Finnish m/27rv Cavalry Carbine
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- / forgottenweapons
www.floatplane...
Cool Forgotten Weapons merch! shop.forgottenw...
When the Finnish Army adopted the m/27 improved pattern of the Mosin Nagant rifle, there was one group of soldiers who were not really satisfied with it. Finland had a cavalry brigade - one of the elite elements of the force - who wanted something more like the German Kar98AZ carbines they had been using up to that point. Specifically, the wanted a side-mounted sling, a shorter barrel, and a bent bolt handle. So, in 1933/34, the Tikkakoski company produced 2,000 new barrels, 520mm in length (about 2 inches shorter than the standard m/27 barrel). These were then assembled into complete rifles using m/27 and existing Russian m/91 parts.
The guns were completed in 1934 and 1935, the bent bolts, German-style slings, and shortened barrels. The sights are standard m/27 pattern, as are the actions. They were serialized in the 72,000 - 75,000 range. The new carbines were issued to the Cavalry Brigade, which used them through both the Winter War and Continuation War. With the exception of 200 more barrels made by VKT in 1937, no further production took place - as the carbines were lost, destroyed, or worn out they were replaced with other weapons (most notably the m/31 Suomi submachine gun). At the end of the Continuation war, some 900 were worn to the point of being useless and were destroyed. This left just over 300 in Finnish inventory, and visually all of these (304, specifically) were sold to InterArms in the 1960s and exported to the United States. Today the m/27rv is one of the scarcest patterns of Finnish Mosin, and I am very happy to have been able to show this example to you. Thanks to the private collector who made it available to me!
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740
Granpa carried one of those from '40 till '44. Managed to keep his even when in hospital, in order to avoid getting a heavier rifle.
Wow your grandpa was overly attached to that carbine.
@@aker1993 One could say he was hooked to it?
@@aker1993 Don't know if you've ever been in the military, but while I was conscripted, I was jealous to our messengers who had swivel-stock guns. While not lighter than the solid stock gun I had, they were MUCH less of a ball-ache to carry around and work with day in and day out and the old rifles were even more unergonomic to lug around, being heavier and longer. At least in this regard, Petri's grandpa had a solid, clever head on his shoulders.
@@aker1993 He did have to turn it in eventually, but he managed to sneak his FN 1910 out. Not that he was supposed to have that in the first place, but he won it in a card game in '42. I wouldn't be here without that .32
@@petrimakela5978 And you're just going to casually leave that story un-elaborated-on.
"The bent bolt handle sticks out."
Actually...
*You had one job*
Eyyyyyy...
Thunder stealer..😆
I can't believe Ian lied to us like this
It does stick out it still could easily get snagged on something
I believe the "URR" on the unit disc stands for "Uudenmaan Rakuunarykmentti" (Uusimaa's Dragoon Regiment). Not sure about the rest of the markings.
I think you are absolutely correct. The unit marking was 1. URR. I think that would mean the First Troop of Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment. Uudenmaan Rakuunarykmentin 1. Eskadroonaa. The regiment was established in early 1918, took part in the Civil war as part of the Western army on the white side, followed by Winter war and Continuation war. It was disbanded in 1947.
@@Iceman_zZz Thanks for the additional info.
@@Iceman_zZz It was replaced by Uudenmaan rakuunapataljoona, a dragoon battalion, that was further downgraded to a single squadron in '89 and finally disbanded in 2015 with traditions and flag now passed on to the infantry school still operating at the Lappeenranta garrison.
Spent my kindergarten days in the garrison area and went to school by the garrison fence ;)
Thanks for the unit minutia🇫🇮🇺🇸
HAKKAA PÄÄLLE!!! 1. lippueskadroona, II/07 ei koskaan kotiudu
*Russian trooper:* "You are stuck, surrender, or I'm coming to in get you!"
*Finn Cavalryman (buried to armpits in snow):* "I don't think you are, the snow is too deep!"
*Russian:* "Too deep Hah, you coward, snow doesn't scare me, I'm Russian!"
*Finn:* "You're Russian... and I'm still on my horse!"
I heard a version of this that goes "Sure you will, I'm standing on my horse!"
Oh wow, Finnish Mosins really do have an "Unicorn" among them, new to me and I am finnish. Once again tnx for the information Ian.
Mihin se Pekka sua koski? 🤔
Ei sentään Pekka Hiplas
🤣🤣🤣
Considering the history of those guns it is impressive how well preserved this example is. Sure it is not pristine but it went through 4 years of conflict and came out reasonably well
I have a 1901 dated, Finn. captured M91 in my safe at the moment. It's in absolute insane condition, with zero pitting, chips/cracks/dents in the stock, and the metal is also in great shape
The Finns keep their swords sharpened.
I absolutely love the back drop in this video.. so much history just hanging there on the wall..
Ian's videos on Finnish guns are always fun :-)
Finns were funny little people who used what they got in hand (after civil war when russian troops were expelled and their rifles confiscated) to the new republic of Finland.
Then they tried to make Mosin-Nagant's better and succeeded. Partly Tikkakoski-made barrels and Lapua-made high quality ammo. Every grunt had the opportunity to become a sniper :)
Ian has noticed that our small nation has even weapons history - not made by us, but still :D
In the unit disc URR stands for Uudenmaan rakuunarykmentti (Uusimaa dragoonregiment). Other cavalry unit was Hämeen ratsurykmentti HRR (Tavastia cavarlyregiment). During Winter War and Continuation War URR and HRR formed part of the Cavarlybrigade.
As a Finn it's very cool to learn about a variation of a Finnish firearm that I hadn't known about, not the first time on this channel. Thank you Ian!
"The bent bolt handle sticks out."
Yeah, but the cavalry didn't want it to!
Hey Ian, it would be interesting to hear some stories and experiences about your trips here in Finland and Europe.
And thanks for your videos 👍
I own many mosins, and would love to add thisbone to the collection and channel. I bet the shorter barrel means a concussive blast that rattles your teeth.
The barrel is longer than the M38/M44 carbines so should not be as bad as those.
I thought that the "D" mark on barrel/receiver means that the start of the rifling has been "enlarged" to prevent feeding issues with Russian ammunition.
The Finnish "D bullet" has to be explained more specifically. For example, the M28-30 would prefer a lighter 185 grain Lapua D-46 (or Sako 108A) whereas the M39 would prefer the heavier, 200 grain Lapua D-166. Both rifles should have the same bore size (7,59-7,63mm) but the M39 has slightly deeper rifling (7,88-7,92mm vs. 7,83-7,87mm). Source: Ampujain lehti Nro 5, May 1950
That surprise knurling under that bolt handle knob is oddly satisfying. Looks like someone put a tiny waffle iron to it.
Perfect way to start the day
Start with Finnish, that's what I always say.
Perfect way to relax after work.
Is it just me or do the Finnish guns look better than their Russian counterparts? Especially when it comes to the Mosins and such.
It’s not just you….it seems that the Finns and Israelis just take anything Russian and make it 10x better
It's not just you, it's not just guns, and it's not just Russian equipment. They made the Gloster Gladiator and Brewster Buffalo sexy.
The Finns know weapons, and like them tuned to their finest potential.
Russia had the manpower so they had the quantity over quality production
You are not the only one.
someone correct me if I'm wrong, but is that a Suomi KP Trench version hanging in the background, with the silly looking pistol grip? I've seen a picture or 2 of a shortened Suomi with a pistol grip and no shoulder stock, so idk if that was one.
Yes...and I have a video on it coming later. :)
@@ForgottenWeapons Ever since I saw the 1 small image of it, I've been both curious if one actually existed, and if one did, waiting for Forgotten Weapons to cover one, needless to say I'm beyond thrilled.
You are correct. It is this one: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Suomi_M31_Korsu.JPG
A bunker/dugout version, rather than a trench one.
@@ForgottenWeapons Could you in any way publish it like right now? ;)
So when do we get the perfect combo gun to finish your enfield series? We’ve already got an enfauser, time for a mosfield!
We also need a Moser to finish the trilogy
@@alexleake3491 Allow me to introduce you to the Polish wz.91/98/23 carbine, a Mosin rechambered to 8mm Mauser, using Mauser 98 barrel bands and bayonet lug and sling.
@@janwacawik7432 perfect
@@janwacawik7432 Apparently the Finn's also put a Mauser Style Safety onto some Mosin bolts to see how it would work, obviously it wasn't good enough to do on all the rifles but that would also work for a Moser
What a beaut! I have never been a huge Mosin fan... until someone says "Finnish" Mosin 😍. That changes everything.
The saddest thing in Finnish military history is selling weapons and spare parts in perfect condition at the price of scrap abroad instead of selling to domestic collectors and enthusiasts. I consider that outright criminal. The government's principle was that civilians should not own and use "military weapons" even for hunting. For this reason, many Finnish and Soviet vintovka Mosina were changed from 7.62 mm to 9.3 mm because the military cartridge caliber was not allowed to be used.
There are huge amount of M39's etc. in circulation here though, mostly sold as hunting rifles. Problem is that no one buys them, so why not sell them to other countries?
@@duhni4551 Onhan se harmi silti kun tulevat sukupolvet ei pääse nauttimaan näistä vanhoista vehkeistä.
@@TheSpekkel1 Ei ne meiltä kesken lopu =)
@@duhni4551 Niin sitä äkkiseltään luulisi ja vaikka vanhoja aseita meillä läjäpäin onkin, niin totuus on se että keräily markkinat muualla euroopassa on myös hoksannut miten suuri määrä, muualla jo varsin kalliita aseita, lojuu suomalaisten aseliikkeiden varastoissa ja vieläpä huokeaan hintaan.
Vastakin kyselin muutamaa ruotsin mauseria, mutta jokaisen oli eräät puolalaiset kerenneet jo ostaa itselleen..
@@TheSpekkel1 Ei kai ketään voi siitä syyttää että myydään kun joku ostaa? Vapaastihan niitä meilläkin kuka tahansa voi ostaa mutta jos ei kerta osta, sitten myydään muualle.
Normi kauppaa se on ja saa niitä sieltä Puolasta takaisinkin ostettua jos haluaa.
The reason these are so similar to k98az, was because it was the original rifle issued to the cavalry. Believe they got a ton for quite cheap from french of whom they also bought their sabers from. They however were sold out in late 20's I believe due to them not shooting a 7.62x53r/54r
The "rv" is probably for "ratsuväki", literally meaning cavalry.
Kyllä.
Funnily enough it's specifically a compound word that's amenable to the rhyming literal translation of... _horse force!_
@@lepuuttelu Somehow that feels like a phrase that should only be written in all caps... HORSE FORCE!
@@lepuuttelu ratsu is mount tho
@@jkausti6737 Well... we have some pretty amazing similar words , right ?
Like... Lohikäärme for dragon is directly translated as Salmon Snake .
Imagining someone shouting to warn of a dragon, but instead shouting Salmon Snake would be pretty fun to watch.
I want to spend a day in that room.
Elbonia used to have an elite cavalry troop, that is, until one night, when the Royal field-kitchen company bivouacked next to the royal stables.
Thank you Ian great work
I imagine there are a least a tiny handful in the USA owned by people who have no clue what they really have, just bought them at a pawnshop, or some "mom-and-pop" gun store.
Agreed. I have 2 Finnish rifles that I cannot 100% identify: a 91 made in 1943 and (I think) a 1922 carbine made in ???
@@bhoward9378 Sounds like you know what atleast one of them is. The finns produced m91s from 1940-1943. By VKT and Tikkakoski. The 1922 rifle I would have to see. Sounds like it could be a former m91 that was shortened and turned into a "dragoon". Which was the predecessor to the 91/30. Almost all of the dragoons in America are Finnish property stamped.
Yep, that’s how I found mine, on consignment! No idea of how rare it was!
So many Finnish firearms lately? What is going on? I'm not complaining, I'm LIKING AND COMMENTING for engagement like I do every time.
He probably filmed most of this while he was in Finland for the scaled down Finnish brutality
Ian got to visit some *interesting* places while visiting Finland. And now we're enjoying the harvest. 😃
Hey Ian, there's this survivalist TH-camr called Bushcraft Bear who is reporting on the volcano eruption in the Canary Islands.
I had to do a doubletake because I thought it was you, well except for his accent. Who knows maybe he's your far removed cousin!
And here I thought I knew Pystykorvas...
Edit: And I indeed enjoyed the video - thanks again, Ian!
You know the war was truely hellish when sturdy guns like this are beat to unsalvageable crap in that short a time frame.
Thank you , Ian .
Super informative. Although it's a tangential mention, I was glad to get some context around my Finnish sniper Mosin.
Sadly, the stock is a crude replacement of the original.
I have one in excellent shape--except the stock is broken in half and still attached. The pride of my collection.
Great video. I actually saw one, once. Several years ago, the owner was walking across the parking lot on his way into the huge Tulsa gun show. He was being followed by a gaggle of Finnish collectors, me included, all waving money in his face, but he had other plans.
Gotta love that Suomi Kp-31 Korsu model on the background with a pistol grip replacing the rifle-style buttstock. The name "korsu" meaning a log bunker in Finnish.
Yay more finish stufff
I found mine thanks to this video. I spied two unusual Mosins on consignment at a local gun store and asked to see it. I snapped a couple photos and went home to research. Ten minutes later, I broke every speed law on the way back to the gun store to put down a deposit. Turns out they didn’t know what they had and had priced the guns (there were two) like a regular M27 rifles. I bought them both, flipped one and got my M27rv plus another extremely rare M27 rifle (1936) for free!
I so love carbines. That would be a beauty to own.
I wonder if there are any 'in shooting condicion' Suomi M/31 "Korsu" variant SMGs
Thanks Ian.
I must say the Mosin is very pretty gun very sleek no bulk just a nice looking rifle
Love that Finnish
Hey, it not an Enfield, other bolt actions do exist! Bolt action carbines like this are a lot of fun, I need another one.
I second that motion!! 🤠👍
beautiful little mosin carbine. even though they are kinda funky, I'll alway have a soft spot for those old mosin nagants.
Well shit…I need one to add to my carbine collection…
I second that motion!! 🤠👍
If a person is going to "Bubba" a standard Mosin... well, this is what they should Bubba it into.
The fact that this was modeled after the kar98az is not purely due to Finns adopting German doctrine but because the cavalry actually used the kar98az for a few years in the beginning of its existence.
I feel like the Finnish cavalry should ride into battle on reindeer, that would be badass.
Hey Ian, I was just reading Finland's WWII history 30 minutes ago...... and when I come to TH-cam it show me this video, did you read my mind or what?
for the fins to scrap a gun it must have been absolutely destroyed
Not really. There was more than enough m/39, m/28-30 rifles and machine guns like dp27, kp31 etc, to arm the post war finnish concripts. Older mosin variants didn't really see any use after ww2, just going through depots, where the best guns were fixed of any flaws and put into storage for the war that never came before they were suplussed.
Not really. There was more than enough m/39, m/28-30 rifles and machine guns like dp27, kp31 etc, to arm the post war finnish concripts. Older mosin variants didn't really see any use after ww2, just going through depots, where the best guns were fixed of any flaws and put into storage for the war that never came before they were suplussed.
Gun Jesus in his natural habitat, room full of Finnish guns.
I saw one of these at a gun show i thought it was a m27 that had been sporterized i wish i had bought it now
I always goi into dad joke mode at the end of Ian’s videos
“ thanks for watching”
“ thanks for making!”
it's literally just the love child of the M91/30 and the Kar98K
That's a very cool carbine. I bet it had a good kick when you fired it.
Never thought i'd say a Mosin was pretty.
Finnish? Awesome!
Good morning everyone.
Awesome! an ancient SOCOM. Hold on, the 7.62R kicks! It looks quite shooty.
Say this together and see if you don't get "goosebumps" Finnish Mosin Carbine!!!!
I want a finnish mosin so bad. if i could get a like new one that would be amazing
You just cannot beat an M-27 trigger in a original military Mosin. My M-28/76 has a M-27 trigger, so sweet.
Finland's cavalry most have been on polar bear
When the Bear Cavalry shows up, yer truly fooked...
Polar bears don't live in Finland. We've got no seals in the north and the reindeer are too fast for the polar bears. Too warm further south.
On the other hand, the just mentioned reindeers were utilized in hauling ammo, wounded and weapons in Northern finland to great effect. They proved to be a completely competitive option against the Russian arctic forces which often moved around on armored motor skis.
@@miskakopperoinen8408 importing polar bears would solve that problem
@@mohammadnibb1623 No it wouldn't. Norway shares a land border with us and Norway has polar bears. If Finland would be suitable to polar bears, we would already have them.
Besides, Finnish winters are getting warmer even in Lapland. Global warming, you know. Universal snow cover is nowhere near a guaranteed thing and solid 3 months of snow for skiing is basically a pipe dream in southern Finland by now. Lapland used to have a small population of arctic foxes but they're gone too, have been for a while. They can't hide in their bright white fur in dark, uncovered land.
Ian can properly pronounce the simple Finnish words he needs to take a break from Finnish guns
Just looking at it makes me think someone out there has come across one of these by chance in the US, thought it was a butchered el-Cheapo Mosin, and shot the hell out of it before tossing it away. It would be easy to mistake one for a parts-bin garage build with a hand-modded bolt-handle.
To me all Finnish Mosins are unicorns can find them for the life of me
Nice video once again.
Great video. This is interesting to know about.
F I N L A N D
Hey Ian, there's a guy at my local flea market trying to sell a bubba M44 that has the SA stamp on it. The stock isn't stained, it's been cut down, missing the bayonet. He's trying to sell it as a "Finnish Paratrooper Mosin". Is there even a such thing?
Look up if the Finns had paratroopers at the time I guess?
@@gingergorilla695 that's not the question.... And I did look for a "paratrooper Mosin".
@@TheBluewingdevil just trying to help dude
Unusual to see a cavalry carbine with a bayonet mount.
You should try the Mannlicher-Schonauer M1903/14 Cavalry Carbine as a video idea. I heard they were pretty decent based on range and accuracy.
I would love to see you address the 7.62x64 vs 7.62x63 issue. I've read that chamberings really don't differ, or the loads are same etc.. Info seems to be all over the place.
I have what I believe to be a 1922 Ski Trooper variant. It has dual sling slots in the shoulder stock and a bayonet lug for a blade bayonet. It has both Finnish and Russian markings; the Russian markings are struck through. If I recall correctly, all Finnish builds were made on "Russian" receivers (i.e. made and marked prior to Independence). There is what I believe is a Tikka mark on the receiver. I have no idea how to verify what it actually is.
Does anyone have an thoughts about what this rifle may be?
Leave it to the Finns to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Their Mosin reworks are a thing of beauty compared to the Soviet counterparts.
I think I have two of these in my carbine stack in the garage. Everybody has one or two of these right?
Cheers.
Oh now I want a Finnish Mosin
I think it might be time to get a new camera. 4k60 for your videos would be so cool
Almost bought one of these two years ago at an auction but it wasn't worth paying $2750 for a rifle that's so rare it was going to just take up space in my cabinet.
I love Finn Mosins. Especially since they shoot great with standard .308 bullets. I can save my .311-.312 for my. 303 Brit and 7.7 Arisaka!
M39s have .310 barrels so they usually also like fatter bullets more, especially the good ol' D166.
@@mottee I gotta start casting my own! I have been meaning to for years but have never found the time.
Thankfully I have a friend that makes the oddball sizes like .577/450, .43 Mauser and the proper .268 for 6.5 Carcano.
i've read about these. I thought the only ones in existence was in some finnish guys collection with a straight bolt, and one in a museum . question, was calvery divison converted into a tank division, or just as a psuedo scout/jager division.
Where exactly was this filmed if i may ask?
In a Finnish private collection.
Finally! The M/27 for horse people (or riding spirits).
Of course it's cool. It's rare! I wonder if these kick like an M44 Mosin?
I love Finnish gear.
URR stamp suggests this was used by dragoons. Technicality.
Which is Ians favorite firearms of all time?
Look great to me as a carbine.
Keep it up
I see Gun Jesus has returned home to cover the holy grail of Finnish firearms! We're not worthy!
"Bent bolt handle sticks out" Pun intended?
Well, this one is really rare. Good luck finding those on bin in hardware store (NOT).
Well at least they made good use of them.
HRR reenactor here. I'd love to add a m/27rv to my kit. Already have an original saddle now I just need the carbine.
Anyone got a closeup of the URR poster at 4:55? I want to know what it says.
Hakkaa Päälle Pohjan Poika!
Is a schwarzlose machine gun the one in the bottom left corner? (Behind the maxim)
Jesus the story is so sad, imagine if the find made these 20 or evan 10 years before world war 1. We'd have so much more of them to cherish and remember, even if they'd still be limited compared to finnish infantry rifles.
The only gun I hated to shoot was a Nagant Carbine. Worse on my shoulder than a 10 Gauge shotgun
Another video from the Finnish candy store.