THERE IS A BATTLE BREWING BETWEEN UTR, WTN AND USTA TO RATE TENNIS PLAYERS. WHAT IS GOING ON?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- A Tennis player will have 3 tennis ratings now. A Universal Tennis Rating, World Tennis Number and United States Tennis Association Rating is all in effect. Why so many and who will prevail?
Thank you Andrew Peterson for the question.
Thank you to Peter Bartlett for taking the time for answering this question topic.
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Tennis needs to establish a universal handicap/rating system, just like golf. Having three different rating agencies is just foolish. USTA ratings really don’t work. At least UTR has a better system, IMO.
Exactly. So why is USTA/ITF not adopting the dominant system?
Are they too proud to use good software and admit they are decades to late, having lost their leadership in this area?
UTR now has global adoption. You are describing exactly why things evolved to UTR and why adoption-traction is so strong.
Read about the history-evolution here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Tennis_Rating#History_of_Universal_Tennis_Rating
On a side note, UTSA League ratings have become a joke lately. At least here in SE Michigan. I’ve see self rate 3.0’s go through a whole season playing at nearly a 4.5 level. What a joke.
Or you find a 3.0 to play on Facebook and they can't even hit a slow ball back to you : /
Why are more than half of the USA high schools using UTR for high school software and rankings? Why are all universities using UTR rankings rather than USTA standings for screening criteria? Why does the tennis channel use UTR? Why do foreign student-athletes get looked at for USA university scholarships based on UTR?
Why did the USTA hold onto a USA only "gold star for participation" point system for so long and lose ground to better tennis ranking systems?
Ask the right questions to get a better understanding of the changes underway at the USTA and within the global tennis community.
Tell me exactly why coming this late into the game why USTA/ITF aren't actually creating more of their own problems and conflating ranking systems once again?
Why re-invent another statistics-based ranking system when you have UTR already? Because USTA and ITF feel lost having not provided this leadership for many decades, and then gave UTR the runway (decades) to come up with a good solution which has it's roots in Europe (France)? The pedigree of UTR is good and USTA/ITF were inbreeding and sleeping on this one for decades with an elitist-legacy system that didn't serve the global tennis community, professional to amateur.
UTR is years ahead of ITF and USTA; There's so much runway given to UTR and global adoption that USTA/ITF is doing too little too late.
USTA and ITF had years to implement a fair and equitable ranking system that isn't relying upon "bad math" (random points) or "privileged travel" tennis families, restricting players to age, gender, and socio-economic strata.
The good news is that UTR can populate their ranking database from all public tournaments and is used by: USTA junior tournaments, Flex Leagues (all ages), clubs and high schools (50% of High Schools), Tennis Channel (along side WTA and ATP rankings), university coaching-recruiting, etc..
Now, tell me exactly why coming this late into the game why USTA/ITF aren't actually creating more of their own problems and conflating ranking systems once again?
History doesn't repeat, it rhymes with the USTA/ITF.
Don’t get me started on the USTA as a coach and father of a former jr player and a former D1 player. UTR has some issues but nothing is worst than the USTA. If not for UTRs my son possibly would hv never signed a NLI. Addressing withdrawals in general;
With UTRs if you have played for example 2 strong opponents in the blistering hot sun why would you turn around in an hour most of the time or 2 and play another match knowing your body can not withstand the heat. Parents and players hv to be smart . My son was sent to the ER due to heat exhaustion several times including hospitalized for 3 days . We made a decision to be safer becuz these tournaments/ systems do not care about these kids/players only about the money which includes ITA.
I have been monitoring the launch of the WTN in the US together with other players (see the related forum Talk Tennis, topic "Share your WTN - Crowd sourcing the NTRP to WTN mapping") and this new rating system seems to be off compared to UTR. When trying to map UTR with WTN, it seems that not all games (data load issue?) are taken into consideration and we can't see which games are part of the calculation (I have contacted them several times and they don't seem to know) for the WTN. It might be premature to say that WTN is not good but they need to catch up very soon if they want to be taken seriously...
It's too late to catch up with UTR 's adoption and sponsors.
That is evidence alone to prove the USTA is out of touch with reality and hasn't helped the game of tennis move forward for many decades. The USTA kept USA tennis in the dark ages too long. It seems the USTA is too old and too late to learn and change.
The global youth and international economy has already already committed to and embraced UTR.
Game over ... a decade ago.
It may be an asset and give players more options to compete. Somtimes USTA matches draws are closed and players are waitlisted. Sometimes UTR matches are filled early due to a high demand of players, so this may be another opportunity. Hopefully the ranking sysytems will aligned with eacthother for the most part.
The reality is that both USTA and ITF are with their "late to the game" tactic here are simply continuing to "fragment the rankings game."
They liked and supported for decades their "point systems" where some higher-ranked players simply spent a lot of money, traveled a lot, and filled tournament slots to get a "higher than reasonable" ranking.
That's not "pay to play," but more realistically "pay for your ranking."
You’re 100% correct! As a junior tennis player myself, this is something I’ve realized myself. The way usta selects players for tournaments is a points based system, and in order to qualify for high level tournaments they have to have a certain ranking. This is how usta makes its money, because many decent level kids have to sign up for plenty of tournaments just to qualify for tournaments they belong in, or travel cross country and cherry pick east tournaments. The problem with this is that it comes to the detriment of the players development. Instead of focusing on training and high level match play, they’re focused on winning tournaments or point chasing nationally just to keep up. As a result, utr tournaments and mens opens seem to be a very good alternative, as you don’t have to worry about ranking points or cherry picking easy tournaments. Instead, development and level is the focus. Many juniors that I know and I are for the most part, ditching usta and focusing on utr tournaments, as it counts for tennis recruiting and utr is the number 1 rating system that college coaches use to recruit. Usta points don’t mean squat for college.
@@grantmartin4773 Exactly, Grant.
Compensation drives behavior and the USTA competition affiliations are all about getting revenue for clubs and pros on staff. That's a conflict of interest and is discriminating against qualified and upcoming juniors. USTA has been (for decades) promoting a "rich family's elite access" to gold star (point) accumulations having less to do with real ability (due to restricted access and cost) and more to do with "invest in my club" to get ranked-recognized.
That's why universities are pulling so many international UTR ranked players into their rosters.
I know of some Grand Valley State (D2 school) prospects who didn't even get a chance to be looked at because their private/USTA club didn't afford them the ability to get UTR ranked and compete for college-university spots.
Such a loss for the USA's pool of talented players where the USTA never gave them a chance.
So after all these decades, what is the residual value of the USTA? For sure, follow the money and they help private clubs stay in business and help pay the pros working at these clubs.
ATP points and USTA legacy points are more like getting gold stars each time you take your SAT/ACT again, when the actual exam score actually matters 🙃😁
Socrates has posted a number of comments with a clear explanation of the problems with the USTA/WTN "system". The UTR algorithm has been far superior to the old USTA NTRP and there's no reason to complicate this further with WTN. I'm 65 and have been playing for over 50 years (HS, College D1 & D3) and 40 years of USTA Tournaments and Leagues. Over the years I've been on/or was the Captain of about a dozen teams that have competed at the USTA Nationals (Indian Wells, Tuscon, Surprise, Orlando). I played as a 5.0 NTRP for a few years after college but as a 4.5 since then. The level of SANDBAGGING I've seen has been disappointing. It's made worse by overly broad categories of 4.0, 4.5, and 5.0 NTRP ratings. As a "true" 65-year-old, 4.5-rated player with a 7.5 UTR, I've been a little "shocked" to play against guys at Nationals with the same NTRP but a 9.5+ UTR. The UTR system is much better (more accurate) for everyone; from juniors to seniors and everyone in between.
Exactly. For the first time UTR can use pretty good statistics to pinpoint sandbaggers, find new talent early (Alcaraz), do a better job of seeding and tournaments for High Schools, screen university bound athletes, double-check USTA decision makers, etc..
Remember when hawk-eye and replays were controversial, but improved the quality of the line calls?
Are there any videos or video series that interview pro tennis players, both men and women, on their advice on how they build their teams, their practice routines,their fitness routines, their nutrition, and their opponent scouting? Basically, a deep dive into what it takes beyond pure athletic and tennis ability to become a top tennis player on the WTA and ATP tours and what it takes to stay there and maximize their winning results and rankings. It would also be nice to deep dive into sponsorships, how they are offered, negotiated and maintained, since this is such a large part of top players revenue streams to keep playing pro tennis, which is not a cheap sport to participate in. How much to they make versus what they make on court and how does one influence the other?
Its simple - have a rating number to help beginner - intermediate - team tennis competition experiences and habe a ranking system im specified events for juniors and adults who want to play head to head knock out events as we have always used, aka ITF events - WTA and ATP events. They use tournaments for a reason, ranking points from thise results for a reason as this way over 100 years delivers a ranking system that sorts out the chaf from the wheat.
UTR poses a tough situation for those in junior and USTA travel tennis where they imagined that they "invested" or "spent" more to get closer to the top through point accumulation in more tournament entries. UTR makes an accurate ranking (all ages and abilities) less dependent on expensive tournament travel.
No longer will a USA junior have to travel 20 or more times a year to maintain a national ranking that may help them advance to D1 to D3 University or get a shot at demonstrating their ability to play at the professional level.
Might we imagine that UTR takes some of the socio-economic disparities and elitism out of tennis in the USA and around the world?
Q.E.D.
Jr. players that want to play good college tennis still need to play lots of tournaments , regardless of rating. I'm seeing a lot of jrs. stop playing once they reach a rating that they are satisfied with and it hurts them in the long run.... players need to play alot of tournament matches,. You cant be match tough playing 3-4 tournaments a year A player will not cut it at a high level with out a lot match experience. Ask any player that has actually played at a top level. they will tell you the same thing.
@@tomcruise3355 MSU and many universities ask for UTR on their player evaluation form. You don't get a look without an appropriate UTR level. msuspartans.com/documents/2018/8/22/Michigan_State_Spartans_Recruiting_Questionnaire.pdf
Ratings aside USTA event fees are way too high.. UTR is a bit more pocket friendly..
Remember when hawk-eye and replays were controversial, but immediately improved the quality of the line calls?
History doesn't repeat, it rhymes.
And this time UTR is our "hawk-eye" solution for many reasons, including catching some egregious league and tournament governance at the USTA public and private events ;)
Is it possible that the USTA is "too proud" to adopt UTR and wants to reinvent the wheel instead ... something they could have done decades ago but remained blind or professed ignorance of?
Why would the USTA want to further fragment, convolute, and confound rankings one more time, having done so in the past in a grand manner?
ITF was in Thailand for 2 months....in my town
UTR not used in the UK…we had ratings organised by the LTA. Now transferring to the WTN. Using one system worldwide makes sense to easily benchmark ability
Sorry, I don't think WTN (or LTA) could ever catch up.
Too little too late, given the adoption of UTR now.
UTR now has global adoption. LTA is exactly why things evolved to UTR and why adoption-traction is so strong.
Read about the history-evolution here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Tennis_Rating#History_of_Universal_Tennis_Rating
The ITF has basically ordered all national tennis associations to adopt WTN over UTR.
It's only a matter of time before the ITF blocks UTR from using It's tourney data to create It's ratings.
The ITA has also officially adopted WTN over UTR for use at all US College teams.
Personally I think UTR is more accurate than WTN, but they just can't beat the ITF which runs global tennis.
UTR focuses on the quality of the match, and WTN considers only wins. The UTR algorithm is much better than the WTN algorithm
UTR has been around 20 years??!! Seems like college coaches look at UTR first (oh, he's saying that now as I type), so perhaps URT wins out. It feels like the simplest to relate to. UTR tournaments used to be less expensive that USTA, so that was a plus. I don't know if that is still the case, since I have not coached juniors in several years.
This rating is to par amateur players, problem arise when people only want to play with people of the same level so that they can win
UTR had oracle backing and now Amazon so they have a decent head start.
That's why UTR now has global adoption. There's a reason why things evolved to UTR and why adoption-traction is so strong.
Read about the history-evolution here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Tennis_Rating#History_of_Universal_Tennis_Rating
This is only important for top juniors, D1 and the pros, the recreational world, this channel and the like don't have to worry about this silly stuff, don't take it seriously just have fun.
Actually, no.
UTR catches USTA "sandbaggers" and their USTA League organizers (sometimes head professionals or club managers) who routinely play their players at a lower level (one or two integer levels) to win more League matches.
The USTA ignores this corruption. Imagine what it would be like if we threw out the golf handicap system and tried this ;)
Just play the game--the cream always rises to the top! To win you need to play and be the last one standing no matter what system is being used.
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I say let's Make it one system stop complicating people's life.
UTR now has global adoption. These sentiments are exactly why things evolved to UTR and why adoption-traction is so strong.
Read about the history-evolution here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Tennis_Rating#History_of_Universal_Tennis_Rating
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VERY interesting. I play table tennis - the USATT has been using a ratings system for decades - not sure when it started, probably in the 1940s or 1950s, based on the one used in Chess. It's not just the professional players (darned few of those) or top players that have ratings, it's anyone who plays in a USATT sanctioned tournament. And it's DARNED USEFUL. When you compare major tournaments in the US to major tournaments in other countries, you'll notice the huge disparity in numbers - in other countries, tournaments are pretty much only for elite players, and attendance is quite small. In the US, they have ratings events in tournaments - say, for instance, the U-1000s, the U-1200s, all the way up to the U-2600s, besides the Men's and Women's Open events of course. You're allowed to play in your event and any of the higher events, but a player rated, say, 1544 can't play in the U-1400s. So in essence EVERYONE can play, from the 800-rated ranked beginner to the top ranked player in the country, and has a bracket they will be competitive in. So major tournaments will be in a huge hall, with 100+ tables and an attendance of a couple thousand. And people will stick around to the end to watch the final matches in the Opens. Yes, the ratings system has its flaws (people talk about "ratings bubbles" in certain parts of the country because the players there don't travel outside as much, and there's the problem of up-and-coming juniors with coaching - they solve that by adjusting their ratings upwards before calculating changes to their opponents' ratings after a tournament) but I've never come across anyone who doesn't think that having a ratings system at all is a bad thing. The problem, of course, is that this is restricted to the US. Foreign players who play in US tournaments do get ratings, but they're fairly far and few between. There was an effort to set up an international web-based Ratings Central, but you end up with national bubbles for the same reason - people don't travel overseas much to play in tournaments. ITTF has its own ratings system for International class players, but that's only for them (and, since men don't play against women at that level, the men's and women's ratings are unrelated to each other). Maintaining a ratings system like the USATT's is a huge effort - lots of data entry involved, and that's probably why it hasn't caught on outside the US to the extent it should have - it would really help in the promotion of grassroots participation in tournaments.
Incidentally, if you start a match and default, it's still counted as a loss and you will still lose points. If you lose to someone rated higher you probably won't lose any points, it's when you lose to someone rated lower that the losses occur.
That's why UTR now has global adoption. You are describing exactly why things evolved to UTR and why adoption-traction is so strong.
Read about the history-evolution here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Tennis_Rating#History_of_Universal_Tennis_Rating
@@fast-trackhack6637 There's still the problem of synchronizing ratings across countries. Unless you have numbers of players that regularly travel and play tournaments across boundaries you will eventually have ratings mismatches. There are probably ways to address this problem, of course, but it would mean occasional universal changes to ratings in specific areas.
@@iskandartaib UTR synchronizes because it is the defacto global standard for years. Using a USTA system they just endorsed for the USA is like trying to use something other than the internet.
It is just too little too late for the USTA to try to adopt a new system and call it international.
@@iskandartaib Actually that problem doesn't exist with UTR, only USTA has that problem. And the USTA is making it worse for their players now. Big blowback and unintended consequences given the fact that the USTA didn't adopt UTR long ago.
College coaches know if you dock matches
It's the same as taking a class and dropping the class before the marking period. That class doesn't count towards your grade.
No. Try that in a golf tournament or while playing on a sports team. You are disqualified and penalized.
People are fighting so they can control the coaching game!
No, the elite organizations (money, professionals, wealthy travel tennis families) have the most to lose because UTR is making tennis accessible, fair, and equitable ... like it never was in the past.
Just play the game--the cream always rises to the top! To win you need to play and be the last one standing no matter what system is being used.
UTR makes rankings, hence entry into local and regional tournaments more fair and accessible.
Prior to this ITF/USTA and other country systems often discriminated and favored elite travel tennis families (wealth).
@@fast-trackhack6637 usta has rankings which is based on results. So Im not sure what you are talking about
@@user-be5qg7mr1s USTA rewards gold stars to tennis travel families. The legacy point system has been obsolete for decades. It means nothing to the D1, D2, and D3 universities. And very little outside of the small private clubs. And nothing internationally compared to UTR which has been leading for a decade.
So why did the USTA ignore UTR for so long? Not invented here syndrome? Legacy compensation drives behavior? Other reasons!
UTR used USTA and other public tournament-league statistics. Why has the legacy USTA system been ignoring other legitimate competition results?
Why are more than half of the states in the USA using UTR for high school? And all universities?
Q.E.D.