One of the funnies that came out of the failed merger of the SP and Santa Fe was when they painted their locos with the "SPSF" logo, it produced the saying " Shouldn't Paint So Fast" :)
@@arizonalurps5150 It spread through the valley pretty much taking over everything, I remember the day the usual "Cotton Belt" gp9 assigned to the Visalia Electric (a wholly owned SP road from Goshen jct. to Exeter) went away and in its place was a freshly painted SP Kodachrome gp9. Even a few weeks ago I saw a faded Kodachrome unit on the dead line in Roseville.
Your thoughts and comments are interesting and mostly right on. I started with SP as a clerk at the headquarters office building in early 1966. My career was: messenger-clerk, accounting clerk, Passenger Reservation clerk --> merged into "freight car tracking" with job title of Traffic Service Clerk, clerk on the staff of the "central" Traffic Manager, Passenger Sales Representative (I'm the last one still living)*, freight salesman (SF, Marysville, Chico), Chief Clerk district sales, Sacramento, Asst to Regional Sales Manager, Sacramento, Asst. Mgr Commerce (San Francisco), Group Manager-Tarriffs (Tariff Publishing Manger for SP/SSW). I took a "buyout" in the fall of 1987 after 21-1/2 years with SP. *Note: I was also one of the last to "work up" through the ranks, subsequently new "exempt" employees were hired as college graduates. The roots of the "troubles" for SP started years before you were even hired. Under government regulation, the railroad's return on investment was less than "other" businesses. For years, SP minimized investment in the railroad (see "Sprint" a telephone company formed by SP and eventually sold to others, purchase of TICOR, a title insurance company, etc.). In December 1983, a merger between SP and ATSF began. The non-transportation assets were immediately combined (major asset, SP Land Company that owned all the "land grants" dating back to the 1860s and other non-operating lands owned by the company). This essentially stripped the SP railroad from assets long used to support the operations when times were tough. (The Land company was combined with a similar ATSF land operation, and spun off. It changed its name to something that I've forgotten but was operating independently as a land developer, last I knew.) With the SP in a "voting trust", we were given a "caretaker" management (Mr. D.K.McNear was Chairman, who was a long time employee SP; I recall that a long-time SP lawyer was named president of SP). Middle management was told "we must live within our means as we have no sources of outside capital during the consideration of the merger by the ICC. Meanwhile after the previous management of the sales & marketing ("traffic department") retired, an outside (who previously managed a cannery) was hired as VP, and a young man, Bruce Howe, was hired as system sales manager (I forget his exact title). The idea was made to "maximize" revenue by encouraging shippers to request SP-SSW routing (even on traffic originating in Oregon and Northern California -- even though that traffic was handled more quickly via Ogden UT). There was some success to the sales efforts, but the "T&L lines (SP/SSW east of El Paso) got hammered with more traffic than they could efficiently handle (again, while the "Pacific Lines" where being starved of capital, the T&L lines had it even worse (e.g. much less CTC territory, shorter passing tracks/sidings, and so on). For years, SP complained about "government regulation" -- in 1980, they got their "wish" (but be careful what you wish for). the "Staggers Rail Act of 1980" significantly reduced regulation (and resulted in the end of the ICC by 1988), it turned out that SP was NOT the "low cost producer" ... and UP (in particular) having taken over Western Pacific by that time, was able to offer contract rates that took significant traffic from SP lines in Northern California (and probably elsewhere, too). Meanwhile, the UP-RI merger case (which started in 1962) ended with 'no deal." But, the failing Rock Island (which connected with SP at Tucumcari, NM) ended up being broken up. SSW (for technical reasons) purchased the RI's KC-Tucumcari line. (This gave SP/SSW a 300 mile shorter route from Los Angeles to KC/St Louis gateways, saving money) but the "price" $57 million to the estate of the bankrupt RI, plus tens of millions more to restore usable track put further strain on SP's finances. It was smart to buy RI, but the $$ to fix it was a big negative. (Blame the regulators for spending decades not making reasonable decisions about the RI Line.) The TRUCKS! The 1988 Staggers Act also deregulated truck freight lines. In short order, most long-distance truckers became non-union and made other operational changes. The economics of running triple-trailer rigs (legal in Oregon and Nevada (and other places) actually made the cost per ton-mile CHEAPER than the basic ton-mile operating cost of the railroads. (Finally, the rail operating unions understood that 2-man crews on through freights made good sense, since there would be NO jobs with the economics of trucking about to take everything away from the rails. We also (soon enough) got rid of cabooses, an anachronism since Conductors had not been doing paperwork with waybills, etc. for some years since the billing systems had been computerized. The economics of truck v. rail was not something that "sales department" could beat. (If Walmart offers a product for 20 or 30% less than another store, all else being reasonably equal, you'll shop at Walmart, not Whole Foods!) These comments are my own opinions and analysis. I "took a buyout" from SP in the fall of 1987, and haven't looked back (much). I didn't have to move to Chicago (had the ATSF merger gone through), I didn't have to move to Denver or Omaha (though I had friends that did). And I did discover "life after SP." As for the managers and supervisors I had over the years, some were good, some were not so good, most had the best interests of the company in mind (most of the time) and this is similar to the situations at the other places I worked after leaving SP.
Just want to you know that what the railroad pumped into SPCC, they sold for almost a billion dollars to GTE. That billion dollars was an input into the railroad coffers. My father was an Executive Officer at one market when you were there. He was one of the developers and conceivers of SPCC/SPRINT through their microwave system. He was the Assistant General Superintendent of Communications- System. He and the General Superintendent of Communications System essentially "ran" the whole communications department (9th floor) for the railroad. You talked on it he had either bought it or requisitioned it for the railroad. Odds are you were talking over lines that were created with the concept of his department. Their microwave system at that time was the largest privately owned microwave system in the world. Do you ever remember seeing a microwave tower on top of One Market? The railroad developed The microwave system because telephone poles along right away where the least effective way for communication. Everything had to be communicated through those towers. CTC, TOPs computers everything.At one time there were over 220 microwave sites owned by the railroad. It was just as easy for them to split this off and make the SPCC. A early 1970s? ruling by the FCC against AT&T allowed this and SPRINT was able to be formed. . Not every department with the railroad was sucking the money from the railroad. This was a huge moneymaker for the railroad at the time of its sale.. My father started out as a grunt/ditch digger in the communications department. He was promoted to lineman climbing poles, then to Foreman of the division in Sacramento. From there they gave him the opportunity and the railroad put him through college for 3 and 1/2 years at what now is UTEP in Texas. Offered him a college education. After his college education they paid for he was promoted through the ranks to the number two position eventually in the railroad for that communications department. He too was a ground up person. His 3 and 1/2 years of college all he did was school and SP paid his monthly salary. The railroad didn't a lot of amazing things for a lot of people and their educations.
I can tell that from the point of view of the shipper (family had a couple packing houses around Tulare, well southern Fresno, the ranches were around Tulare) the SP was absolutely detested. My grandfather loved the Santa Fe on every level. That is until the infamous SPSF failed merger. We had one packing facility near Kingsburg on the SP, another in Reedly on the Santa Fe secondary From Calwa to Corcoran via Visalia.
Mark I've been a UP conductor since 2004 and I can say without a doubt the tracks right now in 2023 have never been in better shape. I work Roseville to Bakersfield on the RT01 board. Thankyou for the video and all your hard work.
Your story very much mirrors my time on the Delaware and Hudson. I hired out in 1969 as a yard clerk and things were pretty good, except we were being run by DERECO, an N&W subsidiary, which also owned the EL. I eventually started train dispatching in 1974 and worked as a dispatcher until I retired on December 16, 2019. In the mid 70s, things started to go downhill. Just as you said, track and signal gangs were cut and maintenance was spotty at best. Of course the track took the hit. After Conrail came into existence in 1976, the D&H doubled in size to become the "competitor" of Conrail. Of course there was no way we could compete with the eastern giant. Just as with the DRGW, Guilford Transportation bought the D&H in 1984 and we all thought that was our savior. But all they did was use the D&H to sell off any real estate they could and line their pockets. It was also obvious they were out to bust the unions, which led to the big BMWE strike in 1986 which put me out of work for about 3 months, and after further union busting measures, Guilford put the D&H into bankruptcy. We were operated under directed service by the NYSW railroad with financing from CSX. CP finally bought the D&H in 1991, and at the time things looked up. Track was upgraded to 50 mph and we ran trains like we hadn't since the 60s. But again CP was up against Conrail and Conrail stole a lot of the business we had. Eventually CP sold the south end of the railroad to the Norfolk Southern, leaving only the north end between Albany and Montreal under the D&H name. It was a rocky road for most of my 50 years, but luckily I was never furloughed, only time I lost was during the big Guilford strike! Retirement is GREAT!!
Since I retired I got hit with the lockdowns, had reconstructive shoulder surgery and almost died of covid and it still beats working! Thanks for checking it out! Sorry I didn't reply sooner but the Rona knocked me down!
Sorry for the late response, but PSR is what's preventing me from ever working for the railroad. Job security is basically non-existent now in that industry thanks to PSR.
Thanks for doing this video. I was born in 1980 and grew up in Burbank along the 2 lines there(Saugus & Coast) and was always a huge SP fan. The engineers brought me inside the locomotives several times and were always so friendly. The SP definitely ran a different ship. Once UP took over it didn't take long for SP's identity to get stripped and now I understand why! At the end of the day though, one company survived with one mindset and the other faltered with another. Maybe it was SP's own doing.
@William W. Campbell-Shepherd IX I love the history of all roads. I'm reading two right now. The SOO Line and the Rayonier, which was a logging shortline in Washington. I have a ton I've either read or will at some point!
Those two lines were some of my favorites for a good long while! Till recently I shifted my interests into late southern pacific and railroading in the 70s And 80s.
Coastline definitely had a slower transition to UP Powerwise at least, Patched SD40M-2s as helpers until 2009ish, then occasionally patched SP ac44s instead of the SD60M's and SD9043MACs. Palmer was the last SP Engineer out of the SLO crew base, his last run was 1/4/19.
Excellent video!!! Straight forward and in easy layman terms about UP taking over the ESpee. I kinda noticed that like you said in the video that the UP was a prick of a company about SP name. I remember seeing all the track switches that had the SP numbers were renumbered as well as all locomotives and such as you mentioned...sad none the less, I loved the Espee railroad back in the 1970's as a railroad fan. The crews back then seemed very relaxed and hard working at the same time....very good information thanks for posting
Although I grew up in Dayton, Ohio, I still remember seeing a few ex-SP SD40M-2s and Tunnel Motors still wearing their original paint on the Indiana and Ohio Railway (IORY) that ran on trackage rights along the NS Dayton District. However, I lived in El Paso, Texas from 2011-2014 and saw a plethora of patched and unpatched ex-SP units on dozens of UP trains along the Sunset Route. Miraculously, some of the old SP-era searchlight signals and switch stands along the line were still in use until they were replaced in 2012!
We were still using searchlights on the Fresno and Mojave subs until the PTC/microprocessor systems were completed in 2015. Thanks for checking it out!
Thank You for your wisdom! As a former long haul driver. I remember the failed SP SF merger painted locomotives. Codachrome schemes. SF were the blue & yellow and SP red & yellow. I used to run from Wisconsin to California and back. Hauling LTL freight all over the LA & San Joaquin valley. Thank You much, Your insight actually teaches myself the big picture of what I used to see on a regular basis. I hauled a lot of transformers to the tops of the mountains near Tehachepi. I Love the region. I gave up the long haul stint back in 1992. But still remember watching the SP uncouple helpers at the top of the summit at Tehachepi. I love your channel and thoroughly enjoy your content! Have a good day Mark! Hope all is well,.... Ken,...
Repainting the SP rolling stock must have been quite a job. I remember when the NP, GN, Burlington & SP&S merged to form the BN in 1970, things got painted in a hurry.
Quite a contrast with the BNSF merger, isn't it? There are STILL green engines running around up here in MN once in a while, though they're getting pretty rare now
Mark I hear where you’re coming from I hired out in December 19 85 at McDonald Douglas in Long Beach after getting out of the Air Force and we went through the same thing with the Boeing merger and I believe 1996 and guess what the Long Beach facility & the Aircraft that we manufactured we are discontinued by the Boeing Co. in favor of their seven series of aircraft the boys 717 would’ve been a good seller to this day but because it was designed by Douglas and not boring they canceled that and I’ll look at how many small regional jets are being manufactured by foreign companies but that’s just my opinion as well
Remy Lopez Funny I came across you’re reply. My mom worked at Certified Alloy Products across the street on the west side of Cherry Ave. I forget the year, But a DC-10 crashed on takeoff I believe out of Chicago. Rumor had it , well, no rumor, one of the engines fell off. My mom worked on certifications of the alloys. At the time she’d come home share work happenings with my dad. She kept using the term certs. As far as I was concerned it could have stood for “two, two, two mints in one - Certs.” And, that is when I found out everyone in her company, especially her department were sweating bullies thinking an engine mounting bolt failed, and perhaps it wasn’t the right metallurgy. So, they were rechecking their records, and such. It turned out the NTSB ruled it was maintenance procedures to remove & replace or swap the engine. Apparently, they used a different Hyster, or cradle or something that eliminated certain steps, which ultimately put too much stress on the bolts. Maybe didn’t shim it properly. I forget the details. But, I remember it involved the procedure that I mentioned. Small world. ✌️🤙
I grew up next to the SP tracks in the San Joaquin valley for the first 16 yrs of my life.Really liked trains and would watch the switch engine for hrs.These videos are very interesting especially the ones down south in the Mojave Desert.Thanks.
You know I read Southern Pacific talked with the Seaboard Coast Line of a possible merger in 1977. But it also never went through. If it had happened Southern Pacific would turned into a true transcontinental railroad.
Interesting hearing the opinions from an “insider”... As always, you provide great insight. Thanks for this video and, more importantly, Thanks For Your Entire Channel !!
Clay, I think you might like "Southern Pacific's Blue Streak Merchandise" book by Fred Frailey. It was published 20+ years ago, but is available (as a used book) on Amazon and eBay -- or you might get it from a library. It gives a very real look at behind the scenes operations.
I sure do miss the small Fleet of EX Southern Pacific sd45 that my local railroad, the Buffalo and Pittsburgh used to have. Love to hear those 20 cylinder engines.
The Trona Railroad uses old SP locomotives. I'm putting a piece together on the Trona. If any of their power are SD45s I'll be sure to shoot them operating!
@@MarkClayMcGowan keep up the good work. I have quite a few pictures of B&P number 454 on railpictures.net, from what I've read it was actually a ssw/Cotton Belt unit that unfortunately has been scrapped.
@@MarkClayMcGowan I don't believe they were forced out. Whatever package was offered to them I assume led them to decide which way they wanted to go. I think those within their same rank kept that rank. They weren't no longer promised raises either. I don't believe either dipped into their railroad retirements till aged out. Guess that was one good thing. They didn't lose that! Most important I guess!
As for the SPSF, when they started repainting locos it seems like all the Santa Fe sales people started leaving. It was very frustrating because you could always pick up a phone and call your rep at Santa Fe and they would solve any issue right away. SP never had any sales people or account reps as best one could tell. As the merger progressed the Santa Fe guys all lest. Then the merger was rejected, but before anyone could feel good, the rumors started getting louder and louder about both roads selling or abandoning most of the East Side lines.
My Dad was a dispatcher for SP back in the 60's and 70's. I recall his grousing about "bumping" and "seniority" and I know he was laid off in the late 50's. After my parents divorced I logged probably 10,000 miles on trips from the Oklahoma panhandle to Dunsmuir CA or Ogden UT for summer visits. I rode Rock island to Tucumcari, SP through El Paso, Tucson, Yuma, and to LA. Not streamliners either. Old clunky milk trains. Loved every minute of it. He ended up, I think, as Asst. Supt. Trans. before retirement. After high school I worked as a relief agent for the C.R.I. & P in the Texas and Okla. panhandle, 69-70. Saw the writing on the wall, went to college. Still fond of SP and the Rock (bad as it was.)
Knowing the passenger service on the late 70's on the Golden State route, you may appreciate (or not) lyrics to the The 12 Days of Christmas. Partial: On the fifth day of Christmas John Volpe gave to me Five Golden States! Four baggage dorms, three troop sleepers, two automats, and a broken down Rock Island RDC I have a video of Number 39 (I think) arriving in Tucson. That was the remnant of The Golden State Limited.
A friend of mine worked MOW for the SP in the Bay Area, he said one of the most striking changes was all the new white vehicles they received almost immediately. I hired out ten years after the merger, and I was trained by a lot of old head SP engineers. The vibe I got from them was, yeah the SP was always broke, and their equipment was ready for the scrap heap, but they took good care of their employees. UP has up to date (poorly maintained) locomotives, the track is always getting worked on, the signal and MOW guys from what I can tell) have nice new trucks, but they absolutely do not give a rats backside about craft employees.
The most important change with UP was that they didn't cut jobs every time someone farted. Security goes a long way toward job satisfaction. I never felt that SP took better care of us (at least we in engineering), just that the management structure allowed us to interact more with higher ups if we needed to. I can't think of an industry in which the glass house gives a rat's ass about the rank and file. As I stated, I didn't need to be patted on the head, I just needed a steady paycheck and the material I needed to do my job, and UP always gave me that. I am actually still treated well by local management, who give me no grief about being on the property, and continue to allow me to enjoy some of the perks I had when still working. Thanks for checking it out!
@@MarkClayMcGowan well in the operating crafts we got furloughed a lot. I was furloughed from Nov 08 to Jul 10. My biggest beef with UP was they were always trying to fire us for the tiniest thing. I knew some great rails that got fired because of something some other guy did. I’ve heard from people in different parts of the UP system that our service unit was particularly adversarial. The old head UP guys said things were a lot different before the MoPac merger. Keep the content coming, it’s a lot of fun to watch. It’s great to see the engineer side of things.
Remember SP really going downhill financially when the chemical tank cars tipped over in the Sacramento River near Dunsmuir ca, ......It was on the news non stop for Months ......good information.....thanks for sharing
You read all the time where Union Pacific is laying off and then on the other hand just the opposite. I feel your despair in never knowing if you have a steady job. Retirement has done you well. I hope you keep doing the videos. They are great entertainment.
thanks mark brings back memories of days when i tried for a job at the sp diesel ramp in roseville and the 710 just came out. i used to go there and learn fun things but didnt get the job.did you know about hobo shoestring?
Excellent coverage of the merger. I hired out in 1970 with the SP and lived thru the merger. The merger with the Santa Fe would have been much better choice. The merger with the UP has been disastrous towards the morale of the workers. I finally retired 2 years ago and dont miss the Yellow Peril at all. I remember Day 1 anything that was had the SP logo was thrown out..
I don't know what you did, but prior to all the woke crap UP (and all the roads) is now doing, the workers on the ground really had no issues with UP. I know it was different for train crews though.
I was an engineer on the old San Joaquin Divison. The UP changed all of the seniority districts. Made Bakersfield the home terminal instead of Los Angeles. Gave the Coast district to the Bakersfield hub.
I was a San Joaquin Division man as well. When UP took over they created the California Division, which was much better for us as it gave everyone more chances to go elsewhere if they wanted to, and also gave men many more options if they were bumped.
I remember that they were on marijuana right? Conrail train failed to obey signal stopped on wrong track .Amtrak hit them goin a good speed while freight was at a dead stop. Thank you for your service
Unfortunately, Norfolk Southern is one of those micro management companies. The people under them have to keep their noses clean and keep their sanity. I have not met a friendly signal maintainer yet in Ohio. The ones on the SP back in the day were true friendly people. I met one back in 90's who went to work for Metrolink(SCAX) and is still employed with them.
I feel like a D&RGW/SP merger video is due. D&RGW had a interesting fast freight policy that mostly died with them buying SP. that style is much more competitive with trucks. the only company left doing something like it is the FEC.
That wasn't a merger. D&RGW bought SP outright. Things at SP changed very little, at least in the signal department. I had only been at SP nine years when that happened, and really had no thoughts on it other than hoping it would stabilize jobs and budgets. It did not. I was bumped and had jobs cut more in the DRGW years than before them. Stay tuned for my video detailing my career at SP/UP. Thanks for checking it out
i was a UP switchman via the 1995 chicago and northwestern merger and was present for the UP/SP merger... the MAIN thing i remember about that was the meltdown at englewood hump yard... englewood yard was ran kind of like a slipshod, "cross your fingers and hope this works" type operation from what i read... but the SP officials made it work... the SP did some weird things to keep englewood yard from getting constipated (like sending excess overflow cars to other yards down the pike till englewood loosened up) the UP came in and was like "WTF is this SH*t"... UP told SP to switch ALL cars here (in englewood)... SP bosses warned the UP bigwigs but UP insisted... that yard was good for humping 2400 cars daily any more than that and it gets locked up and trouble happens... well that's just what happened, trouble... englewood got locked up and it first spread across the ENTIRE UP system (i would show up for work at our yard in milwaukee and the yard was GRIDLOCKED... we would wait for HOURS to get a switchlist, then switch 3 cars and then back to the yard office and wait and wait and wait for another switchlist... that NEVER came)... then it spread across the WHOLE U.S. rail network... power plants were super low on coal, intermodal trains not moving... reports were surfacing about literally canceling christmas because of the gridlock at the ports and fears of retailers not getting their christmas stock... we had our yard in sheboygan, wi where the yard foreman couldn't even get a work order to switch the customers... he had to call each customer on the phone and ask them what cars they wanted pulled and spotted and actually got out in the yard and walk the tracks to find the cars and give the customers a switch... now that dude should have won employee of the year... it got so bad that TRAINS magazine all but rescinded their GLOWING big sloppy wet kiss of a double issue devoted entirely to the UP just a year earlier, the november 1995 issue (the cover read UNION PACIFIC -SUPER RAILROAD)... TRAINS magazine ripped into UP for their mishandling of the SP merger... so yea while we look now at the merger and it looks like a success, it CERTAINLY wasn't a success right away
The story of the Southern Pacific is honestly very sad. They were going through hard times and then when the SPSF merger failed, it brought them further downhill. Then the wreck on Cajon Pass happened at Duffy St on Cajon Pass in 1989 and that brought them further into a downward spiral.
Union Pacific won't let the SP 4449 Steam Locomotive run on the Union Pacific Main line Union Pacific Doesn't use the Ex DRGW Tennessee Pass line and They also don't use the DRGW from Salt Lake City Utah to Denver Colorado Mark I love ❤️ Your Opinion about the UP SP Merger 💯💯💯💯💯💥💥💥💥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Do you think we'll eventually have "mega merger" ? Resulting in a true coast-coast railroad? Here (Baton Rouge La.) my favorite railroad is Kansas City Southern. It's the smallest class one railroad, I keep waiting for it to get swallowed up by one of the "big fish" What do you think of the UP. heritage locomotives?
If the left get their way I believe railroads will, at some point, be nationalized. As for a coast to coast merger, there would have to be two of them. One up north (CSX/BNSF) and one down south (UP/NS) to avoid one monopoly. I didn't used to think it was a possibility but anymore, who knows? I think the heritage locomotives look cool. I got to ride in the WP one on an Operation Redblock special.
Financially something had to happen. Either someone was going to buy the entire SP or it was going to be broken up and sold off piecemeal. They simply did not have the resources to survive much longer. So in that respect the UP coming along was a good thing. As for how it worked out for people, well I guess everyone's mileage varied. My father was in TE&Y in Northern California and they were thrown into chaos. It took a good 5 years for things to return seniority wise where they had been before the merger, but by then a lot of peoples lives had long been thrown into chaos. The money was not the issue, just how they treated/managed their people and how lots of people with decades of service in were now chasing jobs to places they had never worked before. Fast forward to today and the former SP is in better shape than it had been for generations. The UP certainly puts their money where their mouth is. And they still make money hand over fist. Most of the people left on the UP now are hires from after the merger and so they have never known it to be anything other than what the UP has made things. Now that PSR is another story...
UP definitely made things easier for we on this end and this department. Most of the upper management in signal ended up being SP guys for the first few years.
Not in railroad though having been through a merger myself a lot of your experience no different then mine. I feel your pain. As well as a lot of what Mark mentioned in this video. It is damn if you do or don't. Sadly big fish always eats the little fish in a merger.
I work for the BNSF up in WA and I tell you what, we operate similar to the UP and as far as safety goes, it the same, now as for the merger between the BN and SF, lots of the old head BN guys said they didn't like it and they didn't care for the SF nor Krebs.
Mr. Krebs was an SP guy who dragged Rollin Bredenburg, et all. with him to the upper echelon of Santa Fe during the ATSF/SP merger days, when the Scmidts guy was shown the door for his shinnegans with debentures and management faux pas jibberish.
Working for SP must have been very cool I am a lifelong ARIZONAN so dirty smoking TUNNEL units & bay window cabooses & I was hooked I modeled SP N scale I'm a big fan. UP isnt a favorite of mine killed COOLEST Railroads in 80s & 90s .my question is if you know where I can find film or video on former Rock island(SSW ) GOLDEN WEST LINE ? I'm interested in tucumcari to Amarillo route being with SP since 1979 I thought you might know
You should check out the video I did on the N scale layout in a caboose! It's in the "other stuff" playlist. I'm afraid I don't know about info on those lines. Golden West is a good place to start. You might also check Omni Publications in Palmdale, Ca. Thanks for checking it out!
When you were cutoff from sp did you consider the Santa fe or up or other railroads? Also I think you forgot but let's talk on another video talk about the railroad wife.
Rail mergers have destroyed more trackage and obliterated more railroad heritage in this nation than any economic decline during any period has. They shed many good routes to short lines and abandon segments that still had industries desiring rail service. They shut out lots of businesses that wanted rail service; most of those were small businesses. I was a conductor from 2004-2014. In 2014 I was inured and retired early but it has not gotten any better since then. PSR has made things even worse; safety has suffered significantly. There should be more class ones not the limited handful there are today. KCS was the most recent one to fall to CP. Not sure how that will play out over the next few years but maybe CP will not be as stupid as US owned class ones.
SP and SF shed ALL unprofitable branches. Unless the shipper is huge, just having one or two shippers desiring service is rarely worth the costs involved in keeping a branch open. Short lines have far fewer expenses and can afford to operate on smaller margins, thus the sale of the San Joaquin Valley branches to SJVRR, who continue to operate them profitably. Many of the lines that closed in mergers were parallel routes no longer needed. Had railroads not engaged in these mergers, many would have failed outright with the loss of ALL jobs. As an SP employee of 17 years, I can guarantee they would not have survived, which would have been far worse than the outcome of the UP merger. KCS was a Rust Belt railroad and was on the ropes as well. The CP merger opened up a lot of new business for both roads, which is better than the KCS failing and their employees hoping someone would pick up the pieces. Every industry has to evolve or die. It has always been that way, and always will be. Which one did you work for?
Odd how they blocked the Santa Fe/SP merger because it would create a monopoly in the area but approved the UP/SP merger which did exactly the same thing.
The Railroad Industry sounds a lot like the Construction Industry- one big roller coaster! If you can't have a secure future with a Class I Railroad, there is not much hope anywhere. Hopefully you have a decent retirement after 40 years on and off?
It's a bizarre twist of railroad fate. Union Pacific started out as not much more than an oversized Midwest granger road. Southern Pacific on the other hand was an empire. So much so it was fictionalized in the novel The Octopus. Yet all these years later it is Uncle Pete that has survived. What would the Big Four say if they could see this?
Interesting take, but growing up in CA I kind of get that impression as well. (even though it was the Central Pacific in the beginning) Somehow even the big boy didn't seem as impressive as a big cab forward tunnel loco, or the mighty rotary plow.
Yes. CP was an established line when UP was still a paper corporation. Considering the nefarious beginnings of UP, I'm surprised they got things steaightened out and started making money.
@@MarkClayMcGowan when we think about the recent insurrection on capital hill, it was nothing in terms of getting something done. Credit Mobilier, now that was how to do it. I mean they literally walked around the Senate floor with stacks of Union Pacific common stock! And poor Theodore Judah tried to lobby the honest way and died of malaria caught crossing in Panama on his way to the east coast. I guess it wasn't in vain, his death cemented the need for the Pacific railroad.
The whole mess started when the BN merger was approved. The Milwaukee Road was a major interchanger with the SP in the Pacific Northwest. Somehow the Milwaukee was promised things to not object to the proposed merger. Once that merger happened all agreements made with all roads including the SP were broken. The courts didn t care. There was a recession going on at the time. The ROCK Island went down and collapsed. The Western Pacific Railroad suffered along with Western Railroads in general...EXCEPT for the BN. Eventually the SANTA FE and THE S P.... but the SP was not allowed to merge with the SANTA FE. So the SP was set adrift without the assets that had been there in the past....those were in the posession of the Santa Fe. UP was far enough away from the BN to fend for itself. The SP and DRGW were effectively thrown into each others arms. But that was not enough to stop the money hemmoraging. BNSF merger came along...again...the court didn t care. SO ...ultimately..all the assets that the SP once had were ultimately turned against them. That money was in the hands of SP s competition. Union Pacific wanted the railroad after all.....the rest is history.
The DRGW merger may have been no picnic, but remember when Kansas City Southern Industries (the then-parent of KCS) expressed interest in acquiring the financially troubled Espee on the heels of the SPSF merger failing to gain regulatory approval? Be glad that KCS wasn't able to grab SP on the cheap. KCSI at the time still owned the lucrative non-rail entities _Stillwell Financial, Janus Mutual Funds_ and _DST._ The KCS _railroad_ wasn't even the parent company's 2nd priority. When you talked in the video about how Union Pacific wasn't afraid to spend money to make money... KCS was the polar opposite. They penny-pinched the heck out of *everything* during that time. Things improved a bit once the parent company spun-off all of its non-rail subsidiaries and became just a railroad, but that potential Frankenstein SP/KCS merger would have been far more painful than anything Uncle Pete ever did to the former Espee. Cheers
SP seemed to forget they were competing with other railroads and transportation businesses. I also believe they were involved in too many non railroad businesses and waited too long to get rid of them. I don't think they updated their business model much after 1970 and management was, in my opinion, spoiled. You had to murder someone to get fired and then it had better be someone important and their sales department was a joke. UP had no qualms with booting managers who didn't get their job done. They ran a much tighter ship
Well remember all the expensive accidents they had. Runaway on Cajon, derailment at Ventura under the 101 freeway, Sacramento River chemical spill just to name a few that happened in 1989, 1990 & 91...
I think the merger was easier in the mataince dept. Signal, Track, and B&B than in the TE&Y. In the Operating Dept. ( After I transferredin 98 ) We're treated like children. They scrutinized every little thing we did...Sooo nitpick ing about the dumbest things. BTW it's not like that now because we have no managers due to the 2020 plan🤣Remember the craft that always suffered the most in railroading was the railroad clerk! Damn Computers!
UP sounds like a better run company than SP. These mergers are never easy for working folks. At least you didn't work in the corporate office where only one is needed. Corporate offices are the first to arrive at the scene of a merger. Best of luck.
Much better run company! Most worker bees spent so much time complaining about how the 2020 plan made their jobs more a pain, they never realized that 2,000 glass house jobs were lost before it trickled down to us. Thanks for checking it out!
If you were hired in 1979 then you must be a baby boomer. Baby boomers were infants and toddlers when Steam Trains ended their active services in the 1950’s and early 1960’s.
That is why I call Boomers the Pennsylvania Railroad F9 Locomotives. I call F9 Locomotives the Boomer locomotives. Because there are a series of diesel locomotives built between 1946 and 1964.
As a railfan, you shouldn't base your opinion of UP on the word of a few trainmen. As a 40 year (1979-2019) signal employee, UP was a MUCH more stable work environment than SP ever was. UP expected you to do your job, no matter who you were. SP was loaded with "fairhaired boys" who were horrible employees. Many didn't make it at UP, but that was their fault. Trainmen are really the only ones you'll hear complaining about the difference because UP treated them the same as everyone else, which was something they weren't used to.
THIS WAS ONE MERGER THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPENED!IT IS BAD ENOUGH THAT THE UP TOOK THE WESTERN PACIFIC, THE DENVER ,AND RIO GRANDE WESTERN!NOW YOU MUST REMEMBER THAT ONCE THE MERGER WENT THROUGH, A LOT OF RAILROAD WORKERS LOST THEIR JOBS! AND EVERY TIME THE SURFACE TRANSPORTATION BOARD APPROVES A MERGER, MANY WORKERS LOSE THEIR JOBS. IT IS A KNOWN FACT!THEY MERGE,AND THE WORKERS LOSE! JUST LOOK AT THE DISASTER THAT HUNTER HARRISON BROUGHT TO CSX! THESE MERGETS HAS CAUSED MANY LINES TO VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR!, NOT TO MENTION THE MESS AT NBNSF!
Without it, SP would never have survived. They were $4 billion in debt with a negative operating ratio. Also, mergers became common in every major industry during that era. It was economically inevitable. Airlines, aviation, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, oil. All went through them. The only jobs lost in the early years of SP/UP were management. I don't recall operating losing jobs, but I know engineering actually went through a hiring binge and many major upgrade projects were undertaken that would never have happened under SP. WP was in the same boat.
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
One of the funnies that came out of the failed merger of the SP and Santa Fe was when they painted their locos with the "SPSF" logo, it produced the saying " Shouldn't Paint So Fast" :)
I remember thinking they may have jumped the gun!
Never got to see SP kodachrome too much living on AT&SF peavine line saw lots of SF kodachrome .I think they painted lost more than sp
@@MarkClayMcGowan No one in a million years thought it would be rejected.
@@arizonalurps5150 It spread through the valley pretty much taking over everything, I remember the day the usual "Cotton Belt" gp9 assigned to the Visalia Electric (a wholly owned SP road from Goshen jct. to Exeter) went away and in its place was a freshly painted SP Kodachrome gp9. Even a few weeks ago I saw a faded Kodachrome unit on the dead line in Roseville.
Your thoughts and comments are interesting and mostly right on. I started with SP as a clerk at the headquarters office building in early 1966. My career was: messenger-clerk, accounting clerk, Passenger Reservation clerk --> merged into "freight car tracking" with job title of Traffic Service Clerk, clerk on the staff of the "central" Traffic Manager, Passenger Sales Representative (I'm the last one still living)*, freight salesman (SF, Marysville, Chico), Chief Clerk district sales, Sacramento, Asst to Regional Sales Manager, Sacramento, Asst. Mgr Commerce (San Francisco), Group Manager-Tarriffs (Tariff Publishing Manger for SP/SSW). I took a "buyout" in the fall of 1987 after 21-1/2 years with SP. *Note: I was also one of the last to "work up" through the ranks, subsequently new "exempt" employees were hired as college graduates.
The roots of the "troubles" for SP started years before you were even hired. Under government regulation, the railroad's return on investment was less than "other" businesses. For years, SP minimized investment in the railroad (see "Sprint" a telephone company formed by SP and eventually sold to others, purchase of TICOR, a title insurance company, etc.). In December 1983, a merger between SP and ATSF began. The non-transportation assets were immediately combined (major asset, SP Land Company that owned all the "land grants" dating back to the 1860s and other non-operating lands owned by the company). This essentially stripped the SP railroad from assets long used to support the operations when times were tough. (The Land company was combined with a similar ATSF land operation, and spun off. It changed its name to something that I've forgotten but was operating independently as a land developer, last I knew.)
With the SP in a "voting trust", we were given a "caretaker" management (Mr. D.K.McNear was Chairman, who was a long time employee SP; I recall that a long-time SP lawyer was named president of SP). Middle management was told "we must live within our means as we have no sources of outside capital during the consideration of the merger by the ICC.
Meanwhile after the previous management of the sales & marketing ("traffic department") retired, an outside (who previously managed a cannery) was hired as VP, and a young man, Bruce Howe, was hired as system sales manager (I forget his exact title). The idea was made to "maximize" revenue by encouraging shippers to request SP-SSW routing (even on traffic originating in Oregon and Northern California -- even though that traffic was handled more quickly via Ogden UT). There was some success to the sales efforts, but the "T&L lines (SP/SSW east of El Paso) got hammered with more traffic than they could efficiently handle (again, while the "Pacific Lines" where being starved of capital, the T&L lines had it even worse (e.g. much less CTC territory, shorter passing tracks/sidings, and so on).
For years, SP complained about "government regulation" -- in 1980, they got their "wish" (but be careful what you wish for). the "Staggers Rail Act of 1980" significantly reduced regulation (and resulted in the end of the ICC by 1988), it turned out that SP was NOT the "low cost producer" ... and UP (in particular) having taken over Western Pacific by that time, was able to offer contract rates that took significant traffic from SP lines in Northern California (and probably elsewhere, too).
Meanwhile, the UP-RI merger case (which started in 1962) ended with 'no deal." But, the failing Rock Island (which connected with SP at Tucumcari, NM) ended up being broken up. SSW (for technical reasons) purchased the RI's KC-Tucumcari line. (This gave SP/SSW a 300 mile shorter route from Los Angeles to KC/St Louis gateways, saving money) but the "price" $57 million to the estate of the bankrupt RI, plus tens of millions more to restore usable track put further strain on SP's finances. It was smart to buy RI, but the $$ to fix it was a big negative. (Blame the regulators for spending decades not making reasonable decisions about the RI Line.)
The TRUCKS! The 1988 Staggers Act also deregulated truck freight lines. In short order, most long-distance truckers became non-union and made other operational changes. The economics of running triple-trailer rigs (legal in Oregon and Nevada (and other places) actually made the cost per ton-mile CHEAPER than the basic ton-mile operating cost of the railroads. (Finally, the rail operating unions understood that 2-man crews on through freights made good sense, since there would be NO jobs with the economics of trucking about to take everything away from the rails. We also (soon enough) got rid of cabooses, an anachronism since Conductors had not been doing paperwork with waybills, etc. for some years since the billing systems had been computerized. The economics of truck v. rail was not something that "sales department" could beat. (If Walmart offers a product for 20 or 30% less than another store, all else being reasonably equal, you'll shop at Walmart, not Whole Foods!)
These comments are my own opinions and analysis. I "took a buyout" from SP in the fall of 1987, and haven't looked back (much). I didn't have to move to Chicago (had the ATSF merger gone through), I didn't have to move to Denver or Omaha (though I had friends that did). And I did discover "life after SP." As for the managers and supervisors I had over the years, some were good, some were not so good, most had the best interests of the company in mind (most of the time) and this is similar to the situations at the other places I worked after leaving SP.
Just want to you know that what the railroad pumped into SPCC, they sold for almost a billion dollars to GTE. That billion dollars was an input into the railroad coffers. My father was an Executive Officer at one market when you were there. He was one of the developers and conceivers of SPCC/SPRINT through their microwave system. He was the Assistant General Superintendent of Communications- System. He and the General Superintendent of Communications System essentially "ran" the whole communications department (9th floor) for the railroad. You talked on it he had either bought it or requisitioned it for the railroad. Odds are you were talking over lines that were created with the concept of his department. Their microwave system at that time was the largest privately owned microwave system in the world. Do you ever remember seeing a microwave tower on top of One Market? The railroad developed The microwave system because telephone poles along right away where the least effective way for communication. Everything had to be communicated through those towers. CTC, TOPs computers everything.At one time there were over 220 microwave sites owned by the railroad. It was just as easy for them to split this off and make the SPCC. A early 1970s? ruling by the FCC against AT&T allowed this and SPRINT was able to be formed. . Not every department with the railroad was sucking the money from the railroad. This was a huge moneymaker for the railroad at the time of its sale..
My father started out as a grunt/ditch digger in the communications department. He was promoted to lineman climbing poles, then to Foreman of the division in Sacramento. From there they gave him the opportunity and the railroad put him through college for 3 and 1/2 years at what now is UTEP in Texas. Offered him a college education. After his college education they paid for he was promoted through the ranks to the number two position eventually in the railroad for that communications department. He too was a ground up person. His 3 and 1/2 years of college all he did was school and SP paid his monthly salary. The railroad didn't a lot of amazing things for a lot of people and their educations.
I can tell that from the point of view of the shipper (family had a couple packing houses around Tulare, well southern Fresno, the ranches were around Tulare) the SP was absolutely detested. My grandfather loved the Santa Fe on every level. That is until the infamous SPSF failed merger. We had one packing facility near Kingsburg on the SP, another in Reedly on the Santa Fe secondary From Calwa to Corcoran via Visalia.
The SP was great at targeting their feet!
Thanks for checking it out!
Mark I've been a UP conductor since 2004 and I can say without a doubt the tracks right now in 2023 have never been in better shape. I work Roseville to Bakersfield on the RT01 board. Thankyou for the video and all your hard work.
Your story very much mirrors my time on the Delaware and Hudson. I hired out in 1969 as a yard clerk and things were pretty good, except we were being run by DERECO, an N&W subsidiary, which also owned the EL. I eventually started train dispatching in 1974 and worked as a dispatcher until I retired on December 16, 2019. In the mid 70s, things started to go downhill. Just as you said, track and signal gangs were cut and maintenance was spotty at best. Of course the track took the hit. After Conrail came into existence in 1976, the D&H doubled in size to become the "competitor" of Conrail. Of course there was no way we could compete with the eastern giant. Just as with the DRGW, Guilford Transportation bought the D&H in 1984 and we all thought that was our savior. But all they did was use the D&H to sell off any real estate they could and line their pockets. It was also obvious they were out to bust the unions, which led to the big BMWE strike in 1986 which put me out of work for about 3 months, and after further union busting measures, Guilford put the D&H into bankruptcy. We were operated under directed service by the NYSW railroad with financing from CSX. CP finally bought the D&H in 1991, and at the time things looked up. Track was upgraded to 50 mph and we ran trains like we hadn't since the 60s. But again CP was up against Conrail and Conrail stole a lot of the business we had. Eventually CP sold the south end of the railroad to the Norfolk Southern, leaving only the north end between Albany and Montreal under the D&H name. It was a rocky road for most of my 50 years, but luckily I was never furloughed, only time I lost was during the big Guilford strike! Retirement is GREAT!!
Since I retired I got hit with the lockdowns, had reconstructive shoulder surgery and almost died of covid and it still beats working!
Thanks for checking it out!
Sorry I didn't reply sooner but the Rona knocked me down!
@F. Friedrich Kling Hauss I'm just glad I'm retired!
the 70s were definitely a DARK time for the railroads... especially the eastern roads
Sorry for the late response, but PSR is what's preventing me from ever working for the railroad. Job security is basically non-existent now in that industry thanks to PSR.
Thanks for doing this video. I was born in 1980 and grew up in Burbank along the 2 lines there(Saugus & Coast) and was always a huge SP fan. The engineers brought me inside the locomotives several times and were always so friendly. The SP definitely ran a different ship. Once UP took over it didn't take long for SP's identity to get stripped and now I understand why! At the end of the day though, one company survived with one mindset and the other faltered with another. Maybe it was SP's own doing.
Southern Pacific is one of my favorite railroad companies. My other favorite is the Pennsylvania Railroad
I really enjoyed working there despite the stress of the unknown!
@William W. Campbell-Shepherd IX I love the history of all roads. I'm reading two right now. The SOO Line and the Rayonier, which was a logging shortline in Washington. I have a ton I've either read or will at some point!
Those two lines were some of my favorites for a good long while! Till recently I shifted my interests into late southern pacific and railroading in the 70s And 80s.
Coastline definitely had a slower transition to UP Powerwise at least, Patched SD40M-2s as helpers until 2009ish, then occasionally patched SP ac44s instead of the SD60M's and SD9043MACs. Palmer was the last SP Engineer out of the SLO crew base, his last run was 1/4/19.
Excellent video!!! Straight forward and in easy layman terms about UP taking over the ESpee. I kinda noticed that like you said in the video that the UP was a prick of a company about SP name. I remember seeing all the track switches that had the SP numbers were renumbered as well as all locomotives and such as you mentioned...sad none the less, I loved the Espee railroad back in the 1970's as a railroad fan. The crews back then seemed very relaxed and hard working at the same time....very good information thanks for posting
Although I grew up in Dayton, Ohio, I still remember seeing a few ex-SP SD40M-2s and Tunnel Motors still wearing their original paint on the Indiana and Ohio Railway (IORY) that ran on trackage rights along the NS Dayton District. However, I lived in El Paso, Texas from 2011-2014 and saw a plethora of patched and unpatched ex-SP units on dozens of UP trains along the Sunset Route. Miraculously, some of the old SP-era searchlight signals and switch stands along the line were still in use until they were replaced in 2012!
We were still using searchlights on the Fresno and Mojave subs until the PTC/microprocessor systems were completed in 2015.
Thanks for checking it out!
Thanks Mark, great video. I always enjoy your insight into the inner workings of things.
Thank you!
Thank You for your wisdom! As a former long haul driver. I remember the failed SP SF merger painted locomotives. Codachrome schemes. SF were the blue & yellow and SP red & yellow. I used to run from Wisconsin to California and back.
Hauling LTL freight all over the LA & San Joaquin valley. Thank You much, Your insight actually teaches myself the big picture of what I used to see on a regular basis. I hauled a lot of transformers to the tops of the mountains near Tehachepi. I Love the region. I gave up the long haul stint back in 1992. But still remember watching the SP uncouple helpers at the top of the summit at Tehachepi.
I love your channel and thoroughly enjoy your content! Have a good day Mark! Hope all is well,.... Ken,...
The colors were identical, only the letters were different. SP or SF. However prior to this the Santa Fe was a very distinctive blue and yellow.
Repainting the SP rolling stock must have been quite a job. I remember when the NP, GN, Burlington & SP&S merged to form the BN in 1970, things got painted in a hurry.
Quite a contrast with the BNSF merger, isn't it? There are STILL green engines running around up here in MN once in a while, though they're getting pretty rare now
Mark I hear where you’re coming from I hired out in December 19 85 at McDonald Douglas in Long Beach after getting out of the Air Force and we went through the same thing with the Boeing merger and I believe 1996 and guess what the Long Beach facility & the Aircraft that we manufactured we are discontinued by the Boeing Co. in favor of their seven series of aircraft the boys 717 would’ve been a good seller to this day but because it was designed by Douglas and not boring they canceled that and I’ll look at how many small regional jets are being manufactured by foreign companies but that’s just my opinion as well
I knew some people in the So. Cal aviation industry back in the 80s. Most at Lockheed. Some really got hosed in mergers.
Remy Lopez Funny I came across you’re reply. My mom worked at Certified Alloy Products across the street on the west side of Cherry Ave. I forget the year, But a DC-10 crashed on takeoff I believe out of Chicago. Rumor had it , well, no rumor, one of the engines fell off. My mom worked on certifications of the alloys. At the time she’d come home share work happenings with my dad. She kept using the term certs. As far as I was concerned it could have stood for “two, two, two mints in one - Certs.” And, that is when I found out everyone in her company, especially her department were sweating bullies thinking an engine mounting bolt failed, and perhaps it wasn’t the right metallurgy. So, they were rechecking their records, and such. It turned out the NTSB ruled it was maintenance procedures to remove & replace or swap the engine. Apparently, they used a different Hyster, or cradle or something that eliminated certain steps, which ultimately put too much stress on the bolts. Maybe didn’t shim it properly. I forget the details. But, I remember it involved the procedure that I mentioned. Small world. ✌️🤙
Think of the good names that went to Boeing to die... North American, MD, and many more...
I grew up next to the SP tracks in the San Joaquin valley for the first 16 yrs of my life.Really liked trains and would watch the switch engine for hrs.These videos are very interesting especially the ones down south in the Mojave Desert.Thanks.
My pleasure! Stay tuned, more to come!
I hated when UP took over MOPAC then when UP took over SP I missed seeing the gray & red nose locomotives seeing them in SouthEast Missouri
It was quite a change for us as well. I still see SP power on work trains and short lines with just the number covered.
@@MarkClayMcGowan Hard to see that happen I know
Since my last name is Cotton, I miss seeing the occasional grey and red nose Cotton Belt units. (with SSW on the nose)
@@expletivedeleted7853 down in South East Missouri I use to see old Cotton Belt locomotives with SP locomotives
You know I read Southern Pacific talked with the Seaboard Coast Line of a possible merger in 1977. But it also never went through. If it had happened Southern Pacific would turned into a true transcontinental railroad.
Interesting hearing the opinions from an “insider”...
As always, you provide great insight.
Thanks for this video and, more importantly, Thanks For Your Entire Channel !!
My pleasure and thanks for checking it out!
Clay, I think you might like "Southern Pacific's Blue Streak Merchandise" book by Fred Frailey. It was published 20+ years ago, but is available (as a used book) on Amazon and eBay -- or you might get it from a library. It gives a very real look at behind the scenes operations.
I sure do miss the small Fleet of EX Southern Pacific sd45 that my local railroad, the Buffalo and Pittsburgh used to have. Love to hear those 20 cylinder engines.
The Trona Railroad uses old SP locomotives. I'm putting a piece together on the Trona. If any of their power are SD45s I'll be sure to shoot them operating!
@@MarkClayMcGowan keep up the good work. I have quite a few pictures of B&P number 454 on railpictures.net, from what I've read it was actually a ssw/Cotton Belt unit that unfortunately has been scrapped.
Sadly yes those Special Agents or Railroad Police Officers with SP didn't fair well in the merger.
I don't know how it was everywhere but they added a couple in this area.
@@MarkClayMcGowan I don't believe they were forced out. Whatever package was offered to them I assume led them to decide which way they wanted to go. I think those within their same rank kept that rank. They weren't no longer promised raises either. I don't believe either dipped into their railroad retirements till aged out. Guess that was one good thing. They didn't lose that! Most important I guess!
As for the SPSF, when they started repainting locos it seems like all the Santa Fe sales people started leaving. It was very frustrating because you could always pick up a phone and call your rep at Santa Fe and they would solve any issue right away. SP never had any sales people or account reps as best one could tell. As the merger progressed the Santa Fe guys all lest. Then the merger was rejected, but before anyone could feel good, the rumors started getting louder and louder about both roads selling or abandoning most of the East Side lines.
My Dad was a dispatcher for SP back in the 60's and 70's. I recall his grousing about "bumping" and "seniority" and I know he was laid off in the late 50's. After my parents divorced I logged probably 10,000 miles on trips from the Oklahoma panhandle to Dunsmuir CA or Ogden UT for summer visits. I rode Rock island to Tucumcari, SP through El Paso, Tucson, Yuma, and to LA. Not streamliners either.
Old clunky milk trains. Loved every minute of it. He ended up, I think, as Asst. Supt. Trans. before retirement. After high school I worked as a relief agent for the C.R.I. & P in the Texas and Okla. panhandle, 69-70. Saw the writing on the wall, went to college. Still fond of SP and the Rock (bad as it was.)
Knowing the passenger service on the late 70's on the Golden State route, you may appreciate (or not) lyrics to the The 12 Days of Christmas.
Partial:
On the fifth day of Christmas
John Volpe gave to me
Five Golden States!
Four baggage dorms, three troop sleepers, two automats,
and a broken down Rock Island RDC
I have a video of Number 39 (I think) arriving in Tucson. That was the remnant of The Golden State Limited.
Having been through a merger myself much of what you mentioned sound very familiar! Big fish eating little fish! LOL!
That's about the size of it!
A friend of mine worked MOW for the SP in the Bay Area, he said one of the most striking changes was all the new white vehicles they received almost immediately. I hired out ten years after the merger, and I was trained by a lot of old head SP engineers. The vibe I got from them was, yeah the SP was always broke, and their equipment was ready for the scrap heap, but they took good care of their employees. UP has up to date (poorly maintained) locomotives, the track is always getting worked on, the signal and MOW guys from what I can tell) have nice new trucks, but they absolutely do not give a rats backside about craft employees.
The most important change with UP was that they didn't cut jobs every time someone farted. Security goes a long way toward job satisfaction. I never felt that SP took better care of us (at least we in engineering), just that the management structure allowed us to interact more with higher ups if we needed to. I can't think of an industry in which the glass house gives a rat's ass about the rank and file. As I stated, I didn't need to be patted on the head, I just needed a steady paycheck and the material I needed to do my job, and UP always gave me that. I am actually still treated well by local management, who give me no grief about being on the property, and continue to allow me to enjoy some of the perks I had when still working. Thanks for checking it out!
@@MarkClayMcGowan well in the operating crafts we got furloughed a lot. I was furloughed from Nov 08 to Jul 10.
My biggest beef with UP was they were always trying to fire us for the tiniest thing. I knew some great rails that got fired because of something some other guy did. I’ve heard from people in different parts of the UP system that our service unit was particularly adversarial. The old head UP guys said things were a lot different before the MoPac merger.
Keep the content coming, it’s a lot of fun to watch. It’s great to see the engineer side of things.
Remember SP really going downhill financially when the chemical tank cars tipped over in the Sacramento River near Dunsmuir ca, ......It was on the news non stop for Months ......good information.....thanks for sharing
Been to the spill site at the Cantara Loop. The bridge they have there now has to be one of the beefiest RR bridges around.
You read all the time where Union Pacific is laying off and then on the other hand just the opposite. I feel your despair in never knowing if you have a steady job. Retirement has done you well. I hope you keep doing the videos. They are great entertainment.
thanks mark brings back memories of days when i tried for a job at the sp diesel ramp in roseville and the 710 just came out. i used to go there and learn fun things but didnt get the job.did you know about hobo shoestring?
Yes I did. I posted a short about it when I heard.
@@MarkClayMcGowan i will look for it.
So interesting thank you
Excellent coverage of the merger. I hired out in 1970 with the SP and lived thru the merger. The merger with the Santa Fe would have been much better choice. The merger with the UP has been disastrous towards the morale of the workers. I finally retired 2 years ago and dont miss the Yellow Peril at all.
I remember Day 1 anything that was had the SP logo was thrown out..
I don't know what you did, but prior to all the woke crap UP (and all the roads) is now doing, the workers on the ground really had no issues with UP. I know it was different for train crews though.
I was an engineer on the old San Joaquin Divison. The UP changed all of the seniority districts. Made Bakersfield the home terminal instead of Los Angeles. Gave the Coast district to the Bakersfield hub.
I was a San Joaquin Division man as well. When UP took over they created the California Division, which was much better for us as it gave everyone more chances to go elsewhere if they wanted to, and also gave men many more options if they were bumped.
Back in Jan. 1987. A Amtrac ran into 3 Conrail locos in Chase Maryland. My engine few was the first ones there. Killed 16.
I remember that they were on marijuana right? Conrail train failed to obey signal stopped on wrong track .Amtrak hit them goin a good speed while freight was at a dead stop. Thank you for your service
UP had a big micro management system. It would of stressed me out.
Most of my UP managers weren't that way until the 2020 plan began developing.
Unfortunately, Norfolk Southern is one of those micro management companies. The people under them have to keep their noses clean and keep their sanity. I have not met a friendly signal maintainer yet in Ohio. The ones on the SP back in the day were true friendly people. I met one back in 90's who went to work for Metrolink(SCAX) and is still employed with them.
@@epacm50 I live near LA didn't know SCAX owned trackage until recently, i thought they were only rolling stock
I feel like a D&RGW/SP merger video is due. D&RGW had a interesting fast freight policy that mostly died with them buying SP. that style is much more competitive with trucks. the only company left doing something like it is the FEC.
That wasn't a merger. D&RGW bought SP outright. Things at SP changed very little, at least in the signal department. I had only been at SP nine years when that happened, and really had no thoughts on it other than hoping it would stabilize jobs and budgets. It did not. I was bumped and had jobs cut more in the DRGW years than before them. Stay tuned for my video detailing my career at SP/UP.
Thanks for checking it out
i was a UP switchman via the 1995 chicago and northwestern merger and was present for the UP/SP merger... the MAIN thing i remember about that was the meltdown at englewood hump yard... englewood yard was ran kind of like a slipshod, "cross your fingers and hope this works" type operation from what i read... but the SP officials made it work... the SP did some weird things to keep englewood yard from getting constipated (like sending excess overflow cars to other yards down the pike till englewood loosened up) the UP came in and was like "WTF is this SH*t"... UP told SP to switch ALL cars here (in englewood)... SP bosses warned the UP bigwigs but UP insisted... that yard was good for humping 2400 cars daily any more than that and it gets locked up and trouble happens... well that's just what happened, trouble... englewood got locked up and it first spread across the ENTIRE UP system (i would show up for work at our yard in milwaukee and the yard was GRIDLOCKED... we would wait for HOURS to get a switchlist, then switch 3 cars and then back to the yard office and wait and wait and wait for another switchlist... that NEVER came)... then it spread across the WHOLE U.S. rail network... power plants were super low on coal, intermodal trains not moving... reports were surfacing about literally canceling christmas because of the gridlock at the ports and fears of retailers not getting their christmas stock... we had our yard in sheboygan, wi where the yard foreman couldn't even get a work order to switch the customers... he had to call each customer on the phone and ask them what cars they wanted pulled and spotted and actually got out in the yard and walk the tracks to find the cars and give the customers a switch... now that dude should have won employee of the year... it got so bad that TRAINS magazine all but rescinded their GLOWING big sloppy wet kiss of a double issue devoted entirely to the UP just a year earlier, the november 1995 issue (the cover read UNION PACIFIC -SUPER RAILROAD)... TRAINS magazine ripped into UP for their mishandling of the SP merger... so yea while we look now at the merger and it looks like a success, it CERTAINLY wasn't a success right away
Thanks for the story! I just know it was very good for the guys on the ground. Thanks for checking it out!
Sounds like my story with the Rock Island.
The story of the Southern Pacific is honestly very sad. They were going through hard times and then when the SPSF merger failed, it brought them further downhill. Then the wreck on Cajon Pass happened at Duffy St on Cajon Pass in 1989 and that brought them further into a downward spiral.
They did it to themselves though. UP took the same system nd made it very profitable. I saw so much waste at SP.
Union Pacific won't let the SP 4449 Steam Locomotive run on the Union Pacific Main line
Union Pacific Doesn't use the Ex DRGW Tennessee Pass line and They also don't use the DRGW from Salt Lake City Utah to Denver Colorado Mark
I love ❤️ Your Opinion about the UP SP Merger
💯💯💯💯💯💥💥💥💥❤️🔥❤️🔥❤️🔥
Do you think we'll eventually have "mega merger" ? Resulting in a true coast-coast railroad? Here (Baton Rouge La.) my favorite railroad is Kansas City Southern. It's the smallest class one railroad, I keep waiting for it to get swallowed up by one of the "big fish" What do you think of the UP. heritage locomotives?
If the left get their way I believe railroads will, at some point, be nationalized. As for a coast to coast merger, there would have to be two of them. One up north (CSX/BNSF) and one down south (UP/NS) to avoid one monopoly. I didn't used to think it was a possibility but anymore, who knows?
I think the heritage locomotives look cool. I got to ride in the WP one on an Operation Redblock special.
darn this guy knows about trains
Financially something had to happen. Either someone was going to buy the entire SP or it was going to be broken up and sold off piecemeal. They simply did not have the resources to survive much longer. So in that respect the UP coming along was a good thing. As for how it worked out for people, well I guess everyone's mileage varied. My father was in TE&Y in Northern California and they were thrown into chaos. It took a good 5 years for things to return seniority wise where they had been before the merger, but by then a lot of peoples lives had long been thrown into chaos. The money was not the issue, just how they treated/managed their people and how lots of people with decades of service in were now chasing jobs to places they had never worked before. Fast forward to today and the former SP is in better shape than it had been for generations. The UP certainly puts their money where their mouth is. And they still make money hand over fist. Most of the people left on the UP now are hires from after the merger and so they have never known it to be anything other than what the UP has made things. Now that PSR is another story...
UP definitely made things easier for we on this end and this department. Most of the upper management in signal ended up being SP guys for the first few years.
Not in railroad though having been through a merger myself a lot of your experience no different then mine. I feel your pain. As well as a lot of what Mark mentioned in this video. It is damn if you do or don't. Sadly big fish always eats the little fish in a merger.
It's nice to have job security 🙂
It's nicer to be retired!
If Norfolk Southern merged with SP, it would of been in worse shape. Expect an Eastern railroad merge in the future.
Nice shirt! Where do you get one of those?
I got it online but can't recall the site. Maybe TeeSpring?
I work for the BNSF up in WA and I tell you what, we operate similar to the UP and as far as safety goes, it the same, now as for the merger between the BN and SF, lots of the old head BN guys said they didn't like it and they didn't care for the SF nor Krebs.
Yeah ATSF were kind of fascist about safety, or they called it the Santa Fe Way, or the wrong way.
Mr. Krebs was an SP guy who dragged Rollin Bredenburg, et all. with him to the upper echelon of Santa Fe during the ATSF/SP merger days, when the Scmidts guy was shown the door for his shinnegans with debentures and management faux pas jibberish.
Working for SP must have been very cool I am a lifelong ARIZONAN so dirty smoking TUNNEL units & bay window cabooses & I was hooked I modeled SP N scale I'm a big fan. UP isnt a favorite of mine killed COOLEST Railroads in 80s & 90s .my question is if you know where I can find film or video on former Rock island(SSW ) GOLDEN WEST LINE ? I'm interested in tucumcari to Amarillo route being with SP since 1979 I thought you might know
You should check out the video I did on the N scale layout in a caboose! It's in the "other stuff" playlist.
I'm afraid I don't know about info on those lines. Golden West is a good place to start. You might also check Omni Publications in Palmdale, Ca.
Thanks for checking it out!
When you were cutoff from sp did you consider the Santa fe or up or other railroads? Also I think you forgot but let's talk on another video talk about the railroad wife.
I interviewed with UP for a job on the Cima sub living in outfit cars. I declined and was offered a job driving trucks the next week.
Rail mergers have destroyed more trackage and obliterated more railroad heritage in this nation than any economic decline during any period has. They shed many good routes to short lines and abandon segments that still had industries desiring rail service. They shut out lots of businesses that wanted rail service; most of those were small businesses. I was a conductor from 2004-2014. In 2014 I was inured and retired early but it has not gotten any better since then. PSR has made things even worse; safety has suffered significantly. There should be more class ones not the limited handful there are today. KCS was the most recent one to fall to CP. Not sure how that will play out over the next few years but maybe CP will not be as stupid as US owned class ones.
SP and SF shed ALL unprofitable branches. Unless the shipper is huge, just having one or two shippers desiring service is rarely worth the costs involved in keeping a branch open. Short lines have far fewer expenses and can afford to operate on smaller margins, thus the sale of the San Joaquin Valley branches to SJVRR, who continue to operate them profitably. Many of the lines that closed in mergers were parallel routes no longer needed. Had railroads not engaged in these mergers, many would have failed outright with the loss of ALL jobs. As an SP employee of 17 years, I can guarantee they would not have survived, which would have been far worse than the outcome of the UP merger. KCS was a Rust Belt railroad and was on the ropes as well. The CP merger opened up a lot of new business for both roads, which is better than the KCS failing and their employees hoping someone would pick up the pieces. Every industry has to evolve or die. It has always been that way, and always will be. Which one did you work for?
@@MarkClayMcGowan UP.
Odd how they blocked the Santa Fe/SP merger because it would create a monopoly in the area but approved the UP/SP merger which did exactly the same thing.
I could understand it in some areas where UP had no presence, but as a whole, it never made a lot of sense.
The Railroad Industry sounds a lot like the Construction Industry- one big roller coaster! If you can't have a secure future with a Class I Railroad, there is not much hope anywhere. Hopefully you have a decent retirement after 40 years on and off?
Even though lockdowns, shoulder surgery and a near death experience with covid, I'm still loving retirement!
Thanks for checking it out!
It's a bizarre twist of railroad fate. Union Pacific started out as not much more than an oversized Midwest granger road. Southern Pacific on the other hand was an empire. So much so it was fictionalized in the novel The Octopus. Yet all these years later it is Uncle Pete that has survived. What would the Big Four say if they could see this?
Interesting take, but growing up in CA I kind of get that impression as well. (even though it was the Central Pacific in the beginning) Somehow even the big boy didn't seem as impressive as a big cab forward tunnel loco, or the mighty rotary plow.
Yes. CP was an established line when UP was still a paper corporation. Considering the nefarious beginnings of UP, I'm surprised they got things steaightened out and started making money.
@@MarkClayMcGowan when we think about the recent insurrection on capital hill, it was nothing in terms of getting something done. Credit Mobilier, now that was how to do it. I mean they literally walked around the Senate floor with stacks of Union Pacific common stock! And poor Theodore Judah tried to lobby the honest way and died of malaria caught crossing in Panama on his way to the east coast. I guess it wasn't in vain, his death cemented the need for the Pacific railroad.
Where you get the T shirt?
Online but I don't recall the site.
The whole mess started when the BN merger was approved. The Milwaukee Road was a major interchanger with the SP in the Pacific Northwest. Somehow the Milwaukee was promised things to not object to the proposed merger. Once that merger happened all agreements made with all roads including the SP were broken. The courts didn t care. There was a recession going on at the time. The ROCK Island went down and collapsed. The Western Pacific Railroad suffered along with Western Railroads in general...EXCEPT for the BN. Eventually the SANTA FE and THE S P....
but the SP was not allowed to merge with the SANTA FE. So the SP was set adrift without the assets that had been there in the past....those were in the posession of the Santa Fe. UP was far enough away from the BN to fend for itself. The SP and DRGW were effectively thrown into each others arms. But that was not enough to stop the money hemmoraging. BNSF merger came along...again...the court didn t care. SO ...ultimately..all the assets that the SP once had were ultimately turned against them. That money was in the hands of SP s competition. Union Pacific wanted the railroad after all.....the rest is history.
mark the rio grande and SP merger was in 1989
Actually it was 1988
Ditto... my experience.....
SP was running on deferred maintenance at least the last 20 years of its life, solely and mostly do to poor management
Agreed. They couldn't make a dime but the branch operators and UP have made a killing since as well as staying on top of maintenance.
The DRGW merger may have been no picnic, but remember when Kansas City Southern Industries (the then-parent of KCS) expressed interest in acquiring the financially troubled Espee on the heels of the SPSF merger failing to gain regulatory approval? Be glad that KCS wasn't able to grab SP on the cheap. KCSI at the time still owned the lucrative non-rail entities _Stillwell Financial, Janus Mutual Funds_ and _DST._ The KCS _railroad_ wasn't even the parent company's 2nd priority. When you talked in the video about how Union Pacific wasn't afraid to spend money to make money... KCS was the polar opposite. They penny-pinched the heck out of *everything* during that time. Things improved a bit once the parent company spun-off all of its non-rail subsidiaries and became just a railroad, but that potential Frankenstein SP/KCS merger would have been far more painful than anything Uncle Pete ever did to the former Espee. Cheers
Yeah. Things certainly could have been worse!
Thanks for checking it out.
Yeah but KCS
Shocked UP WITH tha KCS deMexico addition
@@arizonalurps5150 True. Haverty was a visionary. His strategic moves are paying off decades later.
What caused the Espee to do so bad financially and what was the UP doing different that they’re one of the biggest money makers in the industry?
SP seemed to forget they were competing with other railroads and transportation businesses. I also believe they were involved in too many non railroad businesses and waited too long to get rid of them. I don't think they updated their business model much after 1970 and management was, in my opinion, spoiled. You had to murder someone to get fired and then it had better be someone important and their sales department was a joke.
UP had no qualms with booting managers who didn't get their job done. They ran a much tighter ship
Well remember all the expensive accidents they had. Runaway on Cajon, derailment at Ventura under the 101 freeway, Sacramento River chemical spill just to name a few that happened in 1989, 1990 & 91...
I think the merger was easier in the mataince dept. Signal, Track, and B&B than in the TE&Y. In the Operating Dept. ( After I transferredin 98 ) We're treated like children. They scrutinized every little thing we did...Sooo nitpick ing about the dumbest things. BTW it's not like that now because we have no managers due to the 2020 plan🤣Remember the craft that always suffered the most in railroading was the railroad clerk! Damn Computers!
UP sounds like a better run company than SP. These mergers are never easy for working folks. At least you didn't work in the corporate office where only one is needed. Corporate offices are the first to arrive at the scene of a merger. Best of luck.
Much better run company! Most worker bees spent so much time complaining about how the 2020 plan made their jobs more a pain, they never realized that 2,000 glass house jobs were lost before it trickled down to us.
Thanks for checking it out!
Up has service units the roseville service unit salt lake service unit los angeles service unit etc.
Yeah, i know but seniority is statewide
UP/ SP Merger in my Opinion was the Worse Railroad Merger and Union Pacific was Heavy Handed when it Took over the
Southern Pacific in 1996 Mark
If you were hired in 1979 then you must be a baby boomer. Baby boomers were infants and toddlers when Steam Trains ended their active services in the 1950’s and early 1960’s.
I was born in 59. I missed the era entirely!
My Parents are baby boomers and My dad was born a year after the 3751 retired. And the 4449 retired the year before my mom was born.
That is why I call Boomers the Pennsylvania Railroad F9 Locomotives. I call F9 Locomotives the Boomer locomotives. Because there are a series of diesel locomotives built between 1946 and 1964.
And I call the green Burlington northern Locomotives the Gen X Locomotives.
I also do collections of what steam locomotives retired between 1946 and 1964.
As a die hard Southern Pacific fan Union Pacific sucks .I knew all the crews on the Spcsl side and they did not like it at all.😢
As a railfan, you shouldn't base your opinion of UP on the word of a few trainmen. As a 40 year (1979-2019) signal employee, UP was a MUCH more stable work environment than SP ever was. UP expected you to do your job, no matter who you were. SP was loaded with "fairhaired boys" who were horrible employees. Many didn't make it at UP, but that was their fault. Trainmen are really the only ones you'll hear complaining about the difference because UP treated them the same as everyone else, which was something they weren't used to.
The spotty tune aesthetically love because granddaughter grossly press along a chilly spy. erect, jumbled pan
THIS WAS ONE MERGER THAT SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN ALLOWED TO HAPPENED!IT IS BAD ENOUGH THAT THE UP TOOK THE WESTERN PACIFIC, THE DENVER ,AND RIO GRANDE WESTERN!NOW YOU MUST REMEMBER THAT ONCE THE MERGER WENT THROUGH, A LOT OF RAILROAD WORKERS LOST THEIR JOBS! AND EVERY TIME THE SURFACE TRANSPORTATION BOARD APPROVES A MERGER, MANY WORKERS LOSE THEIR JOBS. IT IS A KNOWN FACT!THEY MERGE,AND THE WORKERS LOSE! JUST LOOK AT THE DISASTER THAT HUNTER HARRISON BROUGHT TO CSX! THESE MERGETS HAS CAUSED MANY LINES TO VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR!, NOT TO MENTION THE MESS AT NBNSF!
Without it, SP would never have survived. They were $4 billion in debt with a negative operating ratio. Also, mergers became common in every major industry during that era. It was economically inevitable. Airlines, aviation, pharmaceuticals, healthcare, oil. All went through them. The only jobs lost in the early years of SP/UP were management. I don't recall operating losing jobs, but I know engineering actually went through a hiring binge and many major upgrade projects were undertaken that would never have happened under SP. WP was in the same boat.
Where did you get the tshirt.
I think it was from T spring. An online place.