You know something I do upright rows instead, and although it's a compound movement I still really feel a huge stimulus and I can do more sets and reps without getting as overly close to failure as I do with Lateral raises. I am quite new to this so it kinda comes down to me not having the strongest shoulders, but lateral raises just feel to hard to feel productive, I even tried cable Lateral raises and it was still stupidly hard. Do you guys think I should just insist on lateral raises and just go as light as necessary or can the upright rows do a good job as well?
Ever since your shoulder video you did with Jeff Nippard I took your favorite side delt exercise (super ROM lateral raises) and Jeff's favorite (cross body cable "Y" raise) and I am seeing great results with my shoulders! By far my favorite muscle I'm developing as a new lifter.
@@patriarchmikeWhat does it matter who cares? I don’t care myself I’m just making an observation bc is funny he trying to demonstrate different movements but making the same movement 3 times lol
"There is no right way" can be applied to just about every aspect of body building and strength training. It's all about what works for you as an individual. There are many ways to grow muscle and get stronger. I get so annoyed when fitness influencers tell people that there is only one way to do a lift or to eat. There is no one frequency, no one routine, no one diet. There is just trial and error.
Imperceptible difference between his demo of almost to parallel and just above parallel. His almost to parallel is just above parallel 😂. But it’s Dr Mike so he gets a leave pass just cos he’s so frikken adorable
I fucking immobilized myself with neck pain for 48 hours recently doing db lateral raises. I did slightly more volume (like 1 set more) than usual and felt some discomfort. Then doing some db curls the next day, after 2 sets my neck hurt incredibly bad until I was left with my neck stuck nearly horizontal with incredible pain otherwise. Moral of the story, dont tense your neck like crazy when lateral raising and dont swing around. I don’t think I was using sloppy form but the injury says otherwise
Do you have a serious warm up routine? The days I’m lazy with my warmups are when stuff like that happens. Usually my issue is cable rows when I turn my head slightly once I have to put in more effort…suddenly that weird feeling hits and I know imma be hurting when I wake up the next day smh
After parallel it mainly becomes rhomboids and lower traps. Lu raises. Very good for shoulder health but I'd prefer parallel ROM for main focus on lateral delts.
Yes but the idea is that your delts are still engaged and increasingly so on the eccentric phase which, when performed slowly and with a stretch at the bottom, causes the most hypertrophy.
been doing super ROM for a couple months now and I can no longer fit through the doorways of my house. seriously blew up my side delts. thanks Dr Mike!
The super long ROM is actually a different exercise since you have to rotate your umerus thus changing the focus to the anterior portion of the deltoid. Not necessarily bad, just not the same as the point of the lateral raise
Wouldn't the lower portion of the movement be medial deltoid focus, with the upper portion of the movement (above parallel) be more trapezius and front deltoid focused?
I'm 77 now. My shoulders are shot. No cartilage in my left one. I do my lateral raises with arms bent at the elbow as if using a machine. Machines hurt, where as, DBs don't.
I really think, especially given the research doing partials on this exercise specifically using a way heavier load and working in a longer muscle length might be good. Also cheat laterals making it harder at the bottom and similarly as difficult at the top is good. Time to finally recommend cheat variants mike, the pro bodybuilders intuited something there imo it's not just ego bs. Or even if it started with ego crap, it just so happens to be worthful.
Lateral head of deltoid helps in shoulder abduction from 15 to 90 degrees only. Above that it is by traps and serratus anterior So anything above parallel to ground, if provides extra pump is mostly due to time under tension and not the muscle working through that extra ROM by itself
Have plenty of people tell me I'm not working shoulders right since I'm the "all the way up" guy. Everytime I get told to only go parallel or just below. For me all the way up works 3x better. I feel the mid head work over time and my pump is great. So I just respond with "yeah, yeah, I appreciate it man" then go back to all the way up 😂. It's what works for me and my shoulders look great.
I like the super ROM one only cuz my shoulders can take the movement. It doesn't need to be heavy AF either. It's helped my shoulders look bigger and keep the ROM.
I try that full room variant today and my shoulder exploded. I'm adapting all my training with 3 exercise and lot of myorps and full full range of motion. Is a game changing. Im sore as fk
I’ve heard from bodybuilders or trainers where they speak about elbows being higher than the wrist & or twisting in the wrist as almost a pouring movement for side lateral raises. Any video content you’ve done about this “myth?” Love the videos and content as always!
But above parallel people must understand that if the shoulder isn't exteriorly rotated the movement comes from elevation and upward rotation of the scapula....I always tell people "thumbs towards the sky"
@@dudel39 you're wrong. Explain because the front delts are generally used in 90%of shoulder exercises.....rear delts the last 10% explain to me how I'm wrong.
@@zachsprinkle9139 im not sure what you trying to say here. Im not questioning that the frontdelts get worked in most shoulder workouts. Thats why its so important that you focus on the side delts with lateral raises. When your shoulders get rotated outwards, he front delts will have to take over because that part of the shoulder is facing upwards. Also I disagree with the Video . I dont think there is actually any point in raising your arms above parallel, because to get higher your body always will use the traps.
@@dudel39 smart guy.....and I like you for questioning me. Once a lateral raise goes higher than the shoulder......it's scapular upward rotation....yes which is the traps. Man I wish we lived closer so we could grab a burger because you're smart.
I've read several papers discussing how shoulder raises (other than front raises) have minimal shoulder activation and hypertrophy mainly due to them being EXTREMELY difficult to do without engaging traps or even rhomboids on the con/eccentric. Has this changed? I can't remember the publication year of them off the top of my head.
Fantastic info. I had one question on form though, Palms down vs palms forward. Is there a significant difference? I find with palms forward I can get the full range easier but I don't want to ruin anything.
With lateral raises and bicep curls why isn't the principle of stretch under load ever considered. It is essential for every other muscle group when picking what variation you choose, why not for these muscle groups aswell?
If following the consequences of the recent results from Milo Wolfs research on lenghtened partial, wouldn’t heavy partials in the lenghtened position be better? Like the way John Meadows recommend you do them?
My shoulders can take it. A gym staff member told me it's a "horrible movement" and that I shouldn't do it because people like him with "developed lats" might use too much weight and hurt their rotator cuff. I couldn't see his lats through the fat under his t shirt and I couldn't understand why he said that until later then he must think lateral raises work the lats 😔
Mike O’Hearn has been doing the full ROM ones for the past 20 years & had been ridiculed by «science» guys for doing shoulder impingement inducing exercises. Time to put respect on Mike O’tren’s name & listen to his actual knowledge outside the memes
I use Mike's advice to ignore this advice. The most important part of the exercise is the stretch. Any higher than almost parallel is only increasing fatigue by engaging the traps to lift the shoulder. Stay below parallel folks
Hearing there are options is sometimes what people need to hear, everything is so min/max these days, this or that, black and white when there are actually 50 shades of grey....
I just started getting shoulder pain going all out on these. Any advice for the healing process? Ive taken 5 days off and i did a test run and lightly threw a ball and still in a lot of pain.
I do below parallels on the cable since one of my shoulders can´t take parallel without some weird pain after a few days. Not optimal, but better than not doing them.
I used to do a a technique where I’d throw them up do a micro catch at the top of the rep I found it helped get a good activation of the portion of my shoulder that didn’t feel like it would activate from slow reps, it sounds stupid but if u get what I mean u should give it a try. I did it usually at the end of my workouts just to get everything toasted I’d explode up and do a catch sometimes I’d do it with the intention of holding it there either way that’s my best way to get that area pumped up and fried I did this shit sitting down by the way, I always disliked standing raises
SFR for me with the super ROM is very bad. I try that one from time to time as an intensity technique (mechanical dropset) but I do parallel on a regular basis
Is the over parallel raise healthy for my shoulders though? I wanna add it to my shoulder routine but I'm not sure if its actually gonna do more god than bad for my shoulders you see😅
I think the full RoM raise has no benefit. No stretch-mediated hypertrophy up there and the side delts also loose leverage above parallel and front delt takes over
I don't believe there is any benefit to going past parallel. IMO, it's more important to fully control the eccentric (~3 sec) and only decline to around 30 degrees at the bottom. This maintains tension at the bottom and it really bites you in a stretched position. Half reps and quarter reps at the end of a set are also just fine. Toss ego out the door and keep the weight light. This is one of the few lifts I prefer >10 reps.
Muscles work together, so it’s normal that traps are taking over at some point of the movement. Is it bad? No. Is it good? Also no. It just is how it is and can be a good way of doing lateral raises. If you want to focus on delts purely, try doing them on cables with the cable on knee height. Gives a deep stretch which is shown to benefit hypertropy :)
Anyone here hang from a pull up bar and then do banded serratus wall slides before doing shoulder work? Doing that, I can do lu raises and go heavy on cable lateral raises.
A pump is not the same as actual targeting muscle groups. Above parallel your delts are not being loaded anymore and is just a waste of time and energy to get a useless and temporary "pump".
Saw some guy in the gym today with 40 lb dumbbells doing "lateral raises" with bent ass elbows and coming up to about his sternum... No control on the eccentric... I just let ego lifters move that weight and sigh on the inside
The problem is that most people hit lateral raises for side delt and above 90° is it’ll turn more front delt, especially that last variant you see the shoulder rotate to frontdelt.
This dude is great.a meat head with a beautiful brain and heart. Smart buff and empathatic.
You do know meat head means stupid person, right?
Cool shape to his skull is a plus
@@SuperDodoehexagonal skull
you can't call someone a meat head while also calling them smart
@@isaiahalvarez7147then I guess he isn't a meathead
I feel like the last version, like a lu raise makes my banged up shoulders feel BETTER. The weight is 5kg plate per hand and reps of 15-20
whats Ive been doing and the pumps are insane and my shoulders dont feel stiff as shit.
Yeah but you have to externally rotate in order to go all the way up
I think the way I see Olympic weight lifters do this, aka the Lu raise, they have a slight forward to facilitate range of motion
I go to almost parallel. Probably similar stimulus between all the exercises.
I was suffering from a shoulder injury and the full ROM variant was what I did in physical therapy. Extremely effective!
The lateral raise has to be the most subjective exercise there is. You just gotta figure out what form you connect with the best.
For sure. Going parallel makes it almost pure trap activation for me
You know something I do upright rows instead, and although it's a compound movement I still really feel a huge stimulus and I can do more sets and reps without getting as overly close to failure as I do with Lateral raises. I am quite new to this so it kinda comes down to me not having the strongest shoulders, but lateral raises just feel to hard to feel productive, I even tried cable Lateral raises and it was still stupidly hard. Do you guys think I should just insist on lateral raises and just go as light as necessary or can the upright rows do a good job as well?
Ever since your shoulder video you did with Jeff Nippard I took your favorite side delt exercise (super ROM lateral raises) and Jeff's favorite (cross body cable "Y" raise) and I am seeing great results with my shoulders! By far my favorite muscle I'm developing as a new lifter.
Dr Mike's definition of almost parallel, parallel and above parallel are practically the same😂
Camera angle makes it seem that way
@@patriarchmikenah they were all above parallel
I came to comments to find this hahah
@@ravivanlent1824 who cares?
@@patriarchmikeWhat does it matter who cares? I don’t care myself I’m just making an observation bc is funny he trying to demonstrate different movements but making the same movement 3 times lol
I honestly prefer the super rom lateral raises, aka Lu raises. People at the gym look at me funny when I do them, though.
I bet 😂 amazing movement tho ❤
Well, why wouldn't they?
I be getting the same looks my boy. Can't wait to see how they look at me next year when I have those boulder shoulders!
@@daydreamingphantom777 Why would I make that up? Tf you mean lol. I never said people gave me a hard time, I just get the looks.
They be 'miring, my man!
Sick pump, Mike
Lu laterals make my shoulders feel AMAZING made all my shoulder pain go away !!!
"There is no right way" can be applied to just about every aspect of body building and strength training. It's all about what works for you as an individual. There are many ways to grow muscle and get stronger. I get so annoyed when fitness influencers tell people that there is only one way to do a lift or to eat. There is no one frequency, no one routine, no one diet. There is just trial and error.
I went further. I started flapping like a bird 🦅 and flew around the gym.
That’s probably because you were on LSD or mushrooms or some really potent marijuana!👀👀👀👽👽👽💥💥💥😀
Bro… I had to come back and find this short to say that the super rom is absolutely nutty with the pump. 👌🏼👌🏼👌🏼
Dr Mike is really into it
Imperceptible difference between his demo of almost to parallel and just above parallel. His almost to parallel is just above parallel 😂. But it’s Dr Mike so he gets a leave pass just cos he’s so frikken adorable
I fucking immobilized myself with neck pain for 48 hours recently doing db lateral raises. I did slightly more volume (like 1 set more) than usual and felt some discomfort. Then doing some db curls the next day, after 2 sets my neck hurt incredibly bad until I was left with my neck stuck nearly horizontal with incredible pain otherwise. Moral of the story, dont tense your neck like crazy when lateral raising and dont swing around. I don’t think I was using sloppy form but the injury says otherwise
Do you have a serious warm up routine? The days I’m lazy with my warmups are when stuff like that happens. Usually my issue is cable rows when I turn my head slightly once I have to put in more effort…suddenly that weird feeling hits and I know imma be hurting when I wake up the next day smh
After parallel it mainly becomes rhomboids and lower traps. Lu raises. Very good for shoulder health but I'd prefer parallel ROM for main focus on lateral delts.
Yes but the idea is that your delts are still engaged and increasingly so on the eccentric phase which, when performed slowly and with a stretch at the bottom, causes the most hypertrophy.
@@danielkanewske8473dont think there is much going on on the bottom, but slowed eccentric to the end is quite hard
If you have enough understanding of the movement this is brilliant. As a beginner parallel it please
been doing super ROM for a couple months now and I can no longer fit through the doorways of my house. seriously blew up my side delts. thanks Dr Mike!
The super long ROM is actually a different exercise since you have to rotate your umerus thus changing the focus to the anterior portion of the deltoid. Not necessarily bad, just not the same as the point of the lateral raise
Wouldn't the lower portion of the movement be medial deltoid focus, with the upper portion of the movement (above parallel) be more trapezius and front deltoid focused?
@@davidk6269yes, exactly
Love doing a lateral to parallel, then a Lu raise for that sweet scapular rotation
I found that if you make sure your knuckles could touch, it prevents the anterior delt from taking over completely
@@davidk6269 Yes, precisely
I'm 77 now. My shoulders are shot. No cartilage in my left one. I do my lateral raises with arms bent at the elbow as if using a machine. Machines hurt, where as, DBs don't.
I'm a just-short-of-parallel guy. Also can't do super deep dips, but I get the stretch from what I can do.
The shoulder joint benefits when you turn your thumbs up, the opposite of pouring the pitcher.
Thanks Dr Mike, I've broken both collarbones multiple times from cycling so it can be painful at times.
I really think, especially given the research doing partials on this exercise specifically using a way heavier load and working in a longer muscle length might be good. Also cheat laterals making it harder at the bottom and similarly as difficult at the top is good. Time to finally recommend cheat variants mike, the pro bodybuilders intuited something there imo it's not just ego bs. Or even if it started with ego crap, it just so happens to be worthful.
Lateral head of deltoid helps in shoulder abduction from 15 to 90 degrees only.
Above that it is by traps and serratus anterior
So anything above parallel to ground, if provides extra pump is mostly due to time under tension and not the muscle working through that extra ROM by itself
Have plenty of people tell me I'm not working shoulders right since I'm the "all the way up" guy. Everytime I get told to only go parallel or just below. For me all the way up works 3x better. I feel the mid head work over time and my pump is great. So I just respond with "yeah, yeah, I appreciate it man" then go back to all the way up 😂. It's what works for me and my shoulders look great.
Can you next time show a side view too please? Here I'm wondering if people do bring the dbells a bit forward during the rotation for the full motion?
Bro I dont even fully get to parallel after 5 reps and it still feels great
I like the super ROM one only cuz my shoulders can take the movement. It doesn't need to be heavy AF either. It's helped my shoulders look bigger and keep the ROM.
Awesome tips
If you get elbow pain turn your wrists to remove the stress from your forearms
I try that full room variant today and my shoulder exploded.
I'm adapting all my training with 3 exercise and lot of myorps and full full range of motion. Is a game changing. Im sore as fk
I’ve heard from bodybuilders or trainers where they speak about elbows being higher than the wrist & or twisting in the wrist as almost a pouring movement for side lateral raises. Any video content you’ve done about this “myth?”
Love the videos and content as always!
Super ROM is phenomenal. That's the only lat raise i do now.
But above parallel people must understand that if the shoulder isn't exteriorly rotated the movement comes from elevation and upward rotation of the scapula....I always tell people "thumbs towards the sky"
You will be working front delts instead of side delts if you do that. Which defeats the purpose of the exercise.
@@dudel39 you're wrong. Explain because the front delts are generally used in 90%of shoulder exercises.....rear delts the last 10% explain to me how I'm wrong.
@@zachsprinkle9139 im not sure what you trying to say here. Im not questioning that the frontdelts get worked in most shoulder workouts. Thats why its so important that you focus on the side delts with lateral raises. When your shoulders get rotated outwards, he front delts will have to take over because that part of the shoulder is facing upwards.
Also I disagree with the Video . I dont think there is actually any point in raising your arms above parallel, because to get higher your body always will use the traps.
@@dudel39 smart guy.....and I like you for questioning me. Once a lateral raise goes higher than the shoulder......it's scapular upward rotation....yes which is the traps. Man I wish we lived closer so we could grab a burger because you're smart.
@@dudel39 Mike is a really good trainer but doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.
I thought there was something wrong with me. Glad to know I'm not the only one with sensitive shoulders
I like to go Lu Raise Style. Since I tried my shoulders made a massive change in strength, ROM and of course, size.
#lu raises?
Yes basically
I love watching Lu Xiaojun do the "Lu" raises.
I was born without shoulder joints, what would you recommend?
Options are like assholes…
I like them
I've read several papers discussing how shoulder raises (other than front raises) have minimal shoulder activation and hypertrophy mainly due to them being EXTREMELY difficult to do without engaging traps or even rhomboids on the con/eccentric. Has this changed? I can't remember the publication year of them off the top of my head.
Danny de vito got a sick pump
The super ROM is magic
Super ROM lights my traps up
Fantastic info. I had one question on form though, Palms down vs palms forward. Is there a significant difference? I find with palms forward I can get the full range easier but I don't want to ruin anything.
LU raise is the meta!
Simple and good
Super rom is even further-approaching Crossing arms
With lateral raises and bicep curls why isn't the principle of stretch under load ever considered. It is essential for every other muscle group when picking what variation you choose, why not for these muscle groups aswell?
Literally had no idea I was even allowed to raise it over my shoulder
Lateral raises are actually elbows movement
If following the consequences of the recent results from Milo Wolfs research on lenghtened partial, wouldn’t heavy partials in the lenghtened position be better? Like the way John Meadows recommend you do them?
My shoulders can take it. A gym staff member told me it's a "horrible movement" and that I shouldn't do it because people like him with "developed lats" might use too much weight and hurt their rotator cuff.
I couldn't see his lats through the fat under his t shirt and I couldn't understand why he said that until later then he must think lateral raises work the lats 😔
Yes I don't have to feel like a dufus when doing these.
Mike O’Hearn has been doing the full ROM ones for the past 20 years & had been ridiculed by «science» guys for doing shoulder impingement inducing exercises.
Time to put respect on Mike O’tren’s name & listen to his actual knowledge outside the memes
The best option is the one that doesn't injure you. How do you know if your "shoulder can take it"? You don't until you're already injured 😅
I use Mike's advice to ignore this advice. The most important part of the exercise is the stretch. Any higher than almost parallel is only increasing fatigue by engaging the traps to lift the shoulder. Stay below parallel folks
I like watching Mike's videos to remind me how puny I am. Thanks, Mike.
Hearing there are options is sometimes what people need to hear, everything is so min/max these days, this or that, black and white when there are actually 50 shades of grey....
My shoulder joints making contact with basically every surrounding bone in the area whenever I move it in any way at all:
I just started getting shoulder pain going all out on these. Any advice for the healing process? Ive taken 5 days off and i did a test run and lightly threw a ball and still in a lot of pain.
I’ve been doing super rom laterals and my god I love them.. my shoulders have never felt better
I do below parallels on the cable since one of my shoulders can´t take parallel without some weird pain after a few days. Not optimal, but better than not doing them.
I used to do a a technique where I’d throw them up do a micro catch at the top of the rep I found it helped get a good activation of the portion of my shoulder that didn’t feel like it would activate from slow reps, it sounds stupid but if u get what I mean u should give it a try. I did it usually at the end of my workouts just to get everything toasted I’d explode up and do a catch sometimes I’d do it with the intention of holding it there either way that’s my best way to get that area pumped up and fried
I did this shit sitting down by the way, I always disliked standing raises
i have AC damage in my right shoulder, weirdly the full rom actually gives me the least pain, with stopping at 90 degrees giving the most.
Thought I was the only cursed one that has shoulder issues... cheers
SFR for me with the super ROM is very bad. I try that one from time to time as an intensity technique (mechanical dropset) but I do parallel on a regular basis
I use Charles Glass safe Lat raises.
Cant beat the last one for insane pump its a liller but feels amazing
Doesnt the lu raise help a bunch with lockput power, helps a bunch for people that use a jerk
Is it just me, or was the doc going beyond parallel after the first example.
Not just you. The first two demonstrations were almost identical😂
Good video one time I was doing this exercise I don't know what happened I pulled my groin I dropped the weight it head hurt so bad
Is the over parallel raise healthy for my shoulders though? I wanna add it to my shoulder routine but I'm not sure if its actually gonna do more god than bad for my shoulders you see😅
I think the full RoM raise has no benefit. No stretch-mediated hypertrophy up there and the side delts also loose leverage above parallel and front delt takes over
My upper traps are everytime sore with lateral raises. idk why 😢
Traps are taking the load which is good , gives nice shaped traps
His below parallel looked above parallel
Where can you get that shirt
I don't believe there is any benefit to going past parallel. IMO, it's more important to fully control the eccentric (~3 sec) and only decline to around 30 degrees at the bottom. This maintains tension at the bottom and it really bites you in a stretched position. Half reps and quarter reps at the end of a set are also just fine.
Toss ego out the door and keep the weight light. This is one of the few lifts I prefer >10 reps.
Dr Mike 🤘
And than my PT asks me if I’m trying to take of by going full ROM. Smh
I barely go parallel. Every time I go above the shoulders I only feel it in my traps
My traps take over if I try going over parallel. I tried lowering the weight and still the same issue.
Because over 90° abduction traps takes the movement. I think this super ROM or whatever and better pumps from it etc. is related to time under tension
Muscles work together, so it’s normal that traps are taking over at some point of the movement. Is it bad? No. Is it good? Also no. It just is how it is and can be a good way of doing lateral raises. If you want to focus on delts purely, try doing them on cables with the cable on knee height. Gives a deep stretch which is shown to benefit hypertropy :)
He made the first 3 identical😅
Why did all of them but the last one look the same to me?
Sir I don't think you know what parallel means.
What about partial rep with heavy load?
is it bad i’ve been doing all the way up like the last one every time i lateral raise? just feels like im doing half reps if i only go to parallel
The rom he showed was basically the same in every case. Kinda starting to believe the whole phd thing is a lie 😳
Hilarious. I thought the same thing. Certainly almost no difference between the first two😂
How in the world can people go all the way up without damaging the join even with light weights?
Anyone here hang from a pull up bar and then do banded serratus wall slides before doing shoulder work? Doing that, I can do lu raises and go heavy on cable lateral raises.
I can do super rom laterals, but any barbell bench variation has unconsensual intercourse with my shoulders
Back In my day we had Mike metzer, nowadays we have Dr Mike 🙏🏼💪🏼❤️
Does anyone feel like lateral raises at parallel works too much traps?
To the point and no 🐂💩
A pump is not the same as actual targeting muscle groups. Above parallel your delts are not being loaded anymore and is just a waste of time and energy to get a useless and temporary "pump".
No point in going super heavy on these either. (I have the biggest shoulders in the gym too) lol
Saw some guy in the gym today with 40 lb dumbbells doing "lateral raises" with bent ass elbows and coming up to about his sternum... No control on the eccentric... I just let ego lifters move that weight and sigh on the inside
Lu raises give me a crazy pump
Just showing what you can do on the sauce.
I'm a sensitive shoulder guy.
The problem is that most people hit lateral raises for side delt and above 90° is it’ll turn more front delt, especially that last variant you see the shoulder rotate to frontdelt.