Dual Little Grom Ft. Druzhina | Kislev vs Tomb Kings - Total War Warhammer 3
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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I love Kislev but this is the problem with hybrid factions, which is why they, along with Vampire Coast, can feel so oppressive.
A good TK rush build, with lots of Tomb Guard, some Tomb Scorpions, a couple Ushabti you hide behind some initial cover or in the woods, would crush the infantry at the start but wouldn't be able to contest the cavalry, and your lord would probably be sniped if the Little Groms sit on them the whole match cause you have so much else to micro.
But if your opponent doesn't bring Little Groms, you'll be torn apart by War Sleds, Ambushers, and Bear cav, which require things like Bone Giants and Ushabti Great Bows to fight.
Kislev's just got so many tools that are strong enough individually, and altogether make it difficult to come up with a "counter."
Doesn't help exactly that TK are _horribly_ outdated as a faction at this point... honestly, the poor ol' bony bois are so in need of some buffs it's not even funny!
IMHO, Bone Giants need to be buffed to the point where they hit almost as hard as that new 'Watcher' character for Grand Cathay, who's basic shots alone can just _delete_ artillery models(!) - least then, TK might actually have a decent counter-sniping tool...
@PeteTheGrouch Honestly, the older content needs a fresh update that places them on the same playing field as the latest content. In fact, Tomb Kings suffer from OG CA dlc policies in the same way Wood Elves and Beastmen did in TWW 2.
I agree with most of this but Coast? Coast is not hybrid, Coast is monstrous/gunline. Their most hybrid units and Necrofex and Pistol mobs
You probably get told this a lot, but I've been watching you for 8 years or so and your thumbnails are consistently the most eye-catching thing on my frontpage :D
It continues to drive me insane that so many ranged factions have restock except wood elves who use light weight sticks as ammunition. Sure sometimes they are magical sticks, but still they're light weight. This one random guy can easily carry around tons of canon shells and magic arrows for either little grom or ice guard.
That's one of the reasons firearms took over; the ammunition was smaller, lighter, and easier to mass produce.
Of course, that's of historical interest, not game balance.
It's always a bittersweet feeling when a faction you like becomes the oppressive powerhouse in the meta. You've rooted for them since they were in the pits so they deserve their time in the limelight, but by Sigmar it feels dirty.
This is why the Empire will always be my favorite faction. Through all three games I can't recall a single moment where they were the dominant force (maaaaybe the first couple months when Halberd Demis were unstoppable?), but at the same time they have never been a dumpster faction. Perpetually average.
Agreed, and very well said 👍
Exactly. Kislev has been my favorite for a while and ever since the Ostankya came out it has been sad seeing the stuff I like about Kislev being replaced (when was the last time we saw Streltsi, a giant ice bear, or the ice guard?) by stuff that doesn't feel like them, to me. You're left never getting to see the faction you like and dealing with them being overpowered rather than a fun underdog to root for.
Oh boy, i remember those days i feared Empire just for demis. They were the first unit i considered op, but yeah, that was ages ago.
Also multiple spirit leech casters (looking at you, counts) on flyers to snipe the lord.
Those were some wild times...
Calling the arty "Grom" is so funny since in a lot of Slavic languages it means "Thunder" (keep in mind grom is a singular word for a countable thunder, plural being gromovi at least in my language and the more ambiguous version that you can't count would be gromovina, though that would be closer to something like "thundering" in English, and I mean the noun).
It's also funny that that lord's name means "company" in my language, of more like "troupe", "band" or "bunch" depending on context. Like a company of soldiers or a bunch of boys, something like that. Basically, a word for "group". It could, I guess, also mean something like "companionship" though I feel like it would be used differently - still, it's a more archaic word in my language, you'd probably hear it used more in idk Russian probably.
I think Kislev is straight up cracked right now.
They're so cost efficient and powerful, that I'd call it unfair. Even your counter build isn't a great answer, since they can just call in the halberds and you're in a situation where your heroes are either dying or not doing much.
At least this latest update gave us all what we desperately needed: Kislev buffs.
Its tough, cause I think in Warhammer 2 I would have brought a large single entity like a Necrosphynx, had it punch through and just beeline for the little groms but... In Warhammer 3 those big single entities just die SO FAST.
I think that the nehekara anti infantry tombking unit is really cost effective imo and will trade well against kislev. keep up the good work turin, long time fan and its always good to see your content.
From what you said about tabletop the screaming skull catapult should have the -16 leadership debuff the RoR grudge thrower has...maybe change the grudge thrower to cause rampage because reasons
Good Stuff Turin!
Witchbrew healing is about 80% of a eartblood cast. The shape can be seen as better or worse but i think its a wash. All that said it is also a damage spell, but when it comes to healing i still prefer the patriach. Embedden ito the cront line while on foot he can support 2 or 3 units for quite a while with just his item, while the prayer can be saved for a driveby with heroes, monsters or cav.
if you use that tomb king spell that gives bonus vs large when overcast on a target and then dive the groms with the RoR carrion. that might shut them down quickly
Don't have access to RoR Carrion in MP =(
Healing on the overcast Witchbrew sounds useful not so much for the healing, but in that you won't be dealing any friendly fire to your units
Missle resist...against bone giant arrows?
been thinking of getting into table top for a while not sure if i wanna run da boyz or lots n lots of rats
Boyz probably safer for now!
@@turinRTS nice it make me happy they are good, but i def am a rule of cool player so my army either way is going to be so haggard!! XD
Golden knight is insane
Try some scorpions. Also you could lifesteal and shoot them with Titans ^^
Double Groms looks powerful.
I think a casket with stalkers could counter this with clever play but would still be a toss up. Seems like a spicy match up.
edit: though more tomb guard could probably make an argument.
It's a little funny, from what i have been picking up Kislev has been pretty top tier since SoC came out, and not only did they get more good stuff, but they buffed some of their stuff.. A little wack..
Did Boyars get buffed?
I ask because nobody uses them
So get this, +5 MA and MD. Druzinha is much more versatile with restock and ranged boosting passive around him while the boyar has more armor, can have a bear, and is anti-infantry to dual.
so if you already like khalida in this matchup why not double boner giant with with her buff and the lore of nehkhara spell increasing their dmg to win against the double groms
I believe missile resist doesn't work against siege like the bone giant?
It should work against them
It even works with magic missiles
It works against them. The issue is most units with multiple models means each model has limited HP. Therefore, regardless of the missil resistance, 20% less damage against 400 damage is not gonna save an individual model with 70 health.
However, if you have rediculous MR (Eg: 90% in campaign) or using SE, then it'll make a major difference
Are the Kislev buffs so bad that you are going to need to ban them from Tournaments?
Hell yeah TK. Hope they get some love too by CA 🥺
I love ushabti but honestly they're awful. Even when buffed up in campaign they're just not as good as other units. In multiplayer definitely never bring ushabti unless it's ushabti bows obviously. Also Settra's new glorious charge feels pretty good.
Bro use the sepulcar stalkers ammo first, its really strong
I hate skull catapults right now. Take a look how they shoot. They always hit own troops, always
How dumb is CA? Druzhina means a team of warriors. How can they call one person in this way? xd
Surely CA would never make a race that is getting a DLC OP... that would just be crazy of them... not as if they did it the first time they released the DLC with the two mortis engine AP anti-large monsters. I will say I'm a little surprised they managed to do it again with the same DLC lmao
Kind of nuts that they buff little grom the same patch they add a lord with restock but hopefully that gets addressed soon maybe just cost increase on little grom because that combo does sound like fun in campaign, also they really should tone down the healing on the patriarch maybe even same amount total on more charges so it takes longer and has less burst heal.
The problem with the Patriarch is the Brazier item, dude shouldn't have it on top of Salyak it's too much.
Give it to Kostaltyn - where it belongs - and actually make him a viable LL to pick. He *should* be the 'go to' Kislev LL pick for blobbing.
Maybe try horse archers to poke at groms, then kite into an ambush with stalkers. Go super wide with carrions, double tomb prince and arkan throw spirit leech on grom.
Your problem there is if they just go for a blob you automatically lose.
That won't work Kislev is broken
@@jaredkronk4614very insightful lol
@@jaredkronk4614 TK players crying about broken things 😁
@@ofgreyhairwaifu4089 Not so funny now is it skelly bois?
This is going to be probably a hot take, but I firmly believe the MP meta in Total war is severely underdeveloped still. I don't play MP in TW (yet maybe, but I watch a ton, thanks Turin!) But I have played competitively at a high level in multiple games, most relevant being decently ranked Masters in SC2. While there are undeniably many many talented MP players in the TW scene, it is still one of the smallest and least theorycrafted communities in the RTS scene.
I say this because I really enjoyed Turins excitement discovering some potential new ideas to deal with the Little Grom. I feel like we get stuck in a rut way too often and lean on the tried and true things. There just aren't enough talented players trying new things fast enough to make these rapid turnovers in the meta. I don't really have a point I guess, I just hope the MP scene can grow and more talented players give the game a shot, because it really is one of the more interesting RTS games for a lot of reasons. Thanks for being one of the reasons it's as good as it is Turin!
Honestly there are 2 problems to this.
1st we would need servers, this is something mentioned a lot simply hecause its true.
2nd there is quite a hefty entry barrier to this game. Even on a sale you probably pay around a 100€/$/£ to play at a competetive level.
The main issue is that the multiplayer is basically just an afterthought. Vast majority of players play campaign because paying 150$+ for all the games and DLC means a pretty huge barrier of entry for MP. Land battles need engagement rules because ingame mechanics can't prevent you from kiting or turtling. And domination needs custom maps because the official ones are too small and chokepointy sans like two. And unlike something like Starcraft or Dota that just lives off from MP the multiplayer balance patching takes ages and fails to address big issues.
@@shiggydiggy6847 to be fair based on reports the mp scene is only about 10% of the players.l, so yeah it IS an afterthought to them.
@@shiggydiggy6847 @shimatzu95 you are both correct, however the more we support and grow the scene the better chance we have of getting these things. The aftermath of Hyenas and soc backlash and pharaoh flopping, this istl the best chance we have to put pressure on for these kinds of things. A pipe dream maybe but worth the effort imo.
Btw that is a misconception. Starcraft 2 might be carried now by MP because it's pretty dead tbh, but at its peak the majority of the player base actually played custom maps and campaign and stuff. It's actually the reason why stormgate is getting a campaign. MP scenes are fairly small in almost every game that has a single player. TW might be a bit smaller than average but it's actually pretty normal
What is the lore behind patriarchs? What do they eat to heal more then undead?
Goulash, of course.
Kislev will always be a hard faction to balance. They're focused around all their units being versatile, many being hybrid units. This has in my experience from other games always led to the faction being either very strong (capable of doing everything well) or being very bad (unable to do anything well). Right now, I think Kislev in general is suffering from having too much going. Can't route them easily due to their passive and generally a high leadership. Hard to outflank them since they can call in cheap cavalry and most of their stuff is hardy and tank anyways.
Almost everything has a bear which means it'll be able to pack a punch in melee. I think the only thing Kislev doesn't excel in is magic, and I am not sure if the new lore of hags will change that, but that remains to be seen.
I honestly don't know how to fix Kislev. Right now they're overtuned, but things are likely to change now that the patch has been pushed and balancing can be put into focus. I just hope CA doesn't have to play a catch-up game with their promised scheduled releases and balancing.
Do you think they would be balanced if Kossars had thier ammunition reduced to something like 8 on the base and 3 on the Armored?
Hybrids need trade-offs. They need to be middling at both their roles. Kossar Spears for example need to be demonstrably worse than other factions´ Archers AND Spearmen. Ideally they should need to use a decent chunk of their ammo AND fight big targets to make their value back. The "2 for the price of 1" paradigm needs to go, it should be closer to "2 halves for the price of 1".
@@luhso7552 Maybe, but I reckon it still would feel pretty unsatisfying to play against. It never felt to me like there is a 'correct' approach to fighting Kislev units, and even if Kossars would have lower ammo (which is somewhat countered now by Kislev gaining an ammo replenishing character) it would do little to make it feel better to fight them.
It would be a good step in the right direction though.
If I don't see a John Cena thumbnail with the invisible tomb princes face photoshopped over in your next TK video... oh what I'll do to you.
Looks like Turin's predictions that Kislev would get really strong after some dlc were right...
Turin aiming his Groms: th-cam.com/video/KfU69_up02Y/w-d-xo.html
Hey Turin. Have you thought about expanding you streams. Maybe showing some table top gameplay? You're fun guy you watch, and I thought about getting into tabeltop and I was hoping you'd stream tabelstop sometime soon? We'd also get a good view of your painted units. Thanks to lady Turin!
haven't played the Huntsman in a while but these stats combined with the AP in melee seems like the Druzhina is actually better than wulfhart, which would be super CA but also super dogwater!
wouldn't arkhan skele summon with some carrion to disrupt back line would be good here ? the stalker took a lot of time only to fail their mission and eventually the little grom got their value anyway, I think contesting on the air with kislev is definitely a much easier approach
I was wondering if TK could do the same thing as kislev here, necrotect have simillar abilities, one that gives missile resist, and one that heals, so for 800g he could have boosted their performance a lot
maybe somthung unortdox goblin or dwarf vanguard ambush the groms
Could it be worth to trade a Prince for a Necrotect to look after the boner giants? Putting him on foot might also help to clear out infantry with the chaff
Iron drakes with trollhammers looks at little grom and luminark getting %50 attack speed buff without any damage nerfs and writes that grudge.
Now I'm looking forward to the next Arkhan and 2x Jeff TK video.
Turin says that there is no one beating Kislev in domination. What about buffed lizards and also dwarfs? Also they are not that high in totaltavern after first 2 tourneys.
Cant wait to see Golem sniper in a Cathay game
The Kislev Buffs aren't nearly as atrocious as the Lizardmen ones
How so?
Except for the fact that Lizards weren't borderline OP already and have legitimate weaknesses.
Kislev had their goated artillery made even better and were given access to cheap AP anti-large, making one of their few counters in monsterous infantry significantly weaker.
Necropolis Knights (Halberds)?