery in the black lands.
We are observing an individuation process in the case of Eowyn and shows the extend of Tolkien’s comprehension of human kind. Of course this is way beyond the comprehension of ideological pawns that price their narcissist views over actual enlightenment.
As a woman that deeply relates to Eowyn (I have been in the exact situation of feeling caged, having really high aspirations and rejecting being told what to do from as long as I have memory) also going through a phase desiring death, maybe is the process of aging and learning and confronting your delusions but now even though I have accomplished a lot as a woman in the stem world, my deepest desire is to build a homestead and retire to a garden and animals, something I would have never thought I would enjoy, ever. The end take here is that, a simple life should be what we praise and desire above all else and see it as a glorious end.
Thank you for pulling out the thread about gardeners in LOTR.
How much was Eowyn's state of mind related to her likelihood of being handed over to Grima?
This was a situation she was in because she was a woman in Rohan. It wasn't wasn't the only thing making her want to die because it continued even after Mordor's defeat. However, it's possible she couldn't want to live until she was sure she would be in a benevolent situation.
While Tolkien has very few incidental female characters that's sort of the point. There are few incidental characters at all, most people that are named are involved in battles. The Silmarillion is much richer with powerful female characters and gives context to Galadriel.
As a modern woman I appreciate that Eowyn was ultimately able to accept love and acceptance for who she is with Faramir.
How many women are there taking active roles in the ancient sagas that Tolkien drew inspiration from? [rhetorical question]
primary characters:
Bilbo, Frodo, Merry, Pippen. are introduced in the beginning- Gandalf comes back from Hobbit book.
L. Sackvielle Baggins and Odo (male and Female) antagonists
(tons of hobbits introduced in party) (both male and female)
Ham Gamgee.
Galdor Inglorian Elf guide
Old man Willow (a Tree)
Tom & GoldBerry (Male and Female)
Black Ridders (9)
Buterbur, (also Nob& Bob)
Strider/Aragorn
Glorfindal
Elrond
Gloin
Boromir, Legolas, Gimli.
Haldir, Galadrial, Celeborn (elf scout, Elf Queen and King)
Two Towers
Eomer and his Erod (men)
Theoden (King),
Hama (not so good gate guard)
Grima (antagonist)
Eowyen
Ugluge&Grishnaka (male orcs)
Treebeard, Quickbeam and Co.
Saruman (primary antagonist)
(Gollum/Smeagol) Primary antagonist
(Faramir) capt.
Shelob (female Spider)
But now it’s 2024 lol. Nice of ROP to update it for us
I think you covered it very well. In fact, I hadn't considered before the Sam angle, that Faramir regards highly such a person, REGARDLESS of race or gender. I think you were very thorough and quite correct in your evaluation of the matter.
There’s an interesting essay I once read called “Tolkien’s Heathen Feminist” by Karl E.H. Siegfried which goes into detail about how Eowyn was most likely inspired by female figures in Norse mythology such as the valkyrie Brunhild, which in turn serves as a reflection of pre-Christian Nordic views towards women.
I have seen references as well, Nordic mythology (which Tolkien drew upon) considers women equal to men
@@4279becca except that's simply not true, there were some clear and well defined gender roles for men and women, and intruding on the other gender's role was seen a big no-no. Not only that but Eowyn's lust for battle and honor ultimately wasn't presented as a desirable thing, quite on the contrary it came from arrogance, selfishness and neglect, which is the point of her having to overcome it. Analysis like that are surface level at best and grossly incorrect at worst.
@@leonardomarquesbellini Having different roles in society does not negate the idea of the genders being equal though. Lets say you have a society where only men can be millers and only women can be blacksmiths and the idea of anyone doing the other role is so unthinkable that attempting to do so is likely to get you banished at best. Does that mean that one group is lesser than the other? No, of course not. Both can be valued equally.
Of course, this doesn't necessarily apply to the Norse cultures, I'm simply pointing out that 'rigid gender roles' does not translate to 'men and women are not societal equals'.
That sounds interesting, thank you for suggesting it. I always took her role in terms of the deeds of war (as well as Theoden's) as a bit of Tolkien rewriting The Battle of Maldon (as he had strong opinions of it, clearly) but certainly very much in the vein of the Germanic warrior.
@erindunn6689 bleh 🤮🤮🤮 “heathen feminism” lmao. I always came & went as I pleased. It was great cuz I went away to college and saw these ppl who were finally released from being policed who failed out lol.
I really enjoyed this presentation. You made your points well and with fluency. I'll be saving this to re-watch and savour. Thank you.
I love your analysis! Thank you for deepening this topic! ♡
Hi.
Great video, which covered most the topic as comprehensive as I could imagine.
I'd like to add it could be useful to quickly weed out the relevant Jackson differences:
•. Firstly at Dunharrow, I don't remember anyone schooling Eowyn about 'the nature of war is for men' in the books. I felt like book Eowyn and Aragorn were speaking past each other, however. The Eomer movie scene appeared to be about the pretentious finger wagging down to Eowyn - fuel for her feminist furnace. After being caged by Grima and dumped by Chad Aragorn, this is her new justification to show the men how it's done. Lol.
•. Secondly. It's my impression that the presence of Jackson's Gandalf¹, Faramir², and Merry³ were mitigated, for various reasons. This had the effect that it put Eowyn in a uniquely authoritative position. This lead her overall role to over-compensate. Thus, she dramatically rose and fell, as opposed to having a redemptive character development. Movie Eowyn:
1.) Sexual abuse victim and sexism.
2.) Rise into singlehandedly³ killing a demi god. More powerful¹ than a Balrog-Killing, White Wizard.
3.) Descendt. Eowyn is now the wife of the former steward's second son². No development of love². Faramir is partially an insecure, violent jerk². They conveniently² hold hands and smile. Her ending feels a bit hollow, like a cage.
Jackson's version explicitly tell the heroine not to fight, because a seemingly nonsense reason and unwanted sexual advances. Additionally, by the mitigation of other relevant characters, it makes sense why a misguided audience might misjudge Tolkien for breaking a feminist hero.
In sum:
I like the video, so this is misc. It could be worth to quickly dispel a few more alterations, relevant to Eowyn, by Jackson. Changes that didn't exist in Tolkien's books.
Thank you.
I absolutely loved this video! You're one of the, if not the best Tolkien channel(s) on TH-cam.
That being said, I kinda wish you'd have added a word about the White Tree on the topic of Minas Tirith being revegetalized after the War of the Ring ;) . Actually, we could expand that to how Minas Tirith in its entirety is basically a diminished, more austere and military-oriented version of the Minas Anor of old, which plays along your words on the decay of Gondor.
Being a woman these days I have the notion that it isn't acceptable anymore to do anything that is considered feminine in a traditional sense, when you are a woman yourself. It is quite sad and disturbing to see, that it is more important what sex/gender you are than what kind of person you are and want to be.
If you want to do something thats traditionally feminine, whatever that means, who's stopping you?
Nyuchannokawaii, AGREED. Feminist women (specifically) are quick to bash other women who enjoy living under “traditional feminine” roles or doing “traditionally feminine” things, whatever that really means. They think it’s in opposition to their feminist agenda/movement. I could care less what these feminist think. I enjoy being a “feminine” woman. Lmbo.
I do me. “Traditionally” or not.
@@waltonsmith7210 No one. But your answer shows the problem: You cannot define (and be proud) as something that is considered "traditional feminine" as a woman anymore, because there is always someone saying "What is feminine anyway?" There are still some people who like the traditional roles of man and woman without bashing those people who do not like these old role models. It would be nice if people could voice their opinion without any comments about how these people are part of a problem. The problem are those people who actively and aggressively work against any people that consider themselves as "different". And different doesn't mean in any term bad or ugly. It just means different.
Spot on!
@@nyuchannokawaii traditional? Sounds an awful lot like sexism. You mean the traditional roles of women when they couldn’t vote, hold down a job, or contribute to society without the approval of men. No one is stopping you from being a stay at home mom/housewife. Plenty of women still do it. You and people like you however seem dead set on perpetuating your own absurd ideas that any notion of “traditional femininity” is being attacked. Nope...in fact women in the western world have it the best they’ve ever had it. You’re just insecure. Be feminine, be masculine. No one gives a shit. Just live your life and let other women live there’s. They don’t have any obligation to be held up at home, or wear make up, or cook, or marry or have kids.
Aragorn had healing powers and knowledge like the kings of old.
All of which is to say, well done sir. The world needs more Faramirs and Eowyns. Tolkien was a far sighted genius with a deep intyitive understanding of human nature. I'm pleased to know that i loved Faramir most of all the characters in LotR long before I knew that it was Faramir Tolkien most identified with. Still looking for my Eowyn.
I find this interesting, in the sense that to the ancient Germanic and Celtic peoples, war and creation were on the same level, both the bard and the chief warrior flanked the king's sides. The smith was as great as the soldier, and even their protector gods were often associated with art and creation as much as war and destruction.
When you take into consideration that Tolkien's personal social conventions were developed during the Victorian Era, his novel was mostly written by a middle age professor right before and during the 2nd World War, Eowyn's raw courage, more than most, against the Witch King is a shining example of women's empowerment.
This is a very good evaluation of her situation. She cannot see the truth that the people have chosen her, she only sees that the role was not one of the warrior. Her healing was in her spirit so she realized that there is glory in her people’s love for her.
This is one of your best videos. Well done.
Consider Tolkien's personal experiences from World War I.
"Dorothy Lawrence was an English journalist who posed as a male soldier in order to report from the front line during World War I. She was the only known British woman soldier on the frontline during World War I."
When I hear about women like her I always think they must not have had the disabling bloody, gross and painful menstrual periods. Lucky.
Elrond was a great healer, "The hands of the king are healer's hands" Eowyn is aspiring to the craft of the greatest, how is that sexism
This is an amazing analysis! Ok, you just officially became my favourite Tolkien youtube channel.
Excellent lecture I really enjoyed this one. Thanks.
'He thought before the war
Of conflicts, heroism, enemies
Who had to be crushed;
Causes that had to be fought for.
He had no time before the war
For bright skies, fields, the warm sun, his woman - only
Causes that had to be fought for.
I see him now after the war
In my lifetime. I notice his love
Of the sun, bright skies, fields, his woman:
Causes that have to be fought for.'
About the Elves are bringing & planting trees thing: Last year I saw a documentary about trees in which they re-enacted and told about how America and Great Britain actually DID this for Germany after World War 2 in 1948; especially for Berlin! 😊 They delivered oak trees and such via plane!
Edit: I found the link, it's German of course, but right at the beginning: th-cam.com/video/wXgvxooJaPE/w-d-xo.html
Feminism is all about women's free and uncensored self determination - and that is exactly what is shown in the books. We are what we want to be at the time right for us. Warriors, healers, immortal or not etc. I really don't see the conflict. Forcing Eowyn to join the army when she wants to be a healer or keeping her from changing when she has decided to change ... that's not feminism.
P.S. And keeping up with the status quo of what feminism is, just to look feminist at the price of your self-determination is oh so sad and is not feminist as well.
A woman killed the either the third or fourth most potent enemy of the third age and likely on of the top 30 or so of the entire history of Middle Earth, and some of those self-destructed (Ungoilant), were killed at the cost of one's own death (every balrog seen killed, i.e. Gothmog, the Balrog in the pass that killed Glorfindel, and the Balrog of Moria), were killed through subtle or overwhelming force though at great cost of lives (Glaurong, Scatha, Smaug, Ancalagon,) were defeated by "divine" intervention (Morgoth,) or by means of being weakened in an explicable or inexplicable means (Sauron and Saruman). Second oldest to Sauron was the threat of the Witch King, and second only to him was the destruction that he perpetrated. She did what no man, dwarf, or elf had ever hoped to accomplish. She cut the head of his beast straight off with one strike!! Come on, the fact that she later decides that these things are enough and it is time to settle down and raise a family is not demeaning at all!! Did she need to wear the Ring, cast down the Dark Lord in his tower, belch the remaining Eight out of existence, kick down the Towers of the Teeth, wad up the Black Gate, and extinguish the fires of Mount Doom itself before feminists are satisfied that she is woman?
Do we not think that a mere look from her would get people moving or send children to bed quietly? "If you do not behave, we will go talk to the Steward's wife. You remember what she did to the Witch King when he crossed her don't you? Think of what she will do to naughty little children who get in the way of her more important tasks!!"
Poor woman likely had people building shines and images to her all over Mordor, Gondor, and Arnor. Talk about being excruciatingly careful to never forget an anniversary or birthday, not to mention never straying too far from her side, Faramír was likely the perfect husband!! Why? She was likely his equal in combat and strength!! He has no feat that is comparable to hers!!
Let that poor woman raise her family and realm in peace!!
😁
Thank you for recomending this video, im glad tolkein understood that war is no place for women, and had eowyn agnowlage that after turning from her mistakes of riding into battle.
And even though her mistakes did lead to a victory of killing the witch king, they werr mistakes none the less. Genuenly, good video.
Very good uppload.
Just a couple of comments. I am definitely impressed with Faramir being personality-wise more of a Healer and definitely having great insight. Somewhere around 15 minutes you knocked it not only out of the park but out of our galaxy. And 2 comments I guess about Sam and gardening perhaps his love of gardening and nurture was what allowed him to we resist the ring better than Boromir could have. Perhaps that was also why Frodo had some resistance to the ring as well. And wasn't Adam as the first man a nurturer and gardener.?
Tolkien Lore Channel you get bonus points if you know the answer to this one without looking it up do you know who Edwin Starr was? It's pertinent to one of your comments.
Not sure who Starr is tbh.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You almost quoted Edward's star when you said War. What is it good for? Absolutely nothing. Likely you did not intend that but the song War was one of his number one hits.
I’m familiar with the song, just didn’t know his name lol.
16:36 _"for the great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad, for all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad"_
Tolkien : that's Anglo-Saxons, not Gaels, your philology is off, Chesterton!
Faramir : mad indeed
Everything in Middle Earth is constantly fading. Heroes may emerge and win victories against the fading of their lands' glory and the rise of evil, but they are the least important thing. The strength of good is the unsung folks who cooperate to care for each other and have no urge to greatness. They just want to do their part, and their part is what keeps things running and fends off evil in the long term Eowyn's not a hero. She knows she isn't the physical equal of men, and isn't expecting to win anything. She just won't stand by if she can contribute in any way. She's a kindred spirit to Merry, who feels exactly the same way. When her part in great deeds is no longer needed, she no longer has any need to fight and becomes two of the things Tolkien considered the highest callings - healing others and being connected to the world by collaborating with the earth itself to produce food that helps others. She's not suddenly being repressed and giving up her individuality. She's living the best life Tolkien could give her. She's not a flash in the pan that flares bright and then disappears. She's one of us.
Tolkien was very anti-sexist but people are now trying to read into it with their modern lens' and it only does an injustice to a great tale.
Excuse me for being off topic. I wonder if you have ever made a movie about Frodo's dreams and/or the visions he has in the mirror of Galadriel? What are the meaning of them? What are they saying to him?
It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts and analyzes of all his visions. And why did they come to him when they did?
7:02 I would not pronounce it e-ORL. I would pronounce it E-orl. Why?
Bc Rohirric = basically = Anglo-Saxon (spec. Old Mercian).
Now, in AS, eo is a falling diphthong, basically like Greek eu, but ending closer to -o than to -w.
That’s how I’m trying to say it but it’s really unnatural to my American accent lol
@@TolkienLorePodcast Try to take lessons from Simon Roper!
Aragorn is the greatest healer of all the humans, Sam is the most wonderful character, and he spends a chapter more or less healin and sowing in the lands of Shire. I imagine Eowyn and Faramir spent the rest of their lives doing what must be done after war and ockupation: healing, replanting and rebuilding the lands of Ithilien.
Also after reading about Edith Bratt I realised she was as much an inspiration for Eowyn as for Luthien.
24:20 Tolkien looking back to Chesterton again.
Where was Adam before the Fall? Where was Christ after Resurrection? Colleagues of Sam Gamgee.
Great points.
I think it's obvious that most of these naysayers never red tlotr, let alone Unfinished Tales.
Why are "healing powers" associated to women?.
All the museums I've visited that have an exhibition associated to different Latin American indigenous cultures always have a male chaman. Also, Elrond heals Frodo, right?.
To be honest, I simply think it's a cool power and that's all that matters.
Brilliant. Can add nothing to the meat of this. Laughed along with your inadvertent Porky Pig at 27:50. :)
I read other feminists who on the contrary praised the book version of Eowyn. First for telling Aragorn how women are essentially treated in general (Even though you said that Aragorn also says that he would like to be somewhere else, it's a fact that men in her situation do decide of the fate of the world and "tell women to keep the house and if the men die, they have leave to burn with the house". She's right on that point. BUT thanks to Faramir, she also have the opportunity to grow as a person and chose a way to gain power over her life that isn't just the traditionnaly masculine way of doing thing, finding value in what is typically seen as "feminine".
This is a profound feminist message here and many of my feminists friends tend to agree with that interpretation, wich does tie in nicely with your point about "higher men" and "middle men", the later of wich aren't able to value the typically feminine aspects of life and only rely on war and physical strenght. This is a nice demonstration in Tolkien of a critique of what is today called "toxic masculinity". Of course I'm not saying Tolkien had these very concept in mind while writing, but the concept serves to illustrate a reality that Tolkien was himself also able to see and name in a different way.
It is most certainly a feminist speech, right down to the myopia and lack of empathy. While some men probably worked up the bravado to sing on the way to war, dying alone, thirsty, bleeding, and smothered in the mud was/is not a 'male privilege'. It would be even worse mentally (and according to some creeds, spiritually) if the man was certain that he had failed to protect his children and womenfolk. Some individual male elites have made stupid decisions regarding warfare, but other men, women, and children alike paid for it (that's leaving aside the horrible track record that queens have for causing conflict).
Also, while the outcome of war could be Hell for the non-combatants of the losing side, this depended on the situation. Those going to war would get Hell no matter what.
Eowyn didn't have a happy early life. Most people in the world don't. She had an opportunity for greatness in civic leadership, as Aragorn points out, but like most feminists, she was actually upset that she had never been cherished as a princess. She wants to end it all, and duty be damned. I'll readily agree that her early sentiments are very feminist, and her idea of war is reflective of that poorly defined 'toxic masculinity'.
@@thehussarsjacobitess85 That is definitely not what I meant.
27:59 CSL and Tolkien would have been a bit like Cor and Corin.
CSL felt excited at the whistling of a bullet, and he took a few Germans captive (Germans who would have felt a bit like Tolkien did), but he was never a man for a "kerfuffle" (fistfight)
Tolkien was a rugby player, but glad to be taken out of WW-I.
I hate to break it to people, but reality is "sexist". We've evolved to do different things than men. There's a lot of things men are better at and anybody who thinks otherwise is just kidding themselves. But we create and nurture life in ways that men simply can't. That's what I always read Eowyn's story to be about: stopping chasing other people's glory, and embracing her own.
As much as the woke crowd would like to pretend otherwise, men and women are not interchangeable when it comes to reproductive roles.
I agree with you and that's why I have a problem with all this woke movement. Why do we have to be narrowed down to be powerful in strength or just not needing anyone else to do everything? (A way in which toxic masculinity is taught) they're just pretending that we just become... men. We can't be equal but there are things that can be worked on. There are things that should not be removed from us and we should fight for it, we have to nurture and watch what kids see more than ever. I'm glad I got to hear from my little niece that LOTR is one of her favorite movies, I guess I'm making my job right.
Dang....I literally just realized that Eowyn and Eomer are like matching names.....whoa.
Listening to this has been reassuring with how I'm handling some of the female characters in my stories. I'm trying to put my own spin on some of the classic fantasy races, including Orcs. (My rule is with the exception of Lovecraftian entities, no race can be 100% ugly/beautiful or good/evil.) Orcish women are physically strong but they're "Mama Bear" types of women - very nurturing but highly and ferociously protective of their children. While they do train to fight, they do so for the purpose of keeping their offspring safe, not out of a desire for glory in battle. And they are very talented gardeners. Orcish nutritional demands necessitate an agrarian lifestyle, so they're experts on cultivating both plants and animals. (Armies march on the stomach, after all.) So, even though I do have some pretty tough Orcish women in my cast, none of them are fighters exclusively and most would rather be doing other things, like gardening or raising their children.
well spoken.
Might I ask if you have studied something like English literature, because all your perspectives about LOTR are phenomenal.
Not formally, but I’ve spent enormous amounts of time reading Tolkien and read other people’s analysis of him so I’ve gotten a better understanding of literary analysis over time.
Faramir - Peter Jackson's greatest crime
Good discussion, but keep in mind that on Tolkien's grave marker is Beren, with Luthien on his wifes.
Eowyn wanted the chance to gain renown as a warrior. Well, she surely got that - in the league of Eorl the Young and Helm Hammerhand. I think the lord of the Nazgul easily equals a dragon. And then having achieve it, turned to other things.
I think the notion of Eowyn 'settling down' as I've seen a lot of people put it being oppressive or sexist or whatever is so superficial. I think it's far more about Tolkien's appreciation and value for creating and building and then preserving positive things, it's a much slower and less glorified process and requires a lot of self-sacrifices, but it's a much more moral and positive thing. In comparison, it's easy to destroy things, but it doesn't really put any good out into the world. It seems to be why so many of the noblest characters in the story (Galadriel, Sam, etc) are gardeners and why the white tree is a symbol of the King and the royal house, it's a positive, constructive force in the world.
Faramir has always been my hero, not Aragorn, admirable though he was, but ultimately unobtainable. And like Faramir, I loved Eowyn. For her strength, but even more for her "feminine" love. It was trapped in her because she was so f
Sorry. She was so frustrated at how low her house had fallen and felt powerless as a woman to rectify it. She was high and noble and mighty and a wonderful woman with gentle qualities trapped in her justifiable frustration and despair. When Faramir won her heart it gave me hope for humanity. A love affair second only to Beren and Lutihien in it's majesty.
@@Cathartesaurea Yeah, as a kid I had a big crush on Legolas, and admired Aragorn and Galadriel. But from teen hood and now; I gravitated toward Eowyn and deeply admire Faramir and Boromir, because they're so 'Human.'
I too feel trapped because of duty to family, work, and collage. I dream of writing books, working in a library, having a husband and kids... But in this small corner, I can't find any of that. Thus, trapped till I get my degree and set out to risk failing and getting hurt again. (I had a dream job, but it fell apart in front of me fast. And I was betrayed, denied, and had to get a job I never wanted).
I feel for Eowyn, including the conflicting experiences of the mainstream powerful woman, and the traditional woman. I'm stuck in the middle of them and feel doomed by both.
You do know that Eowyn is likely based on Aethelfled, eldest daughter of Alfred the Great, who ruled Mercia from 911 to 918 and was effectively regent during her husband's long illness before his death in 911. It seems to me that Faramir corresponds to Aethelred, who married Aethelfled around 882.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aethelfled
Didn’t know that, or if I did I’d forgotten.
Yes Tolkien probably did think healing was a feminine activity, because well...for much of history and across many cultures it is viewed that way. But that opinion would only be sexist, if one also assumed that men can't be feminine and women can't be masculine. Which Tolkien VERY CLEARLY does not do. The healing powers that Aragorn, Elrond and Elrond's sons have *are* cast as distinctly feminine: they got these powers from a woman and through female ancestors. However, their embrace of and use of these powers is represented as a strength of these characters rather than a weakness. None of them are portrayed as unmanly due to embracing their feminine side. Nor is Arwen unfeminine for NOT embracing and using these powers. Faramir's and Éowyn's virtues are both characterized as similar to their opposite sex parent: Faramir is said to get his contemplative nature from his mother Finduilas, and Éowyn's bravery is supposedly reminiscent of her father. At no point do any of the heroes consider this a bad thing. The only person who does is blatantly portrayed as ridiculous: Denethor. Oh, and did they miss the bit about how Sam is a gardener?
In addition, those who interpret Éowyn's statement to mean that she is hanging up her sword for good are not reading the text carefully enough. She actually states what is changing plainly: she no longer desires battle *for the sake of glory*. That is not to say she won't fight again if it's necessary, which it almost assuredly will be. Aragorn gave Faramir the title "Prince of Ithilien", but it was an empty title in that moment. Faramir and Éowyn are going to have to besiege Minas Ithil. Now think about it: that means fighting Shelob and her brood, in addition to whatever orcs are still hanging around. Sauron and the Ringwraiths may be gone, but there's plenty of battles left to fight. When she says she will be a healer and a gardener, what Éowyn means is that she will plan for the future: that she will prioritize building something new, over destroying her enemies. This is an overall much healthier attitude towards life in general, and certainly towards warfare: for anyone, male or female.
Just a small but important distinction, the criticism you're addressing is just one voice in feminism, it's not representative of anyone but themselves. And for the commentors, while it's easy to roll our eyes at a misreading of the text, if we admire Tolkien and what he stands for, we should be above shitting on people and educate them with patience good will. There's nothing like a comment section full of hate to break the heart of a Tolkien fan.
Well said 🙂. I agree.
Great job]!
Basicallly Faramir and through him Tolkien says that people should focus on and commit to cherishing life (healing and growing) rather than death (killing and being killed). Why should Eowin look for glory in war when she can do things much superior, things that are a sign of greats, of kings - to give and protect life, make it grow and be fruitful?
I'm guessing the one dislike is the person who called you a sexist 😂
"that's historical truth"... Wonder how fast it will be before somebody comes out with the "this one culture had this one brief moment in history where it did happen" because exceptions to the rules make it super common.
Historical truth? Women were horribly oppressed for thousands of years and couldn’t vote until early last century. That’s historical truth for you bub.
I just wanna say quick
A feminist is just someone who believes men and women should have equal rights - that neither sex is inherently superior or inferior than the other, and should be treated as such.
There are other branches of feminism, as with all belief systems and ideologies, with more specific ideals, but this is the core of it all.
So I think Eowyn not wanting to be feminine, doing what she wants is fine. It's normal. She's got duty she didn't ask for that chains her to a feminine role.
- But she isn't a feminist, as a character. She clearly looks down on other women "i am not a dry nurse" she sees herself as Other - she wants to be treated like a man. She isn't crying for the right of other women to seek glory and fight, she fights for herself.
As Tolkien Geek rightfully puts, the main reason Eowyn can't have what she wants - and other characters like Aragon can't either - is that she has responsibilities to others that she needs to fulfil, not sexism explicitly.
I think she's an interesting character. Is it concerning that Tolkien's main female character clearly looks down on other women, and is made out to be irrational and ungrateful for the magnitude of her position and responsibilities? A little. But I think writing a female character like this, in that time, in this genre was a pretty bold move, and making her something other than a beautiful maiden or a haggard peasant woman, with depth and humanity, is feminist. He made her human. She's not just The Woman, the Princess (is she a princess? She's in line for the throne of rohan right?) The love interest - She's Eowyn.
TLDR: She is a feminist icon for her humanity, for being able to be angry and unreasonable but still be treated with sympathy and not punished, as male characters often are, But the character herself isn't a feminist. And there might be traces of sexism, but I don't think it negatively impacts Eowyn.
Hmm… well, Eowyn grew up w/o a mom and surrounded by men/brothers/male cousins etc. She turned out normal…as one would expect. She’s not just “seeking glory.” This is what she grew up around..
Re: Aragorn…she loved him. Can’t get over that right away. Took time.
Tolkien’s works deal with fate a lot. Glorifindel prophesied the witch king falling by her hand, like, back during Arnor’s chaos. If she wanted to die, she coulda just stood there. At any point. Including the Witch King encounter. Stand there and let an elephant crush you, etc. She certainly didn’t act like one seeking death.
Tolkien’s letter 43 or something is disgusting re: women and sex 🤮
Just wondering, before you met your wife, was she one of the girls who had t-shirts with SSFF?
before WWI, nursing wasa male profession, professional gardeners were also male. but the shortage of men in the war reversed these roles.
It drives me crazy when modern people attempt to twist classical literature to prove their preconceived notions.
in other words, as a modern feminist would say: Faramir a guy, mansplained to Eowyn that gardening and healing good (which she never inclined to before) and war and fighting bad (for a woman) and Eowyn a good and obedient woman agreed and listened to the man and adopted his values (just kidding)
18:18 French and English kings were miraculously marked out by God as legitimate by their power to _heal_ scrofles.
A relative of Dr. Johnson (his father?) had been healed from scrofles by James II and VII or James III and VIII, and that was one of the reasons to support "the king across the sea".
And the healing was done by laying on off hands.
I mean, war and healing are both solutions to problems. It's unfortunate we have to engage in war, as it is also unfortunate people become ill. You could claim that illness is inevitable, and conflict isn't, but from where I'm sitting, there will always be conflict - and always be war.
True.
Someone once said something like, a good thing done too extreme is no longer a good thing. It's easy to point to when aggression goes too far. Can you point to when compassion goes too far? It's not that easy to draw that line.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Woke shit won't end anytime soon, it's essential to not appease and push back!
If only Tolkien were Viking!
No , Elrond was a healer
Can anyone imagine men getting all weepy because Jane Austen doesn't have any scenes with men alone? I'm an egalitarian and don't believe women need to be spoon fed self-esteem.
Well said. It’s a war central book you shouldn’t expect a lot of women
Tolkien's Eowyn is one of the most anti-feminist characters/character arcs in literary history. Jackson's Eowyn isn't really Tolkien's, but it also isn't really Jackson's - it belongs to the two feminist white female co-writers, as does Arwen. These two women did what they could to sneak in feminism - which includes misandry, hatred of men, putting down of men. When Galadriel says "were gifted to the race of men, who above all else, desire power" and Elrond says "Men? Men are weak" those are meant to be cheer lines for anti-male feminists. You can see some on YT reacting to it and enthusiastically YES GIRL!ing at those lines. Similarly, while everyone has come to take it for granted, Arwen's action scene if you actually think about is frankly bizarre. It makes no sense with the character or anything else we ever see from her or hear about her. As far as we can tell she sits around in Renaissance paintings all day dreaming about love. But then apparently she randomly becomes a great action warrior and horse rider. In the books scene, the flight to the ford, is given to a male warrior elf like Legolas, named Glorfindel iirc. And I think the spell on the river is either there automatically or Elrond does it from Rivendell. But anyway, Eowyn. Tolkien was not a feminist. His Eowyn arc is - this daughter/niece of a warrior culture has taken in/taken on warrior culture values. She is a shieldmaiden with warrior values. Tolkien, medievalist scholar, understands shieldmaidenry and its place in history, and imo uses LOTR and Eowyn to reconcile it with his civilized Christian worldview. This is really what much of the entire project of LOTR is, and that is what Eowyn is about. She's a shieldmaiden w those values but she is still a woman. So she is depicted w Aragorn demonstrating hyper-hypergamy. She sees the greatest/highest male warrior and immediately wants him. Bases her whole self-value on getting him. This in the films confuses modern viewers, esp women. "You just met him, you're in love w him?" Yes, she covets him immediately, bc he is the top guy, mr A+ number 1 in the world warrior, and she is a female w warrior culture values. She wants THAT guy. Immediately. He doesn't want her, he's spoken for (by a female who is nothing like her, btw - nor anything like film-Arwen; book Arwen is no warrior woman; and the Arwen-Aragorn breakup stuff isn't in the books at all). So after her hypergamy move of getting Aragorn fails, she becomes immediately despondent and suicidal. That hypergamy try for Aragorn was her only way to win as a woman while having her warrior values. She was trying to serve two masters there. Get a man, but he's the greatest warrior man. Well, he rejects her, and so she goes fully into warrior mode - she wants to die gloriously in battle. Immediately. This in the books is why she goes into the Pelennor fields battle. To die in battle and salvage SOMETHING from this life at least, after failing w Aragorn. And that is the real meaning of her scenes after the battle, in the Houses of Healing. That's what she's sick with - despair. And this despair sickens her even after Aragorn heals her injuries. Then the key scenes, she meets and falls in love with Faramir. And Tolkien is very clear in his language here - he has her, in the language he uses, basically put away 'warrior' or masculine things forever, and enthusiastically embrace the feminine. And then she lives happily ever after w Faramir in Ithilien, as Queen or Princess of Ithilien, I forget which. The films anyway meanwhile are full of non-book scenes recasting her entire meaning and motive, trying to pump up the sexism w absurd dialogue from people like Eomer, w Eowyn always trying to be in the battle and always being told by the men she can't bc she's a girl. It is just lame.
Tolkien's Eowyn is a much more realistic, nuanced, thoughtful version of the character, and much more instructive. And much more inspiring to good women.
This is when you get on the horse and go to the war lol. Byeeeeee 😃
So, this is my thing with Eowyn: As I recall, no other person besides her uses the term "Shield maiden," and no other woman in all of Tolkien's writing that I'm aware of fights as one, and when Eowyn fights, she fights disguised as a man. She made up the role of a woman warrior, everyone tells her there's no such thing (and there isn't), and when she does fight she has to take a masculine persona to do it. It seems like a very clear gender divide. She steps out of her place, has to become masculine to do it, and returns to being feminine.
Your arguments about gardeners are ok, but only from Faramir's perspective. I'm not sure gardeners are in fact held in high honor in the Shire, at least before Sam came home. Bilbo and Frodo treat Sam and the Gaffer well, but they are clearly lower class. They pay rent on Bagshot Row, right? Faramir just doesn't understand how the Shire really works. And then you have characters like Denethor and Boromir who have a completely different opinion about war. Boromir has to blow the stupid horn at the start of a secret journey. He's all in for fighting. I don't know why you would privilege Faramir's opinions as authorial intention over other characters.
The point isn’t how the Shire actually operates but Faramir’s opinion, based on limited information though it be, because it shows us his own priorities. And Faramir’s opinion is relevant because Tolkien explicitly said Faramir was the character most like him.
I think it's pretty clear that Tolkien regards Faramir as having a healthier attitude than his brother or father. They fail the test of the ring - he passed it. It's not that Faramir's attitude is universal - it's uncommon, but it's right.
Sam is not held in high honour in the Shire because the Shire is not perfect. The Sackville-Baggins bring Mirror to the Shire, and defeating Mordor brings Sam to the leadership.
Was Tolkien sexist? Probably. He was also born before women suffrage was a thing in Britain. That being said, I dont quite get where people come from when it comes to showing sexism in the LotR. True, there arent many female characters, but all of the ones that do have large roles are, to put it bluntly, complete badasses. True, not many of them swing a sword, but I maintain that martial strength is the absolutely last element a strong character needs, a cherry on top if you will.
OK, so I can sort of see where those people are coming from...exept for the fact that thats literally also what the Hobbits do. And Faramir. Besides which, I'd argue that you need far more strength of character to be a healer than anything else. Anyone can pick up a sword, its easy to go and fight, but the healer has to wait, left behind until the fighters return. I personally believe that the people who dont fight, who have to wait alone, are far stronger than the ones who do the fighting. No shade on the fighters obviously, they are more than worthy of respect, but the people who stay? Who have to wait and not know if their loved ones are alive or dead? They are just as strong.
I dont think that she ever 'realized her place as a woman' or anything stupid like that, it was more that she had her perspective shifted. Much like a warlord who sought nothing but voilence being taught that peace and healing is a better option really. We see it in other stories all the time, the only difference is that the character is a woman.
I actually think in much the same way. A warriors role should be temporary, a necessity, not something to strive for.
I imagine Galadriel would swing a mean sword, although it wasn't her focus. IIRC, she was described as being man-tall and man-strong - and, of course, she had eight thousand years to practice.
@@iancampbell4984 Oh, obviously. The idea that she couldn't fight is utterly laughable, my point was more that it wasnt her primary role.
Eowyn is not a feminist. She’s a strong human being living in a world of meninists!
Yes, of course, sexism 🙄
There's a lot of sexism in this world, but I don't think Eowyn changing her mind on what she wants is sexism. Yes, and I don't like her (in the books and in the film), she is annyoing, almost as annoying as Denethor.
Eowyn's portrayal is so non sexist that if you put her dialogue word for word in an adaptation, Id bet there are some very stupid people who would call it "feminist propaganda" or "woke" or (insert reactionary buzzword here).lol. She has way more psychological depth and theres so much more going on with her than any superficial narrative about her. Shes depicted as a three dimensional human being, which to me is true feminism: treating women like actual people.
👍👍
I mean... that person called YOU a sexist, not Tolkien, those are some deflecting abilities there XD
Jokes apart, I think Tolkien was PROBABLY sexist, just because of his culture, but he wasn't more sexist than most of his contemporaries. In fact he made a lot of effort to empower women in the books. Look, most male are very bad when it comes to write female characters. They draw fantasized women, rarely real people. Good writers usually KNOW IT, and they are very careful when writing female characters. I think that's mainly why Tolkien had so few women in his stories: He understood his own weaknesses and reacted by writing less women, but those he wrote, he really put an effort to make them really cool.
I mean, Eowyn, Arwen, Galadriel, even the elderly women in the healing houses in Gondor, I liked her a lot even if she plays a very stereotyped character.
:) Faramir is amazing! He is probably third generation of Gondorians living in state of constant war, yet he preserved such peaceful views on life
Bruh cmon lol
Tolkien wasn't sexist
If there is evidence of sexism, it's the horrendous comic relief character of Ioreth. I know the intention is good clean fun, but bleh.
"Look at those plain folk, haha!" humour always rubbed me the wrong way...
I don’t think even that’s an example. We all know women and even men like that, so she’s just a type of character. But she is also given the line about the hands of a king being the hands of a healer, which shows that even a shallow sort of person can have their own wisdom.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Fair enough, but it is definitely an example of Tolkien being a fuddy-duddy.
Why? Because he puts all kinds of characters in his world? There are silly, grumpy, mean people of all races and sexes in Middle-earth, just as we have today.
@@TolkienLorePodcast The comedy falls flat. It just does. Not unlike the landlord scene in 'The Godfather Part II'. I just hurry through those parts.
No
No?
@@glennsnapp290 Is Eowyn a Victim of Tolkien's Sexism? No