Renly was like young Robert, but he was surrounded by the Tyrells and not the Lannisters, so there's a good chance that he'd have been better. The Lannisters never should have been brought into their family.
I never thought Renly was to blame for it, but I always totally understood why Stannis was pissy with both his brothers. Stannis nearly starved to death holding Dragonstone during the rebellion, only for Robert to give it to Renly as soon as the war ended, along with a seat on the Small Council. My anger would have been directed more at Robert, but yeah, I would have felt some kind of way too.
I think you meant Storm's End. I don't think that Renly got the council position at the same time as getting Storm's End though. The books don't mention when he became master of laws, but he was way too young for that position at the time.There was a Lord Symond Staunton who was master of laws under Aerys II. It's not mentioned what happened in the rebellion. Either he survived and remained on the council or someone else was master of laws before Renly got the position.
Renly would have been another Robert, only with theatre and singing instead of tourneys. Robert was a great wartime king and I'm sure Renly could be similarly effective in diplomacy. But neither wanted to rule and govern
@@logancarlile8895 Sure, but he wasnt the actual ruler (that would be Jon Arryn as Hand) nor the king. I'm saying that were he in Robert's position he probably would have done much the same, leaving his Hand and council to handle basically everything. On top of that, Renly plays favorites. Robert doesnt care about being loved and everybody stays in line cause he will crush any rebels in open war - so he just lets Arryn pick and chose the small council. But Renly has Mace Tyrrel as his Hand (arguably a diplomatic necessity, but a horrible one), he puts Loras in charge of his Kingsguard AND his army (a brash summer child who has only played at war in tourneys) plus he picks a WOMAN for his last spot on the Kingsguard, alienating bannermen who might have a family member available for the spot - and arguably even strengthening Shireen's legitimacy as Stannis' heir by defying gender norms.
Robert almost never made the meetings; Renly almost never missed. Renly imo had the most modern understanding of political leadership of any of the rulers. In some ways borderline unrealistically modern.
It should've been King Stannis with Renly as Hand. Stannis' heir is sickly Princess Shireen. All Renly had to do was wait for Stannis to die and if Princess Shireen is still alive either convince her to not be the first Queen of Westeros, k!ll her secretly, or convince the realm to follow precedent and hold a great council that selects Renly as King Renly I Baratheon with Margaery Tyrell as his Queen.
Renly was actually Stannis heir. Girls can’t inherit the Iron Throne. Renly even mentions being 4th in line behind Joffrey,Tommen, and Stannis. So he was ahead of Mrycella and Shireen
Stannis offered to make Renly his heir as part of the deal. A mixture of his pride and perceived power at the time meant he didn't take it. He may have thought he would have lost his southern power base by backing down early.
Problem is, if Stannis is king, what reason would the Tyrells have to buy into the regime? Stannis is married to a Florent, and if Shireen marries and has a son, he could challenge Renly's claim.
Renly armour is interesting. The colour green and the antlers recalls Garth Greenhand, legendary figure of the reach associated with fertility who Renly symbolically resembles. On the other hand "Green as grass" is a common saying meaning not ready and Renlys fine clothes are somewhat impractical on occasion.
Yeah, he's dressing as a Green Man/Summer King. A sick king, though, as he has on jade instead of emerald, and black instead of white. The night is coming. Cat sees her self drowning in a green sea looking at his armor. He is killed by a the shadow of a blue eyed king with a burning sword (Azor Ahai) in a magical green tent, given a "red smile" like a Weirwood, and afterwards, most of his forces go over to the cold, blue eyed king.
Green Man and Green boy All nature/summer/fertility coded. I know all the baratheon bros have blue eyes, it's just Stannis being associated with the cold/winter/scarcity/infertility AND having blue eyes, going against a summer king (with a shadow, no less, At DAWN) really makes him seem like a Night's King figure.
Renly was my second favourite character in the whole story at one point 😪 I don’t know if he still is, but I’m still devastated he was murdered. Hold a grudge against Stannis for it to this day
I definitely wouldn't call Renly the best fit to be king, he's kinda an entitled brat who kept getting everything he wanted, and now thinks he deserves the throne basically just because he wants it. He also notably surrounds himself with yes-men like the Tyrells, in stark contrast to others like Robb and especially Stannis. If he didn't have such disdain for his older brother, he could've learned some valuable lessons about the importance of dissenting voices who speak the truth, Davos being the obvious example.
@@mikelo9266 Nah. Better then Joffrey to be sure, but both Stannis and Tommen (weirdly) made better leaders than Renly would've. Well, I guess really Kevan Lannister gets all the credit regarding Tommen's rule. That ban on beets tho...
His arrogance destroyed him. He was literally willing to Kill his own brother for clout so Stannis was literally forced to Kill Renly. On top of that, he was gay. He had no intentions on producing an heir, so he would've been another Laenor. All he did was further complicate an already complicated situation. Had he teamed up with Stannis the war would've ended that day
Renly was an egomaniac and a narcissist. He would have made a terrible ruler who would brook no disagreement or criticism. His extravagant ways would have beggared the realm to a degree that not even Littlefinger would be capable of. The whole point of Catelyn talking with him is to show that although he is popular on the surface, there isn't actually anything useful or real that he is good at. He is pretty to look at but not useful for much else, like Donnal Noye said. Renly was tall, strong, handsome and likable. But he had no great intellect, no skill in governance, no skill at war, no skill at finance. Nothing at all. Imagine a king who has the power to command any man's loyalty, yet no ability to make things actually better, and a fragile ego besides. He would punish those who criticize his awful rule, but not make any meaningful improvements to anyone's life. So spare me your praise of this Copper King. Even Viserys III Targaryen would have made a better king.
I think your very wrong while I don't ultimately like or approve of Renly he shows political shrewdness that bleeds a little into the realm of warfare. Even Tyrion prior to the Renly's assassination claims that where he in Renly's shoes he would be doing much the same thing. Parading his strength attracting more followers by the display and letting his army encroach upon the capital at a rate that won't attrition his forces. Donal Noye is not infallible nor a clumsy mouth piece for the author he can be and is often wrong about other people. Renly maybe self centered, greedy and impetuous but he's not useless or stupid.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 I didn't say he's stupid, but other than being popular, he's not good at much. He had double Stannis' strength at Storm's End and just expected to rush him and win, against the best battle commander in Westeros, feared even by Tywin Lannister himself. There is also the fact that Stannis had a strategy prepared and intended to win Renly fair and square, he didn't consciously kill Renly, as you can read from when he recounts his dream of it to Davos. Even Randyll Tarly points out that this is Stannis Baratheon, you can't expect to win just because you have more soldiers. In the books it was 10 000 Renly's men vs. 5500 with Stannis. NOT impossible odds. But that's beside the point. Noye's characterization is correct: Renly is attractive, but has no other significant skills in other areas, i.e. pretty to look at. And he is a narcissist, Look up his speech to Catelyn when he explains why he should be king.
@@lukemurphy3845 I'm just reading Clash of Kings this year. I don't know what you mean. Renly is useless, he's not ideal, he's the worst of the brothers at everything, and he would have been a worse king than Aerys and Joffrey. Unless you make an actual argument or post quotes where I am wrong I have no idea what you're talking about and you might as well post nothing, if you have nothing of substance to say.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 Except everything he shows suggests utter military incompetence. He raced off without supplies or infantry, forcing him to fight Stannis with all cavalry, and a deadline to beat his brother before his army starved. His battle plan consisted of a blind charge, in disadvantageous circumstances, against an enemy who had prepared the ground to their own advantage, under a seasoned veteran commander, who grew up in the area and knew it well and has had plenty of time to familiarize his army. Renly gave the key leadership position to a rash & inexperienced knight out of favoritism and he ignored all advice to the contrary. He treats his victory as a foregone conclusion, but Stannis is not stupid and also does not gamble, he plans things out, sees to all the details and makes preparations. There is no way he was just sitting there waiting to be crushed by Renly's knights.
The whole show was written to spite Stannis. The only example you need is the fact that they made Stannis go hat in hand to the Iron Bank, when in the book they seek him out, as he is the only sane and stable bet in the realm, after Cersei went mad with power.
The idea that Renly would be a better king than Stannis is laughable. Renly was even more extravagant than Robert, but had none of his combat capability or strategic mind. He would have made an enemy of the Iron Bank with further debts and would have triggered a succession crisis what with him being a pillow biter and all. At least Stannis had Shireen and might have gotten a more fertile wife had Selyse died. Stannis would have been disliked by nobles who may have had to face fair justice and law for the first time in their lives, but that would inadvertently made Stannis well liked by the peasantry. Renly would have been as bad or worse than Robert in that regard and would be happy to look past bad behavior in exchange for support and favors. Only Joffrey and Cersei made worse monarchs than Renly. It is telling that Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys, and Tywin all feared Stannis above all else because of his strength and commitment to justice. No one feared Renly.
I mean Renly was a warrior. He fought well at tourneys and intended to be first of the vanguard in his battle against Stannis. Hes described as being a young Robert, he was a strong man.
@@atari947 Ser Jorah Mormont goes into detail about the stark difference between a tourney knight and actual warriors. And he wasn't in the vanguard I distinctly remember him claiming the right or left flank, not the center.
@DebtDoctor1 ah, right. i think Loras was to take the centre. That is a little rich coming from Jorah. A man whose life was defined by winning a tourney. Did he ever say what the name of his wife was? Anyhow, i think there is some correlation between tourneys and performance in a real war. Many of the great warriors did very well at tourneys. Even a fighter like Oberyn won in tourneys.
Stannis the fucking Mannis. I love Stannis but I do just want to add that Stannis is would no doubt become enemies with the Seven and he would probably have a Maegor v Church situation on his hand
@@atari947I have no doubt Renly was at least decent with a sword but we never get any indication that he was anywhere near as good or strategic at legit war like Tywin, Rhaegar, or Robert. I think when he's described as a young Robert it's in reference to how he looks not his personality or skills
Renly wouldn't of made a good king he was too people pleasing the Tyrells would of wanted more power lands etc margety being queen wouldnt of been enough for fhem
Renly is frustrating character because he could have won the Game of Thrones by just marching on Kings landing. Tywin and Robb were fighting in the west and Stannis was still on Dragonstone. There was nothing between him and Kings landing but a nice March down the kings road. And Renly would have been aware of how few fighting men Joffrey had to defend the city. Instead he waited around to see if enemies would destiny each other and Stannis had time to gather an army and sic a demon baby on him.
It's really just the demon baby tbh, all the stormlords were on renly's side and stannis' army was ~8000 at most, each day Renly was hosting tourneys and slowly going up the roseroad his army was getting bigger, stannis was stagnating, KL was starving and tywin and robb were weakening eachother in the riverlands. No demon baby = stannis loses under storm's end, no way around it, you can be as brilliant of a general as you like, but 10 000 armored horse against half as many in leather is not a winnable battle. Once he reaches the capital? Littlefinger has the goldcloaks and what are his options, 1. Try withstanding a siege and likely die since who is there to relieve it? or 2. Throw open the gates and pledge loyalty to Renly. Petyr would probably give priority to his own head over Joff and the rest's. In my opinion, he was just too good at the game and had to be Deus ex machina'd by the only thing that could defeat him, straight sex. On a meta-narrative level I see why, the pointlessness of war is a core theme of the story and if renly wins in 2 months it's not nearly as tragic.
He actually was marching on King's Landing though. The books say he was at Highgarden and then he was marching up the roseroad and when Catelyn goes to him, he is at Bitterbridge with his army. Tyrion also says that Tywin can still attack Renly from the rear from Harrenhal which Tywin took as a base. “The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture.” “I am informed that Renly Baratheon has marched from Highgarden. He is making his way up the roseroad, with all his strength behind him.” So I don't know where this idea that he was sitting around and doing nothing comes from. Tywin and Robb were not fighting each other. Robb had taken Riverrun and Tywin had Harrenhal. The Blackfish mentions that Tywin wants Robb to march on Harrenhal. “More fool they. My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish. Lord Tywin would like to fight on a field of his own choosing. He wants us to march on Harrenhal.” It takes time to gather an army. It's not like a video game where you instantly move them on a map. So Renly was doing coming and he had already made his claim before Stannis did. I don't think you can expect Reply to know that Stannis is using shadow magic. Nobody knew that. Renly also expects the Cornish to join him after. “I have twice that number here,” Renly said, “and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm’s End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea.” Varys backs this by telling Tyrion about The banners being called. This is why Tyrion plans to marry Myrcella to Trystane Martell and promise them justice and a seat on the council. “The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” Stannis tried getting allies but Davos was unable to get them as they don't like him. Stannis is told by Melisandre that she has seen Renly die and she also saw Renly defeat his forces at King's Landing so Stannis goes to siege Storm's End. This is important because Renly wouldn't have gone there if the siege didn't happen. So maybe your mixing it up with he TV show, as I don't remember there being a siege at Storm's End. This is important in the books because Edric Storm is there and Stan is wants him. It's still under siege after Renly dies. The shadow baby thing would still happen regardless. Melisandre was able to use one on Telly without being smuggled in the book version. She had to be snuggled for the Storm's End one where it was used against Cortnay Penrose. That's because Storm's End has magic there, protecting it. I have no doubt that she would be able to get one in King's Landing too, if she was able to get one in Storm's End. Renly was already dead because Melisandre had seen his death. These "if, buts, what ifs" don't matter because he was already destined to die. Just as Stannis was destined to be defeated. The vision Melisandre saw of Renly defeating Stannis was not false but misinterpreted. You see, it was Renly's armour being worn by Garlan Tyrell who was known as Renly's ghost and they defeated Stannis at the battle of the blackwater. The magic in the books is just a important. Many of the fans tend to forget that. Stannis was going to still use the magic and so long as he lives, he is a threat. Everyone knew that. Here is Randyll Tarly mentioning not to ignore Stannis. “I say that Stannis is a danger to you,” Lord Randyll Tarly declared. “Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished by battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you … or stronger.” Nobody was going to win the game of thrones as the real war was coming from beyond the wall. Then you still have dragons to deal with. This war of five kings was a distraction and was only leaving the realm less prepared.
I Don't think so man. Catelyn chapters in A Clash of Kings are meant to show who Renly really was, not very unlike his brothers. He was vain and self absorbed, grasping for a crown when he already had a Kingdom(Storm's end and the Stormlands region as a while). Never satisfied, like a dog chasing a car(losing his parents definately had an impacto on him and his brothers). He's definately not a bad person, and has Intelligence and Carisma, but he needed more life experience and should've suported Stannis.
Renly does seem like an ideal choice on a surface level. He has a charm to him, charisma, and is a good politician with quick wits. He was aware that Robert's children were bastards way before the death of his brother. While he is likable among his lords and common folk, it has more to do with the Tyrell's influence over him. However, I think his reign would bring chaos. He doesn't mind breaking tradition and usurping his brother Stannis and killing him, just so he can become king. This would influence other 2nd and 3rd sons of great houses to usurp their brothers or fathers simply because they can or have the support. When Lady Catelyn came to him with a proposal of an alliance and peace, he basically dismisses her as a minor annoyance and amusement. Then he intends of breaking their laws and traditions yet again by holding Catelyn as a hostage against Robb. It is a violation of guest right. His offer to Ned Stark was pretty intelligent from a political perspective but it only benefited Renly... use Ned as pawn to usurp Joff's claim, leaving Ned to do the dirty work. Ned refused him because he was breaking tradition and laws of the kingdom. When he accepts Brienne into his Rainbow guard, he breaks tradition yet again, allowing her to publicly humiliate herself in his constant service while he consistently mocks her and makes fun of her behind her back with his other lords. Her loyalty to him is misguided, it's an illusion that Renly himself created through seemingly doing a good deed by giving her what she wanted. His mocking her in private is giving viewers a glimpse of the type of man he actually is. The Tyrell influence over him has a lot to do with the fact he is in love with Loras, and he's thinking with his dick instead of his brain. They are using him to gain power. The moment he is killed, they switch to the Lannister's instead of falling in line with Stannis because they could not gain power through the throne by proposing a marriage to him and instead married into the family they were marching to war against just months prior. Which brings me to my last point. He's gay. There is nothing wrong with this fact but he is rumored to be incompetent entirely when it comes to women, which leaves the question on if he could even produce an heir. Without one, his death would bring chaos and conveniently leave house Tyrell sitting in possession of the throne. In conclusion, Renly would have been better off being hand of the king, lord of the storm lands, and heir to Stannis if Stannis does not produce a son. His quest to become King would have brought more chaos with his own self interests and constant willingness to break traditions and laws set in place. His influence would lead others by example, and the example he is setting is quite dangerous.
@@capricornyearofthetiger ok ok that's Fair, I think either Daernerys or Stannis would make the best governors, and maybe give Faegon the benefit of the doubt, maybe🤔
This video is mostly hollow noise. The vast majority of it is simply a summation of the events in the books, and a superficial one at that, with no real analysis. Just the intro is full of nonsense. How is Renly the people's champion? How is he the most qualified? I also don't think Renly developed much a rapport with his bannermen, since so many of them were willing to meet with Stannis, even with Renly riding high after his coronation and Tyrell alliance. He does not have great burdens lying on him at any point. Yes, he is claiming a position of heavy responsibility, but he is able to smile and look unconcerned because he really is. We don't have any indication that he is actually taking any of the responsibilities seriously, or has any program of reform or governance in mind. His private tent suggests a man having a good time, not one campaigning to take a throne by force. The story often uses characters' homes as symbols of their nature or status at that moment, and while Storms End is technically Renly's it is used more as a symbol of the obdurate stubbornness of the Baratheons. It's Dragonstone that represents Stannis, and the closest equivalent for Renly is the tent Catelyn stays in, full of luxuries and toys, but also not sturdy or substantial. It's a recreational dwelling, not the basis of a kingdom. He's more at home at court than in a fortress, and that is another point against Renly. Unlike many of the potential kings, we are introduced to Renly in a political setting, holding a position of power. If he was concerned about the good governance of the realm, Ned, who is favorably disposed to him due to family connections, is right there, looking for help. But the only reasons Renly approaches Ned is in pursuit of his own path to power. He votes along with Robert on the matter of assassinating Dany, but utterly fails to discern anything of Ned's character in the Hand's arguments and subsequent resignation, and so his pitch to Ned is tone-deaf and could not be better calculated to alienate him. Renly isn't even smart enough to pretend concern for the betterment of the nation, and his campaign reflects that as well. The Lannisters are the enemies he NEEDS to get rid of. The Starks are perfectly willing to let him have the Iron Throne, albeit not over them, even if they will never lift a hand to raise him over Stannis. Even Stannis taking the throne is preferable from Renly's PoV, because he is still next in line, and treacherous brothers have managed to hold out & regain royal favor in real life (the brothers of Richard I & Edward IV come most readily to mind). The only claimant Renly absolutely cannot let win is Joffrey/Tommen under Tywin, because they will need to get rid of Robert's brothers to protect their own claim. Yet, instead of going hard for Kings Landing to take the Iron Throne, Renly dawdles and assumes things will work out for him. He talks about avenging Ned to Catelyn, but that would only entail doing what he was going to do anyway - killing Joffrey & Cersei. When Ned could have used his help, he bailed, rather than let Stannis claim the throne. He is willing to let a usurper sit the Iron Throne and do who knows what damage to the realm, rather than exert himself to rectify the situation. Because all Renly ever cared about was Renly. There is also not much evidence of people believing in Renly. The Tyrells have the Reach surprisingly firmly under their control. In prior civil wars, the Reach was divided, between the Blacks & Greens or Black Dragon & Red. Mace has his bannermen well in hand in Robert's Rebellion, despite the clear threat the Mad King posed to the nobility of the realm, and it is Mace they follow, in his quest to get a queen's crown for Margaery and the promise of a grandson sitting the Iron Throne. Renly is only drafting off this support through his marriage to Margaery, and they pivot smoothly to the Lannisters when Mace decides that's where his fortunes lie. As for his ghost drawing men away from Stannis, the western alliance was attacking Stannis' separated forces, with superior numbers, in a surprise flank attack. THAT is what decided the battle and "Renly's Ghost" just gave them an excuse to switch to the winning side to preserve their own lives and fortunes. No one is seriously in this for the memory of King Renly, not nearly to the degree Robert, Jon Arryn & the Starks all inspire loyalty even after their deaths. If anyone wept for Renly's death (besides Loras), it was out of fear for what the winner of the Iron Throne would do to them for supporting such an egregious traitor.
In response to this comment I do want to say a few things: 1. Thank you for such an in-depth response, there's a lot to think about here. 2. I suppose if I titled my videos "Character Lore & Analysis", they would be a bit more accurate, and that way clue in the audience to what they should really expect from these types of videos. 3. My plot summation has to be somewhat surface-level, otherwise the video would be way too long. 4. My analysis is focusing on one aspect of Renly, or at least how I interpreted him: a man who is adored by his subjects and possesses the perfect personality for court. Sure, there's more to kingship than that, but from a glance, he seems like he would be a great king, combining charm and experience. Do I personally think he would be the best king? No, but I wanted to examine why others may feel that way. Is that the only thing to think about with Renly's character? Obviously not. Like basically every other character in ASOIAF, he's way more complex than one video can encapsulate. Like with most of my other videos that focus on a single character, I wanted to delve into one aspect of Renly that I found distinctly interesting. Hope that clarifies some things, and thanks again for watching!
@@ExploringFiction Okay, fair enough. I was drawn by "too good to be true" thinking that was the premise of the video, but the impression I got from the video itself was that his death was what was meant, that he was too good a king to survive for narrative reasons, instead of his image was too good and the man underneath was rotten. That said, I do think the structure of the video would be a lot more interesting if you skipped all the background stuff, made the points about Renly, and cited only the plot details relevant to each point. That way, there would be more room in the video for your thoughts, instead of what we already got from the books.
@@Gunleaverhad never really considered the summation of Mace Tyrell, it's certainly in interesting point of view and something newk to consider finally
Renly was like young Robert, but he was surrounded by the Tyrells and not the Lannisters, so there's a good chance that he'd have been better. The Lannisters never should have been brought into their family.
I never thought Renly was to blame for it, but I always totally understood why Stannis was pissy with both his brothers. Stannis nearly starved to death holding Dragonstone during the rebellion, only for Robert to give it to Renly as soon as the war ended, along with a seat on the Small Council. My anger would have been directed more at Robert, but yeah, I would have felt some kind of way too.
Oh I agree, Stannis really got screwed in my opinion.
I think you meant Storm's End.
I don't think that Renly got the council position at the same time as getting Storm's End though. The books don't mention when he became master of laws, but he was way too young for that position at the time.There was a Lord Symond Staunton who was master of laws under Aerys II. It's not mentioned what happened in the rebellion. Either he survived and remained on the council or someone else was master of laws before Renly got the position.
Renly would have been another Robert, only with theatre and singing instead of tourneys. Robert was a great wartime king and I'm sure Renly could be similarly effective in diplomacy. But neither wanted to rule and govern
Renly did rule for years as a small council member and Lord of Laws.
@@logancarlile8895 we don't know of a single policy or thing he did.
@@logancarlile8895 Sure, but he wasnt the actual ruler (that would be Jon Arryn as Hand) nor the king. I'm saying that were he in Robert's position he probably would have done much the same, leaving his Hand and council to handle basically everything.
On top of that, Renly plays favorites. Robert doesnt care about being loved and everybody stays in line cause he will crush any rebels in open war - so he just lets Arryn pick and chose the small council.
But Renly has Mace Tyrrel as his Hand (arguably a diplomatic necessity, but a horrible one), he puts Loras in charge of his Kingsguard AND his army (a brash summer child who has only played at war in tourneys) plus he picks a WOMAN for his last spot on the Kingsguard, alienating bannermen who might have a family member available for the spot - and arguably even strengthening Shireen's legitimacy as Stannis' heir by defying gender norms.
And also he did crown himself king
Robert almost never made the meetings; Renly almost never missed. Renly imo had the most modern understanding of political leadership of any of the rulers. In some ways borderline unrealistically modern.
It should've been King Stannis with Renly as Hand. Stannis' heir is sickly Princess Shireen. All Renly had to do was wait for Stannis to die and if Princess Shireen is still alive either convince her to not be the first Queen of Westeros, k!ll her secretly, or convince the realm to follow precedent and hold a great council that selects Renly as King Renly I Baratheon with Margaery Tyrell as his Queen.
Renly was actually Stannis heir. Girls can’t inherit the Iron Throne. Renly even mentions being 4th in line behind Joffrey,Tommen, and Stannis. So he was ahead of Mrycella and Shireen
He would have been heir either way Stannis is a stickler for rules and wouldn't put his daughter ahead of his brother
🤷🏾♂️I said what I said🤷🏾♂️
Stannis offered to make Renly his heir as part of the deal. A mixture of his pride and perceived power at the time meant he didn't take it. He may have thought he would have lost his southern power base by backing down early.
Problem is, if Stannis is king, what reason would the Tyrells have to buy into the regime? Stannis is married to a Florent, and if Shireen marries and has a son, he could challenge Renly's claim.
Renly armour is interesting.
The colour green and the antlers recalls Garth Greenhand, legendary figure of the reach associated with fertility who Renly symbolically resembles. On the other hand "Green as grass" is a common saying meaning not ready and Renlys fine clothes are somewhat impractical on occasion.
Yeah, he's dressing as a Green Man/Summer King. A sick king, though, as he has on jade instead of emerald, and black instead of white. The night is coming.
Cat sees her self drowning in a green sea looking at his armor.
He is killed by a the shadow of a blue eyed king with a burning sword (Azor Ahai) in a magical green tent, given a "red smile" like a Weirwood, and afterwards, most of his forces go over to the cold, blue eyed king.
Green Man and Green boy
All nature/summer/fertility coded.
I know all the baratheon bros have blue eyes, it's just Stannis being associated with the cold/winter/scarcity/infertility AND having blue eyes, going against a summer king (with a shadow, no less, At DAWN) really makes him seem like a Night's King figure.
Renly was my second favourite character in the whole story at one point 😪
I don’t know if he still is, but I’m still devastated he was murdered. Hold a grudge against Stannis for it to this day
I definitely wouldn't call Renly the best fit to be king, he's kinda an entitled brat who kept getting everything he wanted, and now thinks he deserves the throne basically just because he wants it. He also notably surrounds himself with yes-men like the Tyrells, in stark contrast to others like Robb and especially Stannis. If he didn't have such disdain for his older brother, he could've learned some valuable lessons about the importance of dissenting voices who speak the truth, Davos being the obvious example.
Renly wants the Trohne because he thinks he would be the best King what is right,he would be a far better King then Stannis,Joffrey or Tommen
@@mikelo9266 Nah. Better then Joffrey to be sure, but both Stannis and Tommen (weirdly) made better leaders than Renly would've. Well, I guess really Kevan Lannister gets all the credit regarding Tommen's rule. That ban on beets tho...
Embodiment of "It's better to be loved, than feared"
He has so powerful connections and charms, that only dark magic can destroy him
he didnt deserve the throne, he was a greedy and unworthy king
His arrogance destroyed him. He was literally willing to Kill his own brother for clout so Stannis was literally forced to Kill Renly. On top of that, he was gay. He had no intentions on producing an heir, so he would've been another Laenor. All he did was further complicate an already complicated situation. Had he teamed up with Stannis the war would've ended that day
"Most qualified"???
Based on what? His experience as the master of laws? His experience with Intermittent Fasting?
What an underrated channel 😭 keep it up! You're awesome!!!!!!!!
Thank you so much!
Renly would’ve been good king but being good isn’t enough as a king.
I’ve watched/listened to so much ASoIF lore on TH-cam, but yours is really good dude! Awesome presentation.
You’ve got a new subscriber here for sure.
Thank you so much! Glad you enjoy it!
You're preaching. Thank u for this video ❤
Renly was an egomaniac and a narcissist. He would have made a terrible ruler who would brook no disagreement or criticism. His extravagant ways would have beggared the realm to a degree that not even Littlefinger would be capable of.
The whole point of Catelyn talking with him is to show that although he is popular on the surface, there isn't actually anything useful or real that he is good at. He is pretty to look at but not useful for much else, like Donnal Noye said. Renly was tall, strong, handsome and likable. But he had no great intellect, no skill in governance, no skill at war, no skill at finance. Nothing at all.
Imagine a king who has the power to command any man's loyalty, yet no ability to make things actually better, and a fragile ego besides. He would punish those who criticize his awful rule, but not make any meaningful improvements to anyone's life. So spare me your praise of this Copper King. Even Viserys III Targaryen would have made a better king.
I think your very wrong while I don't ultimately like or approve of Renly he shows political shrewdness that bleeds a little into the realm of warfare. Even Tyrion prior to the Renly's assassination claims that where he in Renly's shoes he would be doing much the same thing. Parading his strength attracting more followers by the display and letting his army encroach upon the capital at a rate that won't attrition his forces. Donal Noye is not infallible nor a clumsy mouth piece for the author he can be and is often wrong about other people. Renly maybe self centered, greedy and impetuous but he's not useless or stupid.
yeah u never read any of the books
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 I didn't say he's stupid, but other than being popular, he's not good at much. He had double Stannis' strength at Storm's End and just expected to rush him and win, against the best battle commander in Westeros, feared even by Tywin Lannister himself. There is also the fact that Stannis had a strategy prepared and intended to win Renly fair and square, he didn't consciously kill Renly, as you can read from when he recounts his dream of it to Davos. Even Randyll Tarly points out that this is Stannis Baratheon, you can't expect to win just because you have more soldiers. In the books it was 10 000 Renly's men vs. 5500 with Stannis. NOT impossible odds.
But that's beside the point. Noye's characterization is correct: Renly is attractive, but has no other significant skills in other areas, i.e. pretty to look at. And he is a narcissist, Look up his speech to Catelyn when he explains why he should be king.
@@lukemurphy3845 I'm just reading Clash of Kings this year. I don't know what you mean.
Renly is useless, he's not ideal, he's the worst of the brothers at everything, and he would have been a worse king than Aerys and Joffrey.
Unless you make an actual argument or post quotes where I am wrong I have no idea what you're talking about and you might as well post nothing, if you have nothing of substance to say.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 Except everything he shows suggests utter military incompetence. He raced off without supplies or infantry, forcing him to fight Stannis with all cavalry, and a deadline to beat his brother before his army starved. His battle plan consisted of a blind charge, in disadvantageous circumstances, against an enemy who had prepared the ground to their own advantage, under a seasoned veteran commander, who grew up in the area and knew it well and has had plenty of time to familiarize his army. Renly gave the key leadership position to a rash & inexperienced knight out of favoritism and he ignored all advice to the contrary. He treats his victory as a foregone conclusion, but Stannis is not stupid and also does not gamble, he plans things out, sees to all the details and makes preparations. There is no way he was just sitting there waiting to be crushed by Renly's knights.
i was your 1000th subscriber !
I just saw that! Thank you!!
RIP Renly you'll always be my king. If only GRRM ex machina did not strike you down.
5:00 was that on purpose to spite Show Stannis or… ?
Haha not particularly!
The whole show was written to spite Stannis. The only example you need is the fact that they made Stannis go hat in hand to the Iron Bank, when in the book they seek him out, as he is the only sane and stable bet in the realm, after Cersei went mad with power.
@@psevdhome 😂 DeD hated Stannis I'll tell ya
The idea that Renly would be a better king than Stannis is laughable. Renly was even more extravagant than Robert, but had none of his combat capability or strategic mind. He would have made an enemy of the Iron Bank with further debts and would have triggered a succession crisis what with him being a pillow biter and all. At least Stannis had Shireen and might have gotten a more fertile wife had Selyse died. Stannis would have been disliked by nobles who may have had to face fair justice and law for the first time in their lives, but that would inadvertently made Stannis well liked by the peasantry. Renly would have been as bad or worse than Robert in that regard and would be happy to look past bad behavior in exchange for support and favors. Only Joffrey and Cersei made worse monarchs than Renly. It is telling that Cersei, Littlefinger, Varys, and Tywin all feared Stannis above all else because of his strength and commitment to justice. No one feared Renly.
I mean Renly was a warrior. He fought well at tourneys and intended to be first of the vanguard in his battle against Stannis. Hes described as being a young Robert, he was a strong man.
@@atari947 Ser Jorah Mormont goes into detail about the stark difference between a tourney knight and actual warriors. And he wasn't in the vanguard I distinctly remember him claiming the right or left flank, not the center.
@DebtDoctor1 ah, right. i think Loras was to take the centre. That is a little rich coming from Jorah. A man whose life was defined by winning a tourney. Did he ever say what the name of his wife was? Anyhow, i think there is some correlation between tourneys and performance in a real war. Many of the great warriors did very well at tourneys. Even a fighter like Oberyn won in tourneys.
Stannis the fucking Mannis. I love Stannis but I do just want to add that Stannis is would no doubt become enemies with the Seven and he would probably have a Maegor v Church situation on his hand
@@atari947I have no doubt Renly was at least decent with a sword but we never get any indication that he was anywhere near as good or strategic at legit war like Tywin, Rhaegar, or Robert. I think when he's described as a young Robert it's in reference to how he looks not his personality or skills
Renly wouldn't of made a good king he was too people pleasing the Tyrells would of wanted more power lands etc margety being queen wouldnt of been enough for fhem
Renly is frustrating character because he could have won the Game of Thrones by just marching on Kings landing. Tywin and Robb were fighting in the west and Stannis was still on Dragonstone. There was nothing between him and Kings landing but a nice March down the kings road. And Renly would have been aware of how few fighting men Joffrey had to defend the city. Instead he waited around to see if enemies would destiny each other and Stannis had time to gather an army and sic a demon baby on him.
It's really just the demon baby tbh, all the stormlords were on renly's side and stannis' army was ~8000 at most, each day Renly was hosting tourneys and slowly going up the roseroad his army was getting bigger, stannis was stagnating, KL was starving and tywin and robb were weakening eachother in the riverlands.
No demon baby = stannis loses under storm's end, no way around it, you can be as brilliant of a general as you like, but 10 000 armored horse against half as many in leather is not a winnable battle.
Once he reaches the capital? Littlefinger has the goldcloaks and what are his options, 1. Try withstanding a siege and likely die since who is there to relieve it? or 2. Throw open the gates and pledge loyalty to Renly. Petyr would probably give priority to his own head over Joff and the rest's.
In my opinion, he was just too good at the game and had to be Deus ex machina'd by the only thing that could defeat him, straight sex.
On a meta-narrative level I see why, the pointlessness of war is a core theme of the story and if renly wins in 2 months it's not nearly as tragic.
He actually was marching on King's Landing though. The books say he was at Highgarden and then he was marching up the roseroad and when Catelyn goes to him, he is at Bitterbridge with his army.
Tyrion also says that Tywin can still attack Renly from the rear from Harrenhal which Tywin took as a base. “The city will not fall in a day. From Harrenhal it is a straight, swift march down the kingsroad. Renly will scarce have unlimbered his siege engines before father takes him in the rear. His host will be the hammer, the city walls the anvil. It makes a lovely picture.”
“I am informed that Renly Baratheon has marched from Highgarden. He is making his way up the roseroad, with all his strength behind him.”
So I don't know where this idea that he was sitting around and doing nothing comes from.
Tywin and Robb were not fighting each other. Robb had taken Riverrun and Tywin had Harrenhal. The Blackfish mentions that Tywin wants Robb to march on Harrenhal.
“More fool they. My first rule of war, Cat-never give the enemy his wish. Lord Tywin would like to fight on a field of his own choosing. He wants us to march on Harrenhal.”
It takes time to gather an army. It's not like a video game where you instantly move them on a map. So Renly was doing coming and he had already made his claim before Stannis did.
I don't think you can expect Reply to know that Stannis is using shadow magic. Nobody knew that.
Renly also expects the Cornish to join him after.
“I have twice that number here,” Renly said, “and this is only part of my strength. Mace Tyrell remains at Highgarden with another ten thousand, I have a strong garrison holding Storm’s End, and soon enough the Dornishmen will join me with all their power. And never forget my brother Stannis, who holds Dragonstone and commands the lords of the narrow sea.”
Varys backs this by telling Tyrion about The banners being called. This is why Tyrion plans to marry Myrcella to Trystane Martell and promise them justice and a seat on the council.
“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.”
Stannis tried getting allies but Davos was unable to get them as they don't like him. Stannis is told by Melisandre that she has seen Renly die and she also saw Renly defeat his forces at King's Landing so Stannis goes to siege Storm's End. This is important because Renly wouldn't have gone there if the siege didn't happen. So maybe your mixing it up with he TV show, as I don't remember there being a siege at Storm's End. This is important in the books because Edric Storm is there and Stan is wants him. It's still under siege after Renly dies.
The shadow baby thing would still happen regardless. Melisandre was able to use one on Telly without being smuggled in the book version. She had to be snuggled for the Storm's End one where it was used against Cortnay Penrose. That's because Storm's End has magic there, protecting it.
I have no doubt that she would be able to get one in King's Landing too, if she was able to get one in Storm's End.
Renly was already dead because Melisandre had seen his death. These "if, buts, what ifs" don't matter because he was already destined to die. Just as Stannis was destined to be defeated. The vision Melisandre saw of Renly defeating Stannis was not false but misinterpreted. You see, it was Renly's armour being worn by Garlan Tyrell who was known as Renly's ghost and they defeated Stannis at the battle of the blackwater.
The magic in the books is just a important. Many of the fans tend to forget that. Stannis was going to still use the magic and so long as he lives, he is a threat. Everyone knew that.
Here is Randyll Tarly mentioning not to ignore Stannis. “I say that Stannis is a danger to you,” Lord Randyll Tarly declared. “Leave him unblooded and he will only grow stronger, while your own power is diminished by battle. The Lannisters will not be beaten in a day. By the time you are done with them, Lord Stannis may be as strong as you … or stronger.”
Nobody was going to win the game of thrones as the real war was coming from beyond the wall. Then you still have dragons to deal with. This war of five kings was a distraction and was only leaving the realm less prepared.
you said several times he was loved by the common folk but never said why
In my opinion, Renly and Margaery would’ve made the best king and queen of the seven kingdoms
I Don't think so man. Catelyn chapters in A Clash of Kings are meant to show who Renly really was, not very unlike his brothers. He was vain and self absorbed, grasping for a crown when he already had a Kingdom(Storm's end and the Stormlands region as a while). Never satisfied, like a dog chasing a car(losing his parents definately had an impacto on him and his brothers). He's definately not a bad person, and has Intelligence and Carisma, but he needed more life experience and should've suported Stannis.
I do not agree the best King would have Stannis.
Renly does seem like an ideal choice on a surface level. He has a charm to him, charisma, and is a good politician with quick wits. He was aware that Robert's children were bastards way before the death of his brother. While he is likable among his lords and common folk, it has more to do with the Tyrell's influence over him.
However, I think his reign would bring chaos. He doesn't mind breaking tradition and usurping his brother Stannis and killing him, just so he can become king. This would influence other 2nd and 3rd sons of great houses to usurp their brothers or fathers simply because they can or have the support. When Lady Catelyn came to him with a proposal of an alliance and peace, he basically dismisses her as a minor annoyance and amusement. Then he intends of breaking their laws and traditions yet again by holding Catelyn as a hostage against Robb. It is a violation of guest right.
His offer to Ned Stark was pretty intelligent from a political perspective but it only benefited Renly... use Ned as pawn to usurp Joff's claim, leaving Ned to do the dirty work. Ned refused him because he was breaking tradition and laws of the kingdom.
When he accepts Brienne into his Rainbow guard, he breaks tradition yet again, allowing her to publicly humiliate herself in his constant service while he consistently mocks her and makes fun of her behind her back with his other lords. Her loyalty to him is misguided, it's an illusion that Renly himself created through seemingly doing a good deed by giving her what she wanted. His mocking her in private is giving viewers a glimpse of the type of man he actually is.
The Tyrell influence over him has a lot to do with the fact he is in love with Loras, and he's thinking with his dick instead of his brain. They are using him to gain power. The moment he is killed, they switch to the Lannister's instead of falling in line with Stannis because they could not gain power through the throne by proposing a marriage to him and instead married into the family they were marching to war against just months prior.
Which brings me to my last point. He's gay. There is nothing wrong with this fact but he is rumored to be incompetent entirely when it comes to women, which leaves the question on if he could even produce an heir. Without one, his death would bring chaos and conveniently leave house Tyrell sitting in possession of the throne.
In conclusion, Renly would have been better off being hand of the king, lord of the storm lands, and heir to Stannis if Stannis does not produce a son. His quest to become King would have brought more chaos with his own self interests and constant willingness to break traditions and laws set in place. His influence would lead others by example, and the example he is setting is quite dangerous.
@@vortexdaidade
He actually had 2 kingdoms. The Stormlands and the Reach.
@@capricornyearofthetiger ok ok that's Fair, I think either Daernerys or Stannis would make the best governors, and maybe give Faegon the benefit of the doubt, maybe🤔
He was best😮😮😮❤
or empty
Too good to be true? He stabbed his brother in the back. If he does he duty he is prince and heir and the realm is in good hands.
This video is mostly hollow noise. The vast majority of it is simply a summation of the events in the books, and a superficial one at that, with no real analysis.
Just the intro is full of nonsense. How is Renly the people's champion? How is he the most qualified? I also don't think Renly developed much a rapport with his bannermen, since so many of them were willing to meet with Stannis, even with Renly riding high after his coronation and Tyrell alliance. He does not have great burdens lying on him at any point. Yes, he is claiming a position of heavy responsibility, but he is able to smile and look unconcerned because he really is. We don't have any indication that he is actually taking any of the responsibilities seriously, or has any program of reform or governance in mind. His private tent suggests a man having a good time, not one campaigning to take a throne by force. The story often uses characters' homes as symbols of their nature or status at that moment, and while Storms End is technically Renly's it is used more as a symbol of the obdurate stubbornness of the Baratheons. It's Dragonstone that represents Stannis, and the closest equivalent for Renly is the tent Catelyn stays in, full of luxuries and toys, but also not sturdy or substantial. It's a recreational dwelling, not the basis of a kingdom. He's more at home at court than in a fortress, and that is another point against Renly.
Unlike many of the potential kings, we are introduced to Renly in a political setting, holding a position of power. If he was concerned about the good governance of the realm, Ned, who is favorably disposed to him due to family connections, is right there, looking for help. But the only reasons Renly approaches Ned is in pursuit of his own path to power. He votes along with Robert on the matter of assassinating Dany, but utterly fails to discern anything of Ned's character in the Hand's arguments and subsequent resignation, and so his pitch to Ned is tone-deaf and could not be better calculated to alienate him. Renly isn't even smart enough to pretend concern for the betterment of the nation, and his campaign reflects that as well. The Lannisters are the enemies he NEEDS to get rid of. The Starks are perfectly willing to let him have the Iron Throne, albeit not over them, even if they will never lift a hand to raise him over Stannis. Even Stannis taking the throne is preferable from Renly's PoV, because he is still next in line, and treacherous brothers have managed to hold out & regain royal favor in real life (the brothers of Richard I & Edward IV come most readily to mind). The only claimant Renly absolutely cannot let win is Joffrey/Tommen under Tywin, because they will need to get rid of Robert's brothers to protect their own claim. Yet, instead of going hard for Kings Landing to take the Iron Throne, Renly dawdles and assumes things will work out for him. He talks about avenging Ned to Catelyn, but that would only entail doing what he was going to do anyway - killing Joffrey & Cersei. When Ned could have used his help, he bailed, rather than let Stannis claim the throne. He is willing to let a usurper sit the Iron Throne and do who knows what damage to the realm, rather than exert himself to rectify the situation. Because all Renly ever cared about was Renly.
There is also not much evidence of people believing in Renly. The Tyrells have the Reach surprisingly firmly under their control. In prior civil wars, the Reach was divided, between the Blacks & Greens or Black Dragon & Red. Mace has his bannermen well in hand in Robert's Rebellion, despite the clear threat the Mad King posed to the nobility of the realm, and it is Mace they follow, in his quest to get a queen's crown for Margaery and the promise of a grandson sitting the Iron Throne. Renly is only drafting off this support through his marriage to Margaery, and they pivot smoothly to the Lannisters when Mace decides that's where his fortunes lie. As for his ghost drawing men away from Stannis, the western alliance was attacking Stannis' separated forces, with superior numbers, in a surprise flank attack. THAT is what decided the battle and "Renly's Ghost" just gave them an excuse to switch to the winning side to preserve their own lives and fortunes. No one is seriously in this for the memory of King Renly, not nearly to the degree Robert, Jon Arryn & the Starks all inspire loyalty even after their deaths. If anyone wept for Renly's death (besides Loras), it was out of fear for what the winner of the Iron Throne would do to them for supporting such an egregious traitor.
In response to this comment I do want to say a few things:
1. Thank you for such an in-depth response, there's a lot to think about here.
2. I suppose if I titled my videos "Character Lore & Analysis", they would be a bit more accurate, and that way clue in the audience to what they should really expect from these types of videos.
3. My plot summation has to be somewhat surface-level, otherwise the video would be way too long.
4. My analysis is focusing on one aspect of Renly, or at least how I interpreted him: a man who is adored by his subjects and possesses the perfect personality for court. Sure, there's more to kingship than that, but from a glance, he seems like he would be a great king, combining charm and experience. Do I personally think he would be the best king? No, but I wanted to examine why others may feel that way. Is that the only thing to think about with Renly's character? Obviously not. Like basically every other character in ASOIAF, he's way more complex than one video can encapsulate. Like with most of my other videos that focus on a single character, I wanted to delve into one aspect of Renly that I found distinctly interesting.
Hope that clarifies some things, and thanks again for watching!
@@ExploringFiction Okay, fair enough. I was drawn by "too good to be true" thinking that was the premise of the video, but the impression I got from the video itself was that his death was what was meant, that he was too good a king to survive for narrative reasons, instead of his image was too good and the man underneath was rotten.
That said, I do think the structure of the video would be a lot more interesting if you skipped all the background stuff, made the points about Renly, and cited only the plot details relevant to each point. That way, there would be more room in the video for your thoughts, instead of what we already got from the books.
@@Gunleaver Okay, thanks for your input! I'll definitely take that into consideration moving forward
@@Gunleaverhad never really considered the summation of Mace Tyrell, it's certainly in interesting point of view and something newk to consider finally
You nailed this one