Given the constantly changing nature of large capital ships even while under construction (as seen with examples like the North Carolina), just how likely would it be that USS United States would finish up as a more conventional carrier (much like how she appears in World of Warships) before she's even launched?
assuming that USS United States is either completed or quickly refited after a short period of time to a more conventional design, how long would her class's likely service life be? assuming it isn't cut short as a sacrificial lamb for a future Nuke boats like how some of the Essexs were.
Not trying to get you out of your comfort zone with the years that you cover, but What were some of the Post world war, two designs from countries like france, And the other Allied nations? Are you planning to cover any of them?
Can you tell us more about the time that HMS Unicorn bombarded ground targets in North Korea with her own guns? How close to shore was she, did the guns hit their targets, was she in danger of return fire?
@@randomnickify I never understood that argument. Most of the stuff that could "trigger" people has its origins in the "period that the channel covers", so having a hard cut off just seems arbitrary. If you can deal with Nazis you can deal with the cold war.
@@nedimar5696Well, the trouble is that Drac as an engineer likes to have the largest amount of data. Many things from the '50's are still classified ( yeah, I know it's stupid,but that's the way it is).
Ed Heinemann, the Douglas chief designer, insisted that the Skywarrior be light enough to operate from existing carriers, on the assumption that the USS US had a fair chance of never happening. Good thinking, Ed.
He did a great job of weight saving by looking at everything and seeing if it could be trimmed down. Then he thought to himself 'why not dial it up to 11' and went on to design the A4 Skyhawk.
@@petesheppard1709 That's interesting, thank you. I served on the Eisenhower. The Viggies were long gone. That was another plane that politics left behind. Sky warrior, the whale was still there. We moved it around. That big boy was about all our tow doll equipment can handle. Would have liked to moved a. Viggy. Phantoms came aboard and crusaders. Very cool ,but no viggies.
You know, I'm often upset that a lot of these NB ships were of course never built, but having watched this video, I can safey say thats not the case with this one. I'm amazed at how insane this design concept was.
Yeah especially the elevators in front of the "Wing Catapults"! If anything goes wrong, by the slightest degree, that is a major accident waiting to happen.
One of the principle officers in the Revolt of the Admirals was Captain John G “Uncle John” Crommelin. Who was Enterprise’s XO during the Guadalcanal Campaign.
So some resigned & the others were sacked. Never think your too big for your britches. Unless, of course, you actually can't fit them around your waste. And then you are just getting too fat!😮
including the part about SECDEF Johnson is great. People often don't realize how deep the SECDEF's impact can be. In 1965 the US Army was still trying to work its way out of some of the bad ideas of the 50s as were the Navy and Air Force.
And in the 1970s, the Army was trying to work its way out of all the bad ideas foisted on it and the other services (and the country) by R. Strange MacNamara in the 1960s, may he burn in everlasting hell. SECDEF can impact the country nearly as much as POTUS, but frequently works in the shadows without being recognized for the force for ill or good that he can be.
Not only was SecDef Johnson forced to resign after this ship was cancelled, but his handpicked SecNav John P. Matthews also resigned. The Admirals' Revolt sortof worked in the end. Bigger carriers were built and the Navy retained it's nuke capability. Another interesting tidbit.... When the USS United States was cancelled and the just-begun keel was ripped out of the drydock, it freed it up to build a new oceanliner, the SS United States! An interesting coincidence. 😅
Point of order: the AJ Savage was actually THREE-engined: it had an Allison J33 turbo jet in the rear fuselage as well as the Double Wasp radials on the wings.
@@John.0z The twin piston + jet version was the one that went into production and service. The twin turboprop version was cancelled after a single prototype was flown due to problems with the T-40 engines (which killed several other types too).
Yep, the fight of USN to get money after 1945 for nuclear weapon delivery was epic. Ultimately, miniaturization and solid fuel rocket engines produced the Polaris, and to this day, the Boomers are the quiet Doomsday machine within USN. Carriers project force in peacetime, but they are not needed in a nuclear war. I am very glad that Obama signed on to start the $ trillion modernization of the U.S. Strategic Nuclear forces, but with Michael Flynn, Trump, Mannafort, Jared Kushner, etc. on the payroll of Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, the greater adversary are these people who are on the payroll of countries opposed to America.
Amusingly enough, the country would have been better off if Truman had canceled both the plane and the carrier and given the money to the Army. Korea was just around the corner.
I've never heard this side of the popular CVA story. A full-length Revolt of the Admirals special would be much appreciated. Of course, the CVA was a horrifically inefficient means of delivering 24 low - performance aircraft, but hindsight is 20 : 20. SAC's alert bomber force, jet bombers, H-bombs, and Polaris were all a world away.
I have never understood how the B-36 was supposed to even get to anywhere important in the USSR. A target that big would have been intercepted somewhere over the wastes of the tundra, or maybe Manchuria.
@@John.0z The USAF didn't know the MiG was a thing yet, so they believed there wasn't any plane that could fly high and fast enough to catch it. When MiGs started showing up the B-36s were quickly grounded for combat operations.
@@cackleatrophy9307 I was wondering about the timing - and the MiG 15 had a significantly higher ceiling than the USAF fighters of the time, so talking to people like North American Aviation would not have given the correct numbers. I would still think that any crew getting in one would be wondering about the heavy AA guns... They were a big target!
@@John.0zThey really should have part of the Revolt of the Admirals was the Navy pointing to their own fighter programs which were capable of intercepting the B-36, and if we can, others can as well. The Air Force decided to take a page from pre-war Navy, and stick their finger in their ears and go "la la la la la la, tech that beats ours doesn't exist, la la la la la".
@@John.0z Consider the B-17. Much slower at its service ceiling, with far inferior protection, relative to the fighters of its time. And yet even unescorted in broad daylight, it never suffered a loss rate greater than 20% per sortie. The bombers did, in fact, always get through - never was a raid even close to being stopped on the way to its target. B-36s, by contrast, only had to fly one sortie per aircraft, because there were always more aircraft than bombs in that era. Both SAC and the ADC generally assumed assumed that attacking bombers would suffer an attrition rate of 30% per sortie. Moreover, the B-36 planned to go in at night - Soviet night fighters performed much worse than contemporary day fighters like the Mig 15, and the B-36 had the equipment to bomb accurately at night. Finally - crucially - the B-36s would jam the radars and most importantly the GCI radio links, because it had ample capacity for jammers. Without GCI, there was no way any fighters of the era - let alone what the PVO had available - could inflict serious losses at night. Finally, even if all of this were not true, the Navy's AJ Savage performed considerably worse than the B-36 in most respects - it was barely faster at its best altitude, with a lower service ceiling, far inferior payload, no defensive armament, little space for jammers, and far inferior range. And, most importantly of all, the cost of the carrier and its escorts meant that far fewer bombers could be afforded for a given price, which meant that fewer Navy bombers would get through even if the Navy's attrition rate was lower, because fewer bombers would be launched in the first place.
In retrospect, Johnson did the Navy a favor. The Forrestal class ended up being much more useful, those monster aircraft never arrived, and nukes got smaller. Funny how things work themselves out.
That’s an interesting thought. The first question is would the United States have been completed to her original design? United States was laid down in April of 49 and Forrestall in July 52. Obviously the Navy’s thinking changed a lot during that time. Friedman indicates that by 1950 it was clear small atomic bombs would be available and design work on the Forrestall class was underway. Thus I tend to think in light of all the changes in carrier aviation happening construction would have been suspended as events had overtaken her original design. I tend to think she would have ultimately been completed as sort of a prototype Forestall. The other question is what really saved and shaped Naval Aviation and that’s the Korean War. Korea showed the value of carriers and naval aviation and shaped the Navy’s move away from a carrier built for the A bomb mission to one suited to general purpose warfare.
@@jetdriver I was actually looking into it, and there was at least several different modifications to the design looked at before the project was scrapped.
@@jetdriver CVA-58 would probably be modified like CVA-59 was. As the CVA-59 was designed as a straight deck carrier. Also points for US Navy trolling as they named their first super carrier after a SECDEF that hated the Navy.
This is the bemused smile on my face as I listen to Drach discussing nuclear weapons, PV2 Neptunes, A-3 Skywarriors, F-111’s and Skyraiders. 😁 Great video! 👏👏👏
@@Its-Just-Zip I imagine the conversation at least wouldn't have involved anyone shooting at a block of Pykrete and almost hitting someone on the richoxhet, so I suppose it had a better inception than Habakkuk
@@Its-Just-Zip No, it wasnt ... I have no idea why some people have a strange obsession with Project Habakkuk and I can be nastly enough to say they must be overcompensating for the lack something. Project Habakkuk was a idea that people in the UK eventually realized it was impracticable because the steel alone required would be enough to build a entire fleet of carriers, also the USN did evaluated its feasibility and come pretty much to the same conclusion, the steel required for the refrigeration system could be used to build a entire fleet of carriers and there was no need for a floating island as landbased aircraft ranges have reach the point they were more that sufficient. Now to USS United States ... That ship was designed not to be a floating island, it was to be a conventional carrier with its large size being due to two things, that ever increasing aircraft weight were putting the Essex and even Midway class future in question and so this is were its initial design come from. the other reason that it would need to carry long range aircraft with a nuclear payload since this was 1948, tactical nuclear weapons were still very heavy and the truth is they didnt really had any available plane capable of doing that yet but the soon to enter service AJ-1 Savage was capable of doing so but only on the Midway class and later the Modernized Essex (and of course, the Forrestals) due to its size. The new carrier simply had to be very big since the days of Hellcats were long over, jet aircraft were too heavy and would continue to increase in weight. The United States class was mostly a logical progression of aircraft carriers by the USN despite some questionable decisions that we can understand since it was a progression of the Midway, by 1948 the USN knew the Midways wouldnt be able to handle newer jet aircraft, this is why the Forrestal class development come almost immediate after the United States class cancellation, the reason why the United States class was both authorized and cancelled was interservice politics, post-WWII and pre-Korean War the prevailing idea was that conventional wars were over so the need for conventional forces was also over, this leads to the Navy finding itself in a rather uncomfortable spot as they couldnt deliver nuclear weapons at the time, this was a attempt to keep then relevant instead of having all their capital ships being scrapped and be related to coastal service and they had plently of reasons to think that considering the Secretary of Defense L. A. Johnson seem to be rather keen on budgetary cutbacks ... then the Korea War started and apparently they come to the realization throwing nukes like candy in the Korea Peninsula would be a tad bit extreme (and political suicide, isnt that right General MacArthur), the United States class would allow the USN to remain relevant within the "Nuclear Deterrence" as well still provide the USN with air support.
Having read the Wikipedia article on the Revolt of the Admirals, I regret that I have only one upvote to give this comment. We need the Drach treatment!
Drach old boy, dont give World of Warships any ideas now. On second thought, they NEED to hire you. You would bring much needed sanity to some of their ship designs. Good stuff as always.
Drach, can you make a video about the Revolt of the Admirals? That's a very interesting subject to talk about... Specialty due to the hate of President Truman and the Secretary of the Navy Johnson for the Marines Corps and also how they wanted to favor the US Air Force, as also the connections of the Sec. Of the Navy Johnson with the US Air Force long range bombers projects...
Fun fact. One of the principle officers in the Revolt of the Admirals was Captain John G “Uncle John” Crommelin. Who was Enterprise’s XO during the Guadalcanal Campaign.
A ship to review... the "Active" class of Coast Guard cutters. Built in 1926-27, they are now the oldest surviving military vessels in the country that were powered by internal combustion engines. Also known as the "buck and a quarter" fleet, these plucky little 125-foot cutters were originally designated WPC (Whiskey Patrol Cutter). There's precious few of them still existing, with only two in preservation and another being attempted to get into preservation before it goes to scrap. One additional ship, the Bonham (aka Polar Star), is sunk in shallow water in Oregon and is rusted through so badly that she's a total loss. I'd really enjoy seeing what you come up with for these little ships!
Dealing with CV-58 alone misses the huge costs the USN was ready to accept to operate a carrier of this type. For example, the primary radars and combat direction center would be off-loaded to a supporting ship, in this case the Northampton rebuilt as a command ship or the Hawaii, stripped down and then rebuilt as such. The CV-58 design would also have required a minimum of four large escorts with the then advanced armament of the 5" Mk.42 and 3" Mk.32 (IIRC) DP and AA gun mounts and with AD missiles. Then there was the air group, with a 70,000lb or 100,000lb nuclear bomber carrying 12-20,000 lb nuclear bombs. Using a modified P2V or even the AJ Savage wasn't acceptable given the probable Soviet AD including jet aircraft such as the MiG-15. There was neither in service or even within the timeframe of the completion of the carrier of such a bomber being available, the A3D Skywarrior not entering service before 1957. CV-58 would have been a "white elephant" had she actually been completed as designed and in the timeframe expected by the USN, ie. 1953. By 1953-54, the USN had had a chance to review three British inventions which made the operation of high-performance jet aircraft by an aircraft carrier more effective. These were the steam catapult, the angled deck and the mirror landing assistance device. If historical projections had been followed, the USN would have faced the prospect of a very expensive rebuild of CV-58 to add these features, which also would have allowed an island with stack and radar masts. The rebuild would have had to redesign the ordnance and fuel storage, as a conventional carrier would be operating AD Skyraiders and would need to put AVGAS tanks behind armor. The continuing reduction of the size of nuclear weapons such that A4D Skyhawks or AD Skyraiders could now deliver nuclear weapons as tactical devices, which would require a revision of the flight deck and hanger as the 100,000lbs bomber would not be needed, and the 70,000lbs bomber, the A3D and the A2J would be sufficient to deliver nuclear weapons as a strategic asset against the Soviet Union. Of course, the rise of the Poseidon program diminished the need for carriers as strategic weapons delivery platforms. Despite the increased awareness of the threat of the Soviet Union under Stalin, Truman continued to seek to suppress government spending while funding his social programs. That's where the funding crisis came unexpectedly, due to a recession in FY1949. Truman had to cut, and he targeted the defense budget for $4M. Conventional forces took the worst of the cuts. The USN was reduced to one carrier battle group in the Pacific, Atlantic and Mediterranean. The Army was really damaged, such that it had a single combat ready division in FY1950. Much of the rest of the Army was fully dedicated to training and throughput of draftees with the return to a peacetime draft. The only capability that wasn't cut was the USAF and SAC, as the US continued to rely on its possession of the atomic bomb, a strategic decision that failed when the Soviets exploded their own bomb in 1949 and demonstrated the swept wing fighters, including the MiG-15 that same year when the USAF was still relying on modified B-29s as its primary delivery system. The US had already decided on the defense cuts before these events occurred. It took the Korean Conflict to force reconsideration of other US strategic assumptions, which included the capabilities of the carrier and its escorts. There is one other impact of the CV-58 design. The trouble encountered with designing any effective method of dealing with exhaust from the fuel fired boilers helped push the design, development and fielding of nuclear propulsion, which, of course, eliminated the need for stacks and such.
I have some vague memory that the idea was to put all the things normally on an island onto an escort ship, probably of cruiser size. Running flying operations that way would not be a great solution, but probably better than trying to do so from the galleries. Conning the huge ship in harbour would be even more of a problem.
The idea was for a separate Radar Ship to accompany the Carrier Battle Group, as well as aircraft carrying warning radar covering the CBG. And at leadt one standard CVA carrying fighters to defend the CBG, while the supercarrier carried the bombers and escort fighters.
"This is going to be the first Nuclear Jet Age carrier. All of the old, useless fixtures must be removed to make way for the modern and relevant." "Okay, then why did you also insist on a massive 1930s-style secondary battery? Planning on fighting off a swarm of torpedo boats?" "....GO NAVY BEAT ARMY"
@@Rutherford_Inchworm_III Given that the thing didn't have an island I'm a little curious what they planned to do for fire direction, but in all honesty such a battery would probably have been useful against small boat attacks. Y'know, on the off chance something this massive would even notice such an attack. Nuclear small boat attacks?
@@PhysicsGamer As I've said elsewhere, given the two alternatives (neither of which would have lasted out the 50s) Truman should have simply given the money to the Army to train more divisions. Would have saved a lot of lives in Korea. Truman honestly was not a great CinC.
One of the most influential ship designs in the XX century and the only dream gigantic ship designed around the 1940s that spawned dozens of descendants (despite being never built), not to mention being the canon of the modern carrier to these days (for the few navies who can afford working supercarriers... all others have been at best toying with harrier-carriers for decades, or should have). Thanks for the much appreciated video.
@@Zoinksmeboi correct, my point exactly, and at least another two (navies) with pocket deep enough to attempt to create something similar to a supercarrier ending up with less than they paid for.
USS Forestal: We always called her "USS Zippo", due to her seeming ability to catch fire, anywhere, anytime, for no reason at all. We were always nervous when we moored at the same pier. When we close down the bars and head back for the night, will we still have a home to go to?
Please consider videos on the evolution of additional ship engineering systems such as ventilation, fire fighting, food storage and preparation etc. Thanks
Yeah WoW version the USS United States is really would probably have ended up as since the British Empire Royal Navy and the United States Navy experiment with the angled deck would have been filtered into the design
Very enjoyable, Drach! Since their laying down barely makes it just before 1950, I wonder if you will look at the United States Navy's destroyer leaders, the one off Norfolk (DL-1) and the Mitscher class (DL-2 through -5). By the way, somewhere in my fuzzy reading past I seem to recall that Johnson had some conflicts of interest with Convair, the maker of the B-36. This resulted not just in the cancelation of the United States but also in the termination of the Northrop flying wings XB-35 and YB-49.
At least a part of the problem for the flying wings was their thickness to chord being selected for the B-35, which was not all that fast, being a WW2 piston engine design. The B-49 was a minimal change to move the B-35s that were being built to jets. But that left the thick wing, which limited it's speed, yet was also needed for the fuel and payload.... plus structure and people I suppose. 🤔 They are handy to have in a plane. The longitudinal stability was a bombing problem too - the B-49 was not _unstable,_ but it was not completely stable either - it would slowly oscillate a few degrees. That was enough to make bomb aiming inaccurate. It needed active flight controls to settle down, but that technology was decades away.
@@John.0z The yaw was quite a problem for the Wings. Especially when they went to jets as Northrop planned on using the propellers and their shaft housings on the XB-35 for yaw control. But it was nearly unmanageable with the jets, and it's what killed Captain Glen Edwards and his flight test crew . it's interesting to note that a computer the size of a desktop today would have probably solved all the stability problems. But back in the late 40s you would have had to have something size of a Sperry Univac, and I don't think the YB-49 could have swallowed one.
@@dennisnichols2411 Thank you. No matter how much I read about most things to do with technology, I find there is always more to learn. BTW, the performance of the processors inside modern phones would be much more computing power than that stability and control task requires. My tower would out-perform even the Cray 2 series. I started in mainframes, and some modern microcontrollers have about the same performance. Not the same I/O though.
All of this so the Admirals could have a piece of the Pentomic pie, can't let the Air Force and Army get all the money and goodies! Nothing to do with practical considerations and winning a war. The MIC that Eisenhower warned about! Drach, how do you produce so much quality content? Can't thank you enough!
2:35 Can we take a moment and appreciate how terrifying 100 nukes crammed onto a ship is? I know nuclear submarines carry a similar amount of weapons, but still
I find it funny that they couldn't conceptualize that miniaturization was going to be a thing even for nuclear warheads, and were to the point of laying down ships that would have been grossly oversized for what ended up being put into practice by the 1950's
Eh, Drach has this a bit backwards. Its not that larger aircraft were never developed and therefore the larger carrier was superfluous. Its that a larger carrier was not developed and therefore larger aircraft were superfluous. The F-111 was not a viable carrier plane due to its handling requirements, and a larger flight deck would alleviate that. With sufficient space and strong enough deck you could expect to see a navalized version of the B-1, for example. This is inconceivable with current carrier design because it took the path of supporting tactical aircraft instead of strategic.
No. In 1945, a 20kt nuclear bomb was 10,000 lbs. Even in 1952 Korean War, no one could imagine Lawrence Livermore Labs could come up with a 200kt warhead that weight about 400 lbs. Up to then, the Navy fought for money to deliver nuclear weapons. Korea was the impetus to build carriers to carry high speed and larger jets. Polaris finally gave the Navy the same standing as the USAF in the nuclear game. In the book Tomcat/Eagle, the Israeli author described the USAF as a collection of varying aircraft with the single purpose of delivering or launching a nuclear warhead. In the skies over North Vietnamese, both the USN and USAF rediscovered the need for dogfighting that resulted in the F-15 and adopting the F-14 to ACM via Topgun as the F-14 wasn’t specifically designed for agile combat.
Subs became the primary Navy component for strategic deterrence, but the size of nuclear weapons dropped rapidly enough that before long even aircraft as small as the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk could carry them.
@@Axel0204 but, as he said, ultimately those were abandoned leaving the subs. Nukes on carriers were dropped to allow carriers wider geopolitical room to maneuver in.
Louis A Johnson was Truman's chief fundraiser for the 1948 campaign and actively lobbied for SecDef position. which he got after Truman forced out James V Forrestal. well deserved retribution for Forrestal to have a class of CV's named for him.
Quite. While Drach ended this video off with him being anti-USN, he screwed over all parts of the US armed forces in general due to heavy budget cuts. A responsibility partially borne by Truman as well.
@@charliedontsurf334lets give him a credit where he deserved. He at least managed to fix that interservice rivalry between branches, maybe not totally but at least standardized nomenclature, cancelled out all those insane projects that each branch was trying to make.
I whoud aboslotly love a video about the Hannover as its name is in world of war ships I think it’s class was H-45 ENORMOUS SHIP but I am not a historian and I can not find mutch videos let alone sorces for it
Boosted fission nukes made them far smaller and efficient, meaning that far smaller attack aircraft would be needed, making USS United States unnecessary.
The USN didn't entirely give up on the idea of using carrier based aircraft to deliver nuclear weapons, until well after the Polaris SSBN program was already well established. Note the A-5 Vigilante supersonic bomber, which was developed in the 50's, and entered service in 1961, developed specifically for the nuclear attack role. In 1963, two years later, with the Polaris program proving a success, the A-5 was converted to the fast recon role, with several squadrons entering service. They continued in this role for a decade, starting to be phased out in 1974, with the final retirement coming in 1979. One unique feature was it's bomb bay design. Basically a long tube, which ejected the bomb straight out the back between the engines, which allowed the aircraft to make high speed attack runs and maintain said speed to exit the target area posthaste after delivering the weapon.
Ah yes, the Revolt of the Admirals was the reason this ship was cancelled, when the Truman administration wanted to use the Air Force's B-36 bombers as main nuclear deterrent and the interservice rivalry between USAF and USN, when you're thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry. I know it's a lot of politics behind it all, but well the reason for the CVA-58 cancellation was obviously mainly politics.
You are also forgetting about US army also trying to get funding for thier nuclear delivery devices. Just by sheer amount of diffrent jet fighters between Navy and Airforce would make any manager head spinning. Thank god for McNamara, if there arent for him, who know what kind of insanity those branches would came up with.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry. What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes? I’m talking hit squads and car bombs. Either you’re lying or you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry. What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes? I’m talking hit squads and car b*mbs. Either you’re lying or you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry. What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes?
The cancellation was beneficial in hindsight. With steam catapults, angle deck and flight deck sponsors only a few years later, CVA-58 would have been a bigger Midway class that required modernization. The 1966-70 modernization of 20-year old Midway was $200 million when the JFK was built for $293 million, and Midway couldn’t conduct flight operations in rough seas due to heavy rolling (see TH-cam on this including ramp strikes killing the pilots). Today, a Ford class carrier costs $12 billion.
Makes me wonder if a completely flat topped carrier would be workable in the modern era if you wanted to build say, a "stealth" carrier (Zumwalt style). A lower profiled ship that operated drones perhaps.
Nah. You'd still need lots of sticky-up bits for radars, comms etc, so it wouldn't offer any real advantages. Not unless you placed all the electronics measures in stealth drones permanently circling above.
Done forget that you have to maintain a sea worthy vessel? There are plenty of very big waves rolling around the oceans of the world! You can't let consideration of any one particular issue or technology override the need to have a sea worthy vessel.
I wondered about the story of the S. S. United States, that was used to transport troops during WW2 and is docked in Philadelphia, PA, with some unknown fate as the city wants the ship out of the area.
The Liner SS United States was designed and built by Newport News Shipbuilding but was not laid down until 1950 so she wasn't even a gleam in some designer's eye during WWII. While intended to serve as a troop transport in wartime she never served in that role. That said, she is a gem that I would hate to see "reefed" or hauled to a scrapyard. I would like to see her restored at least cosmetically though after this much time even that would be incredibly expensive.
My biggest wonder about this whole episode was the short-sightedness of assuming atomic bombs would never get smaller. Surely they were already working on smaller designs by the end of the war. I can only guess it was too secret to let anybody else know. But by 1948-49-50? Somebody must have had an inkling by then 5 years after the first ones.
Yeah, on one hand, during Operation Crossroads USAAF horribly missed a stationary battleship that was painted pink or orange (I've read the USS Arkansas was painted pink and then same story but orange) AND they still missed the ship by a half mile. I'm sure that the Navy could do better but hey, imo, the less people dealing with nuclear weapons the better. And who knows, maybe the Air Force will learn how to hit the broad side of a barn with a little practice. Ok, A LOT of practice! But the strategic use of nukes would eventually be married with large nuclear submarines with major missille batteries and able to deliver numerous nuclear war heads from under the seas. As a nuclear deterant it is a very strategic weapon.
LIke the RAF TSR.2, the USS _United States_ would be too limited in functionality for its cost. Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and the vastly more versatile _Forrestal_ class carrier was built in its place from the middle 1950's on. Indeed, USS _Forrestal_ set the standard for the modern supercarrier that has been carried on to the _Gerald R. Ford_ class of carriers.
![[Live] : ONE 169 วันนี้!! "อนาโตลี vs อูมาร์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IK3YZVWuFJg/mqdefault.jpg)
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Given the constantly changing nature of large capital ships even while under construction (as seen with examples like the North Carolina), just how likely would it be that USS United States would finish up as a more conventional carrier (much like how she appears in World of Warships) before she's even launched?
assuming that USS United States is either completed or quickly refited after a short period of time to a more conventional design, how long would her class's likely service life be? assuming it isn't cut short as a sacrificial lamb for a future Nuke boats like how some of the Essexs were.
Not trying to get you out of your comfort zone with the years that you cover, but What were some of the Post world war, two designs from countries like france, And the other Allied nations? Are you planning to cover any of them?
Can you tell us more about the time that HMS Unicorn bombarded ground targets in North Korea with her own guns? How close to shore was she, did the guns hit their targets, was she in danger of return fire?
What ships look like they where designed on a fever dream?
Drach focusing on something newer than VJ day 1945? A rare treat! ;D
Well, he did explain why he is focusing on older stuff - fewer triggers for angry people :)
Still before his 1950 cutoff.
@@randomnickify I never understood that argument. Most of the stuff that could "trigger" people has its origins in the "period that the channel covers", so having a hard cut off just seems arbitrary. If you can deal with Nazis you can deal with the cold war.
@@nedimar5696Well, the trouble is that Drac as an engineer likes to have the largest amount of data.
Many things from the '50's are still classified ( yeah, I know it's stupid,but that's the way it is).
@@JefferyP.IndorfStupid is a bad word choice....
Revolt of the Admirals is hereby reserved as the name of my future thrash metal band.
Awww, you beat me to it
Manley Power and the Revolt of the Admirals
(could also be a 1930s sci-fi serial)
@@Julius_Hardware Manley Power could be a time traveler, when asked for his name he said "additional man power":
@@Julius_Hardwarealas Manley Powers was a British officer and the Revolt of the Admirals occurred in the US navy.
@@rebeccaorman1823 That's why he wasn't in the band
Ed Heinemann, the Douglas chief designer, insisted that the Skywarrior be light enough to operate from existing carriers, on the assumption that the USS US had a fair chance of never happening. Good thinking, Ed.
He did a great job of weight saving by looking at everything and seeing if it could be trimmed down. Then he thought to himself 'why not dial it up to 11' and went on to design the A4 Skyhawk.
The Skywarrior did operate off of _Essex_-class carriers. 😲
@@petesheppard1709 Cool 😎. how about the Viggis?
@@paulwoodman5131 Nope; they were too hot and only flew from the really big decks.
@@petesheppard1709 That's interesting, thank you. I served on the Eisenhower. The Viggies were long gone. That was another plane that politics left behind. Sky warrior, the whale was still there. We moved it around. That big boy was about all our tow doll equipment can handle. Would have liked to moved a. Viggy. Phantoms came aboard and crusaders. Very cool ,but no viggies.
You know, I'm often upset that a lot of these NB ships were of course never built, but having watched this video, I can safey say thats not the case with this one. I'm amazed at how insane this design concept was.
Yeah, I finally have a better understanding of what was going on. It was really designed to do one thing, and would not have done it all that well.
Yeah especially the elevators in front of the "Wing Catapults"!
If anything goes wrong, by the slightest degree, that is a major accident waiting to happen.
Long-range land-based aircraft were the obvious choice, at least until missile technology reached sufficient development.
"Of course our Jet Age Nuclear Supercarrier needs a full 1930s-style secondary battery. What kind of a nancy asks a question like that?"
I long wondered why hull number 58, got skipped. Great info! My ship was USS Ranger CV-61. Fair winds and following seas!
One of the principle officers in the Revolt of the Admirals was Captain John G “Uncle John” Crommelin. Who was Enterprise’s XO during the Guadalcanal Campaign.
He was sacked afterwards if I recall correctly?
@@laggerstudios3392 He was
So were the Admirals' Gallery, one of whom had captured a U - Boat...
So some resigned & the others were sacked. Never think your too big for your britches. Unless, of course, you actually can't fit them around your waste. And then you are just getting too fat!😮
including the part about SECDEF Johnson is great. People often don't realize how deep the SECDEF's impact can be. In 1965 the US Army was still trying to work its way out of some of the bad ideas of the 50s as were the Navy and Air Force.
And in the 1970s, the Army was trying to work its way out of all the bad ideas foisted on it and the other services (and the country) by R. Strange MacNamara in the 1960s, may he burn in everlasting hell. SECDEF can impact the country nearly as much as POTUS, but frequently works in the shadows without being recognized for the force for ill or good that he can be.
Not only was SecDef Johnson forced to resign after this ship was cancelled, but his handpicked SecNav John P. Matthews also resigned. The Admirals' Revolt sortof worked in the end. Bigger carriers were built and the Navy retained it's nuke capability.
Another interesting tidbit.... When the USS United States was cancelled and the just-begun keel was ripped out of the drydock, it freed it up to build a new oceanliner, the SS United States! An interesting coincidence. 😅
And What happened to the Man there before him? They named a Warship after him. This may have been in dissertation but I don't read those.
Johnson Ole Mizzorha Crony of Mr Truman.
And now the SS United States has been given up on and will be intentionally submerged near Pensacola…
That RATO take off picture is amazing! I’m sure there wasn’t a dry eye on deck
Point of order: the AJ Savage was actually THREE-engined: it had an Allison J33 turbo jet in the rear fuselage as well as the Double Wasp radials on the wings.
I thought that was only the piston-engined prototype? The turbine version was quite different.
@@John.0z The twin piston + jet version was the one that went into production and service. The twin turboprop version was cancelled after a single prototype was flown due to problems with the T-40 engines (which killed several other types too).
@@MrHws5mp I stand corrected. The inevitable result of the passing years. 🥴
@@John.0z I stand corrected too - the inevitable result of special insoles...😉
It’d be fun seeing 1 USS America vs 10 Habakkuks
The latter could probably field B36 bombers.
Probable comes down to whoever's nuclear bombers were faster.
Habbakuks? Is that what the lefties are calling them now
FYI USS America was a real ship of the Kitty Hawk class.
"The [Soviets] are the opposition. The enemy is the US Navy."
-- Curtis Lemay, USAF
Yep, the fight of USN to get money after 1945 for nuclear weapon delivery was epic. Ultimately, miniaturization and solid fuel rocket engines produced the Polaris, and to this day, the Boomers are the quiet Doomsday machine within USN. Carriers project force in peacetime, but they are not needed in a nuclear war. I am very glad that Obama signed on to start the $ trillion modernization of the U.S. Strategic Nuclear forces, but with Michael Flynn, Trump, Mannafort, Jared Kushner, etc. on the payroll of Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, the greater adversary are these people who are on the payroll of countries opposed to America.
Amusingly enough, the country would have been better off if Truman had canceled both the plane and the carrier and given the money to the Army. Korea was just around the corner.
@@Rutherford_Inchworm_III Who would have provided air support?
@@inyobill That's called a "non-sequitur". +1'ing yourself was the chef's kiss.
The navy carriers could do it the b 36 was useless in korea
I've never heard this side of the popular CVA story. A full-length Revolt of the Admirals special would be much appreciated. Of course, the CVA was a horrifically inefficient means of delivering 24 low - performance aircraft, but hindsight is 20 : 20. SAC's alert bomber force, jet bombers, H-bombs, and Polaris were all a world away.
I have never understood how the B-36 was supposed to even get to anywhere important in the USSR. A target that big would have been intercepted somewhere over the wastes of the tundra, or maybe Manchuria.
@@John.0z The USAF didn't know the MiG was a thing yet, so they believed there wasn't any plane that could fly high and fast enough to catch it. When MiGs started showing up the B-36s were quickly grounded for combat operations.
@@cackleatrophy9307 I was wondering about the timing - and the MiG 15 had a significantly higher ceiling than the USAF fighters of the time, so talking to people like North American Aviation would not have given the correct numbers.
I would still think that any crew getting in one would be wondering about the heavy AA guns... They were a big target!
@@John.0zThey really should have part of the Revolt of the Admirals was the Navy pointing to their own fighter programs which were capable of intercepting the B-36, and if we can, others can as well. The Air Force decided to take a page from pre-war Navy, and stick their finger in their ears and go "la la la la la la, tech that beats ours doesn't exist, la la la la la".
@@John.0z Consider the B-17. Much slower at its service ceiling, with far inferior protection, relative to the fighters of its time. And yet even unescorted in broad daylight, it never suffered a loss rate greater than 20% per sortie. The bombers did, in fact, always get through - never was a raid even close to being stopped on the way to its target. B-36s, by contrast, only had to fly one sortie per aircraft, because there were always more aircraft than bombs in that era. Both SAC and the ADC generally assumed assumed that attacking bombers would suffer an attrition rate of 30% per sortie.
Moreover, the B-36 planned to go in at night - Soviet night fighters performed much worse than contemporary day fighters like the Mig 15, and the B-36 had the equipment to bomb accurately at night. Finally - crucially - the B-36s would jam the radars and most importantly the GCI radio links, because it had ample capacity for jammers. Without GCI, there was no way any fighters of the era - let alone what the PVO had available - could inflict serious losses at night.
Finally, even if all of this were not true, the Navy's AJ Savage performed considerably worse than the B-36 in most respects - it was barely faster at its best altitude, with a lower service ceiling, far inferior payload, no defensive armament, little space for jammers, and far inferior range. And, most importantly of all, the cost of the carrier and its escorts meant that far fewer bombers could be afforded for a given price, which meant that fewer Navy bombers would get through even if the Navy's attrition rate was lower, because fewer bombers would be launched in the first place.
In retrospect, Johnson did the Navy a favor. The Forrestal class ended up being much more useful, those monster aircraft never arrived, and nukes got smaller. Funny how things work themselves out.
I mean, in all likelyhood the USS United States would not have launched with this particular design.
That’s an interesting thought. The first question is would the United States have been completed to her original design? United States was laid down in April of 49 and Forrestall in July 52. Obviously the Navy’s thinking changed a lot during that time. Friedman indicates that by 1950 it was clear small atomic bombs would be available and design work on the Forrestall class was underway.
Thus I tend to think in light of all the changes in carrier aviation happening construction would have been suspended as events had overtaken her original design. I tend to think she would have ultimately been completed as sort of a prototype Forestall.
The other question is what really saved and shaped Naval Aviation and that’s the Korean War. Korea showed the value of carriers and naval aviation and shaped the Navy’s move away from a carrier built for the A bomb mission to one suited to general purpose warfare.
@@jetdriver I was actually looking into it, and there was at least several different modifications to the design looked at before the project was scrapped.
@@jetdriver CVA-58 would probably be modified like CVA-59 was. As the CVA-59 was designed as a straight deck carrier. Also points for US Navy trolling as they named their first super carrier after a SECDEF that hated the Navy.
The bigger favor is that it led to Hyman Rickover and Polaris.
This is the bemused smile on my face as I listen to Drach discussing nuclear weapons, PV2 Neptunes, A-3 Skywarriors, F-111’s and Skyraiders. 😁
Great video! 👏👏👏
US Navy: "Yeah, we are thinking about putting bombers on a 1000 ft carrier"
Royal Navy: *Laughs in HMS Habakkuk*
This was a lot like the US Navy looking at that plan and deciding they wanted to make it practical.
@@Its-Just-Zip I imagine the conversation at least wouldn't have involved anyone shooting at a block of Pykrete and almost hitting someone on the richoxhet, so I suppose it had a better inception than Habakkuk
@@Its-Just-Zip No, it wasnt ... I have no idea why some people have a strange obsession with Project Habakkuk and I can be nastly enough to say they must be overcompensating for the lack something.
Project Habakkuk was a idea that people in the UK eventually realized it was impracticable because the steel alone required would be enough to build a entire fleet of carriers, also the USN did evaluated its feasibility and come pretty much to the same conclusion, the steel required for the refrigeration system could be used to build a entire fleet of carriers and there was no need for a floating island as landbased aircraft ranges have reach the point they were more that sufficient.
Now to USS United States ...
That ship was designed not to be a floating island, it was to be a conventional carrier with its large size being due to two things, that ever increasing aircraft weight were putting the Essex and even Midway class future in question and so this is were its initial design come from. the other reason that it would need to carry long range aircraft with a nuclear payload since this was 1948, tactical nuclear weapons were still very heavy and the truth is they didnt really had any available plane capable of doing that yet but the soon to enter service AJ-1 Savage was capable of doing so but only on the Midway class and later the Modernized Essex (and of course, the Forrestals) due to its size. The new carrier simply had to be very big since the days of Hellcats were long over, jet aircraft were too heavy and would continue to increase in weight.
The United States class was mostly a logical progression of aircraft carriers by the USN despite some questionable decisions that we can understand since it was a progression of the Midway, by 1948 the USN knew the Midways wouldnt be able to handle newer jet aircraft, this is why the Forrestal class development come almost immediate after the United States class cancellation, the reason why the United States class was both authorized and cancelled was interservice politics, post-WWII and pre-Korean War the prevailing idea was that conventional wars were over so the need for conventional forces was also over, this leads to the Navy finding itself in a rather uncomfortable spot as they couldnt deliver nuclear weapons at the time, this was a attempt to keep then relevant instead of having all their capital ships being scrapped and be related to coastal service and they had plently of reasons to think that considering the Secretary of Defense L. A. Johnson seem to be rather keen on budgetary cutbacks ... then the Korea War started and apparently they come to the realization throwing nukes like candy in the Korea Peninsula would be a tad bit extreme (and political suicide, isnt that right General MacArthur), the United States class would allow the USN to remain relevant within the "Nuclear Deterrence" as well still provide the USN with air support.
Enterprise cvn 65 1123ft aft refit, nimitz class 1092 ft (class general), the usn nearly got carriers as big.
We need a dedicated episode on Louis Johnson and his stupidity and the resulting Revolt of the Admirals
That's probably a little bit out of the scope of the channel? But the Truman administration had a lot of bad ideas. That was just one of them.
Having read the Wikipedia article on the Revolt of the Admirals, I regret that I have only one upvote to give this comment. We need the Drach treatment!
@@lauraainslie6725 James Hornfischer in his last book "Who can hold the sea" covers it pretty well but there's more detail out there
Even Truman admitted that having Johnson was a mistake.
Ah yes, the Navy's Ultimate Carrier Schizo post
Drach old boy, dont give World of Warships any ideas now. On second thought, they NEED to hire you. You would bring much needed sanity to some of their ship designs. Good stuff as always.
Drach, can you make a video about the Revolt of the Admirals? That's a very interesting subject to talk about... Specialty due to the hate of President Truman and the Secretary of the Navy Johnson for the Marines Corps and also how they wanted to favor the US Air Force, as also the connections of the Sec. Of the Navy Johnson with the US Air Force long range bombers projects...
Fun fact. One of the principle officers in the Revolt of the Admirals was Captain John G “Uncle John” Crommelin. Who was Enterprise’s XO during the Guadalcanal Campaign.
@@ph89787 I think that even Admiral Kincaid was part of it
@@Yamato-tp2kf as well as Admiral Halsey and Admiral Spruance
@@ph89787 yep, just confirmed on Wikipedia
Wasn't Adm Gallery involved too? If you've never read any of his books, do yourself a favor. The man had a gift for humor that Mark Twain would envy.
Drach, what a nice a simple summary of post-WW2 US aircraft carrier plans.
A ship to review... the "Active" class of Coast Guard cutters. Built in 1926-27, they are now the oldest surviving military vessels in the country that were powered by internal combustion engines. Also known as the "buck and a quarter" fleet, these plucky little 125-foot cutters were originally designated WPC (Whiskey Patrol Cutter). There's precious few of them still existing, with only two in preservation and another being attempted to get into preservation before it goes to scrap. One additional ship, the Bonham (aka Polar Star), is sunk in shallow water in Oregon and is rusted through so badly that she's a total loss.
I'd really enjoy seeing what you come up with for these little ships!
I was in her belly ‘78-‘82. I will never forget her scream launching aircraft in 3MMR. To watch her boiler casings flex was the stuff of nightmares.
Dealing with CV-58 alone misses the huge costs the USN was ready to accept to operate a carrier of this type. For example, the primary radars and combat direction center would be off-loaded to a supporting ship, in this case the Northampton rebuilt as a command ship or the Hawaii, stripped down and then rebuilt as such. The CV-58 design would also have required a minimum of four large escorts with the then advanced armament of the 5" Mk.42 and 3" Mk.32 (IIRC) DP and AA gun mounts and with AD missiles. Then there was the air group, with a 70,000lb or 100,000lb nuclear bomber carrying 12-20,000 lb nuclear bombs. Using a modified P2V or even the AJ Savage wasn't acceptable given the probable Soviet AD including jet aircraft such as the MiG-15. There was neither in service or even within the timeframe of the completion of the carrier of such a bomber being available, the A3D Skywarrior not entering service before 1957.
CV-58 would have been a "white elephant" had she actually been completed as designed and in the timeframe expected by the USN, ie. 1953. By 1953-54, the USN had had a chance to review three British inventions which made the operation of high-performance jet aircraft by an aircraft carrier more effective. These were the steam catapult, the angled deck and the mirror landing assistance device. If historical projections had been followed, the USN would have faced the prospect of a very expensive rebuild of CV-58 to add these features, which also would have allowed an island with stack and radar masts. The rebuild would have had to redesign the ordnance and fuel storage, as a conventional carrier would be operating AD Skyraiders and would need to put AVGAS tanks behind armor. The continuing reduction of the size of nuclear weapons such that A4D Skyhawks or AD Skyraiders could now deliver nuclear weapons as tactical devices, which would require a revision of the flight deck and hanger as the 100,000lbs bomber would not be needed, and the 70,000lbs bomber, the A3D and the A2J would be sufficient to deliver nuclear weapons as a strategic asset against the Soviet Union. Of course, the rise of the Poseidon program diminished the need for carriers as strategic weapons delivery platforms.
Despite the increased awareness of the threat of the Soviet Union under Stalin, Truman continued to seek to suppress government spending while funding his social programs. That's where the funding crisis came unexpectedly, due to a recession in FY1949. Truman had to cut, and he targeted the defense budget for $4M. Conventional forces took the worst of the cuts. The USN was reduced to one carrier battle group in the Pacific, Atlantic and Mediterranean. The Army was really damaged, such that it had a single combat ready division in FY1950. Much of the rest of the Army was fully dedicated to training and throughput of draftees with the return to a peacetime draft. The only capability that wasn't cut was the USAF and SAC, as the US continued to rely on its possession of the atomic bomb, a strategic decision that failed when the Soviets exploded their own bomb in 1949 and demonstrated the swept wing fighters, including the MiG-15 that same year when the USAF was still relying on modified B-29s as its primary delivery system. The US had already decided on the defense cuts before these events occurred. It took the Korean Conflict to force reconsideration of other US strategic assumptions, which included the capabilities of the carrier and its escorts.
There is one other impact of the CV-58 design. The trouble encountered with designing any effective method of dealing with exhaust from the fuel fired boilers helped push the design, development and fielding of nuclear propulsion, which, of course, eliminated the need for stacks and such.
It's amazing how he can find up with little known naval history so well.😊 I really appreciate it.
Drach spoils us every Saturday. III
Very, very fine video. Two thumbs up!
Just when I was sad you didn't make an episode about this ship, you post this
I think the grandfathers of some of Kel-Tec's design board were on the design board for the USS United States.
Thank you, Drachinifel.
Personally, this is one of my favorite aircraft carrier designs.
God I love this station! Keep it up Drach!
As a sailor from the 1960s, that answered some questions I didn't know to ask, interesting.
It amazes me that this thing was actually laid down
"No Island?"
"Could get in the way of the wings."
"Where's the radar going."
"we need to beat the army and airforce!"
I have some vague memory that the idea was to put all the things normally on an island onto an escort ship, probably of cruiser size. Running flying operations that way would not be a great solution, but probably better than trying to do so from the galleries.
Conning the huge ship in harbour would be even more of a problem.
The idea was for a separate Radar Ship to accompany the Carrier Battle Group, as well as aircraft carrying warning radar covering the CBG. And at leadt one standard CVA carrying fighters to defend the CBG, while the supercarrier carried the bombers and escort fighters.
"This is going to be the first Nuclear Jet Age carrier. All of the old, useless fixtures must be removed to make way for the modern and relevant."
"Okay, then why did you also insist on a massive 1930s-style secondary battery? Planning on fighting off a swarm of torpedo boats?"
"....GO NAVY BEAT ARMY"
@@Rutherford_Inchworm_III Given that the thing didn't have an island I'm a little curious what they planned to do for fire direction, but in all honesty such a battery would probably have been useful against small boat attacks. Y'know, on the off chance something this massive would even notice such an attack.
Nuclear small boat attacks?
@@PhysicsGamer As I've said elsewhere, given the two alternatives (neither of which would have lasted out the 50s) Truman should have simply given the money to the Army to train more divisions. Would have saved a lot of lives in Korea.
Truman honestly was not a great CinC.
From a Smithonian Air and Space magazinr article, this was cancelled in favor of the B36.
03:17: I see at least two Nuc-capable airframes in that picture. Obviously, that photo is 'way. Way. After the period under discussion.
2:10 AJ Savage had three engines, Two propellers and one jet.
One of my favourite "never-builts"
USS Nuclear Ryujo
One of the most influential ship designs in the XX century and the only dream gigantic ship designed around the 1940s that spawned dozens of descendants (despite being never built), not to mention being the canon of the modern carrier to these days (for the few navies who can afford working supercarriers... all others have been at best toying with harrier-carriers for decades, or should have). Thanks for the much appreciated video.
There is only one navy that has any supercarriers
@@Zoinksmeboi correct, my point exactly, and at least another two (navies) with pocket deep enough to attempt to create something similar to a supercarrier ending up with less than they paid for.
USS Forestal: We always called her "USS Zippo", due to her seeming ability to catch fire, anywhere, anytime, for no reason at all. We were always nervous when we moored at the same pier. When we close down the bars and head back for the night, will we still have a home to go to?
Drach good job as usual!
You videos have helped me get through many lunches!
Just the idea that people actually thought modern warfare would ALL be with Nukes makes me shiver in my boots!
It's a weapon, like a stick or a stone.
Why anyone would be foolish enough to never use it is the crazy thought.
Please consider videos on the evolution of additional ship engineering systems such as ventilation, fire fighting, food storage and preparation etc. Thanks
Yeah WoW version the USS United States is really would probably have ended up as since the British Empire Royal Navy and the United States Navy experiment with the angled deck would have been filtered into the design
Fun thing, the length of this design would ultimately be "accurated", in the sense that it would be equal to the Nimitz and Gerald Ford classes
A dedicated Strategic Nuke carrier with flights of F111's and fighter cover would actually be pretty scary.
I remember reading that the keel for the United States was used for the Forrestal instead of being scrapped
It was extremely short sighted to think all future wars/combat would be handled by the biggest hitting weapon to the exclusion of all others.
i don't know Drach that double deck wing design does look interesting!! that feature might be worth exploring again!!
Wake up babe, Cold War Drach vid dropped
Very enjoyable, Drach! Since their laying down barely makes it just before 1950, I wonder if you will look at the United States Navy's destroyer leaders, the one off Norfolk (DL-1) and the Mitscher class (DL-2 through -5). By the way, somewhere in my fuzzy reading past I seem to recall that Johnson had some conflicts of interest with Convair, the maker of the B-36. This resulted not just in the cancelation of the United States but also in the termination of the Northrop flying wings XB-35 and YB-49.
At least a part of the problem for the flying wings was their thickness to chord being selected for the B-35, which was not all that fast, being a WW2 piston engine design. The B-49 was a minimal change to move the B-35s that were being built to jets. But that left the thick wing, which limited it's speed, yet was also needed for the fuel and payload.... plus structure and people I suppose. 🤔 They are handy to have in a plane.
The longitudinal stability was a bombing problem too - the B-49 was not _unstable,_ but it was not completely stable either - it would slowly oscillate a few degrees. That was enough to make bomb aiming inaccurate. It needed active flight controls to settle down, but that technology was decades away.
@@John.0z The yaw was quite a problem for the Wings. Especially when they went to jets as Northrop planned on using the propellers and their shaft housings on the XB-35 for yaw control. But it was nearly unmanageable with the jets, and it's what killed Captain Glen Edwards and his flight test crew . it's interesting to note that a computer the size of a desktop today would have probably solved all the stability problems. But back in the late 40s you would have had to have something size of a Sperry Univac, and I don't think the YB-49 could have swallowed one.
@@dennisnichols2411 Thank you. No matter how much I read about most things to do with technology, I find there is always more to learn.
BTW, the performance of the processors inside modern phones would be much more computing power than that stability and control task requires. My tower would out-perform even the Cray 2 series. I started in mainframes, and some modern microcontrollers have about the same performance. Not the same I/O though.
Thank you Drachinifel. Curious project 🤔
Not so much information about it
A very artful reference to "Old Yeller?"
Thanks!
All of this so the Admirals could have a piece of the Pentomic pie, can't let the Air Force and Army get all the money and goodies! Nothing to do with practical considerations and winning a war. The MIC that Eisenhower warned about! Drach, how do you produce so much quality content? Can't thank you enough!
2:35 Can we take a moment and appreciate how terrifying 100 nukes crammed onto a ship is? I know nuclear submarines carry a similar amount of weapons, but still
I find it funny that they couldn't conceptualize that miniaturization was going to be a thing even for nuclear warheads, and were to the point of laying down ships that would have been grossly oversized for what ended up being put into practice by the 1950's
Eh, Drach has this a bit backwards. Its not that larger aircraft were never developed and therefore the larger carrier was superfluous. Its that a larger carrier was not developed and therefore larger aircraft were superfluous. The F-111 was not a viable carrier plane due to its handling requirements, and a larger flight deck would alleviate that.
With sufficient space and strong enough deck you could expect to see a navalized version of the B-1, for example. This is inconceivable with current carrier design because it took the path of supporting tactical aircraft instead of strategic.
No. In 1945, a 20kt nuclear bomb was 10,000 lbs. Even in 1952 Korean War, no one could imagine Lawrence Livermore Labs could come up with a 200kt warhead that weight about 400 lbs. Up to then, the Navy fought for money to deliver nuclear weapons. Korea was the impetus to build carriers to carry high speed and larger jets. Polaris finally gave the Navy the same standing as the USAF in the nuclear game. In the book Tomcat/Eagle, the Israeli author described the USAF as a collection of varying aircraft with the single purpose of delivering or launching a nuclear warhead. In the skies over North Vietnamese, both the USN and USAF rediscovered the need for dogfighting that resulted in the F-15 and adopting the F-14 to ACM via Topgun as the F-14 wasn’t specifically designed for agile combat.
Thanks
14 seconds ago is wild!
Could you do a what if video on a queen Elizabeth class carrier with a catapult instead of ski jump?
Ultimately it's Sub that carries the nuclear warheads
Depends on the size of the warhead. The Adams-class DDG I served on had some nuclear warheads for the ASROCs we carried.
Subs became the primary Navy component for strategic deterrence, but the size of nuclear weapons dropped rapidly enough that before long even aircraft as small as the Douglas A-4 Skyhawk could carry them.
@@Axel0204 but, as he said, ultimately those were abandoned leaving the subs.
Nukes on carriers were dropped to allow carriers wider geopolitical room to maneuver in.
@@nektulosnewbie I agree, but that is a matter of politics, not capability.
@@Axel0204 that has nothing to do with guangruis statement.
Great video...👍
Louis A Johnson was Truman's chief fundraiser for the 1948 campaign and actively lobbied for SecDef position. which he got after Truman forced out James V Forrestal. well deserved retribution for Forrestal to have a class of CV's named for him.
Watching how nuclear payloads size change to partly microchips and other tech is interesting.
Can you please make a video on the town class light cruiser of 1910
There’s a good case to be made that Johnston was the second worst SecDef of the past 100 years only losing to McNamara.
Amen to that.
Quite. While Drach ended this video off with him being anti-USN, he screwed over all parts of the US armed forces in general due to heavy budget cuts. A responsibility partially borne by Truman as well.
At least McNamara admitted his mistakes…40 years later.
@charliedontsurf334, but he still had the sense to know he was wrong
@@charliedontsurf334lets give him a credit where he deserved. He at least managed to fix that interservice rivalry between branches, maybe not totally but at least standardized nomenclature, cancelled out all those insane projects that each branch was trying to make.
I whoud aboslotly love a video about the Hannover as its name is in world of war ships I think it’s class was H-45 ENORMOUS SHIP but I am not a historian and I can not find mutch videos let alone sorces for it
Whoa, i thought the US Navy started in the nuclear game only with submarine launched ballistic missiles. Thanks as always!
Nope and regulus was a surface launched cruise missile.
4:34 - The funniest part of that photo is I think it was meant to be promotional.
This will be interesting
Now that there are no more of these, how about the Leahy and Belknap cruisers?
Boosted fission nukes made them far smaller and efficient, meaning that far smaller attack aircraft would be needed, making USS United States unnecessary.
The USN didn't entirely give up on the idea of using carrier based aircraft to deliver nuclear weapons, until well after the Polaris SSBN program was already well established. Note the A-5 Vigilante supersonic bomber, which was developed in the 50's, and entered service in 1961, developed specifically for the nuclear attack role. In 1963, two years later, with the Polaris program proving a success, the A-5 was converted to the fast recon role, with several squadrons entering service. They continued in this role for a decade, starting to be phased out in 1974, with the final retirement coming in 1979.
One unique feature was it's bomb bay design. Basically a long tube, which ejected the bomb straight out the back between the engines, which allowed the aircraft to make high speed attack runs and maintain said speed to exit the target area posthaste after delivering the weapon.
I know it’s not something you do, be it’d be fun if you did a guide to still in service CVN models (68+).
Cool
Thank you Wargaming, very cool
There was even consideration for a Requlas equipped carrier.
I love that intro music! Is it available for download from somewhere??
Could you make a video on nukes on aircraft carriers of the early Cold War or after ww2?
Ah yes, the Revolt of the Admirals was the reason this ship was cancelled, when the Truman administration wanted to use the Air Force's B-36 bombers as main nuclear deterrent and the interservice rivalry between USAF and USN, when you're thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry. I know it's a lot of politics behind it all, but well the reason for the CVA-58 cancellation was obviously mainly politics.
You are also forgetting about US army also trying to get funding for thier nuclear delivery devices. Just by sheer amount of diffrent jet fighters between Navy and Airforce would make any manager head spinning. Thank god for McNamara, if there arent for him, who know what kind of insanity those branches would came up with.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry.
What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes? I’m talking hit squads and car bombs. Either you’re lying or you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry.
What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes? I’m talking hit squads and car b*mbs. Either you’re lying or you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
> when you’re thinking IJN and IJA rivalry was bad, compare that to the 1949 US interservice rivalry.
What? How could any US interserivce bickering compare to the IJA/IJN rivalry? You know that the Japanese leadership was assassinating eachother, yes?
The cancellation was beneficial in hindsight. With steam catapults, angle deck and flight deck sponsors only a few years later, CVA-58 would have been a bigger Midway class that required modernization. The 1966-70 modernization of 20-year old Midway was $200 million when the JFK was built for $293 million, and Midway couldn’t conduct flight operations in rough seas due to heavy rolling (see TH-cam on this including ramp strikes killing the pilots). Today, a Ford class carrier costs $12 billion.
Isnt this outside channel timeline? This is what triggered the revolt of the Admirals yes?
Nice
Makes me wonder if a completely flat topped carrier would be workable in the modern era if you wanted to build say, a "stealth" carrier (Zumwalt style). A lower profiled ship that operated drones perhaps.
Submergeable! Definitly needs to be a sub. (Or a helicopter)
Nah. You'd still need lots of sticky-up bits for radars, comms etc, so it wouldn't offer any real advantages. Not unless you placed all the electronics measures in stealth drones permanently circling above.
Done forget that you have to maintain a sea worthy vessel?
There are plenty of very big waves rolling around the oceans of the world!
You can't let consideration of any one particular issue or technology override the need to have a sea worthy vessel.
I wondered about the story of the S. S. United States, that was used to transport troops during WW2 and is docked in Philadelphia, PA, with some unknown fate as the city wants the ship out of the area.
The Liner SS United States was designed and built by Newport News Shipbuilding but was not laid down until 1950 so she wasn't even a gleam in some designer's eye during WWII. While intended to serve as a troop transport in wartime she never served in that role.
That said, she is a gem that I would hate to see "reefed" or hauled to a scrapyard. I would like to see her restored at least cosmetically though after this much time even that would be incredibly expensive.
Ah yes, The United States Ship United States. Designed about the same times as Her Majesty's Ship Her Majesty
It's not as if it would have been the first; that _United States_ was sister to Old Ironsides. Caveat: the USS prefix wasn't yet a thing.
Was any of the propulsion equipment ordered for this retained then repurposed for a different project?
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Admiral Gallery launched a V2 from a carrier.
I was hoping for the ocean liner
The post-war carrier, not Malta-class, but Texas-sized.
My biggest wonder about this whole episode was the short-sightedness of assuming atomic bombs would never get smaller. Surely they were already working on smaller designs by the end of the war. I can only guess it was too secret to let anybody else know. But by 1948-49-50? Somebody must have had an inkling by then 5 years after the first ones.
Drach, what’s the name of the song you use in your intro?
Legionnaire by Scott Buckley
@@joemontgomery6658 Thanks!
Been wondering this myself
did you ever think about including custom animations in your vids?
Damn,I haven't been this early in my entire life
How would the CVA-58 supercarrier compare to a Ford class carrier?
Yeah, on one hand, during Operation Crossroads USAAF horribly missed a stationary battleship that was painted pink or orange (I've read the USS Arkansas was painted pink and then same story but orange) AND they still missed the ship by a half mile. I'm sure that the Navy could do better but hey, imo, the less people dealing with nuclear weapons the better. And who knows, maybe the Air Force will learn how to hit the broad side of a barn with a little practice. Ok, A LOT of practice! But the strategic use of nukes would eventually be married with large nuclear submarines with major missille batteries and able to deliver numerous nuclear war heads from under the seas. As a nuclear deterant it is a very strategic weapon.
LIke the RAF TSR.2, the USS _United States_ would be too limited in functionality for its cost. Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and the vastly more versatile _Forrestal_ class carrier was built in its place from the middle 1950's on. Indeed, USS _Forrestal_ set the standard for the modern supercarrier that has been carried on to the _Gerald R. Ford_ class of carriers.